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!lilo:*! New project channel, #fossie .... "Welcome to fossie, a project to fiddle around with the idea of a small, modular, event-driven communications framework and probably write a bit of code. :) | dlopen(), bind(), posix signals, and some miscellaneous."03:33
!lilo:*! stop by if you code and it sounds interesting03:33
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=== Topic for #launchpad: <kiko> how's england? <daf> wet <daf> but soon, I will go back to Wales <kiko> and how will wales be? <daf> probably wet, too
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=== Topic for #launchpad: <kiko> how's england? <daf> wet <daf> but soon, I will go back to Wales <kiko> and how will wales be? <daf> probably wet, too
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=== Topic for #launchpad: <kiko> how's england? <daf> wet <daf> but soon, I will go back to Wales <kiko> and how will wales be? <daf> probably wet, too
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luluSteveA: ping12:11
luluSteveA: hi Stevo. I've just sent u an email regarding Upfront and a quote on the authentication work. pls could u have a look and respond asap. Tx :o)12:12
luluelmo: ping12:13
SteveAlulu: Roche and I still need to have some discussion about exactly what he'll be doing.12:15
SteveAhe has sent me his suggestion of the API.  Now, I need to reply to that and propose some changes.12:16
luluSteveA: ok - no doubt there will be a revised quote based on that. If we can get the spec finalised and an updated quote before close of play today, that would be great. Tx Steve.12:18
SteveAon the ubuntu plone website, do all users basically have the same rights?12:19
SteveAAs I understand it, there are no different classes of user12:19
SteveAFor example, all users can access the same things, all users can comment on or edit the same things.12:20
luluMark and I discussed this yesterday. He wants anyone to be able to contribute to the content of the site.12:20
luluBut, we need to have an editor/publisher that has the final say - does a check for grammar/spelling/bad language etc etc before letting it go live.12:21
SteveAIs the editor / publisher a Person in launchpad?12:21
luluI don't see users being able to edit docs....unless it's their own....12:21
SteveAhow do we know which Person or Persons is an editor and which is not?12:21
luluwhat if someone decided to edit Ubuntu's Philosophy or license.....not good12:22
luluok - How many levels of user does Plone have in it's normal form?12:22
SteveAI don't know12:23
luluLooked to me like an owner and a manager....but i ahven't had a chance to investigate everything yet.12:23
SteveAthe API roche has proposed has an attribute for the "security roles assigned to the user"12:23
SteveAin zope2 in general, the owner is the person who created an object, and a manager can do anything at all12:23
SteveAif we are to specify who has different roles, for example, who is a manager and who is just an ordinary user, then we need to represent this in the launchpad database.12:24
luluthat's good. surely there has been a need for different levels of user in the workflow of publishing content.....in plone.....let's ask Roche if he knows of any.12:24
SteveAI think plone has workflows that you can plug in12:25
SteveAand these workflows use different roles such as "editor" and "content author"12:25
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SteveAI really don't know how it works, though, other than some notion that it has these things12:25
SteveAhi carlos12:25
luluLaunchpad database - need the same user permissions as on the website?12:25
luluhi Carlos12:25
luluSteveA: the workflow plugin, Limi and I spoke about. I thought it was inherent in Plone workflow already. I'll check with Roche then.12:26
SteveAthe main thing is that we need to know what "security roles" the plone site needs12:27
SteveAand we need to think how to represent these in the launchpad database12:27
SteveABut, if we can agree that they will definitely be in the launchpad database, and not elsewhere, then I can move forward with the API for authentication / users12:28
luluSteveA: the Launchpad roles and what people can do in the tools/apps like Rosetta, Malone, Soyuz, are different to the content creators/editors for the website.12:29
SteveAwhat people can do in rosetta etc. is based on what packages etc. that they own12:30
SteveAso yes, this is different to the website12:30
SteveAI think we need mark's input at this point.  I'll give him a call in a few minutes.12:30
luluso yes, Launchpad authentication will be different to content workflow.12:30
SteveAI need to take a "no typing" break for a few minutes.12:31
