[12:16] <daniels> SleepBoB: dude, if you want a radeon 9000, i can lend it to you tonight
[12:17] <daniels> here's $5, buy something that's not nvidia
[12:28] <mdz> daniels: how do I go about getting a dvorak layout with xkb on a powerpc (which uses xkblayout "macintosh")?
[12:28] <mdz> on i386 "setxkbmap dvorak" works fine
[12:29] <mdz> but on powerpc I get a very unhelpful "Error loading new keyboard description"
[12:29] <mdz> in other words, #255007
[12:29] <mdz> which I just noticed
[12:30] <mdz> which also contains a fix
[12:32] <mdz> and so, never mind :-)
[12:33] <daniels> glad to be of service ;)
[12:33] <daniels> do you want the next xfree86 revision to have that fix?
[12:35] <mdz> I just pulled it into warty bugzilla to ask about that
[12:37] <daniels> rad
[12:37] <daniels> pool/main/t ...
[01:11] <mark0> anyoen here installed warty amd64?
[01:13] <Clint> not I
[01:14] <mark0> are you using the x86 ver?
[01:14] <mark0> err i386/ia32
[01:15] <Clint> no, I've only used powerpc
[01:15] <mark0> i guess i could try it on nova
[03:37] <Clint> maybe you should try the mailing list
[04:35] <jdub> yo, can you guys check the FAQ to see if we're missing anything sensible?
[04:35] <jdub>   http://wiki.no-name-yet.com/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
[04:35] <jdub> i've just added a short entry about root
[04:35] <jdub> because everyone's asking about it :-)
[04:35] <jdub> if any of those answers need to be improved, let me know
[04:35] <hrdwrbob> hence, FAQ :)
[04:35] <Gman> what's the username and passwd? ;)
[04:36] <jdub> Gman: sounder:oink
[04:36] <jdub> sounders:oink, sorry
[04:36] <Gman> oh right, /topic
[04:36] <Gman> wondered what that meant
[04:36] <Kamion> let's expand that a bit
[04:37] <hrdwrbob> much ebtter
[04:37] <jdub> bah, you got there before i did
[04:37] <jdub> oh
[04:37] <jdub> which is better? :)
[04:37] <Kamion> yours'll do
[04:37] <hrdwrbob> second one, I was about to say words to that effect :)
[04:38] <jdub> 'sonly going to have a password for a little while longer ;)
[04:38] <jdub> cef_work: you're posting with a different email address to the one you subscribed under :)
[04:39] <jdub> Kamion: what does openssh-server use openssh-client for?
[04:40] <jdub> Kamion: proxy and so on, or...?
[04:46] <Gman> 'Please note that the real one would be less racy, but this is the sort of palette I imagine we will want.'
[04:46] <Gman> hahahahaha
[04:48] <Clint> jdub: I imagine it needs it for scp and sftp
[05:08] <jdub> grr, seb nuked my changes to file-roller and gnome-applets :|
[05:09] <Riff> you touchin' my applets?
[05:09] <jdub> yeah
[05:10] <Riff> right! let's take this outside!
[05:10] <jdub> unlike all the other applets, the wireless applet does not have any padding (mostly because the default image is padded already)
[05:15] <Kamion> jdub: /etc/ssh/moduli, ssh-keysign, couple of other common things
[05:15] <Kamion> Clint: -server doesn't need scp
[05:15] <Kamion> don't see why it should need the sftp client either really
[05:15] <Kamion> oh, scp, yes
[05:15] <cef_work> jdub: bugger.. I'll fix that.. sorry
[05:15] <Kamion> sorry, it's 0415 here
[05:16] <jdub> Kamion: was thinking last week - might be cool to have an ssh server with no ssh client
[05:16] <cef_work> jdub: want me to repost?
[05:16] <Kamion> jdub: I considered that, but decided against it.
[05:16] <jdub> cef_work: nah, i've moderated :)
[05:16] <Kamion> I don't think it's a sufficiently valuable use case to justify the extra package
[05:16] <Kamion> since installing openssh-client is not harmful
[05:17] <cef_work> cool.. bah! seems a lot of my mail settings have been reset
[05:17] <Kamion> hm, oops, I put sshd_config(5) in openssh-client by mistake
[05:38] <tvon_> Nifty work so far folks.
[05:39] <tvon_> While the brown might be a little much, I dig the ubuntu logo/wallpaper bits :)
[05:40] <jdub> heh, that will all change ;)
[05:40] <jdub> (see the FAQ)
[05:40] <jdub> welcome, btw
[05:40] <tvon_> Yeah, was just skimming the faq
[05:40] <tvon_> and thanks
[05:41] <tvon_> wrong key
[05:42] <tvon_> Live CD default background is nice
[05:43] <tvon_> The 'installer' is basically the latest debian installer, yes?
[05:44] <jdub> tvon_: yeah, but way simplified
[05:44] <tvon_> I upped from a bastardized testing/unstable system and things seemed to go well
[05:44] <mdz> tvon_: at its core
[05:44] <tvon_> ah, nice
[05:44] <tvon_> I'll have to check that out
[05:46] <tvon_> bootsplash bits are based on..well, 'bootsplash'?
[05:47] <tvon_> (as opposed to rhgb or something like that)
[05:54] <Kamion> tvon|lurking: we're not doing bootsplash for warty, but it's actually going to be a pure userspace thing some of our guys have done themselves
[05:55] <Kamion> tvon|lurking: we tried to use bootsplash, but the requirement to build all the framebuffer modules into the kernel broke our installer
[06:03] <lamont> I want my resolution back..
[06:04] <mdz> lamont: -6ubuntu10?
[06:04] <lamont> sigh
[06:04] <lamont> brb
[06:16] <lamont> 1280x1024, 16-bit seems to work just fine...
[06:36] <fabbione> morning guys
[06:36] <fabbione> lamont: are you on ubuntu10?
[06:37] <lamont> 9
[06:37] <lamont> fire call - back in a bit
[06:37] <fabbione> ok
[06:38] <fabbione> lamont: ubuntu9 was broken. please upgrade ubuntu10
[06:39] <fabbione> uhuhu we have the fix for XKB
[06:39] <fabbione> !
[06:48] <jdub> more x uploads! :)
[06:58] <lamont> takes forever and a day to download, you know...
[06:59] <tvon> mmm, broadband
[06:59] <mdz> lamont: it's faster if you just upgrade it, rather than syncing an entire mirror
[06:59] <fabbione> lamont: i have been working 14 hours yesterday to fix all the -reconfigure /upgrade thingy
[06:59] <lamont> mdz: yeah, but not by much..
[07:00] <lamont> then again, if I just upgrade it, then I don't go through the straw...
[07:00] <lamont> well, I can bypass the straw, that is.
[07:00] <lamont> tvon: I have broadband, but the billing is kinda wierd...
[07:00] <fabbione> lamont: you need only xserver-xfree86 and xserver-common from ubuntu10
[07:00] <lamont> end result is that I mirror warty at 20kbps
[07:00] <lamont> fabbione: but I have 9 and a working X config...
[07:01] <tvon> lamont: ah
[07:01] <lamont> fabbione: is -11 due anytime soon?
[07:01] <fabbione> lamont: dpkg-reconfigure won't work and it will smash your config
[07:01] <fabbione> lamont: probably today or tomorrow
[07:01] <lamont> fabbione: yeah - I noticed.  But vi works..
[07:01] <lamont> fabbione: cool
[07:01] <fabbione> lamont: well it's enough you add a line at the end of the file
[07:02] <fabbione> and the config won't be touched anymore
[07:18] <lamont> mdz: btw, I just sync main and about 5 packages from universe, not the whole archive
[07:27] <fabbione> mdz: i agree that we should kill the -novtswitch
[07:27] <mdz> fabbione: ok
[07:28] <fabbione> daniels will have time to do it properly
[07:28] <diieman> yeah, hes downloading about 2 cds a week
[07:30] <hrdwrbob> gah
[07:30] <hrdwrbob> what's the URL to the isos?
[07:31] <jdub> http://ftp.no-name-yet.com/cdimage/
[07:31] <jdub> see the wiki :)
[07:32] <hrdwrbob> oh der
[07:32] <hrdwrbob> under 'archive'
[08:16] <ik5pvx> uhm.... upgrading hal while accessing an USB disc seems not to be a great idea
[08:16] <ik5pvx> hmmm... reboot required
[08:18] <ik5pvx> hmmmmmmmmmmmmm..... hard boot required
[08:18] <tvon> hah
[08:19] <ik5pvx> ide freezed too
[08:23] <fabbione> that's bad
[08:24] <fabbione> ik5pvx: please file a bug
[08:24] <ik5pvx> I'm saving the logs right now
[08:24] <ik5pvx> want to see  it before I file a bug ?
[08:24] <fabbione> also... it would be nice to see if it can be reproduced
[08:24] <fabbione> just go ahead.. i will get the mail from the systemm
[08:25] <fabbione> hey.. i gave you that laptop to play with warty :-)))
[08:25] <fabbione> use it :P
[08:25] <ik5pvx> will do in a while
[08:29] <ik5pvx> ehm
[08:34] <jdub> mdz: hmm, seems the broadcom in the x300 works with the tg3 driver
[09:19] <fabbione> ik5pvx: i think the problem is related to USB only. all the otherstuff is a chain of things that goes banana
[09:20] <fabbione> or these ones are the bits during the shutdown?
[09:21] <daniels> oh
[09:21] <daniels> the kernel with warty seems to hate usb
[09:21] <daniels> if i cat /proc/usb/devices with my media reader plugged in, it'll just dump in d
[09:22] <Mithrandir> daniels: seems to work fine on my workstation.
