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jdubso many channels...03:10
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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz_] : Ubuntu Technical Board Meeting -- 2004-09-21 1600UTC
mdz_5 minutes05:54
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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz_] : Ubuntu Technical Board Meeting -- 2004-09-21 1600UTC || Agenda at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoard
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mdz_ok, time to begin06:00
mdz_the first item on the agenda is a discussion of the new software to be brought into universe06:00
mdz_my understanding is that this includes Debian contrib, Debian non-free and a subset of Christian Marillat's packages06:01
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Kamion] : Ubuntu Technical Board Meeting -- 2004-09-21 1600UTC || Agenda at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
Mithrandirdoes this mean there will be no way for people to see whether they install free or non-free software from universe?06:01
mdz_that is correct06:02
mdz_universe would be a mixture06:02
mdz_or, we could use sections to delineate it06:02
Kamionthere's a comment on the agenda from jdub suggesting we avoid non-free in universe06:02
Keybukare we still going for a "you're installing software from universe, are you crazy?!" kinda warning?06:02
mdz_virtual jdub says, let's not do it06:02
mdz_Keybuk: yes06:02
elmoactually, it's everything in Marillat's - he doesn't have decss or anything flat out indistributable06:02
mdz_I have patches for synaptic waiting06:03
Keybukwhat do we class as non-free?  cf. mplayer06:03
mdz_elmo: he doesn't have java in there?06:03
MithrandirI think we should have non-free universe or at least sections in it06:03
elmomdz: no that I saw, no06:03
mdz_oh, ok. strike 'a subset of', then06:03
elmoMithrandir: the current plan for that is to change the section to universe/non-free for non-free software06:03
elmothe alternate/backup plan is to create universe-non-free06:04
MithrandirI would prefer the latter06:04
elmo(plan in the sense, of what I'd plan to do, if we go ahead, sort of thing)06:04
mdz_if the need is to let the user know whether they are installing free or non-free software, then a section is no good06:04
Mithrandiralso think of derivatives, they might want to get something off universe, and if they have to go through a lot of licenses, that's kinda wasted work.06:05
mdz_if the goal is just to classify it so that people can look and find out at a glance06:05
sabdflMithrandir: universe is "you're on your own"06:05
mdz_then sections are useful06:05
mdz_I think it is preferable that universe live up to its name, and be inclusive by nature06:05
mdz_so if we want further classification, it should be in subdivisions of universe06:05
mdz_that could mean that universe becomes a separate archive, having components, or that we use sections06:05
=== mdz_ hides from elmo
MithrandirI guess we can't have packages that exists in both universe and free-universe?06:06
Mithrandiror something along those lines?06:06
sabdflMithrandir: i'd prefer we do NO classification of universe software at all06:06
Keybukwhat kind of non-free is likely to end up in universe?06:06
elmomdz: dude, we can't have two archives - we have packages with source in main and binaries in universe06:06
sabdflthat way we don't have to argue semantics, it's either main, or it's not06:06
mdz_elmo: good point06:06
mdz_it would be useful to have a marker for derivative distributions06:07
MithrandirKeybuk: no-commercial stuff, for instance?06:07
mdz_if they know that something came from Debian main, they don't need to be concerned about the license06:07
elmosabdfl: yeah, but it's really harsh taking 9000 packages of free software and hiding 100 packages of very non-free software in there06:07
elmosabdfl: debian doesn't do a good job of checking licenses - expecting users too, is just, well harsh06:07
mdz_we'd be mixing things in Debian main with non-free stuff, forcing them to review the licenses individually06:07
MithrandirKeybuk: some commercial apps, like opera would be interesting (to me)06:07
sabdflMithrandir: i've asked elmo to look into opera in universe06:08
sabdflelmo: 9x% of users, given the choice to add non-free during install, say yes06:08
mdz_limi will be pleased :-)06:08
Mithrandirsabdfl: it's non-redistributable atm, afaik.  they promised to fix it a few years back, but I figure I need to kick some butt.06:08
elmokeybuk: mark's said we can ship anything that is distributable (even if it's "non-commercial only") and not likely to invoke DMCA type lawyer/police visits06:08
sabdflnot "ship" on the cd06:09
elmoerr, sorry06:09
elmos/ship/add to universe/06:09
sabdflbut certainly make accessible via universe, for people who want it06:09
mdz_elmo: and also doesn't contaminate other software we distribute (i.e., java)06:09
elmomdz: right, that too06:09
sabdflthe idea is simply to get rid of all the "go over there, add this line to that file, then compile that bit of code...." hoops06:09
elmosabdfl: I don't think we should ignore the x% of users who _do_ actually care about freeness just because they're a minority tho06:10
sabdflmdz_: my reading of the java licence is not that it contaminates other java implementations, but just that those have to be clearly labeled as replacing bits of java06:10
Keybukis there going to be a contrib-alike "depends may not be complete" loop-hole, or do we want supported+universe to be depends-complete ?06:10
sabdflthere are a ton of warnings when you add universe to your sources list, for them specifically06:10
sabdflKeybuk: depends-complete06:11
sabdflerm, actually, i don't know what i'm talking about there06:11
elmodude, you told me to import contrib, it can never be depends-complete if we do that06:11
mdz_contrib is permitted to depend on things that aren't packaged at all06:11
Keybuksabdfl: packages in Debian contrib are allowed to depend on packages that don't exist06:11
sabdflexactly. i don't know what i'm talking about there :-)06:11
mdz_or which are randomly downloaded from the Internet06:11
sabdflwe should include the "randomly downloaded" stuff in universe too, if we can06:12
mdz_elmo: did Debian ever get an official-ish opinion on the java license?06:12
Mithrandirsabdfl: I'm a bit wary of this -- it'll make universe include all kinds of _completely_ not-quality-controlled crap.. people treat it as "ok, not supported, but at least it's done by DDs so it might be decent" today.06:13
elmosabdfl: I think you're conflating stuff.. the warnings are primarily there because the software is unsupported.. we're going to have to check the license on stuff we import that isn't from debian/main anyway, so we'll know which is free and which isn't. if we choose not to separate them out, it's not because it costs us anything to do so 06:13
elmomdz: official from who?  AFAIC, the ftp-master position was that it was indistributable in non-free, and we invited -legal to tell us otherwise and they didn't06:14
sabdflMithrandir: most people will only install something from there that they are explicitly looking for. if they are explicitly looking for it, they will install it wherever they find it06:14
mdz_Mithrandir: true, currently people moving from Debian see it that way, as a sort of compatibility layer06:14