luluOk - any community member of Ubuntu should be allowed to contribute content to the website, so if they are recognised by Launchpad (logged in) then they can add content too.12:32
SteveAwhat about this "publisher / editor" role?12:34
SteveACan we simplify things, and say that we have two lots of people: people recognised in launchpad, and website admins.12:35
SteveAthe website admins are users just in plone, not in launchpad.  They are "managers" of the site.12:35
luluThat sounds fine for the web requirements. 12:39
luluBut in launchpad, you will have different permissions for a translator, maintainer, developer, release manager, security manager etc...12:39
SteveAin launchpad, a person will be able to do different things depending on their relationship to those things12:40
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luluso for Roche - anyone who is logged into Launchpad can contribute to the site. Then we have Web admins who control what content is published. That's fine.12:41
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SteveAso, we need just one class of user in the API between plone and launchpad 12:42
luluLaunchpad - I assume that's what Spiv will be writing - relationships with things.12:42
SteveAlet's stick to talking about the plone site, and what launchpad needs to say to the plone site12:42
SteveAso, andrew will be writing a simple XML-RPC server, probably using Twisted, that the plone site will talk to.12:43
luluclasses of user  - would we not need 2, because a webadmin would need to be saved in the launchpad database too.12:43
SteveAAn XML-RPC server is like a web server, but instead of serving up documents, it serves up an API that you can call from python code.12:43
SteveAthe plone site already needs some "managers" defined just in the plone site, separately from launchpad12:43
SteveAthese are needed to set up the software etc., including the software that allows plone to talk to launchpad12:44
SteveAI am suggesting that maybe we can define other users just in plone to act as editors/publishers.  I do not know if this is a workable idea or not, because I don't know much about what the ubuntu website needs to do, and how it uses different roles.12:45
SteveAIt may be a better idea to have a "WebsiteRoles" table in the database12:45
SteveAwhere we can store the "plone security roles" that a person has on the ubuntu website12:46
luluSteve - simple roles on the website. Contributor and publisher.12:47
SteveAare publishers People in launchpad?12:47
SteveAhow many publishers will there be in total?12:47
lulucontributer should be able to add and edit their own content, but the rest is read only12:47
lulupublisher - someone in charge of content for the website. A few people like Mako, Jeff, Jane, Mark etc who will need to moderate and accept material for publishing.12:48
SteveAhow many of them will there be?12:48
SteveAif it is just mako, jeff, jane and mark, and that is it, then we can have them defined in plone12:49
SteveAif it might be more later, or it might change, then we should define them in launchpad12:49
luluthat's not a definitive list - don't know how many at this stage. Perhaps more - I think this should definitely all be defined in launchpad12:49
SteveAI'm coming around to the idea that we should store roles in the launchpad database12:49
SteveAso, we need to talk to mark about adding a suitable table.12:50
luluwe are in agreement. So a user in launcpad may have a relationship with the website.12:50
SteveAfrom what roche said, in plone terms, a users has a number of "security roles"12:51
luluTalk to Mark - yes. So we need a list of all the possible roles/relationships in the system and then what their permissions will be.12:51
luludefine security roles12:51
SteveAI can't do that.  Roche used the term.  All I know is that in roche's proposed api, a person has a number of "security roles"12:52
SteveA>     roles = Attribute("security roles assigned to user")12:53
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luluWhen you finalise requirements with Roche, I'm sure you'll clarify it with him today?12:53
SteveAdaf: ping12:59
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SteveAlulu: I just spoke to mark01:36
SteveAwe can't change the database at the moment, so initially, the ubuntu website will need to let plone and its zodb manage any distinctions of roles01:37
SteveAI'll mail roche, and we'll see what he says.01:37
luludatabase - how will people log into Rosetta or Malone? is that covered in Launchpad already? via rosetta.ubuntulinux.org and malone.ubuntulinbux.org?01:38
SteveAyes, that's covered already01:39
SteveAfor the alpha, people will access it anonymously, or be able to log in.01:40
SteveAthey will need to log in to edit / change things01:40
carlosSteveA: is it working now? (the login dialog)01:40
luluok Steve - When will the database be allowed to change next?01:43
