=== mdz [~mdz@69-167-148-207.vnnyca.adelphia.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
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jdubtseng: around?12:48
Kamionmdz: #1388 is filed somewhere in Debian too. It's still got joeyh scratching his head over the correct answer. There are some possible hacks, but he'd like to think about them.01:06
mdzKamion: we should do something about it for Warty01:06
KamionOne hack would be having the noninteractive frontend set the seen flag if and only if $ENV{DEBCONF_I_AM_RUNNING_INSIDE_DEBOOTSTRAP} or something is set01:06
mdzmy feeling is that when the package is configured non-interactively, the questions should be marked seen01:06
mdzI think that makes sense regardless of whether debootstrap is part of the equation01:07
Kamionmdz: I suggested that to Joey, but he's not entirely sure about some of the ways people are using noninteractive on their own systems01:07
KamionI tend to trust Joey's judgement in these matters ...01:07
mdzJoey has no incentive to make a determination on this issue before the Warty release, but we must01:07
Kamionlook, I'm not saying we shouldn't, OK?01:08
KamionI'm trying to avoid having to support a fork in debconf that's too evil, by getting something supportable done before the Warty release instead01:08
KamionI'm not trying to put it off until post-warty01:09
Kamionsince I have the debconf author sitting ten feet from me, talking to him is worthwhile :-)01:11
mdzdoes Sarge not have any debconf-using packages in base?01:12
mdzhmm, surely it does01:13
Kamionyes, it does, that's why the bug is also filed in the Debian BTS01:14
KamionI'm just looking for it as Joey asked me to now01:14
mdzI'll import it into bugzilla and mark the other one as a dupe01:25
Kamionfollowed up to the new one with current brain state01:32
Kamionwill fix it when I get back01:32
mdzKamion: thanks01:39
mdzKamion: how is the meeting going?01:39
Kamionvery well, lots of stuff fixed01:42
KamionI've spent most of the meeting trying to get gtk d-i up and running, still wrestling with directfb unfortunately01:43
Kamionbut talking to Sven has made it possible to agree on stuff to remove from the powerpc CDs to make them halfway sane, and the appropriately hideous death of the root-2 floppy01:43
Kamionoh, and I managed to boot my powerbook from a USB stick, which will speed up my d-i testing a lot in the future 'cos I won't have to burn CDs01:44
mdzmy laptop seems to quite happily boot from a USB CD-ROM01:57
mdzso I assume it would work with a USB stick, too, though I don't have one01:57
mdzI found out quite by surprise; I left a Warty install CD in the USB drive accidentally when I rebooted01:58
azeemmy laptop (R51) just refuses to go beyond the IBM logo when a USB stick is plugged in :-/01:58
Kamionbooting a powermac from USB requires Runes Of Power02:00
=== azeem chuckles
Kamionunless your OF defines a useful devalias, which mine doesn't; I suspect it's rare to find that02:01
jdubKamion: do we know of any successful installs on pre-toilet-seat powerpc/g3 laptops?02:21
Kamionjdub: are there any such which are newworld?02:23
Kamionif you gave a model name rather than "toilet-seat", I could check :-)02:23
jdubwhat are black g3 powerbooks?02:23
jdubmaybe the model is "wall street"?02:23
Kamionwallstreet is oldworld02:24
Kamion(and we don't support oldworld)02:24
Kamionthe first newworld laptop was the Lombard, I believe02:25
Kamionthat was a powerbook though ... your iBook might be the Bondi?02:25
KamionI confess to not being able to keep track of a lot of the earlier model names02:25
Kamionaha, fear our documentation :-)02:27
Kamionit's not up-to-date about a lot of things, but anything marked "powermac-OldWorld" there is unsupported02:28
=== jdub_ [~jdub@home.waugh.id.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel
jdubazeem: so03:14
jdubazeem: basically nothing should be listed in shlibs?03:15
=== jdub is deferring the RPATH stuff, very odd ;)
azeemwell, it is my opinion that if your package does not have any regular shared libraries, but only plugin-type stuff, shlibs should not be used03:15
azeembut I'd be interested in the opinion of the demi-gods in here03:16
mdzjdub: context?03:16
Kamionazeem: agreed03:16
Kamion(without context ...)03:16
mdzshared objects used as plugins don't need shlibs entries03:16
=== lamont made failure buildlogs red on http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/byDate
mdzthey should have shlibdeps though03:16
jdubyeah, these are all dlopened plugins03:17
jdubshlibdeps is all fine though03:17
mdzand ldd -r says they're clean?03:17
jdubclean being no undefined symbols?03:17
jdubthey have undefined symbols03:19
jdubbut those are all in the same package03:19
mdzthe plugins should be linked with any dependent shared libraries03:20
azeemjdub: polypaudio-alsa does not seem to depend on libpolypaudio0 though, which I guess provides the missing symbols03:20
mdzif they need symbols from the binary which loads them (RTLD_GLOBAL or whatnot), that's a bit annoying, but not obviously wrong03:20
jdubazeem: mmm03:21
jdubazeem: though that's a special case, being a different package03:21
jdubazeem: but it does mean there's something wrong with the plugins (and why they have undefined symbols)03:21
azeemwell, I didn't check thoroughly03:22
jdubthis totally assumes rpath03:22
jdubazeem: 03:23
jdub$ dpkg-deb -I ../polypaudio-alsa_0.5.1-1ubuntu1_i386.deb  | grep Depends03:23
jdub Depends: libasound2 (>> 1.0.5), libc6 (>= 2.3.2.ds1-4)03:23
jdub^ wrong03:23
azeemyou might touch the border of cdbs' applicability here03:24
jdubit's in svn :)03:24
azeemanyway, I'm going to bed now, *tired*03:24
jdubnight, thanks again :)03:24
jdubThe following NEW packages will be installed:03:24
jdub  db4.2-util libapr0 libpcre3 libruby1.8 libsvn0 libswig1.3.21 subversion03:24
mdzjdub: what do you think about creating non-english ubuntu discussion lists?03:39
mdzI didn't think we'd need them so soon03:39
mdzthere seems to at least be an -es contingent who would appreciate it03:40
jdubmdz: i asked mark about it, he's happy with ubuntu-users-$LANG03:41
jdubi'll do the -es one now03:41
jdubi'll ask carlos to admin it ;)03:42
jduband find other moderators03:42
jdubi'm glad i set the defaults from ubuntu-users03:48
jdubbecause changing the default language makes the list hard to admin ;-)03:48
Mithrandirhmm, what's up with bugzilla?  No new bugs for me the whole day..03:58
tsengjdub: here i am04:12
jdubtseng: the mono depends in the tomboy example i sent you was kinda wrong04:15
jdubtseng: it should really depend on mono-jit | mono-mint04:15
tsengi think you meant mono-jit or mono-minut04:15
tsengi knew that but i had to go to work04:15
=== tseng offers no guarantee on his own repo, as im learning on it atm
jdubit's good04:16
jduborph (alex, author of tomboy) is way pleased :)04:17
tsengya works pretty well04:17
tsengoh neat04:17
tseng20:14 #ubuntu: < whiprush> woo tseng fan club.04:17
tsengim famous or something.. barely did anything04:18
tsengall the credit goes to the debian devs.04:18
jdubmdz: is ndiswrapper a module?04:19
jdubmdz: so it can be in restricted?04:19
tsengjdub: yeah its a module + a bit of userland04:19
tsengthere is an app to install the inf from the windows driver04:19
=== jdub knows what it is, wonders what our plans are
mdzjdub: yes, it is a module, but it's GPL04:21
mdzand so there's no reason to demote it to restricted04:21
jdubmdz: linux-image == supported, restricted == unsupported04:21
jdubthat's a HUGE reason04:22
mdzrestricted != unsupported04:22
mdzuniverse == unsupported04:22
mdzrestricted is "supported the best we can given the restrictions"04:22
