lamont__doko about, by chance?12:09
dokolamont__, yep12:10
lamont__doko: any chance you would know what section gets created in an i386 ld output when there are non-PIC relocations?12:11
=== lamont__ is now known as lamont
lamontdoko: found it.12:14
lamontbut thanks12:14
moquistseriously; to whom do I Assign a new bug?12:16
lamontmoquist: generally, you don12:16
lamont t12:16
lamontfor several of the packages, there are pre-assigned defaults, for the others mdz (or someone else, but generally mdz in my experience) assigns it to an appropriate victim, if one of us doesn't jus tdeal with it anyway12:17
lamontworks if nothing else.12:17
moquistlamont: that's what I expected, but when I left "Assign To" blank, ... NM.  Now when I selected "gnome-system-tools" the Assign To field got filled in for me.12:17
lamontalthough it should be filled in - I've never needed to type anything there...12:18
dokolamont, sorry, didn't see.12:18
lamontyou must assign a category..  UNKNOWN is the catchall when you can't find the right package12:18
lamontdoko: np.  I knew that I had a bug that had the needed info in it, just couldn't find it for a bit.. (was closed a while back..)12:18
moquistlamont: also, the options list under component shrinks to nothing as soon as I've clicked in it once.  that may be part of why I got "undefined" (or whatever it was) in "Assign To" last time.12:19
moquistlamont: thx12:19
lamontmoquist: I just start typing - if it goes to nothing, then clear the field and type 'UNKNOWN'12:19
moquistlamont: Yeah, I figured out after a bit that I could just start typing, rather than trying to scroll through the list.12:20
moquistmaybe I should just ask here before submitting a bug... what is the plan concerning root authentication for things like configuration?12:21
moquistI went to configure my wireless card, and Gnome System Tools wanted the root password.  This is a livecd, so I have no idea what the root password is (leaving it blank did not work).12:21
tvon|x31to code in sudo use instead of su12:21
tvon|x31for now you can run "sudo passwd root" to give root a pass12:21
lamontroot gets a starred out password during install12:22
lamontand sudo is your friend.12:22
lamontif you know enough to give root a password, then all is happyu12:22
moquistok; but this is a known issue.  will a bug submission be helpful just to track this instance of the issue?  no need to add useless bugs...12:22
lamontand during single user bootup for disaster repair, the password is unused (unless you've given root one)12:22
tvon|x31No need for the bug12:22
moquistok. no bug.12:23
lamontI think there's already a bug in the system about it.12:23
moquistthanks for the help12:23
moquistI saw another bug about gksudo not working for something else (gnome-cups-something-or-other), but not for Gnome System Tools.12:23
moquistok; that's generic enough to cover it all.  :)12:24
seb128 gnome-system-tools (0.92.0-0ubuntu2) warty; urgency=low12:24
seb128 .12:24
seb128   * debian/patches/02_use-gksudo.dpatch:12:24
seb128     - launch all the system tools with gksudo, avoiding the need for a root12:24
seb128       password.12:24
seb128this fix is not good for your problem ?12:24
tvon|x31ooh, fancy12:24
jdubmoquist: yeah, i'm currently fixing a bunch of stuff for those12:50
jdubsweet baby jebus12:51
jdubSetting up at (3.1.8-11ubuntu1) ...12:51
jdubInstalling new version of config file /etc/init.d/atd ...12:51
jdub[ ok ] rting deferred execution scheduler...12:51
moquistjdub: cool12:51
jdubInstalling new version of config file /etc/init.d/acpi-support ...12:51
jdubinvoke-rc.d: initscript acpid, action "restart" failed.12:51
jdub * Checking battery state...12:51
jdub[ ok ] /proc/acpi/ac_adapter/*/state: No such file or directory12:51
Clintmark0: depends; can you chroot to your installed system?12:52
=== mdz [~mdz@69-167-148-207.vnnyca.adelphia.net] has joined #ubuntu
mdzcircuit breaker keeps tripping01:00
tvon|x31"black on light yellow" gnome-terminal settings should be default with the ubuntu theme :-D01:06
jdubi don't have a /dev/dsp01:09
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tvon|x31buttercreme vim colorscheme matches well also01:10
tvon|x31jdub: have alsa/whatnot modules loaded?01:10
=== tvon|x31 points out the obvious
jdubsnd_pcm, snd_intel8x0, etc., etc.01:11
mdzjdub: do you have /dev/snd/*?01:12
mdzsounds like you don't have OSS emulation01:13
mdzmodprobe snd-pcm-oss, snd-mixer-oss01:13
tvon|x31yeah, those01:13
jdubstill no dev/dsp though01:13
mdzworks for me01:14
mdzin fact they get automatically loaded at boot by default01:14
mdzthis is current warty?01:14
mdzI'm even using the same driver01:14
mdzjdub: udevd running?01:15
=== jdub installs new kernel
jdubhaven't rebooted in a while anyway01:16
jdubspeed of ubuntu development makes me want to reboot!01:16
Gmanyou're such a corporate whore ;)01:18
jdubribbed for your pleasure01:19
=== jdub reboots
Clintmdz: if you can get a hold of the logs, there's stuff from mark0 about his inability to install amd6401:23
mdzClint: I'll check fabbione's log, thanks01:24
mdzClint: sounds like he had the same problem I did01:25
mdzI've emailed Mithrandir01:25
jdubokay, i have a dev/dsp now01:27
jduband four mixer tabs! hooray!01:27
tvon|x31Usability (tm)01:28
jdubbut esd still claims that there's no such /dev/dsp device01:28
jdubi'm in the audio group01:29
hrdwrboblogged in/out since you were added?01:29
jdubno, first user gets those groups by default01:29
=== jdub has checked the basic stuff :)
jdubError: Cannot open device oss.01:30
jdubALSA lib pcm_hw.c:1155:(snd_pcm_hw_open) open /dev/snd/pcmC0D0p failed: No such file or directory01:30
jdubALSA snd_pcm_open error: No such file or directory01:30
jdubError: Cannot open device alsa09.01:30
=== jdub has no idea what alsa sound device names are meant to represent, but that certainly isn't there
Clintcard 0, device 0?01:32
jdubperhaps, how about the c vs. p?01:33
jdubbecause i only have the c, not the p ;)01:33
jdubmaybe the usb camera (with mic) is C001:34
jduband the sound card is C101:34
jdubp == play, c == record/something01:34
mdzthat would make sense01:34
mdzsince the camera probably doesn't have a mixer01:34
mdzjdub: c == capture01:34
jdubgood call01:34
jdubterrible ordering though01:34
=== jdub runs alsaconf
jdubso the oss emulation must just take whatever's the first device01:52
mdzso you have a /dev/dsp[1-9]  or something?01:55
jdubhold on, just trying to close stuff and reload in a sane order01:58
jdubmdz: i wasn't going to fix those because new ones will appear shortly anyway02:01
mdzjdub: it's been breaking the daily CDs for two days; we need for those to be working02:02
mdzit was a trivial fix02:06
jdubperhaps we should always sort usb last when loading sound drivers or something02:10
jdubif that's even doable given that it's hotplugging02:10
=== StoneTable [~stone@c-67-167-111-186.client.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu
danielsjdub: kdrive is a good choice for the installer, but i don't think it's good for usplash, tbh02:33
danielsjdub: btw, arrive 1635 on the 15th, dep 1415 on the 16th02:35
jdubdaniels: yeah, we already have an xserver available :)02:36
=== jdub just found the change in tac amusing, considering rhgb
danielsjdub: yeah ... starting two x servers makes little sense to me02:36
mdzjdub: alsa needs some udev love to consistently name its devices02:37
=== jdub just adds the modules in order in /etc/modules for now :)
mdz/etc/modules makes baby jesus cry02:38
jduboddly, it has a bunch of stuff in it alreayd02:38
danielsi thought we were going with pissing oss off in favour of alsa?02:38
jdubdaniels: we have, but we're using oss compat because it's less buggy than current app use of alsa02:39
mdzjdub: where did sr_mod and sbp2 come from?02:40
jdubno idea02:40
mdzthe installer adds ide-cd and ide-generic02:40
danielsit's just that istr having the via82cxxx module loaded for sound, in addition to alsa02:40
mdzI suppose it could add the others too02:40
=== jdub no touchie :)
mdzdaniels: that was a bug02:41
danielsmdz: was/is?02:41
mdzalsa _or_ oss should be loaded (almost exclusively alsa)02:41
danielsthis was colin's crazy hacked-up-at-4am cd02:41
mdzit used to be that hotplug loaded the alsa driver, and then discover loaded the oss one02:42
mdzthis was pre-wartyconf02:42
danielsthis cd was generated pretty much at the end of wartyconf02:42
mdzoh, you said via82cxxx, not via82cxxx_audio02:42
danielsi think it might have been _audio02:42
danielsbut i'm not running that kernel, 'cause i like my /home02:42
mdzif it is, then that's a bug02:42
mdzbut it seems more likely that it was via82cxxx02:42
danielseither way, the right module is snd-via82xx02:43
danielsbecause without having access to 40 mixer channels, i can't get sound02:43
daniels(no, really; i need to tweak iec958, iec958 output, iec958 playback, and analogue to optical duplication)02:43
danielsdoes anyone here have an ati non-video device? (e.g. agp bridge)02:50
mdzwasn't it Keybuk who posted to the list with one?02:53
danielsit's also keybuk who's not here02:55
danielshe's rather selfishly living on his natural timezone02:55
whiprushrandom thought/idea on a fresh ubuntu install:02:56
whiprushI pick a timezone, I launch evolution, pick a timezone, I launch the weather applet, pick a timezone.02:57
jdubheh, yeah, annoying to fix02:58
whiprushyeah I can imagine02:58
jdubmaybe for the next release :)02:58
jdub(too late for us now)02:58
whiprushjust mentionign it02:58
jdubshould really be fixed upstream02:58
=== jdub is exercising lots of things that should be fixed upstream atm. :|
jdubprivilege elevation stuff is completely shite02:59
jdubeveryone's using different stuff02:59
=== whiprush nods
=== npmccallum [~npmccallu@24-48-54-75.ironoh.adelphia.net] has joined #ubuntu
jdub * Stopping Advanced Configuration and Power Interface daemon...                       [ ok ] 03:08
jdub * Loading ACPI modules...03:08
jdub * Module already loaded: asus_acpi03:08
jdub * Module already loaded: ac03:08
jdub * Module already loaded: thermal03:08
jdub * Module already loaded: processor03:08
jdub * Unable to load module: toshiba_acpi03:08
jdub * Module already loaded: button03:08
jdub * Module already loaded: fan03:08
jdub * Module already loaded: battery                                                      [fail] 03:08
jdubif we're going to have these things in, they really have to mean something ;)03:08
mdzthat's the same stuff it was displaying before, just formatted differently03:08
jdubbut now i don't know what it means ;)03:09
jdub[fail]  -> the battery?03:09
tvon|x31after the batter I'd think03:13
jdub(yes, it's indicating that acpid failed to start)03:14
jdub(but i only know that because i'm a smarty-pants, not because it told me)03:14
mdzit is?03:15
mdzthe script seems to be written such that it will issue a [fail]  if any of the modules fails to load03:16
mdzwhich I think is a bit excessive, and worthy of a bug report03:16
jdubi only have kacpid03:16
jduband my battery applet hates me03:16
jdubthe kernel thread03:19
mdzvisions of KDE swam through my head...03:19
jdub    3 ?        S<     0:00 [events/0] 03:19
jdub    5 ?        S<     0:00  \_ [kacpid] 03:19
jduball these bluetooth daemons are running03:20
jdubbut afaik, i don't have any bluetooth ;)03:20
jdub 4323 ?        Ss     0:00 hcid: processing events03:20
jdub 4329 ?        S<     0:00 [krfcommd] 03:20
jdub 4331 ?        Ss     0:00 /usr/sbin/sdpd03:20
makoin terms of archive layout, 'restricted' doesn't exist yet, right?03:21
makowill it?03:21
mdzsdpd doesn't start here03:21
mdzmako: it will soon03:21
mdzI just sent elmo a nagging email about it a few minutes ago03:22
makook, i'm writing the documentation that explains what is and wanted to make sure it was describing something that actual exists :)03:22
makoor will03:22
mdzroot      1848  0.0  0.0     0    0 ?        S    Sep01   0:00 [kIrDAd] 03:23
mdzthat is kRaD03:23
jdub[khpsbpkt] 03:23
=== jdub wipes his screen
jdubsome funny things aren't working03:25
jdubclearing recent documents03:25
jdubtotem settings03:25
mdzjdub: file associations...03:27
jdubbong, when i restart the panel it's fine03:27
jdubor at least, the recdocs menu is clear03:27
jdubnow it's actually working03:28
mdzjdub: I do not think that word means what you think it means :-)03:28
mdzeek, I just got that awful ACPI error dialog03:28
jdubis anyone's wifi applet saving its preference properly?03:29
mdzwhoa, my wifi applet is active now03:29
mdzmagic herbert kernel :-)03:29
makomdz: is there going to be a prompt on the cd about restricted?03:29
mdzmako: current directive is "no"03:29
mdzah, file associations are fixed03:31
makomdz: what is the interface to universe03:33
mdzmako: edit /etc/apt/sources.list by hand and We Hope You Know What You're Doing03:33
makoright :)03:44
jdubthe battstat images are in a header file03:46
danielsXPM IS YOUR FRIEND03:48
=== jdub holds up a cross to daniels
danielsXAW ISN'T DEAD03:50
jdubthat's right03:50
=== daniels snorts another line.
