[12:03] <alextreme> k. besides that it's looking pretty neat. just need to get me a kernel that does work with cdrecord, want the mouse to work this time
[12:04] <elmo> aha, that's why apt-ftparchive is sometimes so slow - changing the seeds changes the overrides which invalidates some of it's caching
[12:07] <elmo> mdz: I'm going to override Origin: to Ubuntu, and Bugs: to .. what?
[12:07] <mdz> elmo: mailto:some-address-get-it-from-justdave
[12:07] <elmo> ok
[12:07] <mdz> justdave: ping?
[12:34] <Kamion> fabbione: yo (but too late, I know)
[12:34] <Kamion> mdz: yo
[12:35] <mdz> Kamion: I think I was going to ask you if the current daily was any good, but I tried it and ran into the same problem jdub had (hdparm vs. SCSI/USB drive)
[12:36] <Kamion> mdz: boot with cdrom-detect/cdrom_hdparm= on the kernel command line then
[12:36] <mdz> alextreme: when do you think the updated live CD can be ready?
[12:37] <alextreme> i've got one ready now
[12:37] <alextreme> just hasn't been tested much
[12:37] <Kamion> mdz: p.s. having all man pages for a component or whatever in the one package would be SO MUCH CRACK
[12:37] <mdz> alextreme: let me at it; I'll give it some testing love
[12:37] <mdz> Kamion: :-)
[12:37] <jdub_> live cd testing!
[12:37] <alextreme> :)
[12:37] <jdub_> YEAH!
[12:37] <jdub> LATHER UP!
[12:37] <alextreme> okay, i'll do one final test and start uploading... which will take all night :)
[12:38] <mdz> TEARS
[12:38] <Kamion> you should so get in the habit of building in the LAN and rsyncing down for testing
[12:38] <Kamion> I started doing that right after the pain of uploading Sounder CD 1 from here
[12:39] <Kamion> that was about when I commandeered little for CD building :)
[12:40] <alextreme> yeah, i just need root (chroot) access for my autobuilder :)
[12:40] <elmo> you don't need root, we have dchroot
[12:41] <mdz> dude, he needs to run debootstrap
[12:41] <Uclintu> does warty have input methods outside of libgtk2.0-0 ?
[12:41] <elmo> oh, I thought he meant root to get in the chroot
[12:41] <elmo> that's so not cool then :P
[12:41] <mdz> Uclintu: yes
[12:42] <mdz> Uclintu: uim, xim, etc.
[12:42] <alextreme> well, i wouldn't mind building in a chroot... :)
[12:42] <Uclintu> mdz: those appear to be in universe
[12:42] <mdz> hmm
[12:42] <elmo> alextreme: root in a chroot is root.. that's not a possiblity I'm afraid, not on little
[12:42] <mdz> mako: ping?
[12:43] <jdub> Uclintu: that's something we're looking at sorting out properly for Hoary
[12:43] <alextreme> elmo: yeah, that's what i guessed :)
[12:43] <mdz> mako: I thought we added the input method stuff to desktop, but apparently not, do you remember what happened?
[12:43] <mdz> er, supported
[12:43] <mdz> elmo: the automated job is going to need root regardless
[12:44] <Uclintu> jdub: fair enough
[12:44] <elmo> mdz: gar - we're only doing this crack for one arch right?
[12:44] <mdz> elmo: for warty :-)
[12:44] <mdz> jdub: is that what happened?  we decided to punt for warty?
[12:45] <elmo> -ECRACKWHORESANONYMOUS
[12:45] <jdub> dunno if it works already, but we're going to want install/live CDs for all arches :)
[12:45] <jdub> mdz: pretty much, being beyond freeze and knowing it'll be a lot of work
[12:45] <elmo> I think we need a bounty to de-root the stupid thing
[12:45] <mdz> jdub: I thought we had decided to add the couple of packages to supported so that people who already knew about them could get them easily
[12:46] <alextreme> elmo: thats going to be an interesting bounty, and not one i'm willing to take up :)
[12:46] <Kamion> elmo: fakechroot?
[12:47] <Kamion> I thought elmo and lamont and I talked about this at the conference
[12:47] <jdub> this lappy is so quiet :)
[12:47] <elmo> kamion: don't think it was me
[12:47] <Kamion> Package: fakechroot
[12:47] <Kamion> Description: Gives a fake chroot environment
[12:47] <Kamion>  This package provides a library which overrides libc functions, so
[12:47] <Kamion>  it is possible to use root-specific tools without root priviliges.
[12:47] <Kamion>  .
[12:47] <Kamion>  In fake chroot you can install i.e. Debian boostrap, create developer's
[12:47] <Kamion>  environment and build packages inside chroot'ed system using standard
[12:47] <Kamion>  non-root user account.
[12:48] <elmo> oh, maybe we did, I think my concern was that the guy seemed to have forked debootstrap to make it work with it
[12:48] <Kamion> elmo: yes, only one arch, there's not going to be time to get amd64 and powerpc working AFAIK
[12:48] <Kamion> jdub: we decided WAY back only to do i386 for warty
[12:49] <jdub> Kamion: yeah, but in-future-ideally
[12:49] <Kamion> sure, yeah
[12:49] <Kamion> I doubt amd64 is hard, powerpc might be interesting
[12:49] <Kamion> (but, hey, largely the sort of thing I do ...)
[12:49] <mdz> UML is probably the way to do it
[12:49] <Kamion> why not fakechroot? it exists, it's simple, it (allegedly) works
[12:50] <mdz> then we can (allegedly) use it
[12:50] <alextreme> i'll give it a spin, see if it works here
[12:50] <mdz> does fakechroot let you mount()?
[12:50] <mdz> doesn't debootstrap mount /proc etc.?
[12:51] <Kamion> ah, well, yes, fakechroot does talk about doing 'debootstrap --fakechroot', hmm
[12:51] <mdz> UML opens the possibility of actually booting and testing the thing
[12:51] <Uclintu> mdz: he was talking about ignoring mount/umount and /proc issues back in apr 2003
[12:52] <Kamion>  setup_proc () {
[12:52] <Kamion> -  on_exit "umount $TARGET/proc"
[12:52] <Kamion> -  umount $TARGET/proc 2>/dev/null || true
[12:52] <Kamion> -  in_target mount -t proc proc /proc
[12:52] <Kamion> +#  on_exit "umount $TARGET/proc"
[12:52] <Kamion> +#  umount $TARGET/proc 2>/dev/null || true
[12:52] <Kamion> +#  in_target mount -t proc proc /proc
[12:52] <Kamion> +   for i in cmdline cpuinfo devices filesystems loadavg meminfo misc modules pa
[12:52] <Kamion> rtitions stat swaps uptime version; do
[12:52] <Kamion> +       cat /proc/$i > $TARGET/proc/$i
[12:52] <Kamion> +   done
[12:52] <Kamion> +   mkdir $TARGET/proc/1
[12:52] <Kamion>  }
[12:52] <Kamion> hm, ok
[12:52] <Kamion> that's a bit gross
[12:53] <Kamion> mdz: and it closes the possibility of having a single build strategy on multiple architectures
[12:53] <mdz> eewwww
[12:53] <Kamion> mdz: unless somebody actually finishes porting it to powerpc
[12:53] <mdz> Kamion: it gives us 2 out of 3 architectures
[12:54] <Kamion> 2 out of (3+however-many-derived-distributions-want-to-do)
[12:54] <mdz> s/distributions/architectures/
[12:54] <Kamion> I did mean "derived distributions", not "derived architectures" :-)
[12:55] <mdz> then I don't understand how you arrived at that expression
[12:55] <Kamion> however many [architectures]  derived distributions want to do
[12:56] <Uclintu> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2003/04/msg00747.html
[12:56] <mdz> ah
[12:57] <mdz> elmo: do you need #270906 for the bug stuff?
[12:58] <Kamion> I wonder how many bits of what debootstrap does actually require real root
[12:59] <Kamion> I could imagine having those allowed by extremely limited sudo or a userv service or something
[12:59] <mdz> probably not much beyond chroot/setuid/permissions type stuff
[12:59] <Kamion> ability to untar archive containing device nodes, hm, that's probably about it ...
[01:00] <Kamion> the last is a bit hard to limit though, although the tarball in question is in /usr/lib/debootstrap/ so you could assume it to be safe
[01:01] <Kamion> chroot <arbitrary command> is obviously too much though
[01:01] <elmo> mdz: no, I can script around it trivially enough, it'd just be nice to some day not to have to
[01:02] <elmo> (thus wishlist)
[01:02] <mdz> shouldn't be too hard to implement
[01:02] <mdz> someday
[01:02] <alextreme> UML :)
[01:03] <Kamion> how about if the debootstrap-running script were separate and trusted? I thought it was going to run on the buildd anyway
[01:03] <elmo> kamion: yes, it'll have to be
[01:03] <Kamion> well, it's wrong to have it on little for reasons other than security anyway
[01:03] <elmo> it's certainly going on the buildd rather than say little, but that doesn't mean I'm happy with it having root
[01:04] <Kamion> sure :-/
[01:04] <elmo> err..
[01:04] <elmo> are these Xserves UP or are we running a UP kernel?
[01:04] <Kamion> IIRC they're SMP but we're running a UP kernel
[01:04] <Kamion> because getting the UP kernel up was hard enough without trying to deal with SMP too
[01:04] <elmo> cool
[01:04] <mdz> so out of our 3 architectures, only 1 actually works SMP
[01:05] <Kamion> I think thom said he'd try to take one down (ross?) and see if the SMP kernel Just Worked
[01:05] <Kamion> but dunno if that happened
[01:06] <justdave> mdz / elmo: pong
[01:06] <Uclintu> speaking of kernels working...
[01:06] <Uclintu> want any other info for #496?
[01:06] <justdave> that an address for bug reports you're looking for?
[01:06] <elmo> justdave: yeah
[01:06] <Kamion> Uclintu: that bug's way over my head, I'm afraid, dunno about anyone else
[01:06] <Kamion> unfortunately it's the sort of thing where sitting at the console and screwing around is about my only chance ...
[01:07] <justdave> we don't have one yet.  I don't think we can do inbound email on macquarie, so we probably need to create one somewhere.
[01:07] <mdz> justdave: we need it very soon
[01:07] <Uclintu> Kamion: let me know when you're dropping by
[01:07] <Kamion> Uclintu: might be worth hacking the initrd script to run with sh -x, if that's feasible
[01:07] <Kamion> then we could at least see WTF's going on
[01:07] <justdave> got a way to forward the mail to macquarie from whatever machine gets it, or want macquarie polling for it?
[01:07] <Uclintu> which initrd script?
[01:07] <Kamion> /sbin/init in the initrd
[01:07] <elmo> justdave: ideally macquarie would poll
[01:08] <Kamion> I'm assuming it's a shell script
[01:08] <Uclintu> Kamion: yeah; #!/bin2/sh
[01:08] <elmo> I can set something up on ubuntu.com, if needs be, just tell me what
[01:09] <justdave> probably want something like submit@bugzilla.no-name-yet.com
[01:10] <Kamion> does the second arg you pass to pivot_root have to exist before you call it?
[01:10] <Kamion> pivot_root . initrd
[01:10] <Kamion> Uclintu: does your root filesystem have an /initrd directory?
[01:11] <Uclintu> Uclintu: yup, empty
[01:11] <justdave> give me a pop3 mailbox I can get at from macquarie or something
[01:11] <Kamion> Uclintu: hm, in that case it suggests to me that it's mounting the wrong root filesystem somehow
[01:11] <Kamion> Uclintu: oh, what's the $Id$ at the top of /sbin/init in your initrd?
[01:12] <Kamion> # $Id: init,v 1.56 2004/05/18 10:48:15 herbert Exp $
[01:12] <Uclintu> yes, that's the one
[01:12] <elmo> justdave: okay, adding that to my todo list
[01:12] <Kamion> I think I'd check the value of root=
[01:13] <Uclintu> in yaboot.conf?
[01:13] <Kamion> /dev/hda7, I see
[01:13] <Uclintu> yup
[01:14] <Kamion> sh -x should tell you what it's actually trying to mount, anyway
[01:14] <Uclintu> okay, i'll replace the initrd and reboot
[01:15] <justdave> that Bugs: header is in the .deb file for packages?
[01:17] <Kamion> justdave: it's in the Packages index file
[01:17] <Kamion> justdave: it may or may not be in the .deb; in this case I think it typically won't be, it'll be overridden in the archive maintenance scripts
[01:17] <justdave> ok.