elmothere's also the issue of derivtatives, it's not just users06:14
mdz_elmo: official-ish as in consensus from people who enjoy arguing about licenses (i.e., debian-legal)06:14
Kamionyeah, if we want to do something like gnubuntu, it'll be a real issue06:15
sabdfli'm committed to making it obvious that installing software from universe is well labelled as "scary"06:15
sabdflbut then making it easy for people to do that if they want06:15
Kamionalthough they may want to audit licences themselves anyway06:15
Kamionif we could avoid throwing away the information about the origin component in Debian, that might help06:15
elmomdz: I REJECTed it, asked for follow ups to legal - no clear consensus emerged to dispute the contamination issues, AFIACR06:15
Mithrandirwe have a few issues here -- we have the free-vs-non-free argument, and we have the "put random stuff downloaded off the net" discussion06:16
Mithrandirshould we do one at a time?06:16
mdz_I don't think the latter is much of an issue at this point06:17
Kamionelmo: is there any way we can have Debian-Section: or something in the Packages files?06:17
Kamionelmo: that way, we can rearrange ourselves as we see fit without throwing away the information06:17
Mithrandirmost users don't give a shit about licenses -- derivatives will, to a lesser or bigger degree.06:17
KeybukKamion: or some kind of origin field in general?06:18
mdz_free-vs-non-free is an issue for philosophers and derivatives06:18
Kamionand derivatives will be quite happy wandering about through the Packages files06:18
mdz_the question is, how much work are we willing to do in order to make life easier for those two groups?06:18
mdz_I think that a marker to say where the package came from, as Kamion is suggesting, is about the right amount06:18
Kamionmdz_: we==Canonical are doing a hell of a lot of work to make life easier for derivatives :-)06:18
mdz_Kamion: on the specific issue of licensing :-)06:18
Mithrandirthrowing away information is silly, but if we can preserve it like Kamion suggests, it sounds good to me06:19
sabdflwe can stick some of that stuff in the launchpad database, which would make it possible for the derivatives to use it in the same interface where they are selecting packages anyway06:19
mdz_don't we already preserve the Section: from Debian?06:19
sabdflall of that stuff, actually :-)06:19
KeybukI guess we need to keep track of where we get $random debs from anyway, to get the newer versions06:20
elmomdz: usually but not always - I override them sometimes, e.g. nothing in universe is >> optional06:20
Mithrandirelmo: er, section != priority?06:20
sabdfli don't want to add any work to the archive structure and files, that's a next-gen archive problem06:20
elmothat's priority, actually, but you get the idea, i.e. that we have our own overrides which are seeded from debian's06:20
Kamionmdz_: I think the part before the / needs to be squashed ...?06:20
mdz_Kamion: doesn't it stick around in the .deb?06:20
mdz_and the .dsc06:21
sabdfli'll agree that we'll capture this stuff in launchpad, where it can be part of the automatic filtering of packages06:21
Mithrandirmdz_: it is in the debian/control file at least.06:21
Kamionmdz_: hm, true, assuming that the original .deb's section was right06:21
Kamionalthough you have to get at least contrib/non-free right, I guess06:21
sabdfl"don't show me packages that have licence XYZ"06:21
elmokamion: for Debian it has to be - debian doesn't have component overriding06:21
mdz_Kamion: I would at least hope that the original .dsc section is correct with respect to main/non-free/contrib06:21
Kamionelmo,mdz: yeah, brain just catching up with fingers06:21
elmosabdfl: or more likely "don't show me non-free software" :-P [hell, that should be the default IMO] 06:22
Keybukelmo: do you get to save your particular non-free religion in a cookie to do that? {ducks}06:22
mdz_ok, so if we're doing it fancy for the next-gen stuff, the question would seem to be, what can we do today in order to make it easy to seed that data when it's ready?06:23
sabdflmdz, we'll capture it in launchpad, then discuss for next-gen-archive06:23
elmoat the very _least_ we should override the section to be universe/non-free06:23
Keybukmdz_: stick a field in the database and record where we get things from?  "origin = debian non-free" or something06:23
mdz_Keybuk: the existing database?06:23
Keybukelmo: that makes some sense too06:23
elmosabdfl: we really shouldn't just put this all off till next-gen - we have to redo our archive anyway for universe, things like adding another section is mickey mouse06:24
mdz_sabdfl: is launchpad ready to receive it?06:24
Keybukmdz_: if it's no real work to capture it in both launchpad and katie, let's do that?06:24
sabdflno, i really DON'T want us to be clasifying this stuff. if we do it, we have to do it totally for everything, and that's going to require non-scalable review processes06:24
sabdflmdz_: no06:25
mdz_sabdfl: the sort of classification being diiscussed was a "where this came from", which is no work for us because we already know06:25
mdz_i.e., Debian main, Debian contrib, Debian non-free, and "other"06:25
elmosabdfl: dude, I can not sanely import non-free/*, there _is_ going to be software in there that says "only Debian may redistribute" this06:25
elmosorry, "Debian and it's mirrors"06:25
mdz_aren't we a de facto Debian mirror? :-)06:26
elmonot when we do 1.0-2ubuntu1 uploads :-P06:26
sabdflwe have to store that somewhere on our side for ongoing syncing purposes anyway, there is no need to stick it in the archive06:26
Keybukmdz_: dodgy, decididly06:26
mdz_so, the needs of derivatives are expected to be met by the launchpad db06:27
mdz_what about the philosophers?06:28
mdz_they want that information now, while derivatives can wait06:28
elmo"philosophers" pfft06:28
elmoguys, it's not being a philosophers to not want to unwittingly install some "no commercial" use software at work06:28
sabdflthe philosophers have the following information: YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. now philosophize.06:28
elmosabdfl: due respect, that's crap06:29
mdz_that's a big step down from Debian06:29
mdz_especially for the server market06:29
sabdflmdz_: it's a different approach. why is the server market different?06:29
elmobecause home users aren't affected by "no commercial use" clauses06:29
mdz_sabdfl: today, I can put Debian on a corporate box, and know that anything I can intsall I am legally allowed to use06:30
sabdflsame with ubuntu. if you dip into universe, you need to check the licence of anything you install.06:30
Kamionthis would basically make universe totally useless for anyone except home users06:30
Kamionother people aren't likely to have time to check the licences06:31
mdz_sabdfl: the difference is that Debian has everything you could possibly want on a server06:31
mdz_sabdfl: while ubuntu doesn't, not by a long shot06:31
mdz_you don't need to dip outside Debian06:31
elmosabdfl: dude, no one (not even us) is going to run just 'main' on their servers06:31
mdz_every server has its dirty laundry :-)06:31
elmowhy on earth should we actively make things hard for people, when we already know whether a piece of software is free or not?06:32
sabdflbecause if we say some things are non-free, and some aren't, we expose ourselves to risks in other regards06:32
Keybuksabdfl: in what way?06:32