jdubthe bsds still ship it03:50
danielsha ha, no03:50
danielsanholt has called xprint an abortion in public and flagged his intention to kill it03:50
=== jdub meant xaw
jdub#if needed03:50
jdub/* XPM */03:50
danielsoh, xaw03:50
danielswe still ship xaw03:51
danielsi think debian still ships libxaw603:51
=== jdub smacks daniels
mdzcleverly named for the expression of disgust one uses when encountering it03:51
danielshell, it ships a library called 'oldX' for X1003:51
danielsmdz: my reactions to xaw are usually less printable :P03:51
danielsxaw and xprint: two great tastes that taste great together03:52
danielsthat was just the hit i needed to go back to discover's internals03:53
danielswe should just replace discover with a really stupid wrapper03:54
danielsif (pci->vendor == 1002 && pci->class == VIDEO) printf("ati");03:55
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jdubmdz: who did you see about the ifconfig/ip retraining?04:39
jdubmdz: i tried hypnosis and electric shock therapy, but so far, no go04:39
jdubmdz: maybe it's dietary?04:40
=== jdub books a dietician who groks linux.
Clintit requires russian food?04:40
mdzjdub: printf '#!/bin/sh\n\necho ip, you idiot\n' > ~/bin/ifconfig && chmod 755 ~/bin/ifconfig04:40
mdzthe same technique can be applied to apt-get->aptitude04:41
jdubnot prepared to do a religious conversion at this time of the afternoon04:41
mdzjdub: it also helps to remind yourself that ip is _way_ fewer characters :-)04:41
Clintsomeone  should make ifconfig do all the relevant things that ip does, and also make all the linux nic drivers support ifconfig media type selection04:42
jdubevery time i type 'ip' to consider trying the switch04:42
jdubit turns me off04:43
mdzClint: ew, why?04:44
mdzjdub: drink the kool-aid04:44
hrdwrbobip route 100x better than 'route'04:44
Clintmdz: compatibility and sanity?04:44
hrdwrbobesp when you have mysql accounts for the IP, you add another IP - all of a sudden the outbound IP changes04:44
jdubClint: see a dietician.04:44
Clintjdub: I hate those people.04:45
jdublet's eat them04:45
jdubthat'll confuse the crap out of them04:45
jdubmdz: no dietician for you!04:45
Kamionsomebody please give 'ip' a man page already04:46
KamionI tend not to use programs without man pages04:46
jdubKamion: i just looked at one - does it suck?04:46
Kamionwhere is it?04:46
jdubi've already done some retraining this week anyway04:46
Kamionit ain't in unstable, anyway04:46
jdubKamion: man ip, i'm using warty04:46
Clintholy shit, there's one in sarge04:46
Kamionah, hold on, that would be because I don't have it installed :)04:46
Kamionit used to be crap ...04:46
mdzClint: a feature-overloaded ifconfig wouldn't be compatible with anything else anyway04:46
Clintmdz: I hear a lot of whining from FreeBSD users04:47
mdzKamion: ip has had a man page for _ages_04:47
mdzthat argument was moot almost before it happened04:47
Kamionmaybe I'm thinking of tc04:47
mdzyou just have to skip the 4 screens of BNF04:47
Clinthardly anyone needs to use tc04:47
jdubsuch a turnoff04:47
KamionI got burnt extremely badly by having to grok tc at work back in late 200004:47
mdzClint: yeah, I hear a lot of whining from FreeBSD users, too.  I tend to tune it out :-P04:47
Kamionmakes me extremely leery of using anything by that author ever04:48
mdzip(8) would benefit from about 5 good examples04:48
Kamion(of course, I have to use the Linux networking stack ...)04:48
Clintmdz: I find the fact that I can add extra IP addresses and change duplex a plus04:48
Kamiontc(8) is better than it used to be but still not great04:48
Clintand I find the ip runtime help more readable than this manpage04:48
mdzKamion: what's your opinion on the sbin question?04:49
KamionI lean towards fixing the things that are in the wrong place, since that benefits the rest of the community as well04:50
Kamionadmittedly I put sbin in my $PATH everywhere, but I'm a geek ...04:50
mdzso is everyone else who uses the command line, to some extent04:51
mdzwhich is the only place that PATH really matters04:51
Clintand zsh's sudo completion looks in sbin even when it isn't in your $PATH now :)04:51
mdzClint: ooh!04:51
Kamionhm, people keep saying that but I'm not convinced04:51
tvon|x31Could take #1 and file bugs upstream to work towards #204:51
mdzsome of that stuff is never going to go upstream, ever04:52
KamionI know plenty of people who use the command line at a trivial level because that's what the university computer systems offered04:52
mdzI'll never convince anyone that fsck and mkfs should be in /bin04:52
tvon|x31upstream is generally not going to be fun methinks04:52
Kamionbut who definitely aren't geeks04:52
mdzbut I use them as unprivileged users _all the time_04:52
Kamionfsck? really?04:52
jdubmdz: so the mousedev thing - what can we do to fix that?04:52
Kamionoh, uml?04:52
mdzfor UML filesystems04:52
jdubmdz: (always loading mousedev)04:52
Kamionthat's so a weird special case :)04:52
mdzjdub: have it added to /etc/modules at install04:52
jdubKamion: do you think that's crack?04:53
Kamionwhat does the mousedev module do?04:53
jdubit makes /dev/input/mice appear04:53
mdzwhich lets X work sanely04:53
tvon|x31is /dev/psaux old school?04:53
mdztvon|x31: in the worst way04:53
mdzI think it's still needed for synaptics, though04:53
jdubtvon|x31: totally. it's not even old school cool.04:54
Kamionwell, we load psmouse for some powerpc systems already, so I guess not04:54
KamionI'd beware arch-specificness, though04:54
mdzKamion: mousedev is totally generic input layer goodness04:54
mdzI think it should load everywhere, regardless of hardware04:54
Kamionif it works everywhere, we can go for it04:54
Clintmdz: needed how?04:54
=== Kamion notes absence of mousedev on his current system
mdzClint: in that when X autoconfigures a synaptics device in XF86Config, it points at psaux04:55
Kamion$ find /lib/modules/2.6.8-powerpc -name mousedev\*04:55
Kamion$ 04:55
mdz        Driver          "synaptic"04:55
mdz        Option          "SendCoreEvents"        "true"04:55
mdz        Option          "Device"                "/dev/psaux"04:55
mdz        Option          "Protocol"              "auto-dev"04:55
mdzKamion: :-(04:55
tvon|x31Option          "Device"                "/dev/psaux"04:55
mdzcompiled in04:55
Clinti'm using driver "ImPS/2" and /dev/input/mice04:56
tvon|x31That was created by dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree8604:56
mdzClint: with Driver "synaptics"?04:56
Kamionit would be a shame to force it to be loaded and have something spit out an error on every boot04:56
Clintno, driver "ImPS/2"04:56
KamionOTOH it's kind of hard to detect that case in hw-detect04:56
mdzKamion: there really should be a sane kernel-level way to handle this04:56
mdzmodules which are compiled in should register themselves in some way that lets modprobe treat the compiled-in and module-already-loaded cases identically04:56
Kamionin the meantime loading mousedev seems to be the least evil thing, I guess04:57
=== Riff [~davyd@cook.theducks.org] has joined #ubuntu
mdzKamion: we could just compile in mousedev everywhere, too04:58
mdzKamion: why is it done that way on powerpc, anyway?04:58
Kamionmdz: because you always want it? who knows04:58
mdzhmm, powerpc is built with CONFIG_INPUT_KEYBOARD=y as well04:59
tvon|x31is that HID?04:59
tvon|x31eg, macs have usb keyboards...?05:00
Kamionwell, in the meantime ddetect 1.03ubuntu3 unconditionally loads mousedev post-reboot05:00
jdubthanks Kamion 05:00
mdztvon|x31: no, it has CONFIG_USB_HID=m05:00
jdubhere's hoping it doesn't suck05:00
mdzKamion: thanks05:00
Kamionsticking something in /etc/modules post-install from hw-detect is incredibly easy, you just call register-module and it all gets taken care of05:01
=== Kamion loves d-i
jdubyo Riff 05:02
tvon|x31mdz: ah05:02
RiffI'm trying to work out if we can do a GNOME reality TV show05:04
RiffGNOME in a Bubble05:05
Riffwhere we put the core hackers in a transparent container in the middle of melbourne for a month05:05
Riffand see if they can get a GNOME release done05:05
danielsmdz: ln -s $(which sl) ~/bin/ifconfig05:05
danielsmdz: annoying, but effective05:05
Kamionjdub: what bizarro way are you building packages that results in Maintainer: Jeff Waugh <jeff.waugh@canonical.com>?05:06
Kamion(in the .changes)05:06
Clintdaniels: guh, just alias it05:06
danielsClint: er, yeah05:06
jdubKamion: which package?05:07
Kamionjdub: if you're using -m, that's unnecessary05:07
Kamionfile-roller, gnome-netstatus, gnome-system-tools, synaptic that I noticed05:07
jdubbong, so i am05:08
jdubremoved :)05:08
Kamionta, will reduce my cognitive dissonance :)05:09
spivHmm, we don't seem to have offlineimap.05:11
jdubspiv: eeek!05:11
jdubspiv: man, good catch05:12
spivI vaguely recall installing it direct from debian way back when I installed this laptop, and forgot to report it, but now hypatia just tripped over the same thing.05:12
jdubspiv: does it work from universe?05:12
=== jdub will look at it
jdubit might just need minor build fixes05:14
jdubor dep things05:14
spivjdub: Thanks :)05:14
jdubcan you put it on one of the hoary pages to remind us?05:14
jdublamont: ping05:15
spivjdub: Hmm, which page would be appropriate?05:15
jdubspiv: probably DesktopSeed05:15
spiv"Create this page"05:16
jdubbrill :)05:16
spivOk then :)05:16
jdubjust put ' * offlineimap # suggested by AndrewBennetts' in there05:16
jdubmdz: how've you put stuff on www.nny.com/~mdz?05:17
mdzjdub: rookery:~/public_html05:17
jdubhrm, i don't seem to have an ssh key on there05:18
jdubspiv: http://www.gnome.org/~jdub/random/offlineimap_4.0.4_all.deb05:19
spivjdub: Hmm, reading a bit, the instructions under the "PROPOSED" heading of WartyWarthog/DesktopSeed suggest I should do something slightly different.05:19
spivjdub: Does that just mean the text there is out of date?05:20
jdubspiv: kind of05:20
jdubspiv: we should be maintaining those on the hoary pages now05:20
spivThat's what the instructions say too ;)05:20
spiv"If your proposal is not a major priority, please put it in HoaryHedgehogSupportedSeed under PROPOSED"05:21
spivExcept for consistency, it should be HoaryHedgehog/SupportedSeed...05:21
spivAnd you told me /DesktopSeed :)05:21
jdubbut for offlineimap it really should be DesktopSeed ;)05:21
spivThus, I am forced into making a decision!05:21
spiv(I choose to pester you ;)05:22
spivOk, fine with me.05:22
spivI'll also update the link to point to HoaryHedgehog/SupportedSeed, seeing as that page doesn't exist yet.05:22
danielsGAH ATI DEATH STAB05:31
mdzspiv: the instructions there, about the type of bullet point and all, are still applicable05:31
mdzdaniels: nvidia 4 life!!1105:31
danielsmdz: boooo05:32
danielsmdz: i'm working from the pciids.sf.net, ati devrel, x.org driver, and discover lists of all ati pci cards05:32
danielsthey're all incomplete05:32
mdzdrivers are hard, let's go shopping05:33
danielsthis isn't even the driver :P05:34
mdzit's choosing the driver05:35
jdubmdz: so, atm, gstreamer0.8-mad and friends end up in supported via extra05:35
mdzdude, it could be so much worse05:35
mdzthey could be ISA cards05:35
