vorlonKeybuk: showed up on #d-release, I think. FWIW, I don't think libtool not being happy with ~ in upstream versions (the only part that appears in the directory name, after all) is a big deal for adoption, and I think it's already been claimed that the problem is fixed in current libtool.12:01
Keybukrofl, it isn't fixed12:01
dokokeybuk: good question, on #d-d or #d-r last week?12:01
vorlonjdub: hmm, what's esd getting replaced with?12:01
vorlonKeybuk: ok, then fix it already. ;)12:02
Keybukand wouldn't ~ be most common in the upstream version?12:02
thomyikes, when did vorlon join :-)12:02
vorlonthom: I have always been here.12:02
thomhey dude12:02
Keybukvorlon: can't, it's kinda core to the way libtool works12:02
Keybuk(libtool uses IFS="~" internally, basically)12:02
thomvorlon: please don't start referring to mark as "the arrow"12:02
thomthat would just be disturbing12:02
vorlonKeybuk: ah, well, whoever was noting it actually did suggest a patch, I apparently was under the impression it came from upstream12:03
vorlonthom: <lol>12:03
Keybukit'd be far easier to fix dpkg to use a less silly character12:03
vorlonwe're out of less silly characters.12:03
vorlonthough you're right about it being more likely to appear in upstream version #s (duh), but even so, that's a per-package implementation problem, hmm? :)12:04
dokohmm, `=' doesn't seem to be used much.12:04
vorlondoko: makes it more fun to parse version specs in apt-get install commands. :)12:05
vorlonapt-get install ssh=4.0=rc5-3?12:05
Keybuk$version =~ m/[^-+:.0-9a-zA-Z~] /12:05
Keybuk^ is the current regexp12:05
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dokomake the version string utf8 encoded and we don't have the problem anymore. utf8 is a hoary goal anyway ;)12:07
KeybukI still like the bug that proves nobody *really* uses the hurd port12:07
Keybuk(dpkg can't actually cope with "-" in arch names :p)12:07
=== vorlon chuckles
Keybuklet alone any of Millan's toy-of-the-week ports12:07
dokokeybuk: we should continue this discussion on #debian-glibc, jeff's currently there :)12:08
Keybukvorlon: there's actually remarkably many silly characters left to be abused *shrug*12:09
vorlonKeybuk: few that aren't already used somewhere else that would make it irritating to disambiguate and/or escape strings.12:09
vorlonKeybuk: face it, it's libtool's fault. ;)12:10
Keybukheh, half the archive tools don't even support ~ at the moment; so it's a bit of a dead duck usefulness wise12:10
Keybukoh, I agree; I've waxed lyrical repeatedly that libtool should use IFS="\0" internally which would also fix the space problem12:11
vorlonwell, the archive tools don't need to support it until post-sarge anyway.12:11
Keybukvorlon: the ones in sarge, like apt-ftparchive do12:11
Keybuk(though I think that's one of the few that does support it)12:11
vorlonmeh, it'd be nice if they would, but the only real requirement is that *our* archive be able to handle it before they're allowed into Debian.12:12
Keybukit would be nice if we could work out a way of removing this restriction that dpkg features need to be in a stable release first12:12
Keybukit basically leaves amazingly critical things untested for too long12:13
vorlonSolution: we use Ubuntu as a guinea pig for everything.12:13
Keybuklike the bz2 support, I could merge it in but it's just not tested enough for a stable release12:13
Keybukwe have the same problem12:13
vorlonoh well, it was worth a try ;)12:14
sabdfli don't mind being a guinnea pig12:14
sabdflas long we we get it in early in the cycle12:14
sabdfllike, bz2 should go in immediately hoary opens up12:14
thomwell, the real solution would be to have an ubuntu derivative called "debian madness" or somesuch12:15
thomand have all the daft ideas built in that on a weekly release cycle12:15
Keybukhrm, I can't find that thread :-(12:15
vorlonthom: you *know* that would be a magnet for Gentoo users... :)12:15
thomvorlon: sure. and when they grow up, they use ubuntu12:15
Keybuk"Break My Buntu"12:15
=== vorlon grins
thomit's a win alround :-)12:15
Keybukbecause "break my ubuntu" is impossible for non-south-africans to say without dying of asphixiation in the middle12:16
vorlonquestion is whether the Gentoo users would actually give useful feedback for sifting out the buggy from the non. :)12:16
thomwe should find some xhosa word with a nice glottal stop in12:16
thomvorlon: that would be the problem12:17
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vorlonthom: and then we could use the glottal stop as a separation character in libtool.12:17
dokosabdfl: do guinnea pigs have something to do with guinnes ;)12:17
danielsthom: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=44212:18
Keybukvorlon: some idiot would try to stick it in a filename12:18
danielsthom: gentoo is still the former distribution of choice for all the webforum people12:18
=== vorlon scrubs the filenames in his homedir so Keybuk doesn't see
Keybukactually, I've thought of a bright side12:19
thomvorlon: nice thought. i believe "xh" is the written form of a glotal stop for xhose tho12:19
thomxhosa, even12:19
dokodaniels: ehh, no suse switcher at all ...12:19
pittinight, guys!12:19
danielsheh, some 'How did you find about Ubuntu?' thread12:19
Keybukyou don't *really* need to build packages in a directory named source-upstream12:19
danielstempting to reply th that one12:19
Keybukif you don't, dpkg-source will bitch, but make the .diff.gz anyway12:19
Keybukbut for everyone else, it'll still be unpacked in a directory named source-upstream12:19
Keybukoh, wait, no12:20
=== Keybuk derails his chain of thought
Keybuk(was thinking it'd stop people shipping packages that ran libtoolize ... but it's libtool itself that's broken)12:20
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=== thom ambles to bed
=== daniels blinks.
danielsthom: er, night12:24
thomdaniels: why surprised?12:25
danielsthom: think of the kitt^Wtimezones12:25
danielsnot surprised, it's just a little odd, is all12:25
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sabdflelmo: around?12:38
elmosabdfl: yeah12:40
sabdflhow big is the releases only dir of cdimage?12:40
danielsgah, only 60kB/sec from auckland; still another hour to go for desktop12:40
sabdfland with hoary that would double?12:41
elmosabdfl: yeah12:41
sabdflthanks elmo12:41
jdubvorlon: polypaudio12:42
sabdflyou've been fantastic through the push to release, hope you get some rest over the w/e!12:42
elmosabdfl: thanks, me too12:42
sabdflis there a way for them to mirror both packages and release install cd's and live cd with a single command?12:43
sabdfl(but pref not daily cd builds, just releases)12:43
elmosabdfl: no, unfortunately not12:43
sabdflok, we'll work on that in due course12:44
sabdflfor the brave mirrors out there12:44
danielsgah, no clue where this bloody acpi bug came from12:45
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amudaniels: do you sleep also times or are you 24/7 awake ;) 01:13
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lamontmdz: liveCD is progress, of sorts...01:29
lamontdid y'all want X? :-(01:29
mdzlamont: please talk to alex about it01:30
mdzhe's on jabber01:30
=== lamont points mdz at the other window
lamontthen again, that's probably on the wiki01:31
mdzlamont: I get a Morphix splash instead of an Ubuntu splash01:37
lamontthat too01:43
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amuhehe 02:30
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lamontso why is it that I have to 'sudo nautius' to get a window?03:31
lamontnautilus, even03:31
=== lamont goes in search of bandwidth
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lifelesslamont: I like that name, gotta find a use for it03:35
mdzheh, nautius04:16
jdubit was called naughtylus a lot when it was still 1.x ;)04:17
Keybukahh, eazel04:18
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hornbeckmdz: the KernelHowto will have all the different options of building a kernel04:23
hornbeckI have gotten requests to show the different ways04:23
mdzhornbeck: great04:23
hornbeckmdz: what is there right now was what I got done at work tonight04:24
mdzhornbeck: I didn't intend criticism; I wasn't sure of your plans04:24
hornbeckI know, that is why I am letting you know04:25
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:mdz] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 5 (count 'em) major bugs
tsengmdz: what do you think of the mono-on-buildhost situation04:28
mdztseng: hard to say, considering I've no idea what that situation is :-)04:29
tsengmdz: well, most of the mono packages are failing04:29
tsengbecause mono-mcs has circular deps04:29
mdzI see04:29
mdzlamont: ping?04:29
mdzlamont should be able to take care of that04:30
mdzif he isn't around, send him an email04:30
tsengbasically it needs the compiler to build parts of mono.. i installed them from sid to start out04:30
lamont_r0.96 was problematic to bootstrap.. do we have sources somewhere to insert in to the archive?04:30
