[12:01] <elmo> mdz: do you need me to do anything else WRT #1080 or can I remove myself from the Cc list?
[12:02] <mdz> elmo: I think you can safely remove yourself
[12:02] <elmo> hey, has anyone got a smart bookmarks thing for warty BTS?
[12:02] <elmo> mdz: k, thanks 
[12:02] <elmo> [+bye ;)] 
[12:04] <elmo> I don't understand #1561 - it WFM(tm)?
[12:04] <elmo> I mean I can "fix" it, but I'd like to know why it's broken for you guys
[12:04] <Kamion> what would "fixing" involve?
[12:04] <mdz> mizar:[~]  host home.ubuntu.com
[12:04] <mdz> home.ubuntu.com         CNAME   www.no-name-yet.com
[12:04] <mdz> www.no-name-yet.com does not exist, try again
[12:05] <elmo> shiri 23:04 ~ % host home.ubuntu.com
[12:05] <elmo> home.ubuntu.com is an alias for www.no-name-yet.com.
[12:05] <elmo> www.no-name-yet.com has address 82.211.81.132
[12:05] <mdz> mizar:[~]  host www.no-name-yet.com
[12:05] <mdz> www.no-name-yet.com does not exist, try again
[12:05] <elmo> kamion: not CNAME-ing
[12:06] <elmo> titan.is.co.za (196.33.171.36)          www.no-name-yet.com -> 82.211.81.132
[12:06] <elmo> demeter.is.co.za (196.26.5.8)           www.no-name-yet.com -> 82.211.81.132
[12:06] <elmo> jupiter.is.co.za (196.4.160.3)          www.no-name-yet.com -> 82.211.81.132
[12:06] <elmo> all 3 NSes are giving me the right answer?
[12:07] <Mithrandir> don't use host for debugging DNS, use dig. :)
[12:07] <elmo> or 'dnstracer -o'
[12:07] <elmo> [for slightly less "REAL MEN USE CAT < /DEV/AUDIO" maschoism ;-)] 
[12:07] <Mithrandir> heh
[12:08] <Mithrandir> never heard of dnstracer before
[12:08] <elmo> mdz: what's dnstracer/dig saying for you?
[12:09] <mdz> mizar:[~]  host www.no-name-yet.com demeter.is.co.za
[12:09] <mdz> www.no-name-yet.com     A       82.211.81.132
[12:09] <mdz> mizar:[~]  host www.no-name-yet.com jupiter.is.co.za
[12:09] <mdz> www.no-name-yet.com     A       82.211.81.132
[12:09] <mdz> mizar:[~]  host www.no-name-yet.com titan.is.co.za  
[12:09] <mdz> www.no-name-yet.com     A       82.211.81.132
[12:09] <mdz> mizar:[~]  host www.no-name-yet.com
[12:09] <mdz> www.no-name-yet.com does not exist, try again
[12:09] <mdz> what the hell
[12:09] <mdz> elmo: dnstracer is useless, dig gives the same results as host
[12:10] <mdz> hmm
[12:10] <mdz> no-name-yet.com.        4759    IN      SOA     ns0.blackcatnetworks.co.uk. hostmaster.blackcatnetworks.co.uk. 2004081000 21600 7200 604800 86400
[12:10] <mdz> dig returns that for an SOA
[12:10] <elmo> what's useless about dnstracer? *pout*
[12:10] <mdz> should that be ns1.is.co.za?
[12:10] <mdz> rather than ns0.blackcatnetworks.co.uk?
[12:10] <elmo> yeah, it certainly shouldn't be blackcat
[12:10] <mdz> is the domain moving/has it moved recently?
[12:10] <elmo> no, I never bothered
[12:10] <mdz> probably the SOA is still cached
[12:10] <elmo> since we migrated away from it
[12:10] <mdz> and yet they've deleted the zone
[12:11] <mdz> querying the .za servers gives a reasonable SOA
[12:11] <elmo> who's deleted it?
[12:11] <elmo> blackcat have never hosted nny.com
[12:11] <mdz> then where did I get that SOA record from?
[12:12] <mdz> or was that in the zone even though it was served from is.co.za?
[12:13] <elmo> I've no idea where you got it from
[12:15] <elmo> tsig.c:293: REQUIRE(targetp != ((void *)0) && *targetp == ((void *)0)) failed.
[12:15] <elmo> zsh: abort      nsupdate
[12:15] <elmo> rock on
[12:16] <mdz> so canonical.com and ubunutlinux.org are served by blackcatnetworks, and nny by is.co.za?
[12:16] <elmo> yes
[12:16] <elmo> we have dynamic dns setup with blackcat, so all our critical domains are with them
[12:17] <mdz> it's very odd
[12:17] <mdz> <everything else>.no-name-yet.com resolves
[12:17] <mdz> it's specifically www which is fucked
[12:17] <mdz> here's the lovely dnstracer output:
[12:18] <mdz> mizar:[~]  dnstracer -o www.no-name-yet.com 
[12:18] <mdz> Tracing to www.no-name-yet.com via 192.168.0.1, timeout 15 seconds
[12:18] <mdz> 192.168.0.1 (192.168.0.1) 
[12:18] <mdz> which queries my local DNS server and then quits
[12:18] <elmo> oh, that's interestingly broken
[12:18] <elmo> anyway, it could be that I broke the CNAME of home.ubuntu.com but since 'update delete' is broken.. well I'm a little stuck
[12:18] <mdz> it does the same with any other server I point it to
[12:19] <mdz> hmm, not any
[12:19] <mdz> but my ISPs
[12:19] <mdz> workrave
[12:22] <elmo> mdz: can we import #269157?  I'd like to see if it can be fixed before warty as it'd suck to ship with an nsupdate that's add-only
[12:26] <pitti> mdz: Today I uploaded a new hal package to fix a buffer overflow (#1450); nautilus-cd-burner contains exactly the same flaw, can I upload a new version?
[12:26] <pitti> mdz: it's already fixed in upstream's cvs, he also read my message on utopia
[12:32] <mdz> elmo: imported
[12:33] <mdz> pitti: yes
[12:33] <pitti> mdz: interdiff is www.piware.de/ncb.segfault.diff
[12:33] <pitti> mdz: okay, thanks
[12:35] <npmccallum> can dpkg extract a single file from a binary package?
[12:36] <elmo> don't think so
[12:36] <elmo> you can dpkg -x to a tmpdir tho
[12:36] <mdz> npmccallum: indirectly
[12:37] <pitti> npmccallum: you can do that manually using ar
[12:37] <mdz> npmccallum: dpkg --fsys-tarfile | tar 
[12:37] <elmo>        --fsys-tarfile
[12:37] <elmo>               Extracts  the filesystem tree data from a binary package and sends it to standard output in tar format.  Together with tar(1) this can
[12:37] <elmo>               be used to extract a particular file from a package archive.
[12:37] <Mithrandir> npmccallum: ar pf foo.deb data.tar.gz | tar xvzf ./file
[12:37] <npmccallum> great, thanks!
[12:37] <Mithrandir> TIMTOWTDI
[12:46] <mdz> Kamion: is there any way to convince parted to resize a partition, ignoring the filesystem?
[12:46] <mdz> parted doesn't know how to resize my root fs on this machine
[12:46] <mdz> but resize2fs does
[12:46] <mdz> so I could shrink the filesystem first, and then the partition, if I could convince a tool to do the latter
[12:46] <Mithrandir> fdisk can do it
[12:47] <mdz> fdisk will let me _delete_ it and re-add it; that's much scarier :-)
[12:47] <npmccallum> thats all parted does when it resizes it
[12:47] <npmccallum> all you are doing is removing the sector referances from the partition table
[12:48] <Kamion> npmccallum: parted resizing the filesystem too
[12:48] <Kamion> resizes
[12:48] <npmccallum> I know
[12:48] <mdz> parted is paranoid about it
[12:48] <mdz> fdisk is shoot-yourself-in-the-foot compliant
[12:48] <npmccallum> I meant that parted does the two steps seperately
[12:48] <Kamion> mdz: not that I know of, but I'm no parted guru
[12:48] <npmccallum> the partition table really just tells the os the bounds of the FS
[12:49] <npmccallum> mdz: you can't force parted to do it
[12:49] <npmccallum> mdz: though, you can install pyparted and have access to the lower level api
[12:49] <npmccallum> mdz:  you could do it that way ;)
[12:50] <mdz> parted works in megabytes, resize2fs in filesystem blocks (4k), and fdisk in cylinders
[12:50] <mdz> that is a recipe for MDZ DATA GO BYE-BYE
[12:50] <npmccallum> mdz: only if you do a fsck on the new setup
[12:50] <jdub> seb128: dude
[12:50] <jdub> seb128: did you see about-me on ddl?
[12:50] <jdub> http://topos.ath.cx:8080/~diego/about-me-v2.png
[12:51] <mdz> well, the reason I want to shrink it is so that I can put Ubuntu in the free space
[12:51] <npmccallum> mdz: deleting/re-adding the partition doesn't do anything to the data
[12:51] <mdz> and transition over
[12:51] <seb128> jdub: I've not read this thread yet
[12:51] <seb128> looks nice
[12:51] <npmccallum> mdz: if you screw up the partition remake, just remake it again... just don't reboot until you know you have it right
[12:52] <npmccallum> if you reboot, fsck will try to fix the filesystem in the new partition bounds, which will corrupt data
[12:52] <mdz> npmccallum: it's my root filesystem; I can only get the kernel to re-read the partition table if I reboot
[12:53] <npmccallum> mdz: do it from the install cd
[12:53] <mdz> no resize2fs on the install CD
[12:53] <Mithrandir> mdz: using an NPTL enabled glibc introduces a new set of problems called "stability issues". :(
[12:53] <npmccallum> thats dumb
[12:53] <mdz> I'd need to bring it, and its libraries over into the ramdisk...
[12:53] <npmccallum> get a live cd then... knoppix or my favorite: SystemRescue
[12:53] <Kamion> npmccallum: dude, there's only so much space for multiple implementations of everything
[12:53] <mdz> I wish parted just didn't suck about this
[12:54] <npmccallum> mdz: its not parted that sucks about this, its e2fs
[12:54] <mdz> they went and reimplemented libe2fs
[12:54] <mdz> npmccallum: there's already a library that does this stuff
[12:54] <mdz> and some subset of its functionality is duplicated in parted
[12:54] <jdub> mdz: upstream are actively talking about a panel applet for dynamic device mount/unmount
[12:54] <npmccallum> the e2fs guys told andrew clausen they had no interest in working with him
[12:55] <npmccallum> Kamion: I'm not criticizing the choice to have it on the liveCD, just that is suck for matt to not have it there, I know that space is limited :)
[12:56] <Kamion> ITYM install CD
[12:57] <mdz> it is on the live CD
[12:58] <mdz> but this machine's CD-ROM drive is old, and can't read CD-RWs, and I'm low on CD-Rs :-)
[01:16] <Kamion> This document contains installation instructions for the Ubuntu 4.10 system, for the Intel x86 (i386) architecture. It also contains pointers to more information and information on how to make the most of your new Debian system.
[01:16] <Kamion> hm, well, it's a start of sorts ...
[01:24] <pitti> night, guys!
[02:32] <mdz> Kamion: do you know what Tobias Engvall's bug is?
[02:48] <mdz> jdub: with a tear-stained letter?
[02:50] <seb128> jdub: are we allowed to reply that we suck at picking the non-desktop/non-translated/not-integrated browser ? :p
[02:50] <mdz> jdub: is there a magic button somewhere which can turn the GNOME open file dialog into something you can type a path into?