mdz_which is why I couched it in terms of origin, rather than licensing06:33
sabdflwhat about universe/known-free and universe/black-hole06:33
mdz_if we record where it came from, we're providing almost all the information the user needs, without making a licensing decision06:33
elmowhat about universe/debian-main, universe-REALLY-fucking-scary ? :P06:33
Kamionand we can do 'Origin => Marillat', which is the sort of thing some people may be interested in anyway06:34
sabdflKeybuk: someone might argue that we are recommending things to people based on that classification06:34
sabdflwhich is why i prefer NO classification06:34
Kamionsabdfl: it's not a classification, it's informational06:34
sabdflmdz_: so LA06:34
sabdflKamion: so is the label on herbal tea, and that can get you sued06:34
Kamionthe reason it isn't a classification is because the packages aren't segregated on that basis06:34
Keybuksabdfl: is that inherently much different to the nv driver being in main and the nvidia being in restricted?06:34
mdz_sabdfl: how about we mark things which came from Debian main with an Origin: tag06:35
sabdflbut there we have done a really thorough job of the analysis.06:35
mdz_sabdfl: and simply omit that tag from everything else06:35
Kamionsabdfl: if something's going to be getting us sued based on what random fields we put next to it in a Packages file, we should be running away from it, not distributing it06:35
sabdfland I don't WANT to do a really thorough job on some of the stuff that I want in universe06:35
Keybuksabdfl: yeah, I guess ... simply saying where it came from doesn't have that problem though?  "Origin: debian contrib" for example?06:35
Kamionthat's a quotation more than a classification06:36
mdz_it wouldn't be necessary, except that it's not particularly easy to determine from the package itself whether or not it came from Debian06:36
mdz_or even possible06:37
mdz_sabdfl: does a Debian/non-Debian distinction give you any bad feelings?06:37
sabdflmdz_: yes, i'd prefer "known-free" and "something else"06:38
elmoknown-free is just as dangerous liability-wise06:38
mdz_sabdfl: how about if known-free happens to contain only stuff from Debian main?06:38
elmoif Debian screws up (and it does - a lot) we're in the same boat06:38
elmoif you're worried about liability, Debian-main/everything-else are better IMHO06:39
sabdflmdz_: it will end up carrying more than that, inevitably06:39
sabdflwe will end up with potentially a lot more software in universe than in all of debian06:39
mdz_sabdfl: it will only carry more than that if we are reviewing licenses of things going into universe06:39
mdz_sabdfl: which we won't(?)06:40
elmoerr, we so will06:40
elmoguys, there's 178 packages in non-free06:40
elmoit'll take me like an hour or two at most to check those licenses, and I think it'd be unutterably insane to not do so06:40
elmothere's avoiding liability and then there's gross negligence06:40
Kamiona lot more in universe than in all of debian? it'll take even a crack team of packagers performing no QA at all quite a while to get that far06:41
KamionI can see a few special cases, but it seems we should be encouraging free software wherever possible, so there's no reason why the bulk of things shouldn't be in Debian too06:42
mdz_what if we lump everything together06:45
mdz_and some random schmo on the Internet publishes a web page with a list of what he thinks is free and what isn't06:45
sabdflmdz_: we'll do some internal review, but the less we advertise and make claims about what's there, the better06:46
sabdflelmo: of course i am happy for that review to happen, so we can find any real problems and weed them out06:46
mdz_sabdfl: agreed06:47
mdz_sabdfl: someone from the free software community could do such a classification, independently, though06:47
sabdfland we can put a very rich classification into launchpad, to make it easy for derivatives06:48
mdz_which I think would meet the needs of the zeal^Wphilos^Wfreedom fighters06:48
mdz_sabdfl: won't the rich classification in launchpad have the same issues?06:48
sabdfli'd prefer "known-free" and "unknown", where in launchpad, unknown trivially lets you read the licence and decide for yourself whether to include that package in your derivative06:49
sabdfli do see the point in "known-free" for 90% of the no-brainer cases out there06:49
sabdflis the text in sources.list suitably scary?06:50
elmoit needs to be FIGLET scary06:50
mdz_## Uncomment the following two lines to fetch updated software from the network06:50
mdz_## and be able to use more than 12000 unsupported packages from the universe archive.06:50
sabdflmy install must be old, there's nothing there at all06:50
mdz_it sounds almost tempting06:51
sabdfleek, that sounds ENCOURAGED06:51
sabdflit should be something like:06:51
mdz_sabdfl: I have patches from mvo to add scary warnings to synaptic06:51
elmowhat about dselect/aptitude?06:51
elmoor even apt it self?06:51
mdz_elmo: comments in sources.list06:51
elmolet's offer a bounty to the maintainer of apt!06:51
sabdfl# uncomment the following line to add software from the "universe" repository.06:51
elmomdz: that's it ???06:52
mdz_elmo: oh, you mean when installing stuff06:52
mdz_that's so Hoary06:52
sabdfl# NB software from this repository is ENTIRELY UNSUPPORTED by the Ubuntu team06:52
elmoI'm going to populate hoary soon, and you guys will have to starty saying "that's so Perky" :-P06:52
KeybukFor following NEWS universe packages WHICH ARE ENTIRELY UNSUPPORTED YOU FOOL will be installed:06:52
mdz_elmo: you're bluffing06:52
Keybukelmo: grumpy06:52
Keybukhmm @ auto-typing06:53
Mithrandirsabdfl: "they are not supported in any way, including security updates"06:53
sabdfl# and may also not be under a free licence. Please satisfy yourself as to06:53
Kamionsabdfl: if you could file a base-config bug with the text you want, that'd be good ...06:53
Mithrandirbut scarier.06:53
sladenhttp:/.../ universe non-free non-commerical java distributable ?06:54
sabdfl# to your rights to use the software. Also, please note that software in universe06:54
mdz_(transcribing this into a bug report btw)06:54
sabdfl# WILL NOT receive any review and updates from the Ubuntu security team.06:54
sabdflhow's that sound?06:54
mdz_and I'm happy06:54
Mithrandirsabdfl: I would have it even scarier, if possible.06:55
sabdflKamion: i'll file a bug on base-config06:55
mdz_is "under a free licence" sufficiently descriptive?06:55
Kamionsabdfl: thanks06:55
mdz_sabdfl: I already filed one06:55
Mithrandirand synaptic needs to pop that up before letting you enable the component06:55
sabdflMithrandir: agreed06:56
elmois synaptic what you get when you use the menus in gnome?06:56
sabdflreally, we are saying "adults only"06:56
sabdflelmo: yes06:56
mdz_Keybuk: we'll have the infrastructure for that stuff in apt/aptitude/etc. in Hoary06:57
sabdflnew school, kinda06:57
Kamionnote that we aren't localizing that text in any way06:57
sabdflsynaptic will also show ALL universe packages with a clear label (skull and crossbones, i think, was mvo's choice)06:57
Kamionthat's so NOTWARTY it's untrue, though06:57
elmo?? "get your warez" here?  that's not very _discouraging_ to most people :p06:58
sabdflwe didn't manage to get the aptitude guy interested in being able to set a colour based on component though06:58
sabdflnow let's be bold about what goes into universe06:59