tsengthere is a howto on bootstrapping04:30
lamont_rare we trying to bootstrap 0.96, or the new stuff from you tseng?04:31
tsenghm, no one is trying to bootstrap anything atm04:31
tsengbut im looking at your build logs since we synced up my newer stuff04:31
lamont_rtseng: let me rephrase that... what are you trying to convince me to bootstrap...04:31
lamont_rso the new stuff is in our archive, and just needs to get helped through the binary circular dep-wait hell?04:32
tsenglamont_r: well, either bootstrap mono 1.0.1, or just install the bins04:32
tsenglamont_r: right.04:32
fabbionemdz: ping04:32
lamont_rcould you email lamont@canonical.com a pointer to the howto, and I'll do that in the morning. right now trying to focus on the *&%)^_ livecd04:32
tsengwill do04:32
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=== Topic for #ubuntu-devel: Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 5 (count 'em) major bugs
=== Topic (#ubuntu-devel): set by mdz at Fri Oct 15 04:25:21 2004
(mdz/#ubuntu-devel) it was 32C here today05:56
=== Keybuk considers moving
jdubyou'll just have to unlearn a new timezone ;)05:58
jamesh21C here.05:59
Keybukjdub: why should I care what the local timezone is? :p05:59
jdubso you can buy stuff05:59
Keybukyou don't have Internet Shopping?05:59
jdubthen they have to wake you up to deliver it05:59
jameshsome of the supermarkets used to do internet shopping05:59
Keybukand 24-hour Wal-Mart ?05:59
jdubnone of the convenience stores here are 24 hour, because it's "too dangerous"06:00
jdubhere being a ten or so block radius06:00
danielsjdub: wtf?06:02
danielssee, you should move to Melbourne, because every Sevvo is 24h06:03
danielsand there are a fair few 24h supermarkets also06:03
jdubdaniels: yeah, it's totally the redfern thing. everywhere else is fine.06:03
danielsjdub: wow, that's wack06:03
jdubi'm going to have to think about an air conditioner or something, if this is any indication of what summer's going to be like. :|06:03
=== Keybuk wonders whether it's a name thing
Keybukmost dodgy places seem to be <colour><plant or animal>06:04
jdubCOCKFOSTERS -> not dangerous06:04
jameshso gold coast -> not dangerous?06:05
=== AndyFitz will be in melbourne next week from 18th - 27th
AndyFitzmonash uni is flying me down and back.  what champs06:06
danielsjdub: see, this is why we need to rename Redfern to Cockfosters, remember?06:06
danielsno more negative stigma06:06
danielsKeybuk: try Eaglehawk, Bendigo, Ballarat, Melbourne :P06:06
Keybuksee, those names are just made up06:07
Keybuklike Wallabarralooloo06:07
danielsKeybuk: dangerous places around here are Frankston (Franger), Broadmeadows (Broady), and ... well, that's about it06:07
jdubso i was wandering around the afternoon of election day06:07
danielsKeybuk: do you mean Warrnambool or Woolloomooloo?06:07
danielsjdub: did you take a knife?06:07
jduband this dude was saying, "haven't seen any of those f*ckin blacks out here!"06:07
jameshin Perth, people say that Northbridge is a bit dodgy.06:07
Keybukjamesh: so do most geeks06:07
jdubwhich intrigued me, so i slowed down to listen06:08
jameshthe bridge that northbridge is north of is quite interesting though.06:08
jdubmust've been the only two old gizzers brave enough to be racist pigs in this area ;)06:08
jdubintel make binary graphics drivers too now?06:09
Keybukthe area I live in is primarily Asian06:09
jdubKeybuk: when you say asian, do you mean indian too?06:10
Keybukjdub: yeah, Pakistani and Indian06:10
jdubmmm, that's always sounded weird to me06:11
jdubasian, in .au, pretty much means CJK, SEasian, etc.06:11
Keybuksee, I'd call them Oriental06:11
jameshindians are called indians06:11
jdubdefinitely not indian (they're just called indians, much to the annoyance of the pakistanis)06:12
Keybukuh, not exactly annoyance of Pakistanis ... I wouldn't *dare* risk calling a Pakistani an Indian06:12
Keybukthese are two countries that were nearly at nuclear war with each other only a year or two ago06:12
Keybukpeople have been stabbed for less06:12
jduba friend was booted out of a taxi for talking to the pakistani driver about indian stuff06:12
Keybukat least with Asian, they don't kill you06:13
jdubbut that's kind of a stand-out case here, as far as i'm aware06:13
danielsjdub: holy fuck, yeah, being racist in Redfern wouldn't last long06:13
Keybukjdub: Britain, especially the midlands, has a very large Pakistani and Indian population06:13
jdubKeybuk: in .au, they'd seriously look at you oddly, unless they were UK "Asian" themselves ;)06:13
Keybuklargely from independance06:13
danielsKeybuk: asian -> SE Asian, North Asian/subcontinental -> Indian/Pakistani/Sri Lankan06:14
KeybukAsian -> Indian/Pakistani; Oriental -> Chinese/Japanese/etc.06:14
Keybukanother interesting thing I noticed in the two weeks in London;  when out in an Indian restaurant, I'll only eat with one hand06:20
Keybukwherease the aussies just shovel in with both :p06:20
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danielsfabbione: :)06:32
danielsKeybuk: huh? we use one for the knife and one for the fork ...06:32
danielsit's not like Aussies have some form of innate double-handed conveyor belt technique :P06:32
Keybukyou'd be kicked out of my local balti for eating like that :p06:32
danielswhich is good, because I don't eat like that :)06:36
KeybukI mean for eating with a two hands in general :p06:45
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=== lamont_r burns a test disk
=== lamont_r reboots
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lamont_rwell.  that was painful.07:34
lamont_rI think I'm going to go back home and send some email07:34
mdzfabbione: moved?07:35
=== mdz reads other windows
mdzfabbione: so I guess the new DSL is working07:36
fabbionei am checking all the machines and stuff07:38
fabbionemdz: anything special you want me to focus on for today?07:39
mdzfabbione: after a good night's sleep, and all of my high-priority issues fixed, I would like to revisit X07:44
mdzfabbione: the two autodetection fixes we talked about can go in07:45
fabbionemdz: ok07:45
danielsmdz: anything particular that needs revisiting?07:45
mdzI am still unsure about xkb07:45
danielsfabbione: which autodetection fixes rae they?07:46
fabbionedaniels: the MAXRES and the res @60Hz problem07:46
fabbionemdz: Mark also asked to change the default X background07:47
fabbionedaniels: do you have the patch ready?07:47
mdzfabbione: oh?07:47
danielsfabbione: i'm still unconvinced on not using the whitelist -- this will break stuff07:47
danielsfabbione: which patch, 099l?07:47
fabbionemdz: it's to change the black/white points to something more sane07:47
danielsor the colour patch?07:48
fabbionedaniels: the color patch07:48
mdzI don't follow07:48
fabbionemdz: when X starts up07:48
fabbioneyou see the black and grey screen07:48
mdzcurrently it is black07:48
danielsfabbione: i still don't have the colour code07:48
fabbioneblack.. it depends07:48
danielsmdz: the proposal is to change this to the base gdm colour07:48
fabbionefor me it takes longer and i can see the spots07:48
fabbionewe can change it to the default gdm background07:49
fabbionethat's Mark request07:49
fabbionethe patch is definetely safe07:49
danielsi don't think you should see the stipple with -br07:49
mdzso he #76848F07:49
mdzso he wants you to change it to #76848F?07:49
mdzthat is the solid colour background used in gnome07:49
danielsaltough it probably initialises the root window with MakeRootTile, then bzeros the pixels or something equally crackful07:50
danielsmdz: would you be ok with this?07:50
jdubmdz: no, #e1ca9607:50
mdzjdub: what's that?07:50
jdubthe gdm base colour07:50
jdubof the gdm theme07:50
mdzanyway, if Mark asked you to do it, who am I to argue? :-)07:50
fabbionemdz: the Release manager? ;)07:51
danielsfabbione: er no, he's the CTO07:51
danielsjdub is the release manager07:51
fabbionemdz: ok let's revisit the X changes again. one by one07:51
mdzfabbione: did he say "I want it in if it's OK with mdz" or "I want it in"? :-)07:51
danielsok, I'll prepare a base tile patch07:51
fabbionemdz: the latter07:51
mdzit seems insane to me that we should need to patch X to change that, but...07:52
fabbionemdz: it's hardcoded :(07:52
danielsmdz: insane != surprising07:52
fabbioneok hold on07:52
fabbionei need more coffee before we start07:52
mdzwelcome to 1975, we have these things called "command-line options"07:52
fabbionei woke several hours ago to move the office07:52
danielsmdz: either the root tile gets initialised to the grey/black stipple (hardcoded), or the pixels get initialised to zero (-br)07:52
mdzno, I'm not surprised either07:52
mdzthe stipple is hardcoded07:53
mdzso someone went to the trouble of creating a command-line option07:53
mdzto select a different hardcoded pattern07:53
mdzYAY X07:53
=== jdub doesn't really know why we need to choose something other than black, anyway.
