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!dmwaters:*! Hi all, I need to do some quick emergency maintenence on a server, this won't take long. 1700 users affected. it'll take about 30 seconds.03:54
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SteveAdaf: Do I need to update some tests?03:38
=== elmo marvels at lu's invoking skillz
luluelmo: mmm what?03:39
=== elmo points at SteveA - you invoked him :)
=== lulu ooooh mental telepathy
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carlosdaf: did you touched anything from the patch I sent you or could I continue with it?03:46
dafcarlos: I didn't touch it03:46
dafI was really tired last night, seemingly03:47
carlosdaf: How is going?03:47
dafhow was your exam?03:47
carlosdaf: well, I cannot tell you I passed it, but neither I could tell I didn't...03:47
dafsounds like how I feel coming out of exams :)03:48
carlosno idea 03:48
carlosdaf: Which server will be used for betatesting?03:49
dafI suppose so03:49
carlosI think we should start feeding the database, it's not a fast process03:49
carlosdaf: Do we have a list of projects that will be imported?03:50
dafit'll probably be best to start with ones which have already been imported into Arch, if possible03:52
carlosdaf: Do we have them?03:52
dafwhat do you mean?03:52
carlosdaf: I don't know anything about any imported project into arch already03:53
dafthen we'd better ask somebody who knows03:53
dafwe have a couple of immediate obstables to overcome:03:54
dafSteve's authentication merge broke a few things03:54
dafwell, mainly it was changing Rosetta to use some of the centralised database stuff03:55
carlosshould I work on those task before resume my previous work?03:55
dafsecondly, I've failed to work around this mysterious database error03:55
dafI'm discussing it with Steve, so don't worry about it for now03:55
carloswhich error?03:56
dafjust so that you're aware of what's going on03:56
dafsomething to do with unindexable types, IIRC03:56
dafI can't fix that until we have the first problem fixed03:56
carlosthen, you know the fix?03:57
SteveAlet's talk about the beta test04:00
SteveAwhat exactly does it mean?04:00
SteveAdaf: what do you have in mind?04:02
carlosI suppose will be some kind of usability test from "normal" users, and also a help to detect bugs we have when they try to "break" it04:03
SteveAHere are the things we have to choose from:04:03
SteveA* use a throw-away database, or the real database on emperor04:04
SteveA* allow only "trusted" people to access rosetta, or allow anyone to access it04:04
SteveAI think that's it.04:05
dafSteveA: I haven't really thought about it04:05
dafit was decided, at some point, that we would have a beta test04:06
SteveAlet's think about it now.04:06
dafI don't belive what it would entail has ever been discussed04:06
carlosI don't think we should use the real database (yet), we are still doing some schema changes04:06
dafwe have a list of participants04:06
SteveAso, we'll need a way of adding participants to the database as persons04:07
dafI suspet we'll want a mailing list for the participants and the Rosetta developers to use for discussion04:07
SteveAwe can use the rosetta list for that, as all rosetta development discussion should be on the launchpad list now04:08
dafit's not a problem for rosetta list members to read the old archives, then?04:08
SteveAhmm, don't know04:09
SteveAotherwise, as jdub to set up a new list04:09
SteveAif we are to follow carlos' suggestion of not using the real database, then this should not really be called a "beta" 04:09
=== carlos thinks we should use canonical address for the betatesting...