jdubrestricted is unsupported04:22
jdubit's just best efforts that the packages will build and work04:22
jduband we *cannot* support ndiswrapper04:22
mdzMark was quite clear on this point in Oxford04:22
jdubi thought he was too04:23
mdzthe userland part of ndiswrapper will print scary warnings04:23
jdubunsupported, best-efforts04:23
mdzsupported, best-efforts :-)04:23
jdubi'll mail04:23
jdubbecause this is senseless04:23
mdzthe only clear use case for restricted is binary-only drivers04:24
mdzwe've been over and over it04:24
jdubndiswrapper is an enabler for binary-only drivers04:25
jdubbut that's a secondary issue04:26
mdzbut it is itself an open source project04:26
mdzyes, it's a gross hack and it sucks04:26
jduband fundamentally unsupportable04:27
=== tseng notices that only some bits of asterisk are in universal
tsengi might have to fix that next week.04:43
lamontevening folks05:08
jdubyo lamont 05:09
lamontdieman about?05:09
lamont'sup jdub?05:09
jdublunchtime is up05:09
jdubbut i have not figured out what to eat05:09
lamontalmost bed time05:09
lamontI hate the final week before a convention.05:09
lamontbut nowhere near as much as I hate plumbing05:13
lamontmdz: having a hard time picturing 1784 as warty critical, especially since mark and I agreed to discuss auto-config of SASL/TLS post-warty05:17
lamontand certainly not grave for debian..05:18
lamontset to important05:18
lamontmostly to avoid arguing about why I think it's really a wishlist bug05:18
lamontor dup of any one of about 6 others like it.. :-(05:18
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jdublamont: what are the postfix requests?05:49
lamont"grave: after I install postfix-tls, I have to actually configure SASL if I want to use it"05:56
lamonts/SASL/TLS/ as needed...05:56
lamontit's not that it does it wrong, it's that it doesn't do it...05:57
tsenglike, add users to a sasl db, or have it use the system passwd file?05:57
lamontso once we have hoary opened up, that guy what knows certificates and such is gonna walk me through making postfix-tls autoconfigure sasl and/or tls....  But not before warty..  Or sarge.05:58
lamontjdub: hrm.. this bug came from your corner of the world...06:02
schweebso, what's the accepted way of turning laptop-mode off in ubuntu? because I'm  fairly sure that laptop-mode is fucking up my hard drive.06:10
schweebwill file a bugreport, if I can find some diagnostic info or something to prove it06:10
schweebbut twice, my hard drive has made a spinup or spindown sound, and then anytime I try to access the HD, I just got an I/O error06:13
schweebreboot, fine... then it happened again06:13
jdublamont: ahr.06:17
mdzlamont: that's clearly not RC06:27
mdzenhancement, Hoary06:27
lamontI'll downgrade the debian bug further later.. :)06:29
lamontmdz: how are we marking hoary stuff?06:30
mdzlamont: target milestone: hoary hedgehog06:30
lamontor are we just assuming that things beyond warty will likely get revisited for hoary?06:30
mdzassuming mark said it should be on the list for hoary06:31
mdzotherwise, it doesn't need a milestone06:31
mdzor we need a "someday" milestone :-)06:31
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mdzjdub: your "spanish list" email was duplicated :-/06:47
mdzbut not "burning ISO image"06:48
mdzsomething weird is going on with your mail06:48
mdzthey have different message-ids06:48
mdzMessage-Id: <1096172902.4733.104.camel@localhost.localdomain>06:48
mdzMessage-Id: <1096172903.4733.105.camel@localhost.localdomain>06:48
=== lamont sleeps
danielsfabbione: morning07:29
fabbionemdz: are you still around?07:32
=== sivang [~pooh@CBL217-132-76-165.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #ubuntu-devel
sivangWhere would be the right place to suggest packages for base install? pptp should be included for those on countries who must use a pptp dialer to access broadband..09:15