[02:50] <seb128> ctrl+L
[02:51] <mdz> ah, thanks
[02:51] <seb128> works in nautilus too
[02:59] <jdub> argh
[02:59] <jdub> you guys gave half answers so it could turn into an argument ;)
[03:00] <seb128> I didn't reply !
[03:00] <seb128> we make the wrong choice, I don't want to reply :p
[03:01] <jdub> heh
[03:01] <jdub> sorry seb128 :-)
[03:01] <jdub> seb128: i will link up my answer when i mail the ephy guys :-)
[03:01] <jdub> seb128: i take full responsibility ;)
[03:01] <seb128> I still don't catch why we are getting with a non-integrated browser
[03:01] <seb128> we loose translations
[03:01] <seb128> and we don't win any cool feature
[03:02] <jdub> seb128: brand and familiarity.
[03:02] <jdub> seb128: see my reply. ;)
[03:02] <seb128> bah
[03:02] <seb128> this decision sucks
[03:02] <seb128> familiarity ? 
[03:02] <seb128> that's not a good argument to drop the desktop integration
[03:03] <jdub> well, the world is familiar with firefox, not with gnome
[03:03] <seb128> people are not familiar with evolution neither ...
[03:03] <seb128> yeah
[03:03] <jdub> remember, i'm not saying this from a point of full agreement here :-)
[03:03] <seb128> they have a whole new desktop, what's so different with the browser ?
[03:04] <jdub> seb128: firefox has a very strong brand, very strong momentum
[03:04] <jdub> maybe we should talk about it after you read my reply
[03:04] <seb128> if everybody say that, yes :)
[03:04] <seb128> ok
[03:04] <jdub> dude, it's beyond linux distribution choices :-)
[03:05] <jamesh> seb128: web designers are very conservative, despite advocating the use of standards
[03:05] <jamesh> seb128: if a website doesn't work well and you tell them you are using Epiphany, they will probably tell you they don't support it
[03:05] <jamesh> seb128: they've got a much better chance of looking into the problem if you are using Firefox
[03:05] <jamesh> (which is about as good as you can get, given that IE isn't an option :)
[03:06] <seb128> that's the same engine, isn't it ?
[03:06] <jamesh> yes
[03:06] <seb128> so that's not an argument :p
[03:06] <jamesh> yes it is.
[03:07] <seb128> jdub: "to compete with Firefox on features,"
[03:08] <seb128> jdub: which cool feature is missing in epiphany ?
[03:09] <jdub> seb128: firefox is getting a lot of third party support via extensions and so on, and has features that are familiar to browser users and are appropriate to enterprise deployments.
[03:09] <seb128> BTW epiphany's "familiarity, depth of community" is not going to happen. If everybody picks firefox that's ruined for epiphany
[03:10] <jdub> but remember, 'everybody picks firefox' isn't just a linux distribution issue
[03:10] <jamesh> seb128: also, some of the reasons for choosing OpenOffice apply here
[03:10] <jamesh> since OpenOffice runs on more than just Linux
[03:10] <jdub> lots of people are choosing firefox totally independently of any interest in open source or linux :)
[03:11] <seb128> jamesh: the main reason for that is that abiword sucks at opening word formats, etc 
[03:11] <jdub> i know companies who are planning deployments of firefox for security
[03:11] <jdub> they are not even remotely interested in linux desktops or open source ;)
[03:11] <jdub> seb128: that's not the main reason for OOo
[03:11] <jdub> it's brand and familiarity again
[03:11] <seb128> ok
[03:12] <seb128> I just think that's a hard slap in the face for epiphany
[03:12] <seb128> and it'll not get better with time
[03:12] <jdub> (note that i don't fully agree with all of this myself, but i understand the reasons behind it)
[03:12] <jdub> sure
[03:12] <jdub> same slap in the face for gnumeric/abiword
[03:13] <jdub> gotta be adaptable :)
[03:13] <seb128> yes, but these are not GNOME components
[03:13] <jdub> they are not officiallly 'in' the desktop
[03:13] <jdub> but that's always a tenuous issue ;)
[03:13] <jdub> *everybody* shipped evolution
[03:13] <jdub> *everybody* ships gaim
[03:13] <jdub> etc.
[03:14] <seb128> *nobody* ships epiphany :p
[03:14] <jdub> red hat are shipping epiphany and putting resources behind it
[03:14] <jdub> they are not shipping firefox as default
[03:14] <seb128> good :)
[03:15] <seb128> not sure about the importance of the brand and familiarity plan (big importance apparently)
[03:15] <seb128> but on the technical one (integration, translation, release cycle, ...) we are loosing with firefox
[03:16] <jdub> seb128: it's not cast in stone, we can change in future.
[03:16] <seb128> yes, but still
[03:16] <jdub> seb128: i'm going to be talking to the ephy guys about how that can actually happen
[03:17] <seb128> currently most of the french user complain about the browser being in english
[03:18] <seb128> keeping mozilla-firefox and the ton of locale-* packages is a pain
[03:18] <seb128> +in sync
[03:18] <jdub> seb128: this is cool...
[03:18] <jdub> http://zzrough.free.fr/emifreq.php
[03:18] <jdub> the applet display is bong though
[03:19] <seb128> yeah, one more cool applet :)
[03:20] <jamesh> remember that all applets are at least slightly crack ridden
[03:20] <jamesh> especially new ones like trashapplet :)
[03:21] <seb128> yeah
[03:22] <seb128> jdub: any news about a NEEDINFO state in bugzilla ? :)
[03:22] <seb128> it would make the bug list really more easy to read
[03:23] <seb128> the other solution is close -> reopen with details :)
[03:25] <jdub> seb128: i can't do that, we'll need to ping justdave - could you?
[03:25] <jdub> mdz: happy for gftp to shift to supported?
[03:27] <jamesh> seb128: why do you need NEEDINFO? :)
[03:27] <mdz> jdub: absolutely
[03:27] <schweeb> jdub: that's great news... if you have to ftp, gftp rocks
[03:27] <mdz> jamesh: to keep track of which bugs are blocked on a response from the submitter
[03:27] <seb128> jamesh: because a big part of my huge list of bugs is waiting for details
[03:28] <mdz> makes it easier to revisit them periodically
[03:28] <jamesh> mdz: I usually leave such bugs in UNCONFIRMED state
[03:28] <jdub> schweeb: this is a move from desktop -> supported, so it's kind of a demotion ;)
[03:28] <jamesh> if there is enough information to identify the problem, then I move it to NEW
[03:28] <seb128> and how to know on which bug you have worked or not ?
[03:29] <schweeb> o_O
[03:29] <schweeb> it was in desktop
[03:29] <jdub> jamesh: but if it's confirmed but pending on more info...
[03:29] <seb128> jdub: I'll mail justdave/ubuntu-devel to ask if that's easy to ge
[03:29] <seb128> get
[03:31] <jamesh> jdub/seb128: I might find NEEDINFO if it automatically reverted to the previous state when the reporter provided more info
[03:31] <jamesh> as it is, it is a bit of a black hole
[03:32] <mdz> jamesh: we don't have an UNCONFIRMED state in our bugzilla
[03:34] <seb128> NEEDINFO is not a resolution
[03:34] <seb128> that's the point
[03:40] <seb128> BTW time to sleep
[03:40] <seb128> 'night guys
[03:42] <jdub> night seb!
[03:42] <seb128> later jdub, later guys
[03:45] <jdub> oh
[03:45] <jdub> sweet
[03:45] <jdub> building ephy against firefox is supported now
[03:45] <jdub> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/epiphany-list/2004-September/msg00049.html
[03:46] <jdub> boh
[03:46] <jdub> target isn't listed on the new bugs page
[05:34] <jdub> mdz: around?
[05:48] <m_tthew> he is probably trying the desktop migration again :)
[06:19] <fabbione> morning guys
[06:24] <jdub> yo fabbione 
[07:25] <fabbione> mdz, jdub: so what should we do with X?
[07:25] <fabbione> I really really really unsuggest to wait too long to upload
[07:26] <fabbione> packages in external repositories do not get the same amount of tests
[07:28] <jdub> that's how i feel, thus my suggestion to upload it
[07:28] <jdub> we can always revert the changes in a new upload
[07:30] <fabbione> jdub: i agree.. mdz doesn't
[07:30] <fabbione> you two have to agree on it
[07:31] <fabbione> i think mdz is sleeping now
[07:31] <fabbione> so that means we need to wait another bunch of hours
[07:34] <jdub> yeah
[07:36] <jdub> justdave: whatcha think about my bz requests?
[08:21] <mdz> jdub: here
[08:21] <mdz> fabbione: if you're ready to upload, go for it
[08:21] <fabbione> mdz: I was ready to upload 2 days ago :-)
[08:21] <mdz> fabbione: what's "sleep"?
[08:21] <fabbione> which version do you want in?
[08:22] <mdz> fabbione: what are the choices? 19 vs. 20?
[08:22] <fabbione> ubuntu19 or ubuntu20?
[08:22] <fabbione> yes
[08:22] <mdz> I haven't even seen a changelog for 20
[08:22] <mdz> but I have tested 19
[08:22] <fabbione> ok wait a sec.
[08:23] <fabbione> http://people.no-name-yet.com/~fabbione/changelog
[08:25] <fabbione> mdz, jdub: that's for you two
[08:27] <mdz> fabbione: what is this fpwll stuff?
[08:27] <fabbione> mdz: it's the video output on ppc or something
[08:28] <fabbione> for TV out on some ATI-based PowerPCs.
[08:31] <mdz> fabbione: that sounds like a feature to me
[08:31] <mdz> what is it doing in a strictly bug fix release?
[08:31] <fabbione> mdz: the ati driver has code for it. It is more complicate to remove that part of the code than just add 2 lines diff
[08:33] <mdz> there is a specific patch just for that?
[08:33] <fabbione> yes
[08:33] <mdz> where can I download the .diff.gz?
[08:33] <fabbione>  wc -l 099k_ati_use_fwpll.diff 
[08:33] <fabbione> 82 099k_ati_use_fwpll.diff
[08:34] <fabbione> probably on people
[08:34] <fabbione> daniels did an upload there i guess
[08:34] <fabbione> otherwise i need to do it
[08:35] <fabbione> http://people.no-name-yet.com/~daniels/xfree86/
[08:35] <fabbione> there
[08:35] <fabbione> brb
[08:37] <fabbione> re
[08:45] <fabbione> mdz: the .diff on people doesn't contain my changes
[08:45] <fabbione> just that you know
[09:11] <fabbione> mdz, jdub: any decision?
[09:12] <mdz> fabbione: go
[09:12] <fabbione> mdz: u20 ?
[09:12] <mdz> yes, if you are confident
[09:12] <mdz> I am not familiar enough with X to judge the changes, but I hope nothing breaks
[09:12] <fabbione> yes. we can always revert back if something really goes banana
[09:12] <mdz> we are in ultra freeze mode right now
[09:12] <fabbione> that's why we need people to test stuff on a large scale asap
[09:13] <mdz> so changes need to be more minimal
[09:13] <fabbione> mdz: i know we are in ultra freeze
[09:13] <fabbione> but that's why we discuss bug fixes
[09:13] <fabbione> and i want to have at least the 10 bugs fixed before Final
[09:13] <fabbione> anyway--
[09:13] <mdz> which bug does debian/patches/099j_ati_r4xx_support.diff fix?