lululike we have sounders for Warty - can we not have Launchpad testers for the apps04:09
SteveAthe expectation with a beta, such as the "google groups beta" and the "orkut beta" is that data will persist04:10
carlosI mean, mailing list and application at something.canonical.com04:10
SteveAso, what we are planning right now is not a beta04:10
SteveAwhat's the collective noun for "launchpads" ?04:10
carlosSteveA: ok, then, we could still use our own database and migrate the data to the production one later, after all schema changes are done04:11
SteveAI would rather avoid migrating data if we can.04:11
SteveAit would be cleaner if we can say "after date XXX the data will be cleared, and we'll start running it for real"04:12
SteveAwe could of course export pot and po files04:12
SteveApeople can do this, and reimport them, right?04:12
SteveASo, today, I want us to define what our "rosetta beta" means, and maybe change the name if it doesn't match the generally expected meaning of "beta",04:13
SteveAthen we need to make a list of all the things we need to do to get to doing what we've decided "beta" means.04:13
SteveAthen we need to agree who will do each of those things.04:14
SteveASo far, we have: The Rosetta "alpha" is where we make the rosetta application available to our "launchpad sounders".  The database will be thrown away once we get to the rosetta "beta" stage.  The "beta" will use the live database on emperor.04:16
SteveAWill this be a "total rosetta" or an "ubuntu rosetta" ?04:16
dafthe alpha?04:17
SteveAyes, the alpha04:17
SteveAlet's call it an "alpha".04:17
SteveAthat's what we're aiming for right now.04:17
dafI don't see any reason to restrict it to ubuntu04:17
SteveAso, the beta will be on rosetta.canonical.com ?04:18
luluSteveA: at the moment, we will only have the Ubuntu packages in Rosetta. it's rosetta.ubuntulinux.org. It is the distro view of Rosetta04:18
SteveAin that case, the alpha should present the same view on rosetta04:19
daflulu: why is this the case?04:19
luluindeed. when we go live with www.ubuntulinux.org...and hopefully Rosetta will go live at the same time, it will be Ubuntu's Rosetta.04:20
daflulu: there is no rosetta.ubuntulinux.org yet04:20
luludaf: the website will be www. ubuntulinux.org04:20
dafwe are still talking about the alpha, and I don't think that will be on ubuntulinux.org04:20
SteveAdaf: that doesn't matter.  the point is that rosetta.warthogs.hbd.com should present the Ubuntu part of rosetta04:20
dafcorrect me if I'm wrong04:20
SteveAthe alpha should be doing similar things to the beta04:20
SteveAexcept that the beta will be solid enough that we are happy with it writing to the main database04:21
luludaf: the applications that will go live at the same time are Rosetta and Malone for Ubuntu. We are in the Ubuntu distro...04:21
lulusorry - talking about when we go live....not testing....04:22
SteveAwe do have another choice then.04:22
daflulu: ok, but I thought that Rosetta was (eventually, at least) supposed to be for all free software04:22
SteveAeither the alpha is for ubuntu only, or the alpha is rosetta as a whole.04:23
daflulu: is there a reason that we're restricting it to Ubuntu packages for now?04:23
SteveAdaf: this is what we plan for the first deployment of rosetta04:23
luludaf: absolutely yes it will be global, but Mark wants it for Ubuntu first as a pilot phase for our own distro...04:23
dafok, that wasn't clear to me before04:24
carloseither for me04:25
SteveAlet's not drop everything to change scope now04:26
luluguys...that's not good. Rosetta and Malone first launch is for the ubuntu distro. Mark wants to get it working for Ubuntu first.04:26
luluit should not change scope - just will only have Ubuntu packages in Rosetta to begin with.04:27
carloslulu: it's not a problem for me04:27
dafthat's not a problem, but it just wasn't clear04:27
SteveAwill the app need to look any different or work any different if it is just for ubuntu?04:27
dafI think I might have propagated that misunderstanding as I was speaking to beta testers04:27
dafI don't think it affects functionality04:28
luluFor global Rosetta, we need it's own standalone site don't we.....with it's own branding - a generic Rosetta for all04:28
dafit's a thing of managing expectations04:28
carlossame problem here, but that could be fixed when we send the mail about the alpha start04:28
SteveAlet's check I understand this right.  the potfiles in ubuntu rosetta will be those from ubuntu linux.04:29
carlosSteveA: yes04:29
