[12:01] <vorlon> Keybuk: showed up on #d-release, I think. FWIW, I don't think libtool not being happy with ~ in upstream versions (the only part that appears in the directory name, after all) is a big deal for adoption, and I think it's already been claimed that the problem is fixed in current libtool.
[12:01] <Keybuk> rofl, it isn't fixed
[12:01] <doko> keybuk: good question, on #d-d or #d-r last week?
[12:01] <vorlon> jdub: hmm, what's esd getting replaced with?
[12:02] <vorlon> Keybuk: ok, then fix it already. ;)
[12:02] <Keybuk> and wouldn't ~ be most common in the upstream version?
[12:02] <thom> yikes, when did vorlon join :-)
[12:02] <vorlon> thom: I have always been here.
[12:02] <thom> hey dude
[12:02] <Keybuk> vorlon: can't, it's kinda core to the way libtool works
[12:02] <thom> damn.
[12:02] <vorlon> ;)
[12:02] <Keybuk> (libtool uses IFS="~" internally, basically)
[12:02] <thom> *giggle*
[12:02] <thom> vorlon: please don't start referring to mark as "the arrow"
[12:02] <thom> that would just be disturbing
[12:03] <vorlon> Keybuk: ah, well, whoever was noting it actually did suggest a patch, I apparently was under the impression it came from upstream
[12:03] <vorlon> thom: <lol>
[12:03] <Keybuk> it'd be far easier to fix dpkg to use a less silly character
[12:03] <vorlon> we're out of less silly characters.
[12:04] <vorlon> though you're right about it being more likely to appear in upstream version #s (duh), but even so, that's a per-package implementation problem, hmm? :)
[12:04] <doko> hmm, `=' doesn't seem to be used much.
[12:05] <vorlon> doko: makes it more fun to parse version specs in apt-get install commands. :)
[12:05] <vorlon> apt-get install ssh=4.0=rc5-3?
[12:05] <Keybuk> $version =~ m/[^-+:.0-9a-zA-Z~] /
[12:05] <Keybuk> ^ is the current regexp
[12:07] <doko> make the version string utf8 encoded and we don't have the problem anymore. utf8 is a hoary goal anyway ;)
[12:07] <Keybuk> I still like the bug that proves nobody *really* uses the hurd port
[12:07] <Keybuk> (dpkg can't actually cope with "-" in arch names :p)
[12:07] <Keybuk> let alone any of Millan's toy-of-the-week ports
[12:08] <doko> keybuk: we should continue this discussion on #debian-glibc, jeff's currently there :)
[12:09] <Keybuk> vorlon: there's actually remarkably many silly characters left to be abused *shrug*
[12:09] <vorlon> Keybuk: few that aren't already used somewhere else that would make it irritating to disambiguate and/or escape strings.
[12:10] <vorlon> Keybuk: face it, it's libtool's fault. ;)
[12:10] <Keybuk> heh, half the archive tools don't even support ~ at the moment; so it's a bit of a dead duck usefulness wise
[12:11] <Keybuk> oh, I agree; I've waxed lyrical repeatedly that libtool should use IFS="\0" internally which would also fix the space problem
[12:11] <vorlon> well, the archive tools don't need to support it until post-sarge anyway.
[12:11] <Keybuk> vorlon: the ones in sarge, like apt-ftparchive do
[12:11] <Keybuk> (though I think that's one of the few that does support it)
[12:12] <vorlon> meh, it'd be nice if they would, but the only real requirement is that *our* archive be able to handle it before they're allowed into Debian.
[12:12] <vorlon> (IMHO)
[12:12] <Keybuk> it would be nice if we could work out a way of removing this restriction that dpkg features need to be in a stable release first
[12:13] <Keybuk> it basically leaves amazingly critical things untested for too long
[12:13] <vorlon> Solution: we use Ubuntu as a guinea pig for everything.
[12:13] <Keybuk> like the bz2 support, I could merge it in but it's just not tested enough for a stable release
[12:13] <Keybuk> we have the same problem
[12:14] <vorlon> oh well, it was worth a try ;)
[12:14] <sabdfl> i don't mind being a guinnea pig
[12:14] <sabdfl> as long we we get it in early in the cycle
[12:14] <sabdfl> like, bz2 should go in immediately hoary opens up
[12:15] <thom> well, the real solution would be to have an ubuntu derivative called "debian madness" or somesuch
[12:15] <sabdfl> ununtu?