[09:24] <daniels> probably just hates the kt400; i don't blame it
[09:26] <fabbione> daniels: WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TO THE KERNEL THIS TIME? :P
[09:26] <fabbione> daniels: btw ubuntu10 is up with all the fixes
[09:26] <fabbione> i am going to upload ubuntu11 that has all the META key fixes
[09:26] <fabbione> and ask sounders to do a good round of autodetection tests
[09:28] <daniels> fabbione: ok, cool
[09:28] <daniels> i had an ubuntu with novtswitch fixes, and i've been looking at macintosh stuff
[09:28] <daniels> as well as having fixed pppoe and a couple of others
[09:28] <daniels> mdz has handed me a couple of lovely bugs to hunt down
[09:28] <fabbione> daniels: in ubuntu11 i already killed the novt stuff
[09:28] <daniels> fabbione: it was never there
[09:28] <daniels> afaict
[09:28] <fabbione> daniels: there was the patch
[09:28] <fabbione> we added it in ubuntu6 or something
[09:31] <daniels> i looked in ubuntu10 and there was no #914
[09:32] <fabbione> impossible.. i deleted it only this morning
[09:32] <fabbione> until....
[09:32] <fabbione> HMMMMM
[09:32] <fabbione> AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
[09:32] <fabbione> because i used svn export
[09:32] <fabbione> that's why
[09:33] <fabbione> ok.. never mind than
[09:33] <fabbione> my fault
[09:34] <daniels> heh :) that's what you get for using svn :P
[09:36] <ik5pvx> fabbione, yes I too think it's a chain reaction. It's strange that udev freezes too, and I couldn't complete the reboot.
[09:37] <fabbione> ik5pvx: udev is full of race conditions afaict
[09:37] <ik5pvx> (<rant> yeah they replaced a buggy devfs with a buggy udev </rant>)
[09:41] <fabbione> ok.. ubuntu11 is up...
[10:23] <seb128> morning
[10:24] <seb128> jdub: here ?
[10:24] <jdub> morning seb
[10:24] <jdub> get my mail? :)
[10:24] <seb128> hey jdub :)
[10:24] <seb128> yes, but I've apt-get source from warty as usual
[10:24] <seb128> you've made your changes out of the debian dir ?
[10:25] <jdub> nup
[10:25] <seb128> I just keep the debian dir between the version ...
[10:25] <seb128> for gnome-applets I've this entry in the changelog
[10:25] <seb128> "  * Tastier icons for the wireless applet."
[10:26] <jdub> see my .changes entries for file-roller and gnome-applets
[10:26] <Riff> these icons better end upstream
[10:26] <jdub> Riff: i just nicked the netapplet ones for now
[10:26] <jdub> Riff: but decided not to use those anyway
[10:26] <jdub> (they're mobile phone bars, which is inappropriate for wireless)
[10:27] <jdub> i'm going to have some new ones made which will be much nicer
[10:27] <seb128> jdub: where have you made your changes for the applets ?
[10:27] <jdub> seb128: under debian/
[10:27] <Gman> a pair of breasts perhaps?
[10:27] <Gman> :)
[10:27] <seb128> I've apt-get source gnome-applets, grab the debian dir and put it in the new version
[10:27] <jdub> a bunch of .uu files, a change to debian/rules, and a patch in patches/
[10:27] <jdub> hrm
[10:27] <jdub> i totally uploaded it
[10:27] <Riff> Gman; how do you represent wireless strength with a pair of breasts?
[10:28] <jdub> i can send you the changes :-)
[10:28] <seb128> jdub: I've your changelog entry .... I swear I've not changed the debian dir
[10:28] <seb128> out of the changelog and control.in for the depends
[10:28] <jdub> seb128: does it include the wireless padding patch?
[10:29] <seb128> "  * Tastier icons for the wireless applet." is the previous entry
[10:29] <jdub> and/or comment in the changelog
[10:29] <jdub> hrm
[10:29] <jdub> i'm sure i uploaded them
[10:29] <jdub> 8)
[10:29] <seb128> I've apt-get source gnome-applets
[10:29] <jdub> i'll re-upload
[10:29] <jdub> there was the menu change for fileroller, too
[10:29] <seb128>  gnome-applets (2.7.2-0ubuntu4) warty; urgency=low
[10:29] <seb128>  .
[10:29] <seb128>    * debian/patches/07_wireless_padding.patch:
[10:29] <seb128>      - add 2 pixels of padding for hboxed applets
[10:29] <seb128> 
[10:29] <seb128> grumpf
[10:30] <Gman> Riff, dunno, i'm sure there are ways
[10:30] <seb128> perhaps I've not apt-get update and the warty mirror had both versions
[10:30] <jdub> ahr
[10:30] <jdub> yeah, that's the one
[10:30] <seb128> jdub: do you still have the changes ? :)
[10:30] <jdub> Gman: the harder the nipple...
[10:30] <jdub> seb128: yeah
[10:30] <seb128> if yes, please mail them
[10:30] <Riff> jdub; I had wondered that
[10:31] <seb128> mental note: the warty mirror can provide old sources, always apt-get update before getting the source package for a new version
[10:31] <seb128> jdub: sorry for nucking your changes :p
[10:32] <jdub> don't worry
[10:32] <jdub> i love it when you nuck my changes
[10:32] <seb128> ah ah
[10:32] <jdub> ;)
[10:33] <jdub> seb128: "it won't matter anymore when we have hct"
[10:33] <seb128> BTW we don't have a lot of time before before the release and still a lot of desktop changes/fixes to do
[10:33] <jdub> yeah
[10:33] <seb128> would be nice to get your comments about the menu
[10:34] <jdub> yeah, sorry, been away for the weekend 8)
[10:34] <seb128> to take a decision about the trash applet (upstream probably in holidays, he doesn't reply)
[10:34] <jdub> what did we need to decide?
[10:34] <seb128> should I start fixing the problem ? Or we just trash the trash applet ? :p
[10:34] <seb128> s/problem/problems/
[10:35] <seb128> it has some bugs, no animation and no translation
[10:35] <seb128> we need to put some efforts in it if we want to ship it
[10:36] <jdub> yeah
[10:36] <jdub> okay, trash it :-)
[10:36] <jdub> perhaps put it in supported
[10:36] <jdub> have you put it in debian yet?
[10:36] <seb128> no
[10:37] <jdub> if you get time, that might be nice :)
[10:37] <seb128> not really the good time to put new stuffs in debian, autobuilders are overloaded and we are trying to release sarge
[10:37] <seb128> yes ...
[10:37] <jdub> yeah
[10:37] <jdub> whenever's handy
[10:37] <seb128> BTW that's quick to upload it, I'll try to do it soon
[10:38] <seb128> we also need to make changes on the damn battery and wireless applets
[10:38] <seb128> if you don't have a laptop they keep displays messages
[10:38] <Riff> seb128; I fixed the battery applet for desktops I think
[10:39] <Riff> I never committed the patch though, because noone has tested it
[10:39] <Riff> including me
[10:39] <Riff> it works on my laptop though
[10:40] <Riff> seb128; does this help you: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=150899
[10:40] <seb128> thanks
[10:44] <jdub> Riff: what does it do for machines that don't have batteries?
[10:44] <Riff> jdub; that's the point, it's meant to say they're on AC power
[10:45] <Riff> personally I think it's a kernel bug
[10:45] <jdub> right
[10:45] <Riff> if you load the battery module without a battery, it should have a state file saying battery: none
[10:45] <Riff> or something
[10:45] <jdub> we just want to get rid of it, and remove it from the panel config
[10:46] <jdub> seb128: another option is doing some laptop-detect foo and choosing a different default panel profile
[10:48] <Riff> I should get a screen and a videocard for my desktop
[10:48] <Riff> so I can start playing with it properly
[10:54] <SleepBoB> well, it's not the geforce2mx that's causing the rebooting problems
[11:41] <fabbione> rburton: ping
[11:41] <rburton> pong
[11:42] <fabbione> rburton: sorry i don't understand your answer
[11:42] <fabbione> it is gone, or it is gone adding the resolution?
[11:42] <rburton> adding the resolution lines made the mouse speed reasonable again
[11:42] <fabbione> ok
[11:43] <fabbione> adding a fix is not easy....
[11:43] <fabbione> i mean an automatic fix...
[11:43] <rburton> yeah, i can imagine
[11:44] <fabbione> it's more the sequence in which things are done than anything else
[11:44] <fabbione> and who will own the fix.
[11:44] <fabbione> the modules are loaded by discover i think, or hotplug
[11:44] <fabbione> but the resolution is set at a much later stage by X
[11:45] <thom> Riff: so, now you've fixed forecasts for the UK, can we have weather maps too? :P
[11:45] <fabbione> so theoretically i need to feed these info to hotplug ...
[11:45] <Riff> thom; you can put in a custom radar URL
[11:45] <rburton> fabbione: is it possible this is a kernel driver bug, where some mouses send a much higher resolution data than others and the driver doesn't know this?
[11:45] <Riff> also, it's Alan Cox who fixed it
[11:46] <thom> oh well
[11:46] <fabbione> rburton: yes. it can be everything.
[11:46] <thom> so much for that hope :-)
[11:46] <fabbione> rburton: even a mouse that sends more info
[11:46] <jdub> thom: http://mirror.bom.gov.au/radar/IDR033.gif
[11:46] <fabbione> rburton: i think it's called the repeater or something similar
[11:46] <jdub> :-)
[11:47] <fabbione> THUNDER.. AH AH AH AHHH
[12:56] <edd> you know what? it's probably a good idea to disable the xscreensaver module that fakes crash screens from windows
[12:56] <thom> heh, that might be a good plan
[12:56] <edd> i can dual booting users getting a little panicked when that one comes up
[12:57] <ik5pvx> you are probably right, but it's so fun to see those windows people giggle at you "your pc has crashed" and then impressing them with the password for xscreensaver
[12:59] <fabbione> :-)
[01:30] <Riff> ik5pvx; if only that password dialog wasn't so damned ugly
[01:31] <thom> Riff: well, what happened to gscreensaver?
[01:32] <rburton> it never happened?
[01:32] <Riff> thom; I has managed not to happen yet
[01:32] <Riff> I should get back on with that
[01:33] <rburton> i take it the plan would be to support the xscreensaver hacks but with a nice unlock interface and dbus magic
[01:34] <Riff> rburton; pretty much
[01:34] <Riff> the design plan, is to invent a magic auditable way to fit it into xscreensaver
[01:35] <Riff> so that jwz won't flame me any more
[01:35] <rburton> hahaha
[01:37] <ik5pvx> oh... riff left... anyway, tehre are some configurable items in app-defaults for xscreensaver... at least the colors could be tuned, I think
[01:49] <lifeless> why did my battery applet suddenly go vertical ?