jdubmdz: they're not blacklisted out into universe05:35
danielsmdz: fwiw, i'm adding all the r4xx series (x600/x800/et al), but setting them to the vesa driver while we still lack support05:35
mdzjdub: extra stuff doesn't automagically go into supported; it ends up in universe05:35
mdzit should, anyway.  if something moved recently, elmo needs to process it05:36
mdzdaniels: why? won't it fall back to vesa anyway?05:36
jdubi've moved some of those recently;05:36
jdubshouldn't be related though from germinate's perspective05:37
danielsmdz: no05:38
danielsmdz: ati will say 'OH SHIT I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THIS CARD TOO BAD SUCKAH'05:38
spivmdz: Well, I added it to DesktopSeed, as instructed by jdub, but I did put it under a PROPOSED heading with an a. bullet.05:39
jdubthat's way perfect05:39
=== mdz_ [~mdz@69-167-148-207.vnnyca.adelphia.net] has joined #ubuntu
tvon|x31In reading the latest kernel thread on the list, it mentions wireless issues iwth the current kernel.  Is the 'current' kernel considered to be 2.6.7-1?06:03
diemandaniels: i've been using nvidia at work for the most part.06:05
diemandaniels: the ati closed source drivers are impossible to support as they currently stand, imo06:05
diemanthe nvidia ones are surprisingly easy06:05
jdubtvon|x31: yes06:07
jdubtvon|x31: no drivers/firmware atm06:07
tvon|x31jdub: ah, okay06:08
danielsthe ati closed-source drivers are total shit from a user's point of view06:10
danielsfrom my point of view, they are only interesting for r4xx 3D support (x600/x800/et al), the Macrovision bits and TV Out for all Radeons06:10
diemani've basically told people who buy the cards to get something else06:10
danielsand ... that's it06:10
danielsstill, ATI are working to rectify the situation, and they play really well with X.Org from a vendor's point of view06:11
danielsif nVidia died tomorrow, I wouldn't care much at all06:11
danielswe'd get about as much co-operation from them06:11
=== Riff smirks
Riffnvidia don't care about X.org?06:11
Riffor don't care about the community at all?06:11
tvon|x31all they care about is nugs and grindage06:12
danielsthere is a magic number floating around relating to deployments of Linux and other open systems; when that number is hit, nVidia will re-examine that strategy06:13
danielsbut, put it this way: their 'open source' driver is total shit, and unusable06:13
danielsthere are no symbols.06:13
danielsall the register pokes are poking random constant hex values into random constant hex values06:14
danielsi've no idea whether that's enabling the primary head in the crtc, or instructing the card to suicide06:14
Riffwould nvidia license their source?06:15
Riffnot to include in X.org06:16
Riffbut for you to look at and make work06:16
danielsnvidia will not give us specs, docs, or anything06:17
danielsati have given us specs, cards (beyond what's in x.org), and dev access06:17
hrdwrbobbut they didn't write a large chunk of their driers apparently either06:17
danielsbasically, everything short of strippers and beer06:17
Riffnot even for large wads of cash?06:17
danielshrdwrbob: no06:17
danielsRiff: no06:17
RiffI wonder what they're trying to protect06:17
danielsit's just like intel; they gave tungsten some early-release i915 boards and docs, and tungsten shot a driver over to x.org06:18
tvon|x31but booze & hookers would help06:18
jdubRiff: let me know what you think about the battstat/wifi icons06:18
RiffSince I didn't really think they had the market lead at the moment anyway06:18
danielsapparently they don't want anyone else to put out a driver, since they currently have a canonical (sorry) nvidia driver out there that everyone uses and loves (except x hackers, who despise it)06:19
Riffjdub: I haven't seen them yet, are they going upstream?06:19
Riffdaniels: I can understand that, it probably fits their business model06:19
danielsgod I hate the nv driver :\06:19
Riffhowever, it seems surprising that they won't let X developers tell them where they are going wrong06:20
Riffthey don't employ any X developers per se, do they?06:20
danielsthey employ mark vojkovitch, who does the nv driver, and was the main architect of xaa06:21
jdubRiff: if they don't suck06:21
Riffjdub: I haven't used updated ubuntu yet, so I haven't seen them06:22
RiffI would reinstall my laptop if I had time06:22
Riffand I would install it on my desktop if I had a screen handy06:22
tvon|x31jdub: where might they be?06:22
jdubnah, they just went in06:22
jdubdon't think the package is finished building yet06:23
Riffand possibly a videocard, I'm not sure if I have one of those either06:23
RiffI need to get onto the HAL mailing list06:23
Riffand chat with the HAL guys about getting battery support in HAL06:23
jdubthat'd be rad06:23
RiffHAL is now a hard dependancy on the desktop isn't it?06:23
jdubpretty much, with gnome-volume-manager06:24
mdz_all hail hal06:24
jdubi don't think anyone would have an issue with further use06:24
jdubMEATY HAL!06:24
mdz_all your devices are belong to hal06:24
jdubexcept the solaris guys06:24
Riffjdub: I want to see gnome 2.10 with HAL for gnome-vfs06:24
jduband the freebsd guys06:24
mdz_jdub: ...and it has to work on Solaris, too06:24
Riffit will solve a lot of weirdarse problems06:24
jdubRiff: well, 2.8 has support for it, but i'm not entirely confident is stable :)06:24
mdz_jdub: just kidding!06:24
jdub"just kidding!"06:25
Riffjdub: I'm using it at the moment06:25
Riffit mostly works06:25
RiffI'm going to hack on it later on06:25
jdubwe haven't enabled it for warty06:25
jdubRiff: see that image?06:25
Riffin "always display devices mode" it doesn't display the devices for the first time till you mount them06:25
mdz_I wonder when Mithrandir wakes up06:25
Riffand in "only display mounted devices, ala MacOSX mode" it doesn't seem to work properly at all06:26
RiffI want the second one to work06:26
Riffit should also detect drives can't can't detect insertions/hotplugs06:26
Rifflike my floppy drive06:26
Riffjdub: the images seem cool06:26
Riffhow does the battery applet work now?06:27
RiffI assume greyed out means it's empty or not there06:27
jdubinstead of the red exclamation mark06:27
Riffwhat does it look like when charging?06:27
mdz_jdub: not sure I like the red in the disabled mode; did you already say you were changing that?06:27
jdubthis is just the one icon change06:27
jdubmdz_: yeah06:27
Riffoh right, have you turned off the giant battery image that goes next to it?06:27
jdubmdz_: i can't just be grey, because 'no link' is also grey ;)06:28
jdubRiff: yeah06:28
mdz_jdub: this stuff doesn't seem to be built in Warty yet, so I can't see it here06:28
jdubmdz_: nah, just uploaded06:28
Riffjdub: so it's not as "insanely" cool as I'd thought06:28
Riffthe wireless stuff looks easier to read though06:28
mdz_would hal in gnome-vfs mean that gnome-volume-manager could go away?06:29
Riffmdz_: no06:29
jdubmdz_: no06:29
mdz_what's the use case?06:29
Riffmdz_: gnome-volume-manager manages the volumes06:29
Riffcompared to gnome-vfs-daemon which isn't always running06:29
mdz_what would gnome-vfs do with hal apart from manage volumes?06:29
RiffI _guess_ they could be merged06:29
Riffmdz_: it's simply talking to HAL to get the volume names and properties06:30
Riffrather then reading fstab06:30
Riffit only changes two files iirc06:30
jdubRiff: not really, gnome-vfs (and thus gnome-vfs-daemon) can be used in non-gnome apps06:30
Riffjdub: excellent point06:30
jdubpolicy engine should be separate to a certain extent, at least in this case06:31
jdubwe do have a BUTTLOAD of session daemons though06:31
Riffit's part of our MODULAR DESIGN06:31
jdub(i wonder how many will die off as we start using d-bus more...?)06:32
RiffI have 42 live processes06:32
jdubgconfd *could* die off, if libgconf did most of the work06:32
Riffignore galeon, evolution, gnome-terminal (and bash)06:32
Riffthat takes my desktop down to 38 processes06:33
=== jdub wonders if mapping-daemon could be integrated into gnome-vfs-daemon
Riffoh wait, ignore 3 more on a tty06:33
Riff35 processes06:33
Riffjdub: gconfd does a lot of caching and deals with policy shit06:33
Riffit's probably a good idea06:33
jdublibgconf *could* do that06:34
Riffit also makes our backend pluggable if we ever go down that path06:34
Riffjdub: how would you do multiple session caching?06:34
Riffperhaps I've been hanging out with UNIX too long to think of a way that doesn't involve some sort of daemon or resident program06:34
danielssweet mother of god06:39
daniels#if defined(__powerpc__)06:39
daniels  { 0x10DE0179, "GeForce4 MX (Mac)" },06:39
daniels  { 0x10DE0179, "GeForce4 440 Go 64M" },06:39
danielsbad nVidia06:39
tvon|x31anyone have issues with the latest fam starting?06:44
tvon|x31postinst is failing for me06:44
tvon|x31dies on invoke-rc.d fam start (which fails)06:46
tvon|x31though it does start fam...06:47
jdubtvon|x31: same here06:47
tvon|x31start-stop-daemon --stop --quiet --exec /usr/sbin/famd06:50
tvon|x31taint workin06:50
jdubahr, new evo release in unstable06:56
jdub94.1, yeah06:56
jdubnow i can rebuild all mine :)06:57
tvon|x31I like the wifi icon06:57
jdubof course, now i don't have an unstable machine06:57
tvon|x31granted my wifi status still doesnt work06:58
=== hrdwrbob is now known as SnowBoB
tvon|x31doesnt work in netapplet either07:00
jdub(that one's netstatus, the novell crazy suse thing is netapplet)07:01
jdub(just for clarity)07:01
tvon|x31crazy nuse thing is installed07:01
jduboh yeah, i have an unstable chroot on my notebook07:02
tvon|x31is the 2.6.8 kernel usable without much tweaking?07:03
jdubthe one on matt's site? i'm using it, no tweaking07:03
tvon|x31ah, cool07:04
=== tvon|x31 reboots
fabbionemorning guys07:13
=== tvon|x31 [tvon@dsl093-119-225.blt1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #ubuntu
tvon|x31well that didn't change much07:14
tvon|x31jdub: might want to update the icon in the battery applet preview (prefs)07:14
tvon|x31jdub: were you getting the acpid failure as well?07:16
tvon|x31and ignore what I said about the batt app07:18
jdubtvon|x31: the one in the prefs is accurate for-- aha :)07:18
mdzKamion: you're still awake?? or up early?07:25
danielsmdz: kamion is hardcore07:28
danielsfabbione: morning07:28
=== Riff discovers daniels has a livejournal
Riffthe world is upsidedown and on it's head07:29
fabbionedaniels: stupid question.. how complex would it be to make nv/nvidia driver wrapper ala ati?07:31
jdubhrm, how does firefox lock a profile now?07:32
fabbioneso that we can always call it nv07:32
fabbionebut it uses the real driver according to what is available?07:32
fabbionelike: nvidia first, otherwise use the real nv from xfree86?07:32
danielsfabbione: sweet mother of god, dude07:32
danielsi could do it tomorrow, but shit07:32
danielsthat's nasty07:32
fabbionethom: fresh install of crack of the day: gdm login -> "can't access ACPI bla bla bla"07:33
fabbionedaniels: no.. no need to do it. i am just curious how complex would it be07:33
fabbionebecause it would solve hellalot of problems07:33
mdzfabbione: yeah, it's already in bugzilla07:33