danielsmdz: not as heinous as ddxLoad, dude07:53
mdzblack is great07:54
jdubmeans we won't need to patch it next time we change theme...07:54
danielsmdz: you're just hatin' on me 'cause I'm white07:54
jdubevo sans ldap support?07:56
Keybukmy brain just parsed "sans ldap" as a font07:57
fabbionethe electrician is giving me some extra plugs for the office08:04
fabbionemdz, jdub: should we go item by item again?08:05
mdzfabbione: I do not want to update v4l at this time08:05
mdzautodetection stuff is OK08:06
mdzthe xkb changes are very difficult to judge because it is black magic08:07
danielsi can't pass an opinion on the xkb stuff other than anecdotal reports from others of works vs doesn't work08:07
fabbioneso what should we do with XKB?08:11
mdzlet me look at the diff08:14
fabbioneyeah well people.u.o/~fabbione/diff08:14
mdzI already have a copy08:15
mdzit is hard to read though because it is patching patches08:15
mdznot enough context08:15
mdzdownloading source now08:15
fabbionemdz: ok08:15
mdzit changes a ton of layouts08:15
fabbionethe diff doesn't contain the fix to the MAXRES -> $MAXRES08:15
fabbionebut i have it here locally08:16
mdz099l_xxf86vm_increase_verbosity actually decreases the verbosity by increasing a macro called DEFAULT_XF86VIDMODE_VERBOSITY08:16
=== mdz scratches his head
danielsmdz: not quite08:16
danielsmdz: the verbosity level is 1 per default for console, 2 per default for logs (-verbose and -logverbose, respectively)08:17
danielsmdz: the way this does it (non-intrusive as possible) is it only prints that message via ErrorF() if the verbosity level is > DEFAULT_XF86VIDMODE_VERBOSITY08:17
mdzand apparently higher values mean less verbose08:17
danielsand it defaults to 308:17
danielsno, higher values mean more verbose08:17
danielsso this patch only prints the strings if verbosity > 308:17
danielsand since it is 1/2 per default ...08:17
danielsthere is a better solution to this, but it's slightly more intrusive08:18
mdzso which part of what I said was incorrect?08:18
mdzit does make it less verbose ("decreases the verbosity")08:18
danielsthe macro is probably unfortunately namede08:19
danielsthe correct fix is to use xf86DrvMsg() for everything, and use X_ERROR/X_WARNING/X_INFO/X_DEBUG as standard defined levels, but that's less intrusive08:19
danielssince it already has the if, just with stupid magic numbers (yay cruft)08:20
danielsmdz: become one with the crack08:20
danielsmdz: (it helps, seriously)08:20
fabbionemdz: v4l update killed08:24
mdz099j_xkb_new_layouts.diff seems to only change ca, hu, mn and vn08:30
mdz099z_xkb_fix_rules_xfree86.diff I do not understand08:32
fabbioneit fixes ca and ca_enanched08:32
fabbionethe latter is the one that makes some multilayout crap working08:33
MithrandirKamion: 1659; I never got a reply from you.08:33
mdz099z_xkb_level3_ralt_switch.diff I do not understand either08:33
fabbionemdz: if i could explain that patch i would be able to understand XKB :P08:34
mdzisn't there a bug in our bugzilla about ca_enhanced or something?08:34
fabbionemdz: yes. there was a note in a bug but i couldn't find it anymore08:35
fabbioneETOOMANY XKB reports08:35
danielshm, ralt_switch_multikey vs ralt_switch08:35
mdzI don't see how this fixes ca_enhanced08:36
mdzthe bug report says: Error:            Can't find file "pc/ca_enhanced" for symbols include08:36
mdzSymlinking /etc/X11/xkb/symbols/pc/ca_enhanced to08:36
mdz/etc/X11/xkb/symbols/ca_enhanced fixes the problem.08:36
fabbionediff -ruN xc-old/programs/xkbcomp/symbols/pc/us xc/programs/xkbcomp/symbols/pc/us08:36
fabbione --- xc-old/programs/xkbcomp/symbols/pc/us2004-10-08 22:36:37.000000000 +000008:36
fabbione@@ -1174,7 +1172,7 @@08:36
fabbione +    key <AB10> { [     slash,   question,  questiondown,        dead_hook ]  };08:36
fabbione +    key <BKSL> { [ backslash,        bar,       notsign,        brokenbar ]  };08:36
fabbione +08:36
fabbione-+    include "level3(ralt_switch_multikey)"08:36
fabbione++    include "level3(ralt_switch)"08:36
fabbionemdz: the symlink is plain wrong08:36
fabbionemdz: i did ask Denis in private and Branden confirmed that08:37
fabbionethe layout needs to be done properly08:37
mdzI can do setxkbmap ca_enhanced fine08:37
mdzwith current Warty X08:38
fabbionemdz: the problem is not when you load ONE layout08:38
fabbionethe problem is in multilayout environments08:38
mdzhow can I test it on the command line?08:38
fabbioneno idea08:38
danielsmultikey is apparently compose-like behaviour08:38
danielsso I would posit that changes the behaviour of right alt from a level 3 switch to a multikey level 3 switch08:38
danielse.g. altgr-' (or whatever it is) would no longer be @ on a gb keyboard08:39
danielsbased on that and my tenuous understanding of XKB, I believe the patch to be correct08:39
danielsbut I disclaim that belief as much as possible08:40
mdzso in #1089, Denis said basically that the status quo is correct08:42
mdzunless we convert things from old to new format, which we aren't08:42
mdzthe problem is that we cannot verify anything08:43
mdzthis patch could completely break the hu, vn and mn layouts and we would have no idea08:43
mdzunless some user reported it08:43
fabbioneyes and gnome people will say that is not true and that X is at fault08:43
fabbionemdz: not really. this patch completes the layout08:44
mdzand considering that probably 5 people use those layouts, and 1 of them uses ubuntu, that seems unlikely08:44
fabbionemdz: they were first imported in u2308:44
mdzu23 which was uploaded october 4th08:45
danielsmdz: i think we should just throw our hands up and wontfix that one; there's really nothing we can do08:45
fabbioneor ubuntu2408:45
fabbionelet me check08:45
fabbionei am not a super robot :P08:46
danielswhy not??08:46
fabbionemdz: u2408:46
mdzok, so it is fixing a layout that did not even exist until 1 week ago08:46
fabbioneit's completing the fix for a layout that was supposed to be there and it wasn't in the beginning08:47
mdzI'm OK with 099j_xkb_new_layouts.diff08:48
mdznext up, 099z_xkb_level3_ralt_switch.diff08:48
mdzthis one changes 34 symbol files08:49
mdzincluding en_US which is rather widely used08:49
danielsmdz: as I said before, I believe it changes the meaning of ralt on three-level layouts from a compose-like two-key-presses-for-one-character, to a more traditional altgr-like one-key-press-for-one-character08:50
mdzwhat is a three-level layout?08:50
mdzand why is that change a good idea08:50
mdzI don't see any ubuntu users saying that they expect it to do something different08:51
danielsstandard layouts (e.g. us) are two-level -- you have the keys, and when you press shift, you modify them to use a different 'level', as it were08:51
danielsunfortunately pc104/pc105 isn't sufficient for a lot of people, so they need to go to three-level08:51
danielsso altgr acts in the same way as shift, but produces different results08:51
fabbionemdz: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=27614308:51
danielsso on a gb (england) keyboard, pressing ' gets you ', pressing shift-' gets you ", pressing altgr-' gets you @08:52
daniels(i'm not sure if that's the key @ was on, but I'm sure you get the idea.  they needed an extra symbol to accommodate the euro.)08:52
danielsmost people expect altgr to behave like shift -- immediately switch them to level 3, so the next keypress is treated as a standard level 3 keypress08:52
mdzUnfortunately previous behavior broke other stuff.  This issue is very08:53
mdztricky and won't get fixed in sarge, your best option is to specify08:53
mdzlv3:ralt_switch with altwin:meta_win.  But it does not work at the08:53
mdzmoment, I will make minor changes to let it work soon.08:53
fabbioneand he did08:53
danielsbut, afaict, right now it's being treated as compose-like, where you press two keys to get one (e.g. pressing right alt-u-" on my configration gives me )08:53
danielsthat's multikey08:53
fabbionemdz: i can send the new package to 1089 reportes/etc and see if that's ok08:54
danielsbut I live in pc104/us natively, and the only other language I speak does the same.  so I can't substantiate this with anything much.08:54
mdzthis doesn't even fix 108908:54
mdzit fixes no ubuntu bug08:54
mdzand the debian bug it fixes is not severe08:54