[01:53] <Riff> did your taskbar get bigger?
[01:54] <lifeless> no.
[01:55] <lifeless> I did an aptitude update yesterday, today the battery is vertical not horizontal... harder to read. 
[02:25] <doko> fabbione: how to debug apache2, if each newly created child process immediatly segfaults?
[02:25] <fabbione> doko: summoning thom? ;)
[02:26] <fabbione> i am trying to split a package right now to save a few (hundred) Mb for each X uploads
[02:26] <fabbione> tho it will suck the first upload
[02:26] <fabbione> but it will save us a lot of bw later on
[02:30] <Oskuro> fabbione: speaking of X, do you know what the status of the meta/hyper RC bug in Debian's X is?
[02:30] <fabbione> Oskuro: debian is pending upload
[02:30] <fabbione> for us the fix is in Ubuntu11
[02:31] <fabbione> that i uploaded this morning
[02:31] <fabbione> scary eh?
[02:31] <Oskuro> RAD! ;)
[02:33] <fabbione> at least they should be working
[02:33] <fabbione> if they don't let me know
[02:33] <fabbione> because Overfiend was overexcited for the fix
[02:35] <Oskuro> heh
[02:35] <Oskuro> so it was recently marked pending, I guess.
[02:35] <Oskuro> I just looked at the bug today and saw it was pending
[02:36] <Oskuro> have I said I *hate* OpenOffice's source, and above that BUILDING openoffice?
[02:40] <fabbione> Oskuro: yesterday night
[02:41] <Oskuro> fabbione: k
[02:57] <seb128> Oskuro: do you know how to apply a patch to openoffice package in a proper way ? :)
[02:57] <thom> doko: which versions, what modules do you have loaded?
[03:00] <Oskuro> seb128: I'm leaving this stupid place in 1 minute
[03:00] <Oskuro> hmm, actually, 20 seconds, but I can tel lyou tomorrow
[03:00] <Oskuro> seb128: or #debian-oo
[03:01] <doko> thom: current ubuntu, libapache2-mod-python2.3
[03:01] <seb128> Oskuro: ok
[03:05] <jdub> seb128: you going to do an evo update, or wait to sync with debian?
[03:06] <seb128> need to catch up with all the other stuffs and I'll see
[03:06] <seb128> probably ask for a sync for a part of the packages
[03:06] <seb128> why ?
[03:07] <jdub> seb128: just wondering when to do evolution-exchange :)
[03:07] <seb128> ok, I'll let you know, hopefully Kitame will update the debian packages soon :)
[03:14] <rburton> can anyone remember the bug# for they xfree86 stickly windows key bug?
[03:16] <fabbione> rburton: ???
[03:17] <seb128> rburton: again ?
[03:17] <seb128> :)
[03:17] <seb128> wait
[03:17] <rburton> yeah, sorry
[03:17] <rburton> i'll write it down this time :)
[03:17] <fabbione> ehehhe
[03:17] <rburton> i was hoping ubuntu11 contained the fix, but no such luck
[03:18] <rburton> fabbione: does xfree86 guess a keyboard layout from the locale?
[03:18] <fabbione> rburton: yes
[03:18] <rburton> fab
[03:19] <seb128> rburton: #259740 this one ?
[03:19] <fabbione> rburton: ubuntu11 has the fixes that will go into Debian for all the <META> keys
[03:19] <fabbione> rburton: if it doesn't work please follow up with me and Overfiend 
[03:19] <fabbione> because it's only in trunk and not part of Debian yet
[03:19] <rburton> i've still got a sticky windows/super key
[03:20] <rburton> as in 259740
[03:20] <fabbione> rburton: just a sec
[03:20] <rburton> how can i reset the keyboard layout, removing any xmodmap commands, whilst in x
[03:21] <fabbione> why removing any xmodmap commands?
[03:22] <rburton> i've just ran some to fix the sticky super key
[03:22] <rburton> i'll just logout/in again :)
[03:22] <rburton> bbiab
[03:25] <fabbione> rburton: please next time gimme a sec to check the commands :-))))
[03:25] <rburton> right, fresh Xubuntu11, with a sticky super key which means the metacity window switcher won't go away until i release and press super
[03:25] <rburton> fabbione: :)
[03:26] <rburton> i'd only just logged in so this wasn't a problem, and ensures a clean setup
[03:26] <fabbione> rburton: is that the correct behaviour?
[03:26] <rburton> nope
[03:26] <fabbione> ok, please follow up on the Debian bug.
[03:26] <rburton> i press super, arrows move around the workspaces, but when i let go of super, the popup doesn't go
[03:26] <fabbione> ~
[03:26] <fabbione> ops
[03:27] <fabbione> ;3~
[03:27] <fabbione> ARGH
[03:27] <fabbione> damn keyboard
[03:28] <fabbione> is it ctrl+alt+<arrows>?
[03:28] <rburton> its the windows key for me
[03:28] <fabbione> rburton: right or left?
[03:29] <rburton> both
[03:29] <fabbione> they do nothing for me
[03:29] <rburton> keyboard layout pc104
[03:30] <fabbione> same here
[03:30] <fabbione> xfree86, dk layout
[03:31] <rburton> i think metacity uses meta by default as the hotkey
[03:32] <fabbione> i am running a "standard" desktop installation
[03:32] <fabbione> no local modification or anything
[03:32] <fabbione> kinda to keep it as neutral as possible
[03:33] <seb128> here that's ctrl+alt too
[03:33] <fabbione> ctrl+alt+<arrows> works for me
[03:33] <fabbione> as soon as i release any of the buttons the popup goes away
[03:34] <seb128> me too
[03:34] <fabbione> so that's correct.. i guess
[03:35] <seb128> the problem is with the windows key, not with alt
[03:36] <fabbione> yeah i got that
[03:36] <tvon> With the left or right ctrl/alt keys?
[03:36] <fabbione> rburton: please follow up on the Debian bug, exaplaning that you are using svn trunk version of X and that i told you to do so
[03:36] <tvon> Left keys work fine for me, right keys cause the popup to stay
[03:36] <rburton> fabbione: am doing so now
[03:37] <fabbione> rburton: thanks a lot
[03:37] <fabbione> tvon|lurking: right.. i can see that too
[03:38] <Kamion> woo, finally finished the base-config merge, I think
[03:39] <Kamion> that was inordinately painful
[03:39] <lifeless> debian->ubuntu merge ?
[03:39] <Kamion> yes
[03:40] <fabbione> Kamion: what's new and hot in base-config?
[03:40] <Kamion>   * Merge to warty, mainly for translation updates, debconf preseeding, and
[03:40] <Kamion>     GDM language setting.
[03:40] <fabbione> oh ok
[03:40] <fabbione> nice :)
[03:40] <Kamion> the last was the impetus, but the second would be *really* nice if we can make it work in warty
[03:41] <crevette_> hello
[03:41] <seb128> hey crevette 
[03:42] <crevetteZulu> the new xfree resolved res detection
[03:43] <fabbione> crevetteZulu: so it works fine for you?
[03:45] <crevetteZulu> I'm just a the step two
[03:46] <fabbione> cool
[03:47] <crevetteZulu> but at this point the XF86config is feed with accurate frequency
[03:47] <crevetteZulu> and it's better
[03:47] <crevetteZulu> the process detection even my monitor and VGA card information
[03:47] <crevetteZulu> s/detection/detects/
[03:51] <fabbione> yup
[03:52] <crevetteZulu> it the last update is only for laptop user ? because i'm a wkstation user and It's even better :)
[03:53] <fabbione> no it's for everybody
[03:53] <crevetteZulu> ok
[03:53] <fabbione> laptop and workstations
[03:53] <crevetteZulu> I will try with the last and final step
[03:53] <crevetteZulu> see you
[03:53] <fabbione> ok
[04:05] <crevetteZulu> back again
[04:05] <crevetteZulu> step 3 didn't worked for me
[04:05] <crevetteZulu> only a blinking led on my monitor
[04:08] <lifeless> my battery status applet has died :[
[04:08] <lifeless> anyone want a bug report?
[04:08] <thom> lifeless: well, yes. bugzilla does
[04:09] <lifeless> no idea how to reproduce...
[04:09] <Riff> lifeless; I think I've fixed it
[04:09] <fabbione> crevetteZulu: ok. can you send us all the info, like video card, logs, configurations and so on?
[04:09] <Riff> what version of the applet are you running?
[04:09] <fabbione> crevetteZulu: at least to have an idea of what is wrong and what needs to be fixed
[04:10] <lifeless> 2.7.2-0ubuntu4
[04:12] <Riff> you probably need to try 2.7.3
[04:12] <lifeless> ok, that is probably in my aptitude download now.
[04:12] <Riff> hang on, I'll get a stack trace to compare yours against
[04:12] <crevetteZulu> f*ck
[04:12] <lifeless> let me attach gdb
[04:13] <crevetteZulu> I forgot to keep a log of the step 3
[04:13] <lifeless> hah. 
[04:13] <lifeless> No stack.