[01:18] <justdave> probably won't help me anyway because they mostly point at bugs.debian.org probably. :)
[01:18] <Kamion> submit@bugzilla.ubuntu.com rather than bugzilla.no-name-yet.com perhaps?
[01:18] <justdave> I was looking for an easy way to find out who the upstream is for a given package
[01:18] <Kamion> dunno what the rules for that are right now, but we need something we can wire into packages
[01:18] <Kamion> /usr/share/doc/<foo>/copyright
[01:18] <Kamion> there's no machine-parseable way to get that information
[01:19] <justdave> do we have ubuntu.com now?  I thought we weren't supposed to use it yet
[01:19] <Kamion> we're not supposed to use it for web content ... elmo, is mail there ok?
[01:20] <elmo> kamion: I think so, yeah
[01:21] <elmo> [if it's not, not hard to change the overrides..] 
[01:21] <thom> yeah, i was gonna try the SMP kernels when we didn't need all the buildds for a while :-)
[01:21] <thom> TMBG were frickin' excellent live
[01:22] <elmo> GAR, need new chair!
[01:23] <thom> edd: come to london, we can do malaysian again :-)
[01:23] <edd> thom: i should do. i was just down there at the weekend.
[01:24] <alextreme> mdz: k, it's still a little rough (duh) and uses 2.6.7. had to revert to the old kernel, 2.6.8.1 was giving overlaying problems
[01:25] <alextreme> but it's uploading, so i don't want to think about it anymore :)
[01:25] <jdub> yaaaay
[01:25] <Uclintu> yup
[01:25] <Uclintu> isn't mounting real root
[01:26] <alextreme> time to watch some mindless furutama and purge the livecd wackyness from my brain
[01:26] <alextreme> gnight
[01:28] <Uclintu> Why am I plagued with the idea that hda may have transformed into hdc?
[01:29] <mako> mdz: input method stuff shoudldn't go in desktop yet
[01:29] <mako> mdz: there are just too many of them and each one writes interfaces to all the others
[01:30] <mako> mdz: supported, yes
[01:30] <mako> mdz: scim, uim, and m17n are the ones i like
[01:32] <mako> mdz: i'd *really* prefer to have users who are inputting text though tell us what they're using though.. i just don't have a sense for what is actually being used or even useful and it's hard for me to test
[01:33] <jdub> there's some freedesktop unification work going on atm
[01:33] <jdub> not sure if that'll be hoaryable, but it would be nice
[01:33] <Uclintu> I use uim these days, but I'm not totally pleased with it.
[01:34] <mako> jdub: well scim and uim are both in freedesktop now
[01:35] <mako> jdub: i THINL everything is going toward scim at the top 
[01:35] <mjg59> Urgh. Input managers.
[01:36] <mjg59> It would be nice if X had some method for inserting arbitrary UTF-8 characters
[01:36] <mjg59> It'd remove a lot of the pain
[01:37] <mako> there's plenty of pain left
[01:37] <Uclintu> it's way better than it used to be
[01:37] <mako> oh sure, absolutely
[01:37] <Uclintu> back when you had to use particular locales for each IM
[01:37] <Oskuro> mako!
[01:37] <mako> Oskuro: DUDE!
[01:38] <Oskuro> mako: so where's the OLIVE STUFF!
[01:38] <Keybuk> doesn't GTK+ have all of its own IM stuff as well?
[01:38] <mako> Oskuro: http://mako.yukidoke.org/copyrighteous/
[01:38] <mako> Oskuro: i just put it up like 2 minutes ago
[01:38] <Oskuro> mako: oh so it's there?
[01:38] <Oskuro> oh, lol
[01:39] <Oskuro> I looked at planet
[01:39] <Oskuro> Kamion: I wonder if there's some kind of ubuntu d-i big tarball where I can look for the ca.po's.
[01:41] <Oskuro> "The went into more detail"
[01:41] <Oskuro> typo there
[01:43] <Oskuro> gotta go to bed.
[01:47] <Uclintu> well, that would explain it
[01:49] <mako> Keybuk: gtk has some stuff im stuff, but not very advanced stuff
[01:52] <Kamion> Uclintu: hda/hdc have been known to swap due to ATA-100, but I thought that problem was gone
[01:52] <Kamion> Oskuro: no, not yet
[01:52] <Uclintu> Kamion: the real problem is that it's only finding my second IDE controller
[01:52] <Kamion> Oskuro: you could probably walk /dists/warty/main/debian-installer/binary-*/Packages.gz reasonably automatically ...
[01:52] <Kamion> Uclintu: oho
[01:52] <Uclintu> i'm going to force a "modprobe -k cmd64x" in loadmodules and see if that helps any
[01:52] <Kamion> Uclintu: is there something unusual about the first one?
[01:53] <Uclintu> it's a cmd646
[01:53] <Kamion> wow, elderly
[01:53] <Kamion> does the installer work on that?
[01:53] <mdz> daniels: ping
[01:53] <Uclintu> I don't remember if I've ever tried an install.
[01:53] <Kamion> you don't actually have to overwrite anything on the disk, just boot the CD, run through the UI up to the start of partitioning, and see if it displays all your disks
[01:54] <Kamion> jdub: huh, preview release is Wednesday, not Monday?
[01:54] <Uclintu> i've only got sounder 4 burned; that relevant?
[01:54] <mdz> Kamion: yes, always has been
[01:54] <Kamion> mdz: somebody needs to update http://wiki.no-name-yet.com/WartyWarthog not to lie, then
[01:54] <mdz> Uclintu: no, it really isn't. please do try a sounder 8 though
[01:54] <Kamion> Uclintu: well, that's only 2.6.7, but it would be a useful data point
[01:55] <mdz> Kamion: that indicates the week in which it is scheduled
[01:55] <mdz> it is admittedly misleading
[01:55] <Uclintu> okay, first my loadmodules hack
[01:55] <Kamion> mdz: it's so not helpful :)
[01:55] <mdz> Kamion: feel free :-)
[01:55] <Kamion> and gold release is Oct 15th?
[01:55] <mdz> correct
[01:56] <Kamion> updated
[01:57] <Kamion> "anal-retentive, high-caution period"
[01:58] <jdub> um, the date has always been correct though
[01:58] <Kamion> I guess this week has been relatively cautious compared to last week
[01:58] <debianist> what's the official release date?
[01:58] <jdub> debianist: preview on the 15th
[01:58] <Kamion> jdub: the WartyWarthog page did not have those dates anywhere on it that I could see
[01:58] <debianist> of october?
[01:59] <jdub> september
[01:59] <Kamion> jdub: only the date of the preceding Monday
[01:59] <jdub> final in october
[01:59] <debianist> jdub : and security review is due by the 15th or the final in october?
[01:59] <Oskuro> Kamion: yeah, that's enough, thanks
[01:59] <Oskuro> night all
[02:00] <jdub> debianist: it's just a running process
[02:01] <debianist> night
[02:02] <Uclintu> so, forcing "modprobe -k cmd64x" into loadmodules, then booting with "Linux root=/dev/hdc7" got me here, after several screenfuls of ieee1394 spew and a lack of the ethernet driver being loaded
[02:03] <Uclintu> should I record this in the same bug, a different bug, or unspecified action?
[02:03] <jdub> Kamion: (also informed by the date of the gnome release, which, should it slip, is the date of our release)
[02:03] <mdz> debianist: the initial review needs to be done by preview, yes
[02:03] <mdz> jdub: how is that looking, by the way?  will gnome make it?
[02:04] <jdub> yes
[02:04] <Kamion> Uclintu: same bug I think
[02:04] <jdub> unless something completely bizarre happens, it's looking fine
[02:04] <mdz> jdub: wanted to run a couple of menu ideas by you
[02:05] <debianist> mdz : noted. guess not much sleep for the coming week :)
[02:05] <mdz> jdub: what do you think about removing ggv from the menu?  it's not particularly useful to run by itself, even if the user does have postscript files to work with
[02:06] <Kamion> I don't think any of us will be getting much sleep between now and preview :P
[02:06] <mdz> assuming there is a way to hide it from the menu and still let the mime association stuff work
[02:06] <Kamion> I warned my gf today that I'd probably be going into hiding
[02:07] <jdub> mdz: there are a number of file handling apps like that, i don't think we should remove them from the menu at this stage of the release (!!!) because there's no other way for users to find/run it beyond having files already
[02:07] <mdz> jdub: that's just the point: running ggv is damn near useless
[02:08] <jdub> mdz: the menu is currently like /Applications; it's not a convenience, it's everything
[02:08] <jdub> mdz: i don't think it's appropriate to make what are essentially UI policy changes like that at this end of the release process
[02:09] <mdz> I had a feeling you'd say something like that
[02:09] <jdub> mdz: that said, it is definitely possible to do it without affecting the mime system (you just pull the categories line out)
[02:09] <jdub> well come on
[02:09] <jdub> we're already fucking around with all kinds of other things
[02:10] <jdub> i don't like making UI changes without useful design/thought/testing
[02:10] <jdub> we're hardly finding / dealing with the side-effects of the other things we're changing
[02:11] <jdub> and totally abusing the release process as we go
[02:14] <lifeless> release process? wassat?
[02:14] <mdz> jdub: we're not talking about software engineering here; this is totally harmless stability-wise, and I asked for your opinion.  there is no need to be hostile about it
[02:15] <mdz> it's hardly any different than deciding to kick something out of desktop into supported, which we just did, with your emphatic agreement, a couple of days ago
[02:15] <mdz> and that's the next best thing
[02:17] <Uclintu> that did not go well
[02:17] <mdz> Uclintu: cd test?
[02:18] <Uclintu> yeah, it loaded ide-scsi before cmd64x, then spent an inordinate of time playing with sd_mod before I lost all patience
[02:20] <mdz> ew, ide-scsi
[02:20] <mdz> whose fault is that?
[02:22] <jdub> mdz: not hostile
[02:22] <Kamion> discover (0.9.10) unstable; urgency=low
[02:22] <Kamion>   * Hard-coded a special case: add ide-scsi as a SCSI driver if IDE CD-ROM
[02:22] <Kamion>     drives are present.  This way, all CD-ROMS will be treated as SCSI,
[02:22] <Kamion>     and burners will work out of the box.
[02:23] <Kamion> I'm guessing
[02:23] <mdz> Kamion: does d-i rely on that?
[02:23] <Kamion> I'd be surprised
[02:23] <Kamion> although who knows :-)
[02:23] <mdz> if not, we should revert that
[02:23] <Hrdwr_BoB> Kamion, but last time I checked, sg.o wasn't loaded, so it didn't work ANYWAY
[02:23] <jdub> mdz: stability is also a UI issue, not just a code issue
[02:24] <Kamion> Hrdwr_BoB: quite, but that's a separate bug which I've already replied to
[02:24] <mdz> Hrdwr_BoB: ide-scsi is neither necessary, nor a good idea, for writing CDs anyway
[02:24] <Hrdwr_BoB> yeah, agreed
[02:24] <jdub> i had to load sg manually too
[02:24] <Kamion> Uclintu: could you file a bug about the ide-scsi thing? I'll fix it tomorrow
[02:25] <Kamion> jdub: hence #1037
[02:26] <Kamion> anyway, I so have to go; night all
[02:26] <Uclintu> Kamion: #1128
[02:26] <jdub> so, replacing dsdt crack - is that fixable in a general way?
[02:26] <Kamion> Uclintu: thanks
[02:26] <lifeless> jdub: dsdt's are machine specific
[02:27] <mdz> I've just given up on CD writing
[02:27] <mdz> I just write DVDs with growisofs
[02:27] <mdz> which does not require ide-scsi madness *or* scsi generic madness
[02:27] <lifeless> AIUI you need someone that knows the acpi assembly to review the dsdst, fix it, and then it can get loaded into your kernel as a fix.
[02:28] <lifeless> I don't know if there is a database-looked step (machine x, oh it needs *that* override) or not.
[02:28] <lifeless> I have two laptops here that badly need dsdst loving though :|
[02:33] <jamesh> is it something that a bios upgrade could fix?
[02:42] <jdub> acpi.sf.net has a collection of dsdts for specific machines + bioses
[02:42] <jdub> there's one there for my machine/bios combination
[02:42] <jdub> but it requires patching the kernel
[02:42] <jdub> which doesn't seem particularly generalisable
[02:43] <jdub> (the way it's patched, the the requirement for patching)
[02:46] <Keybuk> I thought the load custom dsdt stuff was quite generic?