fabbionemdz: 1089 will be fixed with X.org, period08:54
fabbionemdz: it might fix the sticky meta thing08:55
fabbionebut i am not sure08:55
mdzthis is not the time to make blind changes and hope they fix stuff, because they might make things worse08:55
fabbionemdz: read above08:55
fabbionei can ask people to test the package across the weekend08:55
fabbioneross is very responsive08:56
fabbionefor 228808:56
mdzdoes ross use this kind of layout?08:56
danielsgb (english) keyboards are three-level, yes08:56
fabbionegb yes08:56
danielsactually, dad's laptop downstairs is three-level08:56
danielsi can kick my little sister off it in half an hour, so I'll boot it into SuSE and arse around with XKB there as much as possible08:57
mdzin #2288 it sounds like in an earlier xfree86, we blindly took denis' patches from xfree86 svn, and they broke things for ross08:57
daniels(it has a euro symbol on the third level of 5)08:57
danielsmdz: the reality is, especially with the sparsity of these wacky layouts, most everything we do with xkb is blind08:58
mdzso I am learning08:58
fabbionemdz: if i read correctly the debian bug i pasted before08:58
mdzand that is why I don't want these changes08:58
fabbioneand the fix denis did08:58
fabbionethis change should fix ross problem08:58
fabbioneis that an issue to ask him to test the changes?08:58
danielsyeah, I was about to say08:59
fabbionei can prepare packages in less than a hour08:59
danielsmaybe put up a replacement xlibs on p.u.c/~fabbione/08:59
fabbionedaniels: that was the idea08:59
fabbionemdz: if we get the changes tested, is that ok for you?08:59
mdzfabbione: it doesn't matter if it fixes ross' problem. at all.08:59
mdzwhat matters is what it does to the other thousands of users09:00
mdzwe cannot regression-test this. at all.09:00
mdzit is not possible09:00
danielswould we be better served by deferring it to hoary and seeing if anyone complains?  (that's the reality of xkb testing, especially with eleventy billion possible configurations, and that's just for English speakers -- you just hope for the best and see if anyone bitches.)09:02
mdzthat seems to be the only way to do this09:02
danielsi'm happy with that09:02
mdzlet's do an ubuntu25 with "* Fix 1152x768 @ 60 Hz mode. (Closes: #2328)" and "* Fix a nasty bug in frequencies detection logic"09:03
fabbioneok so what do you want me to do?09:03
fabbionerevert the  * In /etc/X11/xkb/rules/xfree86, move lv3 definitions after altwin so09:03
fabbione    that the former can override the latter.  See Bug#276143.09:03
danielsmdz: with or without the GetModeLine and/or gdm changes?09:03
mdzdaniels: Mark says he wants the background change, and I assume that is trivial09:04
danielsmdz: relatively so, yes09:04
mdzon a scale from 0 to XKB...09:04
mdzdaniels: the getmodeline thing seems obviously safe, but I really don't see the point09:05
danielsthe current code doesn't create any actual pixels using a cmap -- it just does 'foo.blackPixel' and 'foo.greyPixel', which are hard-coded into structures, or for -br, it just bzeros a struct, which ends up with a black pixel09:05
mdzit is just some noise in the log file09:05
danielsso it's not quite s/000000/otherhexcode/, it involves creating a pixel and doing a cmap lookup09:05
danielstaking XKB to be 20, I'd say about 1.309:06
danielsmdz: fair cop09:06
mdzif you and fabbione agree on the getmodeline thing, go ahead09:06
fabbionei agree on 099l09:06
fabbioneit is safe to me09:06
mdzI thought xscreensaver wrote a line when it locked anyway, but it seems to only do that when you use xscreensaver-command09:06
mdznot when the timeout elapsed09:06
mdzagreed, it is safe09:06
=== fabbione gets ready to ubuntify another workstation
mdzso, X ubuntu25 = the last three '*'s in the changelog you sent09:09
mdzplus this colour change that Mark wants09:09
mdzdaniels: how soon can you have that patch ready?09:09
=== _rene__ [~rene@dsl-213-023-036-232.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
danielsmdz: i'm on it now, just waiting for the tarball to extract09:09
fabbionemdz: hold on a sec...09:10
fabbionemdz: so no XKB changes09:10
fabbionenone of them09:10
fabbione  * Update "Further Information" section of FAQ.09:10
fabbione  * Add FAQ entry: What are Debian's plans with respect to X.Org and09:10
fabbione    XFree86?09:10
fabbioneok for you?=09:11
mdzif you must09:11
mdzI don't know why ubuntu users need this09:11
fabbionewell it's documentation.. it's not like changing any code09:11
mdzbut I will not argue over harmless text changes09:11
jdubpia just met rms09:11
jdubcalled me to yell about how much of an unreasonable ******* he was09:12
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mdzyou didn't warn her?09:12
jdubof course09:12
jdubshe knew going in09:12
jdubdoesn't help with the shock of direct realisation though09:13
fabbionemdz: ok i reverted the XKB changes and co09:16
mdzpitti: morning09:16
danielsmdz: 09:18
daniels        attributes[0]  = pScreen->whitePixel;09:18
daniels        attributes[1]  = pScreen->blackPixel;09:18
daniels   if (blackRoot)09:18
daniels       bzero(back, sizeof(back));09:18
danielscool, isn't it?09:18
jameshbzero is deprecated09:20
danielsCopyright 1987 by Digital Equipment Corporation, Maynard, Massachusetts09:21
danielsdec is deprecated also09:21
danielsso are mullets and milli vanilli, but someone forgot to tell X09:21
fabbionedaniels: gimme a patch09:22
danielsfabbione: don't be so hasty09:23
danielsyou kids are so impatient09:23
daniels(as a more serious response, yes, I'm working on it now)09:23
fabbionemdz: 234609:27
fabbionemdz: i am going to fake mdetect and see if something is broken in X or it is an hardware problem09:27
fabbioneit is enough for me to let a fake mdetect to print a standard serial mouse output09:28
mdzI have a serial mouse here09:28
mdzI am not using it of course, but I could plug it in to test09:28
fabbioneand see if it is X code or not that is broken09:28
fabbionemdz: it's easier to fake the test ;)09:28
fabbionebut it's up to you09:28
fabbioneif you have 10 minutes to spend go ahaed09:29
mdztell me if it would help or not09:29
mdzif it would, I will do it09:29
fabbionemdz: it doesn't really matter. i can do it myself :-)09:29
mdzoh wait, hmm09:29
=== ph_ [~ph@pD9E6B6F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
mdzI think I may have given away my serial mouse09:29
fabbionemdz: don't worry09:30
fabbionecat mdetect09:30
fabbioneecho "/dev/ttyS0"09:30
fabbioneecho "whatever"09:30
fabbionethat's your serial mice09:30
mdzwell, that would have allowed me to test if mdetect is not working properly09:31
fabbionemdz: according to the bug mdetect is working09:31
fabbionemdetect sees it if you're reminded to wiggle the mouse around during detection;09:31
fabbionebut then it just spits out the psaux stanza only anyway which is a bit sucky.09:31
fabbioneso there might be 2 problems09:32
fabbionemdetect sucks09:32
fabbioneand a bug in X that doesn't handle properly the serial mice09:32
fabbioneand i can check the X side easily09:32
danielsbuilding now09:38
danielsmdz: there was a slightly cleaner way, which just involved having two unsigned char arrays filled with 0x76848F and calling PutImage with XYPixmap, rather than XYBitmap09:40
danielswe'll see09:40
=== fabbione feels stupid
fabbionea LOT09:44
fabbionei nuked the svn repo for xfree86 ubuntu09:51
fabbionenothing really important09:51
fabbionebut i mind that i lost the change history09:52
fabbioneanyway Keybuk has evertyhing09:52
fabbioneor almost09:52
Keybuko/~ He's got the whoooole world, in his hands!10:00
fabbionemdz: 2346 -> mdetect problem10:04
=== amu [~amu@pD95009A6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel
fabbionemoin amu ;)10:09
jdubyo amu10:09
jdubwelcome! :)10:10
danielsamu: fwiw, I caught about 3 hours worth of sleep today10:10
amubuona mattina fabbione10:10
fabbioneamu: grazie :-)10:10
amudaniels, hehe 10:10
Keybukdaniels: bah, narcophile10:11
danielsKeybuk: it's true :\10:11
daniels(why oh why does mesa take so bloody long to compile)10:13
amuARG my mailserver ( 700km away ) give up10:14
=== seb128 [~seb128@ANancy-151-1-12-161.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Keybukdaniels: I've been awake about 30 hours or so10:15
