01:18	Pretto	@now
01:18	ubottu	Pretto: Current time in Etc/UTC: August 05 2008, 00:18:16 - Next meeting: Community Council in 21 hours 41 minutes
02:06	pwnguin	@now Chicago
02:07	pwnguin	@now CST
* pwnguin reads harder
02:09	bazhang	@schedule
02:09	bazhang	ubottu is gone
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11:57	amachu	TheMuso, persia, elky , hi
11:57	persia	amachu: Good afternoon
11:57	TheMuso	amachu: Hey.
11:57	elky	evening
11:57	elky	who are we missing?
11:58	persia	lifeless: zakame, Belutz
11:58	elky	amachu, your internet was fine until you spoke!
11:58	TheMuso	lol
11:59	lifeless	hi
12:00	amachu	lifeless, hi
12:00	elky	right, is our contestant here? :Þ
12:00	amachu	mdamt, hi
12:00	mdamt	Hello all.
12:00	amachu	welcome everyone!
12:01	persia	mdamt: Good nick construction technique :)
12:01	mdamt	persia: :-)
12:01	amachu	so we have lifeless, elky, persia , TheMuso and amachu here?
12:01	amachu	Belutz?
* TheMuso is here.
12:01	amachu	zakame?
12:02	elky	he's not in the channel
12:02	lifeless	sorry for missing last week
12:02	lifeless	was jetlagged; week before was on a plane
12:02	elky	he  is online though
12:03	amachu	good, we have five among us
12:03	amachu	we will start
12:03	elky	mdamt, do you want to introduce yourself and what you do for Ubuntu? we can fill zakame in later if he comes
12:03	amachu	elky, indeed
12:03	amachu	mdamt, thats was a nice snap with babies :-)
12:04	amachu	mdamt, there?
12:04	mdamt	Right, so I am an Indonesian currently living in Helsinki Finland. Been in FOSS world since 1997. Been doing some work for Ubuntu Indonesia, administring the mailing list, also involved in BlankOn project as one of Ubuntu Indonesia project.
12:05	elky	possibly typing
12:05	mdamt	Mainly I work for upstream: GNOME and MAEMO which are used in Ubuntu and Ubuntu Mobile.
12:05	mdamt	So I guess that's all.
12:06	elky	mdamt, what ubuntu-specific stuff do you do?
12:06	persia	For Ubuntu Membership, we tend to look at contributions specifically to Ubuntu.
12:06	elky	zakame, will pastebin, second
12:06	zakame	cool
12:06	mdamt	For direcly Ubuntu project I also involved in Indonesian L10n in LP.
12:07	elky	zakame, http://pastebin.com/mdf5e41d
12:08	elky	mdamt, cool, how many strings have you translated (i hope this is correct translation terminology)
12:08	zakame	got it, thanks elky
12:08	mdamt	elky: I've never counted it. As many of the translations in LP also came from GNOME which I did with others.
12:09	persia	LP claims 381 for 7 Karma points, but it may not be complete.
12:09	elky	mdamt, so do you do all the admin for the mailing list?
12:10	mdamt	Yes, I do the id-ubuntu mailing list administration (also with others).
12:13	persia	mdamt: In your testimonials, I see comments about you being the driver behind BlankOn, and possibly planning work with Ubuntu Packaging: have you submitted any packaging work to Ubuntu so far?
12:14	mdamt	Not yet. But I have some on my list already. Probably after my vacation ends.
12:14	persia	mdamt: Did you bring a fan club to cheer for you at this meeting?
12:15	mdamt	All of them are missing :-)
* persia is done with questions
12:16	amachu	Belutz had earlier recognized mdamt contributions, couple of weeks back when iang and mdamt were present
12:16	elky	same. mdamt, i see you've done some good work, but im not personally seeing a substantial ubuntu-specific contribution yet. i'm giving a -1 here, and recommending you return after you've done some motu work
12:17	amachu	on 22-July-08
12:17	TheMuso	I agree with elky, but a +0 from me. You seem to be on the right track, but I think we need to see more from you in terms of sustained contributions.
12:17	mdamt	Right.
12:17	amachu	mdamt, remember I felt the same that day.
12:17	elky	amachu, the key is ubuntu-specific. im not comfortable on making someone a member of ubuntu because of their work on a derivative, any more than a debian person would want me a member of debian for my ubuntu work.
12:17	lifeless	+0, I concur with elky and themuso
12:18	e-jat	+1 for mdamt
12:18	lifeless	I think both upstream and downstream work are important - at at the project level we acknowledge that work
12:18	persia	mdamt: I'm also going to vote +0.  Positive points for what looks like good work with Inonesian localisation, and previous comments from Belutz.  Negative points for not getting more upstream, and not having lots of Ubuntu-specific stuff.
12:18	amachu	mdamt, would like to see more details in your wiki page, that shows references to contributions to Ubutu
12:19	lifeless	but for individual ubuntu membership it needs to be ubuntu-specfic stuff that we are acknowledging
12:19	zakame	+0: I see translations going way back to 2005, but I think mdamt can do more :)
12:19	amachu	elky, I agree
12:19	mdamt	Ok.
12:20	amachu	mdamt, +0 from me too
12:21	amachu	great to see your contributions upstreams.
12:21	elky	consider this an encouragement to do more for ubuntu! :)
12:21	amachu	please continue your good work, and hoping to see you back with a bang
12:22	mdamt	:-) Thanks all.
12:22	elky	we know you do good things!
12:22	e-jat	good luck mdamt !
12:22	elky	i think he's all we had, no?
12:23	amachu	elky, ?
12:23	elky	amachu, agenda-wise
12:23	amachu	yes
12:23	amachu	any thing to be shared
12:23	amachu	from anyone?
12:24	amachu	elky, persia, TheMuso, lifeless : ?
12:24	TheMuso	Not from me.
12:24	elky	probably encourage any countries not yet registered for Software Freedom Day to get registered and spread ubuntu on the most important free/libre open source software event of the year
12:24	persia	I've a vague sense that we ought somehow be coordinating with LoCos to drive more agenda items, but am unlikely to actually do anything about it personally.
12:24	elky	softwarefreedomday.org
12:25	elky	persia, i just make up my own ;)
12:26	amachu	elky, We plan to publish rms - Free Software Free Society on SFD
12:26	amachu	elky, I will do it, thanks for citing
12:26	amachu	persia, that gives me a vague idea too
12:26	elky	amachu, cool. try not to scare the little kids with that ;)
12:27	amachu	:-)
12:27	amachu	they have Big Buck Bunny to watch
12:27	amachu	;)
12:27	amachu	persia, but we need to..
12:28	amachu	persia, but for that we have to be more than Membership Board. Isn't it?
12:28	techno_freak	amachu, ta_IN("Free Software Free Society") ?
12:28	persia	amachu: Certainly.  I've just been operating in two-weeks-behind mode for long enough that I'm getting leery of taking new tasks, even when I have an idea that makes me want to do something.
12:28	elky	amachu, BBB is sooooo funny
12:28	amachu	techno_freak, yes
12:28	amachu	techno_freak, in Tamil
12:29	elky	we had it playing rotation at an expo here in sydney, and half of us kept getting distracted watching it instead of talking to people
12:29	techno_freak	amachu, kewl
12:29	persia	I'm not sure it's "More than membership board" to occasionally bug the LoCos to try to get people to do more and become members.  If any of us individually go beyond that, that's the individual's decision.
12:30	elky	persia, agree. we should keep an eye out for regionally-relevent things though
12:30	elky	i should have been bugging people to submit for Linux Conf Au more, but I've been slack
12:30	elky	CFP closes in 3 days
12:30	amachu	persia, personally we are doing that. hoping to see atleast two in months to come
12:31	persia	elky: Regionally relevant events, etc?
12:31	elky	persia, conferences in the region
12:32	elky	specifically ones which may have CFP where people can apply to talk about F/LOSS
12:33	persia	elky: That makes sense.  I'm not sure it's strictly RMB, but there ought be some wiki pages towards which interested parties can point.  The presentations can then go on their wiki pages, and we can review them when the presenters apply for membership.
12:34	elky	persia, i was thinking more for content sake. i'd love to hear more about the events that happen in the asia/oceania region. i generally only hear about them after they've happened, rarely before
12:35	amachu	persia, that would be a good idea
12:35	persia	elky: That too.  I'm just trying to stretch it to be RMB related :)
12:35	elky	persia, it's giving people ideas to help them, so sort of what you were saying
* elky thinks through the local-ish events happening/cfp'ing ...
12:36	persia	elky: That makes sense.  Want to put up the Events wiki pages, broken regionally?
12:36	elky	foss.in doesnt seem to have the 2009 page going yet
12:37	techno_freak	elky, they are still planning the event, will be out soon
12:37	elky	techno_freak, excellent
12:37	techno_freak	s/they/we/
12:37	elky	techno_freak, good to know :)
12:37	techno_freak	:)
12:38	techno_freak	elky, hope we can have you this year, we missed you last time :)
12:38	elky	techno_freak, it's so close to another event for me, which is sad :(
12:38	techno_freak	elky, ohh :(
12:38	elky	which i've already been accepted to talk at too
12:39	elky	we will see though, when the dates come out
12:39	techno_freak	:)
12:40	elky	do you know the dates?