SteveAwe will be manually putting these into the database -- there is no form to add a new product or project or effort04:29
carlosSteveA: there is a way to create projects from the website04:29
SteveAdoes it make sense to allow people to create projects on rosetta.ubuntulinux.org ?04:30
carlosthe product and efforts part are easy to add because it works like the products page04:30
carlosSteveA: I don't think so04:30
SteveAthen, that is an answer to my question "does the app need to look any different or work any different if it is just for ubuntu?"04:31
dafthat depends on what we want rosetta.ubuntulinux.org to be04:31
luluSteveA: you tell us.........won't the whole of Warty be in Arch. That's what Mark said - Daf would be the owner of all the Rosetta projects first, as he needs to add them to Rosetta manually.04:31
dafif it is "*the* Rosetta", then yes04:31
dafif not, then rosetta.ubuntulinux.org will be for Ubuntu stuff only, and we will have to have the main Rosetta at some other to-be-decided location04:31
dafand we will probably have to brand the r.u.o one differently to some extent04:32
SteveAthe idea of rosetta.ZZZ.org is that it is for ZZZ stuff only04:32
SteveArosetta.gnome.org is just for gnome translations04:32
carlosare we going to share the database between rosetta's installations? (I think we should)04:32
SteveAit is always the same database04:33
SteveAwe have just one golden database04:33
carlosThen I suppose we will need a way to "filter" the projets/products/efforts so we only show the correct ones but It could be done later, after Ubuntu's Rosetta launch and before we launch other Rosetta site04:34
SteveAthis will be done through the virtual hosting support04:35
SteveAso, rosetta.fedora.org receives the request /+index04:36
SteveAand the apache or squid proxy that listens as rosetta.fedora.org rewrites that as04:36
SteveA  http://macquarie.canonical.com:8085/++vh++http:rosetta.fedora.org/++/rosetta/efforts/fedora/+index04:38
SteveAor something similar04:38
SteveA(I have the syntax a bit wrong)04:39
SteveAso, the rosetta server knows that it is serving as http://rosetta.fedora.org04:39
SteveAand it has /rosetta/efforts/fedora/ prepended to each requested path04:40
daflet's not worry about these technical details now04:41
SteveAin the "LaunchpadContext" object, it will tell you that you're trapped within the fedora effort04:41
daflet's focus on the alpha release04:41
SteveAdaf: where are we up to?  what is "The alpha release" ?04:43
dafapparently, the alpha release consists of making a running copy of Rosetta on top of a temporary database containing information about Ubuntu packages available to a selected group of people04:44
SteveAok.  What will these people be allowed to do?04:46
daflog in, look at all the pages, change their language preferences, submit translations04:47
daf(off the top of my head)04:47
SteveAdoes the software allow them to do anything more than this?04:47
carlosSteveA: create new projects04:48
carlosbut we could block it04:48
dafwhich we would need to restrict04:48
SteveAso... that means we either remove the "new projects" pages altogether04:49
dafit deosn't really matter, since the database will be temporary04:49
SteveAor we need a way of identifying "sounders" vs "staff" in the database04:49
dafwe will need to be able to set "Rosetta admin" priveleves on People eventually04:50
daf(or something finer grained)04:51
dafwe could probably do this using labels04:51
carloswe could do it with Labels easily04:51
SteveAI think a DBSchema would be more appropriate here04:52
SteveAanyway, you said it doesn't really matter04:53
SteveAin which case, the alpha allows the sounders to create new projects04:56
dafthat's not a requirement, just a coincidence04:58
SteveAwe need to write down what the alpha will be like04:59
SteveAit is important that we write down that we will not be disabling the "add new project" pages04:59
SteveAand that we'll need to decide whether it is okay for the beta, or need some way of classifying users before the beta.05:00
carlosFor ubuntu's rosetta it should be moved away from the normal user's options05:00
SteveAdaf - action item: write a clear description of what the "rosetta alpha" will do, where it will run, how we will run it.05:02
dafwhere *will* it run?05:05
SteveAin the alpha, I imagine we'll want to fix bugs more or less as they are reported05:06
SteveAso, it must be on rosetta.warthogs05:06
dafwhat do you mean by "how we will run it"?05:07
SteveAwhat are the activities involved in running the alpha?  who will do them?05:08