Keybukso this code is either brilliant, or scary10:15
Keybukbut at least it's *unit tested scary code* if so :p10:16
danielsKeybuk: nice10:16
Keybukthough perhaps I should stop if I write  def testTakesOverTheWorldAndKillsHumanity(self):10:16
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lamontfirst root looks sane finally.  10-15 more minutes or so10:17
mdzdaniels: according to jdub the correct colour is #e1ca9610:18
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=== amu [~amu@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Keybukso, we passed Knoppix on the distrowatch chart last night to become the #1 Debian derivative10:24
Keybukif we get 20 more hits a day, we pass Debian itself10:24
danielsmdz: gah!10:24
fabbionethe initrd.gz is getting bigger10:25
danielsmdz: i'll see if this works as a proof of concept, and if it does, I'll shang Fabio the patch with the corrected colour code; I need to run out in about half an hour.10:25
fabbione10Mb of ram disk aren't enough anymore10:25
fabbionemdz: choose-mirror for final release. should we add the info from the official mirror list or should we wait for haory?10:26
amuKeybuk: where are those stats ? 10:26
fabbionemdz: installing at priority critical the question is not asked and archive is the default10:26
fabbionemdz: but at lower priority it is asked10:26
fabbionemdz: and it might be nice to have10:26
amuah last 1 month ... 10:26
Keybukamu: www.distrowatch.com, select daily10:27
mdzfabbione: does choose-mirror have an option to enter information manually?10:27
fabbionemdz: yes10:27
fabbionemdz: but only if prio < critical10:27
fabbionewhen you get the menu you have;10:28
fabbioneenter info manually10:28
fabbioneGReat Britain10:28
fabbioneand of course if you select the latter there is only archive10:28
fabbionemirrors are easy to add10:28
fabbioneit's one text file10:28
fabbionethat needs to be synced between choose-mirror and base-config10:29
fabbionebut it's not like high priority problem imho10:29
fabbioneit's just a "it would be nice to have"10:29
=== sabdfl [~mark@host217-37-231-28.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel
fabbionehey sabdfl 10:29
danielssabdfl: 'morning10:29
seb128hi sabdfl 10:30
sabdflmorning all10:30
fabbionetime to convert my gf workstation into ubuntu :-)10:31
=== smurfix [~smurfix@smurfix.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-devel
amuKeybuk: last night i added ubuntu to freshmeat  10:32
amuhey sabdfl 10:33
mdzfabbione: I think it would probably be OK, if we only add mirrors that we are sure will stay around10:34
sabdflhey amu10:34
fabbionemdz: than i suggest we wait for haory10:34
fabbionemdz: we will see stability of the mirrors for a few months before making them official10:34
danielsholy christ10:35
danielsmdz: that colour you gave me wasn't a pink stipple, was it10:35
mdzdaniels: I have no idea, I passed on what jdub said verbatim10:35
mdz<jdub> mdz: no, #e1ca9610:36
danielsfailure.  i will be back later.10:36
danielsshould be back within 6h, and I'll look at it on the train as well.10:37
fabbionedaniels: gimme the patch before you go10:38
seb128mdz: yes, we can change the default shorcuts (re alt+print for screenshots)10:41
=== rburton [~ross@82-44-126-41.cable.ubr03.croy.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-devel
seb128hey hey rburton 10:42
rburtonhey hey seb12810:43
rburtonjdub: so do you think gamin is an acceptable replacement for fam at the moment10:43
fabbioneelmo: ping10:44
rburtonmdz: ping?10:45
fabbionehey ross!10:45
rburtonhi fabbione10:45
mdzrburton: ?10:45
rburtonfabbione: good news -- someone has made a patch for metacity which makes it xkb aware so the super bug is getting fixed both ends10:45
fabbionerburton: ah cool10:46
rburtonmdz: i see your name in the python-apt changelog -- do  you maintain it or just make it build?10:46
mdzrburton: I am apparently the maintainer10:47
rburtonmdz: i'd really be happy if it let me do apt transactions, add/remove packages etc10:48
mdzrburton: I'd be really happy if you sent me a patch to do that :-)10:48
rburtonfair enough10:48
mdzI don't have time10:48
mdznot nearly10:48
mdzyou see I have this "Ubuntu" thing going on :-)10:49
rburtoni'll have a look and see if i can figure out how this apt-pkg thing works10:49
rburtonbut i'm scared at how synaptic does "#define protected public" before #including the headers10:49
fabbionemdz: 2389. what are we going to do with it?10:53
fabbionemdz: reverting the sec fix scares me a *LOT10:53
pittimdz: do you think it makes sense for Hoary to add an explicit 'mount as async' option to pmount?10:59
pittimdz: this speeds up writes a lot, but is of course less robust against not unmounting11:00
mdzpitti: I don't know, let's talk about it after the release11:01
pittimdz: okay11:01
mdzfabbione: I am writing a comment now11:01
mdzcan anyone here test printing to an smb printer with cups?11:06
mdzfor #2389?11:06
seb128mdz: for the inkscape problem, you said "easy to reproduce" ... you have it ?11:06
fabbionemdz: i read the comment.. i can't test.. sorry11:07
mdzseb128: yes11:07
mdzseb128: does it not crash for you?11:08
seb128mdz: no11:08
seb128according to upstream bug reports11:08
seb128"This is a known problem caused by the fact that you run 0.3911:08
seb128before. 0.38 is not compatible with 0.39 preferences file.11:08
seb128Remove your ~/.inkscape/preferences.xml and it will work."11:08
fabbioneok i need to ubuntify the other workstation11:08
mdzseb128: I have never run 0.39 and it happens here11:08
seb128and removing the file fix it ?11:08
mdzmizar:[/tmp/samba-3.0.7]  inkscape11:08
mdzThe program 'inkscape' received an X Window System error.11:08
mdzThis probably reflects a bug in the program.11:08
mdzThe error was 'BadValue (integer parameter out of range for operation)'.11:08
seb128I don't have the bug on fresh RC install from yesterday11:09
mdzmoving ~/.inkscape fixed it11:09
seb128ok, weird11:09
seb128I'll add a comment with that for the moment11:09
mdzmizar:[~]  head -1 .inkscape/preferences.xml11:09
mdz<inkscape version="0.38.1"11:09
mdzthe file does not look like it was written by 0.3911:09
mdzI can't reproduce it on a fresh install either11:10
mdzon the machine where I can reproduce it, I had opened inkscape at some point in the past, and played around with it11:10
mdzviewed some files and such11:10
seb128ok, so perhaps something in the preferences11:11
seb128I'll play a bit with it11:11
mdz0.39 is in DEbian11:11
mdzit is possible that I ran 0.3911:11
seb128I'll ask to the submitter if he ran 0.39 too11:11
mdzI copied my home dir from my unstable box when I installed11:11
mdzgood idea11:11
seb128hey thom 11:30
mdzI need to sleep11:47
mdzcan someone take responsibility for #2389?11:47
mdzi think the patch that I attached is good11:47
mdzthe submitter is testing it11:47
mdzit is a very simple change and is needed to un-break SMB printing for Warty11:47
pittimdz: hmm, no smb prrinter here either; I can assign the bug to me, but I cannot test it11:48
mdzthe submitter is testing11:48
pittimdz: good night, btw11:49
pittimdz: okay, I'll take it11:49
mdzok, thanks11:49
pittimdz: shall I upload if he says it's okay? (I look at the patch, too)11:49
mdzpitti: yes; it only changes smbspool in samba, so it should not risk breaking any other printing11:49
mdzI don't think anything else uses smbspool, but even if it did, cupsys is more important11:49
mdzthis is the only way to fix the security vulnerability properly11:49
pittimdz: right, printing is critical; good night!11:50
mdzif successful, the patch needs to go upstream and to Debian11:50
mdzDebian has an incomplete fix, and upstream's fix (which we used) broke smb printing11:50
mdzgood night11:50
seb128'night mdz11:52
fabbionenight mdz11:52
jdubrburton: gamin will be an acceptable replacement for fam in the hoary timeframe ;)11:58
rburtonjdub: so i should remove it from my laptop then? :)11:59
jdubrburton: i'm using it atm11:59
jdubrburton: some funny probs with nautilus desktop notifications11:59
rburtoni don't use nautilus for the desktop on my laptop, so that's not a problem :)11:59
jdubotherwise it works very nicely :)12:01
rburtonand i keep the fam package?12:01
rburtonor can that be removed too12:01