12:40	techno_freak	elky, sometime around end of Nov or early December, depends upon availability of venue
12:41	elky	that part i knew. the conf i speak at is dec 3-5
12:41	techno_freak	elky, oh, will ask and confirm you :)
12:42	elky	persia, sorry missed your suggestion. a noticeboard wikipage would be good
12:42	persia	elky: Thanks :)
12:42	elky	people can add something they want us to mention
12:43	amachu	elky, persia, is that all?
12:43	elky	i believe so
12:43	persia	I'm done.
12:44	amachu	fine then, thank you every one for participating
12:44	elky	i think TheMuso and lifeless have been stolen by shinier stuff already
12:44	elky	+1 amachu :)
12:44	amachu	mdamt, hoping to see you back
12:44	elky	i trust we will
12:45	amachu	thank you and this time i have got an un-interrupted connectivity after a long time :-)
12:45	e-jat	long time ?
12:45	persia	Well, at least the entire length of a meeting: first time I've seen that :)
12:45	amachu	persia, yes.
12:46	elky	amachu, lets hope you did not just jinx yourself!
12:46	amachu	elky, ;)
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12:47	amachu	am leaving now, bye
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12:47	zakame	thanks ll
12:47	zakame	*all
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15:27	MianoSM9	.
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15:59	kirkland	[o]
15:59	Koon	o/
15:59	sommer	hey all
16:00	Koon	hey sommer !
16:00	Koon	who else is here for the server team meeting ?
16:00	pschulz01_	ping!
* kirkland <--------- that guy
16:02	Koon	OK, I'll do my best to replace the incredible mathiaz, who left for a hazardous trip accross Canada
16:02	zul	hello
16:02	Koon	ok, let's start !
16:02	Koon	#startmeeting
16:02	MootBot	Meeting started at 10:06. The chair is Koon.
16:02	MootBot	Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
16:02	jdstrand_	o/
16:03	Koon	Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
16:03	Koon	Previous meeting logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080729
16:03	Koon	[TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
16:03	MootBot	New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
16:03	Koon	We have two recorded ACTIONs in last meeting
16:04	Koon	kirkland to write a blog post about testing booting from a degraded raid array
16:04	kirkland	Koon: I have a draft, I'll publish today
16:04	Koon	kirkland: great !
16:04	kirkland	Koon: I set up my own wordpress account, and linked it to planet.ubuntu, so i'll just push it there myself
16:05	Koon	more server blogging, nice
16:05	Koon	the second action is nijaba's, not sure he is around
16:05	kirkland	Koon: I also have an Encrypted Private Dir blog post draft too
16:05	kirkland	Koon: I was waiting for the latest merge to make it into the archive, as a couple of scripts changed names
16:05	Koon	kirkland: ok.
16:05	kirkland	Koon: that happened overnight
* nijaba waves
16:06	Koon	nijaba to write up a question related to hw and submit it for review to the rest of the server team
16:06	Koon	nijaba: did you have the time to progress on that ?
16:06	nijaba	Koon: I am still waiting for the input from Intel on the subject
16:07	Koon	nijaba: ok
16:07	Koon	nijaba: keep us posted !
16:07	nijaba	I will :)
16:08	Koon	Let's review progress made on the specification listed on the Roadmap...
16:08	Koon	[TOPIC] Ubuntu VM builder
16:08	MootBot	New Topic:  Ubuntu VM builder
16:08	Koon	soren: around ?
16:08	soren	Yes, I am now. Sorry.
16:09	soren	I've stumbled a bit on a parted issue that I'm trying to get sorted out.
16:09	soren	When that's fixed, I shall be very close indeed to having Xen support in VMBuilder as well as KVM.
16:09	soren	Er..
16:09	soren	I mean, KVM as well as Xen support in VMBuilder. Not Xen support in KVM.
16:09	Koon	I seem to remember you wanted to write some very basic doc on how to get it / test it / run it
16:10	soren	Yes, that stalled a bit since there were a few things that were a bit in flux. Those should be sorted out very shortly after I get the parted bug sorted out.
16:10	Koon	OK, great!  We'll skip the specs assigned to mathiaz and go directly to...
16:10	Koon	[TOPIC] Mail server improvements
16:10	MootBot	New Topic:  Mail server improvements
16:11	Koon	ScottK is unfortunately not available but asked me to ask again for help on the MIRs
16:12	Koon	If anyone is interested in seeing ClamAV and Spamassassin in main, it's a good time to step up
16:12	jdstrand_	it occurred to me the other day that it would be really great if we could have a clamd and freshclam enforcing apparmor profile
16:12	mianosm1	That would be in the main repository (suggested/requested at the moment)?
16:12	Koon	jdstrand_: that sounds like a nice idea indeed
16:12	jdstrand_	with clamav's security history, this would go quite a ways to mitigating its security concerns
16:13	jdstrand_	as I may be one of the people reveiwing that bit, I may even require it :)
16:13	Koon	mianosm1: yes, see https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/clamav-spamassassin-in-main
16:13	jdstrand_	I just wrote one for myself the other day, so I'd be happy to help ScottK or whoever in that regard
16:13	kirkland	I believe that we need an AV in Main
16:14	Koon	jdstrand_: ok great.
16:14	Koon	[TOPIC] Boot Support for Degraded RAID
16:14	MootBot	New Topic:  Boot Support for Degraded RAID
16:14	Koon	kirkland: we already talked a bit about it in the actions
16:15	Koon	anything more ?
16:15	kirkland	Koon: no additional progress....  I'm going to work on a grub patch this week
16:15	Koon	kirkland: ok.
16:15	Koon	[TOPIC] Encrypted ~/Private Directory in Each User's Home
16:15	MootBot	New Topic:  Encrypted ~/Private Directory in Each User's Home
16:16	kirkland	Koon: I will be publishing a blog post today calling for testers
16:16	Koon	ok.
16:16	kirkland	Koon: this item is ready for heavy duty testing
16:16	kirkland	Koon: it has been promoted to main
16:16	kirkland	Koon: and kees sponsored a merge yesterday, where I added a bunch of manpages
16:16	kirkland	Koon: I'm ready for testers!
16:17	Koon	me too, but we'll come to that in a moment ;)
16:17	Koon	[TOPIC] Migrate new installs and upgrades of client and server packages to use SSL v3 or TLS
16:17	MootBot	New Topic:  Migrate new installs and upgrades of client and server packages to use SSL v3 or TLS
16:17	Koon	is my favorite Ante here ?
16:18	Koon	apparently not, let's move on
16:18	Koon	[TOPIC] Ubuntu Manpage Repository
16:18	MootBot	New Topic:  Ubuntu Manpage Repository
16:18	Koon	Dustin strikes again
16:19	kirkland	Koon: good news on that front too...  Kees re-reviewed it again, and it fully passed his audit, full support from him on it.
16:19	kirkland	Koon: I have an open RT with Canonical IS to take over hosting it
16:19	kirkland	Koon: I set a loose deadline of end-of-month
16:19	kirkland	Koon: elmo is on it.
16:20	Koon	sounds great !
* nijaba hopes elmo is quicker on this one than on the survey server...
16:20	kirkland	:-/
16:21	Koon	[TOPIC] Review ServerGuide for Intrepid
16:21	MootBot	New Topic:  Review ServerGuide for Intrepid
16:21	Koon	sommer: ?
16:21	sommer	finished the Kerberos section, and it's ready for review: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/kerberos.html
16:22	sommer	I think that's the last of the big updates for intrepid :)
16:22	Koon	ok, so you welcome reviewers now (as always)
16:23	sommer	absolutely, the more the merrier
16:23	Koon	that reminds me... I've a couple of likewise-open fixes to push to you
* nealmcb suddenly remembers what time zone he's in....
16:23	sommer	Koon: cool, just let me know
16:23	Koon	nealmcb: \o/
16:24	Koon	sommer: on the AD part. I will
16:24	Koon	ok, that's all for the specs, I think, let me know if I forgot something
16:25	Koon	[TOPIC] Call for likewise-open update testing
16:25	MootBot	New Topic:  Call for likewise-open update testing
16:25	Koon	OK, so I've been working on likewise-open updates for Intrepid
16:25	Koon	there is test branch up at Likewise with what should become the next version
16:25	Koon	(>4.1.0)
16:26	Koon	I've been packaging that, there is a lot of nice fixes
16:26	Koon	but also potential for nice regressions ;)
16:26	Koon	so we'll need some widespread testing before I can push that new version anywhere near main
16:27	Koon	A very fresh version is currently building on my PPA
16:27	nijaba	Koon: EtienneG is working on a WP on the subject, please feel free to feed him news and I am sure he would be a good tester :)
16:27	Koon	https://launchpad.net/~tcarrez/+archive
16:27	Koon	likewise-open - 4.1.0.2956-0ubuntu1~ppa2
16:28	Koon	ivoks :o/
16:28	ivoks	hi
16:28	Koon	I've tested that domain join, leave, authentication works correctly, and I already patched two regressions
16:29	Koon	I'm especially interested in regressions, since that version won't solve all existing bugs (even if it solves most of them)
16:29	Koon	Anyone having been in contact with likewise-open in hardy and wanting to test in intrepid ?
16:30	sommer	Koon: I should be able to give it a test this weekend
16:30	sommer	if not sooner
16:30	Koon	sommer: that's great !