[04:13] <Riff> lifeless; that's ok then
[04:14] <lifeless> ah. my bad
[04:14] <lifeless> (gdb) bt
[04:14] <lifeless> #0  0x4070401e in __read_nocancel () from /lib/tls/libpthread.so.0
[04:14] <lifeless> #1  0x408a62c1 in g_vasprintf () from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
[04:14] <lifeless> #2  0x4087e231 in g_io_channel_get_encoding () from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
[04:14] <lifeless> #3  0x4087ed34 in g_io_channel_read_line_string () from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
[04:14] <lifeless> #4  0x4087eb4a in g_io_channel_read_line_string () from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
[04:14] <lifeless> #5  0x08051764 in acpi_process_event ()
[04:14] <lifeless> #6  0x0804d6a4 in acpi_callback ()
[04:14] <lifeless> #7  0x408a622f in g_vasprintf () from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
[04:14] <Riff> compare to this: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=151412
[04:14] <lifeless> #8  0x408837ed in g_main_depth () from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
[04:14] <lifeless> #9  0x40884818 in g_main_context_dispatch () from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
[04:14] <lifeless> #10 0x40884b3a in g_main_context_dispatch () from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
[04:14] <lifeless> #11 0x40885113 in g_main_loop_run () from /usr/lib/libglib-2.0.so.0
[04:14] <lifeless> #12 0x401fcbbf in bonobo_main () from /usr/lib/libbonobo-2.so.0
[04:14] <lifeless> #13 0x401faf12 in bonobo_generic_factory_main_timeout () from /usr/lib/libbonobo-2.so.0
[04:14] <lifeless> #14 0x401fae32 in bonobo_generic_factory_main () from /usr/lib/libbonobo-2.so.0
[04:14] <fabbione> crevetteZulu: i know it's a bit long procedure... but would you mind to do step 3 again?
[04:14] <lifeless> #15 0x4002ffd9 in panel_applet_factory_main_closure () from /usr/lib/libpanel-applet-2.so.0
[04:14] <lifeless> #16 0x400300f2 in panel_applet_factory_main () from /usr/lib/libpanel-applet-2.so.0
[04:14] <lifeless> #17 0x08050f9b in main ()
[04:14] <lifeless> nope, not even close.
[04:15] <crevetteZulu> fabbione, yes yes of course
[04:15] <crevetteZulu> I 'll do that right now
[04:15] <fabbione> crevetteZulu: thanks a lot!
[04:15] <Riff> lifeless; can you file it then?
[04:15] <crevetteZulu> bbq
[04:16] <lifeless> bah, gnome-applets is missing from the component list
[04:16] <Riff> go to bugzilla.gnome.org
[04:16] <lifeless> err. Surely I should be filing this against ubuntu bugzilla.
[04:17] <thom> and then seb has to move it upstream, so you might just as well :-)
[04:17] <Riff> lifeless; unless you can establish it's a bug in some ubuntu specific bug
[04:18] <lifeless> I've always had the precedence the other way around... distro first, which triages, then upstream.
[04:18] <Riff> are ubuntu patching gnome-applets?
[04:18] <Kamion> it's not that; if there's something release-critical that we need to fix then it needs to be in our bug tracking system for tracking
[04:19] <lifeless> I don't know. And then there is Kamions point too.
[04:19] <Riff> lifeless; it looks vaguely like something in GNOME, which means I want to fix it for GNOME 2.8 anyway
[04:19] <Kamion> we have a few patches, not large
[04:19] <Riff> are you fiddling with the battery ACPI code?
[04:20] <lifeless> me? no.
[04:20] <Kamion> there's a call to update_ac_info() added to battstat/acpi-linux.c
[04:20] <Riff> I mean ubuntu
[04:20] <Riff> hmm
[04:20] <lifeless> bug #940
[04:21] <Kamion> at ACPI_EVENT_BATTERY_INFO
[04:23] <Riff> hmm, it could be an ubuntu bug then
[04:23] <Riff> this makes me less concerned
[04:26] <Kamion> lifeless: generally, if the correct component doesn't exist, use UNKNOWN.
[04:26] <Kamion> (and whine at mdz to create the component ...)
[04:30] <crevetteZulu> fabbione, I put all my log and conf on bmm80.free.fr/ubuntu/xfree86
[04:31] <lamont> diieman: the warty mirror would go faster if it wasn't competing with a sid partial-mirror as well.. :-)
[04:33] <thom> lamont: sawfish is written in lithp, so i'm sure you could work something out
[04:33] <thom> heh
[04:34] <crevetteZulu> lamont, what is "focus follow thought" ?
[04:34] <edd> rofl
[04:34] <lamont> as opposed to following 'pointer', or 'click on window'.  I just want the right window to have focus when I think about it. ;-)
[04:34] <fabbione> crevetteZulu: can you tar them up and send them via email?
[04:35] <fabbione> it's easier for me to keep track of stuff
[04:35] <crevetteZulu> oki
[04:35] <fabbione> fabbione@fabbione.net is a good option :-)
[04:35] <fabbione> thanks
[04:35] <crevetteZulu> oki
[04:35] <crevetteZulu> lamont, because I would propose to test devilspie but it not implement this :)
[04:36] <lamont> hehe
[04:40] <thom> edd: hey, what dirs do you have in /proc/acpi/button ? same to anyone else with a acpi using laptop
[04:40] <seb128> jdub: around ?
[04:40] <edd> thom: my tr1mp is updating windows xp, can't answer right now :)
[04:40] <thom> gar, useless :-)
[04:41] <edd> thom: but, my thinkpad a22m has lid, power, sleep
[04:41] <thom> yeah, the ibms have sane names.
[04:41] <thom> it's all the other crap i'm worried about :-)
[04:41] <edd> well, i'm sorry for having an ibm to hand
[04:41] <edd> i'll try and be crapper next time
[04:41] <Riff> I have lid, power
[04:41] <thom> heheh
[04:42] <Riff> on a Toshiba
[04:42] <Riff> but Toshiba have good ACPI support
[04:42] <thom> Riff: cool, thanks
[04:42] <thom> what do tosh call your batteries, out of interest?
[04:42] <Riff> BAT1 on my machine
[04:43] <thom> *nod*. the HPs apparently call them stuff like C139
[04:43] <Riff> wonderful
[04:44] <edd> BAT0,BAT1 on the ibm
[04:57] <fabbione> daniels: wake up kid
[05:05] <ik5pvx> uff... message size limit
[05:11] <lamont> hrm.. metacity got confused...
[05:11] <lamont> rhythmbox died, but the window remains.
[05:12] <lamont> nm
[05:12] <fabbione> hye lamont 
[05:12] <lamont> morning fabbione
[05:13] <fabbione> ok... this is cool..
[05:14] <fabbione> i can build only X fonts out of a stripped Xfree86 tree
[05:14] <lamont> meaning that there's hope for splitting them out for hoary?
[05:14] <fabbione> that would simply stop you guys from having to upgrade fonts each time i upload X
[05:15] <fabbione> lamont: actually i was thinking to do it in the next 2/3 days
[05:15] <fabbione> it's a package split
[05:15] <lamont> bzzzzt
[05:15] <fabbione> nothing incredible like doing x.org
[05:15] <lamont> that smells like a feature change
[05:15] <fabbione> why?
[05:15] <lamont> adding a new source package
[05:15] <fabbione> it's the same source of xfree86
[05:16] <fabbione> just stripped down
[05:16] <fabbione> no changes to the sources
[05:16] <lamont> but if you can convince mdz/jdub that it's OK, more power to you
[05:16] <fabbione> only to a couple of Imakefiles
[05:16] <fabbione> it would be a "one time" upload
[05:16] <fabbione> once it's there... no more
[05:17] <fabbione> and i can disable building of fonts in x with one line change in debian/rules
[05:17] <lamont> pb is, it's not currently "broken" (just annoying)
[05:17] <fabbione> (or almost)
[05:17] <fabbione> i know
[05:17] <lamont> hence "unnecessary change" ==> "we're frozen, dude"
[05:17] <fabbione> yeah
[05:18] <lamont> maybe simpler to just make sure -ubuntu11 is the perfect thing, so that it's what ships on warty, eh?
[05:18] <lamont> :-)
[05:18] <Kamion> yarrr, /etc/environment and /etc/default/gdm handling is complicated
[05:19] <fabbione> 18880 -rw-r--r--    1 fabbione src      19307067 Aug 31 15:18 xfonts86-4.3.0.tar.gz
[05:19] <fabbione> 58452 -rw-r--r--    1 fabbione src      59789181 Apr 21 07:34 xfree86-4.3.0.tar.gz
[05:19] <fabbione> lamont: see why?
[05:19] <fabbione> lamont: there will be an ubuntu12 at least
[05:19] <fabbione> lamont: but not that urgent
[05:19] <fabbione> ubuntu11 has been a huge improvements over < ubuntu10
[05:31] <Kamion> seb128: are we going to merge gdm 2.6.0.4-1 from Debian?
[05:31] <Kamion> seb128: I need some of the adjustments it made to LANG handling
[05:31] <Kamion> seb128: (I'm happy to merge just that one change though, and can do that now)
[05:31] <seb128> Kamion: hum
[05:33] <seb128> we have some changes in the warty package
[05:34] <seb128> if the change is easy to merge, could you just to this for the moment, I'll try to have a look on the new debian package to merge the warty changes in it latter
[05:35] <Kamion> it's just init and postinst
[05:35] <Kamion> ok
[05:38] <pitti> AAAARGH! Since when the first installed Warty user has complete root capabilities through sudo?
[05:38] <Kamion> pitti: last week
[05:39] <pitti> Kamion: but why shall we go back to Windows 95, security-wise?
[05:39] <pitti> Kamion: up to now I told every Linux user that he should work as a normal user to avoid system damage...
[05:39] <seb128> don't shoot the messenger :)
[05:40] <pitti> seb128, Kamion: I don't want to shoot anybody :-), I just got very, very frightened...
[05:40] <pitti> I will talk to mdz about this.
[05:40] <Kamion> I'm not enormously happy with it myself, but everyone seemed to think it was a good idea *shrug*
[05:41] <seb128> for my part I don't like to have a system without the root password after the installation
[05:41] <seb128> that's kind of weird
[05:41] <pitti> But actually the separation of system administartion and normal usage was one of the best features of Unix
[05:41] <ik5pvx> I don't like it either, but I'm trying to sticking with it to see if I can get used to it
[05:41] <pitti> seb128: FULL ACK. Then we could as well have all people work as root
[05:41] <rburton> pitti: it has been said this will be an option for systems where it isn't a good idea
[05:42] <rburton> it's a great idea for home system, bad idea for office systems
[05:42] <pitti> rburton: IMNSHO it isn't a good idea on _every_ system. *shrug*
[05:42] <Kamion> do you mean "on any system"?
[05:43] <pitti> Kamion: right, I do. Non-native english...
