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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Kamion] : Ubuntu Community Council Meeting -- 2004-09-30 1600UTC || Agenda at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
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sivanghmm , has the meeting concluded already?06:00
Keybukhasn't started yet06:00
sivangk, I ought to get myself a UTC aware watch on a panerl or somethig ;-)06:00
sabdflhey everybody06:00
sivanghi sabdfl!06:01
pittiHi sabdfl06:01
sivanggreets , pitti!06:01
makosivang: no, about to start06:01
sabdflmorning / afternoon / evening / night all06:01
sabdfljust calling elmo...06:02
=== mako has been "auditing" the governance webpages
makosimple clarifications i can do on my own but i had a couple issues i wanted to bring up06:02
sabdflany additions to the agenda while we get everyone together?06:03
makoi think that is part of the second item06:03
sabdflCommunityCouncilAgenda on the wiki06:03
mako(link in the topic)06:03
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sabdflhey james06:04
sabdflok, i think we have everyone06:04
sabdflKamion: ?06:04
sabdflok all set06:05
makoexcellent! :)06:05
sabdfllet's start with team structures, leaders and goals06:05
=== sivang is glad he made it back home at exactly the right time.
sabdflhas everyone reviewed what's on the site?06:05
Keybukno jdub again?  tsk.06:05
sabdflmaybe we should introduce ourselves too06:06
sabdfli'm mark shuttleworth, chief cook at the lunchpad06:06
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danielsKeybuk: to be fair, it's 2am here06:07
sivangisn't there also a security team? 06:07
sabdflsponsor of the project, gatherer of linux lovers from all timezones ;-)06:07
Keybukdaniels: he's usually up by now <g>06:07
sabdflmako: over to you06:07
sivangsabdfl : that's for sure ;)06:07
makoi'm Benjamin Mako Hill, long free software troublemaker (in teh good way) and community dude for ubuntu06:07
sabdflKamion: 06:08
mako"You may know me from such films as, "Ubuntu Traffic"'06:08
KamionI'm Colin Watson, installer team leader06:08
sabdfland "The guy who got arrested because he LOOKED guilty of something"06:08
Kamionfairly long-time Debian guy06:08
sabdflerm, that's mako i was referring to, not kamion06:08
Kamionhey, I've got the suspicious long hair too06:09
KeybukKamion justs gets stopped and searched at airports, and then has things confiscated06:09
sabdflelmo_: 06:09
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elmo_I'm James Troup, long term source of all evil in Debian.  you may know me from such debian-devel-announce gems as "Serious Problems With ...."06:09
sivangguys, is this a mad tv presentation or what ? ;-)06:09
sabdflsivang: you should see the conferences06:09
sivangsabdfl : they get better?06:09
sabdflok, any guests want to introduce themselves?06:09
sivangI'd like to ;)06:10
sabdflgo ahead06:10
sivangI am Sivan Green, a long time computer enthusiast for Isreal, and a former debian addict, now a ubuntu can't live without.06:10
sabdflground rules06:11
danielsDaniel Stone, Ubuntu distro team member, fd.o Release Manager, random X hacker, tla pusher, have had no disparaging emails written about me on debian-devel-announce06:11
pittiMartin Pitt; currently responsible for general distro security and hotplugging issues, and also a Debian guy (mainly PostgreSQL)06:11
sabdflit's an open meeting, everyone's welcome to contribute (we'll see if that stays sustainable as the crowd grows)06:11
theantixI'm Ryan Thiessen, longtime Linux user and big fan of the ideas (and implementation) of Ubuntu06:11
tsenghiya, I'm Brandon Hale, most famous as a Gentoo developer, or Ubuntu mono packages.06:11
sabdflwe aim for consensus within the council and with any team thats responsible for an isse06:11
KeybukScott James Remnant, Ubuntu Technical Board member and Python Team leader, Debian dpkg maintainer, cute fez-wearing monkey.06:12
elmo_daniels: dude, you forgot: Kernel Hacker06:12
danielselmo_: ('Linux Kernel Hacker')06:12
sabdfldaniels: yet. you can aspire to greatness too.06:12
sivangI would like to thank Kamion _again_ , for having Jeff invite me to all this fun, before preview relese ;)06:12
sabdflso, on with business06:13
sabdflteam structures, leaders, goals06:13
sabdfleveryone seen the web site?06:13
makoi did a quick one through06:13
makoare there any teams that don't have leaders?06:13
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Kamionyep, similar questions to mako about governing board refs I think06:14
sabdfli think http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/teams/06:14
makoIA64 Port Team?06:14
makowhich is not off the ground06:14
Kamionwondering about powerpc team but perhaps I have enough work to do :-)06:14
Kamionmako: useful to have there as the first non-company one though06:14
sabdflKamion: let's see if we can find another volunteer06:14
danielssabdfl: um, so about the community council structure06:14
pittion http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/teams/ there's no security team06:14
Kamionpitti: good call06:15
sabdfldaniels: can you bring it up at the end once we've worked through everything else?06:15
makoan oversight perhaps06:15
danielssabdfl: sure06:15
sabdflok, will add a security team, who is the leader?06:15
danielssabdfl: oh sorry, missed the 'team' in structures/leaders/goals06:15
makomdz would be the name that jumps to mind06:15
makounless he doesn't want it and/or someone else does06:16
sabdflsure, but i'm concerned mdz may have taken on superhuman tasks already :-)06:16
elmo_pitti then06:16
Kamionif mdz is too busy, then pitti is the other obvious candidate06:16
elmo_he's pretty much a mini-mdz06:16
pittiI'm not opposed to that06:16
sivangpitti seems the reasonable choice ;)06:16
pittielmo_: thanks :-)06:16