mdz_ok, so the resolution on classification was known-free and "other"?07:00
mdz_and we'll update the comments in the default sources.list07:00
mdz_and bring in the patches to synaptic with the same text07:00
mdz_and also (in synaptic) the supported/unsupported classification in the UI07:01
Keybuksounds reasonable to me07:01
mdz_one hour, one agenda item down :-)07:01
elmoso, hang on, sorry, am I not even mutilating the section now?07:01
mdz_elmo: implementation details :-P07:02
mdz_section? origin?07:02
mdz_section seems appropriate07:03
mdz_since it's _completely useless_ for anything else07:03
sabdflso universe/free and universe/other?07:03
sabdflor universe/free and universe/unknown?07:03
mdz_unknown > other07:04
Kamionthat's gonna make everything show up in one humungous list in synaptic07:04
mdz_Debian sections are not useful for finding software07:04
Kamionit won't even be categorized to the fairly minimal extent it is in Debian, and we don't have debtags yet07:04
sabdflplease can the standard line just be "universe" and let the philosophers use the free/unknown filter07:04
mdz_sabdfl: yes, I don't think the line in sources.list needs to change at all07:05
sabdflKamion: universe isn't designed to be useful for substantial package selection07:05
Kamionthe section pretty much has to be universe/something I think07:05
mdz_"something' being the original Debian section07:05
Kamionmdz_: that's the current state07:05
sabdflso where's the "free" indicator go, for those that want it?07:06
mdz_admin base comm devel doc editors electronics embedded games gnome graphics hamradio interpreters kde libdevel libs mail math misc net news oldlibs otherosfs perl python science shells sound tex text utils web x11 07:06
Kamionmdz_: more useful than one huge list07:06
Kamionit's certainly not very good, but it's better than the absence07:07
mdz_is there any point in having the freeness indicator in the archive?07:07
mdz_I don't think we have any package management UI in Ubuntu which lets you wear freeness blinders based on anything but sources.list07:08
mdz_so it'd be purely informational anyway07:08
mdz_X-Ubuntu-Known-Free: yes07:08
Keybukmdz_: the only thing would be the Section ... at least that shows up in the UI07:09
elmoyes, AFAICS, we have 3 choices: (a) split universe into universe-known-free and universe-universe, (b) abuse Section, (c) add some random meta-data tag07:09
mdz_so is the freeness classification worth giving up the benefits of sections, however marginal?07:10
elmomark hates (a), (b) and (c) are kind of useless, (b) being marginally less so07:10
mdz_"what's the use case?"07:10
elmoonly (a) would come close to actually helping any poor sod who wants to use ubuntu in a commercial environment07:10
mdz_if it's "I only want free software on my computer"07:10
mdz_then none of those except (a) actually do anything07:10
elmothat's not true07:10
elmo(b) helps if you don't use apt-get directly07:10
sabdflelmo: how would they enforce that, would they use archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu warty universe/free ?07:11
mdz_(b) helps if you never ever use the command line07:11
elmosabdfl: no, unfortunately, the only way to make it sources.list based is option (a)07:11
elmosources.list/apt-get has no concept of sections, only components07:11
Kamionelmo: components can't be multi-level?07:12
KeybukKamion: not in sources.list ... apt doesn't filter07:12
elmoerr.. well, I dunno, to be honest.. I suppose katie could - would they work with apt07:12
mdz_universe/free, you mean?07:12
Kamionit'd have to be hyphen rather than slash if you wanted it to be sources.list based then07:12
mdz_stable/non-US works fine07:12
Keybukmdz_: but if you put just "stable", you don't get "stable/non-US"07:13
mdz_Keybuk: right07:13
mdz_if we switch to that, we need to convert everyone's sources.list07:13
mdz_which is not out of the question, if it's the right solution otherwise07:13
Keybukso the question really does come, do we want users to be able to select in their sources.list to only get known-free universe packages? yes/no?07:14
sabdflyes, that's the only point i can see to making the distinction in the archive not in launchpad07:15
Keybukelmo: is it possible for a package to be simultaneously in two or more sections?07:15
Keybukcomponents, sorry07:15
sabdflis there another place we can put a flag that will be displayed in aptitude and synaptic?07:16
elmokeybuk: package/version/arch tuple?  no07:16
=== yuran [~anon@line134-238.adsl.actcom.co.il] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
elmokeybuk: package, yes07:16
elmoacross releases, for example07:16
mdz_there's currently noplace we can put a flag which will be visible across all apt frontends07:17
Keybukok, so if we do it in sources.list we're looking at splitting universe into universe and universe-maybe-not-free/multiverse/whatever?  there's no other way to do that?07:17
mdz_if we want to support a useful freeness distinction for the user in universe, it needs to be at the sources.list level07:17
sabdfluniverse and blackhole07:17
sabdflforget it, this is the mess i was trying to avoid :-)07:17
sabdfl(and yes, i know it means there's a whole other kind of mess :-)07:18
Keybukelmo: any suggestions?07:19
mdz_we provide a freeness distinction within our supported set07:19
sabdflhow much work would it be to add a header item to the packages file which is displayed in both aptitude and synaptic when you view the package detail?07:20
elmoKeybuk: not really?  there is only really creating a separate component available to us as an option at this point in time.. and if sabdfl doesn't want to do to that07:20
sabdflFree-Software: Confirmed07:20
Keybukelmo: having a magic universe-known-free subset component isn't possible?07:21
sladenIf a package is non-free/non-commerical, I'd prefer if dpkg/apt didn't even know about it;  ...rather than having to get them to filter it out.07:21
mdz_sladen: the answer would be, "then don't use universe"07:22
elmokeybuk: how is a "magic subset" component different from a simply separate component07:23
mdz_Debian is in the business of collecting gobs of software and dividing it into free and not free07:23
mdz_Ubuntu is in the business of collecting gobs of software and dividing it into supported-free, supported-non-free, and unsupported07:23
mdz_that's how it stands today07:23
mdz_if our supported set expands to contain a reasonably complete subset of useful software, the distinction becomes less important07:24
mdz_but as it stands, Ubuntu supported << Debian main07:24
Keybukyeah, we could possibly add a universe note that if people are continually installing things from universe to discuss with us about making them supported.07:25
Keybukwe may have missed something glaringly obvious07:25
mdz_Keybuk: making popularity-contest work would be a good start07:25
mdz_been meaning to file a bug about that07:25
sabdflmy hope is that derivatives will commit to getting stuff that is in universe, that is important to them, supported to the level we require for inclusion in main07:28
mdz_Keybuk: it's certain that we've missed some glaringly obvious things; a few have come up already07:28
sabdflthen, as mdz points out, main expands to be more useful07:28
mdz_if we get to a point where most people can use only supported software, then that will satisfy those who want the distinction as well07:29
mdz_they could remove 'restricted'07:29