[02:46] <Keybuk> you just compile it into your kernel
[02:46] <jdub> by excluding the existing foo
[02:46] <jdub> (it seems)
[03:04] <daniels> mdz: pingmdz	pong
[03:04] <daniels> um, yeah
[03:05] <daniels> that
[03:49] <mdz> daniels: going to take care of #1056 today?
[03:51] <daniels> jdub: could you please subscribe lsd@linuxgamers.net to sounder? he tried to subscribe a while ago but never heard anything
[03:51] <daniels> mdz: yes, hopefully
[03:51] <daniels> mdz: i have a dist-upgrade configuring shit now, and maybe tetex will work after this one
[04:44] <cef_work> hrm, I just thought of something after noticing the xchat stuff. we're going to end up with people in here asking general questions. We're probably going to need another channel for devel stuff, and also we might want an infobot (like dpkg & apt on #debian) for the common questions and answers
[04:55] <dieman> heh
[04:56] <dieman> i could never learn dvorak unless i actually had a dvorak keybaord
[04:56] <dieman> but they dont make a microsoft natural elite in dvorak :)
[04:56] <dieman> i keep on wanting to get a frogpad
[04:56] <dieman> tho
[05:04] <jdub> 44
[05:14] <dieman> now i remember why i hate dvorak
[05:14] <dieman> i have to fuck with vi to get my vi keys back :)
[05:22] <kagou> hi
[05:23] <Riff> man, I'm not geeky enough
[05:23] <Riff> I thought you meant the composer
[05:24] <kagou> jdub, have you seen my request ?
[05:24] <jdub> kagou: hrm, no?
[05:24] <kagou> i had written a too big mail to the list, waiting for your approbation
[05:25] <jdub> aha
[05:25] <kagou> :p
[05:25] <kagou> ""Release8 reportinstallation" is the subject
[05:26] <jdub> done
[05:26] <kagou> thanks jdub :) 
[05:28] <kagou> ^^
[05:30] <spiv> jdub: If only you could have made the toilet seat faster, you'd have the best of both worlds... a hoverseat! ;)
[05:30] <Riff> jdub: did you patch your DSDT ?
[05:31] <jdub> Riff: stopped given business and inability to compile iasl
[05:31] <jdub> might ask steven if he already did his
[05:31] <Riff> utuntu :: now with Dell support!
[05:32] <jdub> i don't think the dsdt hacking stuff is very generalisable though
[05:33] <Riff> it all gets merged upstream eventually
[05:34] <Riff> the linux ACPI code is full of workarounds for specific machines and fuck knows what else
[05:34] <Riff> this is apparently why the BSD guys refuse to support ACPI
[05:34] <jamesh> Riff: what will they do when there are no more machines their OS will run on?
[05:35] <Riff> jamesh: I have no idea
[05:35] <Riff> maybe they blissfully believe IBM will have APM forever
[05:35] <Riff> I mean, this laptop doesn't have APM
[05:36] <jamesh> if you have working APM, is there any benefit in trying to get ACPI working?
[05:36] <Riff> jamesh: not unless you're trying to do fucked up things I guess
[05:36] <Riff> ACPI is infinitely configurable
[05:37] <Riff> it's a much better design from the OS<->Hardware layer
[05:37] <Riff> if only people didn't make mistakes in implementing it
[05:37] <Riff> APM is all hardware, so your OS has to do a lot of work to cope with it
[05:37] <Riff> there are also lots of magic weird BIOS routines to get APM to do things
[05:37] <Riff> ACPI doesn't have that
[05:38] <Riff> ACPI tells you a button was pressed, you do all the work yourself to prepare for suspend state
[05:38] <Riff> then you tell ACPI to suspend
[05:38] <jdub> "The world's biggest ice-cream maker plans to genetically modify ice blocks in an attempt slow down the melt rate."
[05:38] <Riff> what exactly are they genetically modifing?
[05:39] <Riff> because that one sounds a little scary
[05:39] <jdub> http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/09/09/1094530771695.html
[05:43] <jamesh> I'm sure everyone would support GM if it could keep their beer colder longer
[05:43] <Riff> jamesh: you're a genius
[05:49] <daniels> BRILLIANT!
[05:54] <kagou> jdub, i don't see the mail in sound list :/ It takes long time to be approved ?
[05:58] <jdub> should be coming through
[06:07] <kagou> it's ok
[06:22] <jdub> interesting
[06:23] <jdub> my ipw2200 can't associate unless the ssid is published
[06:25] <lamont> kamion about?
[06:25] <Keybuk> Kamion: at 5:25am?  You've got to be kidding
[06:27] <lamont> everyone is so timezone rotated these days, you see.
[06:27] <Keybuk> that pretty much guarantees most UKers won't be
[06:34] <lamont> heh
[06:34] <lamont> jdub: even when you set the SSID??
[06:34] <jdub> yeah
[06:34] <jdub> it's bong
[06:34] <jdub> if the ssid is not published
[06:35] <jdub> and you set the ssid, ap, channel, everything
[06:35] <jdub> it doesn't work
[06:35] <jdub> as soon as you publish it, whammo
[06:38] <jdub> PITA
[06:39] <fabbione> morning
[06:44] <fabbione> mdz: argh!
[06:44] <fabbione> mdz: why did you upload linux-restricted?
[06:45] <fabbione> i had to add the nvidia drivers & co that require a new orig.tar.gz
[07:02] <Keybuk> that's interesting
[07:02] <Keybuk> if you set __getattr__ in a class, it doesn't actually work
[07:02] <Keybuk> instance, that is
[07:05] <kagou> bye
[07:07] <jamesh> Keybuk: well, the tp_getattr slot is a per-class thing
[07:08] <jamesh> and they cache the actual function in effect for user defined classes
[07:37] <lamont> mdz?
[07:37] <fabbione> i guess i will have to rollout a new orig.tar.gz
[07:37] <fabbione> the package was already accepted
[07:38] <fabbione> linux-restricted-modules-2.6.8.1 (2.6.8.1-2) -> linux-restricted-modules-2.6.8.1 (2.6.8.1.0-1)
[07:38] <fabbione> lamont: does it make sence to you?
[07:39] <lamont> fabbione: no, but then, I'm asleep
[07:40] <fabbione> eheh ok.. good night :-)
[07:49] <lamont> fabbione: soon.
[08:10] <fabbione> the nvidia driver maintainer is on full crack!
[08:16] <pitti> Good morning everybody!
[08:18] <fabbione> hey pitti
[08:23] <Keybuk> aha!
[08:23] <Keybuk> write() -> pipe -> cat -> pipe -> read()
[08:23] <Keybuk> you cannae doooo that cap'n
[08:39] <lamont> Keybuk: can too..
[08:39] <lamont> you just have to be very, very careful...
[08:40] <lamont> because it's bad to have both sides waiting on a full pipe...
[08:41] <lifeless> lamont: deadlocks are fun!
[08:41] <Keybuk> o/~ when two pipes go to war
[08:41] <Keybuk> o/~ your process just don't run anymore
[08:41] <lifeless> oh gawd.
[08:42] <lifeless> I'm off to tong's birthday party. catch ya.
[08:49] <lamont> Keybuk: and you must be "this tall" to use signals./
[08:50] <lamont> it's doable, but very non-trivial, and not for the weak of heart...\
[08:50] <lamont> anyway, finally off to bed.
[09:05] <fabbione> this is gonna be more complicated than expected
[09:17] <Keybuk> >>> util.shell.run(("time", "ls"), stderr=sys.stdout)
[09:17] <Keybuk> 0.00user 0.00system 0:00.00elapsed 80PU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
[09:17] <Keybuk> 0inputs+0outputs (0major+241minor)pagefaults 0swaps
[09:17] <Keybuk> *ahh*
[09:18] <Keybuk> *useful* Python process handling at last
[09:38] <Mithrandir> evolution should have an "Academic" mode.
[09:39] <Mithrandir> where the default start point is 15 minutes past
[09:39] <Keybuk> heh
[09:40] <Mithrandir> I'm serious, most of the stuff I put into the calendar is meetings with professors and such, and I have to change the details of them every single time
[09:43] <jamesh> I've now got network volumes showing in "Network" rather than "Computer".
[09:54] <fabbione> a lot of new icons!
[09:54] <fabbione> rad!
[09:59] <HcE> X?
[09:59] <Mithrandir> it takes me almost 1:30 to upload 50MB.
[10:00] <HcE> Mithrandir: you are on Gls right?
[10:00] <Mithrandir> yes
[10:00] <Mithrandir> Fiol
[10:01] <Mithrandir> but I'm off for meetings until 1400 in two minutes or so
[10:02] <Mithrandir> HcE: why?
[10:02] <HcE> Mithrandir: you were complaining of slow uplink, so I thought you might be in Brazil again;)
[10:02] <Mithrandir> HcE: heh, we didn't have _anything_ like that in .br
[10:04] <Mithrandir> I was complaining about chinstrap's uplink, though, not our. :P
[10:07] <Keybuk> if it took you that long, someone's probably stuck an anchor though the Norway cable again
[10:07] <Keybuk> chinstrap has more bandwidth than that
[10:25] <fabbione> uhuh
[10:25] <fabbione> nvidia packages are coming up nice and dandy
[10:34] <seb128> morning
[10:34] <jamesh> hi seb
[10:34] <seb128> hey jamesh 
[10:34] <seb128> got your mail, read it, but not tried the patch yet :)
[10:35] <seb128> I need some coffee before starting on this :p
[10:35] <debianist> morning everybody
[10:35] <jamesh> they seem to work pretty well here :)
[10:35] <seb128> cool
[10:35] <seb128> hello debianist 
[10:37] <debianist> hey seb128
[10:37] <seb128> jdub: did you resend the mail ? 
[10:37] <jdub> yeah
[10:37] <seb128> grumpf
[10:37] <seb128> weird weird
[10:37] <jdub> seb128: the computer menu layout has totally changed again?
[10:38] <seb128> that's the layout that Mark gave on IRC 2 days ago
[10:39] <jdub> great
[10:39] <jdub> it almost completely renders my mail invalid anyway
[10:40] <jdub> at least the menu related bits
[10:40] <jdub> because now it's totally different again
[10:40] <seb128> I would like to get it BTW, on which email did you send it ?
[10:40] <jdub> @debian.org
[10:40] <seb128> grump
[10:40] <jdub> i'll be back later tongiht
[10:40] <jdub> and staying up
[10:40] <jdub> so i'll chat to you then
[10:40] <seb128> I receive emails on this one, I got ~30 mails on the sounder list during the night
[10:41] <Keybuk> he's probably let lifeless set it up
[10:43] <jdub> there haven't been any issues with my mail since last week's dns re-registration
[10:45] <jdub> oh, hotplugging on the docking station does work
[10:45] <jdub> rad
[10:45] <Kamion> morning
[10:45] <jdub> yo Kamion 
[10:46] <jdub> Kamion: are we supposed to be asking the keyboard map question?
[10:47] <jdub> also, the "do you want to use ppp to install" question?
[10:47] <Kamion> jdub: pre-reboot or post-reboot?
[10:47] <jdub> post-reboot\
[10:48] <Kamion> I thought the X guys nuked it, but that's outside my domain so I'm not sure
[10:48] <jdub> also, i didn't set up the network on one install, but it still attempted to update from the network
[10:48] <Kamion> jdub: ppp, yes; you have to ask it at that point so dialup guys get security updates
[10:48] <Kamion> yeah, that's fabbione's apt-setup changes, it should fail harmlessly if you don't have a network
[10:48] <jdub> which didn't suck badly, but a bunch of errors came up on the screen
[10:51] <Kinnison> Morning
[10:54] <fabbione> hey Kinnison 
[10:54] <Kamion> jdub: yeah, I noticed those too
[11:01] <debianist> morning Kamion
[11:02] <debianist> does supported has enough packages in it to be able to setup ubuntu as a development, testing system?
[11:03] <fabbione> yes
[11:04] <fabbione> at least... i am developing ubuntu with ubuntu :-)
[11:05] <debianist> fabbione : have you installed QEMU from a debian package as I recall kamion told me it's not on the repo?
[11:05] <debianist> fabbione : or a ubuntu pacakge ?
[11:08] <fabbione> i can't remember
[11:08] <fabbione> it was a hilw ago
[11:08] <fabbione> while even
[11:14] <debianist> fabbione : what's the size of your ubuntu partition that you're using as a dev plat. ?