16:31	Koon	I'll do some more thorough testing on the very fresh ppa2 version tomorrow. Just take whatever is the freshest in my PPA at that time
16:31	Koon	let's move on
16:31	sommer	Koon: do you need the gui part tested as well as the cli?
16:32	Koon	sommer: yes
16:32	Koon	I found one regression on the GUI (a missing icon)
16:32	jdstrand_	a
16:32	Koon	not sure there is much more regression potential there... but one never knows
16:33	Koon	[TOPIC] Open Discussion
16:33	MootBot	New Topic:  Open Discussion
16:33	Koon	macd sent an email to ubuntu-server ML asking for one more MOTU ack for NeilW's passenger package to progress onthe RubyOnRails spec
16:34	Koon	whoever is MOTU, has some free time and interest in Ruby call help him
16:34	Koon	s/call/can
16:34	Koon	anyone else has a subject / item / beer to share with the group ?
16:36	pschulz01	I would just like to thank you guys for all your efforts...
16:36	sommer	Koon: have you tried creating a samba share after joining a domain with likewise?
16:36	sommer	Koon: just wondering if we need a AD integration section in the samba chapter when likewise does such a good job?
16:37	nealmcb	soren: At OSCON I went to a talk by nat friedmanon that demo'd SUSE's appliance building web site - very impressive....  but it was still in a closed alpha or beta   http://en.oreilly.com/oscon2008/public/schedule/detail/4727
16:37	Koon	sommer: yes, with mixed results (I seem to remeber a superfluous password query)
16:38	nijaba	nealmcb: yeah, I chatted with him and Guy Lunardi on the same subject. We are doing very similar stuff, except that they are not planning to release their web based source code AFAIK
16:38	sommer	Koon: mmm... I was just wanting to make sure that permissions and stuff worked using AD users
16:39	sommer	Koon: I'll do some more testing with your new package version, thanks
16:39	Koon	sommer: there are a few important fixes, one of them is being able to remove likewise-open while a domain is joined without nuking your system
16:39	Koon	one other is the service not starting after a reboot issue
16:39	nijaba	nealmcb: moreover, their supported juice (not the openSuse one) requires an activation code on a per parter basis
16:39	Koon	and the last one being a conflict with the current samba in intrepid
16:40	nealmcb	nijaba: too bad.  mainly I was thinking the slides would be of interest and the feature set they target is worth considering
16:41	nijaba	nealmcb: sure, they are. I did not get their slides, did you?
16:41	nealmcb	they're liking kvm more and more also
16:41	Koon	[TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
16:41	MootBot	New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
16:41	Koon	same place, same time, next week ?
16:42	Koon	(mathiaz should be back!)
16:42	ivoks	sure
16:42	nealmcb	nijaba: I haven't seen them yet
* nijaba will be in vacation next week
* ivoks is at the vacation right now :)
16:42	nealmcb	the slides should have been up on the web last week as I understand it
* nealmcb is also vacationing
16:42	Koon	my vacation starts next Wednesday so I should be there
16:42	sommer	no fair :(
16:43	nijaba	ivoks: I'll be in the mountains with no laptop/network access, not even gsm :(
16:43	nealmcb	Irvine - classic sunny california
16:43	Koon	Cassis - classic sunny French Riviera
16:43	ivoks	nijaba: uff... french alps?
16:43	nealmcb	and next week in Flagstaff AZ - and I'll be here....
* nijaba will be in Yosemite if it has not burned before...
16:43	Koon	Thanks all for coming !
16:44	nealmcb	hmmm - oops - maybe not - somewhere in New Mexico....
16:44	nijaba	ivoks: yosemite: california
* nealmcb will ping nat for the slides
16:44	nijaba	thanks nealmcb
16:44	nijaba	thanks for hosting the meeting Koon
16:45	nealmcb	nice job
16:45	sommer	thanks Koon, later on all
16:45	kirkland	thanks Koon
16:45	ivoks	later all
16:45	Koon	#endmeeting
16:45	MootBot	Meeting finished at 10:49.
16:45	nealmcb	quick meeting!
16:45	Koon	nealmcb: I like it quick ;)
16:45	Koon	...
16:45	emgent	@schedule rome
16:45	ubottu	emgent: Schedule for Europe/Rome: 06 Aug 00:00: Community Council | 06 Aug 22:00: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 14:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 16:00: Ubuntu Java Team | 08 Aug 02:00: Americas Board | 08 Aug 06:00: Ubuntu MOTU
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19:52	Myrtti	@now Helsinki
19:52	ubottu	Myrtti: Current time in Europe/Helsinki: August 05 2008, 21:52:25 - Next meeting: Community Council in 3 hours 7 minutes
19:53	Seveas	@hug Myrtti
19:53	Myrtti	meh.
19:54	Myrtti	I got UTC and BST mixed up
20:03	bazhang	@now Taipei
20:03	ubottu	bazhang: Current time in Asia/Taipei: August 06 2008, 03:03:04 - Next meeting: Community Council in 2 hours 56 minutes
20:03	Myrtti	bazhang: GO TO SLEEP
* Myrtti pats bazhang's tush and points bed
20:04	bazhang	too late Myrtti :)
20:04	Myrtti	rockabye baaaby on a tree tooooopp
20:04	bazhang	:)
20:04	bazhang	oh wait is that sev?
=== Rinchen-sprintin is now known as Rinchen-sprint
20:09	Seveas	Rinchen-sprint, "Sprintchen"?
20:10	Rinchen-sprint	hehe that's me
* bazhang waves to Seveas
20:11	nellery	@schedule Vancouver
20:11	ubottu	nellery: Schedule for America/Vancouver: 05 Aug 15:00: Community Council | 06 Aug 13:00: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 05:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 07:00: Ubuntu Java Team | 07 Aug 17:00: Americas Board | 07 Aug 21:00: Ubuntu MOTU
=== stefan_ is now known as der-captain-hh
20:34	Myrtti	meh.
20:41	dennda	@schedule berlin
20:41	ubottu	dennda: Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 06 Aug 00:00: Community Council | 06 Aug 22:00: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 14:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 16:00: Ubuntu Java Team | 08 Aug 02:00: Americas Board | 08 Aug 06:00: Ubuntu MOTU
=== arualavi_ is now known as arualavi
=== afflux is now known as plopperpalappipl
=== plopperpalappipl is now known as afflux
21:59	pwnguin	@schedule chicago
21:59	ubottu	pwnguin: Schedule for America/Chicago: 05 Aug 17:00: Community Council | 06 Aug 15:00: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 07:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 09:00: Ubuntu Java Team | 07 Aug 19:00: Americas Board | 07 Aug 23:00: Ubuntu MOTU
22:01	Burgundavia	@schedule vancouver
22:01	ubottu	Burgundavia: Schedule for America/Vancouver: 05 Aug 15:00: Community Council | 06 Aug 13:00: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 05:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 07:00: Ubuntu Java Team | 07 Aug 17:00: Americas Board | 07 Aug 21:00: Ubuntu MOTU
22:02	popey	moo
22:02	Technoviking	super-moo
22:03	Seveas	mootastic
22:03	Technoviking	doing two meetings at once (one in RL, one in irc), may be distracted
22:04	Seveas	@now
22:04	ubottu	Seveas: Current time in Etc/UTC: August 05 2008, 21:04:00 - Next meeting: Community Council in 55 minutes
22:04	Seveas	meeting is in an hour :)
22:04	mdke	evening
22:04	Technoviking	doh
22:04	mdke	eh?
22:04	sabdfl	evening all
22:04	popey	it says 21:00 UTC on the wiki
22:04	mdke	meeting is now
22:05	mdke	popey: right
22:05	Seveas	ah, fridge is off
22:05	mdke	Seveas: when I looked at the fridge calendar earlier today, it was right
22:05	sabdfl	who's present, do we have quorum?
22:05	mdke	yeah, it's right - http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1550
22:06	Technoviking	here, kinda:)
22:06	Seveas	bot's broken then
22:06	mdke	elmo and Burgundavia are due, I think
22:06	Technoviking	elmo just popped in and out
* Burgundavia is here
22:07	sabdfl	ok, then let's begin, elmo will have scrollback
22:07	sabdfl	mdke: you're up
22:08	mdke	sabdfl: I believe that the first two items were discussed at a past meeting, although i wasn't around
22:08	sabdfl	ok, we're all agreed on your LP lists item
22:09	sabdfl	i can raise the matter again with the LP developers
22:09	mdke	I'm happy that doesn't need further discussion
22:09	sabdfl	have you noticed an improvement since this was discussed publicly?
22:09	sabdfl	i think encouraging unofficial lists to be on LP is sensible, because it will make it easier to migrate them to being "official" later
22:09	mdke	sabdfl: I haven't been paying close attention; but I saw that LP lists are still being recommended around the place. I have been meaning for some time to followup on your email and discuss it with jorge/jono
22:10	mdke	yes, agreed on the unofficial bit
22:10	sabdfl	ok, i'll start a new thread
22:10	sabdfl	could you turn this text into a more official statement from the CC, and put it on the mailing lists page?
22:10	mdke	sabdfl: sure, let me follow up on your last email and we'll take it forward from there
22:11	sabdfl	i'll start a new thread to shotgun and make sure we've got coverage of LP senior devs as well as ops
22:11	mdke	:)
22:12	mdke	what is the status of item 2 (Danish Team as legal entity)?