mdz_RMS will never be happy with it07:29
mdz_but that's almost a given07:30
Keybukdid you read his correspondance with Jeff?  He was actually quite civil07:30
mdz_I blacked out at "GNU slash Linux..."07:32
mdz_anyway, there is a decision on the table about whether to subdivide universe07:32
mdz_at least, whether to subdivide universe today07:32
sabdfljust to clarify, the old division that makes sense, if we do it, is two components07:33
KeybukI don't think we can do it in a useful way today, by the sounds of it07:33
sabdfl"universe" and "multiverse"07:33
Keybuknot without two components anyway07:34
elmowhat the heck's multiverse?07:34
sabdflelmo: non-free universe07:34
mdz_given the lack of a straightforward solution, and hazy user need, I think we can safely defer the decision until post-Warty07:34
mdz_if we want, we can set up the Hoary archive differently07:34
mdz_can we not?07:34
elmowhat's not straightforward about two components?07:35
sabdflthen the apt/sources.list can at least contain meaningful options w.r.t. known-free stuff07:35
elmoif we don't want to do it, fine, but let's at least just say that07:35
sabdflelmo: is two components going to take more than an extra day to arrange?07:36
mdz_what would we call the components?07:36
sabdfluniverse and multiverse07:36
mdz_by definition there can only be one universe07:36
elmosabdfl: no, not at all, it's just a change in the planto import non-free07:36
mdz_multiverse doesn't tell the user anything about what they're asking for07:37
mdz_universe-known-free and universe-somethingelse would be my preference07:37
sabdflmdz_: i'm expressly trying to avoid warranties in this regard07:37
mdz_sabdfl: known-free was what you said you preferred07:38
sabdfli really think that text should still say "be an adult and check this stuff for yourself"07:38
sabdfli prefer known-free to non-free, since known-free is easier to assure07:38
mdz_what I suggested was Debian/non-Debian, which at the same time says nothing explicitly about freeness whatsoever, and provides the same utility for people who expect it from Debian07:39
mdz_which is trivial to assure07:39
mdz_but, I suppose, that's not useful in a sources.list context because it's tied to Debian07:39
elmouniverse, universe-non-debian ?07:40
sabdflno, i don't want to have a component based on source07:40
sabdflorigin, sorry07:40
Keybukuniverse-unchecked ?07:40
sabdfluniverse and multiverse. the sources.list text can do the explaining07:41
sabdfli *really* prefer just universe, but let's get a sense of opinions07:42
elmofrom where/how?07:42
sabdfltechnically, this is just about mdz, keybuk and me, buti'd like to hear from others07:42
sabdfl(a) just universe07:42
sabdfl(b) universe and multiverse07:42
Mithrandirmultiverse is "possibly and surely non-free"?07:43
sabdflwhat else?07:43
mdz_(c) sections07:43
sabdflMithrandir: yes07:43
MithrandirI'd like b) to happen07:43
sabdflKeybuk: 07:44
elmoI [obviously]  vote (b), for whatever that's worth07:44
Keybukb, I think07:44
mdz_(b) is OK with me, except for the multiverse name07:44
elmomdz: is it really any worse than "universe"? 07:45
mdz_elmo: universe and multiverse side-by-side? yes, absolutely worse07:45
npmccallumthe two do seem entirely ambiguous07:45
mdz_I think that universe-foo and universe-bar would be clearer07:46
mdz_but once a universe is subdivided, it's not a universe anymore :-)07:46
elmothat's why multiverse is so cute07:46
mdz_anyway, my argument is semantic; I don't have any problems with the component implementation of the distinction07:46
sabdfli think the answer is that universe is "unsupported", period07:47
sabdfllaunchpad can have exact licence terms07:47
Mithrandirmdz_: agree, we can use pwgen-based names for all I care. ;)07:47
mdz_as I mentioned before, launchpad answers the needs of derivative distributions, but not of users, at least not directly07:48
mdz_but I suppose someone could then create a "frubuntu"07:48
mdz_and go about classifying all the software there07:48
elmo[are planning on supporting dervitatives who want to dervive "all of universe"? ] 07:49
mdz_and they could call it "Frubuntu GNU/Linux", and maybe it really _would_ be possible to please everyone07:49
mdz_elmo: derivatives should be able to select any packages they want from universe, up to and including all of it, no?07:49
sabdflelmo: sure07:50
mdzthat lets us leave universe alone for Warty, and also lets someone else do the work of classifying licenses07:51
mdzand leaves room for more than one group of users to make their own classifications07:51
elmothey can do that regardless of what we do07:51
mdz(d) consider this a use case for a derived distribution07:51
mdz(and not for Ubuntu itself)07:52
sabdfli can live with (b)07:53
sabdfli think it's simpler to go with (a) for warty and review for hoary07:53
Keybukyeah, I'm happy with that07:54
sabdflKeybuk: which?07:54
mdzit all depends on what fraction of the Debian community considers the freeness bit important to them07:54
mdzthat subset won't look twice at Ubuntu if it doesn't have a distinction07:54
Keybuksabdfl: I prefer b, but would be happy with a07:55
mdzbut, I suppose we have a partial answer in main/restricted07:55
mdzso a secondary decision is whether or not to do anything about the issue _for Warty_07:56
sabdflmdz: i think everyone considers it important07:56
elmoI do think there's community backlack potential when we ship the 178 non-free packages from Debian in 'universe'.. mitigated maybe by a promise to review it for hoary.. *shrug*07:56
sabdflmdz: let's go with b, and just do the work to get the apt sources.list text right07:56
Mithrandirsabdfl: as well as fixing synaptic. :)07:57
=== Mithrandir nags a bit
sabdfli think it's an unnecessary risk07:57
mdzelmo says it's no more work, but if the list of elmo's tasks in my head is half as long as the complete one...07:57
mdzelmo: speaking of which, remind me later to nag you about access to buildd logs07:57
elmoremind you to nag me to do stuff I haven't done yet?  yeah, 'cos _that's_ going to happen :-P07:58
elmo(but yes, I know)07:58
sabdflso let's move on guys, time is limited07:59
mdzso the consensus is that elmo should carry out (b)07:59
sabdflyes please08:00
mdzok, moving on then08:00
sabdflquestion: what are the criteria for "universe"? everything else is in "multiverse"?08:00
mdzshould be the same criteria as for main vs. restricted08:00
mdzor, main and not-main08:00
Keybuksabdfl: universe is known to be free, I guess08:01
elmowhat about contrib?08:01
sabdflyes but how do you define free? dfsg? rms?08:01
elmosabdfl: ours08:01
elmoit's our universe, damn it ;-)08:01
Keybukdidn't we have our own guidelines for that?08:01
Keybuksame as supported, I'd say08:01
sabdflok, moving along08:01
Keybukuniverse is free enough for us, just as supported is ... people with stricter requirements make a perfect derivative distro08:02
mdzthe ESD issue, I think, was _mostly_ resolved in bugzilla overnight08:02
Keybukmdz: bug#?08:02
mdzwe should move everything to ESD, except for things which don't support it, and those things just suffer08:02
Keybukthe totem/gstreamer thing?08:02
mdzgnomemeeting was pointed out as an app which doesn't support esd08:02
elmosorry, -ECONTEXT, why do we want to use ESD?08:03
sladenesddsp 08:03
mdzelmo: #148108:03
Keybukelmo: most alsa drivers don't allow concurrent access to /dev/dsp08:03
mdzas a means to share the audio device08:03