[11:21] <fabbione> debianist: i use a lot.. but that's because I maintain X :-9
[11:21] <fabbione> debianist: if you are not planning to play with libc6 or Openoffice or X, a few hundred MB are more than enough
[11:29] <Keybuk> heh
[11:30] <Kamion> fabbione: uh, a few hundred MB isn't enough to install Ubuntu
[11:30] <fabbione> Kamion: argh... it was "platform"
[11:30] <fabbione> i read partition
[11:30] <fabbione> my /usr/src is 30GB
[11:30] <fabbione> but i am "unusual"
[11:34] <debianist> :)
[11:34] <debianist> the link to the current status on the wiki is not so obvious, maybe a toplevel link should be added?
[11:39] <fabbione> doko: ping
[11:40] <fabbione> NV_PATCH_SYSFS ?= 0
[11:40] <fabbione> a statement like that in a Makefile...
[11:40] <fabbione> what does it mean?
[11:41] <pitti> seb128: the new "Disks" and "Network" items in the Computer menu are still untranslated
[11:41] <pitti> seb128: will you do a new upload in the next time where I can give you the German translations?
[11:41] <seb128> for sure, I've added them yesterday
[11:41] <seb128> yes
[11:41] <pitti> fabbione: this is to allow udev to create the /dev/nvidia0 device automatically
[11:41] <seb128> but managing the translations for menus changes is not easy
[11:41] <seb128> we keep changing them
[11:42] <pitti> fabbione: I don't know about the current kernels/nvidia patches, but several months ago you had to mknod the device by hand
[11:42] <seb128> that's a waste of time, we should wait to freeze the layout and string before making translations
[11:42] <fabbione> pitti: no sorry.. i want to understand the "?="
[11:42] <fabbione> what does that return?
[11:42] <pitti> fabbione: ah. Assign only if not already assigned
[11:42] <fabbione> oookkk
[11:43] <pitti> seb128: agreed, I'll send you the translations after string freeze (when will that be?)
[11:43] <seb128> pitti: no idea, when Mark will be ok with the menu I guess
[11:44] <seb128> the sooner the better ...
[11:44] <pitti> seb128: but I think the translations should be okay by Wednesday
[11:44] <seb128> "should" ?
[11:44] <pitti> seb128: as soon as heise sees the announcement they will test the distri
[11:45] <seb128> yes, that's late to do changes, I agree
[11:45] <seb128> but not my decision
[11:45] <pitti> seb128: and if these guys see untranslated items, they will compoain about this
[11:45] <pitti> seb128: complain
[11:45] <seb128> I know
[11:45] <seb128> and I agree
[11:45] <pitti> seb128: okay, I assume there will be an official announcement on sounders/warthogs ML?
[11:45] <seb128> but I'm not the guy who decides of the menu layout, I'm just changing them
[11:46] <seb128> announcement about what ?
[11:47] <Kamion> fabbione: info make -> Using Variables -> Setting, btw
[11:47] <pitti> seb128: announcement about the string freeze
[11:48] <pitti> seb128: I know it's not your fault :-)
[11:48] <seb128> yes, I'll mail the list again for translations soon if we are ok with the menu
[11:49] <pitti> seb128: that would be great, same procedure as last time
[11:50] <seb128> yes
[11:57] <fabbione> Kamion: thx
[12:40] <fabbione> -rw-r--r-- root/root   5189023 2004-09-10 12:39:27 ./lib/modules/2.6.8.1-2-686/kernel/drivers/video/nvidia.ko
[12:40] <fabbione> uhuhuh
[12:40] <debianist> pitti : are we opting for automatic nvidia proprierity driver install out of the box ?
[12:41] <fabbione> debianist: they will be in restricted
[12:41] <fabbione> we can't distribute them on CD
[12:41] <debianist> fabbione : i see.
[12:41] <fabbione> iirc all the licence stuff
[12:41] <fabbione> but i am preparing the packages right now
[12:41] <debianist> fabbione : we should then provide an automagic install for them...although that might be far than trivial
[12:41] <fabbione> (see the UHUHUH above ;))
[12:42] <fabbione> debianist: what more magic than apt-get install do you need?
[12:42] <debianist> fabbione : me needs only that old fashion, good'o magic..however for the layman?
[12:42] <fabbione> uh?
[12:42] <debianist> fabbione : or apt-get install would suffice and handle all that's needed to next reboot into the driver?
[12:43] <fabbione> that can't be done
[12:43] <fabbione> X config needs to be changed
[12:44] <fabbione> and i am not going to bust working config automatically
[12:46] <Kamion> fabbione: AIUI we *are* distributing them on CD
[12:46] <Kamion> fabbione: at least, that's what I was told when I asked
[12:46] <debianist> fabbione : k
[12:48] <fabbione> JEEEEE
[12:48] <fabbione> the nvidia maintainer is on full heavy crack
[12:48] <fabbione> it has one driver and 2 libs splitted in 20 packages
[12:49] <debianist> fabbione : hmm besides, we should let them have some fun at it aren't we? ;-)
[12:50] <debianist> what's good in a linux system if everything happens by itself ? :)
[12:54] <HrdwrBoB> 2.1.1 Rights. Customer may install and use one copy of the SOFTWARE on a single computer, and except for making one back-up copy of the Software, may not otherwise copy the SOFTWARE.
[12:54] <HrdwrBoB> I daresay that says - you can't put it on the CD
[12:54] <pitti> daniels: can you say anything about #149631? the bug trail says that it's "hopefully fixed in 4.3". Hmmm.
[01:11] <elmo> Mithrandir: Rejected: Unknown distribution `unstable'. <-- amd64-libs
[01:14] <Kamion> note to self: test on right architecture before saying you can't reproduce a bug any more
[01:16] <Mithrandir> elmo: ugh. :/
[01:17] <fabbione> elmo: do you have 5 minutes?
[01:18] <fabbione> elmo: i have a few problems packaging the nvidia stuff since the debian packages are splitted all over contrib and non-free
[01:18] <fabbione> elmo: should i move all of them into restricted?
[01:18] <fabbione> it's the dependency hell....
[01:19] <elmo> fabbione: let me go have a look at the pkg
[01:19] <fabbione> ok
[01:22] <elmo> gar, that license is a freaking nightmare
[01:23] <fabbione> elmo: yes but it can be in non-free.. that's not the problem really...
[01:24] <elmo> hah, I'm glad you're so sure, the actual license doesn't even remotely give us permission
[01:24] <fabbione> elmo: it's in debian/copyright
[01:24] <fabbione> there is a mail exchange between nvidia and the debian maintainer
[01:24] <fabbione> i think that's the one you are looking for
[01:24] <elmo> which is mail to the _Debian_ maintainer and bits from the README (which isn't legally binding in anyway)
[01:26] <elmo> anyway, WRT your original question, I think the only sane thing to do is dump it all in restricted.  the stuff in contrib is contrib-material and such really doesn't belong in main, and I don't want to create yet another component
[01:28] <fabbione> elmo: ok. neither i want another component
[01:29] <fabbione> elmo: 2.1.2  Linux Exception. 
[01:29] <fabbione> this is interesting for us becuase it allows the redistribution
[01:29] <Kamion> fabbione: I asked lifeless to make base-config a fairly high priority for importing, BTW
[01:30] <fabbione> Kamion: ok
[01:30] <fabbione> Kamion: but hopefully i won't have to touch it anymore
[01:30] <Kamion> fabbione: although I want the debian-installer source package first 'cos otherwise I have to upload it every time I tweak the documentation, which will cause elmo to kill me
[01:30] <Kamion> (since it's byhand)
[01:30] <Kamion> fabbione: you wish :-)
[01:30] <elmo> it's very easy byhand nowadays, I really don't mind - it's only problematic 'cos it requires me to be around still
[01:31] <elmo> kamion: btw, please let me know when I can trash the -1- kernel images
[01:31] <Kamion> elmo: I just uploaded linux-kernel-di-* with the -2- images, so once there's been a CD built with those
[01:31] <elmo> oh, nm, I see the new amd64/i386 ones
[01:31] <elmo> ok
[01:31] <Kamion> I'll do that later today, might as well
[01:33] <Kamion> hm, I should start building an amd64 mirror
[01:33] <Kamion> I so need a faster net connection
[01:36] <fabbione> elmo: just to be 100% clear... all kernel modules will go to linux-restricted-modules, right?
[01:37] <fabbione> all + restricted of course
[01:38] <elmo> fabbione: err, I dunno?
[01:38] <elmo> my only involvement with linux-* is archive-wise
[01:39] <fabbione> ok
[02:14] <Kamion> ew, whatever I did to the Ubuntu logo for the ISOLINUX splash screen is well horrible
[02:15] <Kamion> or ppmtolss16 has arsed it up really badly, or something
[02:16] <thom> heh
[02:18] <Kamion> I think it might be getting confused by JPEG artifacts
[02:19] <Keybuk> heh, or the melting letters?
[02:19] <Mithrandir> it might be better to render it to something else than JPEG, perhaps?
[02:19] <Kamion> Mithrandir: the problem is I'm rendering *from* JPEG
[02:19] <Mithrandir> I thought we had SVG?
[02:20] <Kamion> when I get an SVG version, I'll use that
[02:20] <Mithrandir> ook
[02:20] <Kamion> but I haven't seen it yet ...
[02:20] <Mithrandir> I thought we already had.
[02:20] <Kamion> it's not on the Logos page anyway
[02:21] <Keybuk> knowing ImageNation they're puzzling over what SVG is right now
[02:21] <Keybuk> and trying to find some JPEG-to-SVG converter
[02:21] <Kamion> don't tempt fate
[02:21] <Mithrandir> heh
[02:21] <Mithrandir> somebody could just potrace it or something.
[02:21] <Keybuk> mmm... potrace
[02:21] <Kamion> oh, bugger off, annoying buzzy fly
[02:21] <Kamion> *ahem*
[02:21] <Kamion> ah, phew, there it goes
[02:22] <Keybuk> potrace is our friend
[02:22] <Keybuk> even if elmo won't approve the maintainer <g>
[02:22] <Mithrandir> heh
[02:22] <Kamion> that's so evil, I might just have to use it
[02:22] <Mithrandir> I've had good results with it before.
[02:22] <Mithrandir> might take a bit of tuning, though
[02:23] <elmo> hmm, I'm fairly sure Bartoz is in the just-needs-an-account-creating stage, actually
[02:23] <Mithrandir> 199M    openoffice.org-amd64_1.1.2-2ubuntu4.tar.gz
[02:23] <Kamion> "The input image should only use the two colors black and white." hmm
[02:23] <Kamion> was kind of hoping for colour
[02:23] <Mithrandir> Kamion: flatten it first, then?
[02:23] <Mithrandir> and then recolor it using inkscape or something
[02:23] <Mithrandir> yes, it sucks
[02:25] <elmo> Mithrandir: you're kidding?
[02:25] <Mithrandir> elmo: the .tar.gz?
[02:25] <elmo> why so big?
[02:25] <Mithrandir> elmo: it's OOO done ia32-libs-style.
[02:25] <elmo> brrr
[02:26] <Kamion> oh, and why does something with a dash in its version have a .tar.gz?
[02:26] <Mithrandir> I agree
[02:26] <Mithrandir> Kamion: because it's the amd64 version of that exact i386 version.
[02:26] <Kamion> yes, but, but
[02:26] <Mithrandir> suggestions welcome. :)
[02:26] <Kamion> I'd be inclined to s/-/./
[02:26] <Mithrandir> makes the version number ambigious
[02:26] <Keybuk> it's not exactly policy that they can't
[02:27] <Mithrandir> I could do .orig.tar.gz and then put the debian/ directory in the diff, though
[02:27] <Kamion> Mithrandir: that would be kinder to mirrors
[02:27] <Keybuk> it's worse than some abortions I've seen
[02:27] <Mithrandir> Kamion: not really, the whole thing has to be rebuilt if the OOO-for-i386 changes.
[02:27] <Keybuk> such as an empty .orig.tar.gz (all the files get added in the diff)
[02:27] <Keybuk> or an empty .diff.gz
[02:27] <Keybuk> uh, better than, I mean
[02:27] <Kamion> Keybuk: I think it is against policy, but you have to read it carefully
[02:28] <elmo> Mithrandir: yes but if you make a typo in debian/* we don't have to suffer another 200Mb tar.gz upload
[02:28] <Mithrandir> elmo: that's true.
[02:28] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: yes, I'm sure elmo would be _extremely_ happy to have OOO sources + binaries uuencoded and then uudecoded in the rules file
[02:28] <Kamion> mmm, comprehensible diffs
[02:29] <elmo> Mithrandir: don't worry, I'm sure some people would see that as less obfuscated than dpatch ;-)
[02:29] <Kamion> you could run them through gpg with a private key shipped in the source package and ASCII-armour
[02:29] <Mithrandir> Kamion: don't give anybody any ideas.