[09:13] <fabbione> i will upload ubuntu19 and 5 minutes after ubuntu20
[09:14] <fabbione> mdz: it was discussed somewhere on the mailing lists and irc
[09:14] <mdz> you can just upload both at the same time
[09:14] <mdz> or just 20
[09:14] <fabbione> mdz: i don't remember a bugzilla entry for it
[09:14] <fabbione> mdz: ok
[09:15] <fabbione> mdz: i am also waiting 1298 submitter to test
[09:46] <pitti> Morning
[09:51] <Mithrandir> I ROCK
[09:51] <Mithrandir> (on evolution's head)
[09:52] <Mithrandir> I wonder whose idea it was for evolution-data-server to ship it's own, private copy of libdb.
[09:57] <Mithrandir> jdub: any idea how much will break if I get seb128 to upload an evolution-data-server that does not use it's private libdb, but the shared one?
[09:59] <mdz> Mithrandir: what version does it ship?
[09:59] <Mithrandir> 4.1
[09:59] <Mithrandir> which breaks in, well, interesting ways on amd64
[10:00] <jdub> Mithrandir: very strongly recommend we don't
[10:00] <jdub> one sec
[10:00] <jdub> will rationalise
[10:00] <jdub> just have to order dinner
[10:00] <Mithrandir> jdub: do you have any other suggestion?
[10:01] <jdub> ok
[10:01] <jdub> sorry
[10:01] <jdub> back
[10:02] <jdub> Mithrandir: we can't, because evo needs the same version of libdb so you can copy around contacts
[10:02] <jdub> Mithrandir: surely RH have a patch for this?
[10:03] <Mithrandir> no idea yet, I've been chasing this bug from evo to e-d-s to orbit (which was a dead track), over some corba shit, a bit more around e-d-s and now finally to libdb and wondered wtf it was failing
[10:03] <Mithrandir> I discovered ripping out the static version fixes the problem on amd64
[10:03] <Mithrandir> we could see if updating the private libdb 4.1 to the latest version fixes the problem
[10:05] <Mithrandir> it shows itself by blowing up if you use a free-thread access to the db.
[10:08] <daniels> mdz: the r4xx stuff adds support for any card newer than the 9800 (last of the r3xx series, effectively)
[10:09] <Mithrandir> daniels: is this amd64 support as well?
[10:09] <daniels> Mithrandir: amd64 already works fine on ati
[10:09] <daniels> Mithrandir: but yes, r4xx will work ok on amd64 ;)
[10:10] <Mithrandir> good
[10:10] <daniels> i think i've dug up some halfway sensible code for amd64 vbe
[10:10] <Mithrandir> woo, that's great.
[10:10] <fabbione> daniels: ubuntu20 is up in main
[10:10] <daniels> fabbione: people.nny.com/~fabbione?
[10:10] <fabbione> daniels: MAIN archive
[10:11] <daniels> oh wow, main
[10:11] <daniels> shit
[10:11] <daniels> not bad, just surprising :)
[10:11] <fabbione> daniels: again.. next time read my activity report for 2004-09-20
[10:11] <fabbione> the "changelog" section ;)
[10:12] <daniels> heh, I'd only just cleared warty-changes when I said 'oh wow, main'
[10:12] <daniels> canonical-activity is a little further down the list
[10:12] <fabbione> brb
[10:13] <daniels> 01:13 < clee> btw, ubuntu is totally sucking.
[10:13] <daniels> 01:13 < clee> I hate having everything just work.
[10:13] <daniels> nice work, guys :)
[10:15] <seb128> morning
[10:17] <Mithrandir> hi seb.
[10:18] <Mithrandir> seb128: evolution-data-server seems to not ship clean source ; libdb/dist includes config.log among other things
[10:18] <seb128> hum, I've not checked
[10:18] <seb128> is that a problem ?
[10:19] <daniels> oh man, fglrx doesn't do xrandr? that's so much arse
[10:19] <Mithrandir> seb128: it's ugly, nothing more.
[10:19] <seb128> ok :)
[10:19] <seb128> I'll check that
[10:20] <Mithrandir> seb128: I'd really like you to apply a small patch as well -- it thinks amd64 doesn't support fast mutexes
[10:22] <seb128> better to bug report upstream with the patch and wait for comments at this point of the release cycle
[10:22] <seb128> where is the patch ?
[10:23] <Mithrandir> in libdb/dist/aclocal/mutex.ac; #if (defined(i386) || defined(__i386__)) && defined(__GNU
[10:23] <Mithrandir> C__)
[10:23] <Mithrandir> should be changed to include || defined(__x86_64__)
[10:24] <Mithrandir> do you know how to regenerate the configure script?  When I try to, it blows up :/
[10:27] <jamesh> seb128: I think the trashdir patch for trash applet is pretty much done, btw.
[10:27] <Mithrandir> bah
[10:27] <seb128> jamesh: yes, I'm reading my mails, I've seen the patch but not tested yet
[10:28] <seb128> Mithrandir: feel free to upload e-d-s with the patch if you want. What's the problem with the configure generation ?
[10:28] <jamesh> With the patch, if I start with an empty trash, put a file in the trash on the USB key, it says I have 1 item in the trash
[10:28] <jamesh> when I unplug the USB key, it says the trash is empty again
[10:28] <seb128> cool
[10:28] <jamesh> when plugging it in again, it sees the 1 item again
[10:28] <seb128> rock !
[10:29] <Mithrandir> seb128: make[4] : @db_cv_path_sh@: Command not found
[10:30] <seb128> utch
[10:30] <seb128> let me try
[10:37] <Mithrandir> it's missing from configure.ac
[10:38] <Mithrandir> I wonder how they ever built this in the first place
[10:46] <Sledge__> morning
[10:46] <Mithrandir> seb128: getting anywhere?
[10:47] <seb128> it builds fine here after running the auto*
[10:48] <Mithrandir> can you put the diff somewhere I can get at it?
[10:48] <Mithrandir> so I can build and test that it works on amd64 before uploading
[10:48] <seb128> the configure diff ?
[10:49] <Mithrandir> how are  you running auto*
[10:50] <seb128> libtoolize --force --copy && aclocal-1.6 && autoheader && automake-1.6 -acf && autoconf
[10:51] <Mithrandir> erm, libdb doesn't use automake
[10:53] <seb128> hum, I've run it for e-d-s in fact
[10:53] <seb128> that's not good ?
[10:53] <Mithrandir> I just don't see how this:
[10:53] <Mithrandir> : tfheen@golem ..a-server-1.0.0/libdb/dist > grep -ir  @db_cv_path_sh@ . 
[10:53] <Mithrandir> ./Makefile.in:SHELL=    @db_cv_path_sh@
[10:53] <Mithrandir> ./configure:s,@db_cv_path_sh@,$db_cv_path_sh,;t t
[10:53] <Mithrandir> ./config.status:s,@db_cv_path_sh@,/bin/sh,;t t
[10:53] <Mithrandir> can ever work.
[10:53] <Mithrandir> no, running it in the top level doesn't help
[10:58] <Mithrandir> it doesn't find the files in aclocal/
[10:59] <seb128> try to use aclocal-1.6 -I /usr/share/aclocal/gnome2-macros
[10:59] <Mithrandir> why should libdb care about gnome2-macros?
[11:02] <Mithrandir> it's now just complaining about AM_VERSION_SET
[11:03] <seb128> no idea of why it should care but it works here in this way :)
[11:04] <Mithrandir> when you've changed libdb/dist/aclocal/mutexes as I wrote?
[11:04] <Mithrandir> mutexes.ac
[11:05] <Mithrandir> ah
[11:05] <Mithrandir> s_config
[11:07] <Mithrandir> yay!
[11:07] <Mithrandir> s///
[11:13] <seb128> yes, it works fine here in the way described before with the change in libdb/dist/aclocal/mutex.ac
[11:18] <Mithrandir> I've made it work now, making diff.
[11:19] <Mithrandir> jdub/mdz: around?
[11:20] <Mithrandir> jdub: http://raw.no/patches/evolution-data-server_1.0.0-0ubuntu2-amd64-libdb-mutex.diff ; fixes 1443 ; approved for upload?
[11:21] <fabbione> jdub: wake up dude :-)
[11:22] <Mithrandir> (yes, the diff is big due to autoconf being run, I'm sorry)
[11:22] <Mithrandir> he's xa on jabber.
[11:23] <fabbione> daniels: http://people.no-name-yet.com/~lamont/buildLogs/x/xfree86/4.3.0.dfsg.1-6ubuntu20/
[11:28] <daniels> fabb	awesome :)
[11:31] <fabbione> daniels: we probably have the full fix for the Xv
[11:31] <fabbione> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=256052
[11:31] <fabbione> check the last comment on this bug
[11:34] <fabbione> there has been a big ati update on xorg.
[11:39] <fabbione> daniels: should we start packaging x.org?
[11:39] <fabbione> from scratch
[12:05] <jdub> Mithrandir, fabbione: pong
[12:12] <Mithrandir> jdub: see mail
[12:12] <jdub> replied
[12:13] <jdub> deferred :)
[12:20] <Mithrandir> ok, I hope mdz will approve it when he wakes up, then.
[12:36] <pitti> jdub: just fixed https://bugzilla.ubuntulinux.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1589 ; approval?
[12:38] <jdub> commented, approved
[12:51] <daniels> fabbione: from scratch?
[12:51] <daniels> fabbione: i already have packages, you bongsipper :)
[12:53] <fabbione> yes from scratch
[12:53] <daniels> why from scratch?
[12:53] <fabbione> because:
[12:53] <fabbione> a) i want to split as much as we can from the beginning with some insane stuff
[12:54] <fabbione> b) i want to get rid of all the old maint scritps from debian
[12:54] <fabbione> c) we have like 300K lines of patches to revisit
[12:56] <jamesh> one of the gnome-panel authors can't spell "preffered" :)
[01:01] <daniels> fabbione: heh
[01:01] <daniels> fabbione: getting rid of the dbs crap would be good
[01:01] <daniels> fabbione: sure
[01:03] <fabbione> actually i am happy with dbs
[01:03] <fabbione> what would you suggest instead?
[01:05] <daniels> dpatch?
[01:05] <daniels> i see the case for dbs, though
[01:06] <fabbione> what's the difference.. dpatch is even more dangerous
[01:06] <fabbione> anyway we need to talk on the phone at least before we start
[01:07] <Mithrandir> dpatch is scary, since it wedges fairly easily, IME
[01:07] <fabbione> Mithrandir: yep
[01:07] <fabbione> and we don't want that for X ...
[01:08] <fabbione> brb
[01:13] <fabbione> re
[01:23] <pooh_> morning all
[01:24] <sivang> morning
[01:24] <fabbione> daniels: are you still around?
[02:02] <seb128> jdub: #1493, ok for upload ?
[02:05] <thom> argh
[02:05] <thom> broken makefiles ahoy!
[02:07] <thom> /home/thom/work/packages/mozilla-firefox-0.99+1.0PR/config/nsinstall: cannot make directory /usr/bin/defaults: Permission denied
[02:07] <fabbione> nice :-)
[02:08] <thom> what the hell is /usr/bin/defaults?
[02:08] <fabbione> Source: x.org
[02:08] <fabbione> Section: x11
[02:08] <fabbione> Priority: optional
[02:08] <fabbione> thom: do you want to exchange?
[02:09] <pitti> thom: shall I take #552 (thunderbird security vulnerability) from you? I'm running out of major bugs
[02:09] <thom> pitti: it should just be a sync request
[02:09] <pitti> thom: you really want to sync in the freeze?