elmo_pitti: you need to learn to climb walls tho dude, like the Master06:16
sabdflpitti: would you at least be interesting in being on the team?06:17
pittisabdfl: in any case!06:17
pittisabdfl: as I said, I'm willing to take the team lead, unless mdz wants it06:17
makoso how about this for a proposal: we let mdz and pitti come back with a recommendation for leader06:17
Kamionworks for me06:18
sabdflok, let's see how mdz feels, he may want to work with you a little longer before handing that responsibility over06:18
sabdflok done, i'll put that on the site now06:18
pittisabdfl: that's why I did not step forward immediately06:18
sabdflany other team suggestions?06:19
sabdflmatthew garrett has agreed to be team lead of the laptop team, and thom may to lead the server team06:19
Kamionyay mjg5906:20
sivangwhat about a documentation team? or is it premature for this?06:20
sabdflsivang: good call06:20
makosivang: very good idea06:20
daniels(desktop?) usability team?06:20
makosivang: you volunteering? :)06:20
makodaniels: there is a desktop team06:20
sabdfli'll put that team up, but it may take a while to find the right lead for that one06:20
sivangmako : hmm, ofcourse !06:20
elmo_^-- might be worth leeching team ideas from that06:21
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sabdflhey matthew, was just using your name in vain06:21
makomjg59: IRT the laptop team06:21
mjg59Ah, cool06:22
sabdflany other suggestions for teams?06:22
makomjg59: your team TOTALLY has the best webpage :)06:22
sabdflthanks mako :-)06:22
makoi18n/l10n :)06:23
danielsmako: url?06:23
sabdflspeaking of which, lu says we should be all set for web site editing by monday06:23
makothat was a question/suggestion06:23
sabdflwhich will parallelise the thing somewhat06:23
makodaniels: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/teams/laptop06:23
sivangI also though about a user support team, however I am not sure for how it shall function. and ofcourse we should have a QA team also, for later on the project.06:23
danielsmako: right, ta06:23
makosivang: i thought of that too06:24
Kamiona QA team needs careful thought to avoid turning into Debian's QA team06:24
sabdflKamion: what do we need to avoid?06:24
sivangmako : sorry, i've probably missed your mail on the list.06:24
Kamionwhich is a good idea and has the effect of mentoring a lot of new useful developers, but really doesn't do much sensible QA06:24
makoi think user support may not be teh best thing handled by a community team with a lead and such06:24
Kamionlargely because of the difficulty of doing work across all packages in Debian06:25
pittiI think we all should provide user support06:25
makopitti: clearly06:25
sivangmako : well yes, it can be everyone of us accidently on the channel ;) not much of team.06:25
Kamionpitti: user support tends to keep us honest06:25
sabdflyes, it's one of the great advantages of open source06:25
pittiKamion: it takes too much working hours away, but nevertheless I think it is important06:25
sabdfl(though it can lead to early burnout)06:25
sabdflso let's defer a decision on a qa team till we have volunteers and a process proposal06:26
Kamionsabdfl: I think sivang's right, it's too early yet to need to worry about a QA team, it can be a general distro team task for now06:26
sabdflagreed. mako, elmo?06:26
makosounds good06:26
sabdflwhat about i18n and l10n?06:26
danielshow about an external relations team that managed relationships with debian, gnu arch, and other external projects we have a close relationship with?06:27
sabdflshould be high priority given our commitments06:27
makoi suggested it and i think it makes a lot of sense06:27
sabdflmako: which?06:27
danielssabdfl: mako suggested i18n/l10n06:27
makosabdfl: just agreeing with you06:27
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sabdflah, ok, i'm just slow, and thought i'd had an original idea for a sec. doh06:28
makotrying not to reflect on how great my idea is without disclaiming the fact06:28
sabdfli've had a preliminary discussion with daf on that front06:28
KamionI'm concerned that if we start up an i18n/l10n team before some of our company infrastructure is ready to support them they may end up duplicating a lot of work06:28
Kamionif that infrastructure is ready to go, I'm all for it06:28
makowe already are having i18n bugs that are just getting assigned to me or to others06:29
Kamiondaniels: sounds potentially connected with PR etc.06:29
makoinput methods, etc06:29
sabdflKamion: daf is concerned that we might lose momentum if we *don't* have some sort of structure to channel the good energy the preview created06:29
makoand quite honestly, it *needs* to be a team06:29
danielsKamion: you could define it to either be merely relationships with open source projects, or handling all external relations06:29
makobecause i don't know a thing  about input into the vast majority of languages :)06:29
Kamionsabdfl: yes, it's two-way ... if daf's ready, that's great, let's go06:29
sabdflwe will probably initially just have an outlet for l10n patches more than infrastructure06:30
sabdflbut rosetta is in alpha: rosetta.shuttleworthfoundation.org06:30
danielsKamion: open source on its own is a reasonably large swathe -- debian, python?, gnome, arch, kde?, x, kernel, et al; anything we use/extend/whatever.06:30
makoeven if it's just patches, input methods, locales, fonts, it's still worth it06:30
sabdfland will be usable in a few weeks, i'm sure06:30
Kamioni18n team leader?06:31
makoKamion, sabdfl: but we're talking about more than just translation as well06:31
makoalthough that is the biggest piece probably06:31
sabdflKamion: daf?06:31
makodaf would be great06:31
makoif he's interested in taking it on06:31
sabdflhe just headed out the door for wales, will catch him on irc later06:31
sabdflcan we call it the translation team rather than the l10n team?06:32