thomseb128/jdub/rburton: we're really gonna need a clean way to add stuff to the gnome session via packages for hoary; the xsession stuff happens too early (afaict) for stuff like networkmanager/fun things with powermanagement 12:06
rburtonthere are rumours of a new session manager for 2.1012:06
jdubthom: have you looked at msm in gnome cvs?12:06
thomis upstream looking at having somethiung like /etc/gnome/session.d or similar, and if not can we do something about it?12:06
thomjdub: no?12:06
jdubrburton: gamin and libs conflict with fam12:06
jdubthom: maybe check it out12:07
jdubthom: some of those ideas were behind it12:07
rburtonjdub: not in sid they don't, i presume you need to update the package there12:07
jdubrburton: hrm?!12:07
thomjdub: ok. is that likely to happen in 2.10?12:07
jdubit has not been discussed as prominently as other things12:08
thomright, so it needs evaluating testing and pushing?12:09
thom(assuming it does what we need)12:09
jdubit needs hacking, really12:09
jdubit's another hp-rainy-day thing12:10
jdubhe hacked it up, needs a champion to make it happen12:10
rburtonjdub: someone else had taken over developing... can you remember who?12:10
jdub(though someone in red hat may do it)12:10
jdubrburton: nup12:10
rburtoni hope g2.10 panel has XDG menus12:10
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jameshrburton: it sounds like markmc wants to add them (and alex wants to remove the applications:/// gnome-vfs stuff)12:12
rburtonapp-install really would be nicer with that12:12
thomlast msm changelog entries are from Ray Strode12:14
thombut that's January12:14
thomi'm gonna get lots of tea and dig12:19
fabbionediscover1 is broken12:30
jdubKeybuk: there?12:32
thomwhat are XDG menus, jooi12:34
thomor rather, what's the difference between them and standard gnome12:34
jdubthom: freedesktop standard compliant12:34
Riddelldoesn't standard gnome use XDG menus?12:34
Riddellwhyever not?12:35
jdubbecause they weren't standardised until very recently12:35
Keybukjdub: yup12:36
jdubKeybuk: the wallpapers xml file - is that referred to explicitly?12:36
Keybukthe desktop background properties dialog uses it, yeah12:37
Keybukwithout that, things don't show up12:37
Keybukthough the exact filename isn't important, just which directory it's in12:37
jdubso we can't dump a bunch of xml files in there and hope for it to work?12:37
Keybukyeah we can do that12:37
Kamionsabdfl: mirrors probably don't want to use rsync://cdimage.ubuntu.com/cdimage/releases/; they want to use rsync://releases.ubuntu.com/releases/, which is the new "simple" tree we created after the recent discussion12:37
=== sabdfl notes distrowatch ranking :-)
sabdflKamion: 'k thanx, asked last night but you weren't around, will update that page now12:42
Kamionyeah, I ran away for the evening :)12:42
sabdflKamion: good thinking, we all needed a rest12:45
sabdflok, updated it, might take a while for the apache cache to notice12:45
thomheh, we're 32 on the 6 month list at distrowatch12:47
=== seb128_ [~seb128@ANancy-151-1-3-32.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel
MithrandirKamion: 1659, I never got a response from you?12:54
=== jamesh wonders how much of the distrowatch ranking comes from developers checking the distrowatch rank.
KamionMithrandir: damnit, yeah, forgot about that12:57
Kamionmdz: can I make hw-detect run 'register-module rtc'?12:57
Mithrandirhe nightfaulted as of 1 hour ago12:58
Kamionfigure he'll read scrollback01:00
=== sivang [~pooh@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
sivangmorning all01:07
=== carlos [~carlos@69.Red-80-33-181.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== warthylog [~warthylog@port49.ds1-van.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== Topic for #ubuntu-devel: Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 5 (count 'em) major bugs
=== Topic (#ubuntu-devel): set by mdz at Fri Oct 15 04:25:21 2004
=== fabbione [~fabbione@port49.ds1-van.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-devel
fabbionenever trust an electrician01:46
fabbione"i will take 2 minutes"01:47
fabbioneit took exactly the time of UPS survival + 5 seconds01:47
fabbionei heard the UPS stop beeping and the server shutting down 2 seconds before he managed to give power back01:48
Kamionthey build UPSen that way deliberately, you know01:48
Kamionthey come with an electrician sensor01:48
=== fabbione sigs at 2411
fabbionethis is like:01:51
fabbionei dunno.. i can't find the words to explain it01:52
Mithrandirmdz: I seem to stumble into futex problems with rhythmbox as well, when changing songs.. sometimes, at least.02:02
pittidamn, I just wanted to decrease the major bug count to 4...02:05
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:pitti] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 7 (count 'em) major bugs
Mithrandir21:25 < mdz> consider RC = severity>=critical for the remainder of the release02:06
pittiMithrandir: I know, that's why the subject says 'major bugs' :-)02:07
Mithrandirah, ok02:07
pittiMithrandir: there are no critical bugs left (which is good, but boring as a competitive subject)02:08
pittiIs anybody opposed to downgrading #2409? sendmail is in universe...02:11
thomdo we even have that version of sasl?02:12
thomand yes, definitely downgrade whatever02:13
pittithom: we had some security updates IIRC, but I did not check02:13
pittithom: the version number in the bug report seems to be wrong anyway02:16
pittithom: both sid and warty have cyrus-sasl2 2.1.19-1.302:16
thompitti: i think that's the stable security release02:17
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pittithom: ah, this may be02:17
pittiHi mvo_!02:17
mvo_hi pitti, hi everyone!02:17
thomhey mvo. how're you?02:18
mvo_thom: fine, thanks02:18
mvo_I'm (mostely) back in ubuntu land now :)02:18
thomcool :-) exams and so on all done then?02:19
pittithom: I look in the source, to be sure02:19
seb128hey mvo_ 02:19
mvo_thom: I have to defend my thesis in one or two weeks (~45 minutes). but once that is done, I finally finished everything02:20
mvo_hi seb128 02:20
mvo_I'm really impressed about ubuntu! I played with it in the last week again and it's awesome :)02:22
pittiThanks for the flowers :-)02:23
pittiIt really rocks on iBook, sarge was pretty complicated to configure on it02:24
thombaby jesus is crying when he reads the users list02:24
mvo_pitti: yep, I installed ubuntu on a old G3 powerbook and it works like a charm 02:25
pittithom: still the theme trouble?02:26
pittigar, I just closed #2409, and now there's even another new major bug. :-(02:27
thompitti: yeah02:28
thomthat's kinda cute02:28
mvo_thom: nice :)02:28
Mithrandircan you get it over a longer time span?02:28
jdubthom: haha02:28
thomMithrandir: don't think so02:30
thombugzilla makes baby jesus weep02:43
thomit just seems to be optimised for making sure there's no possible way you can ever feel confident filing a bug02:45
=== warthylog [~warthylog@port49.ds1-van.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== Topic for #ubuntu-devel: Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 7 (count 'em) major bugs
=== Topic (#ubuntu-devel): set by pitti at Fri Oct 15 14:05:21 2004
=== #ubuntu-devel [freenode-info] why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
thomhrm, needs hacking some more02:56
thomit'll be a while02:56
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amuhey fabb1one you relocated to italy ? ....... because of the power failures? *ducks* 02:59
fabb1oneamu: power before.. kernel dump now03:00
fabb1oneeach time i move the server of 1 meter is always the same story03:00
amufabb1one: next times leave the computer at the same place and move the house:)03:05
fabb1oneamu: ahaha it would have been much easier :-)))03:05
amuhehe ;)  03:07
thomrburton/jdub: I'm trying to concoct a reasonable upstream bug report for #1358; is there a gconf that specifies what the Desktop directory is, or is it just always ~/Desktop unless desktop-is-home-dir (or whatever that key is called) is selected?03:36
jdubthe latter03:37
rburtonwhat jdub said03:37
thomright, so Firefox should probably just use ~/Desktop in a gnome environment if it's there, and if not fall back to the home dir?03:37
thom(or use the gconf key, if firefox can do that)03:38