Keybukif you have sound events on, esd hogs /dev/dsp08:03
sabdflis there a sense of momentum in the sound community on this issue?08:04
sabdflif the world+dog are moving to ALSA-native, we should not go in the other direction08:04
mdzI think the momentum is in favour of sound hardware which can do mixing on its own, but it's not widespread yet08:04
mdzit's a hardware issue that needs a software solution08:05
sabdflhardly seems fair to require hardware changes08:05
mdzI don't think that ALSA-native buys us anything over OSS-ALSA in this case08:05
Mithrandiross-alsa is actually a fairly nice solution, IME.08:05
Keybuksabdfl: I think you get the same problem alsa-native anyway08:05
MithrandirKeybuk: that depends on your hardware.08:06
Keybukesd sounds like a reasonably warty solution to me; it may be worth getting someone to talk to (e.g.) the Fluendo guys on the hoary timeframe to see if there's a "better way" ?08:06
mdzthere are some vague rumblings about libasound doing software mixing, but I can't see how it could be implemente dalready08:06
Mithrandirmdz: it's also rumored to suck badly08:06
sladenmdz: (Its ugly), but have gnomemeeting depend on esound-clients and  wrap gnomemeeting with   esddsp gnomemeeting08:06
KeybukMithrandir: certainly I get the same problem with alsa-native on my desktop ... but don't get either problem on my laptop :(08:06
seb128GNOME guys would like to kill esd I think08:06
mdzit would require some IPC facility which doesn't exist08:06
mdzesd can't die until something replaces it, though08:07
MithrandirKeybuk: my desktop has a decent sound card; I have hardware mixing on all my desktops, but not my laptop, I think.08:07
mdzsoftware mixing in kernelspace sounds unlikely to happen08:07
mdzso when it is re-solved in userspace, it will probably be via the alsa API08:07
mdzpeople who have hardware mixing aren't hurt by ESD08:08
mdzand it helps people who don't08:08
mdzmy laptop seems to have hardware mixing08:08
mdzat least, it allows multiple opens of /dev/dsp08:08
elmomdz: that's not true, esd does interesting things to my desktop machine08:08
=== sladen also has to run ESD on his laptop since the audio hardware can /only/ do 44100Hz, so have to use esd to do resampling
mdzelmo: such as what?08:08
seb128the problem is that esd is not really in a good state and not really maintained08:09
elmomdz: hmm, it's been a while since I stopped using it.. but initially, I think it just didn't work at all.. even after Ryan hacked around that, it would hang on signficant load08:09
Mithrandirseb128: got a better suggestion?08:09
mdzseb128: what is upstream's recommendation?08:10
seb128no, we are stucked with it for the moment ...08:10
mdzok, so we have no choice.  sounds like we don't need to take an explicit decision08:10
sabdfldone. next.08:10
seb128mdz: keep using esd for the moment since there is nothing else in this area08:10
mdza more pressing issue is what to do about the effect that the automounting magic has had on desktop usability08:10
seb128if you want to have sound events08:10
mdzand our other desktop changes08:10
seb128but I think that most of the GNOME guys just don't use sound events08:10
mdzthere is a usability issue in that users have no discoverable way to unmount things which get automounted08:11
mdzand there is a functionality issue in that it interferes with CD burning08:11
mdzthe former issue arose because we removed the volume icons on the desktop without providing a replacement08:11
sabdflguys i have to step away at this point, please send me the logs08:12
mdzsabdfl: before you go, your opinion for the record on restoring the volume icons on the desktop when things are automounted?08:12
mdzthat is by far the simplest solution08:13
mdzok, guess I missed him08:13
=== empop [~empop@dhcp-254-48-227.rr.ohio-state.edu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
mdzother opinions?08:14
Keybuktricky ... we seem to be getting positive feedback for not having the desktop icons ... but I do feel we need some immediate visual indication somewhere on screen that there's a CD mounted08:14
mdzthe consensus long-term solution in Oxford was to have a tray icon08:14
mdzbut unless someone can build that and have it stable for Warty final, we need an interim solution08:15
mdz(tray icon? notification icon? whatever they're called)08:15
Keybukon a three week timescale?  I don't think that's doable :(08:15
npmccallummdz: it won't be able to be stable by final08:15
seb128no, that's not08:15
Keybukmdz: "applets" if you listen to Novell <g>08:15
mdzany proposals other than restoring the volume icons?08:15
seb128no ...08:16
mdzauto-unmounting when nautilus is closed?08:16
mdzmenu item in nautilus window?08:16
npmccallumtoo risky at this stage08:16
npmccallum(the first one that is)08:16
seb128menu item no08:17
Keybuknot enough testing :-/  stuff like that needed to be done by freeze to get enough wide-testing for warty08:17
mdzthing is, I think if sabdfl were here, he would veto the icons08:17
KamionI'm not sure auto-unmounting is very good UI either08:18
seb128if somebody has idea for the umount when all the windows are closed ...08:18
KeybukKamion: mounting/unmounting in *general* is not good UI :-(08:18
mdzKamion: agreed, it makes for an awkward transition to the long-term solution too08:18
Kamionseb128: that would only be good UI if there were a discoverable way to mount it again without having to eject/reinsert08:18
sladenvolume items on the desktop---for automounted items only---seems logical for me as a user;  and sensibile given the time constaints and having already been tested08:18
seb128Kamion: true08:18
mdzconsensus, given release constraints, is that the icons need to come back08:19
KeybukKamion: indeed, it would need to be unmount & eject for CDs08:19
mdzbut we need a fallback position given that sabdfl hasn't spoken on this08:19
Keybukwhich is actually kinda cute <g>  you don't need to unmount usb devices because they can be pulled out manually08:19
seb128just having computer place for this is that bad ?08:19
Keybukbut anyway08:19
mdzand I know he feels strongly about this subject08:19
Keybukseb128: computer/disks is a bit hard to find08:19
mdzseb128: the problem is that users can't find it08:19
mdzbecause there is no indication on the screen when they insert something08:20
seb128write in BIG in the doc :)08:20
Keybukand until you find it, you really can't eject a CD08:20
mdzthere is nothing to lead them there08:20
Keybukseb128: who reads them?08:20
mdzand ejecting a CD is a damn common use case :-)08:20
seb128Keybuk: we don't have any good solution ...08:20
Keybukmdz: yeah, I wish Mark hadn't wandered off at this exact point because he does have quite strong ideas about this area :-08:20
seb128so just umount when all the windows are closed08:21
sabdflvoice of sabdfl from a distance.... "can we get them on the desktop for automounted ones only? so nothing there till you automount it..?"08:21
seb128so at least you can eject CD with the button08:21
mdzsabdfl: yes08:21
sabdfli don't know how you eject a cd from windows, without pressing the hardware button08:21
Keybuksabdfl: as I understand it, yes; you'd only see CD/USB devices on the desktop08:21
npmccallumsabdfl: right click, eject08:22
mdzsabdfl: that's precisely what we're proposing08:22
sabdfl"ugly, this is"08:22
mdzempty desktop except when you insert a CD or hotplug something08:22