danielsfabbione: not horrifically. the biggest part would just be function() { invokeotherfunction(); }07:34
=== tvon|x31 has been getting acpi errors on the past few reboots today
mdzI think..07:34
danielsunless ... oh dear07:34
danielsyeah, you could do some abysmal hackery involving replacing its moduleinforec within the loader07:34
fabbionedaniels: think carefully... than gimme an answer :-)07:34
mdzfabbione: if it's not there, please report it07:34
mdznot sure whether it's jdub or seb's domain07:35
fabbionemdz: i will check in a sec...07:35
tvon|x31mhm...ah, but it was due to /etc/defaults/acpid having 'all' for the module list...which caused isues07:35
danielsfabbione: could be down to ~30 lines if you wanted07:35
fabbionei am still injecting coffee in my blood stream07:35
fabbionedaniels: i mean something that WORKS :P07:35
danielsfabbione: but you'd probably need to replace the config handler with your own custom one that silently threw out nvidia options when you were using nv07:35
danielsfabbione: sure you mean coffee and not smack?07:35
Riffsmack, coffee07:35
Riffit's all the same07:35
jdubmdz: i reported the acpi thing earlier, assigned to seb with thom cced07:36
Riffhe's waiting for them to fedex his Special K07:36
danielsbecause, while it would work, it's ... sweet mother of god07:36
danielsRiff: what, so he can get great legs?07:36
Riffdaniels: the other special K07:36
mdzjdub: where is it? I'm not finding it07:36
danielsRiff: a man is not a cam^Whorse07:37
jdubmdz: i don't have a web browser atm, give me a minute... ;)07:37
=== jdub is trying to fix firefox
fabbionedaniels: ok.. it's already too complex for warty07:37
fabbionedaniels: if i can't see it simple in the morning, it's not going to be better later07:37
danielsfabbione: i could do it in two hours, but especially given i not only don't own an nvidia card, but have no desire to, i can't test it07:37
=== Riff should add an entry on the page for Special K, indicating the slang term
danielsRiff: yes, hence the man's not a horse thing (complete with frenzal rhomb reference)07:38
fabbionedaniels: i can test it with no problems and anyway i think the config options are the same07:38
fabbionedaniels: i need to check the README from nvidia.com07:38
Riffdaniels: I didn't get it07:39
fabbionedaniels: tho i still think it won't make it in time for warty07:39
=== Riff does a bit of a google
danielsfabbione: basically, init would be about ten lines, trying to open nvidia and then nv, and then storming into the loader's internal structures, replacing its own moduleinfoptr with that of the one you just generated for the real submodule07:39
danielsRiff: ketamine -> horse tranquiliser, unless i'm much mistaken07:39
fabbionedaniels: that's more or less what i had in my mind07:39
danielsRiff: (and one of frenzal's albums is called a man's not a camel)07:39
Riffdaniels: among other things, yeah07:39
danielsfabbione: yeah. easy, but fuck me it's ugly.07:39
=== Riff smirks
fabbionedaniels: isn't what ati does (more or less)?07:40
danielsfabbione: guess why i always campaign for using r128/radeon directly :P07:40
danielsfabbione: ati isn't quite on that level of nasty, anyway07:40
fabbionedaniels: yeah i could guess so...07:41
Riffwoo, I have added something to Wikipedia07:43
mdzwikipedia is amazing07:44
fabbionedaniels:   * Allocated 10 patch slots (989-998) for warty.07:46
danielsfabbione: rad07:46
fabbioneso we don't clash with debian patches07:47
fabbionethis is funny07:49
fabbioneas soon as you start Totem:07:49
fabbione"Error: GStreamer developers were too lazy to assign an error code to this error. Please file a bug"07:50
=== Riff ponders doing something constructive
lamontjdub: yo08:11
jdublamont: i forget08:12
jduboh yeah08:12
jdublamont: why isn't offlineimap building in universe?08:12
=== lamont looks
jdubi pulled source and it built here fine08:13
lamontdh_python: Python is not installed, aborting. (Probably forgot to Build-Depend on python.)08:17
lamontthat'd be "missing build-depends for $200, Bob"08:17
fabbionedo we stil have the suede(??) icon problem?08:18
fabbioneor is it supposed to be fixed?08:18
=== lamont chuckles as an admin friend relates discovering a "genius" who found out how to make '>' a username....
jduboh, it build-deps on python2.3-dev, but probably not python itself ;)08:18
jdubfabbione: fix on its way08:18
lamontit _used_ to be that python2.3-dev Depended python, but no more.08:18
jdubi hate it when that happens 08:19
lamontjdub: there are about 20-30 packages that have that issue (in universe)08:19
=== lamont wonders if lifeless cares about tla-load-dirs
fabbionejdub: thanks08:20
lamontfabbione: have you been working on ximian-connector, btw?08:21
jdubi will08:21
jdubmdz fixed the current version prob08:22
jdubi've just been waiting for the new packages08:22
fabbionelamont: only evolution-webcal08:22
jdubwhich i thought were coming two days ago ;)08:22
=== lamont is playing with ximimian-connector
jdubmdz already fixed it08:22
fabbionelamont: i did a test on ximimian-connector but it was a FTBFS and i gave up.. 08:23
fabbionelamont: not knowing it at all, i didn't feel like messing with it08:23
=== lamont specializes in fixing things he knows nothing about. :-)
fabbionelamont: i am already busted enough with X08:25
fabbioneif you feel like doing an exchange :P08:25
dokolamont: do you know, what probably is wrong with gcc-3.4's sonames?08:25
lamontdoko: no clue 08:26
fabbionediff -Nur xc.orig/ xc > ../debian/patches/989_warty_add_extra_modelines_from_xorg.diff08:26
fabbionedaniels: ^^08:26
danielsfabbione: cool08:26
fabbionenow i need to remember how to add the $Id prop in svn...08:27
danielssvn ps svn:keywords foo Id08:27
fabbionei was never able to get it right at the first time08:27
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=== jdub fears ubuntu-artwork
jdubtarballs of themes? eek!08:34
jdubshould've uploaded my original u-a :|08:35
=== lamont heads to bed
lamontKamion: ln: accessing `./tmp/netboot_2.6/cd_tree/linux': No such file or directory08:36
lamontthat's from _20040801ubuntu408:37
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fabbionemdz: i found the reason why you were getting that strange resolution/virtual desktop problem09:18
=== fabbione needs more coffee
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danielsi need Keybuk09:24
danielsabout 100% more Keybuk09:24
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ik5pvxquestion: is "suspend-to-something" supposed to work out of the box on i386 ?10:20
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danielsfabbione: the discover1-data and discover1 uploads should take care of the last of our discovery worries10:45
danielsfabbione: if there are any more problems, they're in your configure scripts :P10:45
fabbionedaniels: yeah sure...10:46
danielsexcept for i810 which is partially x's fault, and partially the fault of everyone that bought an x4010:48
=== seb128 [~seb128@ANancy-111-1-1-88.w81-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu
jdubmorning seb128 10:58
seb128hey hey jdub 10:58
pittiseb128: Morning! Do you have some time to help me with adding USB device support to Nautilus?11:00
pittiseb128: I've never seen the code before, it'll take me a while to find the proper start. Do you already know where the changes must be made?11:01
seb128which USB support ?11:01
seb128I don't know a lot about the nautilus code, I've look to fix some bugs but no real big hack on it11:02
pittiseb128: if an USB volume is plugged in, gvm mounts it, but Nautilus does not show the device/allows to umount it again11:03
pittiseb128: do you know who I can ask about Nautilus code?11:03
seb128you can try on #nautilus@irc.gnome.org, usually alex is helpful but he's away right now apparently11:04
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seb128but I though you wanted to use mtab instead of fstab11:04
seb128it doesn't solve the issue ?11:04
fabbioneDIE freenode!11:05
fabbioneDIE freenode!11:05
fabbioneDIE freenode!11:05
fabbioneok... how many lines went trough?11:05
seb128daniels: was a bug in hal finally ?11:05
fabbionewhy the hell did you upload X?11:07
fabbionedo you want to tell me at least?11:07
fabbionei ahve 2 tons of changes pending11:07
pittiseb128: the word 'fstab' does not occur in the code 11:08
fabbionethe symlink is not correct... see the bug report. it is not enough to fix that problem11:08
pittiseb128: (but for some Changelogs and inclusion of <fstab.h>11:08
fabbionethe file needs to be shipped on its own11:08
pittijdub: do you happen to know which part of the Nautilus source manages the umountable devices?11:11
danielsseb128: yah11:12
jdubpitti: nup :)11:14
pittielmo: do you have any idea why the download of manpages-dev from auckland always stucks at 313 kB (32%)?11:31
elmopitti: no?  works for me...11:32
elmoGet:1 http://auckland.warthogs.hbd.com warty/main manpages-dev 1.67-1 [1045kB] 11:32
elmoFetched 1045kB in 9s (112kB/s)                11:32
pittielmo: that's odd. I tried it six times now.11:33
pittielmo: the package from debian works, though, so it's not a big problem. Thanks!11:33
fabbionepitti: it happened to me but for another package long time ago11:33
fabbionepitti: somewhere in the middle is dropping packets11:34
pittielmo: BTW, do you have any reservations regarding sync'ing postgresql?11:34
pittifabbione: but it always stopped at exactly the same point11:34
elmopitti: not particularly?  if you mean why hasn't it been done yet, I can only sync stuff once it reaches a public mirror11:34
fabbionepitti: yup.. just coincidence11:35
fabbioneelmo: do you have any eta for restricted and security? without the changes in the archive we cannot change base-config11:35
pittielmo: packages.d.o has 7.4.5-3 in sid11:36
elmopitti: yes, as of today? it hit ftp.uk.debian.org at about 2am my time.  sorry, I didn't get up to sync it then and there :P11:36
elmofabbione: as soon as I can11:37
fabbioneelmo: danke11:37
pittielmo: sorry, I did not want to urge. I uploaded yesterday, that's why I thought that there was a problem with it.11:38
fabbionewhat is a good package to do technical drawing, like house plants and such?11:50
seb128qcad ?11:52
fabbioneseb128: anything simple that works is fine. i don't need anything fancy11:53
fabbionei just need to do a house map11:53
seb128qcad should be ok ... out of this dunno11:54
fabbioneok thanks11:54
fabbionei will just install both :P11:54
=== fabbione starts another X compilation... yeppa
fabbioneseb128: qcad looks good :)12:01
seb128nice :)12:02
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Mithrandirmdz: pong.12:11
Mithrandirmdz: I'm aware that grub is broken, I didn't want to upload the version I changed, because I haven't had the time to test it yet.12:11
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seb128hey ross 12:12
rosshi seb12812:12
jdubyo ross 12:13
rossyo yo jdub12:13
pittielmo: thanks for syncing! I'll try to be less impatient next time.12:18
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jdubwhat's the variable that stores the end result names of _in_files?12:21