makojordi mallach may be interested as well06:32
Kamionsabdfl: there are lots of non-translation issues, hence the i18n/l10n label06:32
KamionI don't know whether they make sense as a single team, may or may not06:33
sabdflunderstood, but it's an overarching responsibility to "help Ubuntu be usable by all communities"06:33
makoKamion:  i think at this point they probably do06:33
makowe can split it when it looks like too big a job06:33
sabdflok, as long as we have a "translation team" where newbies with an interest can begin06:33
Kamionthis sort of thing is why symlinks were invented :-)06:34
sabdflnow about team processes06:34
sabdflcurrently the plan is that teams would present proposals to the council / tech board06:34
danielssabdfl: external relations?06:34
makoright, and the leader can come up with the "Canonical" name as whatever is most appropriate/recognizeable :)06:34
sabdfldaniels: good point06:35
sabdflmako, elmo, Kamion?06:35
makois there a place that could fall under right now?06:35
makomaybe just under CC06:35
sabdflHmm... "Canonical Evangelism" is dangerous territory ;-)06:36
makoone thought woudl be to make that directly under the purview of the CC right now06:36
sabdflboth mako and jeff have been vocal spokesman, i'm happy for them to continue to play that role06:36
elmo_I'm having trouble envisaging what an ER team would do, TBH06:36
elmo_(as opposed to/in addition to/whatever Jeff +Mako).. but I'm not actively opposed, just unclear06:37
Kamionwe've been assigning that sort of work to people who have contacts in the relevant communities, thus far06:37
sabdflyes, an i think that should continue to be the way we work06:37
Kamionon the basis that established personal contacts win06:37
sabdflwith mako / jdub coordinating06:37
Kamionthe point where that stops working is communities where we don't already have established contacts06:37
makodaniels: if you feel strongly that there's a need, you should maybe write it up a bit06:37
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KamionI think a group who take default responsibility for contacts with those communities would be useful06:38
makoi think we can ultimately make that set of processes just directly answer able to the CC maybe06:38
sabdflrather than a group i prefer an individual06:38
sabdflwith a group to back them up06:38
Kamionseems maybe that an external relations team would be more responsible for setting the Ubuntu line, or something like that06:38
Kamionsabdfl: right, agreed06:39
sabdflKamion: in that case, cc would be the best forum06:39
daniels(the main advantage that I can see is ... well yeah, what Colin just said, and also that other projects who are interested in working with us have a single point of contact, but no biggie)06:39
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sabdflok, then let's leave things as they stand for the moment06:40
sabdfli dont want to create teams "just because" until we have real need and people with a passion for that specific role06:40
=== mako_ nods
sabdfl(erm, though we did just create a doc team :-)06:40
mako_we have real need :)06:41
mako_we have real need :)06:41
sabdflwhat about an accessibility team?06:41
danielsheh.  essentially, what I vaguely had in mind was no different from what Jeff, James/Colin, James/Robert, and, to a very small degree, myself, already do.06:41
mako_sabdfl: i like the idea a lot. but who would lead it?06:41
sabdflmako_: like the idea of an accessibility team?06:42
sabdflme too, but we do need a leader in the absence of general skills available to carry it06:42
sabdflmaybe henrik omma?06:42
sivangI also like this idea very much, i also share the passion to it.06:42
sabdflsivang: do you know henrik omma?06:43
sivangsabdfl : hmm, not yet ;)06:43
mako_sivang: YOU WILL :)06:43
sabdfloh heck i have to take a guest here briefly, mako can you take over the chair for a while?06:44
sivangmako_ : *lol*06:44
mako_sabdfl: yes, got it06:44
sabdflbefore i go, can i suggest we create a wiki page with proposed teams06:44
sabdflthen people can hash out ideas there06:44
mako_sabdfl: i'm taking notes06:44
mako_sabdfl: i'll wikify it06:44
pittimako_: can you announce it in a mail? I've got to go, too06:45
sabdflok, brb06:45
mako_pitti: yes06:45
mako_any other ideas for a lead or contact for accessibility?06:45
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mako_(i'm multiplying)06:46
mako_alright. lets move on then06:47
mako_also on the agenda was team structures and goals06:47
mako_the laptop team seems to be teh only one up with more than a sentance for goals06:48
Kamionas soon as I can edit the web site I'll do something for the installer team06:48
makoi think it might be nice to have the team leaders write a short itemized list or something06:48
makowon't take more than a few minutes for most of them but it would be nice06:48
makoin terms of structure06:49
makothere doesn't seem to be anything up either defining what it means to be on a team, where this would be noted etc06:50
Kamionyes, for new teams that should be part of the team creation process06:50
=== mako nods
makoor what the relationship between teams and the larger ubuntu commmunity is in terms of decision-making06:51
makoi think in the vast majority of cases, teams will be able to go about their business 06:51
KamionI wouldn't go too far down the road of having formal team lists up on the web site; in general the team ought to be de facto the set of people who contribute, with some named people who do lots of work06:51
makoKamion: i'm happy with that06:52
makoKamion: although i think having some sort of visible recognition can be nice06:52
makoeven if it's like a "active contributors to this team have included..."06:52
Kamionright, compare the Debian /intro/organization page that lists the very active people on e.g. boot-floppies or whatever06:53