22:12	mdke	that was also discussed in the past, I think
22:12	sabdfl	it's waiting from a response from me
22:13	sabdfl	i can't think of a good specific reason to say no, other than that it's not worked well in the past, elsewhere
22:13	sabdfl	or rather, it has caused problems elsewhere, for Jane and others at Canonical
22:13	sabdfl	because, when things go wrong, we feel obliged to step in and help
22:13	Mez	just a quick interruption, the bot has been advertising the time of this for 11pm BST for some reason....
22:13	mdke	I'm pretty sceptical about legal entities as well, myself. Probably comes of being a lawyer, but I think the variety of legal systems is always going to cause issues
22:13	sabdfl	but, in this case, the guys seem to have worked through many of the issues
22:13	sabdfl	indeed
22:14	Myrtti	merh, where are we on the agenda?
22:14	mdke	having said that, I think that without a strong central foundation for raising or distributing funds within the community, this sort of need will keep arising within local teams, it's going to be difficult to stop that
22:14	popey	Myrtti: dk legal entity
22:15	sabdfl	fundraising isn't the driver in this particular case
22:15	Myrtti	mailing list issue went already?
22:15	sabdfl	we do have the Ubuntu Foundation
22:15	sabdfl	Myrtti: yes
22:15	Burgundavia	does it exist as a legal entity?
22:15	pwnguin	do we have the ubuntu foundation?
22:15	Burgundavia	and is it a registered charity?
22:15	Seveas	sabdfl, the fr/de verein is working well, isn't it?
22:15	sabdfl	yes, in the Isle of Man
22:15	sabdfl	Seveas: see my clarification
22:15	mdke	sabdfl: but as I understand it, only as a trust, and not an active foundation in the same way as the Gnome foundation
22:16	sabdfl	mdke: yes
22:16	Burgundavia	what is the Wikimedia foundation doing for stuff like this? I know they have worked through a bunch of the cross border stuff
22:16	Myrtti	hm, I seem to have bumped into at appropriate time
22:16	sabdfl	what sorts of things would be handled in a foundation, that aren't handled by Canonical?
22:16	Myrtti	we in Finland are having same thoughts
22:17	pwnguin	sabdfl: nouveau?
22:17	sabdfl	pwnguin: what about it, specifically?
22:17	Myrtti	as a legal entity we'd be entitled to receive donations tax free
22:17	sabdfl	Myrtti: yes, but it can also create as much in the way of trouble as opportunity
22:17	Seveas	sabdfl, fundraising, sponsoring for hosting, sponsoring for releaseparties (in the ubuntu-nl case)
22:18	Myrtti	sabdfl: I'm very aware of it - very, very very aware
22:18	mdke	sabdfl: it would provide a way for non-Canonical provided funds to be allocated and distributed in a transparent way, and specific teams (local teams) might be able to fund raise for their own activities
22:18	pwnguin	i spoke with a nouveau pledge drive guy, and he suggested that the money could have been useful but none of the non profits were able to help them for various reasons; this has changed some
22:18	sabdfl	mdke: it's not transparent by legal registration
22:18	popey	pwnguin: last i heard nouveau were awash with cash and needed developers more than money
22:18	mdke	sabdfl: I know
22:18	sabdfl	the transparency is a function of how well the specific individuals run the org
22:19	pwnguin	popey: from who?
22:19	sabdfl	and history suggests there's quite a wide std deviation in that regard!
22:19	popey	i dont recall, sorry
22:19	pwnguin	i spoke with marcheu in writing an article on the subject, and they seem to get by mainly without money
22:19	ompaul	sabdfl, a set of guidelines on what is required to maintain the backing for the use of the name, something almost that would have an audit trail and be open to audit?
22:20	sabdfl	nouveau is not really related to this discussion
22:20	pwnguin	true
22:20	sabdfl	ompaul: yes, i think that's what we concluded last time
22:20	mdke	anyway, I don't really have a feel for whether if there was an active central foundation, that would solve the local teams' needs; we should probably start by asking them, if it's a genuine option
22:20	sabdfl	that we would let this group use the ubuntu name if they reported regularly and transparently on their status
22:21	sabdfl	and if they remained receptive to the CC
22:21	Myrtti	luckily in Finland we already have Finnish Linux User Group as registered nonprofit
22:21	Burgundavia	so should we encourage the loco teams to piggyback on other non-profits if possible?
22:21	Myrtti	don't need to create a new one and also allows natural coworking with the people from other distro communities
22:21	sabdfl	indeed
22:22	mdke	Burgundavia: definitely, if that can solve the problem.
22:22	sabdfl	i would be delighted to have a well-run org registered, with public accounts, AGM's, and diligent reporting
22:22	mdke	possibly certain local teams feel that they can't get away without a locally registered entity. If that happens, and if we are clear that the reasons are right, and it's been done correctly, it's difficult to object
22:22	Myrtti	we did a great project again last weekend at Assembly demoparty, though this year there wasn't that many people from other distros helping with helpdesking the Linux users among the 5000+ visitors
22:23	sabdfl	Myrtti: cool - i've wanted to go to Assembly for a couple of years!
22:23	Burgundavia	so if they want to use the name, they have to a be a registered charity? (strawman for discussion)
22:23	sabdfl	anyhow - here's the guidance
22:23	Myrtti	sabdfl: was planning to invite you to speak next year
22:23	Myrtti	:-P
22:23	sabdfl	if we have confidence in a loco team's standing, and they make a case for a legal entity, and we know who is on the hook, and they commit to regular transparent accounting and reporting to the CC, then +1
22:23	Myrtti	(as you'd prolly bring cd's [we ran out of them on Thursday])
22:24	sabdfl	i will ask Jono to maintain a list of the approved ones, and a schedule for their reporting
22:24	sabdfl	and we will recall the right to the name if the reporting falls behind
22:24	sabdfl	this has to stay rigorous, or we *know* it will turn into a mess
22:24	Burgundavia	by reporting, we mean the legal reporting any charity has to do?
22:24	mdke	I agree 100%
22:25	mdke	sabdfl: checking the case for each team and so on is going to be time intensive; there are often teams which will think they need it, but actually don't. Perhaps the loco council can help us with those tasks
22:25	mdke	maybe by providing an initial filter for applications
22:25	sabdfl	ok
22:25	sabdfl	does jono run the loco council?
22:26	popey	define run
22:26	Burgundavia	should be document these bits anywhere so that we don't get spurious requests?
22:26	sabdfl	popey: chairwoman?
22:26	mdke	sabdfl: jono isn't on the loco council, afaik
22:26	popey	he isn't
22:26	sabdfl	ah
22:27	sabdfl	then a second mail will be required, rather than tacking this onto the one i am already writing to jono :-)
22:27	popey	we do seek advice from him on matters, he does give us some direction
22:27	sabdfl	popey: ok, ok, i can take a hint
22:27	sabdfl	i'll mail you then ;-)
22:27	popey	bugger
22:27	mdke	I think that Jono and the loco council can definitely provide a useful filter for such applications, if they are willing, and have the capacity
22:29	sabdfl	popey: keeping track of the reporting is something that will be important to Canonical, because it's a trademark matter, i'm happy to delegate it to the Loco council if they are happy to commit to doing as rigorous a job there as they do elsewhere when firing on all cylinders
22:29	sabdfl	fairy nuff?
22:29	popey	feel free to fire it our way, but the other guys need to speak up too
22:30	sabdfl	ok. will mail, let's mosey on in the agenda
22:30	mdke	we'll see how it goes; if it is becoming a problem then we can easily modify the procedure
22:30	popey	i have concerns, but I'll attack that via mail
22:30	mdke	ok
22:30	mdke	is cody here?
22:31	boredandblogging	he is in -news, but not in here, I pinged him
22:31	mdke	fabian?thanks
* Mez pinged him too
22:31	mdke	whoops
22:31	mdke	hi cody-somerville, you're up
22:31	cody-somerville	Hello
* cody-somerville smiles.
22:32	sabdfl	roll on cody-somerville
22:32	sabdfl	sec
22:33	sabdfl	is Acelin here for the interface item?
* cody-somerville blames the bot for being late. (;] Mez)
22:33	sabdfl	Salane?
22:33	mdke	damn, sorry I didn't spot the interface item
22:33	sabdfl	ok, w.r.t. the UI
22:33	sabdfl	i've encouraged salane to work with kwwii
22:33	sabdfl	who has a mandate to lead the artwork and styling
22:34	sabdfl	we are building a usability and design team at Canonical
22:34	sabdfl	and anybody who has a professional interest in this should definitely apply there
22:34	sabdfl	as always, we will try to engage with the community as effectively as possible
22:34	mdke	ok. it's not an issue for us, I don't think. If there are issues with the art team's procedures as suggested we need a bit more detail about it
22:34	sabdfl	there was a discussion the other day about ensuring that there's at least one community-generated theme
22:34	sabdfl	however
22:35	sabdfl	historically, art collaboration has been near zero
22:35	sabdfl	we see a lot of folks showing up with no context, and insisting that there will be no progress unless *their* theme ships
22:35	pwnguin	the heron background was a collaboration, no?