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rossseb128: does your gtk filechooser patch default to ~/Documents?12:54
seb128ross: if it exists, yes12:54
seb128why ?12:54
rossits a little weird when the evo import filechooser goes to ~/Documents12:55
seb128rmdir Dociments :p12:55
rossi might just do that actually12:55
jdubseb128: yaaaaay evo! :)01:00
seb128yeah ;)01:01
seb128gtkhtml3.2_3.2.0-1ubuntu1_source.changes is NEW01:02
seb128just need to get this one accepted01:02
rossseb128: is that the experimental release, or did you and takuo update at the same time?01:02
jdubi love make distcheck01:02
seb128ross: I was waiting for Kitame01:02
seb128ross: less work :)01:03
=== jdub will do the other evo bits in a minute
seb128ross: and apparently he was waiting to get the new libsoup and gal out of NEW ... they have been accepted yesterday evening, I've waited the night to see if the was going to upload the rest and it was in incoming this morning :)01:03
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seb128elmo: here ?01:10
seb128elmo: could you accept gtkhtml3.2 which is in warty/NEW ?01:10
Kamionlamont: there've been two uploads since then, one of which should have fixed exactly that issue ...01:21
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=== TongMaster waves
thomhullo craige01:29
TongMasterheya thom.01:30
elmoseb128: done - is someone (jdub?) going to be recompiling exchange* for the new gal/soup?01:44
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jdubelmo: yeah01:47
seb128elmo: thanks01:47
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jdububuntu-artwork-0.2.0.tar.gz is ready for distribution01:59
jdubthat's what i'm talking about!01:59
Kamionmdz: don't think I was still awake by 6:25, but I was up depressingly late for no very good reason02:00
rosswhen i press Synaptic nothing happens02:07
rosswhen i run the .desktop command in a shell this happens:02:07
ross$ gksudo /usr/sbin/synaptic02:07
rossWe trust you ha02:07
jdubfirst time sudo02:07
jdubcan you file a bug about first time sudo prompt?02:07
jdubthat's vicious02:07
rossi don't want to be in the sudo group, i want it to ask for the root password02:07
ross#987 filed02:09
Kamionuh, didn't we kill that prompt in sudo?02:11
KamionDefaults !lecture02:11
rosswill gksudo fall back on asking for the root password?02:12
Kamionross: upgrading or fresh install?02:12
rossKamion: upgraded install02:12
Kamionaha; you need to set Defaults !lecture. fresh installs are fine02:12
rosswhere do i do that?02:13
Kamionconventionally between "# Cmnd alias specification" and any user privilege specs02:13
Kamionthe warty default is "Defaults !lecture,tty_tickets"02:13
jdubross: there is no root password :)02:16
rossthis is an upgrade, there is02:16
jdubross: (i don't believe gksudo falls back even if there is.)02:17
jdubthat is an interesting state of affairs02:17
Kamionthat's going to be ... amusing02:17
jdubbtw, privilege elevation stuff is total b0rk in gnome02:17
Kamiongk-get-root-privileges-somehow :-P02:17
rosscould gtksudo fallback on root?02:17
KamionI think it would have to ask for the user password first, otherwise information leak ...02:18
Kamion(you could use gksudo to find out whether a user is allowed to sudo to root without having to know their password; you could then invest more time in attacking that user)02:18
Kamionmaybe this should be configured in /etc/default/02:19
Kamion(su or sudo for the desktop)02:19
Kamionor maybe a per-user preference, even02:19
rossat the end of the day, the aim is that all users here but three don't have sudo. me and two others will have sudo to reduce the number of times we type the root password02:20
Kamiondo you actually want to be logging in as root from the unprivileged users' desktops?02:20
Kamionwhat if they install a keylogger?02:21
rosswe generally ssh into the machine to avoid physical movement :)02:21
jdubmmm, sudo is the right way to elevate privileges02:21
jdubbut man, there so needs to be a consistent infrastructure for it in gnome02:21
=== fabbione is scared by himself
rosswhats the default sudoers line for the first user?02:24
thom# Added by Ubuntu installer02:24
thomthom    ALL=(ALL) ALL02:24
rossrock on02:24
thomKamion: i'm assuming mdz means _initial_ install in #467; is taking a similar approach as scrollkeeper reasonable do you think?02:25
fabbione"last" bug and X ubuntu14 is ready to rock and roll02:27
lamontfabbione: great!02:28
fabbionea lot of improvements02:28
fabbioneand a lot of bug fixes02:28
fabbioneacutally i wonder how ubuntu12 could detect frequencies with the crap i found02:28
fabbionea completely missing db_get02:28
Kamionthom: was thinking about it, but not entirely sure I want to overload that mechanism02:30
fabbionelamont: anyway don't worry.. i won't upload before monday02:30
fabbionei need to do more regression tests02:30
Kamionpython postinsts do somewhat grungier things than just 'scrollkeeper-update', IIRC02:31
fabbionelamont: and complain to daniels for ubuntu13 :P02:31
thomKamion: $PYTHON /usr/lib/$PYTHON/compileall.py -q $i02:31
fabbioneUbuntu 13, Ubuntu 13: this is houston.. we are ready to go!02:31
lamontmonday is US bank holidy, btw02:31
fabbionehouston to ubuntu 13: go to hell^Wthe moon02:31
Kamionthom: can hardly divert python :-)02:32
fabbionelamont: i was just worried about your mirror :-)02:32
fabbioneAHH GOT IT!02:33
fabbionei found it02:33
lamontfabbione: don't worry too much -OO.o just came through yesterday.  It really just affects how often I can upgrade02:33
Kamionfabbione: note Sounder 8 on Monday02:33
fabbioneKamion: you said that it could be moved to tuesday02:33
lamontfabbione: which means that you really wanna upload no later than sunday02:34
thomKamion: not planning to; just divert the script to a trivial one that returns true02:34
fabbioneKamion: i need to get ubuntu14 in02:34
fabbionelamont: i can't. I am leaving for the weekend in like 1 hour or so02:34
Kamionfabbione: Tuesday> true, but only if I really, really have to02:34
Kamionthom: ugh02:34
fabbioneKamion: i have been working a shit load of hours this week and i am need to take a little break.02:34
thomKamion: not saying i like it02:34
fabbioneKamion: i will be a work monday like 5 am UTC02:35
Kamionfabbione: sure, but delayed Sounder releases mean *I* work a shitload of hours :(02:35
Kamionhence why I try to avoid them :)02:35
fabbioneKamion: it's just question of 1 or 2 hours02:35
fabbioneKamion: time that i complete the regressions and upload02:35
fabbioneKamion: if lamont fixes the buildd to do X without manual kick we are ok02:35
thomKamion: it's a better short term fix than trying to rewrite every postinst02:36
Kamionthom: what happens to maintainer scripts that use python modules between the diverted-so-doesn't-happen compileall and the point when base-config actually does it?02:36
Kamionfabbione: as long as it doesn't mean me staying up all night and ignoring my girlfriend02:36
thomKamion: python modules get compiled at first use02:36
fabbionelamont: ???02:36
thomKamion: the postinst is just an optimisiation, it's not necessary02:36
fabbionelamont: what's the status of the buildd?02:36
fabbionelamont: can they handle X on their own?02:36
lamontfabbione: empirical evidence suggests that amd64 is the only one I have to kick manually, and 6am UTC isn't even bed time...02:36
Kamionthom: I guess ... ok, fine by me as long as you do it :)02:37
fabbionelamont: i will need to complete the tests before i upload02:37
fabbionelamont: than it's up to you02:37
thomheh :-)02:37
fabbioneKamion: do you need to release for amd64 too?02:37
jdubhrm, i just want to install an entire tree of files with automake02:37
jdubcan i avoid writing crackrock install-data-local foo?02:37
Kamionwe're one week from preview release, dude, dropping architectures isn't an option02:37
elmolamont: why do you have to kick amd64?02:38
lamontKamion: meaning amd64 officially made it back into the list.  cool.02:38
Kamionlamont: speaking of, is daily-installer-amd64 working?02:38
lamontelmo: that's what I'm going to figure out today.  it's a postfix config diff02:38
lamontKamion: this mornings ran fine.02:38
fabbionei will try to upload before i leave02:38
lamontyesterday, um..  don't ask.02:38
Kamionok, yeah, I see it in the list now. cool!02:40
thomKamion: oh, what's the status of amd64 cds? should the current daily even remotely work?02:40
Kamionthom: functional; apparently grub issues02:40
thomok, not fussed about grub02:41
Kamionminor details like a bootloader, eh? :)02:41
elmoyeah, bootloaders are for losers02:41
Kamionreal men toggle the OS in on the front panel02:41
KamionIN TERNARY02:41
Hrdwr_BoBreal men have keyboards with one key and an innate sense of timing02:42
Kamionit's tab, and they all run zsh02:42
Kamionthom: so, what are you trying to do, if not install a bootable system? :)02:43
thomKamion: i have a bootloader already, since this dual boots with i386 ubuntu02:43
Kamionyou'll need to convince d-i not to install a broken one then02:44
Kamionexpert mode might be a plan02:44
thomit runs and breaks, or just doesn't run at all?02:44
Kamiondon't recall, see sounder@02:44
thomah, screw it. i'll burn an x86 cd as well; if it all goes tits up i can reinstall that too02:45
Kamionhm, or not02:45
Kamionmaybe it was on this channel or something02:45
=== lamont wanders for a bit
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fabbioneok.. this should work02:58
=== fabbione rethinks a few sec
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fabbioneYES YES03:10
fabbioneKamion: no phear03:10
fabbionei am going to upload now03:10
fabbionebut if the shit hit the fan we will have to deal with it on monday03:10
fabbionenpmccallum: what did you use to edit xfree86-common?03:21
fabbioneit was full of ^M03:21
fabbioneubuntu14 is up03:31
lamontfabbione: amd64 postfix config tweaked to match the other machines.  should upload hands-free now.03:33
=== lamont takes his wife to pick up her car
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fabbionelamont: Ub3r c00l03:39
fabbionei am off for the weekend03:39
fabbionecya monday guys03:39
thomciao, slacker :-)03:39
fabbionethom: you don't want to be me...03:39
fabbionea weekend with my gf and my mother in law03:40
fabbioneno net access03:40
fabbionenothing can be more boring than that03:40
fabbioneother than pubs closing at 11pm :P03:40
thompub closes at midnight here on the weekend ;P03:41
Mithrandirthat's just silly.03:42
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Kamionhm, with today's daily I get "Can't access ACPI events in /var/run/acpid.socket!" at login04:00
pittiHOOORAY! After hours of code reading and patching, gnome-vfs (and Nautilus) finally works with pmount04:00
thompitti: rock04:03
tvon|x31Kamion: check /etc/defaults/acpid04:03
tvon|x31if it has MODULES="all" try changing it to just what you need/want04:04
Kamionyeah, that's probably it04:04
thomKamion: yeah, known problem. it's fixed in the archive04:04
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tvon|x31fam still wont pass postinst04:15