rburtongconf key would be great03:46
aswHi! Sorry to interrupt but ubuntu-users and ubuntu-devel had a note about a documentation meeting today at 14:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting I don't see anybody there... 03:48
aswAm I confused?03:48
lamontasw: but that's nor for at least 11 more minutes... :)03:48
Kamionhornbeck's there03:49
aswthanks-- I see him there too.  He didn't reply when I asked if I was in the right place so I thought I'd ask here. 03:49
Kamionyou're in the right place, but I'm not involved with the doc team ...03:50
thomrburton: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=26451203:52
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rburtonthom: sounds great03:53
thomack. i'm thinking about writing a firefox patch03:57
thommust. resist.03:57
rburtonpoor thom has been near firefox too long04:01
thomok, i think i'm saved by my total lack of understanding of how the fuck it's supposed to work04:07
hornbecksivang: are you around?04:11
hornbeckdoc meeting is about to start04:12
sivanghornbeck : yes04:12
sivanghornbeck : here04:12
hornbeckget over to the meeting04:12
rburtonthom: argh04:38
rburtonthom: 550-Response: 550 <postmaster@burtonini.com>: Recipient address rejected: User unknown in virtual alias table04:39
rburtonthom: can you alias postmaster@burtonini.com to me please04:39
thomany others you've failed to mention? :-)04:43
rburtonthom: redirect vicky@ to vburton@gmail.com if you wish :)04:43
thomdone and done04:44
=== rburton resends mail
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=== pitti_ [~martin@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
mvo_rburton, jdub: how does gnome map the category of the .desktop files to the "Applications" menu (e.g. Category=Network -> "Applications/Internet")?05:23
rburtonmvo_: see /etc/gnomevfs-2/vfolders/applications-all-users.vfolder-info05:24
mvo_rburton: great! thanks a lot!05:26
jdubrburton, mvo_: you guys might want to chat about app-install, if you haven't already.05:26
rburtonoh pygtk2.4 in warty now05:26
jdubrburton: just for you 8)05:27
mvo_I was thinking about the app-installer a bit recently. I did a mockup at: http://people.debian.org/~mvo/synaptic/ideas/synaptic-app-idea2.png05:28
=== rburton puts his mockup online
mvo_rburton: nice!05:30
rburtoncheck box should probably be something magical05:30
rburtonand the latest version makes the names bold if the state needs to change (i.e. adding or removing)05:30
thomrburton: you should find whoever forced you to use that theme and kick their ass *ducks*05:30
rburtonthom: one day the world will see that Sandy Crack is a great theme05:31
rburtoni'm patient05:31
rburtonit's slowly happening, with ubuntu using browns05:32
rburtonman, my app-install code doesn't work on warty05:32
rburtonhow annoying05:32
rburtonpython-xdg 0.5 in warty is well bust05:33
sivangjustdave : ping :)05:44
seb128rburton: just report bugs05:49
tsenglamont: any chance to poke mono today?06:08
thomtseng: when next you upload mono, can you add amd64 to the relevant architectures lines please :-)06:11
tsenghmm i did it via proxy06:11
tsengis it something in my package, or after I handed it off?06:11
thomin debian/control06:12
thomso yes, in your packages06:12
tsengalright, ill be sure to check that out in the future.06:13
thomif i have some time i'll do it next week cos i rather want blam! and tomboy on my desktop :-)06:13
tsengthey rock.06:13
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nobseRelease schedule says 4.10 will be released next week. Is this realistic?06:16
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seb128hey mdz 06:36
thomhey matt06:37
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Kamionmdz: that partition table order bug is common to a few people, it's been reported on #ubuntu as well06:51
KamionI *think* it must be a bug in the kernel's partition table handling but it's hard to say06:52
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mdzKamion: does d-i not save copies of the answers to questions on the installed system?06:54
mdzKamion: was wondering what information to ask of the submitter of #241606:54
Kamionmdz: /var/log/debian-installer/cdebconf/06:54
mdzKamion: I see questions in there, but not answers06:54
Kamionquestions.dat should have all the questions06:54
Kamionthat's how we do d-i -> base-config answer propagation06:55
Kamionit should have all the answers too :)06:55
mdzah, there they are06:55
mdzstupid less defaulting to being case-sensitive06:55
mdzthese things get annoying after a few dozen installs...06:55
mdzKamion: are there any passwords in that file?06:55
Kamiond-i doesn't do anything with passwords; if it does they'll probably live in a different file06:56
mdzKamion: regarding 'rtc', unconditionally or only on amd64?06:56
mdzMithrandir: it's possible that rhythmbox, too, has some races which are uncovered by futexes06:56
mdzMithrandir: if _gzip_ could have hidden bugs, I think rhythmbox too :-)06:56
mdzMithrandir: try running it under valgrind06:57
=== Kamion glances through the driver
Kamionwell, Kconfig forces RTC off for PPC32, at least06:59
mdzpitti gone?06:59
Kamionmdz: if we weren't a few days before release I'd say on both i386 and amd6407:00
Kamionmdz: as it is, might be better to be conservative07:01
Kamionsince AIUI there've been no bugs reported on i386 due to missing rtc07:01
mdzI'm not even sure that we should do it on amd6407:01
Kamionwhat's the alternative?07:01
mdzKamion: rtc seems to get autoloaded for me on i38607:01
Kamion'grep -r rtc /etc' show up anything?07:02
mdzmodprobe/modutils stuff, and udev07:02
mdznothing that I would expect to cause autoloading of the module07:02
mdzperhaps it gets a hotplug event07:02
mdzOct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: lp0: using parport0 (interrupt-driven).07:03
mdzOct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: Capability LSM initialized07:03
mdzOct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: device-mapper: 4.1.0-ioctl (2003-12-10) initialised: dm@uk.sistina.com07:03
mdzOct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: md: md driver 0.90.0 MAX_MD_DEVS=256, MD_SB_DISKS=2707:03
mdzOct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: hdc: packet command error: status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }07:03
mdzOct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: hdc: packet command error: error=0x5407:04
mdzOct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: cdrom: open failed.07:04
mdzOct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: Real Time Clock Driver v1.1207:04
mdzseems to get loaded shortly after /etc/modules is processed07:04
mdzno idea why or where07:06
mdzhmm, actually that looks like _during_ /etc/modules07:06
mdzOct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: Real Time Clock Driver v1.1207:06
mdzOct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: input: PC Speaker07:06
mdzoh, never mind07:07
mdzpcspkr is not loaded by /etc/modules07:07
Kamionmaybe something else depends on it?07:08
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Kamion/lib/modules/ /lib/modules/ /lib/modules/ /lib/modules/ /lib/modules/
Kamioncould be something ALSAish?07:10
=== maskie [~maskie@196-30-111-153.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-devel
mdzI don't have snd-rtctimer loaded07:11
mdzand rtc has a 0 reference count07:12
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mdzfabbione, daniels: what happened with X?07:27
mdzwe're #5 on distrowatch's 1-month list07:28
mdzright behind Debian07:28
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amuhmm I run a pb4, i cannot listen with musicplayer mp3 oder streams, musicplayer only freeze and must be killed , it's just for me ?  07:30
amupowerbook G407:31
amuamu@ppc:~ $ rhythmbox listen.pls07:32
amuGettet means = coredumped07:34
Kamion"Killed", in fact; SIGKILL07:36
amuaaaah there's #2340  07:37
amu"Try recompiling07:43
amuRhythmbox (and, if possible, its dependencies) with CFLAGS equal or07:43
amusimilar to "-O2 -ggdb3 -pipe"."07:43
amu*shit* thats excatly what i dont want07:44
amuahha same on i38607:49
amuare there news about the liveCD ? 07:53
=== lamont_r wonders how the liveCD rcc handled...