[12:15] <thom> and have all the daft ideas built in that on a weekly release cycle
[12:15] <Keybuk> hrm, I can't find that thread :-(
[12:15] <vorlon> thom: you *know* that would be a magnet for Gentoo users... :)
[12:15] <thom> vorlon: sure. and when they grow up, they use ubuntu
[12:15] <Keybuk> "Break My Buntu"
[12:15] <thom> it's a win alround :-)
[12:16] <Keybuk> because "break my ubuntu" is impossible for non-south-africans to say without dying of asphixiation in the middle
[12:16] <vorlon> question is whether the Gentoo users would actually give useful feedback for sifting out the buggy from the non. :)
[12:16] <thom> we should find some xhosa word with a nice glottal stop in
[12:17] <thom> vorlon: that would be the problem
[12:17] <vorlon> thom: and then we could use the glottal stop as a separation character in libtool.
[12:17] <doko> sabdfl: do guinnea pigs have something to do with guinnes ;)
[12:18] <daniels> thom: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=442
[12:18] <Keybuk> vorlon: some idiot would try to stick it in a filename
[12:18] <daniels> thom: gentoo is still the former distribution of choice for all the webforum people
[12:19] <Keybuk> actually, I've thought of a bright side
[12:19] <thom> vorlon: nice thought. i believe "xh" is the written form of a glotal stop for xhose tho
[12:19] <thom> xhosa, even
[12:19] <doko> daniels: ehh, no suse switcher at all ...
[12:19] <pitti> night, guys!
[12:19] <daniels> heh, some 'How did you find about Ubuntu?' thread
[12:19] <Keybuk> you don't *really* need to build packages in a directory named source-upstream
[12:19] <daniels> tempting to reply th that one
[12:19] <Keybuk> if you don't, dpkg-source will bitch, but make the .diff.gz anyway
[12:19] <Keybuk> but for everyone else, it'll still be unpacked in a directory named source-upstream
[12:20] <Keybuk> oh, wait, no
[12:20] <Keybuk> (was thinking it'd stop people shipping packages that ran libtoolize ... but it's libtool itself that's broken)
[12:24] <thom> g'night
[12:24] <daniels> thom: er, night
[12:25] <thom> daniels: why surprised?
[12:25] <daniels> thom: think of the kitt^Wtimezones
[12:25] <daniels> not surprised, it's just a little odd, is all
[12:26] <thom> 23:25
[12:26] <daniels> yeah
[12:38] <sabdfl> elmo: around?
[12:40] <elmo> sabdfl: yeah
[12:40] <sabdfl> how big is the releases only dir of cdimage?
[12:40] <sabdfl> rsync://cdimage.ubuntu.com/cdimage/releases
[12:40] <daniels> gah, only 60kB/sec from auckland; still another hour to go for desktop
[12:41] <elmo> 1.7Gb
[12:41] <sabdfl> and with hoary that would double?
[12:41] <elmo> sabdfl: yeah
[12:41] <sabdfl> thanks elmo
[12:42] <jdub> vorlon: polypaudio
[12:42] <sabdfl> you've been fantastic through the push to release, hope you get some rest over the w/e!
[12:42] <elmo> sabdfl: thanks, me too
[12:43] <sabdfl> is there a way for them to mirror both packages and release install cd's and live cd with a single command?
[12:43] <sabdfl> (but pref not daily cd builds, just releases)
[12:43] <elmo> sabdfl: no, unfortunately not
[12:43] <elmo> +yet
[12:44] <sabdfl> ok, we'll work on that in due course
[12:44] <sabdfl> for the brave mirrors out there
[12:45] <daniels> gah, no clue where this bloody acpi bug came from
[01:13] <amu> daniels: do you sleep also times or are you 24/7 awake ;) 
[01:29] <lamont> mdz: liveCD is progress, of sorts...
[01:29] <lamont> did y'all want X? :-(
[01:30] <mdz> lamont: please talk to alex about it
[01:30] <mdz> he's on jabber
[01:30] <lamont> awesome
[01:31] <lamont> then again, that's probably on the wiki
[01:32] <lamont> yep
[01:37] <mdz> err
[01:37] <mdz> lamont: I get a Morphix splash instead of an Ubuntu splash
[01:43] <lamont> that too
[02:30] <amu> hehe 
[03:31] <lamont> so why is it that I have to 'sudo nautius' to get a window?