sivangi had to go back to xp home to manually download the .deb file for pptp, and ofcourse I would have to resolve the dependecies by hand.09:17
thomschweeb: remove it from power.sh10:57
sivangKamion : around?11:20
Kamionsivang: yes?11:21
jdubmdz: bong11:23
jdubsivang: pptp-linux will be on the cd11:23
jdubsivang: not installed by default, but on the cd11:23
sivangjdub : it's not currently, right?11:37
sivangKamion : would it be reasonable to incorporate into base-install or post, a pptp confiugration question, just for those who lake DHCP authenticated internet broadband, who _do_ wish to update from the net?11:43
sivangKamion : I'd like to try a go at it myself, however what would be the willingness to add _yet_another question to it?11:44
sivangKamion : or even adding it along side the "ppp" d-i configuration scree.11:46
azeemwell, having an easier way to configure pptp would be nice (if this is not the case already), but I doubt that the user-base is large enough to warrent an additional question anybody would see11:47
sivangazeem : meaning people would miss it?11:48
sivangazeem : moreover, we've had several problems streamlining pptp connection in israel in various distribs, debian has it going with a script that somebody wrote, and I improved, which I can adjust to all internet providers here. Would make it nice to have this built in :-)11:51
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mjg59Is there any reason apm isn't loaded by default?12:57
=== sivang [~pooh@CBL217-132-253-186.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #ubuntu-devel
sivangdoes anybody know how to disable that freakin' beep when in pure console mode? this thing's driving me crazy..:)01:15
sivangi disabled it for my debian sid long ago, but forgot how it goes.01:15
Mithrandir: tfheen@yiwaz ~ > cat .inputrc 01:16
Mithrandirset bell-style visible01:16
sivangthat would be great01:17
=== sivang is still fighting to make his warty connect using pptp to the israeli broadband.
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=== Topic for #ubuntu-devel: Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu
=== Topic (#ubuntu-devel): set by mdz at Mon Sep 20 07:48:40 2004
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=== T-Bone is now known as T-Gone
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=== Capri [~makolb@mnch-d9ba47c3.pool.mediaWays.net] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Bye]
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mdzfabbione: here07:59
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=== lamont giggles at fabbione
lamont<T-Bone> stupid xfree maintainer:09:27
lamont<T-Bone> /usr/bin/make -C build-tree/xc WORLDOPTS="" IMAKE_DEFINES="-DXFree86CustomVersion='\"Ubuntu 4.3.0.dfsg.1-6ubuntu21 20040926054320 root@gropaf.esiee.fr\"' -DBuildSpecsDocs=NO -DBuildFonts=NO" World > logs/make_world.build.log 2>&109:27
lamont<T-Bone> make: *** [stampdir/build]  Terminated09:27
lamont<T-Bone> Build killed with signal 15 after 150 minutes of inactivity09:27
azeemit's a good way to identify doorstop architectures09:29
lamontazeem: hppa is _not_ a doorstep architecture, dammit. :-)09:30
azeemwell, my hppa box is09:32
azeem(with the stress on "my")09:32
lamontwhat model?09:37
=== lamont contemplates filing a wishlist bug against metacity for 'focus follows users attention/eyes'
azeem512/40 or something?09:39
azeemit's lying around in the basement, haven't touched it for a year, because back then (running woody, kernel 2.2), it decided to freeze every couple of days for no apparent reason09:40
lamont712/60 I could believe09:40
lamontpizza-box sized?09:40
azeemyeah, that's it09:40
=== lamont has one of those kicking around here somewhere, he thinks.