Kamionlamont_r: what sort of handling?07:57
lamont_rdid it boot?07:57
Kamiondon't recall07:58
lamont_rsigh.  anyone with bandwidth wanna snarf 560MB?07:58
amuyap :)07:58
mdzairport, bbl07:58
Kamionlamont_r: grabbing, will be a while07:59
lamont_rshould even have the right artwork.  Beyond that it's just making sure that the package list is right.07:59
KamionETA 2:2707:59
lamont_reta 5:3808:00
amu23:50 :) 08:02
lamont_rKamion: clues on 1123?08:03
Kamionif that's the aliases.db bug, I'm as puzzled as you08:04
lamont_rwonder if he cancelled out of adding a user.08:04
=== Kamion hopefully kicks off a directfb build and wanders off for a bit
lamont_rKamion: we need to have a install doc somewhere that tells people that if they want to add themselves later in order to have the same (!=1000) uid on all their machines, they should really add themselves and then renumber/chown/chgrp08:07
lamont_rchatted with a user wed night who did exactly that and wondered what he'd done... fortunately, single user mode lets you in to fix what you did in that case.. :)08:08
lamont_rsyncing xvidcore will require new processing for the binaries, sadly08:08
lamont_ramu: HH:MM, or MM:SS?08:09
lamont_r(the upload took 18sec, giving 28Mbytes/sec.  kinda scary.)08:09
amulamont_r: ;) mm:ss08:10
lamont_rdamn you :-)08:11
=== lamont_r puts 1123 on his list of things to try to reproduce when he gets home and has a test machine again
amuis there a limit with 3MB/s ? my backup took it with 3mb/sec  08:13
lamont_rcould be your provider08:14
lamont_rI don't think our end has anything in the way of limits.08:14
amu;) it should be 12MB ;)08:14
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amuAH mlnet  08:18
lamont_ronly 3 hours until nap time. yeah.08:27
amubooting ... 08:32
lamont_rmorphix or people on the boot screen?08:35
amugrub ? morphix 08:39
amustart-splash is ubuntu, gdmsplash debian, started X ubuntu    08:40
lamont_rX started?08:40
amu& gnome panel crash08:40
lamont_rsomehow, that doesn't completely surprise me.08:40
amurunning a ... the "normal" brown background 08:40
lamont_rI wonder if ubuntu-desktop would take us over the top..08:41
amuthere's also a problem with detecting video-cards 08:41
amurestarting gnome-panel than it works 08:42
amuempty desktop ... you should add some icons on it :) 08:42
amuwhats the problem with the bootsplash ?  08:44
lamont_rI need to figure out what file to change.08:47
amumessage 08:47
amucdrom/boot/grub/message  08:48
amujust i second .. i guess alex do it in another way 08:49
lamont_rif -20 here fits (and the build succeeds), I'm inclined to put that out as a pre-rc for a day to get more feedback on it..08:51
amuyes message was it08:58
amufucking complicated to generate one, you need suse's sources ;)  08:59
lamont_rwon't happen before naptime then08:59
amulamont_r: it's urgent ? probably better if you wait 2-3 days more *g* 09:00
lamont_rhrm.. maybe we should get ubunut.com :-)09:09
=== lamont_r arranges to get all the bits he needs at home, so that he can test there.
lamont_ramu: -20 is ready to snarf09:16
=== lamont_r has a real good idea of one source of issues, that will require a nap before I tackle it...
amuisnt it better to send me the message file ? 09:17
lamont_r-20 has all of ubuntu-desktop in it, rather than just pieces.09:18
amursync ? 09:18
lamont_rthe other source of issues is that some of the packages may be coming from the wrong repository09:19
lamont_rrsync doesn't buy very much at all with the huge hunk of compressed blob in the CD>09:19
lamont_rtakes it from 560 down to somethign like 540 or so, in my experience.09:19
lamont_rand p.u.c doesn't have rsync set up.09:19
lamont_ramu: how many more hours will you be awake?09:20
lamont_ramu: I expect that the package with the message file in it is one of the ones under http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/local/warthog/09:21
amu.... just ping me, guess 3-4h more i'm here09:24
amu 665,544,704 ? is correct ? 09:25
lamont_rfor -20?09:25
amu530,511,872 09:26
lamont_ryeah. that one09:26
lamont_r9e7f56b9225d12666b867c1edb3458f2  warty-live-20041015-20.iso09:27
amu~25:00 ETA09:29
lamont_rin about 45 minutes, I need to go fetch kids from school, buzz past the doctors office, and go fetch a pair of CD's to take home.  Somewhere in there, I'd really like to get the rest of last night's sleep :(09:31
lamont_rbut I should be in a better position to build test images (one of those CD's is the rest of the .debs that I'm missing at home to do the build)09:32
amudid you generated the splash with mkbootmsg ? 09:32
lamont_rthe only one I've even touched is the one in local/warthog/bootsplash-theme-warty, which would be the one with people in it.09:33
amu;) thats the splash after grub 09:35
amu.. the bootingsplash09:35
=== lamont_r has no plans to touch any images until about 3 hours from now..
lamont_rof course, at that point, I'll be running around cluelessly trying to figure out what to change and how... :)09:43
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amui told you before, you need gfx source packages. bootsplash-theme-warty is the splash-theme while booting the kernel, detecting the hw 09:46
amuwhat you need isnt in your archive. That cost me once a time 1/2 night to figure out, what about those dammed splashes *g*  09:47
lamont_ramu: if you want to crunch through building the files I'll need, (and how to do that..), that'd be wonderful. :-)09:48
amuyust send me the pic, 5min. later you get your messagefile  09:48
=== amu inserts a trasparent al-kaido message in it *fg*
lamont_rgrab ubuntu-artwork from the warty archive, and then grab /usr/share/gdm/themes/Human/background.jpg09:49
lamont_rbut I do need to understand the process so that I can do it later.. :(09:50
amujust joking i`ll send you the sources and you do it ;) 09:51
amuhttp://amu.debian.net/lamont/gfx.tgz 09:56
amubtw. i suggest you buy some rewriteables ;)    10:02
lamont_roh, yeah.  got plenty10:03
amuyou got the file ? 10:04
lamont_ramu: did -20 boot ok for you?10:08
amui`ll test meanwhile -20 10:08
amuburning now 10:08
amuTrack 01:   95 of  505 MB written (fifo 100%)  10.3x.10:08
amuhow gfx works is clear ? 10:09
lamont_ramu: dunno - will have to look at it.10:09
amuconvert background.jpg background.pcx and run make 10:10
amu...inside the /SuSE dir 10:11
lamont_rtrivial. I like that.10:11
lamont_rof course, it helps to have the right packages installed... :-)10:12
amuyes, if you know how to do it ;) 10:12
=== lamont_r fetches imagemagcik
lamont_rthank you for saving me several hours of time that I don't have.10:12
lamont_rtime to run for a while.  fetching kids and bits.10:13
amuplease run a grep gnoppix, i do not know anymore which file i changed 10:13
makoi have now seen ubuntu spelled with *every* vowel as teh final letter10:20
makoi was missing 'a' but daf found it10:20
Mithrandirmdz: yeah, I'll valgrind it sometime tomorrow or so.  Tired now -> sleep10:21
Mithrandirand ubunt ?  (Yeah,  isn't a vowel in English, I know)10:22
dokohmm, noticing that /etc/debian_version still lists testing/unstable. I know we have /etc/lsb-release, but we should change /etc/debian_version to something different than the current.10:25
sabdflanybody have any idea what could cause a problem loading the floppy module during install?10:26
sabdflBung_ in #ubuntu is seeing it10:26
sabdflit's preventing him from getting to the hot artwork he wants so badly to see10:26
=== sabdfl runs quickly away
sabdfllamont: could you give me a quick update on the live cd status please?10:28
aswsabdfl: earlier today the doc team agreed I'd ask you about licensing... can I do that at some point?  (I'm sorry for the vague email I wrote you the other day.) I'm alexander wait. 10:33
amusabdfl: he left, he must change the the grub-splash, deactive some debug bootmessages, preconfigure the apps, i guess tomorrow he has something which is worth to upload10:33
sabdflasw: go ahead10:34
sabdflasw: email or irc10:34
sabdflamu: ok, thanks10:34
aswsabdfl: irc/telephone/in person in increasing order of preference. =^) 10:35
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sivangsabdfl : We've agreed that having everything licesned under GFDL sould oppose problem for debian incorporating our works, I suggested and collin agreed that a clarified artisitic license would be good, what do you think?11:07
aswsivang: absolutely but, say, I have a book "the emacs manual" with an invariant section "the gnu manifesto", surely, the extra work of evaluting such contributions on a case by case basis is worth the trouble (if you care about freedom.)11:19
aswwholesale excluding documents with (invariant) political speech is not "free".  imho11:19
sabdflhey mvo11:21
sabdflsivang: there are two separate decisions11:22
sabdflone is: what licence will we use for work that we create?11:23
sabdflthe second is: what other licences will we accept for content that is part of ubuntu, created by other people?11:23
sabdflwhich collin?11:23
aswsivang: why not a copyleft?  11:24
sivangsound good enough11:24
sivangI'll have to investiagte this further, and I have leave now. could we continue this on -devel?11:25
=== hazmat [~hazmat@c-24-15-10-12.client.comcast.net] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"]
carlosphp4-imap is not installable under ubuntu11:53
chrisaIs setting up an ubuntu mirror the same process as setting up a debian mirror?11:53
sabdflchrisa: basically11:54

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