SteveAprobably when stuart gets back01:45
carlosSteveA: we cannot use the current production database with final rosetta, will Stub come back before 15th?01:46
SteveAwhat is supposed to happen on the 15th?01:47
SteveAThe rosetta alpha, which is not using the main database01:47
cprovSteveA: sorry, for the interruption, I have some few, but really urgent, patches to apply in DB, could we arrange a faster way to do it ? I mean before 15th.01:48
SteveArob collins is the acting dba01:50
cprovSteveA: tks, I will contact him directly01:51
SteveAthe procedure for getting changes to the db is documented01:51
carlosok, I think I have a concept error. I thought the 15th was the time to release rosetta Phase1 so we could use it to translate Warty01:52
SteveAfollow the procedure there01:52
carlosIn fact, I thought that we are late with alpha/beta phase...01:52
SteveAthat's what I understand is planned to happen on the 15th 01:52
carlosSteveA: https://www.warthogs.hbd.com/RosettaSchedule01:52
carlosSteveA: the schedule says that 1st of september, the beta is launched, and on 1st of october, the final release is done01:53
SteveAthat page is clearly out of date01:54
luluguys - we need to update that schedule - taskboard and schedule is responsibility of the team leader. Daf - shall we chat about this and get it up to date?01:54
carlosbut then, the ubuntu's website launch was moved to 15th of september and I thought that the phase1 release was also moved01:54
lulucarlos: yes that's correct.01:54
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lulucarlos: I'll speak with Daf and get it all up to date. 15 Sept is Alpha release goal.01:55
carloslulu: oohh, I thought that was moved the final release. I thought we were late for the alpha...01:55
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lulucarlos: oops - nope - 15 Sept is when "global"Rosetta should be released for Warty with a hardcoded home page with warty apps to be translated . It should be bug free and working. When was your new Alpha deadline set for? Daf and Steve were managing the process and redefining names etc, so I'm not up to speed.01:59
luluSteveA: Daf needs to update the schedule based on all your discussions.02:00
SteveAwe discussed an "alpha" with a throw-away database02:00
SteveAstarting on the 15th02:00
SteveAwith specific features02:00
SteveAas described in RosettaAlpha02:01
SteveAthis gives us a reasonable goal to work towards, and a useful outcome02:01
SteveAtranslation work will not be wasted, as PO files can be downloaded from it02:01
SteveAwhere is daf?02:02
luluso when is the new delivery date for Rosetta to be available for Warty apps to be translated online at rosetta.ubuntulinux.org?02:02
SteveAwe can put the alpha at that address02:04
SteveAand put warty apps into it02:04
SteveAit just won't be the main database02:04
SteveAit will have a different set of Persons who can log in02:04
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luluright - so you see the alpha launching with the Ubuntu site then?02:15
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elmolulu: yeah?03:37
luluelmo: hi James! Roche answered some questions on the Zope installation via email I had yesterday, and I wondered if you'd had a chance to have a look and action them. 03:38
elmonot yet, I've been trying to get the machine orders completed - I can take a look now if it's urgent03:39
luluthank you - yes - it's to do with the Plone products. Thanks - catch u later when you've had a look :o)03:39
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rocheHi there04:00
SteveAhi roche04:02
SteveAI'll be back in 30s!04:03
luluHi Roche!04:03
rocheHi lu04:03
rocheIs everything going according to schedule with the sites?04:03
rocheAre you busy uploading content yet?04:04
lulunot according to schedule but we're getting there. 04:04
rocheWhy is there such a rush to get the sites live so quickly?04:04
luluJames has just answered your email, so after the convo with Steve, I'd be grateful if we could make sure everything is done.04:04
luluUbunntu the preview release, comes out on the 15th, so we need to get critical content up there.04:05
luluUbuntu I meant!04:05
SteveAso, let's talk about authentication and such04:05
sabdflroche, the name is confidential,  esp in sa04:05
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SteveAhi stu04:06
luluHi Mark  and Stu :o)04:06
SteveAso, we'll make an XML-RPC service available that plone can use to authenticate against04:06
SteveAwe won't be deleting users at all, so plone shouldn't allow that either04:06
SteveAWe need to be very clear on what the api is, and that it will work.04:07
SteveALet's look at the API you suggested04:07
SteveA>     def getUser(name):04:08
SteveA>         """Returns a dictionary with the users data, otherwise returns04:08