[05:43] <Kamion> both are valid English but mean different things :-)
[05:43] <pitti> Kamion: I know the difference, just a typo. BTW, d-i now works just _great_!
[05:43] <pitti> Kamion: no more silly network questions
[05:43] <rburton> i think sudo is great. we're moving to giving our admins sudo root access to avoid typing in that nasty root password all the time
[05:44] <pitti> rburton: yes, but then we should install two users: an administrator and a day-to-day user, not just one administrator
[05:44] <rburton> why? i can't do root things unless i sudo
[05:45] <pitti> rburton: but what keeps a virus or other malicious program to use sudo as well?
[05:45] <pitti> s/keeps to/keeps from/
[05:46] <pitti> rburton: entering a password is only required at the first time, then it is kept for a while
[05:46] <rburton> in the end, little difference. but the less the root password is shipped around, the better
[05:46] <thom> pitti: we have tty_tickets turned on, by the way
[05:46] <thom> pitti: so the virus would have to be running on the same tty as the user sudoing
[05:47] <pitti> thom: do you think that is uncommon?
[05:47] <Kamion> that would be the normal case, I'd have thought
[05:47] <pitti> thom: if I do some admin stuff under X, then go to Evolution and download a virus mail?
[05:48] <pitti> thom: will that work with tty_tickets?
[05:48] <ik5pvx> wouldn't that be bound to some pty ?
[05:48] <thom> pitti: sure, each x term gets a different tty - look at the output of w
[05:49] <thom> sudo enabled apps like gnome-system-tools would require testing, tho. i have no idea how that works
[05:50] <pitti> thom: but normally users won't start programs in xterm (okay I do, but I'm not an average user)
[05:50] <pitti> thom: thanks for that info. I will look at it, at least it seems not to be as bad as I initially thought.
[05:51] <thom> pitti: i suspect the correct thing for X applications (ie, things running on :0) is to not cache a ticket
[05:51] <ik5pvx> what I've noticed so far, is that I open 4 xterms and fire "sudo bash" in one of them much like I use to run "su" in plain debian
[05:52] <Kamion> thom: YES
[05:52] <thom> (which is the behaviour OS X has, also)
[05:53] <Kamion> it's crucial that people get warned when something is requesting root privilege
[05:53] <thom> but we need to fix up gksu to use sudo anyway
[05:53] <thom> Kamion: *nod*
[05:53] <Kamion> I thought the consensus was that we needed to fix all the .desktop files
[05:53] <Kamion> since gksu/gksudo looks at argv[0]  to figure out how to act
[05:54] <thom> i hadn't seen any consensus, but if that's the case, great
[05:58] <Kamion> lamont: have any of the amd64 buildds tried to build debian-installer yet? All the build-deps should be there now.
[06:03] <lamont> Kamion: checking
[06:04] <lamont> pcmcia-storage-modules-2.6.7-5-amd64-generic-di dep-wait cleared.
[06:04] <pitti> mdz: I would still like it best to have a strict root/user separation, but maybe I'm just too conservative
[06:05] <Kamion> lamont: aha
[06:05] <Kamion> let me know if it breaks, I'll apply a hammer
[06:05] <lamont> ok
[06:05] <mdz> pitti: it is a usability problem for the user to remember two passwords, especially when one of them is almost never used
[06:05] <pitti> mdz: just because the people are misled by windows, we still should teach them about different roles about using a computer, don't?
[06:06] <pitti> mdz: agreed about the remembering of the root password. hmmm.
[06:06] <pitti> mdz: what about setting up the same password for root by default?
[06:06] <thom> pitti: but then user changes password, root doesn't change, more confusion
[06:06] <thom> (and at that point, you might just as well use sudo)
[06:07] <pitti> mdz: not for people used to Unix already
[06:07] <mdz> pitti: yeah, we discussed that and it was as thom says
[06:07] <mdz> pitti: people used to unix will immediately "sudo passwd root"
[06:07] <Kamion> We can easily set timestamp_timeout=0 for just the initially created user
[06:07] <pitti> thom: I think there is a difference: scripts may use sudo, but cannot login as root
[06:07] <pitti> mdz: okay, if this was already discussed to death, I will shut up.
[06:08] <thom> setting the timestamp seems reasonable
[06:08] <Kamion> pitti: this is a pretty new thing, I think discussion is still perfectly reasonable ...
[06:09] <pitti> Kamion: I will try to do some bad things with the sudo approach. I know too little about it to really give competent statements, I think.
[06:10] <Kamion> base-config (2.44ubuntu2) UNRELEASED; urgency=low
[06:10] <Kamion>   * lib/menu/passwd: Set timestamp_timeout=0 for the initial user's sudoers
[06:10] <Kamion>     entry.
[06:10] <pitti> mdz: BTW, many friends of mine don't know what 'sudo' is (sudo passwd root), but they are used to different computer usage roles.
[06:11] <mdz> pitti: the last screen of the installer should explain how to set the root password
[06:11] <mdz> Kamion: did that make it onto your todo list?
[06:11] <mdz> the last screen of base-config, that is
[06:11] <pitti> mdz: and how to disable universal user admin rights
[06:11] <Kamion> the last screen, not the password setting screen?
[06:12] <mdz> timestamp_timeout=0 makes it much less usable for the command line
[06:12] <mdz> Kamion: what do you think?
[06:12] <pitti> Kamion, mdz: instead of printing three or four commands, can we have a small script for that?
[06:12] <thom> mdz: nod. can we set it just for things running on :0 ?
[06:12] <Kamion> I guess it's a final-message thing
[06:12] <mdz> thom: I think it's only global
[06:12] <mdz> Kamion: yeah, I was thinking it was, but then, the last message is worded such that people don't generally read it
[06:12] <mdz> "this says I'm done <dismiss>"
[06:12] <Kamion> I'd be more comfortable with it not caching tickets by default
[06:13] <Kamion> I think the change will be an easier sell that way
[06:13] <pitti> Kamion: agreed
[06:13] <Kamion> mdz: true, but that applies to most of the installer
[06:13] <Kamion> "this is some informational text, I don't need to read this <dismiss>"
[06:14] <pitti> Kamion: "Security advice, please read carefully:" ?
[06:14] <mdz> the default configuration should at least please the beginner *or* the power user as much as possible
[06:14] <pitti> Kamion: there will still be people who ignore it, but they won't care much about security anyway
[06:14] <mdz> if we try to please both, I think we end up pleasing neither
[06:14] <Kamion> mdz: easy to put a comment in /etc/sudoers about it ... power users can remove it
[06:14] <pitti> If we have to pick, we should pick the beginner.
[06:14] <mdz> and it is much easier for the power user to customize the configuration
[06:15] <pitti> yes
[06:15] <mdz> pitti: right
[06:15] <Kamion> I don't think having to enter your *own* password each time you want to do something rootly is a usability problem
[06:15] <pitti> although from a security POV it should be secure by default. Wham. Contradiction.
[06:15] <pitti> but I think you cannot have both, secure and user friendly contradict inherently.
[06:16] <Kamion> that's a bit fatalistic :-)
[06:16] <pitti> Kamion: no, in fact I think it is one of the basic wisdoms of system construction
[06:17] <mdz> sudo fulfills the safety requirement quite well, I think
[06:17] <fabbione> mdz: would you consider a package split a feature?
[06:17] <mdz> especially with no caching, the user will always be prompted before they begin a potentially dangerous action
[06:17] <pitti> mdz: but still this should be explained somewhere
[06:17] <mdz> fabbione: context?
[06:17] <fabbione> mdz: splitting xfonts* out of xfree86*. one upload for the rest of the life and that's it
[06:18] <mdz> and in reality, it is actually quite close from a security perspective
[06:18] <mdz> anyone who is able to take over a uid of a user who uses su *or* sudo has root
[06:18] <Mithrandir> mdz: fwiw, on MOSX apps, if you are in a "dangerous" application, you have the lock in the bottom right.. would something similar work?
[06:18] <mdz> Mithrandir: that'd be neat, something to look at for Hoary maybe
[06:19] <mdz> fabbione: splitting the source package you mean?
[06:19] <pitti> mdz, Kamion: right now, gksu asks for a root password, which I don't have. I assume this will get fixed?
[06:19] <fabbione> mdz: yes. same binary packages.
[06:19] <lamont> mdz: context can be found in scrollback at ~0818 PDT
[06:19] <Mithrandir> I don't think copying what windows or macos is doing just because they are doing it is any good, but looking at them and what they do well is, IMHO, very useful.
[06:19] <Kamion> pitti: that's definitely considered a bug
[06:19] <mdz> fabbione: I would prefer to avoid it at this stage.  this is something that has gone into XSF svn, I assume?
[06:20] <Kamion> pitti: (that we use gksu rather than gksudo, that is)
[06:20] <fabbione> mdz: basically each xfree86 upload will NOT force users to upgrade 100Mb of fonts for nothing
[06:20] <mdz> yes, I believe jdub is fixing that
[06:20] <fabbione> mdz: no something i did in my spare time.
[06:20] <fabbione> s/spare/hobby/ or whatever
[06:20] <fabbione> it's not in svn yet and it won't be for sarge
[06:21] <pitti> mdz: good news! sid's and warty's hotplug packages already support per-package usb usermaps, so I can modify libgphoto to automatically allow camera access to users
[06:21] <fabbione> pitti: cool... because i bought a digital camera today :-9
[06:22] <pitti> fabbione: well, if it supports usb-storage you won't have a problem anyway
[06:22] <pitti> fabbione: does it?
[06:22] <fabbione> pitti: i can't say yet.. battery has to charge for 12 hours the first time :(((
[06:22] <mdz> fabbione: it would be nice, but stability is more important that convenience now that we are in feature freeze
[06:22] <mdz> pitti: great!
[06:22] <pitti> mdz: it is a small change, no code modification necessary
[06:23] <pitti> mdz: sorry, I think that did not apply to gphoto, did it?
[06:23] <fabbione> mdz: if i do it and it works.. would you accept it?
[06:26] <seb128> mdz: could we get bugzilla components for xscreensaver, gnome-applets and trashapplet ?