[02:09] <thom> 1385 needs investigation :-)
[02:10] <thom> pitti: and see comment 4 on 1385 :-)
[02:11] <pitti> thom: ah, okay. If Matt agress to sync, fine for me
[02:12] <pitti> thom: but such regressions liek 1385 are the reason why I like to backport security fixes :-/
[02:13] <thom> pitti: sure
[02:14] <thom> pitti: you know mozilla's approach to security fixes tho, right? :(
[02:14] <pitti> thom: not really
[02:14] <thom> pitti: here's a new api, here's a patch that uses the new api to fix the bug, everyone, upgrade, quick
[02:15] <pitti> thom: I assumed something along that line, yes
[02:15] <jdub> thom: it is very hard to write a secure api! (!!!) look at windows! (!!!)
[02:15] <pitti> thom: is there any other reason to upgrade to 0.8 apart from the security fix?
[02:26] <daniels> fabbione: sup?
[02:26] <daniels> fabbione: oh man
[02:26] <daniels> fabbione: please don't do libs
[02:26] <daniels> fabbione: give me a sec, i'll upload some files you need
[02:26] <daniels> fabbione: also, xorg is better, i think
[02:27] <fabbione> daniels: no i just prepared an empty debian dir
[02:28] <fabbione> with the minimum to unpack x.org 6.8.1
[02:28] <fabbione> nothing more
[02:28] <fabbione> also because i want to discuss with you a bunch of things
[02:28] <daniels> fabbione: sure
[02:28] <fabbione> on how to approach x.org to simplify the split later
[02:28] <fabbione> i have some insane ideas
[03:01] <Mithrandir> fabbione: any idea what might cause this:
[03:01] <Mithrandir> X Error of failed request:  BadValue (integer parameter out of range for operation)
[03:01] <Mithrandir>   Major opcode of failed request:  45 (X_OpenFont)
[03:01] <Mithrandir>   Value in failed request:  0x2c00058
[03:01] <Mithrandir>   Serial number of failed request:  1197
[03:01] <Mithrandir>   Current serial number in output stream:  1198
[03:01] <Mithrandir> ?
[03:01] <Mithrandir> (xfontsel dying when selecting verdana font)
[03:03] <lamont> elmo about?
[03:06] <T-Bone> hi, anyone awake?
[03:07] <thom> quite a few people are, yeah
[03:07] <thom> lamont: catch him on jabber, prolly best
[03:08] <T-Bone> ok ;) Roughly put, I'd like to know what it takes to become an ubuntu maintainer
[03:09] <Mithrandir> looks like lying to defoma was a bad idea
[03:10] <thom> T-Bone: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/maintainers
[03:10] <jdub> hey
[03:10] <jdub> so
[03:10] <jdub> .debs aren't built in the order they packages are specified in control, are they?
[03:11] <Mithrandir> jdub: I don't think it's defined anywhere
[03:11] <T-Bone> thom: ok. Another question, to which I couldn't find an answer on google: is there a plan to port ubuntu to ia64?
[03:11] <thom> T-Bone: if enough people with ia64s express interest, sure
[03:12] <T-Bone> thom: well, I do express interest, and might even be interested in actively contributing to such a port
[03:12] <T-Bone> i have machines, and time on my hands
[03:12] <thom> certainly not for warty though :-)
[03:12] <T-Bone> yeah I would have guessed that ;)
[03:12] <thom> but start a thread on the devel list, see if there's interest, and go from there :-)
[03:13] <T-Bone> thom: ok, i'll do that
[03:13] <sivang> T-Bone : take a number :) I also want to become one ;-) what are you interested in besides ia64?
[03:14] <T-Bone> sivang: well, i'm already a DD, and a (modest) kernel hacker, so my interests in the OSS and Linux fields are quite vast ;)
[03:19] <lamont> T-Bone: I plan to start a local mirror with ia64 bits in it just to run the house machine...
[03:19] <T-Bone> lamont: here's some data for you, dude ;)
[03:20] <T-Bone> as part of one of my school's project,
[03:20] <T-Bone> i'm working on ia64 linux
[03:20] <lamont> T-Bone: the real need is a working warty (er, hoary) installer for ia64 - the rest flows pretty easily.
[03:20] <T-Bone> part of that project is to check the existing distro
[03:20] <T-Bone> the second part of the project
[03:20] <T-Bone> is to eventually build a rock solid distro, suitable for enterprise-grade quality
[03:21] <T-Bone> a free distro
[03:21] <T-Bone> this might also get integrated to the Gelato federation
[03:21] <T-Bone> therefore, i thought about porting ubuntu
[03:21] <T-Bone> lamont: see my point? ;)
[03:22] <lamont> T-Bone: bigtime
[03:22] <T-Bone> lamont: this is also why i have _time_ ;)
[03:22] <T-Bone> lamont: aside palinux time ;)
[03:23] <lamont> fabbione: ok.  that's 10 fingers _AND_ 10 toes.  You can stop uploading new versions of X :-)
[03:24] <Mithrandir> lamont: he's just trying to keep the buildds in good shape
[03:25] <lamont> Mithrandir: the buildd's don't break a sweat.  My local mirror hates him. :-)
[03:25] <Mithrandir> heh, ok :)
[03:26] <lamont> building:   05:56:04     3.53%
[03:26] <lamont> idle    :  156:56:00    93.41%
[03:26] <lamont> total   :  168:00:04
[03:26] <lamont> like I said... no sweat. :-)
[03:26] <Mithrandir> yeah, I get those as well
[03:27] <lamont> and that's because I gave back all the 'building (really probably == failed)' packages in universe yesterday... :)
[03:27] <lamont> Mithrandir: yeah, you would.
[03:27] <Mithrandir> just for amd64, though
[03:27] <lamont> speaking of which, once I get the summary reports to show up, do you want to keep getting all the logs, or just hit the web site?
[03:28] <Mithrandir> RSS feed for only the failed ones would be nice.
[03:28] <lamont> Mithrandir: what's RSS??? :-)
[03:29] <T-Bone> lol
[03:29] <Mithrandir> lamont: seriously, I can code up the RSS feed if you give me a hook somewhere in the chain of putting the logs somewhere
[03:29] <Mithrandir> (or access to the database, or something)
[03:29] <lamont> hrm... I could add -v to the rsync, and then generate HTML from that to give you a list of all the logs for a day...
[03:31] <lamont> */10 * * * * rsync -a ...:buildLogs/ public_html/buildLogs/
[03:31] <lamont> that could certainly get fatter...
[03:42] <Mithrandir> it was probably added recently
[03:54] <thom> god this is sucky
[04:01] <lamont> Mithrandir: ~/bin/mirrorLogs.py, btw
[04:01] <lamont> patches welcome. :-)
[04:01] <jdub> hey
[04:01] <jdub> dh_install doesn't rename
[04:01] <jdub> is there another option apart from stuff in rules?
[04:01] <thom> debian/foo.install
[04:02] <jdub> that's:
[04:02] <jdub> file dir
[04:02] <jdub> not file dir/file
[04:02] <thom> thought it did both? oh well
[04:02] <jdub> nah
[04:02] <thom> suck
[04:02] <jdub> unfort
[04:02] <jdub> thanks for the firefox stuff dude
[04:02] <jdub> sorry it is painful :|
[04:02] <thom> is ok
[04:02] <jdub> i am doing something now
[04:02] <jdub> which will brighten your day
[04:02] <thom> i have at least one upstream bug to file so far
[04:03] <jdub> and make you cack your panties
[04:03] <lamont> Kamion: you about?
[04:03] <jdub> thom: i am... KILLING ESOUND :-)
[04:03] <thom> rock and roll
[04:03] <thom> how?
[04:03] <jdub> polypaudio :-)
[04:03] <jdub> protocol compat
[04:03] <jdub> so all libesd apps will still work
[04:03] <jdub> but... actually work
[04:04] <thom> swoit
[04:04] <jdub> then i will convince gnome to shift to it in 2.10
[04:05] <lamont> back in a bit
[04:06] <Kamion> lamont: yo
[04:10] <jdub> yo rburton 
[04:10] <rburton> hey jdub
[04:11] <rburton> lamont: so i'm trying to find out if msttcorefonts was built for universe, if it failed, etc. it isn't in your build logs, so can i assume it wasn't even built?
[04:25] <pitti> fabio: you guys broke my iBook
[04:25] <pitti> fabbione: this morning I apt-upgraded my iBook (did not do that for about a week), and now X does not start any more; I only get a black screen, cannot switch back to consoles, etc.
[04:26] <pitti> fabbione: any idea how I can debug this?
[04:27] <Mithrandir> rburton: msttcorefonts is contrib
[04:27] <Mithrandir> rburton: contrib is outside of universe ATM
[04:28] <rburton> aah
[04:30] <jdub> oh
[04:30] <jdub> bong
[04:30] <jdub> sorry, should've remembered that
[04:31] <rburton> np
[04:31] <rburton> can i expect it for warty?
[04:31] <Mithrandir> rburton: you want to test 1.1.7 of it?
[04:32] <rburton> yeah ok
[04:32] <Mithrandir> binary i386 package or source?
[04:32] <rburton> i386 will be great
[04:33] <Mithrandir> it's actually an _all.deb, so :P
[04:33] <rburton> good point so it is
[04:34] <Mithrandir> http://raw.no/tmp/msttcorefonts_1.1.7_all.deb
[04:35] <Mithrandir> 
[04:35] <Mithrandir> uhm
[04:35] <Mithrandir> once it's installed, can you check that fonts still work, and that fonts are now in /usr/share/fonts/truetype/msttcorefonts?
[04:35] <rburton> installing...
[04:35] <rburton> sure
[04:36] <rburton> fonts are in right location
[04:36] <Mithrandir> I _think_ I've gotten it all right, but it's always nice to have somebody else test as well
[04:38] <rburton> seems to work fine, great
[04:38] <Mithrandir> cool, thanks
[04:39] <sladen> seb128: gpdf -is- xpdf
[04:40] <seb128> sladen: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=112506
[04:41] <lamont> rburton: let me check - not in the web buildLogs means either built, or already marked failed/depwait/etc.
[04:41] <rburton> lamont: turns out it wasn;t built as its in contrib
[04:41] <Mithrandir> lamont: it's contrib in Debian
[04:41] <lamont> Kamion: is there a convenient script lying around somewhere that I could use to find all the source packages that have _all.deb, but no _i386.deb, and mention same in their control file?
[04:41] <lamont> rburton: ok.
[04:43] <Kamion> lamont: not that I can think of, unless you count "hack it up with grep-dctrl" ...
[04:44] <lamont> Kamion: that's what I was trying to skip. :-)
[04:44] <lamont> s/skip/avoid/
[04:45] <lamont> hrm.. I could just take everything that
[04:45] <lamont> is 'building' on i386 and see if it has any arch: all in the archive.
[04:48] <sladen> seb128: ``GPdf's handling of embedded fonts is almost non-existant.''  Oh that's clever, defeating 97.5% of the reason for PDF...
[04:50] <lamont> Kamion: btw, I moved which machine does the i386 daily DI build...  scream if it doesn't work in the morning...
[04:56] <lamont> Kamion: 29 packages to visit. Not that bad.. :-(
[05:05] <fabbione> Mithrandir, pitti: driver?
[05:05] <pitti> fabbione: radeon
[05:05] <pitti> fabbione: I can still log in over network
[05:06] <pitti> fabbione: looked at the X log, nothing I can tell from it, but maybe I can send it to you?