SteveAdo we need to add new projects and products?05:08
SteveAwho will do it?05:08
SteveAdo we need to add new participants as Persons?05:08
SteveAwho will do it?05:08
SteveAhow do participants get their passwords?05:08
SteveAvividly imagine the alpha running, then imagine the steps needed to get there05:09
SteveAeach one needs to be written down, and understood05:09
SteveAdaf: does this make sense?05:14
SteveAdaf: hello?05:21
carlosSteveA: seems like it's away (looking at jabber's status)05:22
carlos /s/it/he/05:22
carlosSteveA: If it helps.. it makes sense for me 05:22
dafSteveA: yes, it makes sense05:25
dafsorry, I got called away05:25
SteveAcan you take responsibility for producing this?05:27
SteveAthen we can all review it when you're done.05:27
SteveAwhen can you do it?05:28
dafI could do it now05:29
dafI am anxious to fix other things, though05:29
SteveAI think it would be good to get this done today.05:30
SteveAeven if it means pushing the other things back a bit.05:30
SteveAwhat do you think?05:30
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luluhi guys - just had a chat to Mark in SA05:31
lulurosetta.ubuntulinux.org will be the Ubuntu translation effort.05:32
lulumark is happy to have even the Ubuntu apps hardcoded on the front page with Welcome to Rosetta for Ubuntu....05:32
luluwe need to have the ability to translate the PO file for an application05:33
luluthis means we don't have to have all the plumbing available to set up and edit translation efforts.05:33
lulubut, someone can come into Ubuntus' rosetta and ask for a project to be translated - and that will be from that url05:34
carloslulu: a project request form, right?05:35
luluthe Global view of Rosetta.....could be at rosetta.shuttleworthfoundation.org/projects/$Project.name/$Product.name/POTemplate etc 05:36
carlosSteveA: Where could I see some info about the login code you added?, My code is not working anymore because I need a way to login first...05:36
luluwhat Mark wants to do is get Ubuntu's Rosetta up and running, and then rosetta. gnome.org, rosetta.mozilla.org - 5 or 6 who use rosetta for their project...05:37
luluthen we amalgamate them in the Global view of Rosetta05:37
SteveAcarlos: let's talk about that after this meeting05:37
carlosSteveA: ok05:38
carloslulu: perfect05:38
daflulu: so people can request any project from the Ubuntu Rosetta?05:40
luluMark doesn't want t o stop people asking to be able to translate, as word will spread.05:41
lulu15th September we launch with Ubuntu's rosetta, but meantime we are working on Rosetta's global view...- generic Rosetta for all free software.05:41
carloslulu: September?05:42
lulubut for that - we need to have all the plumbing of translation efforts set up.05:42
lulu15th September the website launches. Rosetta for Ubuntu - Phase 1 - translate an Ubuntu application in Rosetta, is due.05:43
carlosHmm, Why did I thought the release date was the first week of October?05:44
luluDaf, Carlos, SteveA, Lalo, Limi - Mark said at the conference he was keen to have Rosetta for Ubuntu up. Daf - we discussed this. 05:45
carloslulu: I know, If fact I also thought ubuntu official release was on october05:46
luluok - so can or can we not have the applications that are in Ubuntu translatable in Rosetta by the 15th September?05:46
lulucarlos: pre-release of Ubuntu is the 15th September. Official release is 15th October.05:47
luluso we are aiming for those dates too.05:47
carloslulu: ok05:47
carloslulu: This schedule should not be a problem, we are almost there on feature implementation05:47
luludaf: - when you did a status check last Thursday I asked you to write up on the wiki what we have done and what we still need to do.05:48
SteveAlulu: the bit of irc you missed: daf is going to work today on the list of all the things needed before we can release the alpha version of the rosetta service.05:48
luluSteveA: ok - that was requested last week, but I appreciate people have been busy working on code. But, the purpose of it is to assist us in knowing what the goals are and how close/far we are away from it.05:49
SteveAwith that list, we'll be in a position to answer the question "when can we have the alpha"05:50
SteveAnote that we're intending to throw away the database after the alpha period.  but, pot and po data can be exported and re-imported05:50
luluSteveA: good. Ok - so after Daf has donme the list, we can assess if the 15th September realistic to get Rosetta for Ubuntu up and running. But, without sufficient time for testing....it's tight.05:52