[06:28] <daniels> fabbione: ber
[06:29] <daniels> thom: my OmniBook called my batteries BAT0 and BAT1
[06:30] <fabbione> daniels: ?
[06:30] <daniels> fabbione: 'wake up kid'
[06:30] <daniels> thom: also, why did you give me 842, take it back, then give it to me, and seemingly take it back again?
[06:31] <thom> daniels: didn't. i gave you something completely different, took it back, then gave you the correct bug
[06:32] <fabbione> daniels: oh... hmmm... i can't remember...
[06:32] <daniels> thom: oh, right
[06:32] <fabbione> daniels: i am getting old
[06:32] <daniels> yes
[06:32] <daniels> fabbione: yes ;P
[06:32] <fabbione> daniels: oh yeah.. it was about the xfonts...
[06:32] <fabbione> daniels: just read above
[06:33] <daniels> fabbione: sure, i have split source packages for xfonts ready to go
[06:33] <fabbione> daniels: so do i
[06:34] <fabbione> Extracting source xfonts86-4.3.0.tar.gz ... successful.
[06:34] <daniels> fabbione: yes, but yours suck :P
[06:34] <daniels> don't build them, it's a waste of time
[06:34] <fabbione> daniels: it's a waste of bw each time we upload X
[06:35] <daniels> build them once as little-endian, let the others cop the tiny overhead of byte-swapping; core fonts are shit anyway
[06:35] <daniels> fabbione: yes, i know. that's why i advocate splitting the fonts.
[06:35] <daniels> but, you can just do it like my xfonts package, which only ever runs 'install'
[06:35] <daniels> no building, no invocation of imake, no gzip
[06:35] <fabbione> daniels: we still build them once... just do it once and stop doing it.. that was the idea
[06:35] <daniels> you just ship some pre-gzipped little-endian fonts
[06:35] <daniels> fabbione: right. do you want the source package that does that, and nothing else? it's right here :)
[06:36] <fabbione> daniels:  have a package already
[06:36] <fabbione> we still need mdz blessing for anything
[06:36] <daniels> ok
[06:36] <fabbione> otherwise it's hoary feature
[06:36] <daniels> i'll put mine up tomorrow ehN i wake uip (it's 0236), if you could put yours up in the meantime that would be great
[06:36] <fabbione> at that point fonts will be "irrelevant" from xfree86
[06:36] <fabbione> daniels: i will see if i finish with all the details
[06:36] <daniels> ok
[06:36] <fabbione> i am cleaning up the debs now
[06:37] <fabbione> tho i have spend only a hour or so on it
[06:37] <daniels> but yeah, I just did a neat little trick with a for loop and dpkg -L
[06:37] <daniels> or reading *.install, or whatever it was
[06:37] <daniels> but either way, end result was i just put the .pcf.gz's into a few separate directories, tared it up and called it a source package, and the build just uses install(1)
[06:38] <daniels> (they didn't all convert cleanly to ttf, and i didn't have time)
[06:38] <fabbione> daniels: no i actually stripped down to minimum the xfree86.orig.tar.gz and still build them.
[06:38] <fabbione> it doesn't take long really
[06:38] <daniels> why?
[06:38] <daniels> it actually takes a bit, and it's totally unnecessary
[06:38] <fabbione> because it's easy to keep in sync with xfree86 tree
[06:39] <fabbione> it's all patched and nice and dandy :-)
[06:39] <daniels> which never changes :P
[06:39] <fabbione> + you need to provide the source anyway
[06:39] <daniels> i dunno, i just figure that if you're going to do it, you might as well do it right
[06:39] <fabbione> and a build method
[06:39] <daniels> dude, that's close enough to source. anyone who cares that much about that crap can go bitch about sounds without source.
[06:40] <daniels> i can see not shipping gzip'ed, and also that being a good idea
[06:40] <daniels> but i don't see the point of always building them
[06:40] <mdz> pitti: I was talking about the font stuff
[06:40] <fabbione> daniels: always = one time
[06:40] <fabbione> daniels: of course... if you do it right
[06:40] <daniels> fabbione: still don't see the point, to be honest
[06:40] <daniels> i just think it's overengineering, and a waste of time :) but hey, it's not my time being wasted, so 'sup to you
[06:40] <mdz> fabbione: I would really prefer not to change the packaging in that way when we are so close to release; the benefit to users of the Warty release is practically nil
[06:41] <daniels> in the meantime, I'm going to attempt to garner some sleep
[06:41] <daniels> mdz: it's a huge boon to me, let me tell you that now
[06:41] <mdz> seb128: yes, I'll add them
[06:41] <fabbione> mdz: ok.. it will wait hoary and daniels packages :P
[06:41] <daniels> mdz: the appearance (e.g. binary) doesn't change
[06:41] <seb128> mdz: ok, thanks
[06:41] <daniels> ho hum
[06:41] <fabbione> mdz: i will send you lamont complains on each X upload ... ;)
[06:42] <mdz> seb128: done
[06:42] <seb128> thanks
[06:43] <fabbione> mdz: anyway.. i was kidding before.. it's fine by me.
[06:43] <fabbione> it's there and it's ready
[06:44] <seb128> mdz: libgtop2 (which is a part of the GNOME desktop) has just made a soname change. Warty has only 2 reverse depends on it, there is no problem to update to the new version now (I've the 3 packages ready, just checking) ?
[06:44] <mdz> seb128: sounds fine
[06:44] <seb128> ok
[06:57] <mdz> pitti: did you see my mail to the list about pmount/gvm?  how are we going to handle unmounting?
[06:58] <pitti> mdz: I'm at the phone, will return later
[07:20] <pitti> mdz: I'm back, sorry, was a long talk.
[07:20] <pitti> mdz: I read it.
[07:21] <pitti> mdz: To me it seems that the most consistent and intuitive way of umounting the device is to close the nautilus window
[07:21] <pitti> mdz: but the problem is what to do if there is still a process using the device
[07:22] <mdz> pitti: fuser -k? :-)
[07:22] <pitti> mdz: isn't there a context menu entry of "ejecting" the device?
[07:22] <mdz> closing the nautilus window sounds quite nice; is that actually straightforward to implement?
[07:22] <mdz> I did not see one
[07:22] <pitti> mdz: the safest method is still to do the ejecting manually
[07:22] <pitti> mdz: I don't know anything about the gnome stuff, so I cannot say how easy it is
[07:22] <mdz> pitti: this is a USB flash reader; the hardware doesn't actually have an 'eject' concept
[07:23] <mdz> but I stil need to unmount it before i can disconnect the device or remove the card from the slot
[07:23] <pitti> mdz: I would still prefer either a context menu (umount, eject, release, whatever) or a small icon
[07:23] <Mithrandir> mdz: nautilus could send "window closed" messages onto the dbus? ;)
[07:23] <pitti> mdz: Windows calls it "safe remove" IIRC
[07:23] <mdz> seb128: how is eject/remove supposed to work in nautilus?
[07:24] <seb128> mdz: right click on the device icon, eject/umount 
[07:24] <pitti> seb128: ah, that's why I'm unable to umount the device on my iBook :-)
[07:25] <mdz> hmm
[07:25] <mdz> I didn't get a device icon
[07:25] <seb128> in the computer place ?
[07:25] <mdz> neither on the desktop, nor the Computer icon
[07:25] <seb128> is the device listed in fstab ?
[07:25] <mdz> no, this was a removable device mounted by pmount
[07:25] <mdz> via g-v-m
[07:25] <seb128> hum
[07:25] <seb128> nautilus uses fstab
[07:26] <mdz> nautilus should rather use mtab, shouldn't it?
[07:26] <seb128> hum, yes
[07:26] <seb128> but I think it manages only the devices listed in fstab
[07:27] <pitti> seb128: npmccallum already prepared a version which uses pmount
[07:27] <pitti> seb128: and doesn't need an fstab entry
[07:27] <seb128> ok, cool
[07:28] <pitti> seb128: is it possible to include an eject/umount/whatever option in the normal nautilus menu? I don't have a context menu
[07:28] <pitti> seb128: (because Ubuntu doesn't automatically install mouse button emulation)
[07:29] <seb128> pitti: I don't think so, but I'm sure there is a keyboard shortcut to open the menu
[07:30] <pitti> seb128: do you also happen to know which?
[07:30] <seb128> I'm searching .... 
[07:31] <seb128> I've not given it directly because I don't remember :)
[07:32] <pitti> seb128: don't bother, if you don't know I can google myself
[07:33] <pitti> seb128: Shift-F10
[07:33] <seb128> oh yes
[07:33] <seb128> I've tried ctrl+F10 
[07:33] <seb128> but not shift :)
[07:34] <pitti> seb128: so do you see any obstacles for adding the same context menu entry for pmounted devices which don't have a fstab entry?
[07:34] <seb128> no
[07:35] <seb128> should not be a problem
[07:37] <pitti> seb128: this will require to use 'pumount /dev/foo' instead of 'umount /dev/foo', other changes should not be necessary
[07:37] <seb128> yeah
[07:42] <pitti> fabbione: congrats! I just installed the latest warty ppc daily build, and it installed X without a single question. Cool!
[07:45] <fabbione> pitti: does it work? ;)
[07:46] <pitti> fabbione: like a charm :-)
[07:46] <pitti> fabbione: it even picked the correct resolution
[07:46] <pitti> fabbione: my last daily build cd set up 800x600
[07:46] <fabbione> nice :-)
[07:47] <pitti> fabbione: however, I did not look which driver it uses, have to do that tomorrow. I have to go now (Tae Kwon Do training)
[07:47] <pitti> fabbione: but even if it is the vesa driver, it is just a nice install experience
[07:47] <pitti> see you tomorrow, guys!
[07:47] <fabbione> pitti: thanks :-)))
[07:47] <fabbione> have fun
[08:08] <mjg59> I'm testing Sounder 7 on an old Digital laptop
[08:08] <mjg59> It's got a CMD646 IDE chipset. Whenever ubuntu tries to touch stuff on the IDE bus, I get DMA timeout errors.
[08:08] <mjg59> Is there any way to disable DMA?
[08:09] <dieman> ow
[08:11] <dieman> mjg59: ide=nodma?