[05:06] <fabbione> pitti: send it to daniels. he did some ati update
[05:06] <pitti> fabbione: okay
[05:07] <fabbione> I will revert the changes and upload ubuntu21
[05:08] <jdub> thom: where's the "tell xscreensaver to blank on lid close" thing?
[05:09] <jdub> nm, found it
[05:10] <pitti> fabbione: you will revert the ati changes?
[05:10] <pitti> fabbione: so can I just wait for ubuntu21 instead of trying to downgrade?
[05:11] <fabbione> pitti: up to you
[05:11] <fabbione> it will take me another 10 minutes to upload
[05:11] <pitti> fabbione: if you upload today...
[05:11] <fabbione> and approx 2 hours before it will be in the archive
[05:11] <thom> my radeon still works with -20 :-)
[05:11] <pitti> fabbione: that's fine, thanks!
[05:12] <fabbione> jdub: do you agree or do we need to ask for mdz approval too?
[05:12] <fabbione> thom: so does mine
[05:12] <jdub> fabbione: for?
[05:12] <jdub> oh
[05:12] <jdub> reverting changes in a new upload?
[05:12] <fabbione> yes
[05:12] <jdub> i can approve of that, given the fallout ;)
[05:12] <thom> Preparing to replace mozilla-firefox 0.9.3-2.2ubuntu3 (using .../mozilla-firefox_0.99+1.0PR-1_amd64.deb)
[05:12] <fabbione> ati is broken
[05:13] <jdub> best to get it in, see if anything else breaks
[05:13] <jdub> thom: rock :)
[05:13] <fabbione> jdub: do you approve or not? ;)
[05:13] <jdub> fabbione: yes
[05:13] <fabbione> there is no news that you CAN approve :-)
[05:13] <Kamion> console-data RC bug coming up
[05:14] <Kamion> (translation b0rkage, including English)
[05:14] <fabbione> fabbione@trider-g7:/usr/src/xorg$ ls
[05:14] <fabbione> x.org-6.8.1              x.org_6.8.1-0.1.dsc
[05:14] <fabbione> x.org_6.8.1-0.1.diff.gz  x.org_6.8.1.orig.tar.gz
[05:14] <fabbione> PHEAR
[05:14] <fabbione> MUHA UHA UHA
[05:16] <rburton> oooooh
[05:20] <fabbione> rburton: just kidding.. that's only the orig.tar.gz :-)
[05:21] <fabbione> there are 0 binaries ;)
[05:21] <rburton> it's a start :)
[05:21] <fabbione> yeah exactly
[05:22] <fabbione> pitti, jdub: X uploaded
[05:23] <fabbione> that's the last one if there are no other major bugs coming up
[05:23] <pitti> fabbione: thanks for the info. I sent the X log to daniels, FYI
[05:23] <pitti> fabbione: ah, wasn't ubuntu12 supposed the last one? :-))
[05:23] <Mithrandir> fabbione: pong, huh?
[05:24] <Mithrandir> fabbione: oh, what kind of drivers I'm using?
[05:24] <fabbione> Mithrandir: you said something was wrong with X
[05:24] <fabbione> i guess it's an ati driver
[05:24] <fabbione> driver/card
[05:24] <Mithrandir> fabbione: I did?  Where?
[05:24] <Mithrandir> fabbione: ah, no, I found out
 X Error of failed request:  BadValue (integer parameter out of
[05:25] <Mithrandir> just me lying to defoma
[05:25] <Mithrandir> which is a bad idea
[05:25] <fabbione> lamont: yeah 10 fingers, 10 toues and now 1 d**k ;)
[05:25] <fabbione> lamont: i will need help to count for the next release
[05:26] <Mithrandir> fabbione: you can count to a lot more than 10 with just your fingers.
[05:26] <Kamion> "I'd give my left penis to be normal"
[05:26] <Mithrandir> fabbione: with ten fingers, you can count to 1024.
[05:26] <Mithrandir> with your toes as well, you can count to a million (1024^2)
[05:27] <Mithrandir> should be enough, even for X revisions
[05:27] <fabbione> Mithrandir: ahah
[05:27] <fabbione> Mithrandir: don't be so sure
[05:28] <fabbione> anyway.. i need to write down some ideas on how to split Xorg source
[05:28] <fabbione> s/ideas/insane &/
[05:28] <Mithrandir> fabbione: I think lamont will kill you if you go over 1M X revisions
[05:29] <fabbione> Mithrandir: it will cost me less to buy him an adsl ;)
[05:29] <Mithrandir> yeah. :)
[05:29] <Mithrandir> including the digging
[05:31] <lamont> fabbione: ADSL not available in my area.
[05:31] <lamont> which REALLY, REALLY, REALLY HURTS
[05:32] <fabbione> lamont: well we can buy a serious wireless link with dishes and so on..
[05:32] <lamont> OTOH, if the proposal to develop the land a mile west of here goes through, then they'll drop another RT close enough to hit me within 12 months, I expect.
[05:32] <fabbione> lamont: I saw a bunch of them years ago
[05:32] <lamont> feh
[05:32] <fabbione> and they weren't too expensive
[05:32] <fabbione> considering..
[05:32] <Mithrandir> 2000 ft?  You can just get a drop there and then use coax to get to you, then?
[05:33] <Mithrandir> if you use 3com card, it works with 600m 10base2.
[05:33] <Mithrandir> cards, even
[05:33] <lamont> "there" is in the middle of a field, and there are county roads in the way...
[05:33] <Mithrandir> get a digger, then? :)
[05:33] <lamont> however, wireless link to go .5 miles is a possibility...
[05:34] <thom> right, hopefully this is the last firefox build
[05:34] <thom> then i need to investigate languages
[05:34] <fabbione> lamont: search on google.. there was someone that did a wlan <-> parabolic dish adapter using a can of tomato souce
[05:34] <fabbione> cheap and effective
[05:34] <Mithrandir> fabbione: pringles antenna
[05:34] <lamont> fabbione: that gets you about 8-12 dB.  I have a 24dB dish on the roof
[05:35] <lamont> and at least 1 spare in the shed.
[05:35] <Mithrandir> that could work
[05:35] <Mithrandir> as long as you have LoS, wlan works fairly well out-of-spec.
[05:35] <Mithrandir> (and decent antennas)
[05:35] <lamont> Mithrandir: big time -that's what I'm using for my wlan internet feed now.
[05:35] <lamont> however, when the hilltop looses power long enough to run the UPS dry, it's bad...
[05:36] <lamont> is 18 miles "out of spec"?
[05:36] <Mithrandir> for 802.11b?
[05:36] <lamont> yep
[05:36] <Mithrandir> certainly.
[05:36] <Mithrandir> :P
[05:36] <lamont> 1W ERP (legal limit) on both ends.  About 5dB or less of margin.  sucks to have weather
[05:36] <Mithrandir> you boost it a bit, I guess, then?
[05:37] <lamont> yeah.
[05:37] <Mithrandir> 1W isn't really much, though.
[05:37] <lamont> the funny thing is that what really kills it is snow, not rain.
[05:37] <Mithrandir> well, it tries to melt the snow.. kinda icky.
[05:37] <lamont> the reflected near-power at the hilltop site de-senses the receiver, and pushes the noise floor above our margin.
[05:38] <lamont> rain just attenuates the signal.
[05:38] <Mithrandir> also, I'd think snowflakes are a bit bigger, so you catch them.
[05:39] <lamont> nah - 1/4 wavelength == 2cm, which is still pretty huge compared to our typical snowflakes
[05:39] <Mithrandir> hm, true.
[05:39] <m_tthew> what sort of antennas on each end?
[05:40] <Mithrandir> what's the reason, then?
[05:40] <m_tthew> are you using amps?
[05:40] <lamont> OTOH, the massive wall of snowflakes makes a pretty good reflector for all the 50W, 100W, and 50KW transmitters at the site.
[05:40] <lamont> even with poor reflection, that's a hell of a lot of reflected power.
[05:40] <lamont> my end is 100mW aironet into a 24dB dish (and yes, that's too much...  But there are cable and connector losses)
[05:41] <m_tthew> parabolic grid or actual dish?
[05:41] <lamont> the hilltop is 100mW into a 60dB passfilter, 1W amp, lowloss cable, and 8dB omni
[05:41] <lamont> grid
[05:41] <Mithrandir> lamont: why an omni at the hilltop?
[05:41] <lamont> Mithrandir: the other 50 or so users of the hilltop can talk to it better that way...
[05:41] <m_tthew> have you tried the hilltop with more gain and original radio power without an amp?
[05:42] <Mithrandir> oh, there are other users. :)
[05:42] <m_tthew> I've had lousy experiences with amps, usually just jacks up the noise floor really bad.
[05:42] <lamont> m_tthew: not even close to working.
[05:42] <Mithrandir> m_tthew: should help when you have a passfilter in front.
[05:42] <m_tthew> yeah, and that low loss, is it LMR400?
[05:43] <lamont> m_tthew: for the short runs, LMR400.  Anything over ~10 meters --> LMR600
[05:43] <m_tthew> oh, you need runs that long between the radio and antenna, eh?
[05:43] <rburton> can someone using ppc run gnome-audio-profiles-properties for me?
[05:43] <m_tthew> crikey LMR600, 400 is hard enough to work with
[05:43] <lamont> m_tthew: took us time to find some good amps.  the co-op is actually in the process of switching over to Motorola Canopy
[05:43] <rburton> it will either crash, or you'll get a dialog
[05:44] <lamont> radio is typically a PCI or PCMCIA card in the computer in the closet somewhere.
[05:44] <m_tthew> lamont: canopy seems to work very well, particularly in those 'lots of clients' situation that tank 11b
[05:44] <lamont> m_tthew: 1"5/8 hardline is much more fun to work with... :)
[05:44] <m_tthew> lamont: :) heh
[05:45] <lamont> m_tthew: yep.  none of this 'wait for a clear channel' niceness...  OTOH, if anyone is running w/o gps sync, everyone dies.
[05:45] <m_tthew> lamont: hah, I didn't know that
[05:47] <lamont> m_tthew: canopy slices time up into AP and SM slots, and the AP assigns them to SM's.  Hence you _KNOW_ that the channel is clear for your transmit time, and the air-delay means that other AP's still get clear time (since every AP on the planet transmits at the same time...)
[05:47] <lamont> that is, if they all agree on what time it is.. ;)
[05:48] <lamont> right. enough stalling.  time to work on getty
[05:50] <m_tthew> thanks, and good luck :)
[05:57] <Kamion> jdub: #1607 OK?
[05:58] <jdub> Kamion: yeah, sure
[05:58] <jdub> Kamion: we should probably take translations out of the freezer
[05:59] <Kamion> ta. this is kind of an odd case, a missing translation of just one of the keymap names kills the whole lot
[05:59] <jdub> mmm
[05:59] <Kamion> it's also an odd case because English is a translation (from C) :-)
[06:00] <jdub> hrm
[06:00] <jdub> so
[06:01] <jdub> i have a module with a bunch of dlopenable things in it
[06:01] <jdub> some of which i'm putting in separate packages
[06:01] <jdub> should they depend on the primary package?
[06:01] <jdub> suggest it?
[06:01] <jdub> they're totally fricking useless without it
[06:01] <Mithrandir> then make them depend on the main package?
[06:02] <jdub> that's the right thing to do?
[06:02] <Mithrandir> would be reasonable, IMHO
[06:13] <Kamion> Mark wants several questions moved back to pre-reboot, and I really don't want to duplicate the code if I can help it
[06:14] <Kamion> having the base-config source generate some udebs with the questions it wants to ask seems like the least bad answer
[06:15] <azeem> is the goal to not have any curses-based stuff running after reboot, and directly enter X?