[03:31] <lamont> nautilus, even
[03:35] <lifeless> lamont: I like that name, gotta find a use for it
[04:16] <mdz> heh, nautius
[04:17] <jdub> it was called naughtylus a lot when it was still 1.x ;)
[04:18] <Keybuk> ahh, eazel
[04:23] <hornbeck> mdz: the KernelHowto will have all the different options of building a kernel
[04:23] <hornbeck> I have gotten requests to show the different ways
[04:23] <mdz> hornbeck: great
[04:24] <hornbeck> mdz: what is there right now was what I got done at work tonight
[04:24] <mdz> hornbeck: I didn't intend criticism; I wasn't sure of your plans
[04:25] <hornbeck> I know, that is why I am letting you know
[04:28] <tseng> mdz: what do you think of the mono-on-buildhost situation
[04:29] <mdz> tseng: hard to say, considering I've no idea what that situation is :-)
[04:29] <tseng> mdz: well, most of the mono packages are failing
[04:29] <tseng> because mono-mcs has circular deps
[04:29] <mdz> I see
[04:29] <mdz> lamont: ping?
[04:30] <mdz> lamont should be able to take care of that
[04:30] <mdz> if he isn't around, send him an email
[04:30] <tseng> basically it needs the compiler to build parts of mono.. i installed them from sid to start out
[04:30] <lamont_r> 0.96 was problematic to bootstrap.. do we have sources somewhere to insert in to the archive?
[04:30] <tseng> there is a howto on bootstrapping
[04:31] <lamont_r> are we trying to bootstrap 0.96, or the new stuff from you tseng?
[04:31] <tseng> hm, no one is trying to bootstrap anything atm
[04:31] <tseng> but im looking at your build logs since we synced up my newer stuff
[04:31] <lamont_r> tseng: let me rephrase that... what are you trying to convince me to bootstrap...
[04:32] <lamont_r> so the new stuff is in our archive, and just needs to get helped through the binary circular dep-wait hell?
[04:32] <tseng> lamont_r: well, either bootstrap mono 1.0.1, or just install the bins
[04:32] <tseng> lamont_r: right.
[04:32] <fabbione> mdz: ping
[04:32] <lamont_r> could you email lamont@canonical.com a pointer to the howto, and I'll do that in the morning. right now trying to focus on the *&%)^_ livecd
[04:32] <tseng> will do
[05:56] (mdz/#ubuntu-devel) it was 32C here today
[05:58] <jdub> you'll just have to unlearn a new timezone ;)
[05:59] <jamesh> 21C here.
[05:59] <Keybuk> jdub: why should I care what the local timezone is? :p
[05:59] <jdub> so you can buy stuff
[05:59] <jdub> ;)
[05:59] <Keybuk> you don't have Internet Shopping?
[05:59] <jdub> then they have to wake you up to deliver it
[05:59] <jamesh> some of the supermarkets used to do internet shopping
[05:59] <Keybuk> and 24-hour Wal-Mart ?
[06:00] <jdub> none of the convenience stores here are 24 hour, because it's "too dangerous"
[06:00] <jdub> here being a ten or so block radius
[06:02] <daniels> jdub: wtf?
[06:02] <daniels> STREETS OF REDFERN
[06:03] <daniels> see, you should move to Melbourne, because every Sevvo is 24h
[06:03] <daniels> and there are a fair few 24h supermarkets also
[06:03] <jdub> daniels: yeah, it's totally the redfern thing. everywhere else is fine.
[06:03] <daniels> jdub: wow, that's wack
[06:03] <jdub> i'm going to have to think about an air conditioner or something, if this is any indication of what summer's going to be like. :|
[06:04] <Keybuk> most dodgy places seem to be <colour><plant or animal>
[06:04] <jdub> COCKFOSTERS -> not dangerous
[06:05] <jamesh> so gold coast -> not dangerous?
[06:06] <AndyFitz> monash uni is flying me down and back.  what champs
[06:06] <daniels> jdub: see, this is why we need to rename Redfern to Cockfosters, remember?