SteveA>            None.04:08
SteveA>         """04:08
SteveAif we're using XML-RPC, then I think None will be a problem04:08
SteveAbut we can return 0 or even {}04:08
SteveAwhat would "name" be?04:08
rocheThe login name04:09
SteveA>     def addUser(name, **kw):04:09
SteveA>         """Adds a user whose id is given as 'user_id'. Additional user04:09
SteveA>         data is passed as keyword arguments.04:09
rochethat's supposed to be "given as 'name'"04:10
SteveAwe'll be using email address to log in04:10
SteveAbut, the user will be identified in the database by an integer id04:10
SteveAif people change their email address, then it would be good if their id didn't change04:11
rocheSo people cannot choose any username, it must be an email address?04:12
SteveAthere is no support in our database at present for a username04:12
luluemail address plus password?04:12
rocheSo in the above API, name should really be email_address04:12
luluanyone can access someone else's account with only an email address04:13
SteveAcan we define a few distinct concepts:04:13
SteveA* login id:  the id that someone uses to log into plone.  We're using an email address for this.04:14
SteveA* person id: a user's integer id that will not ever change, even if their name and email address does04:14
SteveA* email address: a person will have at least one email address 04:14
SteveAthat's it04:15
SteveAso, plone can ask for a user by login id04:15
SteveAplone needs to get back a dict containing information about the person who has the login id04:16
SteveAthat dict will include the 'id' which is the person id04:16
SteveAif local roles or whatever are stored in plone, then it is the person id that is important04:16
SteveAonly the database can assign a new person their person id04:17
SteveAso, if plone wants to register a new user, the call to newUser() will need to return their person id.  It could return the whole dict, of course.04:18
SteveAdoes this sound like it will work with plone so far?04:18
rocheto be clear04:19
SteveAwe need to decide what goes in the dict04:19
=== SteveA listen
=== SteveA listens
rocheplone does not make a distinction between login id and person id so04:19
rochethe plugin that gets written for exUserFolder will have to aware of this04:19
SteveAinside the dict will be 'id': person id, 'password': SSHA digested password, 'displayname': full name of the person, 'emailaddresses': list of email addresses04:22
SteveAcan the rest of the plone member data be stored in the zodb?04:22
rocheyes, that would simplify things a lot in that we don't have to update the interface for04:23
rochemember metadata all the time.04:23
SteveA    returns user dict04:25
SteveAcreateUser(login_id, ssha_digested_password, displayname, emailaddresses)04:25
SteveA    returns user dict04:25
SteveAa user dict contains04:25
SteveA    id              person id (integer, doesn't change ever)04:25
SteveA    password        ssha encrypted password04:25
SteveA    displayname     full name, for display04:25
SteveA    emailaddresses  list of email addresses04:25
SteveAdo we need an "editUser" too?04:25
rocheif want to allow editing of password and email addresses from plone then yes.04:26
SteveAwhen you do this kind of thing with ldap, does plone basically have free read/write access to the ldap server?04:28
rocheyes, but it has to authenticate as an administrative LDAP user04:30
SteveAso, the ldap password is held in plone04:30
SteveAelmo: ping?04:31
SteveAelmo is our sysadmin.  I'd like to ask him what he thinks about this.04:31
SteveAroche: you definitely want the API to return a digested password to you, rather than having to give a digested password?04:34
elmostevea: ?04:36
SteveAhi elmo04:36
rocheno, the password can be encrypted before calling addUser04:36
rochein that sense04:36
SteveAwe will be having a plone server that needs to authenticate and get some data from launchpad04:37
SteveArather than have the plone server directly access the database on emperor, we're going to set up an xml-rpc server04:37
rochethe server only stores encrypted passwords, it doesn't have to do any encryption itself04:37
SteveAso that launchpad can give it just the information it requires04:37
elmostevea: ok...04:38
SteveAthe api of the xml rpc server we're discussing looks like this:04:39
SteveA    returns user dict04:40
SteveAcreateUser(login_id, ssha_digested_password, displayname, emailaddresses)04:40
SteveA    returns user dict04:40
SteveAa user dict contains04:40
SteveA    id              person id (integer, doesn't change ever)04:40
SteveA    password        ssha encrypted password04:40
SteveA    displayname     full name, for display04:40
SteveA    emailaddresses  list of email addresses04:40
SteveAroche: I'm wondering whether getUser should require a digested password04:40