22:35	Mez	sabdfl, you should speak to seele about HCI/usability stuff - she does a great job in KDEland
22:35	sabdfl	i don't know about heron, i think kwwii lead that
22:36	sabdfl	Mez: that's quite different to art, though related of course
22:36	pwnguin	a rather vocal critic of the art team direction gave a history of the backgroud; I can't say how accurate it is
22:36	sabdfl	pwnguin: there are only vocal critics of the art team
22:36	pwnguin	he
22:36	Mez	I was referring to <sabdfl> we are building a usability and design team at Canonical
22:36	sabdfl	ah, thanks Mez
22:36	Mez	(slow at typing on here)
22:37	sabdfl	i live in hope of a good leader emerging there, but have been unable to engineer that myself
22:37	sabdfl	i think we will have to have a strong leader who is full time, and open to contributions
22:37	sabdfl	so, for example, if we do 80% of the icons, be open to contributions of another 20%
22:37	sabdfl	but having lots of people submit their own 10% just ain't progress
22:38	sabdfl	any other commentary from the CC?
22:38	mdke	not here
22:39	sabdfl	going, going...
22:39	Burgundavia	sounds good to me
22:39	sabdfl	gone. Xubuntu, you're up
22:39	cody-somerville	Back in March, we held the first of a series of meetings that have involved a wide diversity of interested parties from many different backgrounds and group.
22:40	cody-somerville	The goal of these meetings have been to ultimately develop a document that describes a strategy for the Xubuntu project.
22:40	cody-somerville	It was felt that such a document would enable Xubuntu to become a sustainable and healthy project.
22:41	sabdfl	hmm... less preamble, sooner content for the win
22:41	cody-somerville	I'm proud to say that I'm ready to share the fruit of that labour and ask for official recognition and ratification of the document by the Community Council.
22:41	sabdfl	cody-somerville: what does Xfce4 upstream think of this?
22:41	cody-somerville	sabdfl, They're very encouraged.
22:42	sabdfl	i ask because it's very important to have the support of upstream, and preferably, have them actively participating
22:42	sabdfl	even if compromises sometimes need to be made
22:42	sabdfl	"Xubuntu is not specifically targeted to Xfce4 enthusiasts, as projects/software being hosted by the Xfce4 project or associating (officially or unofficially) with Xfce4 are not guaranteed inclusion in Xubuntu over other applications which may be a better fit for Xubuntu."
22:42	sabdfl	this could put you at odds with them
22:43	cody-somerville	sabdfl, We had several developers join us at our meetings.
22:43	sabdfl	like, for example, shipping FF instead of epiphany gives some folks heartburn, which we actively work to alleviate
* cody-somerville nods.
22:43	sabdfl	i think being willing to compromise some if useful, but it's really important to have some buy-in upstream for that
22:44	cody-somerville	At https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Intrepid/StrategyDocument#head-c7fb09a1a0ff5ac3d53e1f64a1bbd51aad7e20c1 we identify the core components that are considered the identity of Xubuntu
22:44	cody-somerville	Those components are also the core components of the Xfce4 project.
22:45	sabdfl	foci, there's a one-word contradiction for you ;-)
* Myrtti shudders at seeing xfce4-terminal
22:46	mdke	it's a long document, I don't feel able to fully do it justice now, but there are some big picture things we can talk about
22:46	mdke	i think a close analysis will need a few days digesting it
* cody-somerville nods.
22:47	sabdfl	the profiles idea is nice, as a formal testing goal during the cycle
22:47	mdke	I'm interested mainly in the governance aspect, given that we're the CC and the Xubuntu community needs to have some scope for determining its own goals
22:47	mdke	I'd really like to see a Council evolving sooner rather than later
22:47	sabdfl	agreed
22:47	mdke	and I'd like to see its relationship with the CC more clearly defined, as we discussed privately cody-somerville
22:48	sabdfl	also, we had a bad start with the irc council and xubuntu leaders apparently in conflict unnecessarily
22:48	cody-somerville	Yes.
22:48	sabdfl	i'd like some reassurance that sort of thing won't recur
22:48	mdke	cody-somerville: do you envisage that the project leader would continue to exist as a role even after a Council is in place?
22:49	mdke	deal with one topic at a time, sorry to cross over with sabdfl's question
22:49	cody-somerville	I'd like to hear from the CC how they'd like to see the Xubuntu leadership interact with other governance bodies.
22:49	sabdfl	imo, it does help to have a designated chair, or other sort of arbiter, in a project like this
22:50	sabdfl	so i'm not opposed to that role, as long as it's part of the council
* cody-somerville nods.
22:50	mdke	sabdfl: it would be unique, I think - or do other Council's have such a role?
=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Community Council | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Aug 20:00 UTC: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 08 Aug 00:00 UTC: Americas Board | 08 Aug 04:00 UTC: Ubuntu MOTU
22:50	sabdfl	the CC would typically nominate folks to the project council
22:51	sabdfl	Ryan Troy was the first chair of the Forums Council, Seveas the first of the IRC council, iirc
* cody-somerville nods.
22:51	Seveas	(IRC council is currently without chair afaik)
22:51	Mez	sabdfl, though the IRCC has no lead atm)
22:52	sabdfl	yes
22:52	Mez	(though we are sorting out nominations for new people on the IRCC to fill up now-vacant spots)
22:52	mdke	cody-somerville: well, from my point of view, the Xubuntu Council would be treated the same way as other team councils that exist, described on CommunityCouncil/Delegation
22:52	sabdfl	i see no reason for it to be done differently
22:52	cody-somerville	sabdfl, mdke: Agreed.
22:53	mdke	if issues cannot be resolved by the team council, they can be delegated to us as usual
22:53	sabdfl	i think the doc is well constructed, though it needs a bit of an editorial pass for style
22:53	mdke	ditto if an inter-team issue arises, as with the recent irc issue (although as sabdfl said, better if such issues don't arise at all)
22:54	mdke	s/delegated/escalated
* cody-somerville nods.
22:55	cody-somerville	Thus far Xubuntu has been more autonomous then say Kubuntu. Is it preferred for Xubuntu to be more closely tied in?
22:55	mdke	Kubuntu is pretty autonomous
* cody-somerville nods.
22:55	cody-somerville	Okay.
22:55	mdke	from a governance point of view, anyway, we haven't really intervened at all
22:56	mdke	at least since I've been on the CC
22:56	sabdfl	it's nice to see the proposed community structure
22:56	sabdfl	good work, cody-somerville
22:56	sabdfl	and team
22:57	mdke	yes, good job
22:57	mdke	if the document can be made a bit shorter, that would be good
22:57	sabdfl	says very clearly how things are to be organised
22:57	cody-somerville	:]
22:57	cody-somerville	sabdfl, thank you
22:57	mdke	a small point, when you say "this team is owned by the Xubuntu Council", you might say "this team reports to the Xubuntu Council" (i understand that you're referring to the LP team structure, but it sounds a little autocratic)
22:58	cody-somerville	<g>
22:58	mdke	where do we go from here? can we deal with the detail of the document and/or points of style by email?
22:58	sabdfl	some of the code of conduct stuff isn't needed, it's inherited from Ubuntu
22:59	cody-somerville	Okay.
22:59	mdke	any questions from Burgundavia, Technoviking and elmo?
23:00	Technoviking	mdke none here, look good to me with the comments made
23:00	sabdfl	cody-somerville: this is a very good start. i would strip out pieces that are inherited from Ubuntu, like the CoC guidance (you can say that this project is as much subject to the CoC as any other in ubuntu)
* cody-somerville nods.
23:00	sabdfl	i would also reiterate the importance of upstream support
* cody-somerville nods.
23:00	sabdfl	would be disappointed to hear that upstream wasn't consulted on a major component decision, for example, and was upset
23:01	cody-somerville	sabdfl, Agreed.
23:01	sabdfl	the pieces that talk about upstream relations, bug tracking etc are excellent
23:01	Burgundavia	not from me
23:01	sabdfl	+1 from me
23:01	sabdfl	Burgundavia: not? or none?
23:01	Burgundavia	+1 from me
23:01	Technoviking	+1 here
23:02	elmo	sorry, I came in late due to /topic ambush, I'll have to abstain till I can catch up
23:03	sabdfl	ok, Planet
23:03	Burgundavia	ah, Planet
* cody-somerville has a question.
23:03	sabdfl	are magicfab and/or \sh here?
23:03	sabdfl	cody-somerville: go ahead?
23:03	Mez	\sh doesnt seem to be
23:03	mdke	before we start planet I should point out that as far as policy questions go we have an approved policy document, so probably we can leave big picture issues about "what is planet for?" aside and concentrate on the specific issue
23:04	cody-somerville	Just to clarify, the CC would like me to bring the document back for a second confirmation after making edits based on the suggestions given above?
23:04	mdke	(ref - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntuEditorialPolicy)
23:05	mdke	cody-somerville: I think we can do it by email, that gives us more time to digest it carefully; subject to what others think
23:05	LaserJock	mdke: just a quick question, that text is not on Planet Ubuntu, is that spec not implemented?
23:05	pwnguin	I believe magicfab is at a conference and cannot make it today
23:06	mdke	LaserJock: yes, that's correct. I have an rt open about it though so it will be implemented in due course
23:06	LaserJock	mdke: ah, ok. thanks for that clarification
23:07	Mez	to me it seems like the original issue was over the "wtf" in the title?
23:07	mdke	Mez: I think it is the reference to masturbation in the blog text
23:08	mdke	although I'm not 100% sure about what that actually means
23:08	pwnguin	from what ive gathered its about both
23:08	Mez	mdke, me either re-reading it...