sabdflhow do you feel about going with that for warty and fix it for panel in hoary?08:23
npmccallummdz: if there is a floppy drive in fstab, I'm pretty sure it will show up on the desktop08:23
mdzthat would be my preference08:23
Keybukyeah, I'd say that's the best we can do08:23
seb128mine too08:23
mdznpmccallum: oh?  we can probably fix that08:23
mdzseb128: what's the gconf magic to turn it on? I'll try right now08:23
Kamionseb128: not to be a powermac weenie, but what button? :)08:23
mdzKamion: the "F12" button08:23
sladennpmccallum: floppy drives are a pain, since on x86 there's no way to get insert/eject notification08:24
Kamionmdz: in theory ...08:24
npmccallumsladen: yes, I hate them08:24
seb128mdz: /apps/nautilus/desktop/volumes_visible08:24
mdzI'm more than happy to hide the floppy away08:24
sabdfli agree on the understanding the desktop is empty on boot, until something is explicitly automounted08:24
npmccallumwe can hide the floppy I'm sure08:24
npmccallumthats a lot less intrusive than the other stuff08:24
seb128yes, should be easy to do08:24
sabdflcheers guys. community council next week.08:24
Keybukhrm, I don't have a floppy icon on my desktop until I mount the floppy08:24
npmccallumKeybuk: is it in fstab?08:24
seb128that's the right behaviour08:25
Keybuknpmccallum: yes08:25
seb128only mounted devices08:25
Keybuk/dev/fd0        /floppy         auto    rw,users,noauto,sync            0 008:25
sladenonly _user_ mounted devices08:25
mdzseb128: I did gconftool-2 --type boolean -s /apps/nautilus/desktop/volumes_visible 108:25
mdzand it doesn' tseem to have had an effect08:25
seb128nautilus manages your desktop ?08:26
mdzstock Warty08:26
Keybukmdz: unless you have something mounted, you shouldn't see anything08:26
mdzKeybuk: I inserted a CD08:26
mdzand nautilus opened with it08:26
mdzbut no icon08:26
sladenmdz: s/1/true/ ?08:26
seb128no, 1 is fine08:27
mdzdo I need to log out or something?08:27
mdzah, there it is08:27
mdzI re-ran it with true08:27
mdzejected, inserted08:27
mdzand there it is08:27
mdzand no floppy08:27
mdzso, let's do that for Warty08:27
mdzseb128: will you take care of it?08:27
npmccallumI already did it08:27
seb128mdz: yes. Could you just open a bug to keep the trace ?08:28
npmccallumjust waiting for upload08:28
seb128oh ok08:28
mdznpmccallum: go ahead, if that's the only change08:28
mdzjust removing the patch from debian/patches, right?08:28
npmccallumedited it -- cut out the section refering to volume icons only08:29
Keybukyeah, it works for me too here; only the mounted stuff shows up, there's no icon for the cd or floppy when not mounted08:29
mdzmoving on, we have the CD burning issue08:29
mdzif you've burned CD-RWs with nautilus in Warty, you know what I'm talking about08:29
Keybukis this issue when you insert a blank CD?  or when you want to write over top of a CD you've just inserted that's got stuff on it?08:30
mdzKeybuk: only when the CD has stuff on it08:30
mdzhence CD-RW08:30
Keybukcan't nautilus' cd burner unmount the thing itself?08:30
mdzyou insert the CD, and it gets mounted and nautilus opens08:30
mdzseb128, npmccallum: ?08:30
Keybukthat seems the most logical ... user-wise you probably *do* want the window open to check you're about to write over the right CD08:31
npmccallumit can unmount it, the problem is it automatically gets mounted again on burn completion (if that is a problem)08:31
Keybukthen when you go to write, the burner app should unmount it08:31
mdzthe other problem is that, even if you unmount it, then it gets mounted again _during_ and after the burning process08:31
mdzat least for me08:31
Keybuknpmccallum: getting unmounted after burning sounds right?  check it burnt ok?08:31
seb128my cd writer is out of order, I've not really played with n-c-b ...08:32
Keybukduring would be broken though?08:32
sladenmdz: unmount + eject08:32
Keybuknpmccallum: does the window pop up after it's finished burning?08:32
mdzideally, it should unmount at start, prevent mountitng during, and eject after08:32
Kamioneven if you *can* unmount it ... last time I tried, I only had an "Eject" entry on the right-click menu, no "Unmount"08:32
npmccallumKeybuk: I believe so08:32
mdzif the user wants to check it, they can close the CD tray08:32
KeybukKamion: eject is friendlier anyway08:32
mdzKamion: my sr0 has an 'unmount'08:32
=== Kamion would also prefer it to eject
mdzand when i unmount, the icon goes away08:33
KamionKeybuk: not if you're trying to burn (say I want to do something strange and therefore want to use cdrecord)08:33
mdzso there's no place for an eject08:33
npmccallumkeeping it from mounting during burn is the bugger08:33
mdzthere is a separate issue of the command line08:33
mdzit is very irritating to mount something on the command-line and have it pop up in nautilus on top of your terminal08:33
KeybukKamion: if you're doing that, I'd expect you'd know to unmount it first08:34
Keybukwhat decisions need to be made here?  before we wander too much08:35
mdzthe decision to be made is what to do about CD burning08:35
mdzbecause that is a real use case which is in bad shape right now08:35
mdz(a) work around it in nautilus-cd-burner as best we can08:35
mdz(b) implement a locking facility in pmount (pitti has written the code for this already)08:36
mdz(c) use locking in HAL, which upstream has in CVS08:36
mdz(b) and (c) are sketchy given the release08:36
Keybukseb128, npmccallum: you're suggestions?08:36
mdzlocking never gets implemented correctly the first time08:36
seb128I can have a look on (a) tomorrow08:37
npmccallumc is out, I don't want to pull cvs in at this point08:37
Keybukthis is an upstream-affecting bug as well?  there's nothing too magic about our g-v-m/nautilus other than we open windows?08:37
npmccallumcould we have whatever calls n-cd-b stop gvm and restart gvm when finished?08:38
npmccallumKeybuk: the open windows is upstream now08:38
seb128sorry guys I've to go now08:38
npmccallumseb128: see ya08:38
Keybukseb128: thanks! have fun08:38
seb128I'll read the log, I can talk with n-c-b upstream about this tomorrow if you want08:39
mdzseb128: I'll assign the bug to you08:39
seb128ok fine08:39
sladennpmccallum: what's the case when another volume is inserted whilst gvm is stoppped?  Would gvm then be out of sync after it's restarted?08:39
seb128good evening guys08:39
npmccallumsladen: it only handles events08:39
KeybukI don't have any major suggestions, I don't own a burner so haven't ever really tried that stuff out and seen the issues :-/08:39
npmccallumsladen: so if gvm is stopped, it won't receive the event08:39
npmccallumsladen: the events aren't cached08:40
Keybukit sounds to me like there's a whole pile of hal "I'm using this" embargo stuff that needs to be done here though08:40
mdzok, the only other thing I had on the agenda is a bit of an excuse to get several people together to talk about what is otherwise not a technical-board-scoped sort of bug08:40
mdzKeybuk: that's happening upstream08:40
mdzanyway, we have a mess with spell checking and dictionary stuff in warty at the moment08:40
mdzspell checking doesn't seem to work in openoffice, evolution and such out of the box08:41
mdzthere are about 40 different spell checking libraries all with their own dictionaries08:41
mdzand we need someone to own that problem and figure out what needs to be done08:41
Keybukspell checking in *general* is a bit of a mess08:41
=== Mithrandir wibbles slightly.