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tvon|x31hrm...is a new evo on its way up?04:24
rossi noticed synaptic thought it better to remove evo than to upgrade gtkhtml04:25
rossthus i thought it was broken at first04:25
thomtvon|x31: have you filed a bug about fam?04:26
tvon|x31thom: not yet, figured I'd wait a day04:26
tvon|x31which...would be today :)04:26
thomtvon|x31: please file before the weekend :-)04:28
tvon|x31hrm, where is the zilla?04:29
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu:Kamion] : SSDS | http://sounders:oink@wiki.no-name-yet.com/ | Sounder CD 7 released | bug tracking at https://bugzilla.no-name-yet.com/
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tvon|x31thought I tried that...04:31
tvon|x31or not..  Thanks04:31
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thommdz is gonna hate me for #88605:22
lamontthom: why not just binNMU libapache2_mod_python?05:26
lamont"So this works fine with just a recompile in warty."05:27
thomlamont: need to sync apache2 anyway05:27
lamontoh. ok.05:27
lamontum, why?05:27
thomsecurity vulns05:27
rossship them a week after you release, it looks like the security team are doing work then05:28
=== lamont whaps ross
thomlamont: subversion needs fixes from a2, so that should be fixed. and i'd prefer to keep python and php in sync whilst we still can05:29
lamonthrm... brb05:32
thomtvon|x31: do you have the newest lsb-base? 05:35
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seb128hello kagou 05:39
kagoulo seb128 :)05:40
kagouacpid don't launch on boot since upgrade05:40
kagoumorning mdz :p05:40
mdzthom: 886 is resolved...?05:41
mdzthom: more apache2 vulnerabilities? gah05:41
thommdz: it probably shouldn't be, actually.05:41
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thombut yes, there are 2 fixed in 2.0.50-1105:42
=== edd pops in
thomhey dude05:45
=== ross pops out
=== lamont goes back into town to do some stuff at the kids school - anything before I disappear for 2-4 hours?
eddthey thom.05:45
lamontross needs a better bra. :-)05:45
eddhow's today's daily image? i need one to take to oreilly with me.05:45
rosslamont: that wasn't what popped out, dammit ;)05:46
=== ross looks sadly at his man tits
=== lamont heads off
=== ross obviously needs to have a weekend
thomkagou: upgrade lsb-base and acpid05:54
kagoui'm up to date05:54
thomwhat error do you get?05:55
kagoui don't find error :/ where do i search from ?05:55
kagouacpid works, but i must launch it manually in a root sterm05:56
thomrun "/etc/init.d/acpid stop;/etc/init.d/acpid start" on the terminal05:57
thom(as root)05:58
thomsudo -s first, if necessary05:58
kagouok i have error on start05:59
kagou * Unable to load module: toshiba_acpi05:59
thomconfirm that you've got acpid 1.0.3-19ubuntu8 installed? (dpkg -l acpid)06:00
kagouyes it is06:01
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thomin /etc/defaults/acpid, change MODULES to 'MODULES="battery ac processor button fan thermal" '06:02
thomkagou: ok, fixed. just uploading06:09
kagouthom, it's ok06:10
kagoucommented MODULES="all" and uncommented  MODULES="battery ac processor button fan thermal"06:10
kagourestart acpid by init script . It's ok06:11
kagouthom, please close this https://bugzilla.no-name-yet.com/show_bug.cgi?id=99106:14
thomno, that's a workaround, not a fix06:17
mdzthom: so in 886, you said it works fine in Warty, and then proposed syncing 3 packages? :-/06:21
thommdz: i said it worked once recompiled. 06:25
mdzthom: yeah, so can't we just recompile it instead? ;-)06:26
thommdz: we _can_, yes06:27
mdzthom: which packages did you recompile in your test?06:28
npmccallummdz: we'll need to raise the kernel logging threshold to clean up the boot process, where does debian traditionally do that?06:30
thommdz: ok. we _have_ to sync apache2. i strongly recommend that we sync subversion and php4 at the same time06:30
thommod_python can probably just be recompiled after that sync06:30
mdznpmccallum: /etc/sysctl.conf06:31
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mdzthom: the apache2 changelog scares the hell out of me06:33
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mdzthom: why subversion and php4 at the same time?06:35
thommdz: subversion relies on at least one of the changes in -11 (the sticky bit fix to apr)06:35
thomphp4 has some serious issues which can be security/privacy related (the way session files are handled and GCd)06:37
mdzthom: all three of those seem to have ubuntu-specific versions06:37
thommdz: the change in apache2 is the same as 2.0.50-806:40
thomsubversion is 1.0.5-1 in warty06:41
mdzsubversion | 1.0.6-1.2ubuntu1 | http://ftp.no-name-yet.com warty/main Sources06:41
mdzwho broke evolution again, right after I fixed it?06:43
mdzubuntu-desktop is uninstallable again06:43
mdzdid we get one working daily in between?06:44
Keybuknew versions of evo are pretty much coming out hourly at the moment :-/06:44
thommdz: i'm happy to sync across just the security related fixes, but i don't think that's a good option given that we can trivially sync the changes. 06:46
mdzthom: I think we need to break down the issues here...I didn't understand why we needed to sync new versions of 4 packages in order to fix something which was apparently rectified by recompiling libapache2-mod-python06:47
mdzthom: so apache2 needs security fixes06:47
thomok. i shouldn't have conflated the two things06:48
mdzthom: libapache2-mod-python could be recompiled, but there's other stuff we want to sync?06:48
thommod-python can be recompiled06:48
mdzthom: subversion  in sid seems to be identical, modulo changelog06:48
mdzand the build-dep we fixed for ubuntu06:48
mdzthom: yes, let's handle them one at a time06:49
mdzthom: let's do apache2 first; you want to request a sync?06:50
mdzI have to say I'm nervous about it06:50
mdzthe entire -12 changelog sounds like stuff that is not needed for the warty release06:51
Keybukmdz: looks like seb uploaded evo, and the new gtkhtml -- but the new gtkhtml packages aren't in ubuntu-desktop, the old ones are, and *of course* they conflict06:51
mdzseb128: can this be fixed today?  it's very important to me that our daily CD builds work at this point06:51
seb128what ?06:52
=== seb128 reads the previous lines
mdzThe following packages have unmet dependencies:06:52
mdz  evolution-exchange: Depends: evolution1.5 (>= 1.5.93) but it is not installable06:52
seb128let me look why evolution1.5 is no installable06:53
seb128it should be06:53
thommdz: ok. the issues are this. -11 fixes three security problems.06:53
Keybukseb128: gtkhtml3.2 conflicts with gtkhtml3.106:53
Keybukthe latter is in ubuntu-desktop, the former isn't06:53
seb128just drop 3.1 so and replaces it by 3.206:53
seb128ok, just change the seed so06:53
mdzit's not a seed problem06:53
seb128what's the problem so ?06:53
Keybuksomething's missing a Task: line ?06:53
Keybukor is that done in overrides?06:53
thomCAN-2004-0748, CAN-2004-0751 and debian #26619806:54
mdzseb128: evolution1.5 and evolution-data-server cannot be installed simultaneously06:54
seb128mdz: gni ?06:54
mdzThe following packages have unmet dependencies:06:54
mdz  evolution-data-server: Conflicts: evolution1.5 (< 1.5.94) but 1.5.93-1 is to be installed06:54
mdz  evolution1.5: Conflicts: evolution-data-server (>= 0.0.99) but 0.0.99-1ubuntu1 is to be installed06:54
seb128apt-cache policy evolution1.5 ?06:54
thomthe latter is a fix to stop apr creating all directories with the sticky bit set06:55
mdz  Installed: 1.5.93-106:55
mdz  Candidate: 1.5.93-106:55
Keybukmdz: update ... evo is in the archive right now06:55
mdzthom: I am 100% OK with those changes06:55
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seb128mdz: I've uploaded all the piece in the same time this morning06:55
mdzok, I guess I need an apt-get update06:55
Keybukthere does need to be a task change, and gtkhtml3.1 needs to be kicked into oblivion, I think that's an elmo problem though?06:56
mdztasks are set in overrides06:56
thommdz:  #264645 can be a denial of service. 06:57
Keybukwhich reminds me, I have a "leaktraver" in the "c-dev" task in my list ... it's the only thing in it ... is that a bodge?06:57
thomoh, and -11 ensures mod_proxy works correctly.06:58
thom-12 is entirely trivial cleanups and correctness06:58
mdzthom: that's ok with me too06:58
mdzthom: I think I would in fact be OK with -1106:58
mdzthom: -12 is "gee, wouldn't it be nice to start messing with the default config files about now?"06:59
thommdz: not sticlty true. it modifies the default site, and ensures that the documentation works07:00
thomthe actual server config file is unchanged07:00
seb128mdz: seems to be fine for evolution here, do you still have some problem with an update ?07:00
mdzseb128: no, fine now07:01
mdzlooks like my last update was in the middle of your uploads07:01
seb128my uploads was about 6 hours ago07:01
seb128but time to get all built I guess07:01
mdzyes, that's about when my cron job runs07:01
thommdz: for php, i'm happy to recommend we just bring across the changes for session files07:05
Kamionmdz: today's daily worked, anyway07:05
mdzthom: by all means07:05
mdzthom: I'm going to eyeball the -12 changes07:05
mdzKamion: oh, good07:05
[Clint] any amd64 news?07:06
KamionI had an idea for working around the way base-config nukes stuff archive-copier has copied into the apt cache, in a slightly more pleasant way than before07:06
Kamioncopy base .debs into /target/var/cache/apt/archives/, but copy non-base .debs into /target/var/cache/archive-copier/07:06
Kamionin base-config (after nuking the cache), move the contents of /var/cache/archive-copier/ to /var/cache/apt/archives/07:07
Kamionthat way we don't need any messy debconf question propagation at all, and the cache ends up slightly smaller 'cos you can lose the contents of base07:08
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Kamion(I have this about three-quarters implemented and am about to test it)07:08
thomnpmccallum: please ensure that you have the dependencies on lsb-base correct when you upload init scripts07:09
npmccallumthom: please read the update I posted to your bug07:09
npmccallumthom: lsb-base is part of base07:09
npmccallumthom: all the sysvinit stuff depends on it07:10
Keybuknpmccallum: but file-rc doesn't ?07:10
Kamionyou still need versioned dependencies if you're relying on new features of it07:10
npmccallumKamion: I'll double check that07:10
Kamionthe same goes for Essential packages in Debian07:11
npmccallumKeybuk: that is a bug, we can change that07:11
thomnpmccallum: i have it installed. you haven't ensured that i have the correct version07:11
thomthus, you're breaking my system07:11
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thom(and lots of other peoples)07:11
Keybukit's always better to over-specify your dependencies than under-specify them07:11
npmccallumso what needs to be done? does each package with a script need to depend on a certain version of lsb-base (thats a lot of packages)? is there a better way to handle it?07:13
KamionI think each one needs to depend, yes; we're trying to support upgrades as well as fresh installs07:14