SteveAat or whether we should have an authUser(login_id, digested_password)04:40
SteveAI'm concerned about being able to get the digested password for any user just by asking for it04:41
SteveAelmo: we're discussing also having an editUser operation.04:41
SteveAelmo: what I'm wondering is what kind of security measures you'd want on this.04:41
SteveAthe xml rpc server should be accessible from just the plone server, not from the outside world04:42
rochewhat do you do if a users forgets their password if getuser requires a digested password04:42
SteveAgetUser can require no password04:42
SteveAbut wouldn't return a password either04:42
SteveAbut would return the rest of the user dict04:42
elmostevea: where's this xml-rpc server going to live? and is anything other than the plone server(s) going to be using it?04:42
SteveAelmo: same machine as launchpad app server.  nothing other than plone server(s)04:43
elmostevea: I don't see that it's necessarily got any security requirements beyond the obvious/normal ones, really04:44
SteveAelmo: okay, so you're not totally negative about it ;-)04:45
SteveAroche: how about this then:04:46
SteveA    returns user dict, or empty dict if no such login_id04:46
SteveAcreateUser(login_id, ssha_digested_password, displayname, emailaddresses)04:46
SteveA    returns user dict04:46
SteveAauthUser(login_id, ssha_digested_password)04:46
SteveA    returns user dict, or empty dict if not authenticated04:46
elmostevea: well, sure, I am but nobody takes me seriously when I rant about xml-rpc is going to claw out your eyes, and shoot random kittens :(04:46
SteveAeditUser(login_id, ssha_digested_password, displayname, emailaddresses)04:46
SteveA    returns user dict04:46
SteveAa user dict contains04:46
SteveA    password        ssha encrypted password04:46
SteveA    displayname     full name, for display04:46
SteveA    emailaddresses  list of email addresses04:46
SteveAelmo: sounds a bit extreme04:47
rochewhat's the difference between getUser and authUser?04:48
SteveAauthUser checks that the password matches the login04:48
SteveAgetUser gets you the user information04:48
SteveAeditUser works only if the password matches04:49
rocheand the password is not included in the dict returned by getUser then?04:49
SteveAoops, I left it in above04:49
SteveAI removed 'id' instead04:50
SteveAa user dict contains04:50
SteveA    id              person id (integer, doesn't change ever)04:50
SteveA    displayname     full name, for display04:50
SteveA    emailaddresses  list of email addresses04:50
rocheso what happens if a user forgets his password?04:50
SteveAwhat would normally happen?04:50
stubOne thing that may have already been discussed - do we want to add a 'name' column to the database, which can be used as a login name? I was thinking that we might want a unique, short string to display on pages to identify a person rather than the existing displayname, which is not unique (ping me later if this is off topic)04:51
SteveAstub: there have been various discussions of this on-list04:52
SteveAI proposed deferring this until the soyuz sprint04:52
rocheeither you send them an email with their password (which won't be possible here )04:52
SteveAhmm, or you need an api to set the password04:53
rocheor you generate a temporary password and mail that to them so that they can change there04:53
rochepassword themselves - this is also not possible here04:53
SteveAstub: it is a popular idea.  it really needs to pass through mark04:53
SteveAstub: mark suggested having a short nickname associated with each "thing" a person is involved in 04:54
SteveAstub: like, I'm SteveA most of the time, but there's another SteveA on sourceforge, who isn't me04:54
SteveAroche: I think we can say that we won't allow password changes via plone04:55
SteveAthere will be a way to do this in the launchpad application04:55
SteveAso, when that's done, plone can point to there04:55
rocheok, that's fine04:56
SteveAI'm inclined to say the same thing about changing displayname and email addresses04:56
SteveAlulu: what do you think?  Does the plone website need to offer people the ability to change email addresses and displaynames?04:56
SteveAI think it would be simpler making people go to the launchpad app for all changes04:57
SteveAbut to still allow people to sign up for the first time via plone04:57
luluSteveA: if Ubuntu is to be the link in to all the tools for ubuntu, i think that would be useful...04:57
SteveAthe ubuntu site will be linking to the person's dashboard on launchpad04:58
SteveAthe ubuntu site can also link to the person's "change my details" page on launchpad04:58
luluyes - but to the user, they think it's the ubuntu dashboard04:58
luluyes - makes sense to me and seamless for the user04:58
SteveAok, then that keeps the API, and roche's work, simpler04:58