[06:06] <daniels> no more negative stigma
[06:06] <daniels> Keybuk: try Eaglehawk, Bendigo, Ballarat, Melbourne :P
[06:07] <Keybuk> see, those names are just made up
[06:07] <Keybuk> like Wallabarralooloo
[06:07] <daniels> Keybuk: dangerous places around here are Frankston (Franger), Broadmeadows (Broady), and ... well, that's about it
[06:07] <jdub> so i was wandering around the afternoon of election day
[06:07] <daniels> Keybuk: do you mean Warrnambool or Woolloomooloo?
[06:07] <daniels> jdub: did you take a knife?
[06:07] <jdub> and this dude was saying, "haven't seen any of those f*ckin blacks out here!"
[06:07] <jamesh> in Perth, people say that Northbridge is a bit dodgy.
[06:07] <Keybuk> jamesh: so do most geeks
[06:08] <jdub> which intrigued me, so i slowed down to listen
[06:08] <jamesh> the bridge that northbridge is north of is quite interesting though.
[06:08] <jdub> must've been the only two old gizzers brave enough to be racist pigs in this area ;)
[06:09] <jdub> intel make binary graphics drivers too now?
[06:09] <Keybuk> the area I live in is primarily Asian
[06:10] <jdub> Keybuk: when you say asian, do you mean indian too?
[06:10] <Keybuk> jdub: yeah, Pakistani and Indian
[06:11] <jdub> mmm, that's always sounded weird to me
[06:11] <Keybuk> why?
[06:11] <jdub> asian, in .au, pretty much means CJK, SEasian, etc.
[06:11] <Keybuk> see, I'd call them Oriental
[06:11] <jamesh> indians are called indians
[06:12] <jdub> definitely not indian (they're just called indians, much to the annoyance of the pakistanis)
[06:12] <Keybuk> uh, not exactly annoyance of Pakistanis ... I wouldn't *dare* risk calling a Pakistani an Indian
[06:12] <Keybuk> these are two countries that were nearly at nuclear war with each other only a year or two ago
[06:12] <Keybuk> people have been stabbed for less
[06:12] <jdub> a friend was booted out of a taxi for talking to the pakistani driver about indian stuff
[06:13] <Keybuk> indeed
[06:13] <Keybuk> at least with Asian, they don't kill you
[06:13] <jdub> but that's kind of a stand-out case here, as far as i'm aware
[06:13] <daniels> jdub: holy fuck, yeah, being racist in Redfern wouldn't last long
[06:13] <Keybuk> jdub: Britain, especially the midlands, has a very large Pakistani and Indian population
[06:13] <jdub> Keybuk: in .au, they'd seriously look at you oddly, unless they were UK "Asian" themselves ;)
[06:13] <Keybuk> largely from independance
[06:14] <daniels> Keybuk: asian -> SE Asian, North Asian/subcontinental -> Indian/Pakistani/Sri Lankan
[06:14] <Keybuk> Asian -> Indian/Pakistani; Oriental -> Chinese/Japanese/etc.
[06:20] <Keybuk> another interesting thing I noticed in the two weeks in London;  when out in an Indian restaurant, I'll only eat with one hand
[06:20] <Keybuk> wherease the aussies just shovel in with both :p
[06:21] <fabbione> YES!
[06:32] <daniels> fabbione: :)
[06:32] <daniels> Keybuk: huh? we use one for the knife and one for the fork ...
[06:32] <daniels> it's not like Aussies have some form of innate double-handed conveyor belt technique :P
[06:32] <Keybuk> heh
[06:32] <Keybuk> you'd be kicked out of my local balti for eating like that :p
[06:36] <daniels> which is good, because I don't eat like that :)
[06:45] <Keybuk> I mean for eating with a two hands in general :p
[07:34] <lamont_r> well.  that was painful.
[07:34] <lamont_r> I think I'm going to go back home and send some email
[07:35] <mdz> fabbione: moved?
[07:36] <mdz> fabbione: so I guess the new DSL is working
[07:38] <fabbione> yeps
[07:38] <fabbione> 100%
[07:38] <fabbione> i am checking all the machines and stuff
[07:39] <fabbione> mdz: anything special you want me to focus on for today?
[07:44] <mdz> fabbione: after a good night's sleep, and all of my high-priority issues fixed, I would like to revisit X
[07:45] <mdz> fabbione: the two autodetection fixes we talked about can go in
[07:45] <fabbione> mdz: ok
[07:45] <daniels> mdz: anything particular that needs revisiting?