luluDaf: once we know where we are, let's have a look and perhaps we need to manage expectations and shift the deadline...05:53
carloslulu: well, the list daf is working on is more about the sounders "procedure" than the missing parts in Rosetta, the list of missing parts in Rosetta is already done since last week but it's not at the wiki (yet)05:54
dafI think I'm having trouble managing this as a time-based (rather than feature-based) release process05:54
SteveAthe document daf is working on should cover the following:05:54
SteveA* what we mean by "rosetta alpha"05:54
SteveA* what software / database gets deployed where05:55
SteveA* who may use it05:55
SteveA* what they may do05:55
SteveA* what data we are / are not saving05:55
SteveA* who does the "by hand" administrative tasks, and how05:55
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SteveA* what we need to add to rosetta to be able to do the above05:55
luludaf: yes - that is hard to get one's head around time based releases, but for a given date, we set the features we will release and make sure that there are no bugs in it. 05:59
lulueven if we have less features/basic requirements, but they work well.06:00
luluok - looking fwd to the list and then we can make decisions....06:00
dafsure, but we are perpetually slipping on our targets06:00
luludaf: it seems that there's been misunderstandings on what targets we are supposed to meet in terms of time and functionality. so, if we can pin it down now, we can work to it.06:03
luludon't despair :o) onwards and upwards!06:04
SteveAcarlos: I'd like to take 10 mins break, but then can we talk about your question from earlier?06:05
carlosSteveA: sure06:05
dafwill alpha testers be able to see the Malone/Soyuz stuff?06:16
dafhttps://www.warthogs.hbd.com/RosettaAlpha <-- initial revision up06:18
SteveAdaf: do we want them to do so?06:19
SteveAthat's another question for your document06:19
dafI don't know06:19
SteveAif we don't, we may need to do some work to stop them doing so06:19
dafwould it potentially negative consequences if they could?06:19
SteveAalso, should we be using a separate launchpad instance and database from our devel server?06:20
carlosI don't think they should see the other projects06:20
dafI think it only makes a difference if the Rosetta Alpha Launchpad instance doesn't have Malone and Soyuz06:20
dafbecause then we would be depriving the Malone/Soyuz guys of a development server06:20
luluSteveA: when we have a staging server for all the apps - will we not have a launchpad login, and a rosetta login, malone login, soyuz login.06:21
lulushould we not have all the apps on the same dev server too?06:21
daflulu: if you go to rosetta.warthogs.hbd.com now, you can see Rosetta, Soyuz and Malone06:21
daflulu: the question is whether this is appropriate for our alpha testers06:21
SteveAdaf: we can't just update the alpha server every half hour06:22
luluso this perhaps should be renamed to launchpad.warthogs.hbd.com06:22
SteveAdaf: the alpha server and our development server fulfil different goals06:22
dafthen they should be separate06:23
dafthe fact that "rosetta" is a machine name is confusing06:23
lulucan we rename it to launchpad?06:24
SteveAwe can ask elmo about running the alpha on some domain name we'd like06:24
SteveAwhat will it be eventually?06:24
SteveArosetta.ubuntulinux.org ?06:24
daflulu: we could, but it would be better to name it to something not related to what the software is called06:24
luluSteveA: rosetta.ubuntulinux.org  - correct for the distro view of Rosetta.06:25
daf"eventually" depenends on the outcome of the ubuntu.org negotiations06:25
SteveAthen, it should be on port 80 of some machine called "rosetta.whatever"06:25
SteveAso, rosetta.warthogs.hbd.com is okay06:26
dafwe could vhost launchpad.w.h.c on the same machine, perhaps06:26
SteveAwe can get elmo to add devel.warthogs.hbd.com as an alias for rosetta.warthogs.hbd.com06:26
SteveAand get to our development server there06:26
carlossounds good for me06:27
luluSteveA: good idea Steve06:27
SteveAdaf: be sure to write all this up.  getting elmo to do the domain stuff, and the apache config on rosetta.w.h.c is one of the tasks we need to do before being able to release an alpha06:28
SteveAalso changing the development server configs06:28
SteveAand scripts06:28
luluJames said we may have new machines up by the beginning of next week...i.e. we may soon have a staging server too!06:30
SteveAcarlos: I'll be back in a few minutes06:30