lamontmy firewall is a B18009:41
azeemI have to admit I got it for free because the university dumped it, a friend of mine picked it up, couldn't connect a monitor to it and then wanted to throw it away09:41
azeemso the hardware might be broken09:41
lamontnah 712's are dog slow.09:55
azeemJens Schmalzing sent me a mail today that he installed potato on my father's old Mac SE/30 :)09:57
azeem*that's* dog slow :)09:57
=== lamont one time put winblows 95 on a 386 w/16MB (back when)
lamontbunch of folks said you couldn't do that...10:00
azeemI remember I got royally pissed off by Microsoft when I upgraded my 386 from 4 to 8MB because the preview releases said Windows95 would run fine on it, and when it released, you needed a much better system10:02
lamontthat machine had 15 minute boot times.  Literally10:08
lamontGrumble. No jpilot happiness with USB sybc.10:13
lamontso, how do I get evo to honor the categories on my palm...10:16
lamontaddress book, that is..10:16
azeemwhat kind of palm do you have?10:17
lamonttungsten C10:22
azeemlamont: AFAIK does the pilot-link stuff not handle the "new" PalmOS 4.x(?) features. I know it doesn't handle birthdays in contacts on my mother's Tungsten E10:24
lamontwas justing jpilot, talking to a serial dock...10:25
lamontbut I just gave the serial doc to my wife...10:26
lamonthence I need to figure out USB...10:26
=== lamont upgrades his machine, just to stay current.
=== lamont reboots, for completeness
=== Mithrandir starts compiling coreutils on a microVAX running netbsd 1.4. I think it takes more time than lamont takes to reboot.
Mithrandir.. to run the configure script.10:31
=== lamont [~lamont@mix.mmjgroup.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
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lamontand hotsync works again. yippee10:41
=== Mithrandir notes said configure script has output about ten more lines since lamont rebooted.
lamontUSB sync is much faster than 9600 baud rs232 sync, too. :-)10:42
Mithrandirgod, I'm glad it caches the results.10:42
lamontyou doing the microvax-ubuntu port, then?10:42
Mithrandirso far, I'm compiling coreutils to get rid of a cronmail I've been getting for half a year.10:44
MithrandirI wonder if mark would _really_ buy the hardware to do such a port. :)10:44
lamontMithrandir: he requires a _credible_ support plan. :-)10:45
lamontwould take a double dozen machines just to _BUILD_ the beast every 6 months, I expect. :-)10:45
Mithrandirwe're using it in production at the computer club at the university -- that uVAX is our primary nameserver.10:46
lamontMithrandir: you should steal azeem's 712... It'll scream!10:46
Mithrandirwe have a bunch of those as well.10:46
Mithrandirapart from the fact that it's hell to log into, it's a nice box.10:48
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Mithrandirhiya srbaker 10:55
srbakerso did anyone else start looking into the ubuntu being really slow on toshiba lappies?10:55
Mithrandirit's still fast on my gf's :)10:55
=== T-Gone is now known as T-Bone
T-Bonelamont: ping?11:20
T-Bonelamont: good news: both sbuilds are still running11:21
T-Bonelamont: and for zsh, my mistake: sbuild wasn't killed. Looked more or like "stuck", had to kill -9 all processes11:21
=== lamont is up to #420: totem
lamontah, ok11:21
azeemmrvn has reported problems with building zsh as well11:22
MithrandirT-Bone: zsh has a problem being autobuilt, we see it on amd64 as well11:22
T-BoneMithrandir: good to know. It's now in final position in my sbuild list11:22
azeemT-Bone: are you are using the sbuild from db.debian.org?11:22
T-Bonelamont: #350 on ia6411:22
T-Boneazeem: right11:22