[07:45] <mdz> I am still unsure about xkb
[07:46] <daniels> fabbione: which autodetection fixes rae they?
[07:46] <fabbione> daniels: the MAXRES and the res @60Hz problem
[07:47] <fabbione> mdz: Mark also asked to change the default X background
[07:47] <fabbione> daniels: do you have the patch ready?
[07:47] <mdz> fabbione: oh?
[07:47] <daniels> fabbione: i'm still unconvinced on not using the whitelist -- this will break stuff
[07:47] <daniels> fabbione: which patch, 099l?
[07:47] <fabbione> mdz: it's to change the black/white points to something more sane
[07:48] <daniels> or the colour patch?
[07:48] <fabbione> daniels: the color patch
[07:48] <mdz> I don't follow
[07:48] <fabbione> mdz: when X starts up
[07:48] <fabbione> you see the black and grey screen
[07:48] <mdz> currently it is black
[07:48] <daniels> fabbione: i still don't have the colour code
[07:48] <fabbione> black.. it depends
[07:48] <daniels> mdz: the proposal is to change this to the base gdm colour
[07:48] <fabbione> for me it takes longer and i can see the spots
[07:49] <mdz> interesting
[07:49] <fabbione> we can change it to the default gdm background
[07:49] <fabbione> that's Mark request
[07:49] <fabbione> the patch is definetely safe
[07:49] <daniels> i don't think you should see the stipple with -br
[07:49] <mdz> so he #76848F
[07:49] <mdz> er
[07:49] <mdz> so he wants you to change it to #76848F?
[07:49] <mdz> that is the solid colour background used in gnome
[07:50] <daniels> altough it probably initialises the root window with MakeRootTile, then bzeros the pixels or something equally crackful
[07:50] <daniels> mdz: would you be ok with this?
[07:50] <jdub> mdz: no, #e1ca96
[07:50] <mdz> jdub: what's that?
[07:50] <jdub> the gdm base colour
[07:50] <jdub> of the gdm theme
[07:50] <mdz> anyway, if Mark asked you to do it, who am I to argue? :-)
[07:51] <fabbione> mdz: the Release manager? ;)
[07:51] <daniels> fabbione: er no, he's the CTO
[07:51] <daniels> jdub is the release manager
[07:51] <fabbione> mdz: ok let's revisit the X changes again. one by one
[07:51] <mdz> fabbione: did he say "I want it in if it's OK with mdz" or "I want it in"? :-)
[07:51] <daniels> ok, I'll prepare a base tile patch
[07:51] <fabbione> mdz: the latter
[07:51] <fabbione> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~fabbione/boom
[07:52] <mdz> it seems insane to me that we should need to patch X to change that, but...
[07:52] <fabbione> mdz: it's hardcoded :(
[07:52] <daniels> mdz: insane != surprising
[07:52] <fabbione> ok hold on
[07:52] <fabbione> i need more coffee before we start
[07:52] <mdz> welcome to 1975, we have these things called "command-line options"
[07:52] <fabbione> i woke several hours ago to move the office
[07:52] <daniels> mdz: either the root tile gets initialised to the grey/black stipple (hardcoded), or the pixels get initialised to zero (-br)
[07:52] <mdz> no, I'm not surprised either
[07:53] <mdz> the stipple is hardcoded
[07:53] <mdz> so someone went to the trouble of creating a command-line option
[07:53] <mdz> to select a different hardcoded pattern
[07:53] <mdz> YAY X
[07:53] <daniels> mdz: not as heinous as ddxLoad, dude
[07:54] <mdz> black is great
[07:54] <jdub> means we won't need to patch it next time we change theme...
[07:54] <daniels> mdz: you're just hatin' on me 'cause I'm white
[07:56] <jdub> wtf
[07:56] <jdub> evo sans ldap support?
[07:57] <Keybuk> my brain just parsed "sans ldap" as a font
[08:04] <fabbione> re
[08:04] <fabbione> the electrician is giving me some extra plugs for the office
[08:05] <fabbione> mdz, jdub: should we go item by item again?
[08:05] <mdz> fabbione: I do not want to update v4l at this time
[08:06] <mdz> autodetection stuff is OK
[08:06] <fabbione> ok
[08:07] <mdz> the xkb changes are very difficult to judge because it is black magic
[08:07] <daniels> yes
[08:07] <daniels> i can't pass an opinion on the xkb stuff other than anecdotal reports from others of works vs doesn't work
[08:11] <fabbione> so what should we do with XKB?