[02:29] <Mithrandir> elmo: I could do that, if you want, sure. though.. the version then would be openoffice.org-amd64_1.1.12-2ubuntu4-1, a bit ugly, but certainly workable.
[02:29] <Kamion> or steghide
[02:30] <Kamion> "we hid our source package in a one-gigabyte .au file in case you found out how ugly it was"
[02:30] <Mithrandir> cue joeyh's 1-mb-random-data ITP?
[02:31] <Keybuk> nah
[02:31] <Kamion> 1-mb-different-random-data
[02:31] <Mithrandir> heh
[02:31] <daniels> pitti: umm ... try it and see? :)
[02:31] <Keybuk> the tarball is empty and the diff adds a uuencoded filesystem image which has to be decoded and loop mounted to get the source
[02:31] <Mithrandir> elmo: would openoffice.org-amd64_1.1.12-2ubuntu4-1 make you happier?
[02:31] <pitti> daniels: I don't have this graphics card :-/
[02:32] <pitti> daniels: I just wanted to know whether you happen to know sth about this issue
[02:32] <elmo> Mithrandir: hmm?  what's the difference? :)
[02:32] <Kamion> Keybuk: the scary thing is that the only reason that would be against policy is that it requires root to build
[02:33] <Kamion> presumably openoffice.org-amd64_1.1.12-2ubuntu4.orig.tar.gz
[02:33] <Kinnison> Oh dear
[02:33] <elmo> Mithrandir: I'd prefer it to be non-native - I don't have an opinion on the version number before that
[02:33] <Mithrandir> elmo: it will be openoffice.org-amd64_1.1.12-2ubuntu4.orig.tar.gz with
[02:33] <Mithrandir> elmo: ok
[02:33] <Mithrandir> I'll do that, then
[02:33] <Kamion> although that still means that if somebody makes a typo in debian/ in openoffice.org proper then you have to re-upload a 200MB tarball
 mail for canonical.com loops back to myself
[02:33] <daniels> pitti: i'm not sure; i have a mach64, but it's kind of dead right now. i spose i could find out on the weekend?
[02:33] <Keybuk> "oops"
[02:34] <Mithrandir> well, uploading 200MB is not a problem for _me_.. might be a problem for us, though.
[02:34] <pitti> daniels: please don't do any major work on this, I also asked branden and the submitter
[02:34] <Kamion> Mithrandir: my local mirror behind ADSL on which I rely to do my work is going to hate you, though ...
[02:34] <pitti> daniels: but if you want to try this, sure :-) Its tagged security, that's why I'm asking
[02:35] <daniels> pitti: yeah, sure
[02:35] <Mithrandir> Kamion: do you have amd64 or any reason to mirror amd64 debs?
[02:35] <Mithrandir> Kamion: if not, just exclude it.
[02:35] <elmo> he just got amd64 :)
[02:35] <Mithrandir> ook :)
[02:36] <Mithrandir> Kamion: if you have a decent DSL line, 200MB isn't that bad. *hides*
[02:36] <elmo> when's v2 oo.o due btw?
[02:36] <Mithrandir> sometime in 2005
[02:36] <elmo> ?? really? fuck
[02:36] <elmo> I was hoping not to have to keep this beyond warty
[02:36] <Mithrandir> somebody were talking about OOO 1.8-64-bit-clean late 2004/early 2005.
[02:37] <elmo> ah, ok
[02:37] <Mithrandir> I'm not sure it'll make Hoary, though.. we could do multiarch instead, which will solve this the right and nice way.
[02:37] <Mithrandir> *hides again*
[02:38] <Mithrandir> I wonder if somebody has set a price on my head yet. ;)
[02:38] <Kinnison> Mithrandir: about 12NOK last time I looked
[02:38] <Kinnison> s'not worth collecting on
[02:39] <Mithrandir> *phew*
[02:40] <Mithrandir> hmm, I either need to build ooo a bit more statically or extend ia32-libs with libstlport4.6.
[02:42] <Keybuk> that's pretty cheap for head
[02:42] <fabbione> not too bad :-)
[02:43] <fabbione> nvidia kernel and glx are almost done
[02:43] <Mithrandir> or do ia32-libs-openoffice.org
[02:43] <Keybuk> I'd certainly pay it, I think I've got 20NOK around somewhere still from GUADEC ... you got change?
[02:43] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: what do you want my head for?  It's useless without the rest of me.
[02:44] <Kinnison> SQUICK
[02:44] <ross_> ewww
[02:44] <ross_> bad bad bad Kinnison
[02:45] <Kamion> OK, potracing worked reasonably well
[02:45] <Kamion> at least the SVG looks OK ...
[02:53] <Kamion> inkscape is rather fun
[02:56] <pitti> fabbione: is the new security upload queue already operational and needs to be tested?
[02:56] <pitti> fabbione: I already did some security uploads, but need to do some more
[02:57] <fabbione> pitti: i think so.. elmo and mdz are the right persons to ask
[02:58] <pitti> fabbione: thanks
[02:58] <fabbione> pitti: i only did enable security in base-config/apt-setup
[02:58] <fabbione> the archive is there
[02:58] <fabbione> i am not sure if the upload works,
[02:58] <fabbione> neither the buildd.
[02:58] <pitti> elmo: is the new security upload queue already operational and needs to be tested? I need to do some more security uploads, so if you need some test packages...
[02:58] <elmo> don't test it with real packages, they'll be thrown away
[02:59] <elmo> you can test it if you want tho
[02:59] <pitti> elmo: okay, they certainly shouldn't get eaten :-)
[03:02] <debianist> anything we have outof the box to handle iClick tiny vga cams?
[03:03] <debianist> it's HAL configured and detected ok, what app should be used against it?
[03:04] <ross_> gnome-meeting i guess for a video conference
[03:08] <debianist> ross_ : lacking a video manager seemingly. should I manually apttitude one?
[03:09] <ross_> video manager?
[03:10] <debianist> ross_ : on the gnomemeeting, the config druid asks for a video manager to choose.
[03:10] <ross_> i've never used it, sorry
[03:10] <lamont> mewh
[03:10] <debianist> ross_ : has only "Picture" currently. on the side note it says Video4linux be the most common one. 
[03:10] <ross_> thats a kernel thing
[03:11] <seb128> somebody has an advice on http://bugs.debian.org/270967 ?
[03:13] <Kamion> seb128: strange interaction between rmdir and chattr I think
[03:14] <seb128> yeah. But that's a bug ?
[03:14] <seb128> I should reassign it to ... ?
[03:14] <debianist> seb128 : i'll reboot to my test ubuntu have a go at it, you say it will erease /etc ?
[03:14] <Kamion> seb128: rmdir --ignore-fail-on-non-empty ignores EEXIST
[03:14] <Kamion> seb128: but if the directory's immutable then you get EPERM instead
[03:14] <lamont> Kamion: you see my email on postfix vs d-i?
[03:14] <seb128> debianist: no, will no, just display an error on purge with chattr +i /
[03:15] <Kamion> seb128: er, I'd consider it a bizarre corner case and close it, TBH, it's purely cosmetic ...
[03:15] <Kamion> lamont: don't think so, where?
[03:15] <lamont> cjwatson@d.o
[03:15] <seb128> Kamion: ok, thanks for the explanations
[03:15] <lamont> Kamion: should I toss a copy somewhere else?
[03:16] <Kamion> seb128: it'll be either coreutils or the kernel if it can be "fixed" at all
[03:16] <Kamion> lamont: when, what subject?
[03:16] <lamont> Subject: postfix and the installer
[03:16] <lamont>  about 6-8 hours ago
[03:16] <seb128> Kamion: hum, perhaps I should reassign it as minor on coreutils ?
[03:16] <lamont> 05:36 UTC
[03:17] <lamont> Message-ID: <20040910053656.GA30825@mmjgroup.com>
[03:17] <Kamion> seb128: coul dbe
[03:17] <Kamion> s/ d/d 
[03:17] <seb128> ok, thanks
[03:18] <Kamion> lamont: can't find anything in my mail logs at all
[03:18] <Kamion> lamont: throw it at cjwatson@canonical.com, see if that gets to me
[03:18] <Mithrandir> why do my packages _always_ end up having gcc source code in them?
[03:18] <Mithrandir> as in, _the_ gcc source code.
[03:19] <lamont> bounced
[03:19] <Mithrandir> I'm sure it's a conspiracy.
[03:19] <lamont> er, that is, I bounced it to you - same date, etc.
[03:19] <lamont> elmo: damn.  Mithrandir's onto the conspiracy....
[03:27] <Mithrandir> *grumble*
[03:29] <Kamion> lamont: uh, postfix is in Base ...
[03:29] <lamont> and crap sends email while running through */config
[03:29] <lamont> that is, during preconfig
[03:30] <lamont> and email doesn't work until postfix is configured.
[03:30] <lamont> in part because postfix creates its user/groups in postinst...
[03:30] <lamont> and moving all of postinst into preinst just feels evil. :)
[03:31] <Kamion> I'll reply by mail
[03:31] <lamont> thanks
[03:50] <Kamion> yay, fan+thermal in the installer
[03:50] <Kamion> nice quiet box
[03:54] <pitti> thom: BTW, the new pmount is in (that supports -l)
[03:55] <pitti> thom: any success with that <censored> hal
[03:55] <pitti> thom: ?
[03:56] <thom> pitti: i've not thrown my computer out of the window yet
[03:56] <thom> but i've not really started the day yet, either
[03:56] <thom> guess i'm on nearly-american time toda
[03:57] <pitti> thom: did you feel like? :-)
[03:57] <thom> yesterday, yes
[03:57] <pitti> thom: throwing windows out of the computer is always a better option.
[03:58] <thom> well, that would mean i couldn't shoot monsters :_0
[03:58] <doko> fabbione: pong
[04:00] <Keybuk> or watch Firefly and learn rude chinese phrases :p
[04:00] <Mithrandir> heh
[04:09] <lamont> Kamion: that explains why it used to work.. :-)
[04:25] <Mithrandir> gnome-terminal is slooow.
[04:26] <Mithrandir> it has problems keeping up with my gcc compile.
[04:27] <pitti> Mithrandir: VGA console rocks
[04:27] <Mithrandir> fb is slow
[04:27] <Mithrandir> I rather just detached the screen
[04:27] <pitti> Mithrandir: radeonfb is fast, too, but I really mean VGA
[04:27] <pitti> Mithrandir: or, switch to another console :-)
[04:28] <Mithrandir> yeah, radeonfb is ok-ish fast.
[04:30] <pitti> Mithrandir: still, no terminal is fast enough to keep up with a Warthogs developer :-)
[04:30] <Mithrandir> :)
[04:30] <Mithrandir> right now, I'm waiting for gcc and shit to compile.. that takes a while, even on a P4 2.4GHz.
[04:31] <pitti> I'm invited to dinner. CU later!
[04:31] <thom> have fun
[04:31] <pitti> thom: thanks, you too!
[04:47] <dieman> *yawn*
[04:47] <Mithrandir> what is the recommended pppoe config tool in ubuntu?
[04:51] <dieman> i've used pppoeconf once at home, but that wasn't in ubuntu
[04:51] <dieman> its got a nice debconfized frontend
[04:52] <Mithrandir> ok
[04:53] <Kamion> weird, was it recently removed from warty?
[04:53] <Kamion> because debootstrap wants to install it
[04:53] <Kamion> (it = pppoeconf)
[04:53] <Kamion> Mithrandir: AIUI pppconfig knows how to configure pppoe now
[04:54] <Mithrandir> ok
[04:54] <Mithrandir> ppp spits out messages about running mknod
[05:12] <debianist> anybody saw the trash applet disappear after an upgrade?
[05:13] <debianist> can't find it nowhere anymore
[05:15] <elmo> why the heck does gnome-cups-manager only recommend gksu ?
[05:17] <elmo> AND OH MY GOD WHY DOES IT PRINT MY PASSWORD ON STDOUT??
[05:17] <seb128> oups, same here
[05:18] <seb128> jdub made changes to use gksudo
[05:18] <elmo> ok, I'll file a bug and assign to him
[05:19] <seb128> hum, apparently not due to the patches
[05:21] <debianist> nice new menu layout. how come reloggin a previous user doesn't update the menu layout? (there's need to create a new user account)
[05:21] <seb128> no way
[05:22] <seb128> what do you call "menu layout", the computer menu, or the starters and applets on the panel ?