23:08	mdke	in the absence of Fabian / Stephan, should we discuss the specific complaint or postpone that until they can attend?
23:08	Mez	I didnt sot that before
23:09	mdke	there is a general issue we could discuss - to whom should complaints about specific posts on Planet be directed?
23:09	mdke	they are rare enough that I'd say the CC is probably the appropriate place, what do others think?
23:10	pwnguin	i think if CC is willing to play dispute resolution we'll be better off for it
23:10	Technoviking	mdke: I say the CC, this is only the second time in over a year
23:10	Burgundavia	I don't see the need for anything else at the current moment
23:10	sabdfl	i'm trying to decide if my dislike of the post is personal, or professional
23:10	mdke	sabdfl: rofl
23:10	mdke	Technoviking: nod
23:10	pwnguin	but there's some sort of failure here if neither party attends
23:11	mdke	pwnguin: complaints can be discussed by email if necessary
23:11	Mez	The thing is here, is that I personally hear a lot of complaints regarding the "family friendly" part of the IRC Guidelines.
23:11	Technoviking	sabdfl: agree, I'm not offend by it personally, but it is not the image of Ubuntu I want to project
23:12	popey	maybe the planet should have digg-style buttons so people can voice their opinion easily without typing reply blogs fully of vitriol :)
23:12	Mez	This is the same thing really.. and a judgement here... sets a precedent
23:13	Technoviking	popey: Digg = Fail
23:13	LaserJock	would it help if the CC did ratify a Planet Code of Conduct?
23:13	popey	Technoviking: it was a joke :)
23:13	LaserJock	the CoC is helpful in general, but perhaps a version specifically targeted to Planet would be useful
23:14	pwnguin	what would it say?
23:14	mdke	LaserJock: I think the regular code of conduct deals with it ok; I'm reluctant to have too many documents like that around
23:14	Burgundavia	much like the forums specific one?
23:14	mdke	the CoC's power is in its simplicity
23:14	Mez	mdke, there is a LOT of wiggle room in the CoC though
23:14	pwnguin	good
23:14	Flannel	Mez: that's not necessarily a bad thing.
23:14	mdke	Mez: that's intentional
23:15	Technoviking	popey: I know:)
23:15	popey	ah, thought the humor sensor was on the blink :)
23:15	LaserJock	sure, but in areas where there are particular issues, perhaps the wriggle room needs clarity
23:15	mdke	but the planet policy document kinda deals with these issues, I think
23:15	LaserJock	mdke: indeed
23:15	mdke	like the bit which sabdfl wrote about "By and large, we take a "liberal Western" view of matters moral. That means we don't blush too much when sex is discussed, though we prefer to keep it practical, to keep personal preferences private, and never to criticize or belittle others on gender or sexuality grounds."
23:15	Mez	mdke, except when it comes down to making a judgement in respect to something like this... if you're in the wiggle room, then any judgement is going to cause issues with people disagreeing...
23:15	LaserJock	it seems to me that the problem is generally people having different expectations of Planet
23:16	Mez	but then, I guess this is where ompaul comes in and tells me I think too black and white
23:16	popey	LaserJock: and different uses for it
23:16	popey	"I use it for news gathering". "I use it to see behind the developers", "I use it to waste 10 mins at work"
23:17	Myrtti	"you're too pin
23:17	Mez	LaserJock, indeed... I see the planet as an insight to the developers, they have interesting blogs... If I want news, I use the fridge.
23:17	Flannel	Mez: those people would already be up in arms if it were laid out in writing.  And each 'wiggle room' incident's verdict depends a lot on the specifics of the situation.
23:17	mdke	LaserJock: the policy document deals with that; but I think Fabian and /sh just have a different view on appropriate content, rather than topic
23:17	Myrtti	^H^H^H^Hblack and white"
23:17	LaserJock	I've generally been lately encouraging people to use Fridge for news and Planet for "the window into Ubuntu member's world" which you may occasionally be offended by
23:17	sabdfl	\sh was clearly talking about masturbation, and not in a particularly practical sense either
23:17	sabdfl	then, he insisted not to be
23:17	sabdfl	but the inference is clear
23:17	Mez	LaserJock, that leaves something out...
23:18	Mez	LaserJock, the documentation of progress, status updates etc.
23:18	sabdfl	i think that's unacceptable
23:18	LaserJock	Mez: I think those are included
23:18	Mez	It's not news, it's not "personal"...
23:18	pwnguin	my only complaint is this interpretation that "WTF" in text and urls is disrespectful. the content part only arose after I asked about it =/
23:18	persia	Only about a quarter of those eligible to post on planet are developers: having too much of a development-centric view may be misleading anyway, regardless of public perception.
23:19	LaserJock	Mez: if it's personal stuff = Planet, if it's team/announcement stuff = Fridge
23:19	emmajane	mdke I've been trying to find the planet guidelines but have failed. URL, please?
23:19	popey	if WTF is complaint-worthy then so is RTFM
23:19	Mez	LaserJock, I thik that theres a lot of people who want to see the technical side and none of the "personal" stuff... and some who want to see it the other way
23:19	LaserJock	Mez: by personal I'm not saying non-technical
23:19	mdke	emmajane: i think you came in after I posted it - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntuEditorialPolicy
23:19	Myrtti	RTFM is even more complaint-worthy
23:19	sabdfl	i have no problem with WTF, it's a pretty standard interjection, as is RTFM
23:19	LaserJock	Mez: I'm saying, non-official statements, etc. Just individual Ubuntu people talking about what they're doing
23:20	mdke	yes, I agree with sabdfl about the specific post
23:20	popey	exactly, neither is particularly offensive if not directed at the individual
23:20	sabdfl	LaserJock: i agree, Planet is informal
23:20	pwnguin	well, RTFM is a bit disrespectful to the person presumably asking a question
23:20	mdke	the second post is not particularly constructive either
23:20	boredandblogging	the planet still isn't a good place to post about updates, it rolls off in a day
23:20	Myrtti	I've got personal issues with RTFM - RTFM is the thing that drove me away from Linux for three years before I found Ubuntu
23:20	Flannel	pwnguin: We don't allow RTFM in IRC because of it.
23:20	sabdfl	pwnguin: except that it's become standard... Read the Fine Manual ;-)
23:20	Mez	LaserJock, I know - but - theres also people who see planet as "what the peope behind ubuntu are doing for ubuntu" kinda thing... an "ubuntu planet" rather than a "ubuntu members planet" - does that make sense?
23:21	pwnguin	sabdfl: apparently the IRC council disagrees ;=)
23:21	popey	gah, i meant RTFM as in used as a piece of text, not as in "directed at someone"
23:21	LaserJock	Mez: and that's ok, if it's personal
23:21	Flannel	pwnguin: but, RTFM is directly insulting to the questioner, "WTF" or other things like that aren't insults usually.
23:21	mdke	Mez: and that is fine
23:21	Myrtti	everyone using that acronym on my watch is seriously in danger of being poked with a Pink Fluffy Pen of Poking™
23:21	ompaul	normally use of rtfm would get you  ubottu> Acronyms or statements like  noob, jfgi, stfu or rtfm are not welcome in this channel. Period.
23:21	LaserJock	but if people want to know about official announcements, team-related material, I think Fridge is more appropriate
23:21	mdke	LaserJock: there is no rule that news cannot be posted to Planet; it's a resource that people read. However people shouldn't expect it to be a news resource only; it's a big pot of what Ubuntu members want to blog about
23:21	sabdfl	Myrtti: he, i need a Pink Fluffy Pen of Poking™
23:21	LaserJock	which takes away some of the expectation that Planet should be "professional"
23:22	Technoviking	I feel people need to consider two things when feeding blogs post to the Planet 1. Does it interest the audience who read the Planet. 2. Does it represent Ubuntu/Ubuntu Community in a positive (even when it is a negative comment)
23:22	sabdfl	LaserJock: +1 that Planet is informal by design, and should stay that way
23:22	pwnguin	professional means "do not read". look how many people read "Risks Digest" versus "DailyWTF"
23:22	sabdfl	but i think it's also reasonable to filter things that are totally unrelated to Ubuntu or FLOSS
23:22	popey	ompaul: i mentioned RTFM _not_ directed at the individual, merely as an example of another acronym which as FSCK in it, and it is used often - often _NOT_ directed at people
23:22	Technoviking	s/positive/positive way
23:22	Mez	sabdfl, really?
23:23	mdke	Technoviking: I think that is a little bit too restrictive. People should be able to blog about whatever they wish, as long as it is compatible with the guidelines and common sense
23:23	ompaul	popey, yeap, I understood
23:23	ompaul	popey, I did prefix my comment, it is always about context
23:23	mdke	sabdfl: I disagree
23:23	mdke	(with the last bit)
23:23	Mez	sabdfl, to me, seeing <forgotten names> posts about how he's been fighting his illness etc etc...
23:23	Mez	that wouldnt be FLOSS/Ubuntu related.
23:24	Mez	but I want to see that...
23:24	sabdfl	i would say that the majority of a contributors posts should be Ubuntu or aligned, and the exceptions should not be offensive
23:24	emmajane	I think it might be nice to have more on what is appropriate in teh guidelines. I quite like the Flickr guidelines where people are encouraged to self-moderate. http://flickr.com/guidelines.gne
23:24	mdke	I tend to read with interest posts about member's non-Ubuntu related activities
23:24	mdke	sabdfl: nothing should be offensive, sure
23:24	pwnguin	mdke: given the number of people aggregated in planet ubuntu, its a bit nessecary to filter somewhere =(
23:24	popey	agreed mdke
23:24	popey	pwnguin: in the head of the reader?