makobut with that concern out there, i think the less formal structures we place on this the better06:53
sabdflagreed, they just get out of date06:53
Kamionbut I wouldn't want people thinking that they have to go through an application process to start making contributions06:53
sabdfllet's keep those pages simple06:53
makoKamion: exactly06:53
Kamionuploads, yeah, but that's different06:53
makoelmo_: y/n ?06:54
makoelmo_: all sound reasonable?06:54
sabdflin terms of goals i structured the laptop team page as an example06:54
elmo_mako: yes06:54
sabdflof setting goals per release06:54
elmo_tho I think the whole "having just a team as a contact" is less than ideal thing is also true to a degree06:54
makosabdfl: i like it, we can send that out to teh team leaders06:54
sabdflthe more concrete we can make them the better06:54
elmo_oh, but that's mitigated by leaders, ignore me06:54
makoelmo_: also, there is a team contact email and irc channel06:55
makoeven if it is just ubuntu-devel06:55
sabdflmakes sense to me to list the really passionate contributors to a team as well as the leader06:55
makosabdfl: a bit of recognition can go a long way06:55
sabdflshould we create #channels and mail-lists for teams, or only wen volume requires it06:55
makosabdfl: not by default06:56
sabdflelmo_, Kamion?06:56
Kamionagreed with mako, higher-volume teams may well want it but it doesn't make sense for e.g. the installer team of one for now06:56
makoone thing that has worked well is having people using [foo]  tags on devel if the traffic gets too difficutl to follow06:56
makoin debian, custom and desktop have done this06:56
sabdflthat's a great idea06:56
sivangthe more concrete ones should have, I suggest creating the python, security, desktop for example.06:56
sabdflthen we can also objectively measure traffic06:57
sivang(mailing lists)06:57
makobecause their work was low traffic, appealed to many people and people wanted to see what they were doing :)06:57
sabdflsivang let's go with mako's [foo]  suggestion, then set a threshold for a new list06:57
makoright, and when custom got big, they got their own list :)06:57
sabdfland collapse it back if traffic on that list drops again06:57
sivangsabdfl : agreed. :)06:57
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sabdflso agreed: no new lists or channels till traffic requires it06:57
sivangsabdfl : sounds cool, that way major issues would never slip away from public eyes.06:58
sabdflyes, i'd prefer to garden the list of lists to make sure we only advertise active and useful forums06:58
makoit tends to be easier to create a list than to uncreate it :)06:58
makofrom a social/organizational perspective, not technical06:59
sabdflwell, we could send a final message to the list saying "closed for the winter, try over at ubuntu-devel", and then also set an autoresponder on that list address to say the same.06:59
makoand the threshold can be largely qualitative06:59
sivangmako has a good point, maybe consider redirecting the lists address the a generl list upon traffic changes.06:59
sabdfli'm sure the ubuntu-fabbionelikesmyshoes team will have a low threshold before being asked to form a list :-)07:00
makowell, this more a warning about creating lists too quickly now.. we can worry about closing them when we get to there07:00
sabdflok, so agreed, no new lists07:00
sabdflfor teams07:00
sabdflubuntu-users has been, um explosive :-)07:01
sabdfldo we need any tuning on that front?07:01
makoi'm not sure what we can do07:01
makothe VAST majority of traffic is on topic07:01
sabdflhigh signal to noise?07:01
makoand there aren't droves of unsubscriptions07:01
makosabdfl: yes, so far07:01
sivangwe can sort it to sub topics, and instruct users, or even automate a mailing process from the OS, respective to the subject/problem etc...07:02
makoi'm only totally caught up until last friday :)07:02
sabdflcan we get regular stats of subs versus unsubs as an indicator of forum usefulness?07:02
makosabdfl: yes07:02
makosabdfl: i can put that in traffic07:02
sabdflmako: beter, bring it to this meeting07:02
makosabdfl: with the mailing list stats07:02
makooh, ok team traffic, yes07:03
makosure, that makes sense07:03
sabdflmako: traffic would also be a good place to publish the stats07:03
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sabdfli didn't think the traffic would explode like that, it's been very exciting07:03
makoyeah, we're already publishing mailing list stats there07:03
elmo_debian tries to split it by, e.g. architecture, language and specific topics (laptop, firewall) - ime that doesn't work too well for the latter, but the former does - dunno if we have the arch traffic to justify the first yet tho07:04
danielselmo_: it doesn't look like it, although the mere presence may encourage more posting and discussion; still, big if07:04
makoi think the threshold is not necessary a pure volume issue07:05
sivangsabdfl : even from the support person point of view, I'd like to be able to sort u-u's traffic so see which areas I am familiar with and give support to.07:05
makoit's also a "relevance to the whole" issue07:05
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Kamionsorry, fell off; what did I miss?07:05
makoKamion: i'll msg you07:05
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Mithrandirmako: yeah, the few postings to debian-bsd would just drown on -devel, for instance.07:05
Mithrandirand similarly, I'd imagine, for ubuntu07:05
sabdfl18:04:24) elmo_: debian tries to split it by, e.g. architecture, language and specific topics (laptop, firewall) - ime that doesn't work too well for the latter, but the former does - dunno if we have the arch traffic to justify the first yet tho07:06
sabdfl(18:04:51) mako: sure07:06