[05:34] <debianist> computer menu
[05:34] <debianist> applications did not change
[05:35] <debianist> seb128 : any idea why a new account must be created to witness the changes?
[05:35] <ross_> doesn't sound possible to me, assuming you've added the main menu applet to the panel (there by default)
[05:38] <debianist> oh
[05:39] <seb128> debianist: as said before, no way, killing the panel is enough to get the changes
[05:51] <debianist> seb128 : k
[05:52] <debianist> seb128 : i have logged in and out several times, and nothing changed
[05:53] <seb128> debianist: which version of gnome-panel ?
[05:55] <debianist> seb128 : Gnome gnome-panel 2.7.92.1
[05:55] <seb128> dpkg -l gnome-panel
[05:55] <seb128> I know which upstream version is in warty
[05:55] <debianist> ii  gnome-panel    2.7.92.1-0ubun Launch and/or dock GNOME 2 applications
[05:56] <seb128> COLUMNS=150 dpkg -l gnome-panel
[05:59] <debianist> 2.7.92.1-0ubuntu6
[06:00] <seb128> ok, screenshot of the computer menu open after a killall gnome-panel please :)
[06:00] <debianist> seb128 : in about 15 miuntes..ok?
[06:03] <seb128> no problem
[06:09] <seb128> mdz: around ?
[06:09] <mdz> seb128: yes
[06:09] <seb128> http://packages.qa.debian.org/x/xpdf/news/1.html
[06:09] <seb128> we have -7, that's -8 (current in debian)
[06:09] <seb128> I need to upload to add the mime type handling
[06:10] <seb128> do you think we should take -8 ?
[06:15] <mdz> seb128: ok
[06:15] <seb128> thanks
[06:31] <Kinnison> re
[06:39] <kagou> hi
[07:05] <mdz> Kamion: is the install CD splash image final?  it looks a bit odd
[07:07] <Kamion> mdz: the weird black and white one?
[07:08] <Kamion> or the colour one?
[07:08] <mdz> Kamion: black and white
[07:09] <mdz> Kamion: also, I seem to be running into the same problem jdub was, where cdrom-detect fails and it ends up with "Failed getting Release file /cdrom/dists//Release"
[07:09] <Kamion> mdz: I did a lot of SVG hacking earlier today to try and improve it, it's less bad now
[07:09] <Kamion> mdz: but it still looks pretty toytown
[07:09] <Kamion> mdz: what does 'debconf-get cdrom-detect/cdrom_hdparm' say?
[07:10] <mdz> Kamion: -c3
[07:11] <Kamion> mdz: rsync a new image, I built one middle of today
[07:11] <mdz> ah
[07:11] <Kamion> mdz: it can take a while for changes to propagate from the archive to initrd
[07:11] <Kamion> +s
[07:11] <mdz> this would be the daily from 0800 today
[07:11] <Kamion> because there has to be a daily-installer-* build first and elmo has to byhand that, and the CD daily builds happen before elmo normally gets up
[07:11] <mdz> I'll get the new one
[07:18] <Kamion> mdz: I'm making a few changes to the way I handle debootstrap, to make it automatically generate nearly everything from germinate output (it only looked at i386 beforehand)
[07:18] <Kamion> mdz: I notice that hfsplus, hfsutils, and libhfsp0 are technically in Base on all architectures, even though we really only care about them on powerpc
[07:19] <Kamion> (since they're available in the archive on all architectures)
[07:19] <Kamion> mdz: do you want me to come up with a way to override those out of Base on amd64/i386, or should they just be left there?
[07:24] <Kamion> mdz: I also want to take the bootloaders out of the list that debootstrap installs; that's becoming established practice in Debian, since if you use expert mode and opt to install lilo then you don't want the grub package installed, and on some subarchitectures having the wrong bootloader package installed can actually be harmful
[07:25] <Kamion> d-i is already capable of installing the bootloader packages on-demand itself
[07:29] <mdz> Kamion: if it's simpler, I don't mind them being in base on all architectures
[07:29] <mdz> Kamion: eek
[07:30] <mdz> Loading 
[07:30] <mdz> Invalid or corrupt kernel image
[07:30] <Kamion> uh
[07:30] <Kamion> works for me?
[07:30] <Kamion> bad burn maybe
[07:30] <Kamion> let me see how difficult an override would be
[07:31] <mdz> hmm
[07:31] <mdz> looks fine when I mount it
[07:31] <mdz> 9a68e53af1ea1f411f5e63b712def20a  install/vmlinuz
[07:33] <Kamion> 90f938370f70927f3996da63f89462c2  /mnt/install/vmlinuz
[07:33] <mdz> weird
[07:33] <mdz> no errors
[07:34] <Kamion> that's just loop-mounted, and rsync thinks it's accurate
[07:34] <mdz> yeah, I get that from my loop-mounted image, too
[07:37] <Kamion> anyway, got to go for a bit
[07:41] <lamont2> sigh.  I need to find a better coffee shop.
[07:41] <thom> i'm sending the callback for the device removal as soon as i know what the device is, but by the time gvm responds to that, the data is still gone
[07:42] <thom> which is, i guess, why they try to do the umount in hal, since the scheduling is just broken
[07:47] <mdz> Kamion: ah, nice colour logo now
[07:48] <lamont2> mdz: re 1126 - it's either Depend procmail, or have postfix deal with mailbox_command failing..  I'm inclined to go with Depending, but don't really want to do that to Debian.
[07:49] <mdz> lamont2: #1126 is a Warty bug; just needs to be fixed in Warty
[07:49] <lamont2> mdz: yeah
[07:49] <thom> mdz: we might have to allow hal to pumount things that gvm mounts, at least for warty
[07:50] <lamont2> that grumbling is just me wearing my debian maintainers hat. :-(
[07:50] <lamont2> kicking and screaming on the way to make the change, as it were.
[08:06] <mdz> lamont2: what about this linux-kernel-di vs. linux-image vs. mkinitrd issue?
[08:07] <lamont2> was just firing up windows to go check on that.  Most likely situation is the damn kernel image's refusal to remove non-interactively.
[08:09] <dieman> hey
[08:09] <dieman> do you guys have i915 support in xf86?
[08:09] <mdz> lamont2: you were...uh...what?
[08:09] <mdz> dieman: that's a question for daniels or fabbione, not sure
[08:09] <dieman> ok
[08:10] <lamont2> er, xterm windows..
[08:10] <dieman> im going to login to my ubuntu box at home and check the changelog
[08:10] <dieman> xf86 has it, but i dont know if x.org picked it up
[08:10] <lamont2> /var/lib/dpkg/info/initrd-tools.postrm: line 7: update-modules: command not found
[08:10] <dieman> and if they backported it
[08:10] <mdz> lamont2: ah :-)
[08:10] <lamont2> we have a winner...
[08:10] <elmo> yeah
[08:10] <mdz> lamont2: so initrd-tools needs depends: module-init-tools | modutils?
[08:11] <lamont2> yep
[08:11] <mdz> thanks
[08:13] <lamont2> utf8 "\xF6" does not map to Unicode at /usr/bin/dch line 612, <S> chunk 1.
[08:13] <lamont2> ain't utf 8 terminals/locales fun?
[08:17] <Keybuk> \xC3\xB6 :-)
[08:18] <lamont2> initrd-tools and postfix uploaded
[08:20] <lamont2> mdz: retried linux-kernel-di-i386, will check the rest of the buildd's chroots when I get home. :-(
[08:21] <mdz> lamont2: oh, you are not at home?
[08:22] <lamont2> if dpkg selection is set to purge (but the package is installed), will apt-get upgrade actually upgrade the package?
[08:22] <lamont2> down in town fetching sounder 8
[08:22] <lamont2> and waiting for my wife to come back with the car.. :-)
[08:22] <lamont2> I _could_ do it now, but it's easier to just watch the build logs and deal as needed...
[08:23] <lamont2> sitting at the nice coffee shop
[08:25] <lamont2> regrettably, so is about half of the college.
[08:27] <mdz> lamont2: apt does not pay attention to the dselect selections unless you use dselect-upgrade
[08:31] <lamont2> cool
[08:31] <lamont2> next automatic upgrade will fix the rest of the chroots then, 0200-ish UK time
[08:32] <lamont2> amusingly, the apt-get -udy upgrade isn't noticibly slowing down the rsync.  very interesting.
[08:32] <mdz> maybe they rate-limit on a per-connection basis
[08:32] <lamont2> (same host both ends..)
[08:32] <lamont2> must be, but that's new if true
[08:33] <lamont2> both are completely I/O bound (cpu is ~0% busy)
[08:35] <mdz> daniels: PING
[08:37] <mdz> lamont2: I hate to pull you away, but you have 3 RC bugs which need your love
[08:37] <mdz> and we release our preview in 5 days
[08:44] <mdz> seb128: ping?
[08:47] <lamont2> mdz: 1115 - main has no references to libmysqlclient12 (outside of that source package, which could possibly move to universe??)  would you like the bug closed or downgraded? (universe is still thuroughly b0rked, of course...)
[08:48] <elmo> germinate disagrees
[08:48] <lamont2> elmo: germinate is probably right then..
[08:49] <lamont2> apt-cache showpkg should show everythign in the cache, no?
[08:49] <lamont2> what does germinate list, I wonder?
[08:49] <elmo> mysql-client deps on libmysql12
[08:49] <elmo> we want that in main
[08:50] <elmo> (not that it's relevant to the bug, of course, I'm just talking about the "move to universe" thing)
[08:50] <elmo> mdz: we're dropping ttf-bangla?
[08:50] <lamont2> sigh.  thought that one came from the other
[08:50] <mdz> elmo: yes
[08:50] <lamont2> elmo: actually, it is semi relavant to the bug - I need to uload mysql-client as well
[08:50] <mdz> elmo: https://bugzilla.no-name-yet.com/show_bug.cgi?id=769
[08:51] <mdz> lamont2: why do you need to upload mysql?
[08:51] <lamont2> mysql-client is thename of the source ackage that delivers libmysqlclient12
[08:52] <lamont2> doh.
[08:52] <lamont2> anyway, wife almost here, heading home from there, and then back online
[08:52] <elmo> kamion: anastacia wants to remove *-di... guess the seeds need some love?
[08:52] <lamont2> scrollback is intact at the house, it appears, will read when I get there.
[08:53] <doko> mdz: are the DSA available in some other form than on www.debian.org/security?
[08:53] <mdz> mysql-client is a binary package
[08:53] <mdz> built by mysql-dfsg
[08:53] <mdz> doko: they are in webwml CVS, an RSS feed, in the mailing list archives, etc.
[08:54] <lamont2> mdz: so do you want 1115 updated to reflect that just universe is borked (still open), or closed not-warty?
[08:54] <mdz> lamont2: I want for everything in main besides mysql itself to be built with libmysqlclient10; is that done?
[08:54] <lamont2> yes
[08:55] <lamont2> universe remains, and will continue to remain.
[08:55] <lamont2> but then, universe isn't in the bts, is it..
[08:55] <mdz> for the next 5 days, I encourage all of you to forget that universe exists at all
[08:55] <mdz> that is all
[08:55] <lamont2> which really means 'fixed', not 'notwarty'
[08:55] <lamont2> closing
[09:08] <daniels> fmdzpong, saw your bug
[09:08] <daniels> guh
[09:08] <daniels> mdz: that
[09:08] <daniels> mdz: looking at cdrtools, i think the only real solution is to take 2.01a37 for now, possibly fork; im trying to contact other distro cdrtools maintainers about it
[09:12] <mdz> daniels: what about 1056/1057?
[09:13] <tvon> did the network go away in the comptuer vfs view?
[09:13] <tvon> nm, found it in the menu
[09:13] <elmo> gar, why does postfix now depend on procmail?
[09:14] <mdz> tvon: yes, it did, and that's where it went :-)
[09:14] <mdz> elmo: because it wants to do local mail delivery
[09:14] <mdz> with procmail
[09:15] <elmo> and that makes sense security wise?
[09:15] <daniels> mdz: you told me not to work on scalable-cyrfonts, and i don't have any way to test the pfaedit stuff other than scalable-cyrfonts; doing a simple script, as i said, failed, and the only way i had to test it was through scalable-cyrfonts (seemingly the only package affected), which is in universe ...
[09:16] <mdz> hmm, I thought procmail was already in base
[09:16] <mdz> daniels: so your resolution was to just leave the bugs open and do nothing?
[09:18] <daniels> mdz: i'm working on other bugs. would you like me to close 1056 NOTWARTY, and add a note to 1057 that i'm working on other stuff which actually affects warty?