MithrandirT-Bone: it should build fine if you SIGCONT it.11:23
lamontT-Bone: my xfree86 died (ia64 only here) for lack of disk space. :-(11:23
T-Bonelamont: failed on ia64 are: cyrus-sasl2, enchant, libcaca, lsb-release, mysql-dfsg, ntp, pbuilder, perl_5.8, and syck11:24
lamontand a bunch of gnome build-dep issues, I expect.11:24
T-Bonelamont: lol. This shouldn't happen here (20G free)11:24
lamontsasl2 will be a pain for us - what was the failure11:24
T-Bone[varenet@envy ~] $ grep ^Built logs/xfree86_4.3.0.dfsg.1-6ubuntu21_20040926-1716  11:25
T-BoneBuilt successfully11:25
lamontah, that was hppa that timed out,eh?11:25
T-Bonelamont: right11:25
lamontfabbione: mail logs are all happy with length now - You can quit redirecting.. :-)11:25
T-Boneit's imho plain stupid to redirect all output to a file11:25
T-Bonelamont: i wonder how this would do on really _slow_ archs (m68k, arm and friends)11:26
lamontthat was a hack for the warty buildd's of a while back.11:26
T-Boneconfig.status: creating man/Makefile11:26
T-Bonemalloc: ../bash/dispose_cmd.c:230: assertion botched11:26
T-Bonefree: called with unallocated block argument11:26
T-BoneStopping myself..../configure: line 32173: 22342 Aborted                 $SHELL $CONFIG_STATUS $ac_config_status_args11:26
T-Bonemake: *** [stampdir/config-stamp]  Error 111:26
T-BoneBuild finished at 20040926-044611:26
T-BoneFAILED [dpkg-buildpackage died] 11:26
lamontlog > 10MB --> bounce --> wait for lamont to manually fix it.11:26
=== T-Bone goes like "Ouch, really ouch man"
lamontt-bone: that's a bash bug11:26
lamontif bash is already built, install that in the chroot11:27
lamontthen find all of the ones that died with that error, and retry them.11:27
lamontthat is, once the run finishes...11:27
T-Boneit's not already built11:27
T-Bonelamont: #340 on hppa11:29
T-Bone350 actually11:29
T-Bonelamont: failed on hppa are: enchant, lsb-release, mozilla-thunderbird, pbuilder and xfree (because of timeout)11:30
azeemheh, pbuilder detects it's being built by sbuild and cops out? *g*11:30
lamont# Some packages may exceed the general timeout (e.g. redirecting output to11:31
lamont# a file) and need a different timeout. Below are some examples.11:31
lamont%individual_stalled_pkg_timeout = (11:31
lamont        xfree86 => 600,11:31
lamontin .sbuildrc11:31
lamontazeem: nah - pbuilder builds pbuilder_..._all.deb, but claims to be arch: any11:32
lamontso it's ftbfs, but we don't care.11:32
T-Bonelamont: http://gropaf.esiee.fr/~varenet/11:32
lamontazeem: yea11:32
azeemusing a source builder from somebody who confuses 'any' and 'all' would make me uncomfortable I guess ;(11:34
azeemeh, :-/ or something like that11:34
T-Bonelamont: i've put some stats, updated hourly, and access to the logs folder there. Setting up the same on envy ;)11:37
T-Bonelamont: http://envy.esiee.fr/~varenet/  -- There you are. Easier than ssh ;)11:40
T-Boneif you need anything else useful there, let me know :)11:40
T-Bonehmm. i'll add a reminder of the arch, too ;)11:40
T-Bonelamont: fwiw, 2.4 is definitely much more stable than 2.6 on ia6411:41
lamonton the bright side, warty _does_ support installing 2.411:41
T-Bonelol, that's a relief ;)11:42
srbakerfuck.  i wanted to chase down the toshiba problems today, but i do'nt think i'm going to get to11:43
=== lamont spends a while, then notices that .gz != .py, sighs, bangs head on wall.
=== T-Bone spreads some nails on the wall... runs away!
srbakerdoes ubuntu use gksudo where debian uses gksu?11:49
srbakerthe thing i like about ubuntu is exactly what Edd said.  "ubuntu gives me a system that is exactly how i would have configured my debian system"11:59

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