sabdfl(18:04:55) daniels: elmo_: it doesn't look like it, although the mere presence may encourage more posting and discussion; still, big if07:06
sabdfl(18:05:00) mako: i think the threshold is not necessary a pure volume issue07:06
sabdfl(18:05:05) sivang: sabdfl : even from the support person point of view, I'd like to be able to sort u-u's traffic so see which areas I am familiar with and give support to.07:06
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sabdfl(18:05:07) mako: it's also a "relevance to the whole" issue07:06
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sabdflkamion: ^^07:06
sabdflok, i don't think we want hard thresholds for lists07:06
sabdflbut will take into account the wishes of that community07:06
sabdflbalanced against the broader user base07:07
Kamioncan team leaders edit their web pages, or should they send updates to lu/silbs/somebody?07:07
sabdflso if an arch wants its own list and they have a bunch of people communicating with one another, then we create the list07:07
sabdflKamion: they will be able to edit their pages07:07
sabdflwe needed to integrate Zope with Launchpad and thats taken a while, hence the lockdown on web site editing07:08
sabdflin fact most pages on the site will be editable by almost anyone until that bites us in some way07:08
makosharkalright, that sounds good07:08
makoshark(my screened connection is having trouble)07:09
sabdflso can we move on to the community structures and processes?07:09
sabdflfirst, this council itself07:10
makosharkyeah, i think we've completely killed that first item07:10
sabdfldaniels, want to raise your question about the size of the council?07:10
danielsif the community council is defined as being higher-up, and concerned with issues of far greater long-term weight (e.g. philosophical) than the technical board, should it necessarily be diluted to four members, who are there for two years?07:11
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danielsnot to cast aspersions on the current members or anything :) just that if there's going to be immense power/responsibility, four might be a little too concentrated.07:12
sabdflmako_: did you miss a chunk?07:12
makosharksabdfl, makoshark is mako :)07:12
makosharksabdfl, i'm connected multiple times07:12
daniels(that said, there are massive advantages to having a small team, also; personally, I'm rather ambivalent.)07:12
KamionI would like to see more non-Canonical-staff here, but it's going to take a while for that to work07:12
sabdflKamion: agreed07:12
makosharkKamion, that was my suggestion as well07:12
Kamions/more/any on the council/07:13
KamionI think we should regard four as a seed which will grow07:13
sabdfli'd like to keep the council small07:13
makosharkdaniels: so is your concern "too small and too long?"07:13
sabdfland then go out to the broader "wise heads" community when there's a decision on the table that requires it07:14
Kamionsabdfl: half-dozen or so?07:14
sabdflabsolute max07:14
KamionI agree we don't want to drown in committee syndrome07:14
daniels(to death-by-committee)07:14
sabdflfor a given decision we might well ask the opinion of a much wider group07:14
makosharkso we (read: sabdfl) should be careful to pick the bonus members since they'll be around longer07:14
=== makoshark is now known as mako
danielsmakoshark: my concern was basically that if the council is dealing with issues of great importance, then adding one or two more members may help ease some concerns others *may* have07:15
makobut 1-2 new non-canonical people soonish would be great07:15
sabdflwe should probably also stagger the appointments, so we don't have a whole new council every two years07:15
sabdflsame goes for the technical board07:16
makoi'm sure if we ask people to volunteer to stand for a shorter term in order to preserve some continuity, it would work07:16
sivangthere can be a wider review committe , that is presented with the core's members views - then after receiving feeback from the committe things can be decided.07:16
makoespecially if reappointment is an option07:16
sabdflalso, in  many cases there will be a team involved07:16
sabdfland for the decision we want to include the team and the council07:17
sabdflgetting consensus gets very hard if you ask for more opinions07:17
makosivang: my concern is that we already may have more committees than we're capable of using adequately at the moment :)07:17
sivangmako : i see.07:17
Kamionseems to me that once the community is well-established the most frequent task of the council will be new maintainers (that's nominally assigned to the "Governing Board" at the moment, I assume that needs to be fixed)07:18
sabdfli've suggested that we get a confirmation vote from the "maintainers" for new appointments to the council, how do you all feel about that?07:18
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sabdflKamion: yes that's a typo, which page?07:18
Mithrandirsabdfl: "maintainers" == ubuntu maintainers?07:18
sabdflMithrandir: yes07:18
Kamionsabdfl: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/maintainers/document_view07:18
makoKamion: i've caught a few of those my self07:18
makosabdfl: i like that07:18
Mithrandirsabdfl: Debian uses self-nomination + election for the tech-ctte, that seems to work fairly well there.07:19
makosabdfl: having the maintainers confirm their "leadership" makes a lot of sense07:19
KamionMithrandir: CC is closer to the DPL in spirit, but the same comment applies anyway07:19
danielsMithrandir: hopefully our CC is a little more potent than ctte when it needs to be07:20
sabdflmako: agreed07:20
Mithrandirdaniels: the tech-ctte doesn't _want_ to get involved, our CC can very well act totally differently while still being {,s}elected the same way.07:21
sabdflok, let's leave it this way for the moment07:22
makothis way being appoint + confirm?07:22