thomif you're changing them all anyway, you can do the control file changes as you do it07:14
npmccallumthom: they're already all done is the problem07:14
npmccallumthom: though, I suppose we may be able to script it07:16
Kamionthere're about a dozen done at the moment, aren't there?07:16
Kamionif you give me a list and the dependencies they need to have I can rattle through them fairly easily07:17
npmccallumand 21 in the queue07:17
npmccallumI'll script it07:20
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Kamion(The best alternative I can think of, BTW, is to make it work even if lsb-base is totally missing; but I'm guessing that's too much work.)07:22
npmccallumKamion: thats the whole reason why we created the lsb-base package (so its available in base)07:22
Kamionthere's a good reason for it to be in base outside of dependencies, though07:24
Kamionit means that the first reboot after installation does the same as all subsequent reboots07:24
npmccallumSo what is the best way to handle the current situation?  Do all packages with initscripts need to depend on lsb-base?  Or is there a more central solution?07:26
Kamionthey have to have a dependency on something that ensures that what they need is available; there's no way around that07:27
npmccallumthom: btw, the new initscripts uncovered a bug -- acpi-support loads before acpid.  however, acpid loads the modules for acpi, which acpi-support needs to grep the battery status07:27
thomah, file a bug. i'll fix that07:28
npmccallumKamion: ok, I'll have to wait until they all enter the archive before I can really script a fix07:28
KamionI mean, the same goes for new features in coreutils or whatever; you don't have to depend on coreutils just because you need ls, but if you're using ls --new-funky-option then you need a versioned dependency07:29
Kamion(there was a slightly more sensible real-life example with rmdir a few years back)07:29
mdzthom: ok, if you're confident, let's do apache2 -1207:30
mdzthom: go ahead and send the request07:31
npmccallumthom: what email address do I assign it to?07:31
npmccallumthom: (the acpi-support bug)07:31
thommdz: will do07:31
thomnpmccallum: just put thom in the field, bugzilla will do the rest07:31
mdzthom: so do we know for certain what the breakage is with mod-python?  I thought we missed out on the ABI skew that Debian apache2 underwent07:58
Kamiongaaaah, the CD I just burnt had a ONE-BYTE mistake on it07:59
thommdz: we did. 08:06
mdznpmccallum: is there a way to dump the hal properties for a specific device, similar to what you get in the "Advanced" tab in h-d-m, but from the command line or otherwise cut-and-pasteable?08:35
npmccallummdz: there is, I just don't remember off the top of my head, let me check08:38
npmccallummdz: lshal08:41
mdznpmccallum: ah, thanks08:41
npmccallummdz: though, not for a specific device, but you can cut and paste08:42
mdzgood enough08:42
thommdz: i'll check into exactly what the breakage is on monday08:48
=== thom giggles at the who's who comment
npmccallumKamion: do the udebs need a depend on lsb-base too? (do they include an initscript?)08:58
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mdznpmccallum: no, udebs don't have init scripts09:15
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debianisthowdy all10:01
debianistmy first time here :)10:01
thomhi there10:01
debianistwould like to know if testing the live cd give a good idea of the hd installed system10:01
debianisthi thim10:02
mdzdebianist: not really, at present10:02
mdzdebianist: the live CD is quite out of date compared to the install CD10:02
mdzthat should be rectified early next week10:02
debianistI see10:03
pittimdz: regarding #996 (wow, does bug #1000 get a price?): what do you mean by "correct permissions on the device"?10:03
debianistthere should be no problem installing ubuntu next to my alredy installed debian sid right ?10:03
pittimdz: are the permissions of the root mountpoint wrong?10:03
mdzpitti: no, the permissions on the block device10:03
mdzpitti: they come up as root/disk 66010:03
mdzlike other SCSI disks10:04
mdzbut they should probably be plugdev or similar10:04
pittimdz: hmm. Why should users write directly to the device?10:05
pittimdz: shall they be able to create partitions?10:05
npmccallummdz: I'm fixing the grub splash thing now (removing grub splash)10:05
pittimdz: BTW, I just got a reply from hald upstream. He eventually adopted my changes :-)10:05
npmccallummdz: however, there is a bug in the old package that makes update-grub be called *before* splash.xpm.gz is removed, therefore it doesn't update the config properly on removeal10:06
mdzpitti: hal should be able to poll it to notice when media is inserted10:06
mdzpitti: as it does for cdrom and floppy10:06
npmccallummdz: please advise :)10:06
pittimdz: ah! That is, the device needs to be in a group that hald also runs in, right?10:06
mdznpmccallum: hmm?  I thought the image was shipped as part of the ubuntu-artwork deb10:07
mdzand update-grub called in the postinst10:07
mdzpitti: correct10:07
pittimdz: so pmount could change the group to plugdev?10:07
pittimdz: okay, if that helps, I can do that. I cannot test it, though10:07
npmccallummdz: yes, but we are removing grub-splsah10:07
pittimdz: I have to upload a new version anyway to fix that mount point "permission denied" problem10:07
mdznpmccallum: if it is part of the deb, it will be removed during the unpack phase, and then when postinst runs it should be gone already10:08
Keybuknot quite true ...10:08
npmccallummdz: I just tested it, and it didn't work on my system10:08
pittiOkay guys, weekend. I'm going to bed now. Have a nice weekend!10:08
mdzpitti: no, that would not fix the problem10:08
Keybukbut close enough :)10:08
mdzpitti: the devices are only readable by group disk10:08
pittimdz: oh?10:08
mdzpitti: that needs to be fixed to be a different group, and then hal can be added to that group10:08
mdzpitti: I thought plugdev made sense, but it doesn't much matter. cdrom is just as good, though the name is misleading10:09
pittimdz: but if pmount changes the group to plugdev and hald additionally runs in plugdev?10:09
mdzpitti: pmount will never be called unless hal can read the device10:09
npmccallummdz: when ubuntu-artwork is upgraded, it *does* run update-grub, but before the splash file is removed, then it removes the splash file10:09
npmccallummdz: the dangling referance to that file will cause grub to freak out10:09
mdzhold on, I'll look at the package10:10
pittimdz: Argh. So this actually means that hald has to run in group disk? I would not like that because it means that hald could actually write to all disks10:10
pittimdz: if we change the devices to group plugdev, this would be the job of udev, right?10:10
mdznpmccallum: hmm, didn't we talk about this already?10:11
mdznpmccallum: the way that ubuntu-artwork does its postinst/postrm is not correct10:11
mdznpmccallum: #50110:11
mdznpmccallum: you marked it fixed, but it doesn't look like the changes are in -1410:12
npmccallummdz: argh, I'll get it fixed10:12
mdznpmccallum: added some notes to the bug with my thoughts; I thought I had already said more, but either I wrote it outside of bugzilla, or maybe commented on the wrong bug or something10:15
pittimdz: so shall I try to modify udev to assign plugdev group to usb and firewire devices?10:17
pittimdz: IDE and fixed SCSI devices should stay in disk, of course10:17
mdzpitti: can udev tell the difference?10:17
mdzI thought it might need to be done in hotplug10:17
mdzbut either way, yes10:18
jdubholy crap10:18
mdzpitti: really, all removable scsi devices should be owned by cdrom or similar10:18
mdzoh, they are10:18
jdubnpmccallum: hrm, ignore ubuntu-artwork bugs for the moment10:18
mdzpitti: yes, they don't show up as scsi removable10:18
pittimdz: do you actually know a program that relies on the fact that devices are writeable by group disk?10:18
mdzpitti: they show up as scsi fixed disks (sd)10:18
jdubnpmccallum: on my way towards uploading a substantially different package10:18
mdzpitti: no, I don't10:18
pittimdz: maybe it is enough to just chmod the devices to 64010:18
npmccallumjdub: ok10:19
pittimdz: then hald could run in group disk, could do media detection and even filesystem detection10:19
mdzjdub: does it incorporate #501?10:19
pittimdz: I'll think over it and try that out. I report back on Monday.10:19
npmccallumjdub: I have plenty of other bugs to fix at the moment :)10:19
pittiGood night everybody!10:19
mdzpitti: I would email Kamion about it10:19
pittimdz: I'll do10:19
jdubmdz: will do10:20
mdzpitti, jdub: thanks10:20
npmccallummdz: portmap should start in S and stop in 0 and 6, but nothing else, correct?10:25
mdznpmccallum: that is what I suspect, but I urge you to find confirmation10:25
npmccallummdz: the rules file is pretty funky regarding the initscript10:26
mdznpmccallum: portmap (5-2.2) unstable; urgency=low10:31
mdz  * Start portmap in runlevels 2 to 5, at priority 18. Also stop it for10:31
mdz    runlevel 1 before it is killed by `single'10:31
mdz    (closes: #159925, #216107, #60367, #93599, #101726, #130360).10:31
debianistis there a possibility to do hd install from the livecd and than upgrade?10:31
mdzdebianist: no10:31
debianistok, thanks mdz10:32
npmccallummdz: yeah, I was just reading those actual bug reports10:32
debianisthow's support for lowmem, lowend machine ?10:32
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debianisti'd like to install it on a p4 512mb system, 256mb piii 800mhz system. and pi 100mhz 32mb 10:33
npmccallummdz: basically we need a test to see if portmap is already running and then exit gracefully10:33
debianist3 test machines10:33
npmccallummdz: in the initscript itself10:33
mdzdebianist: I would not recommend attempting GNOME with 32M10:33
jdubthat's just going to bite10:33
debianistgnome is installed by default?10:33
debianistoh, so server console only install is still not available?10:34
npmccallummdz: is that resolution for portmap ok with you?10:34
jdubdebianist: boot with 'custom' to do a minimal install10:34
debianistok jdub, thanks 10:34
jdubdebianist: where minimal == our large base of the good stuff :)10:34
debianistis there "tasks" to select from? or plain package lists?10:35
jdubjust custom and desktop10:35
seb128_jdub: hey10:35
debianistok, that'll do for now :)10:35
seb128_jdub: we want dynamic changes for the Documents place ?10:35
jdubseb128_: what changes?10:35
seb128_I've it working without dynamic changes for the moment (it tests at nautilus startup)10:35
seb128_show off on rmdir ~/Documents10:36
mdznpmccallum: I am not absolutely sure that it is correct for it not to start in 2-510:36
mdznpmccallum: what did you find in those bug reports?10:36
jdubseb128_: oh, the special Documents icon in nautilus?10:36
seb128_jdub: yes, I've it working with test on nautilus startup and gconf key10:36
mdzjdub: Kamion implemented an undocumented option to just install base10:36
mdzjdub: preserving the rest of the install experience10:37
jdubmdz: yeah, booting with custom, that's what i suggested10:37