carlosI have also some questions about the interface changes you did06:31
carlosWell, it's only one question :-)06:31
justdaveheh, figures...  I added some table definitions to database/malone.py on Friday because I needed them for stuff I was working on.  star-merged today, and someone else (probably stub) added the same tables since then. :)06:35
justdavenow to figure out how I tell which ones are his so I keep the right ones (I'll keep his instead of mine)06:36
carlosjustdave: tla changes --diffs should show you stub's changes06:38
justdaveyeah, it does.  doesn't show me mine though.  I'd basically like to back out my previous changeset to that file only.06:38
carlosjustdave: I don't know the exact commands with tla, but you could use https://chinstrap.warthogs.hbd.com/archzoom to get a concrete version of one file06:40
justdavelooking at my change logs, it looks like the changes to that file were committed as a single changeset with only that change.06:41
justdaveso I could back out the entire changeset easily enough.06:41
dafjustdave: I would do this:06:42
daf - tla get the previous revision06:43
daf - copy the file into your working tree06:43
daf - commit06:43
daf - delete the temporary checkout06:43
daf(by step 2, I mean copy the file in question from the temporary tree into the working tree)06:44
SteveAcarlos: hi06:44
carlosSteveA: hi06:44
carlosYou changed the Interface IRosettaProject to this: class IRosettaProject(IRosettaStats, doap.IProject):06:45
carlosSteveA: Is there any problem to do the same with the other classes that have the same methods defined in IRosettaStats?06:46
justdaveheh, I love revision libs.  new checkout took all of 10 seconds because I already had it cached. :)06:46
carlos /s/to do/if we do/06:46
carlosI suppose it should not be a problem, but you did not changed the other classes, that's why I'm asking06:47
SteveAI didn't change the other classes because I was working just on project.06:47
SteveAwhich other types are we talking about?06:47
carlosIProduct, IPOTemplate and IEffort06:48
carlosand ICategory06:49
carlosIEffort is not correct, it's ITranslationEffort06:49
SteveAas a first step, we can make IPOTemplate extend IRosettaStats06:50
SteveAand likewise for the others06:50
carloswell, and IPOTemplate does not have the messageCount method because it's served with the __len__ one but I suppose it's not a problem if we implement the other one that just returns len(self)06:50
SteveAas a second step, some of this functionality needs to be moved to canonical.database06:51
carlosin time for the phase1 release?06:52
SteveAI'll be doing most of that, though06:53
carlosok, then I will do the first step only, right?06:54
SteveAall that is involved is simplifying interfaces06:54
SteveAyou were also asking about logging in users06:55
SteveAI think06:55
carlosnow, about the login/session part. Where could I see the interface we have to work with it?06:55
carlosI need to implement a template that let's the user log in the system06:56
carlosand other to update their preferences06:56
SteveAthe template that lets a user log into the system for now will be a page at rosetta/+login06:58
SteveAthe page requires a permission other than zope.Public to view06:58
SteveAso, it will cause the basic authentication dialog to appear06:58
SteveAon a successful login, the user will be redirected to the path given in the query string, or if none is given, the rosetta front page.06:59
carlosI mean, I don't need to implement the authentication dialog?06:59
SteveAno need to implement the authentication dialog07:00
carlosthen, what should appear inside the rosetta/+login template?07:00
SteveAI'll write that template.07:01
SteveAeventually, when we get cookie authentication, there will be a login form07:01
SteveAsomeone else can write that07:01
SteveAbut we're using HTTP Basic auth for now07:01
SteveAI will add the +login page today07:02
carlosso, until you write that template, how could I force the login dialog to appear?, change all pages that requiere authentication from zope.Public to zope.Private or something like that?07:02
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justdaveam I correct in assuming that I don't need to be on the soyuz mailing list anymore?  soyuz was originally the umbrella (what launchpad is now) which is why I subscribed to it, but soyuz seems to be just one of the components of launchpad now09:39
SteveAlaunchpad is now the umbrella09:39
SteveAthe platform09:39
SteveAto reverse the analogy09:39

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