sabdfldo you think i should ask the current maintainers to confirm mako, kamion and elmo by vote?07:22
sabdflmako: nominate  + confirm, then appoint07:22
danielssabdfl: tbh, I doubt there will be any objections07:22
Kamionsabdfl: in a yay/nay kind of way? fine by me07:23
makoyeah, sure :)07:23
Mithrandirsure, though it's not too important yet.07:23
sabdfldaniels: agreed, good to observe the process07:23
makodaniels: it's in all likelihood a rubber stamp in this case but the process is there for a reason07:24
makodaniels: (a good one)07:24
Kamionwe could leave that until we have some non-Canonical maintainers, perhaps ...07:24
Kamion*shrug* don't mind either way07:24
makoelmo_, you arlight with at?07:24
makowith THAT even?07:24
elmo_sure, of course07:24
danielsmako: indeed07:24
=== sabdfl wishes there was a way to do anonymous vote by wiki
danielsdevotee? ;)07:24
makosabdfl: that's a moin-moin plugin we don't have yet :)07:24
sabdflhow about agreeing to confirm the current council and tech board in one year's time?07:25
makodevotee would make one HELL of a moinmoin plugin :)07:25
makosabdfl, special case this year?07:25
sabdflmako yes07:25
sabdflby then we should have a broader maintainer community07:26
makosabdfl: that's fine with me although i'll bet we could an IRC y/n thing and get a majority pretty quickly07:26
sabdflok, let's do it now, for process, ad again in a year, special case, on the grounds that the balance of maintainer opinion will have shifted away from Canonical by then07:27
makosabdfl: but yes, it seems very sensible and justifiable and ultimately, i think since is all new, it's up to you07:27
sabdflanybody object if I define the "current maintainers" list as the 10 guys who have ben entirely / mostly focused on warty full time?07:28
makoabsolutely not07:28
sabdflplus Herbert Xu... anyone else?07:28
sabdflok, i'll hold an irc confirmation process for that07:29
makosounds great07:29
sabdflmako: that's two tasks for me, one to get the team leaders up to speed on process ideas, and another to get confirmation on the cc and tb.07:29
makoi wrote them down07:29
sabdflok, so that's appointment taken care of. two year terms ok? term limits?07:29
mako(and would be happy to take either off you if you want)07:30
danielsi don't think I really like the idea of term limits07:30
sabdflfor the sabdfl? <duck>07:30
danielsif Kamion is still around and doing an awesome job in ten years (or sabdfl, or anyone), then they should be there07:30
lamontsabdfl: I think that term is 'life'07:30
lamontso just 1 term. :-)07:30
sabdflyes, judge07:30
danielsif they're not the best person for the job, I hope they're not getting voted back in07:30
makoright, someone else has to come in and fund the company and assume that role :)07:30
lamontterm limits tend to be worse than no-term limits, ime07:31
Keybuklamont: if it isn't, the job title needs renaming07:31
sabdflin this case i'd be very happy to serve (a) well, (b) for life, (c) for a Loooooong Time.07:31
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sabdflpersonally i think we all need new challenges after about 7 years07:32
sabdflso i won't be nominating anybody for more than three years to cc, 6 to tb, fwiw07:32
sabdflam happy to document that07:32
=== mako nods
sabdflalso, it creates space for new energy07:33
makoi think that's important07:33
KamionI've only barely been using free software for seven years, I can cope with that07:33
sabdflsorry, three terms to cc07:33
danielssabdfl: s/years/terms/?07:33
sabdflmy mistake07:34
sabdflexactly. what was it daniels said? "immense power"?07:34
sabdflmako: stop smiling07:35
makocan't :)07:35
sabdflok, now about the relationship between cc and tech board07:35
sabdflit's not really documented, and we didn't discuss it in oxford07:35
makothey seem mostly to be non-overlapping07:36
KamionI'd expect each to have final say over the issues which belong to it, and to defer to the other on everything else07:37
Kamion(modulo sabdfl and baby jesus)07:37
makobut i can see places where, say, a maintainer was otherwise ok but the technical commity objected07:37
Kamionmako: would expect the CC to take feedback from the tech board ...07:38
makoor situations where one group might think a problem is technical and another think its a social problem07:38
makoKamion, right07:38
Mithrandircc is processes and social issues, tb is tech issues, it seems?07:38
sivangwe should have a subset of pepople from both tb and cc to have final decision over stuff like this.07:38
makoi kind of see that as EXTREMELY rare07:38
makoand if it happens, i'm happy to aggree with kamion and kick it up to the sabdfl 07:38
Kamionsivang: I tend to think both bodies should be able to behave like adults and talk it out when things obviously overlap07:38
sabdflhmm... should a maintainer not be appointed by tech board, if we are a tech meritocracy?07:38
sabdflor both?07:39
makosabdfl: ideally, they'd be confirmed by both07:39
sabdflelmo, kamion?07:39
sivangKamion : ofcourse, but maybe having a combined group could be making better decisions on overlapping/crossed issues?07:39
elmo_appointed to be a maintainer or what sorry?07:39
makosabdfl: debian confirms both social/philosophical and technical aspects of an applicant and i've always thought that was very sensible07:39
makoelmo_, who appoints maintainers07:39
Kamionperhaps CC should do the actual appointment but TB confirmation required07:40
sabdflelmo_: confirmation of new maintainers, should it be cc, or tb, or both?07:40
makoelmo_, CC or TB or both07:40
Kamionor TB veto allowed, or something similar07:40
elmo_both in some form (i.e. what kamion's suggestion is fine), IMO07:40
Kamionactually, yeah, I'm happiest with TB having veto here; don't want to swamp the TB with having to ack every single obviously-sensible maintainer07:40
sabdflok, both required to approve, tb first, then cc07:41