seb128_jdub: but dynamic changes according to the real fs need to monitor HOME all the time apparently10:37
mdzjdub: no, custom drops the debconf priority to low10:37
jdubseb128_: that's going to bite10:37
mdzoh, I lied10:37
mdzyou're right, it's custom10:37
npmccallummdz: I just added more info to the bug report10:37
jdubnot that i've actually tried that10:37
=== jdub kicks an install on the old machine
jdubseb128_: oh man10:38
jdubseb128_: baby jesus is crying :|10:38
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Keybukand if $HOME/Documents is a mount-point, that wouldn't show up if $HOME was being monitored10:39
Keybuk*ducks and runs for cover* :p10:39
mdzaw, bug #1000 got snatched up by a bad bug report10:39
debianistwhat is the "testing" cd image for? (reading through the wiki)10:40
mdzdebianist: that is the most recent milestone10:41
mdzI recommend the current daily, though10:41
dokoseb128: I'm missing the "drawer" icon for nautilus (however there is an entry for its preferences)10:45
dokowhat kind of configuration interface does warty promote for dialin/internet access?10:46
seb128drawer icon ?10:46
dokowell, nautilus with the tree view on the left side.10:47
jdubdoko: network-admin (from gnome-system-tools)10:47
jdubmdz: which reminds me... wvdial...10:47
seb128jdub: I'm going to upload nautilus with the Documents place (check on startup and gconf key) for the moment10:48
jdubseb128: ok, thanks :)10:48
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seb128I want to speak with alex about the dynamic stuff before doing more on this10:48
debianistofcourse I'd use the daily ones, just wanted to know what kind of snapshot the "testing" represents, knowing form debian, "testing" is more of a code freeze, bug squashing in progress thingy :)10:49
debianistthe tasks with "seeking cadidate" are open to Sounder members?10:49
jdubdebianist: the sounder cds are just fortnightly builds we know will work10:49
npmccallumjdub: love the new wifi icon, but it makes me want to left click on it (like mac) :)10:50
jdubneeds to be in the gnome style though10:50
npmccallumjdub: I've actually already clicked on it like 3 times10:50
npmccallumjdub: I just mean I love the simplicity of it10:50
seb128npmccallum: what's a "pretty initscript" ? (ie: what are you changing in the script ?)10:51
debianistis there anyware on the wiki a "definition" for seed? as in group of packages etc?10:51
npmccallumseb128: all output in all initscripts is being change to use the output functions from /lib/lsb/init-functions10:51
seb128oh ok, the output10:51
jdubdebianist: there should be, forget where though10:52
jdubdebianist: a seed is a list of high-level package requirements we build the archive from10:52
npmccallumseb128: actually, I've secretly encoded picures of beautiful women into the initscript code ;)10:52
debianistjdub : like a list of dependencies?10:52
seb128npmccallum: cool :)10:52
KeybukI suspect it isn't defined on the Wiki actually10:54
jdubdebianist: essentially, yeah10:54
debianistok, shall I through in the definition?10:54
jdubdebianist: looks like Keybuk is about to10:54
debianistok, great10:54
Keybukjdub: I'm trying to *find* the definition I wrote10:54
debianistsend me the link keybuk10:54
debianistwhen you find it10:54
Keybukapt-get install google10:54
Keybuk^ if only10:54
jdubKeybuk: it'd be on Glossary10:55
jdubKeybuk: i know i wrote one there10:55
Keybukjdub: I'm trying to find the one with mdz's l33t dot madness10:56
=== jdub just did a custom install with jfs ;)
debianistnow that seed thingy is an abstract notion, or is implemented into the code of the package management / task selection mechanism?10:59
jdubmostly abstract10:59
jdubthough base defines what's always installed10:59
jdubdesktop defines what's installed with the desktop10:59
jdubship defines what's included on the cd as well as desktop10:59
jdubsupported defines what's also in main, that we support11:00
jdubKamion: custom install rocks11:01
jdubKamion: intersting observation -> it asks for the at the end,11:01
jdubKamion: but only to grab the package file or whatever,11:02
jdubKamion: and then reconfigures postfix and that's it.11:02
jdubseems weird11:02
jdubbut that's a daily from a few days ago in case anything's changed in the mean time11:02
Keybuk^ try that11:03
debianistwhaat are the plans regarding VPN support? think it's a good idea to add some network pptp config engine, to shiled users from writing pptp initiating scripts for the dialer oriented countries.11:04
debianist(that is, using VPN for adsl / cable broadband)11:04
jdubunknown at this stage11:04
eddhmm, doesn't the kernel need a patch for pptp for some MS feature?11:04
debianisti think so11:05
debianistam not sure11:05
eddi assume there are some reasons that that patch isn't in the mainline kernel11:05
eddpretty sure i had to do it for my 2.6.6 kernel11:06
debianistI had managed to install it using bf2.4 using a manually downloaded pptp updated package.11:06
jdubmako_: twat twat!11:07
jdub"Since two of my machines, and two of the hardest to rename, were already named after animals, I've decided to use animal names for the naming scheme. To keep it from being too generic, I'll use only mythical creatures for laptops, and test machines will be named after invertebrates."11:08
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debianistanyway people, i'm headed to bed. good night all.11:08
debianistdo add the seed definition, it may not be so trivial at starters.11:09
debianistthere can be like, a terminology page on the wiki which explains the policy building block.11:10
debianistjust a suggestion.11:10
mako_jdub: twat twat11:10
jdub^ BLOOOOOOOB!11:11
debianisttabase had been converted and stored on the Linux hard disk as a collection of some 100,000 files. " !!!11:12
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Kamionmdz: custom-expert (name sucks, I know) is base-only and low priority, in case you ever need that11:21
Kamionjdub: yeah; I've been ignoring that 'cos the plan is to move that apt-cdrom add to the first stage and totally remove the requirement for the CD in the second stage11:22
jduboh, goodie11:22
jdubwould a custom install still do the package copy?11:23
KamionI've just got the rest of archive-copier/base-config integration finished11:23
Kamionjdub: yes (at present, only if you boot with the relevant magic option)11:23
Kamionactually, you raise a good point there, I'll make it only copy Base11:23
jdubis it worth copying anything at all?11:24
Kamiondebootstrap would do that anyway so it's just for CD-reading speed11:24
jduboh, it happens before base install?11:24
jdubKamion: so now11:25
jdubKamion: we should put all the deb files into a zip file11:25
Kamionhey, we could call it a .cab! :-P11:26
Kamion2004-09-03 21:28:07 GMT Colin Watson <colin.watson@canonical.com>       patch-1211:31
Kamion    Summary:11:31
Kamion      Don't copy non-base packages in the custom install mode.11:31
Kamionthere we go11:31
mdzKamion: just trying an install with the current daily11:34
mdzdefault hostname came up different for some reason11:34
mdzmaybe dhcp's fault11:34
Kamionor the seeding from DNS11:34
Kamiondifferent how?11:35
mdzdifferent as in previously it had been 'ubuntu'11:35
mdzand now it's 'andy'11:35
Kamionjust lucky, I guess11:36
Kamionlook at what the IP address reverse-lookups to?11:36
mdzyeah, it came from dhcp/dns11:36
mdzsome stale dynamic record it looks like11:36
jduboh, my desktop did that11:37
jdubi thought it was cool11:37
Kamionmdz: I think you're right that it's the directory ordering on the CD that's slowing things down11:50
Kamion22115 18:18:26.680295 lstat64("/cdrom/pool/main/t/ttf-bangla-fonts/ttf-bangla-fonts_0.5-1_all.deb", {st_mode=S_IFREG|0444, st_size=263324, ...}) = 011:50
Kamion22115 18:18:26.946938 stat64("/target/var/cache/archive-copier/ttf-bangla-fonts_0.5-1_all.deb", 0x7ffffc00) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)11:50
Kamionthen the read is11:50
Kamion22115 18:18:26.947502 read(6, "!<arch>\ndebian-binary   10910590"..., 8192) = 819211:50
mdzI don't know that much about the layout of isofs11:50
Kamion22115 18:18:27.248758 write(7, "!<arch>\ndebian-binary   10910590"..., 8192) = 819211:50
mdzit could be that the directories are all stuffed into one part of the disc or something11:50
Kamionthey appear to have their own extent numbers in the same number space as files11:51
mdzbut the sort ordering in mkisofs doesn't seem to help?11:51
mdzor did you try that yet?11:51
mdz(ordering the directories explicitly I mean)11:51
Kamionhaven't tried that yet, I wanted to get this profile data first11:51
Kamion(insofar as timed strace qualifies as profile data)11:51
Kamionhere's a better example11:52
Kamion22135 18:18:30.488341 lstat64("/cdrom/pool/main/t/ttf-kochi/ttf-kochi-gothic_1.0.20030809-2_all.deb", {st_mode=S_IFREG|0444, st_size=4575814, ...}) = 011:52
Kamion22135 18:18:30.755166 stat64("/target/var/cache/archive-copier/ttf-kochi-gothic_1.0.20030809-2_all.deb", 0x7ffffc00) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)11:52
Kamion22140 18:18:33.799937 lstat64("/cdrom/pool/main/t/ttf-kochi/ttf-kochi-mincho_1.0.20030809-2_all.deb", {st_mode=S_IFREG|0444, st_size=5381872, ...}) = 011:52
Kamion22140 18:18:33.800093 stat64("/target/var/cache/archive-copier/ttf-kochi-mincho_1.0.20030809-2_all.deb", 0x7ffffc00) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)11:52
Kamionobserve the second stat in the same directory being much quicker11:52
mdzI can tell just from watching debootstrap run11:52
Kamionjust wanted to make sure it wasn't an illusion11:52
mdzbetween libc6 and i686 the drive is quiet and fast11:52
mdzlibc6 and libc6-i686 I mean11:52
mdzbut with two tiny debs from different source packages there are a couple of loud seeks and it's much slower11:53
mdzKamion: what should we do about archive-copier vs. apt-cdrom?11:54
mdzis it at all reasonable to run apt-cdrom before the reboot?11:54
KamionI have plans for that that involve running apt-cdrom from prebaseconfig11:54
mdzah, ok11:54
Kamionprobably apt-setup, in fact11:55
Kamionjust need to figure out the details of that; I could borrow code from baseconfig-udeb, perhaps11:55
Kamionhope to get all that finished by the next Sounder release11:55
Kamionhm, annoyingly debian-cd's .filelist_* files don't have a / at the end of directories, so it's kind of hard to test directory vs. file11:56
mdzthe one on Monday? or the following one?11:56
mdzhmm, the following one would be the Preview :-)11:56
Kamionthis Monday11:56
Kamiondepends whether I work at the weekend though :)11:56
jdubit's 8am saturday here :-)11:57
jdubbut i am a glutton for punishment11:57
jdubactually, it's really weird - i've been keeping sane hours in my local timezone11:57
Hrdwr_BoB8am saturday is an evil time11:57
Hrdwr_BoBI should be in the snow, but instead I'm here working11:58
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KamionHrdwr_BoB: the snow? what country are you in?11:59
Hrdwr_BoBKamion: AU11:59
Kamionduh, yeah, /whois would've told me that one11:59

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