[08:13] <Kamion> mdz: so, am I doing the timestamp_timeout=0 thing or not? I'm about to upload base-config for another reason ...
[08:13] <mjg59> dieman: Does giving that to the kernel work, or does it need to be a module paramater?
[08:13] <mdz> Kamion: it's OK with me if you and pitti agree
[08:14] <Kamion> hm, he's left
[08:14] <Kamion> OK, we'll try it out and see what people make of the dailies
[08:14] <mdz> Kamion: it sounded like there was a consensus on #warthogs
[08:14] <mdz> apart from me, anyway; I'm undecided
[08:15] <Kamion> well, it's easily reversible if need be
[08:18] <mjg59> Oh, no, hang on
[08:18] <mjg59> "PCI: Device 000:00:09.0 not available because of resource collisions"
[08:20] <dieman> mjg59: oh god, i dont know if you can just give that to the kernel
[08:21] <dieman> mjg59: is it trying to use acpi?
[08:21] <mjg59> No, it's too ancient for that
[08:21] <dieman> hmm
[08:21] <mjg59> It's a Pentium 233
[08:21] <dieman> pci=biosirq?
[08:21] <mjg59> Might be worth a go
[08:21] <mjg59> I'm just going to skip loading the module for now
[08:28] <Kamion> do we want ACPI (e.g. fan module) support in the installer?
[08:28] <Kamion> if so, does it count as a feature? :-) I'm going to need to pull in various bits from unstable ...
[08:52] <Kamion> hm, I think I can convince main-menu to save the debconf priority when you back up and then restore it when you select a menu item
[08:52] <Kamion> that would make d-i's backup behaviour much more intuitive
[08:55] <mdz> that would be excellent
[08:55] <mdz> Kamion: does Keybuk's laptop overheat itself during the install if we don't?
[08:57] <lamont__> burning keybuks legs could be considered a bug or a feature, depending on perspective... :-)
[08:57] <Kamion> dunno ...
[08:57] <Kamion> mmm, crispy fried Keybuk
[08:58] <lamont__> cranky crispy fried Keybuk
[08:59] <dieman> heh
[09:09] <mdz> hey, Keybuk is around; he just posted to the list
[09:09] <mdz> he's just hiding
[09:10] <mdz> Kamion: can you send him an email and ask him about the ACPI stuff?
[09:18] <mjg59> thom: Found a laptop without ACPI or a dmi table
[09:46] <Kamion> Keybuk: do you think we need ACPI fan module support in d-i?
[09:47] <Kamion> as in, will your laptop overheat if we don't?
[09:47] <Keybuk> it's a good point
[09:47] <Keybuk> I suspect the answer is yet
[09:47] <Keybuk> yes
[09:48] <Keybuk> if the kernel has ACPI support enabled on boot, then it'll tell modern laptops not to do any power management of their own -- so yeah, will need the thermal + fan modules loaded
[09:49] <Kamion> Aug 31 19:49:21 (none) user.info main-menu[505] : INFO: Restoring default debconf priority 'critical'
[09:49] <Kamion> so much better
[10:33] <jdub> Kamion: yo yo
[10:33] <jdub> Kamion: did we decide against hdparm in d-i?
[10:34] <jdub> seb128: around
[10:35] <mdz> is there some way to tell pbbuttonsd (or whatever would be responsible) to set the fan to a certain minimum speed?
[10:35] <mdz> the fan in this thing is constantly speeding up and slowing down, and it's very distracting
[10:36] <elmo> mdz: no, the fan stuff on new powerbooks seems to be hardcoded into the kernel, it's very distressing
[10:36] <elmo> (well, I'm assuming you're on a powerbook...)
[10:36] <mdz> this is a desktop, but it seems to support the same power management interface
[10:36] <mdz> /dev/pmu and all that
[10:36] <Keybuk> on ACPI PCs you can fiddle with /proc/acpi to change your fan trip points; dunno if there's a Macequivalent
[10:37] <mdz> that was my question :-)
[10:37] <elmo> mdz: if it's using therm_adt76x or whatever it is, same problem
[10:37] <elmo> if it's something else, there may be /proc hooks
[10:37] <mdz> seems to use therm_windtunnel
[10:38] <mdz> well great
[10:38] <mdz> in fact, loading that module seems to have helped a lot
[10:38] <mdz> Temp: 34.5 C  Hyst: 75.0 C  OS: 80.0 C
[10:38] <mdz> Reducing overheating limit to 65.0 C (Hyst: 60.0 C)
[10:38] <mdz> CPU-temp: 34.7 C, Case: 32.3 C,  Fan: 0 (tuned -11)
[10:40] <Kamion> jdub: I think we decided for it, I just haven't done it yet ...
[10:40] <Kamion> jdub: in fact, how about I file a bug so that I remember
[10:40] <jdub> ahr, ok :)
[10:49] <edd> thom?
[10:49] <edd> slacker.
[10:50] <edd> i like all the white plastic - you could use a board marker to take notes on it!
[10:50] <Keybuk> lol
[10:51] <Keybuk> they're really going for white-plastic at the moment, aren't they
[10:54] <fabbione> Keybuk: thanks for testing
[10:54] <Keybuk> fabbione: other than baby-daniel's failure to upload a working version of discover1-data ... it looked great
[10:54] <fabbione> good...
[10:59] <pitti> mdz: we still need a new group for allowing local user access to removeable devices. I'd favor a single group for USB sticks, cameras and FireWire devices, do you think we should split that into several groups?
[11:00] <jdub> Keybuk: the best feature of the new imac is that the old imacs are going to be cheaper!
[11:01] <mjg59> finger isn't in the default install?
[11:01] <jdub> no
[11:01] <jdub> it's in supported
[11:02] <mjg59> sudo gives warnings if it's run on a system installed without networking
[11:02] <mjg59> "unable to lookup foo via gethostbyname()"
[11:03] <mjg59> I gave it a hostname, but the only entry in /etc/hosts is localhost
[11:03] <mjg59> (Sounder 7)
[11:07] <thom> edd: sup?
[11:08] <mjg59> thom: I have an "interesting" laptop for you
[11:08] <thom> mjg59: yeah, that looked kinda scary
[11:08] <thom> mjg59: what is it?
[11:08] <mjg59> thom: It's a Digital Hinote - circa 1997, at a guess
[11:08] <mjg59> Pentium 233
[11:08] <thom> yow
[11:08] <thom> RUN AWAY!
[11:09] <mjg59> Only thing that springs to mind is to have a kernel with apm support (the kernel will fall back to it if acpi fails) and then check the apm bios for a battery
[11:09] <edd> thom: acpi results for you
[11:09] <thom> edd: ahah :-)
[11:10] <pitti> Kamion: still there?
[11:10] <thom> mjg59: seems a reasonable move
[11:10] <Kamion> pitti: not for much longer, but yeah
[11:10] <edd> thom: on the sony tr1mp there are two directories, 'lid' and 'power', inside lid is another directory, LID0 with files 'info' and 'state'. inside power is PWRB, with one file 'info'
[11:11] <thom> excellent
[11:11] <thom> that's what i wanted to hear
[11:11] <pitti> Kamion: we still need another group to put the first user in, for accessing removeable devices like cameras, usb sticks, etc.
[11:12] <pitti> Kamion: we want to restrict mount/umount access to this group 
[11:12] <pitti> Kamion: and also gphoto device node access
[11:12] <pitti> Kamion: but this must be done already in base-config
[11:13] <pitti> Kamion: the name was slightly discussed in #810, but it did not come to a conclusion
[11:14] <tvon|lurking> IRT: Warty Bounties: GNOME GUI for bittorrent - I'd suggest gnome-btdownload
[11:14] <tvon|lurking> http://gnome-bt.sourceforge.net/
[11:15] <Keybuk> cute
[11:16] <edd> Great for stealing things!
[11:16] <edd> So, do we get libdvdcss too?
[11:16] <jdub> no :)
[11:17] <edd> Ah, so warty will let me steal movies but not play the ones I own :)
[11:17] <Gman> isn't the background image enough?
[11:17] <Gman> [sorry, couldn't resist] 
[11:17] <jdub> tvon|lurking: you can add that as a comment to the wiki if you want :)
[11:17] <tvon|lurking> sure
[11:17] <Kamion> pitti: unless it has to be a global static group (in which case it has to go into Debian's base-passwd, at least in svn), I don't really mind about the name
[11:18] <Kamion> pitti: you're welcome to modify base-config yourself to add that group once the name and function are decided
[11:18] <pitti>  Kamion: I think a static group is not required, a system group will suffice
[11:18] <pitti> Kamion: Okay, I will do. What do you think of 'plugdev'?
[11:18] <pitti> Kamion: 'devices 
[11:18] <pitti> Kamion: 'devices' is too generic, I think
[11:19] <doko> mdz: there was no response to the proposal of syncing the python2.3 package from unstable. what should we do now?
[11:19] <Kamion> I agree devices is too generic; plugdev is OK, I guess, doesn't really grab me but none of the names so far have done :)
[11:19] <pitti> Kamion: same for me, don't have a better idea for a short and good name
[11:19] <lamont> Mithrandir: still awake?
[11:22] <ploum> Just a question
[11:22] <ploum> where does "warty" name come from ?
[11:23] <jdub> ploum: it's the warty warthog release :-)
[11:23] <jdub> ploum: 'warty' sort of means 'patchy' or 'a bit buggy'
[11:24] <jdub> ploum: and we thought the first release might be a bit warty ;)
[11:24] <ploum> jdub, in french warty means "verol" and that's not pretty
[11:24] <ploum> but I don't understand "warthog' 
[11:24] <ploum> (babelfish doesn't help me ;) )
[11:24] <jdub> a warthog is an animal in africa
[11:25] <jdub> not a very pretty one ;)
[11:25] <tvon|lurking> hrm.  Latest upgrade/dist-upgrade seems to hange on 'Preconfiguring packages...'