SteveAand means that it is less possible to do bad things via xml-rpx04:59
SteveAso, one last time...05:00
SteveA    returns user dict if login_id exists, otherwise empty dict05:00
SteveAauthUser(login_id, ssha_digested_password)05:00
SteveA    returns user dict if authenticated, otherwise empty dict05:00
SteveAcreateUser(login_id, ssha_digested_password, displayname, emailaddresses)05:00
SteveA    returns user dict05:00
SteveAa user dict contains05:00
SteveA    id              person id (integer, doesn't change ever)05:00
SteveA    displayname     full name, for display05:00
SteveA    emailaddresses  list of email addresses05:01
SteveAspiv: can you write a Twisted XML-RPC service that offers that API to the launchpad database?05:01
SteveAhmm, I guess we don't need login_id in createUser05:01
luluone question....from a user perspective - However the backend handles registration, the user doesn't need to know. To them it should be the same thing. 05:02
SteveAwhat's the question?05:02
luludo they enter email address and password (design purposes - number of login text boxes required)05:02
luluLog into plone = basic launchpad. When we need further security, will it be a javascript login like on warthogs?05:02
luluor now will it be the same thing?05:02
SteveAthere is no javascript login05:03
luluso via the web interface - email address and password?05:03
SteveAdo you mean the box asking for username and password that your browser pops up?05:03
luluyup - but only for https05:03
SteveAthat's not javascript.  that's your browser doing basic authentication or digest authentication05:03
luluthanks for clarifying05:04
SteveAin plone, there will be a webpage with a form to log in05:04
luluhome page - little portlet05:04
SteveAin launchpad, there will initially not be this, but instead the dialog that the browser pops up.  later, we'll do cookie authentication05:04
SteveAwith a login form for launchpad05:05
luluoh - sorry - you mean register......not login for the plone site.05:05
=== SteveA waits to hear from roche and spiv
rocheAPI seems fine05:05
SteveAgreat.  I'll mail this shortly.05:05
spivSteveA: at a glance, yes, will do more than glance when workrave lets me :)05:06
luluRoche - please could you amend your quote accordingly and resend thereafter. Tx :o)05:07
rochewill do so05:07
rocheare we done?05:09
SteveAyes, thanks!05:09
luluroche: could you and James ensure all is ok with the plone products please. Tx :o)05:09
rocheI'll have a look at his mail now05:10
lulumuch obliged05:10
rochekeep well everybody, cheers.05:10
luluSteveA: thank you for finalising this :o)05:11
SteveAspiv: ping?05:45
carlosI'm confused05:47
carlosWhen I try to execute a python script I'm writing I get:05:47
carlosfrom: can't read /var/mail/zope.component.tests.placelesssetup05:47
carlosfrom: can't read /var/mail/canonical.database.sqlbase05:47
carlosfrom: can't read /var/mail/canonical.rosetta.sql05:47
carlosfrom: can't read /var/mail/sqlobject05:47
carlosfrom: can't read /var/mail/optparse05:47
carlosI'm not at /var/mail and my PYTHONPATH env var points to /home/carlos/Work/launchpad/lib/05:48
spivcarlos: You have /var/mail on your $PYT -- oh.05:48
spivWell, it looks like something is adding /var/mail to python's sys.path :)05:48
carloscarlos@frodo ~/Work/rosetta/scripts $ export PYTHONPATH=/home/carlos/Work/launchpad/lib/05:48
carloscarlos@frodo ~/Work/rosetta/scripts $ ./createuser.py --help05:48
SteveAspiv: can you write an XML-RPC server, using twisted, to the api I mailed out?05:48
spivSteveA: Yes, when do you want it by?05:49
SteveAfriday morning?05:49
SteveAis that too much of a stretch?05:49
spivOk, that should be easily achievable, I think.05:50
spivUnless other things get in the way...05:50
spivI should do a proper estimate for it, I guess :)05:50
SteveAplease do05:50
SteveAspiv: I filed a bug on it for you05:53
dafspiv: you're arriving here on Thursday?05:53
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spivdaf: I was, but I've just been informed that there's a spare ticket to a TMBG concert that evening.05:56
dafspiv: wow!05:56
spivdaf: So it now looks like I'm arriving Friday ;)05:56
dafspiv: cool, enjoy the show :)05:56
dafspiv: have you seen them live before?05:56
spivYeah, twice in Sydney.05:57
dafthey are really good live05:57
spivWhen they were touring to promote Mink Car.05:57
dafI saw them around the same time05:57
dafit was just before it was released, I think05:57
daf(in the UK, that is)05:58
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dokostevea: around?09:59
debonzispiv, are you around?10:11
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jblackspiv: Ping11:10
spivdebonzi, jblack: Hi, sorry, I really need to sleep.  Catch you guys tomorrow.11:17
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