[09:19] <mdz> daniels: if 1056 is a bug in a package that is not in main, then yes, it should be closed notwarty
[09:19] <mdz> daniels: if 1057 is a bug in warty, but only affects packages in universe, then it can be downgraded
[09:23] <lamont> elmo: was procmail not already base?
[09:25] <lamont> mdz: procmail is desktop, not base
[09:26] <mdz> lamont: yes, I see that now
[09:26] <mdz> in which case, it doesn't seem appropriate for postfix to depend on it after all
[09:27] <mdz> I seem to recall we discussed this some time ago
[09:27] <mdz> and you said that postfix could deliver mail to the spool without any external programs
[09:27] <mdz> which is why we don't need procmail in base
[09:29] <lamont> true.  But if you tell it to use procmail, then procmail has to be there.. (at least right now...)  Probably warrants at least a warning from local if it's not there...
[09:32] <mdz> let's not tell it to use procmail, then
[09:32] <mdz> it's trivial for users who want procmail to put it in ~/.forward
[09:32] <mdz> I don't see any reason why local delivery shouldn't work out of the box
[09:33] <mdz> and if it did, that would address all of those errors from maintainer scripts/debconf
[09:33] <mdz> (outside of base, anyway)
[09:33] <lamont> right.
[09:33] <lamont> which basically means reverse the change I just did, eh?
[09:35] <lamont> the other option (which I think might vioate policy) would be to add a procmail question 'should I tell postfix to use procmail?' in the event that it finds postfix is the mta...
[09:36] <lamont> but that's too much work for today.
[09:39] <Mithrandir> lamont: what would happen then if you first install postfix, then procmail?
[09:39] <fabbione> ew
[09:40] <lamont> Mithrandir: that's the situation we have: mailbox_command is not set, unless you then dpkg-reconfigure postfix, or postconf -e it yourself
[09:40] <elmo> this all seems a bit OTT to me - why can't the (minority? of) people who want to use procmail as the LDA configure postfix manually
[09:40] <elmo> +?
[09:40] <lamont> elmo: that's where I'm taking it.
[09:43] <elmo> bugzilla does the most bizarre DWIM things
[09:44] <elmo> I responded to that gnome-cups-manager and after I clicked on 'commit' it dumped me into some other random bug
[09:44] <lamont> elmo: it dumped you into the next bug in the list that you had fetched.
[09:44] <fabbione> mdz: ping
[09:44] <[Clint] > yeah, that annoys me too
[09:45] <elmo> lamont: dude, I didn't fetach a list - I clicked on a link in the freaking mail it sent me
[09:45] <thom> yeah, it's awful
[09:45] <lamont> er, maybe the last list you fetched (3 weeks ago, even??) dunno
[09:45] <mdz> fabbione: pong
[09:45] <lamont> maybe it just wants you to have the opportunity to close another one?
[09:46] <mdz> fabbione: what do I need to do in order to debug this: https://bugzilla.no-name-yet.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1143
[09:46] <lamont> mdz: down the road, I think the solution is to have procmail do something in _its_ postinstall to cause it to become the lda.
[09:46] <fabbione> mdz: let me check.. i just come back
[09:46] <elmo> mdz: is the add-yourself-to-random groups going to be in the woody upgrade notes or something?
[09:46] <Mithrandir> lamont: I think it then gives you the next bug in your bug list or something
[09:46] <mdz> lamont: yes, but for now, it should be sufficient to have postfix be non-broken
[09:46] <mdz> elmo: something like that
[09:46] <mdz> fabbione: thanks
[09:47] <lamont> mdz: 1126 is not about postfix being broken.  and the others are about people trying to send mail before the MTA is configured.
[09:47] <fabbione> mdz: did you do the usual test? or just a reinstall of the server?
[09:48] <mdz> lamont: ok, so 1126 is in fact a feature request for procmail by default?
[09:48] <mdz> lamont: which we aren't going to do, for warty at least
[09:48] <lamont> right
[09:48] <mdz> lamont: ok
[09:48] <lamont> and will (eventually) be fixed in procmail, not postfix.
[09:48] <mdz> fabbione: I did a fresh install from today's daily
[09:48] <mdz> fabbione: 4.3.0.dfsg.1-6ubuntu15
[09:48] <fabbione> mdz: ok i need you to play a bit
[09:49] <fabbione> mdz: you need to stick a set -x in postinst and do a clean install of the package
[09:50] <mdz> fabbione: what is the best way to get it installed with set -x in postinst?
[09:50] <mdz> users need to be able to debug this with us
[09:50] <fabbione> mdz: it's not an easy thing
[09:51] <fabbione> mdz: dpkg -e xserver-xfree86_blabla
[09:51] <fabbione> mdz: dpkg -x xserver-xfree86_blabla .
[09:51] <fabbione> mdz: vi DEBIAN/postinst
[09:51] <fabbione> mdz: dpkg-deb -b . xserver-xfree86_blabla
[09:51] <mdz> fabbione: and this is what we must instruct users to do when X autodetection doesn't work??
[09:51] <Mithrandir> oh well, ia32-libs-source will just be some 60-70-80MB, it semms.
[09:51] <Mithrandir> seems, even
[09:52] <fabbione> mdz: no. that's to understand why xresprobe doesn't work for you
[09:52] <fabbione> mdz: it is clearly a stupid bug somewhere
[09:53] <fabbione> mdz: either xresprobe is adding a space somewhere
[09:53] <fabbione> or the postinst is loosing the value somewhere
[09:53] <fabbione> so it's a bug you fix once.. and that's it
[09:53] <fabbione> also if autodetection fails there is the fallback
[09:53] <mdz> fabbione: ok, I have the output, where do you want it?
[09:53] <fabbione> anyway
[09:54] <fabbione> mdz: anywhere.. web.. mail
[09:54] <fabbione> mdz: i wanted to talk to you for other stuff
[09:54] <fabbione> mdz: nvidia drivers..
[09:54] <mdz> emailed
[09:54] <fabbione> mdz: i got the kernel module into linux-restricted-
[09:54] <lamont> hrm... need sounder 8...
[09:54] <fabbione> mdz: from the same sources we also build the nvidia-glx (X binary driver)
[09:54] <fabbione> mdz: but we will need to import other 2 packages
[09:55] <fabbione> mdz: nvidia-kernel-common that i will need to upload as new (it needs a little ubuntu1 change)
[09:55] <fabbione> mdz: and nvidia-settings
[09:55] <fabbione> the latest 2 packages are in contrib
[09:56] <fabbione> elmo suggested to stick them in restricted and I agree with him
[09:56] <mdz> fine
[09:56] <fabbione> since they depends/reccomends/suggets restricted/non-free packages
[09:56] <fabbione> ok
[09:56] <fabbione> i only miss the last bits that i will complete right now
[09:56] <fabbione> the package was more messy than expected
[09:57] <fabbione> mdz: on the other side i killed one build layer, so that it will make easier to do security updates
[09:57] <mdz> fabbione: which one?
[09:57] <mdz> (which layer, I mean)
[09:57] <fabbione> mdz: nvidia-graphics-driver (source) -> nvidia-glx{,-dev} and nvidia-kernel-source
[09:58] <fabbione> mdz: nvidia-modules-i386 build-dep on nvidia-kernel-source
[09:58] <fabbione> -> all the modules for the kernels
[09:58] <fabbione> i killed the nvidia-kernel-source
[09:58] <fabbione> now everything comes out from one package
[09:58] <mdz> hmm
[09:59] <mdz> does imlib2 need to be in main?
[09:59] <fabbione> including the nvidia-kernel-source (last bit that i need to finish) for people that rolls out custom kernels
[09:59] <mdz> libcaca build-depends on libimlib2-dev
[09:59] <mdz> however, nothing depends on libimlib2
[09:59] <mdz> so either something is statically linking it
[09:59] <mdz> or we don't need it
[10:00] <elmo> it'll be statically linking
[10:00] <elmo> libcaca doesn't provide a shared library
[10:00] <fabbione> mdz: does it sound ok for you?
[10:00] <mdz> that is fucked
[10:00] <mdz> fabbione: yes
[10:00] <fabbione> mdz: before i push everything in the archive?
[10:00] <fabbione> mdz: ok goody
[10:00] <elmo> mdz: more or less than libgal20423?
[10:01] <mdz> elmo: does libgal statically link too?
[10:01] <elmo> no, someone managed to convince upstream to stop changing the ABI instead
[10:02] <elmo> but sam's pretty clueful, he tends to only do the static-only thing for fast moving, still-in-development and not-1.0-yet libs
[10:05] <fabbione> mdz: did you get asked for the question about modes?
[10:05] <fabbione> mdz: right?=
[10:05] <mdz> fabbione: correct
[10:06] <mdz> during the install from CD
[10:06] <fabbione> mdz: yes.. i can see.. i think there are 2 bugs there.. 
[10:06] <lamont> mdz: cyrus-sasl2_2.1.19-1.1 includes security fixes... :-(
[10:07] <fabbione> mdz: one is that when it detects the resoltuion the priority is not lowered (reason why you see the question) and another one seems to be a missing db_get (again)
[10:07] <fabbione> mdz: but i will check it after the nvidia stuff
[10:07] <fabbione> i want to close this package
[10:08] <mdz> fabbione: it was working for me in Oxford, but my past few installs have not worked
[10:09] <mdz> in that they asked the mode question
[10:09] <fabbione> mdz: yup.. i got it
[10:09] <mdz> fabbione: when I install my hacked .deb, it doesn't ask me the mode question, though
[10:09] <mdz> it only happened when I installed fro mCD
[10:09] <mdz> and no, I do not want to burn a CD with set -x and reinstall :-)
[10:10] <fabbione> mdz: don't worry :-)
[10:11] <fabbione> i am not going to ask you to do that
[10:11] <fabbione> mdz: ah... so if you purge and reinstall the server from the net it works???
[10:11] <fabbione> or from a local archive=
[10:11] <fabbione> ?
[10:12] <mdz> fabbione: I followed your instructions, and it only asked me for the keyboard layout
[10:12] <fabbione> AH
[10:12] <mdz> I can do a reinstall from the same CD if it would help
[10:12] <fabbione> i am thinking....
[10:12] <fabbione> just a sec...
[10:12] <fabbione> i need to picture...
[10:16] <fabbione> does installing from CD stick anything strange in the environment?
[10:16] <fabbione> like a $2 on installing the package?
[10:16] <doko> fabbione: you wanted to hand me over the kernel-restricted package?
[10:17] <fabbione> doko: not yet sorry.. i was searching for you for a bash/make question.. but i found an answer already
[10:19] <fabbione> mdz: question.. when you install as i explained in the mail, do you notice the screen flashing?
[10:20] <fabbione> mdz: like when you run X -probeonly or something
[10:20] <thom> mdz: any comment on what we do about umounting?
[10:21] <lamont> mdz: only signficant diff on the db4.2/cyrus-sasl2 front is that debian has a versioned b-d on libdb4,2, and we don't.  Will update
[10:30] <fabbione> dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc -us
[10:30] <fabbione> dh_testroot: You must run this as root (or use fakeroot).
[10:30] <fabbione> ???
[10:30] <fabbione> and i am not in build: target
[10:30] <lamont> fabbione: anything messing with LD_PRELOAD?
[10:31] <mdz> fabbione: yes, xresprobe runs and the screen flashes
[10:31] <fabbione> i just opened a clean shell...
[10:31] <fabbione> mdz: does the same when installing from CD?
[10:31] <mdz> thom: can we have hal call pumount in place of umount?
[10:31] <mdz> lamont: ok
[10:33] <fabbione> lamont: nope.. the same code in another package work
[10:34] <fabbione> THIS IS SO ANNOYING
[10:34] <thom> mdz: yes, but doesn't that give us the problem that it's the wrong uid?
[10:35] <thom> mdz: last i spoke to martin, pumount wouldn't unmount unless the uid of the running process is the same as the uid of the mount
[10:35] <mdz> thom: the current pumount should not have that problem
[10:35] <thom> ok, great
[10:36] <lamont> mdz: have you read the changelog from cyrus-sasl2_2.1.19-1.1?
[10:36] <fabbione> lamont: what would you sugget to debug that problem
[10:36] <fabbione> ?
[10:37] <seb128_> mdz: pong
[10:37] <mdz> lamont: yes, and I don't see any security fixes in it
[10:37] <mdz> lamont: only in 2.1.19-1
[10:37] <lamont> we could take 2.1.19-1...