23:24	pwnguin	or with a grep filter
23:25	mdke	emmajane: those are interesting, thanks
23:25	popey	nobody is forcing anyone to read it
23:25	sabdfl	mdke: what do you think about a case where a good contributor (say, a translator) never blogs about his ubuntu work, but blogs about stuff he writing on Windows?
23:25	sabdfl	i.e. where the majority of his posts would be jarring
23:25	Mez	mdke, same here... I think that they break it up nicely... having just tech etc is annoying, i want to know more about what makes these people who they are. Not just what they're woring on...
23:26	LaserJock	popey: that's not exactly true
23:26	Burgundavia	sabdfl: I think stuff like that really depends on volume
23:26	mdke	sabdfl: I think that's acceptable, and personally would find it interesting. I don't think it jars at all. Planet is a blog aggregator, not a community news or discussion site
23:26	popey	LaserJock: a bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver
23:26	Burgundavia	if they are posting every day about that, then a friendly email/comment asking them to slow them down would be nice
23:26	LaserJock	people are somewhat "forced" to read material on Planet
23:26	sabdfl	Burgundavia: i agree, and the volume is more acceptable if it's a small portion of a larger flow of aligned material
23:26	popey	LaserJock: gun to head?
23:26	mdke	when we start regulating topic on planet, it's a slippery slope, I fear
23:26	elmo	popey: I think that might be against the CoC
23:26	LaserJock	popey: no, but content *is* right there
23:26	sabdfl	mdke: i think blog aggregator is a term lost on most of the people who read planet :-)
23:27	sabdfl	i think most people just think it's a news site
23:27	popey	elmo: you'd love it tho :)
23:27	pwnguin	do we have any stats on rss versus page views?
23:27	Mez	sabdfl, and if it was floss related/ubutu related only, you'd have to delete half of Jono's blogs (which are normally a darn fine read!)
23:27	mdke	I prefer to see planet as a place where Ubuntu members share their blogs, and only intervene where content is inconsistent with the code of conduct
23:27	LaserJock	popey: if I'm scanning Planet and somebody has some grossly offensive picture for instance, I'm not sure you can claim that the reader isn't being forced to see that
23:27	mdke	rather than try and guide its subject matter
23:27	Burgundavia	does our planet support what planet gnome does, where you can use css to turn off spefici people?
23:28	popey	LaserJock: sure, but that's already covered by the planet guidelines
23:28	popey	Burgundavia: do you get to turn people on too?
23:28	popey	sorry
23:28	LaserJock	popey: well, only somewhat
23:28	Myrtti	LOL
23:28	elmo	page views appear to be ~3%
23:28	emmajane	Burgundavia: nicer to encourage good behaviour rather than to have to know fancy things to mod "bad" behaviour out...
23:28	Burgundavia	popey: really popey, I thought we were keeping that private
23:28	sabdfl	easy in CSS, popey ;-)
23:28	elmo	vs. RSS
23:29	elmo	(emphasis on the ~)
23:29	Myrtti	"whisper SQL to me, baby" *cough*
23:29	LaserJock	elmo: wow, that's quite a bit smaller than I would have thought
* Myrtti hides under her bed
23:29	sabdfl	SELECT leather FROM wardrobe ;-)
23:29	Flannel	Burgundavia: No, It doesn't appear that's possible currently.  No unique classes in the posts.
23:29	emmajane	ahem.
23:29	popey	hehe
23:29	sabdfl	we're drifting, here
23:29	mdke	alright, I'm going to have to retire shortly
23:29	Burgundavia	might that be possible to turn on?
23:30	Flannel	Burgundavia: It sounds like a good idea.
23:30	Flannel	And certainly would allow people to ignore certain posters
23:30	popey	someone needs to write a meta-planet which frontends the rss feed and allows you to tick/untick people
23:30	mdke	to be honest, it's so easy to skip over posts that don't interest you that it's not a massively important feature, I think
23:30	pwnguin	i kinda did
23:30	elmo	popey: people have for Debian/gnome
23:31	popey	ooo
23:31	elmo	but I don't think that helps the 'bad reflection' on Ubuntu aspect
23:31	Myrtti	I don't even read planet from planet.ubuntu.com
23:31	Flannel	pwnguin: It'll be easy enough (I think, I haven't seen the planet code) to just add a class to the posts, unique to each poster.
23:31	emmajane	Would it also be possible to put a link to the guidelines directly from planet.ubuntu.com?
23:31	Flannel	er, popey ^
23:31	elmo	anyway, what, if anything do we want to do about this specific incident
23:31	elmo	emmajane: yes, we're going to do that
23:31	mdke	emmajane: yes, that's part of the spec
23:31	Myrtti	I've grabbed the OPML to my rssowl
23:32	sabdfl	elmo: who can edit the Planet page?
23:32	pwnguin	elmo: move the conflict resolution to email I say. the affected parties need to at least know whats going on
23:32	sabdfl	we need to add the editorial policy there, which says we can remove content
23:32	mdke	elmo: let's raise it with \sh. It's difficult to discuss without reference to him
23:33	mdke	or rather, in his absence
23:33	sabdfl	i would personally like to see a guideline that says that posts should predominantly be about ubuntu
23:33	sabdfl	but i don't hear resounding support for that
23:33	emmajane	+1 for outlining what is desired content.
23:33	elmo	sabdfl: right now SAs, I'm working with mdke to expand that (with suitable oversight/review)
23:33	popey	so long is it is "predominantly" or "mostly" and not "entirely" I agree
23:34	Burgundavia	I would agree with that
23:34	LaserJock	me too
23:34	Flannel	I could support that in a guideline
23:34	mdke	that would be too limiting for me
23:34	Mez	mdke, myself also
23:34	sabdfl	CC, how do you feel about a "general emphasis on Ubuntu and FLOSS related content", with an explicit permission about life stuff to quell the regular "off topic" accusations
23:34	Myrtti	ubuntu? what about FLOSS in general?
23:34	popey	and as you say, _all_ posts (whether ubuntu centric or not) should comply with the planet guidelines
23:34	Daviey	I would hate to see people slated for not posting about Ubuntu.. if I can see that their content is otherwise interesting - and they are a known perosn - which by definition of membership they should be
23:34	elmo	sabdfl: do we have a regular off topic problem?
23:35	sabdfl	folks, i'm trying to narrow down to hear the views of the CC, we've had an open discussion already, now we need to get a decision
23:35	popey	can you add an extra clause "no posts about deal metal"?
23:35	popey	gah
23:35	popey	s/deal/death
23:35	sabdfl	elmo: i think we have consensus that *some* offtopic material is acceptable, even encouraged
23:35	Mez	popey, noel edmunds has a band?
23:35	Myrtti	popey: naughty
23:35	sabdfl	and often we have folks asking why a post was offtopic
23:35	mdke	-1 from me. It's inconsistent with my view of what a planet should be, and I see it as causing a slippery slope towards complaints of "off-topic" on particular blogs
23:36	elmo	we already have "Subscribed feeds ought to be at least occasionally relevant to Ubuntu", in PlanetUbuntu, FWIW
23:36	sabdfl	mdke: by my way of thinking, no single post would be offtopic
23:36	Mez	elmo, that sounds fine to em ;)
23:36	LaserJock	I kinda hate to say it, but with the exception of \sh have we even had other problems like this?
23:36	sabdfl	but a feed which contains a generally low ubuntu signal to other material, would raise questions
23:36	Mez	sabdfl, freedom of speech?
* nealmcb likes "FLOSS in general" - encouraging cross-fertilization
23:36	Mez	sabdfl, is there actually a problem about off-topicness in general?
23:36	Burgundavia	Mez: ENOTDEMOCRACY
23:36	pwnguin	LaserJock: there was the time fabian leaked canonical secrets, but not really related
23:37	sabdfl	Mez: it's a big web, you don't need to write everywhere to have freedom
23:37	Mez	sabdfl, but if my blog is aggregated, It restricts what I can write on my blog...
23:37	mdke	Burgundavia: you can have freedom of speech in non-democracies :p
23:37	mdke	sabdfl: yeah, I understand, I just think that going down that route would cause more complaints about off topic than we get now, and the current ones would be addressed by the spec anyway.
23:37	elmo	Mez: that's not true, any decent blog has tags
23:37	popey	Mez: categorise it
23:38	Technoviking	Mez: only feed part of your blog,
23:38	mdke	sabdfl: but my main objection is that I don't think a planet should be restricted except by the CoC and general common sense
23:38	mdke	anyway, I'm happy to be overruled :)
23:38	Flannel	Technoviking: That's not feasible for all blog software apparently.
23:38	Burgundavia	mdke: yes, but the compliant would be about censoring
23:38	Mez	that would depend on my writing it if I was using my own blog software ;) (and screws over livejournal I believe!)