MithrandirI think both should approve07:41
sivangI support Mithrandir's oppinion.07:41
makoconsensus works!07:42
sabdflall agreed then07:42
makois there more? i have a few comments on some of the governance text i wanted to clear up07:43
sabdfldo we want maintainership to be for life, or to be renewed?07:43
makoby life, but we should have a policy for monitoring and expiring inactive or MIA maintainers07:43
KamionI'd prefer until-revoked07:43
Mithrandiras long as you are active, life.07:43
Mithrandirit should be possible to gracefully retire then come back as well07:44
makodebian not put much thought into MIA and inactive developers and has a mess on its hands now07:44
makoMithrandir: yep07:44
sabdflif you "retire" someone it tends to become a bit personal07:44
sivangfirst check the mr's will to continue, review, decide.07:44
makowell retiring gracefully is actually in the code of conduct i believe :)07:44
sabdfleasier for it just to lapse, then get renewed if the guy comes back07:45
Mithrandirsabdfl: yes, but if people just disappear, I think it's sane that's fine.  Make it very clear that one should retire gracefully and make it easy to come back.07:45
Kamionwe should be fairly centrally proactive about watching out for people who disappear07:45
Mithrandirmake it harder for people to come back if they go MIA, IMHO07:45
Kamionaargh, I used the word proactive, please shoot me07:45
sabdflMithrandir: yes, we need to be strong about the "disappear gracefully" thing, it does a lot of community damage when someone just disappears07:46
sivangKamion has stressed something very important. not let things get out of sync.07:46
sabdflok, Kamion, i'm loading up now07:46
sabdflsivang wants me to shoot you as requested07:46
Kamionit'll be "synergy" and "leverage" next07:46
MithrandirKamion: proactive isn't that bad.07:46
Mithrandirbingo, btw.07:47
sivanghey, don't shoot Kamion! He's a good fella!07:47
makoit's a good point though07:47
KamionI think you can log somebody as inactive without it becoming personal07:47
sabdflcan we say that maintainership lapses after two years unless renewed? we'll have a role for ex-maintainers and a quick process for people to reactivate07:47
Kamionyou have to take their packages off them anyway07:47
makotwo years of inactivity?07:47
sabdflno, two years07:48
MithrandirKamion: will people "own" packages?  They don't today.07:48
makoi'm not sure it's necessary to add a process to renew07:48
Kamionrenewal would have to be three months before that07:48
KamionMithrandir: or equivalent responsibilities07:48
makoi think being active should be the only requirement07:48
sabdflthe way this will work in practice is that people who are active will send off an email and we'll renew them immediately, people who are not will just become "inactive"07:48
Mithrandirsabdfl: saves the work of hunting for inactive maints07:48
sabdflMithrandir: yes, it just requires that you show you're still actually interested and reading mail07:49
sivangmaybe there can be set up a process for wathching pkg traffice, and then inquire a going-to-be inactive maint. about his state?07:49
Kamion0 0 1 1 * renew-ubuntu-maintainership07:49
makoif it's just a matter of reading and responding to mail, that seems fine07:49
sabdflmako: further down the line soyuz can handle this07:49
sabdfli'll update the maintainers page07:50
makosabdfl, by monitoring activity, etc?07:50
makoit's think it's important that it is clear that it's not another process07:50
makoit's just a ping basically07:50
sabdflmako: we want to be able to introduce a process though07:51
Kamionas long as the process for marking maintainers as inactive doesn't carry a harsh value judgement, notes gratitude for past contributions, and makes it reasonably easy to reactivate, I'm not too concerned about the exact process/mechanism07:51
makoyes, absolutely07:51
sabdflto ensure maintainers are current on updates to package policy etc07:51
sivangright. this sounds like a CC's responsability.07:51
makoi'm just worried about coming off as process fetishists in the process of making processes :)07:51
elmo_sabdfl's been workrave-d07:51
sivangmako : :-))07:52
Mithrandirsabdfl: the part about being current on policy; I sometimes wish to go through NM in Debian again to freshen up on those skills.07:52
Kamionsabdfl: once upon a time interesting Debian packaging policy changes were posted to debian-devel-announce so that everyone read them; that kind of fell by the wayside, but it should happen07:52
makoMithrandir: until you look at the nm process.. ITS HARD07:52
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Mithrandirmako: so?07:52
Kamionmako: brokenly hard, but we've discussed this07:52
makoMithrandir, that's a discussion for later07:53
elmo_it's also far too human costly - we'd need an automated process AMAP07:53
makoi think having a devel-announce list that *everyone* is responsible to read and posting those updates is good07:53
Mithrandirit would be nice to have some "freshen up your policy skillz" thing you at least have the option to go through once in a while.07:53
elmo_kamion: as much as possible07:53
Mithrandirbut, elmo has an excellent point, I agree.07:53
makoif you don't read that and have that base level of knowledge, you don't have time to be a ubuntu-maintainer07:54
sivangmako : sounds like a suitable solution.07:54
Kamionat the same time let's not make the modern-day Debian NM mistake of rewarding people who like writing enormous philosophical screeds07:54
sabdflbut i agree it should be really very fast07:54
lamontKamion: full agreement here.  we want people who can _work_ not spew.07:55
makoand we and we can make that determiniation as people make mistakes.. for hte most part, inactive peopl;e who dont' have time to read 1-2 message a week will in the vast majority of cases be willing to admit to themselves that they don't have time and will do the retire gracefully thing07:55