[06:15] <Kamion> azeem: apparently so, yeah
[06:16] <thom> Mithrandir: dude, have you looked at translating firefox 1.0PR yet?
[06:16] <Kamion> azeem: well, no questions anyway unless X goes wrong
[06:16] <azeem> sure
[06:16] <Kamion> it's a slightly scary redesign
[06:16] <azeem> if ubuntu releases are such a non-moving thing, did you consider just extracting a tarball image of base+desktop, and do configuring on top of it?
[06:17] <Kamion> azeem: see sounder@; that's really hard to maintain
[06:17] <azeem> I mean, it looks like every desktop will be around 99% identical
[06:17] <Kamion> considered and rejected
[06:17] <azeem> yeah, ok
[06:17] <Kamion> it would be an awful lot of divergent code to do that, too; we'd have to support both paths because netboot installs don't want to work that way
[06:17] <azeem> right
[06:19] <azeem> I guess the speed difference wouldn't be so big nowadays anyway, so the maintainabilty trumps it
[06:20] <Kamion> exactly, there are other ways to speed things up
[06:20] <fabbione> Kamion: which mail are you talking about?
[06:20] <Kamion> fabbione: hm?
 azeem: see sounder@; that's really hard to maintain
[06:20] <Kamion> fabbione: thread about debootstrap with John
[06:20] <fabbione> i got curious, but i couldn't understand the thread
[06:20] <fabbione> ahhh
[06:21] <fabbione> i tend to skip VERY looong threads
[06:35] <jdub> Kamion: you'll be pleased to know that john is now harassing bruce
[06:35] <Sledge__> jdub: *grin*
[06:36] <Sledge__> he sent a private email to me today about Debian DVDs
[06:36] <Sledge__> and I think I'm just going to ignore him for now
[06:37] <Kamion> jdub: oh good; mind you I think he's capable of multidirectional harassment
[07:03] <lamont> seb128: http://people.no-name-yet.com/~lamont/buildLogs/g/gtk+2.0/2.4.10-1ubuntu1 ...
[07:03] <lamont> :-(
[07:03] <lamont> xargs: rm: terminated by signal 4
[07:03] <lamont> dh_movefiles: command returned error code
[07:03] <lamont> gotta love ppc...
[07:03] <lamont> I think I'm going to make an autoreply for that...
[07:04] <seb128> hum
[07:04] <seb128> I've nothing to do, that's an autobuilder failure, right ?
[07:06] <jdub> seb128: what's the cdbs rule after install, but before binary?
[07:06] <lamont> seb128: that's a ppc kernel bug
[07:06] <jdub> common-binary?
[07:06] <lamont> but yeah,
[07:07] <seb128> jdub: let me check
[07:07] <lamont> from now on, things that say ' terminated by signal 4' will get retried. :-)
[07:09] <lamont> so why does dist-upgrade ask me about kernel keymaps, framebuffer devices, and such???
[07:11] <mdz> morning
[07:11] <thom> mdz: so, um.
[07:11] <seb128> jdub: install/package: perhaps ?
[07:12] <thom> they've totally redone how language support works
[07:12] <jdub> seb128: that seems to happen beforehand
[07:12] <thom> in firefox
[07:12] <thom> and i can't make the old language packs work at all
[07:12] <jdub> jesuuuuus
[07:13] <seb128> epiphany at least has translation integrated :p
[07:14] <thom> i wasn't saying it
[07:14] <seb128> not saying .... :)
[07:15] <lamont> looks like my AP didn't survive the power mess yesterday either. :-(
[07:16] <thom> mdz: on the plus side, firefox works fine ;-)
[07:16] <mdz> thom: well, considering our current firefox is pretty much untranslated, at least that's not a regression :-)
[07:17] <thom> this is true
[07:17] <thom> i guess we can just pull in the translations when they get done, and hope to hell they don't fuck them up again before 1.0
[07:20] <thom> mdz: am i good to upload 1.0PR then?
[07:20] <mdz> thom: yes
[07:21] <jdub> seb128: so install -> tmp
[07:22] <seb128> yes
[07:22] <jdub> then binary -> (package)/
[07:22] <jdub> i need to futz with (package)/ before -> .deb :)
[07:23] <seb128> binary-install/package:
[07:23] <seb128>    rm debian/package/...
[07:23] <jdub> binary-install? hrm, i'll try
[07:25] <jdub> seb128: rocking!
[07:25] <jdub> seb128: thanks
[07:25] <jdub> seb128: you will be very happy to see what i'm working on :-)
[07:25] <seb128> np
[07:25] <seb128> oh ? /me waiting for the next upload :)
[07:26] <jdub> lamont: so if we do random uploads, things will pop into universe?
[07:27] <lamont> jdub: mcs Build-Depends mono-mcs (which is built by mcs), so it'll need to be bootstrapped.
[07:27] <lamont> new would require elmo love
[07:27] <lamont> but I think all the sources are there already (in universe), just back at 0.96...
[07:27] <lamont> gimme a list of source packages, and it's trivial to verify that they exist.
[07:28] <jdub> lamont: new source packages
[07:28] <lamont> that takes elmo love
[07:28] <lamont> but yes, they'd wind up in universe.
[07:28] <jdub> actually
[07:28] <jdub> i don't need a fucking flower
[07:29] <lamont> and then someone would probably have to poke me to bootstrap them.
[07:29] <jdub> elmo: I'M GOING TO KILL ESD UNTIL IT IS DEAD
[07:29] <lamont> jdub: and non-revivifiable?
[07:29] <jdub> i'll wrap it in plastic if i have to
[07:29] <lamont> [er, Steven Brust, Vlad Taltos series ] 
[07:30] <lamont> jdub: destroy head, decapitate, or prevent those who care from recovering the body for at least 3 days. :-)
[07:30] <lamont> s/head/brain/
[07:33] <jdub> good god
[07:34] <jdub> Kamion: what on earth is this installer change for?
[07:34] <Kamion> jdub: -> sabdfl
[07:34] <Kamion> 15:19 <sabdfl> main things i'd like for next sounder are (a) username questions moved to pre-reboot, so if all goes well with x we get no post-boot questions, and (b) keybd question reintroduced (mdz's
[07:34] <Kamion>                request) with simple sane text
[07:36] <Kamion> I think Mark thought it was an easier change than it actually is; the username stuff is *relatively* straightforward as it stands, but "no post-boot questions" is non-trivial if you want a properly configured timezone
[07:37] <seb128> mdz: nautilus-cd-burner 2.8.3 released today, part of the release note : "Lock drive while burning when using HAL"
[07:37] <Kamion> 'cos tzsetup has a number of dependencies which make it tricky to run it outside /target (and I don't believe in the idea of running debconf stuff chrooted and expecting it to talk to cdebconf correctly)
[07:50] <jdub> Kamion: he said you described it as easy a few weeks back 8)
[07:51] <jdub> Kamion: was talking to him about it; we're going to do an RC on the 13th, final on the 20th
[07:51] <Kamion> jdub: he was only asking about the username question back then
[07:51] <Kamion> I didn't know the goal was "no questions post-reboot"
[07:51] <Kamion> although looking back I think I may not have been reading between the lines enough
[07:53] <jdub> ahr
[07:53] <jdub> yeah, that seemed to be the issue with the whole computer menu thing
[07:53] <jdub> "oh, if you'd meant the goal was to pull all the icons off the desktop, and figure out a ui to deal with that..."
[07:55] <thom> uh, how do i set emacs/whatever keybindings in gnome?
[07:55] <lamont> how very, um, cute.
[07:55] <lamont> sudo doesn't have /dev/tty1 open (lsof), but it's prompt goes there. sigh.
[07:56] <thom> (trying to test #1294)
[07:57] <thom> jdub/seb128: ^
[08:05] <mdz> jdub: when and where was it decided to delay the release?
[08:05] <mdz> seb128: nice!
[08:05] <jdub> mdz: was just talking to sabdfl in other channel
[08:06] <jdub> thom: used to be a dropdown in keyboard shortcuts
[08:06] <jdub> thom: guess it's gconfy now
[08:08] <thom> jdub: any idea where?
[08:09] <jdub> thom: maybe under /desktop/gnome ?
[08:09] <mdz> fabbione: so there were some problems with X?
[08:09] <sladen> Kamion: there's still the PITA that the CD needs removing, else it really would be fire and forget
[08:10] <Kamion> sladen: can't do much about that given that some systems suck the CD back in on reboot
[08:12] <lamont> Kamion: leave a foot print at the end of install, if that's there when you get to the bootup of the install disk, ask the user if his machine is one that sucks the CD back in at reboot... ??? :-)
[08:12] <sladen> Kamion: indeed.  Need a chain-loader and default-to-harddisk for that
[08:12] <thom> jdub: *shrug*
[08:13] <thom> jdub: can't see anything that looks reasonable
[08:13] <Kamion> sladen: most people will probably want to remove the CD, though; the chainloading trick would work but would be pretty nonintuitive for most people, I think, and would require a considerable delay
[08:13] <Kamion> sladen: (there's also the question of where to chainload *to*)
[08:13] <sladen> Kamion: default entry on the harddisk
[08:13] <lamont> W00T!!!!
[08:13] <Kamion> "default entry"?
[08:13] <sladen> Kamion: MBR
[08:13] <Kamion> powerpc?
[08:13] <lamont> but util-linux is fixed.
[08:14] <mdz> lamont: both the old bug and the new bug?
[08:14] <lamont> yes
[08:14] <Kamion> sladen: how would a CD determine which hard disk the BIOS was going to boot first?
[08:14] <lamont> the patch from samuel needs an open(/dev/null) after his close, and the old close restored.
[08:15] <lamont> mdz: permission to upload?
[08:15] <sladen> eg.  Windows user leave the Ubuntu CD in.  Windows boots fine.   User pops CD and selects "install" before the timeout, Ubuntu installs.   Ubuntu reboots leaving the CD in, Ubuntu second-stage boots fine.
[08:15] <mdz> lamont: diff?
[08:15] <Kamion> sladen: just all feels like too much complexity for a very delicate area of code that MUST always work
[08:15] <sladen> Kamion: it's exactly what grub on your hard disk does
[08:15] <Kamion> sladen: the current approach might not be so pretty, but it never fails
[08:16] <Kamion> no it's not ...
[08:16] <Kamion> this is the question of how to get to grub
[08:16] <Kamion> grub has a configuration file that the installer can populate; the CD does not
[08:16] <lamont> mdz: bide
[08:17] <sladen> Kamion: The Disk Boot device is selected by mapping in the BIOS.  Disk access for loading the boot loaders is all managed through the BIOS and it magically gets taken care of.
[08:17] <Kamion> let's revisit this for hoary, I don't want to countenance it for warty
[08:17] <Kamion> we are in PREVIEW FREEZE :-)
[08:18] <sladen> Kamion: (this is also the approach taken by the Windows Installer AFAICR)
[08:18] <sladen> Kamion: this is a Hoary thing, don't worry!