[10:38] <mdz> seb128_: I forget :-/
[10:38] <seb128_> ok :)
[10:38] <mdz> lamont: 2.1.19-1.1 looks OK
[10:38] <lamont> want I should ask for a sync?
[10:39] <mdz> yes
[10:39] <mdz> seb128_: oh, I think it was about the PATH
[10:39] <mdz> seb128_: does any part of gnome or gdm set PATH for the user?
[10:39] <mdz> seb128_: I want to know how to change the path that the user gets when they open gnome-terminal
[10:40] <mdz> which is a non-login shell by default
[10:40] <seb128_> mdz: /etc/X11/gdm/gdm.conf:DefaultPath=/...
[10:42] <mdz> seb128_: thanks, are you planning a gdm upload soon?
[10:42] <mdz> if not, I will upload it to add sbin
[10:42] <seb128_> no upload planned for the moment
[10:42] <lamont> mdz: when is the freeze for <RC bugs?
[10:43] <mdz> lamont: https://wiki.no-name-yet.com/PreviewFreeze
[10:44] <mdz> seb128: debian seems to have a new upstream
[10:44] <seb128> yes, we want to sync it at this point ?
[10:44] <seb128> I was not sure
[10:45] <seb128> mdz: hum, since it's a part of the GNOME desktop ... will look to sync it tomorrow. You want /sbin in the DefaultPath ?
[10:45] <mdz> seb128: yes, just set DefaultPath to the same as RootPath please
[10:45] <seb128> ok
[10:45] <mdz> seb128: do you want a bug to remind you?
[10:46] <seb128> no, that's fine, I've added it to my todo list
[10:46] <mdz> thanks
[10:46] <seb128> np
[10:47] <thom> argh. the other issue we may have is that gnome-volume-manager kills itself if hal gets stopped
[10:47] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: how hot does your lappy get?
[10:47] <Mithrandir> thom: oh, so that's what kills it sometimes on my desktop..
[10:48] <lamont> mdz: of course, you have to look at /WartyWarthog to get the date.  I'm assuming that the schedule means that PreviewFreeze started sept 6.
[10:49] <mdz> lamont: yes, we are in previewfreeze except where explicitly overridden from higher up
[10:49] <lamont> mdz: will FinalFreeze be done purely administratively (slapping heads of offenders), or will the source-insertion acquire a manual flavor?
[10:50] <mdz> lamont: I hope that we can do it without brute force
[10:50] <lamont> ojk
[10:50] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: depends
[10:51] <lamont> Hrm... FeatureFreeze page references FeatureGoals, which is not there.. :-(
[10:51] <Keybuk> it keeps itself comfortable for having on the lap with just boxers usually
[10:51] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: ok
[10:51] <Keybuk> there's enough redundant fans to kick in when it warms up that it doesn't burn
[10:51] <Keybuk> unless thom doesn't make the thermal module load, then bad things happen
[10:51] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: the nc4010 is about 10kNOK cheaper than a fully-loaded x40, so I'm considering it instead.
[10:51] <lamont> Keybuk: you find that depends provides sufficient insulation above and beyond boxers,eh?
[10:52] <Keybuk> the nc4010 is also rather higher spec than the X40
[10:52] <Mithrandir> how so?
[10:52] <Keybuk> 1.7Ghz 2GB RAM max vs. 1.2 Ghz 1GB RAM max
[10:52] <Mithrandir> ehm, the x40 has 1.5GB max RAM
[10:53] <Mithrandir> and you can't compare the cpus directly either, one is LV, the other is not.
[10:53] <Keybuk> LV?
[10:53] <thom> low voltage
[10:53] <Mithrandir> low voltage
[10:53] <Keybuk> they're both P-M
[10:53] <Mithrandir> (and CPU speed isn't too important to me, but that's me)
[10:53] <Keybuk> same series from what I recall
[10:54] <Keybuk> the X40 is a little smaller and lighter though, and has the upper hand on battery life
[10:55] <mdz> lamont: FeatureGoals never existed
[10:55] <Mithrandir> the price I got from HPs web site was sans VAT, that evened them out a bit
[10:55] <Mithrandir> but the nc4010 still has the upper hand. :/
[10:55] <Keybuk> I like them both
[10:56] <Keybuk> it was the lack of the touchpad on the X40 that swung it for me
[10:56] <mdz> I have a touchpad I never use
[10:56] <Mithrandir> I dislike touchpads, so that's ok
[10:57] <thom> i used to think i couldn't live without a touchpad. but i'm very happy with the X40
[10:57] <Keybuk> thom: I broke my fingers as a kid, and they never properly healed, so the pressure needed for the nipple just hurts after a while :-(
[10:58] <thom> arh
[10:58] <Keybuk> Mithrandir: just don't get the Dell or Apple <g>
[10:59] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: don't even _mention_ dell.  I will not, ever, ever, ever buy anything from them.
[10:59] <Keybuk> I still like the old LS, but it was the only decent laptop they ever made
[10:59] <Mithrandir> apple is nice, but the missing support for airport extreme and the lack of mouse buttons counts against it
[10:59] <Keybuk> and the lack of pcmcia ?
[11:00] <Mithrandir> why is that a big issue?  I mostly use pcmcia for my wlan card. :P
[11:00] <Keybuk> yeah, but with no working internal wifi, you're left a bit stuck <g>
[11:01] <Mithrandir> thom: the x40 also has three mouse buttons, don't it?
[11:01] <Keybuk> yeah, the nc4010 has an irritating 4
[11:02] <Keybuk> it would've been better if they'd stuck a third in the middle rather than two
[11:02] <Keybuk> only IBM seem to "get" the whole 3-mouse thing at the moment
[11:03] <Mithrandir> do the four on the nc4010 appear as distinct buttons to X?
[11:03] <Keybuk> yeah
[11:03] <thom> mdz: hal@fandango:/$ pumount -l /dev/sdb1
[11:03] <thom> Error: device /dev/sdb1 was not mounted by you
[11:03] <Keybuk> two on the touchpad, two on the stick (which appear as seperate devices)
[11:04] <mdz> thom: pmount 1.0-1?
[11:04] <mdz> er
[11:04] <mdz> 0.1-1?
[11:04] <thom> yeah
[11:05] <mdz> thom: mail martin about it; I think he was supposed to have removed that
[11:05] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: have you gotten suspend and such to work properly or is it still fucked?
[11:05] <thom> yeah, will do
[11:05] <fabbione> mdz: did you read my question before? do you see the same screen swtiching while installing from CD?
[11:05] <mdz> fabbione: I don't know
[11:05] <Keybuk> still broken somewhere
[11:05] <Mithrandir> that kinda sucks.
[11:06] <fabbione> mdz: you can investigate that without using a -x in xserver-xfree86.. mind to check?
[11:06] <Keybuk> the consensus was that it was the Radeon causing the problems, but the new reset patches didn't help either :-(
[11:06] <mdz> fabbione: ok, I will start another reinstall
[11:06] <fabbione> mdz: it will make the thing much easier
[11:06] <fabbione> mdz: thanks
[11:06] <Keybuk> it suspends fine, S3 resume doesn't work though (S4 does)
[11:06] <fabbione> mdz: if it does not flip screen, yell at xresprobe :-)
[11:06] <mdz> fabbione: xresprobe works fine when I run it manually
[11:06] <thom> right, it works with that fix
[11:07] <Keybuk> the ACPI support is otherwise flawless (you can do things like echo on >/proc/acpi/fan/FAN2/state and stuff)
[11:07] <mdz> and when I did this test with you
[11:07] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: what radeon does it have?
[11:07] <Keybuk> IGP340M
[11:07] <Mithrandir> what does that translate to, model-number-wise?
[11:07] <Mithrandir> thom: and what kind of gfx card is on the x40?
[11:08] <Mithrandir> I wonder why vendors don't give out such info in the specs. :/
[11:08] <Keybuk> no idea, that's the model number
[11:08] <Keybuk> http://www.ati.com/products/radeonigp/rigp340m.html
[11:08] <fabbione> mdz: it is kinda of chicken egg problem.
[11:08] <mdz> npmccallum: how are you doing on your bugs and the init script changes?
[11:09] <thom> i855
[11:09] <thom> Mithrandir: ^
[11:09] <fabbione> mdz: xresprobe needs X and viceversa. it is true that xresprobe is installed, but it might be that X calls it too soon during a full clean installation and it fails on laptops
[11:09] <fabbione> mdz: since on laptops it has to execute X to detect the panel size...
[11:09] <Mithrandir> thom: ook.  3d-wise sucks, or?
[11:09] <thom> Mithrandir: no idea
[11:09] <mdz> fabbione: can you think of any other way to test this other than a complete reinstall?
[11:10] <mdz> fabbione: not only does this take some time, but if I am not staring at the screen the whole time, it is easy to miss whether or not there is a mode change
[11:10] <thom> Mithrandir: i think it's not horrible but not great either
[11:10] <fabbione> mdz: not really..... if it works in console and not on CD i am not sure how to check it...
[11:11] <fabbione> mdz: i don't have a laptop to scratch right now
[11:11] <Mithrandir> thom: ok, that's good enough for me.  Would be nice to be able to play some games, but I don't need D3 support.
[11:11] <fabbione> mdz: so someone has to do it for me
[11:11] <Keybuk> 3D isn't really a laptop feature
[11:11] <thom> esp when the laptop has no cd and a 12" screem
[11:11] <thom> screen
[11:11] <Mithrandir> thom: 12" is plenty. :)
[11:11] <Keybuk> yeah
[11:11] <Mithrandir> I still have good eyesight on my one good eye.
[11:11] <mdz> fabbione: another difference is that X is already running when I test post-install
[11:12] <fabbione> mdz: please can you test it exactly like i posted it?
[11:12] <fabbione> mdz: with no X running.. nothing.. from pure console?
[11:12] <Mithrandir> *sigh*, gcc-3.4 has at least gotten to running the test suite..
[11:13] <fabbione> mdz: each time you add or change something might give different results and/or another variable to take into account
[11:13] <Keybuk> aye, I find 12" about right
[11:13] <mdz> fabbione: there are a huge number of variables
[11:13] <fabbione> mdz: installing from console witu no X runnig should be like installing from CD
[11:13] <mdz> fabbione: whether or not X has started since boot, what mode the text console is in, etc.
[11:13] <mdz> there are many differences
[11:13] <mdz> anyway I will shut down X and try it
[11:13] <fabbione> mdz: that's why if we can try to keep them down to minimum it will be easier
[11:13] <mdz> but this worked during Oxford!
[11:14] <mdz> in all situations I tried
[11:14] <mdz> it is not something weird with whether X is running or not
[11:14] <fabbione> mdz: there have tons of changes since Oxfords
[11:14] <fabbione> we fixed a shit load of bugs
[11:14] <mdz> mdz@potpal ~ $ sudo /etc/init.d/gdm stop
[11:14] <mdz> Password:
[11:14] <mdz>  * Stopping GNOME Display Manager...                                     [ ok ] 
[11:14] <mdz> mdz@potpal ~ $ sudo xresprobe ati
[11:14] <mdz> id: 
[11:14] <mdz> res: 1024x768
[11:14] <mdz> freq: 
[11:14] <fabbione> nothing can guarantee that i didn't introduce another one
[11:14] <mdz> mdz@potpal ~ $ 
[11:15] <mdz> so now I will proceed with the reinstall
[11:15] <fabbione> thanks
[11:27] <mdz> lamont: I thought you downloaded sounder 8 at the cafe earlier today?
[11:27] <mdz> lamont: the current daily is better
[11:28] <thom> mdz: what do we do about #986 ? we have that version of the package, but i can't see a valid reproduction recipe, nor do i know any thing about fonts
[11:28] <lamont> will grab current daily then.,
[11:28] <lamont> I grabbed about 60% of it before my wife got back - damn college kids sucking up bandwidth anyway.
[11:29] <lamont> gonna drive down the road about 3 miles to a friends driveway and download it from inside the comfort of my car.
[11:29] <lamont> (yes, with permission)
[11:29] <lamont> _he_ has dsl, the bastards.
[11:29] <lamont> of course, it'll take me a few minutes to actually get out of the house.
[11:33] <mdz> thom: I can't seem to reproduce it, but I don't have a postscript printer and the comments are pretty convincing
[11:33] <mdz> thom: it was introduced by the fix for another bug
[11:33] <mdz> maybe we should back it out, since this seems worse
[11:33] <mdz> lamont: dsl 3 miles away, but none for you, eh?
[11:35] <Mithrandir> lamont: why is initrd-tools marked not-for-us on amd6?  Or am I misreading my mail?