mdzMithrandir: if you want it, I'm more than willing to give it, but it's a bit out of scope08:43
MithrandirI could do it.. I have a bit of experience with it as I maintain the norwegian package in Debian08:43
mdznpmccallum: will you work with Mithrandir on this?08:43
Mithrandirmdz: "want", isn't exactly the word. :P  It's a hairy issue.08:43
npmccallummdz: I have a bunch of bugs right now.  I'm happy to take any patches to ooo, but can't really work on it per se08:44
sladenwhat's the long-term goal here?  Hack the various spelling libraries all to use the same backend database?08:44
mdznpmccallum: currently, you and martin have the fewest RC bugs08:44
sladenor have one database file and transcode that into the format for each library?08:45
mdzlet's not talk about long term just yet :-)08:45
mdzfor Warty, we just need for spell checking to work08:45
Mithrandirsladen: it's fairly easy to generate word lists if you have ispell lists.08:45
Mithrandirfor the different brands of checkers08:45
sladenis the simple answer of just shipping the 20 different libraries and their backends okay.  Might work for English, not sure about others as there is unlikely to be a full set of data files for each library in each language08:46
mdznpmccallum: are you working on issues which you feel are RC but not reflected that way in bugzilla?08:46
npmccallummdz: I have no idea how the spell checking even works, though I can try to learn it08:46
Mithrandirsladen: : tfheen@yiwaz ~ > apt-cache showsrc norwegian | grep ^Binary08:46
MithrandirBinary: inorwegian, myspell-nb, aspell-no, myspell-nn, wnorwegian08:46
mdzI don't think anyone has a handle on it at this point; that's the problem08:47
npmccallummdz: I also have a batch of initscripts which mark found that have to get done (not filed in bugzilla yet)08:47
Kamionthere's the issue of installing the proper set of dictionaries for the selected language, too08:47
mdznpmccallum: please file them08:47
npmccallummdz: will do08:47
mdzKamion: yes, but if we could have english spell checking working, that't be a start08:47
Kamionmdz: right08:47
sladenMithrandir: okay, next question, were you able to automatically generate those (from one source) when you created the packages?08:47
mdzok, not everyone is represented here; we'll take this offline08:48
npmccallummdz: let me get those initscripts whittled down and I'll be glad to work on the dictionary stuff, I just don't want someone else to take if they have the know how and the time08:48
mdzMithrandir: I want someone full-time to work on the issue with you08:48
Mithrandirsladen: yes.  I'm not fucking crazy out of my mind.  Only slightly so.08:48
Mithrandirmdz: ok08:48
mdzany other issues to raise before we close the meeting?08:48
sladenMithrandir: ah ha!  So there's already code to do that?08:48
Mithrandirsladen: 08:48
Mithrandir        cat norsk.mch | ispell -d ./norsk -e | \08:48
Mithrandir        perl -lane 'for (@F) {s/"(.)/$1$1-/g; print; s/($1)$1-/$1/g; print }'|\08:48
Keybukmdz: we're meeting every two weeks at about the same time?08:49
Mithrandir        aspell --local-data-dir=`pwd` --lang=nb create master ./nb.rws08:49
Mithrandir        ( wc -l words.norsk; cat words.norsk ) > nb_NO.mydict08:49
Mithrandir        ispellaff2myspell --charset=latin1 --split=200 --myheader=debian/nb_NO.myheader norsk.aff > nb_NO.myaff08:49
Mithrandirugly but works.08:49
mdzKeybuk: it sounds like we should adjust the time08:49
mdzgiven that Jeff wasn't able to show08:49
mdzbut yes, every two weeks08:49
mdzhopefully most will be shorter than this08:49
Keybukshould we have a mailing list for pre-suggesting stuff, or just stay with a wiki page?08:50
Mithrandirit would be nice if we could schedule them a bit more than ten minutes in advance -- at least that's how I saw it. (Only saw it on IRC)08:50
mdzwiki and/or ubuntu-devel seems fine for now08:50
mdzMithrandir: yes, we'll get into a regular schedule08:50
mdzprobably on the same day and time every two weeks08:50
mdzand announced to ubuntu-devel08:50
Mithrandirshould we have an ubuntu-devel-announce?08:51
mdzubuntu-devel is very low-traffic right now; maybe later08:51
mdzI think it has something to do with the fact that we haven't announced it anywhere except the mailman page ;-)08:51
mdzbut the signal/noise is delicious right now08:52
Keybukheh, I admit that I can't keep up with -users at the moment08:52
mdzKeybuk: yeah, it didn't take long, did it?08:52
mdzit's up to about 200 messages/day already08:52
mdzanyway, meeting adjourned, further chitchat to #ubuntu.*08:52
mdzthanks, everyone08:52
Keybukyay, I can get up off the kitchen floor now and head for the gym <g>08:53
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