23:38	Burgundavia	and advogato
23:39	pwnguin	livejournal has tagging filters
23:39	pwnguin	i use it
23:39	Mez	pwnguin, ah, well, It didnt when I used to use it ;)
23:40	elmo	anyway, I'm +0 on sabdfl's proposed 'ubuntu, floss + life'.  I'm not sure it would solve any of the actual escalated problems, or that it wouldn't make off-topic discussions more frequent
23:40	elmo	but like mdke, happy to be overruled
23:40	sabdfl	mdke: can you give me an example where general common sense would suggest lifting an article?
* Mez can
23:41	ogra	LaserJock, and in \sh's case i wouldnt even say the blog posts are the actual prob but hs kind of overreacting to critics and then misbehaving way worse that the actual thing deserves ... i personally dont see a big prob in the first article
23:41	mdke	sabdfl: yes, an article which is personally offensive, deals with unacceptable subject matter or is unnecessarily provocative; or otherwise offends the CoC :)
23:41	ogra	but the second is definately bad
23:41	LaserJock	ogra: mhm
23:42	LaserJock	the problem is that common sense isn't universal sense :-)
23:42	ogra	heh, yeah
* sabdfl worries about scaling planet, as ubuntumembers grows, and as more people blog about more stuff
23:42	sabdfl	ogra: good point
* Myrtti points at nicu's post on fedora planet
23:43	popey	are there many larger planets out there? how do they do it?
23:43	mdke	sabdfl: I see that, but we can perhaps deal with a problem if it arises
23:43	Flannel	sabdfl: We'll deal with that when we get there.  Right now its still managable
23:43	pwnguin	Myrtti: but that's already disrespectful
23:43	LaserJock	sabdfl: it is getting more difficult, stuff scrolls of pretty fast
=== Grantbow_ is now known as Grantbow
23:43	LaserJock	one distinguishing factor I've seen, in general
23:43	sabdfl	ok. does any other member of the CC feel that \sh's initial post was outside the boundaries of acceptability for planet?
23:43	popey	I'm pretty sure \sh's post would have disappeared and been forgotten if it hadn't been for fab bring it up in quite such a public way
23:44	LaserJock	is that Planet Ubuntu is a lot more non-developer
23:44	LaserJock	which may lead to more posts and perhaps more non-technical post
23:44	sabdfl	popey: but i suspect it did detract from the vibe many have
23:44	mdke	sabdfl: yes, a bit outside the boundaries for me
23:44	Technoviking	I feel it not it was out of bounds
23:44	popey	sabdfl: agreed, for a very short time
23:44	elmo	Technoviking: -eparse
23:44	Mez	developers.planet.ubuntu.com and members.planet.ubuntu.com?
23:45	Technoviking	ack it was out of bounds
23:45	mdke	LaserJock: I don't think Planet Gnome is less technical, or less frequently posted to
23:45	popey	mez.mars.planet.ubuntu.com
23:45	mdke	Mez: ugh
23:45	sabdfl	elmo?
23:45	emgent	hahha
23:45	emgent	:)
23:45	Mez	tech bit in one, personal in other... conglomerate in p.u.c :P
23:45	LaserJock	mdke: no? I do, but maybe it's just me
23:45	Technoviking	sorry about that
23:45	elmo	hmm, I don't like the posting
23:45	Mez	mdke, the subdomain acts as a a filter to p.u.c, rather than a seperate planet if you get my drift?
23:45	Myrtti	I'd settle for an asteroid
* elmo runs to read the CoC quickly
23:45	mdke	LaserJock: (that should have read "more technical, or less frequently")
23:45	ogra	i dont like it either but i dont think it was actually out of bounds ...
23:46	elmo	sabdfl: yeah, ok, out of bounds for me
23:46	ogra	it was a bad sense of humor
23:46	sabdfl	put it this way. i would love people to feel that all things ubuntu are well articulated, and respectfully done, even when they are satirical
23:46	sabdfl	this was not
23:46	Flannel	Mez: I'd rather just see the ability to filter clientside with CSS as per Burgundavia
23:46	mdke	sabdfl: *nod*
23:46	ogra	sabdfl, ++
23:46	sabdfl	i feel let down when i see this sort of thing, and i think it's quite ok for us to say so
23:46	sabdfl	i don't see how we could expect it to improve, if we said nothing
23:47	ogra	definately true
23:47	LaserJock	sabdfl: but what "teeth" does the CC have?
23:47	Burgundavia	we can remove somebody from planet
23:47	sabdfl	LaserJock: we have them, all the better to smile with
23:47	mdke	LaserJock: a full set!
23:48	ogra	Burgundavia, which would get people into cheering "censorship !!!"
23:48	Burgundavia	we could also talk about doing suspensions
23:48	LaserJock	well, but what I'm saying is, is this a "technical solutions to social issues" problem?
23:48	sabdfl	but this would not be so much about biting, as inspiring
23:48	popey	or "hurrah!" ogra
* ogra would hope we can do better than just flipping a switch
23:48	Burgundavia	essentially: removed for a certain amount of time until you have shown you can post and follow the CC
23:48	Burgundavia	CoC rather
23:48	sabdfl	elmo?
23:48	mdke	LaserJock: to be honest, I'd be disappointed if teeth were necessary, I suspect that talking to \sh will resolve the issue
23:48	LaserJock	does the CC actually have to take action, or can it just say that it's unhappy with posts
23:48	ogra	mdke, ++
23:49	LaserJock	mdke: me too
23:49	sabdfl	LaserJock: the latter, in this case, would i think be sufficient
23:49	Flannel	\sh thinks this is an overrreaction by magicfab, and seems to believe he is in line with the CoC, a simple mention that that's not true may suffice.
23:49	mdke	sanctions are very rarely imposed in this community, happily
23:49	LaserJock	agreed
23:49	pwnguin	if the CC were to remove or suspend sh, I'd hope it would be for his reply rather than the initial post. the CoC is nothing if it doesn't guide us on our worst days
23:49	sabdfl	Flannel: he also felt it necessary to be quite dishonest about what he was saying, in order to try to be inside the line, when challenged
23:50	sabdfl	he said he wasn't talking about masturbation, when clearly he was
23:50	Flannel	sabdfl: Thats true, and in some regards I think his response was a lot more telling than anything else.
23:50	ogra	Flannel, but he also has to learn that overreactions shouldnt be answered with even worse overreactions
23:50	sabdfl	so i think he knows he was out of line
23:50	elmo	sabdfl: err, I'm +1 on what you're saying - or are you asking me something more specific? :)
23:50	sabdfl	elmo: just wondered if you found what you were looking for in the CoC ;-)
23:50	mdke	do you guys not have it on the wall above your computers?
23:50	elmo	23:46 < elmo> sabdfl: yeah, ok, out of bounds for me
23:50	sabdfl	ah, you said above, i missed it
23:50	sabdfl	sorry
23:50	sabdfl	ok
23:51	elmo	mdke: yeah, but only at work
* mdke hurriedly takes his down
23:51	sabdfl	that's a consensus, as i see it
23:51	pwnguin	heh, maybe the canonical store can sell framed versions
23:51	sabdfl	separately, i think ogra has a very good point
23:51	mdke	yes
23:51	elmo	pwnguin: or signed ones.  we could get sabdfl a signing machine like POTUS has!
23:51	elmo	*ahem*
* LaserJock thinks everybody just needs a hug ;-)
23:51	LaserJock	where's dholbach?
23:51	ogra	\sh has a sad history of that kind of overreaction and he knows about it
23:52	ogra	so pointing him t that will surely move more than shutting him down (temporary or longterm)
23:52	popey	(again)
23:52	elmo	ogra: eh, so what do you suggest?
23:52	sabdfl	when critiqued, is almost the most important time to raise the quality of discourse
23:53	ogra	talk to him about the second post, he knows the first wasnt right, but he also knows he tends to overreact
23:53	sabdfl	LaserJock: nobody is trying to hurt or cause offense, and we find the whole community gets stronger when we figure out what we won't accept
23:53	mdke	I have to go now, thanks for the very productive meeting everyone
23:53	pwnguin	an alternative might be to offer some editorial advice prior to posting. kuro5hin had a neat collaborative editing feature
23:53	sabdfl	and we all think the folks concerned here are good members of the community
23:54	sabdfl	hmm...
23:54	sabdfl	we are out of time, i think
23:54	Burgundavia	another option would be supervision
23:54	Burgundavia	essentially, ask a poster to get somebody else to look over any post before it goes live
23:54	sabdfl	given that we have consensus on the first post, i'll write to \sh
23:54	sabdfl	privately, cc the CC
23:55	sabdfl	Burgundavia: "knowing that you don't intend to cause offense, it might be worth..."
23:55	sabdfl	yes, can do that
23:55	sabdfl	let's wrap it up now, unless there are any emergencies
23:55	sabdfl	we're through the agenda
23:55	sabdfl	any other business?
23:55	sabdfl	going... going...
23:55	Burgundavia	nope
23:56	Burgundavia	oh wait, there is no food in my house. Does that count?
23:56	sabdfl	:-)
* popey scps Burgundavia a donut
23:56	sabdfl	gone
23:56	sabdfl	did i mention how much i enjoy working with you all?
23:56	popey	heh
* ogra plays MIM between popey and Burgundavia and has a bite
23:56	sabdfl	thank you everyone
23:57	popey	hang on, mdke has a copy of the CoC printed out
23:57	sabdfl	sigh. ogra. QUOTES PAGE
23:57	ogra	:)
23:57	popey	heh
23:57	Technoviking	thanks all
23:58	sabdfl	night all
23:59	ogra	night

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