[08:18] <Kamion> dude, Windows only works properly half the time if you install it on the first disk. :-)
[08:18] <Kamion> d-i works in all kinds of weirdo bizarre situations and makes mince-meat of them
[08:19] <jdub> man the mailing list is insane
[08:19] <sladen> Kamion: Ah, I see your point.  User might install to  hdbX and have the grub MBR placed on hdb, but still have the BIOS set to boot from MBR on hda
[08:19] <Kamion> right
[08:19] <sivang> Kamion : i've even had less success rate with windoze than that :)
[08:20] <Kamion> they might well want it to be a secondary operating system
[08:20] <Kamion> it's a pretty common scenario for people trying out Linux
[08:20] <sladen> Kamion: v.unlikely, and the solution would probably be not to do the auto-reboot unless installation was in the 99.5% common case
[08:20] <Kamion> *so* not unlikely
[08:20] <Kamion> people do this all the time
[08:20] <Kamion> especially people unlike us who don't know up-front that they're going to commit a computer to Linux
[08:21] <Kamion> it's also hard to work out from d-i what the case where auto-reboot will work actually is
[08:21] <lamont> mdz: diff in bug#1574
[08:21] <lamont> er, 1559
[08:21] <lamont> damn bugziila
[08:23] <mdz> lamont: oh, so the ioctl works on /dev/null, too?
[08:23] <lamont> mdz: no.
[08:23] <mdz> lamont: what is that fd used for?
[08:23] <lamont> the ioctl just makes sure that the tty we open to do the ioctl doesn't land on fd0
[08:24] <thom> seriously, if anyone has a small nuclear device so i can do the world a favour and remove the mozilla foundation from the map, please do let me know
[08:24] <lamont> mdz: and then you don't wind up with tty1 showing up in ps aux output for a shell on /dev/tty2...
[08:24] <jdub> hrm
[08:24] <jdub> so
[08:24] <jdub> i have a package
[08:24] <jdub> with 'libpolyp0' in it
[08:24] <jdub> and i need to break out some glib2 and glib1 packages
[08:25] <jdub> so i'm thinking of libpolyp0-glib1.2
[08:25] <jdub> is that ooky?
[08:25] <lamont> er, the open(/dev/null) just makes sure that the tty we open to do the ioctl doesn't land on fd0
[08:26] <mdz> lamont: ewww
[08:26] <lamont> yeah.
[08:26] <lamont> gotta just _LOVE_ tty's in the kernel;\
[08:26] <T-Bone> =)
[08:26] <mdz> lamont: ok, go for it
[08:26] <lamont> the fall back was to just not check anymore, and declare it "too hard"
[08:27] <mdz> jdub: I thought you wanted to kill glib1
[08:28] <thom> so um, saving to "Desktop" doesn't work, but saving to /home/thom/Desktop does
[08:28] <thom> where the app is running as me, and appears to be presenting some form of "nice" interface
[08:31] <thom> OOOOK. so, when firefox says "Desktop", it means "users home directory"
[08:31] <jdub> mdz: well
[08:31] <thom> because a consistent UI is a bad UI
[08:31] <mdz> thom: did you notice if PR1 fixed that weird icon problem in the save dialog?
[08:31] <thom> mdz: it appears to, yes
[08:31] <jdub> mdz: i could be an utter fascist, and not even provide the glib1.2 bits
[08:31] <mdz> thom: cool
[08:31] <mdz> jdub: fascism R us
[08:32] <jdub> who really is going to write a new app using glib1.2 anyway
[08:32] <jdub> still
[08:32] <jdub> i need a separate glib2 package
[08:32] <jdub> libpolyp0-glib2.0
[08:32] <jdub> ^ cock or rock?
[08:33] <jdub> dbus does
[08:33] <jdub> dbus-glib-1-dev / dbus-glib-1
[08:35] <Kamion> mdz,jdub: #1165?
[08:35] <sladen> jdub: provide glib2 and wait until/if somebody files a bug against not being able to do glib1 stuff ?
[08:35] <mdz> Kamion: sorry, I thought I had already given it thumbs-up
[08:35] <jdub> sladen: mmm
[08:35] <Kamion> mdz: aha, ok, merging now
[08:36] <mdz> Kamion: oh, I remember, I had meant to reassign it to Daniel because he was doing a discover1-data upload
[08:36] <lamont> Kamion: 2.12-9 uploaded to sid
[08:36] <Kamion> mdz: he's done that now, hasn't he?
[08:36] <mdz> Kamion: yes
[08:36] <lamont> "I am taking a penalty card"
[08:36] <mdz> Kamion: I bet bugzilla gave me a list of matches or something, and I didn't notice that it hadn't gone through
[08:36] <Kamion> ok, guess I'm safe to upload then
[08:36] <mdz> yes
[08:36] <lamont>    * The I-HATE-LINUX-TTY-HANDLING Release
[08:38] <sladen> where's the feature request for rewriting  https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/NNNNN  ->  show_bug.cgi?id=NNNNN  go ?
[08:38] <Kamion> Enter new bug -> Bugzilla
[08:39] <sladen> :)
[08:39] <thom> i'm sure that'd break something utterly unrelate
[08:40] <thom> it is a mozilla project, after all
[08:40] <jdub> thom: it would break firefox translations
[08:40] <Kamion> jdub: ... on Thursdays
[08:40] <jdub> Kamion: hfsnw!
[08:40] <Kamion> ?
[08:41] <jdub> Kamion: 'holy fucken shit no way'
[08:41] <jdub> Kamion: download 'computer boy' :)
[08:41] <elmo> the firefox translations are already fucked
[08:41] <mdz> right
[08:41] <mdz> maybe rewriting bugzilla URLs would fix them
[08:42] <thom> well, i can't reproduce eugenia's firefox bug, surprisingly enough
[08:44] <mdz> didn't she already admit that she installed some random extension?
[08:45] <thom> mdz: not that i can see
[08:52] <lamont> mdz: fwiw, I'm stalling on #1433 to see what debian decides.
[08:53] <thom> ok, i need a drink after the horror of firefox
[08:53] <thom> ciao
[09:06] <elmo> hmm, should /dev/loop* exist post-install or am I still stuck in some 2.4.xx world?
[09:08] <Kamion> elmo: is the loop module loaded?
[09:09] <elmo> yah
[09:09] <elmo>  /.dev/loop* exists ... and works.. ?
[09:09] <Kamion> udev. RUN AWAY
[09:10] <elmo> MAKEDEV loop makes them in /.dev/ too :/
[09:10] <elmo> anyway, anyone know the rpm equiv of dpkg -c ?
[09:10] <elmo> short of rpm2cpio :)
[09:12] <Kamion> -qlp
[09:13] <Kamion> -qip for dpkg -I
[09:13] <elmo> thanks
[09:14] <elmo> wrong fricking ISO anyway.  hateful IBM
[09:31] <schweeb> question, sort of technical... but shouldn't your default locale be set to the language selection you chose on install?  I select en_US and it uses POSIX/C... this affects a lot of regional specific default settings, like paper size and stuff
[09:32] <lamont> Kamion: care if I fix a couple other annoyances with buildd chroot scripts>?
[09:34] <lamont> <     ln -s mawk $TARGET/usr/bin/awk
[09:34] <lamont> >     ln -sf mawk $TARGET/usr/bin/awk
[09:39] <mdz> elmo: how did nvidia-kernel-source end up in restricted when it's not in a seed?
[09:39] <mdz> it should be pushed out to universe
[09:40] <elmo> because it was part of the nvidia stuff that was uploaded in a bunch and I assumed/was told they'd all live in restricted
[09:43] <mdz> elmo: ok, please give it the boot
[09:43] <mdz> we build the module with the kernel, so there's no need to try to support that mes
[09:43] <mdz> mess
[09:44] <elmo> ok, I suppose I really should just have anastacia know about restricted
[09:50] <lamont> Kamion: care if I take the debootstrap bug from you?
[09:51] <lamont> hope not... bz doesn't always ask before just committing away... :(
[09:52] <lamont> mdz: mind if we upload a new debootstrap that has warty.buildd in it?
[09:52] <mdz> lamont: what are those for, anyway?
[09:52] <lamont> buildd chroot building
[09:52] <lamont> er, creation, even
[09:52] <lamont> debootstrap --variant=buildd warty chroot-warty http://....
[09:52] <elmo> dooooooooooooh
[09:53] <elmo> sudo needs to be Essential: yes or something similar
[09:53] <lamont> and you get the lean, mean, buildd chroot...
[09:54] <mdz> lamont: what's different about the buildd chroot?
[09:55] <lamont> well, base goes from that long list, down to >     base="apt binutils cpio cpp cpp-3.3 dpkg-dev g++ g++-3.3 gcc gcc-3.3 libc6-dev libdb4.2 libgdbm3 
[09:55] <lamont> libstdc++5-3.3-dev linux-kernel-headers make patch perl perl-modules $additional"
[09:55] <elmo> mdz: it's essential +build-essential
[09:55] <elmo> (in theory)
[09:55] <mdz> lamont: sure, why not
[09:55] <mdz> elmo: essential + build-essential + lamont's goodies for poking around in the chroot? ;-)
[09:56] <lamont> elmo: I do admit to adding buildd-essential and fakeroot to the required list...
[09:56] <lamont> mdz: no.
[09:56] <lamont> I install those _after_ I build the chroot, and not in the production chroots, in any case.
[09:56] <elmo> did anyone see my comment about sudo?
[09:56] <lamont> elmo: yes
[09:57] <lamont> what broke with it not Essential:?
[09:57] <elmo> lamont: dude, there's no root password by default
[09:57] <elmo> and if you're cleaning out a machine, it's too easy to remove sudo by accident
[09:57] <elmo> like, err, I just did on one of ours
[09:57] <lamont> ROTFL
[09:58] <lamont> any root windows around, or is it thombot-switch time?
[09:59] <elmo> no, no root windows, I'm trying to use thombot-obsoleting-ilo now
[09:59] <T-Bone> LOL
[09:59] <lamont> ah, remote console good...
[09:59] <lamont> mdz: uploading new debootstrap, then.
[10:00] <mdz> lamont: ok
[10:01] <mdz> elmo: too easy? pfft
[10:01] <elmo> how's it not?
[10:01] <mdz> elmo: we let you remove your kernel, or grub, all sorts of things that will break your system but are not essential
[10:01] <mdz> if you set a root password, you should certainly be allowed to remove sudo
[10:02] <mdz> there will certainly be people who want to
[10:02] <mdz> perhaps sudo prerm could refuse if your root password is locked
[10:12] <lamont> mdz: although sys/super/etc...
[10:12] <lamont> all universe, though.
[10:12] <mdz> echo "ROOT PASSWORD IS LOCKED -- THIS COULD BE BAD"; sleep 10
[10:15] <elmo> mdz: I think that's a good plan
[10:15] <elmo> mdz: actually it doesn't let you remove your kernel
[10:15] <elmo> I did that too, and that correctly errored out
[10:15] <elmo> and removing grub doesn't actually remove the bootloader
[10:19] <elmo> mind if I file a bug on sudo suggesting the "ROOT PASSWORD IS LOCKED, CONTINUE TO SCREW YOURSELF?? (Y/y)" prompt in prerm?
[10:21] <T-Bone> elmo: nice wording ;)
[10:22] <T-Bone> and nice set of choices too (Y/y) ;)
[10:28] <mdz> elmo: purging grub leaves /boot/grub behind?
[10:28] <mdz> elmo: file away
[10:28] <mdz> elmo: I'd prefer that it not be interactive about it, but clearly it should warn somehow
[10:30] <sivang> do we have mpg123 source package?
[10:31] <sivang> i can't seem to find any info of it using apt-cache, although it seems to be present. (many other programs depend on it)
[10:31] <T-Bone> mpg123 is non-free
[10:31] <T-Bone> apt-get install mpg123 actually gets you mpg321
[10:32] <T-Bone> hmm sorry, wrong chan
[10:33] <sivang> tnx
[10:33] <sivang> i am doing security review, so this happens to be informative ;)
[10:35] <jdub> YEAH, TAKE THAT ESOUND YOU SMEG!