[11:25] <jdub> google images should help you out :)
[11:25] <ploum> jdub, yes, indeed
[11:25] <ploum> I see
[11:25] <ploum> "phacochre" in french :-)
[11:25] <ploum> http://www.seaworld.org/AnimalBytes/images/warthog.gif
[11:25] <ploum> and Ubuntu ?
[11:26] <pitti> Kamion: actually the new group does the same as 'cdrom', but this name is misleading for the new intention.
[11:26] <mdz> pitti: I think a single group is better
[11:26] <pitti> Kamion: the problem with a new group would be how to handle a seamless update from woody and older wartys
[11:27] <pitti> Kamion: if I just upload a new restricted mount, this would break upgrades, i. e. the users could not mount any more
[11:27] <jdub> ploum: ubuntu is defined on the wiki (in the FAQ)
[11:27] <ploum> jdub, sorry
[11:27] <Keybuk> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu
[11:27] <mjg59> Oh, arse
[11:28] <jdub> Keybuk: ooh, can you add that to the wiki?
[11:28] <mjg59> This laptop is insane - it's got an i82365 /and/ a yenta
[11:28] <mjg59> 2.6 is massively unhappy with that
[11:28] <Keybuk> jdub: k.
[11:29] <jdub> mdz: are we going to have kernel pacakges to test from herbert soon?
[11:30] <Keybuk> jdub: you getting two-weeks-to-release edginess?
[11:31] <jdub> very much so
[11:31] <jdub> i love it :)
[11:31] <pitti> ploum: actually, my first thought of 'Warthogs' was Harry Potter's 'Hogwarts' backwards :-)
[11:31] <jdub> haven't got this buzz with gnome for ages ;)
[11:32] <ploum> pitti, I don't read Harry Potter but I can imagine
[11:32] <spiv> jdub: When the buzz wears off Ubuntu releases, what are you going to do for your next fix?
[11:32] <jdub> terraforming
[11:32] <jdub> time-based terraforming
[11:33] <jdub> daniels: ping
[11:34] <tvon|lurking> hrm
[11:34] <tvon|lurking> along with my 'preconfigure packages' hang with apt-get upgrade, I have a bunch of "/bin/sh /tmp/xserver-xfee86.config....." processes running 
[11:34] <tvon|lurking> perhaps because  I tried the upgrade a number of times
[11:34] <Keybuk> jdub: http://descent.netsplit.com/~scott/kids.mp3 -- but for releases
[11:35] <pitti> mdz: any idea how to smoothly handle upgrades to the 'plugdev'-restricted mount/camera/whatever system?
[11:35] <mdz> pitti: specifically?
[11:35] <pitti> mdz: we should not just put every existing user with uid > 1000 into that group
[11:36] <mdz> jdub: I was supposed to have them today, but he had trouble connecting to the ssh service I set up for him
[11:36] <mdz> pitti: oh, I don't think we need to worry too much about that, just do it in base-config
[11:36] <jdub> mdz: ahr
[11:36] <mdz> pitti: we can send an email to the sounder list about it
[11:36] <pitti> mdz: agreed for the sounders, but what about upgrades from woody?
[11:37] <pitti> mdz: I thought woody upgrades should be supported?
[11:37] <hypatia> Afternoon...
[11:37] <mdz> pitti: they are, but we do not expect to make such intrusive changes to their working configuration
[11:37] <mdz> pitti: this is not something which is required for a successful upgrade
[11:37] <pitti> mdz: agreed, but we have to explain that somewhere
[11:38] <jdub> "What ought to happen is desktop Linux proponents should wake up and switch to Mac OS instead."
[11:38] <jdub> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1641114,00.asp?kc=EWRSS03129TX1K0000616
[11:38] <pitti> mdz: I think somebody would kill me if I added a high-priority debconf note
[11:38] <thom> hypatia: new laptop?
[11:38] <hypatia> thom: Yep!
[11:38] <thom> what'ya get?
[11:38] <hypatia> Fujitsu Lifebook
[11:38] <ploum> I've just seen in the wiki that you are looking for :
[11:38] <ploum>  GNOME GUI for bittorrent
[11:39] <thom> ahr
[11:39] <hypatia> spiv said "they're awesome, you realise the magic for the X config is insane?"
[11:39] <thom> the crusoe ones?
[11:39] <ploum> well, it's maybe a good idea to start learning gnome-python
[11:39] <hypatia> but he thinks I'm OK because it has a normal aspect ratio
[11:39] <hypatia> thom: no, centrino, alas
[11:39] <thom> i wonder if they get the code morphing right yet
[11:39] <thom> oh, bugger
[11:40] <hypatia> The nuttiness with finding a US vendor has caused me to lower my standards.
[11:40] <ploum> I will try this someday
[11:40] <jdub> hypatia: i was going to recommend the dell x300 to you
[11:40] <mjg59> Arse. What I want to do appears to be impossible with 2.6.
[11:40] <thom> jdub: dell? EWWWW!
[11:40] <Keybuk> "The best Linux desktops are still beyond the skills of average mortals and enjoy very limited application support."
[11:40] <Keybuk> heh
[11:40] <jdub> thom: that's what i thought, but the x300 is great.
[11:40] <hypatia> jdub: thanks for the thought anyway.
[11:41] <jdub> SCOTT WINS A PRIZE
[11:41] <hypatia> jdub: Next time I will be around for wider soundings :)
[11:41] <jdub> Your authorization is required for a mailing list subscription request
[11:41] <jdub> approval:
[11:41] <jdub>     For:  scott@canonical.com
[11:41] <jdub>     List: sounder@lists.no-name-yet.com
[11:41] <jdub> 
[11:41] <thom> jdub: i'd not put money on a dell laptop making it past the first month these days
[11:42] <pitti> mdz: so I just do the mods and we put a stanza about this into the release notes?
[11:42] <mdz> pitti: sure
[11:43] <mdz> pitti: we can't provide exactly the same experience on upgrades, since we won't risk intrusive changes to the user's configuration
[11:43] <pitti> mdz: okay, will do. BTW, do you agree to my propsed todo list?
[11:43] <mdz> pitti: I need to review it
[11:43] <Keybuk> jdub: I played with an x300 about the time I bought my new laptop, it didn't feel solid at all
[11:43] <Keybuk> I got the impression it wouldn't last ten minutes in my rucksack
[11:43] <pitti> mdz: can you reply to the mail please? I'm going to bed now.
[11:44] <mdz> pitti: but in a nutshell, you need to finish the implementation of the removable device support as soon as possible so that you can focus on bugfixing for the release
[11:44] <Gman> never buy a dell laptop
[11:44] <jdub> Keybuk: which series is yours again?
[11:44] <jdub> Keybuk: nc8000?
[11:44] <pitti> mdz: yeah, I will work that out with npmccallum 
[11:45] <mdz> pitti: I will respond to the mail when I have a chance
[11:45] <pitti> mdz: thanks! good night!
[11:45] <Keybuk> nc4010
[11:45] <Keybuk> the 8000 is *huge*
[11:45] <Keybuk> nc4010 is the 12" notebook, nc6000 is the laptop, nc8000 is the hoverbook
[11:45] <jdub> ahr
[11:46] <hypatia> there are still some nc4000s floating around in au I think.
[11:46] <hypatia> I guess that's the previous model.
[11:46] <Keybuk> hypatia: they still sell the 4000 as well
[11:46] <jdub> hypatia: where was that place that james got his?
[11:46] <mdz> wtf is ttf-freefont-udeb for?
[11:47] <jdub> mdz: gtkfb frontent?
[11:47] <Oskuro> that's a good question
[11:47] <jdub> frontend
[11:47] <Oskuro> jdub: does that exist?
[11:47] <jdub> yeah
[11:47] <jdub> it's arse, but yeah
[11:47] <hypatia> jdub: Red's Notebook World on wattle street.
[11:47] <hypatia> jdub: They don't have an onli9ne catalogue.
[11:47] <jdub> oh
[11:48] <Keybuk> if you want a 12", the IBM X40 and HP nc4010 are the best two out there.  the HP is a little more pricey, but a bit more powerful and has a touchpad; the X40 is slightly smaller and lighter, but is evil and out to take over the world <g>
[11:48] <jdub> the HP is *more* expensive?
[11:49] <thom> the X40 has working acpi, too ;-)
[11:50] <Keybuk> thom: but the nc4010 has working WiFi <g>
[11:50] <thom> as does the X40
[11:50] <thom> (ipw2100 by default ;-) )
[11:50] <Keybuk> there was something else you were bitching about the other day; what was that? :p
[11:51] <thom> probably the stupid names HP used on the 4010 ;P
[11:51] <Keybuk> I mean something that didn't work on the X40
[11:52] <thom> the escape key isn't ideally placed
[11:53] <jdub> Microsoft VBScript runtime  error '800a0009'
[11:53] <jdub> Subscript out of range: '[number: 0] '
[11:53] <jdub> /Store/includes/nav_left_family.inc, line 8
[11:53] <jdub> ^ hp's website
[11:53] <jdub> brilliant
[11:53] <Keybuk> the acpi names are odd, the 4000 has BAT0/BAT1 etc. is the 4010 that doesn't; but then they're just random strings anyway, so isn't hugely worryable
[11:54] <jdub> the dell has 3 years warranty
[11:54] <thom> "worryable". you just made that up :-)
[11:54] <jdub> so if it fucks up, i can get it replaced
[11:54] <jdub> and it is nice, cheap, has all the features i want
[11:54] <thom> "if"
[11:54] <thom> when, dude. when
[11:55] <jdub> and i'm probably going to replace it in a year anyway
[11:55] <thom> only 100mb ethernet?
[11:57] <thom> optional bluetooth?
[11:57] <jdub> comes with bluetooth
[11:57] <thom> Dell Wireless 300 internal Bluetooth module (optional at point of sale only)
[11:57] <jdub> yeah, free this month
[11:58] <jdub> think the nic is 100mbit, yeah -> like i'm going to have a gige switch given that i didn't even have a 100mb switch until i got the wrt54g
[11:58] <jdub> and it'll always be on wireless here anywya ;)
[11:59] <jdub> so wish i could buy it without windows though
[11:59] <thom> and dude, it looks /so/ ugly
[11:59] <jdub> looked nice to me