makoespecialy if its' easy to reactive their account in the future07:55
Kamionacknowledging that we will have to scale in the future, we are still in an environment where we can just talk to people and get an impression of their reasonableness, and we should take advantage of that07:55
elmo_eh, that isn't the problem with NM07:55
makoi think the automated renewal should be a ping, etc07:56
elmo_the problem with NM is that it's full of silly and or irrelevant to the vast majority of people questions07:56
elmo_the P&P stuff doesn't particularly reward or encourage verbosity07:56
makoelmo_, the entire process REQUIRES it07:56
makosabdfl, philosophy and procedures07:56
Mithrandirsabdfl: policy&procedures07:56
elmo_mako: requires what?  verbosity?  I beg to differ07:56
sabdflactually, i think a fair amount of reading is appropriate for someone joining this community07:57
Kamionrequires inhuman patience, certainly07:57
Kamion(with AMs who use the huge-pile-of-irrelevant-questions approach)07:57
sabdflsome people will fast track due to particular skills requirements07:57
makoelmo_: in the case of the process, maybe not. in the case of MOST NMs/AMs, yes07:57
elmo_mako: again, based on the reports I'm reading, beg to differ.. *shrug*07:57
elmo_it's kinda off topic here anyway07:58
=== mako nods
Mithrandirpeople are fast-tracked in other communities as well, I don't see the problem with that.07:58
sabdflwe'll try to automate as much of the process as possible07:58
sabdfland it will take us some time to formalise all of that07:58
sabdfltill then, it will be based on straight nomination to tb and cc07:58
sabdflthen decision based on track record of contributions, or specialised skills07:58
Kamionone thing, I think we should be clear up-front that you don't have to be an Ubuntu maintainer to contribute; you can contribute patches just as easily by making branches and requesting merges07:59
sabdflKamion: absolutely agreed07:59
Kamionif we don't have to have every contributor be a maintainer, then the job of watching out for inactive maintainers is a lot easier07:59
danielsKamion: (and just dumping them in the bts, until we get jiggy with arch)07:59
sabdfland hopefully our rcs becomes an asset, not a liability, in that regard07:59
daniels4am's my bed threshold; night folks.08:00
sabdfldaniels: night, thanks08:00
sivangnight daniels08:00
sabdflanything else for this meeting? we are at 120 minutes08:00
sabdflKamion: ?08:00
Kamionnothing from me08:00
sabdflelmo_: ?08:01
sabdflsilence is golden08:01
elmo_I'm good08:01
makosorry, someone at the door08:01
sabdflok, mako, will you post this somewhere visible (log and summary) please?08:01
makosabdfl, i have a couple concerns with text on the website08:01
sabdflmako: go for it08:02
makosabdfl, yes08:02
makoin the maintainership process it mentions bounties08:02
makoit sounds liek a a requirement08:02
makoshouldn't that be more of a "do good work"?08:02
sabdflit's not, in my eyes anyhow08:02
makoalright, then i will suggest some text that clarifies that08:02
sabdflit's just one way to demonstrate capability08:02
makoright, ok then we're on the same page08:03
sabdflmako: go ahead and edit away08:03
Mithrandirit could be mentioned as an example of showing one's work, though08:03
makothere were a couple other places, especially talking about canonical where the voice canonical and the voice of ubuntu seemed confused08:03
mako"join us" and stuff08:03
makoi don't think clarifying that will be controversial, but wanted to just clear it08:04
makothat's it :)08:04
sabdflin particular, people who are very good, and have full time jobs, might *need* to be able to put hours into ubuntu and be rewarded for it08:04
sabdflthose guys wouldn't have the same time flexibility that the existing community does08:04
sabdflso bounties are a good option for them, i hope08:04
sabdflmako: please point those out to me asap08:05
sabdflanything else?08:05
theantixsounds like you have a nice open process to me08:06
sabdfltheantix: that's cause you can't see me turning the thumb screws on elmo :-)08:06
makosabdfl, no, i think bounties are good thing to have up there. i just it's just one way that people can Do Good Work and that might not be as clear as i can be08:06
sabdflmako: agreed, go ahead and fix it08:06
sabdfltheantix: but thank you, we'll keep it this way08:07
makosabdfl: i'll send the summary to -devel and make sure it gets in the next traffic08:07
sabdflmako: could you also create -devel-announce please?08:07
makosabdfl: i can't do it, but i can make sure it is created08:07
sabdflalright, thanks everyone for a good meeting08:08
makosabdfl, you too08:08
sivangjoin #ubuntu-devel08:09
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mako_mdz: i'm writing a summary up09:13
mako_mdz: i'll send it to you09:13
mako_basically, we had some questions about leadership about the security team09:13
mdzlate night :-)09:15
elmo_you snooze, you lose09:15
Kamionnot as if the meeting was scheduled for today :)09:16
Kamionactually, it was scheduled for a day that didn't exist, which may not have helped09:16
Kamion"Tuesday 27th September 2004"09:16
thomcan we schedule all meetings for days that don't exist? that would greatly enhance productivity *duck*09:16
=== Kamion proposes next tech board meeting for 31st September
Kamionactually somebody at school was given a detention for 31st September once, believe she managed to get out of the detention on the technicality ...09:17
mako_Kamion: just insist that he was there and ask them to produce records to prove otherwise09:20
KragenSitakerit would be nice to know in advance when meetings will happen09:56
mdzI agree :-)10:04
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