[10:37] <T-Bone> o_O
[10:38] <sivang> jdub : is ESOUND giving you trouble ? ;-)
[10:38] <T-Bone> sivang: anyway, what I said was connected to debian, it might be mostly crap wrt ubuntu :P hence my "wrong chan" mention
[10:38] <jdub> sivang: no, dude
[10:39] <jdub> sivang: apart from the mess i may need to clean up as i KILL IT UNTIL IT IS DEAD
[10:40] <sivang> jdub : anything I can help you with ? 
[10:40] <sivang> ;)
[10:41] <jdub> if you want to do a security review of polypaudio, that'd be great
[10:42] <sivang> jdub :i'll look at it, almost 1 pkg to go for 2004 universe
[10:45] <Kamion> lamont: go for it, on both counts
[10:46] <Kamion> mdz: how about sudo prerm refusing if it's being run within sudo?
[10:46] <mdz> root has gone 184 days without being checked, check forced.
[10:46] <mdz> root: ***** REBOOT LINUX *****                                                 
[10:46] <mdz> root: 13861/124928 files (3.9% non-contiguous), 283383/497983 blocks
[10:46] <mdz>    ...fail!
[10:46] <mdz> I thought that bug was fixed
[10:46] <mdz> (fsck found no errors, made no changes, and yet it screamed at me to reboot)
[10:46] <mdz> (and rebooted)
[10:46] <mdz> Kamion: ooh, that's an interesting one :-)
[10:46] <mdz> I like it
[10:47] <schweeb> jdub: you seen this: "I don't know why and I'm not yet motivated to fix it since my views on esd are mostly unprintable."
[10:47] <schweeb> heh
[10:47] <schweeb> - Alan Cox
[10:48] <jdub> :)
[10:48] <schweeb> one of the best OSS quotes ever
[10:48] <jdub> we're gonna do it this time
[10:48] <jdub> GNOME 2.10: DEATH OF ESOUND
[10:49] <schweeb> thank god
[10:49] <schweeb> esound sounds like pure shyte
[10:50] <schweeb> although, alsa's dmix sounds pretty neat, but I couldn't get it working perfectly... some audio corruption
[10:50] <jdub> almost impossible to configure
[10:50] <schweeb> can't be any harder for a dev to set up than a gstreamer pipleine, heh
[10:51] <schweeb> *pipeline
[10:51] <schweeb> it's a lot of routing the stuff between sources, really
[10:52] <schweeb> it needs a lot more clean documentation, rather than just the simple "works for me this way on this hardware" solutions I could find
[11:02] <Kamion> - fix broken stupidity
[11:03] <Kamion> thom in a subtle mood, I see :)
[11:05] <sivang> jdub : can't find the polypaudio package. No source yet?
[11:05] <jdub> sivang: only just uploaded, so NEW
[11:06] <sivang> jdub : k
[11:07] <sivang> come to think of it, it's 30mins minimun ;) if to recall what Kamion once said
[11:08] <Kamion> the NEW queue is processed by hand, that's in addition to the usual archive delays
[11:09] <jdub> elmo: help me CRUSH esound!
[11:11] <lamont> sivang: in the worst case, non-NEW source can take 33 minutes to show up.  And binaries can take up to (worst case) 33 minutes from the time they are uploaded.
[11:11] <lamont> + whatever manual handling is needed.
[11:12] <T-Bone> lol
[11:12] <jdub> bit messy
[11:14] <seb128> jdub, mdz: here ?
[11:15] <seb128> we have a problem with nautilus-cd-burner
[11:15] <seb128> 2.8.3:
[11:15] <seb128> Lock drive while burning when using HA
[11:16] <seb128> ^ that's great
[11:16] <seb128> but ...
[11:16] <seb128>         * configure.in:
[11:16] <seb128>         Require hal with lock primitives.
[11:16] <seb128> -> 0.2.98
[11:16] <seb128> (we have 0.2.92)
[11:20] <lamont> Kamion: you still about?
[11:22] <Mithrandir> thom: nope, not yet.
[11:22] <Mithrandir> mdz: ping?
[11:24] <Kamion> lamont: yep
[11:25] <lamont> Kamion: is there somewhere trivial that I could grab a set of scripts that would allow me to create a ubuntu d-i cd?
[11:25] <lamont> that is, how does an archive turn into a bootable cd image???
[11:25] <Kamion> lamont: think "pain and suffering"
[11:25] <T-Bone> eeek
[11:26] <lamont> Kamion: No.....
[11:26] <Kamion> lamont: you can *try* with http://cdimage.ubuntulinux.org/code/debian-cd.tar.bz2 and colin.watson@canonical.com--2004/cdimage--mainline--0
[11:26] <Kamion> lamont: you'll need germinate too
[11:27] <Mithrandir> mdz: unping
[11:27] <Kamion> but it's very much a self-assembly kit right now
[11:27] <mdz> Mithrandir: pong
[11:27] <mdz> Mithrandir: unpong
[11:28] <mdz> seb128: hmm, I remember npmccallum had reservations about newer hal
[11:28] <Kamion> the cdimage tree currently contains, at top level:
[11:28] <Kamion> bin  britney  debian-cd  ftp  germinate  local  log  scratch  secret  www  {arch}
[11:28] <Kamion> bin is in the cdimage--mainline--0 arch archive above
[11:28] <seb128> mdz: he said that's a bit late, but we are stucked
[11:28] <Kamion> britney, local, secret you can ignore
[11:28] <Kamion> debian-cd is in the tarball above
[11:29] <Kamion> ftp is the archive
[11:29] <seb128> mdz: upstream just did that in a right way ... and I've no real idea on how to do this in a different one with the old hal
[11:29] <Kamion> germinate is, well, germinate
[11:29] <mdz> seb128: will you test it with the new hal?
[11:29] <Kamion> log, www are for publishing; scratch is temporary
[11:29] <seb128> mdz: I'm not uploading the new hal for the moment, perhaps better to talk with npmccallum and pitti about this
[11:30] <Kamion> lamont: when I actually get an arch archive of debian-cd, I'll put something together which stands a better chance of just working, but for now the above is about the best I can do ...
[11:30] <lamont> Kamion: that's a start, to be sure.
[11:30] <lamont> so with the tarball, you don't actually have to arch-get anything, yes?
[11:30] <mdz> seb128: agreed, but if you would test the new nautilus-cd-burner locally with the new hal, that would be great
[11:30] <mdz> npmccallum: are you here?
[11:30] <Kamion> lamont: the tarball is only debian-cd
[11:30] <Kamion> lamont: feel free to make arch mirrors of cdimage somewhere T-Bone can see, though; there's nothing private there
[11:31] <lamont> Kamion: ah, OK
[11:31] <Kamion> oh, and germinate, I guess, as long as it's only my current archive (Scott's old one has the internal wiki password in older revisions)
[11:31] <seb128> mdz: ok
[11:31] <Kamion> colin.watson@canonical.com--2004/germinate--mainline--0
[11:32] <lamont> Kamion: was wondering about germinate's status... 
[11:32] <lamont> mdz: have I mentioned how much I hate flushes?
[11:32] <Kamion> in order to do ia64, you'll need to use the 'hints' facility to override the right kernels into germinate
[11:32] <mdz> lamont: I thought we were finished with that business
[11:33] <lamont> mdz: it's the little turds that are annoying.
[11:33] <Kamion> and you'll have to edit miscellaneous bits inside debian-cd; look for 'amd64', 'i386', and 'powerpc', ignore anything mentioning 'potato', 'woody', or 'sarge', and you'll get an idea what needs changed
[11:34] <Kamion> mdz: we'd better be, we have mirrors now
[11:34] <Kamion> mdz: a flush would totally shag the mirrors :)
[11:34] <mdz> Kamion: we have users, too :-)
[11:34] <Kamion> mdz: quite
[11:39] <thom> Mithrandir: ah well
[11:40] <lamont> mdz: gnucash and several others should start building in about 25 minutes
[11:41] <mdz> lamont: excellent, thanks
[11:41] <lamont> Kamion: _we're_ done with flushes.  _I'm_ not done with _CLEANUP_ from the last ones.
[11:41] <Mithrandir> thom: I'll prod upstream
[11:41] <thom> Mithrandir: it seems they changed the layout and stuff quite drasticly, was just wondering if you'd experienced it yet
[11:42] <lamont> (since i386 builds arch-all, anything where one exists and not the other requires tender loving clubbing)
[11:42] <Kamion> lamont: heh
[11:42] <lamont> and remember, one should _never_ use vi to fix a .changes file.
[11:42] <Mithrandir> thom: ew, ok.
[11:42] <lamont> oops.
[11:42] <thom> mdz: what did I do to make you hate me? first mozilla, now php? ;-)
[11:43] <mdz> thom: nobody likes PHP :-(
[11:43] <lamont> elmo: is anything gonna bitch that there are now two _i386.changes files for libopenhbci? :(
[11:43] <mdz> thom: I figured you might at least have exposure, from Apache-land
[11:43] <thom> mdz: nup. not complaining, mind. just commenting :-)
[11:43] <thom> more so from working for a webhost before this :-)
[11:44] <lamont> mdz: as long as you don't give him ocaml, he should forgive you.
[11:47] <thom> _should_
[11:47] <lamont> lol
[11:49] <npmccallum> mdz: sorry, I was at dinner.  Whats up with hal? seb128?
[11:49] <seb128> hey npmccallum 
 we have a problem with nautilus-cd-burner
 2.8.3:
 Lock drive while burning when using HA
 ^ that's great
 but ...
         * configure.in:
         Require hal with lock primitives.
 -> 0.2.98
 (we have 0.2.92)
[11:50] <seb128> upstream did the lock for n-c-b in a right way and released today n-c-b 2.8.3
[11:50] <npmccallum> which requires a newer hal
[11:50] <npmccallum> ?
 <seb128> -> 0.2.98
[11:50] <mdz> npmccallum: also, what's the status of openoffice.org issues?
[11:51] <sivang> mdz : got my mail?
[11:51] <mdz> sivang: yes, thanks
[11:51] <sivang> mdz : no prob. feel free to comment me about it.
[11:51] <npmccallum> mdz: I'm doing those tonight, It takes a big chunk of time to do those (ooo takes forever)
[11:51] <npmccallum> seb128: I have no problem with a newer hal, though it will require a newer dbus
[11:52] <sivang> anyways boys, I must take a break, that nasty virus is back again.. (dizzy dizzy...) lamont you ok btw?
[11:52] <seb128> npmccallum: do you see any other solution for n-c-b ?
[11:53] <npmccallum> seb128: just our own locking implimentation... but that won't have nearly the ammount of test as hal will
[11:54] <sivang> anyway, hope he feeling alright ;) night everybody Zzz..
[11:54] <seb128> npmccallum: what do you think it's better ?
[11:54] <mdz> npmccallum: make sure that it meets the deadline for sounder 9
[11:54] <lamont> sivang: never quite sure...
[11:55] <npmccallum> seb128: I think the right way to fix it is to do what upstream is doing
[11:56] <npmccallum> seb128: there isn't any way to fix it without a fairly major change (and it is a fairly major bug)
[11:56] <seb128> yeah, I agree
[12:00] <npmccallum> mdz: I still need to know what to do with the ubuntu-sounds package (license issue)