[08:14] <mdz> let me look at the diff
[08:14] <fabbione> diff
[08:14] <fabbione> yeah well people.u.o/~fabbione/diff
[08:15] <mdz> I already have a copy
[08:15] <fabbione> ok
[08:15] <mdz> it is hard to read though because it is patching patches
[08:15] <mdz> not enough context
[08:15] <mdz> downloading source now
[08:15] <fabbione> mdz: ok
[08:15] <mdz> it changes a ton of layouts
[08:15] <fabbione> the diff doesn't contain the fix to the MAXRES -> $MAXRES
[08:16] <fabbione> but i have it here locally
[08:16] <mdz> 099l_xxf86vm_increase_verbosity actually decreases the verbosity by increasing a macro called DEFAULT_XF86VIDMODE_VERBOSITY
[08:16] <daniels> mdz: not quite
[08:17] <daniels> mdz: the verbosity level is 1 per default for console, 2 per default for logs (-verbose and -logverbose, respectively)
[08:17] <daniels> mdz: the way this does it (non-intrusive as possible) is it only prints that message via ErrorF() if the verbosity level is > DEFAULT_XF86VIDMODE_VERBOSITY
[08:17] <mdz> and apparently higher values mean less verbose
[08:17] <daniels> and it defaults to 3
[08:17] <daniels> no, higher values mean more verbose
[08:17] <daniels> so this patch only prints the strings if verbosity > 3
[08:17] <daniels> and since it is 1/2 per default ...
[08:18] <daniels> there is a better solution to this, but it's slightly more intrusive
[08:18] <mdz> so which part of what I said was incorrect?
[08:18] <mdz> it does make it less verbose ("decreases the verbosity")
[08:19] <daniels> yes
[08:19] <daniels> the macro is probably unfortunately namede
[08:19] <daniels> the correct fix is to use xf86DrvMsg() for everything, and use X_ERROR/X_WARNING/X_INFO/X_DEBUG as standard defined levels, but that's less intrusive
[08:20] <daniels> since it already has the if, just with stupid magic numbers (yay cruft)
[08:20] <daniels> mdz: become one with the crack
[08:20] <daniels> mdz: (it helps, seriously)
[08:24] <fabbione> mdz: v4l update killed
[08:30] <mdz> 099j_xkb_new_layouts.diff seems to only change ca, hu, mn and vn
[08:32] <fabbione> yes
[08:32] <mdz> 099z_xkb_fix_rules_xfree86.diff I do not understand
[08:32] <fabbione> it fixes ca and ca_enanched
[08:33] <fabbione> the latter is the one that makes some multilayout crap working
[08:33] <Mithrandir> Kamion: 1659; I never got a reply from you.
[08:33] <mdz> 099z_xkb_level3_ralt_switch.diff I do not understand either
[08:34] <fabbione> mdz: if i could explain that patch i would be able to understand XKB :P
[08:34] <mdz> isn't there a bug in our bugzilla about ca_enhanced or something?
[08:35] <fabbione> mdz: yes. there was a note in a bug but i couldn't find it anymore
[08:35] <mdz> 1089
[08:35] <fabbione> ETOOMANY XKB reports
[08:35] <daniels> hm, ralt_switch_multikey vs ralt_switch
[08:36] <mdz> I don't see how this fixes ca_enhanced
[08:36] <mdz> the bug report says: Error:            Can't find file "pc/ca_enhanced" for symbols include
[08:36] <mdz> Symlinking /etc/X11/xkb/symbols/pc/ca_enhanced to
[08:36] <mdz> /etc/X11/xkb/symbols/ca_enhanced fixes the problem.
[08:36] <fabbione> diff -ruN xc-old/programs/xkbcomp/symbols/pc/us xc/programs/xkbcomp/symbols/pc/us
[08:36] <fabbione>  --- xc-old/programs/xkbcomp/symbols/pc/us2004-10-08 22:36:37.000000000 +0000
[08:36] <fabbione> @@ -1174,7 +1172,7 @@
[08:36] <fabbione>  +    key <AB10> { [     slash,   question,  questiondown,        dead_hook ]  };
[08:36] <fabbione>  +    key <BKSL> { [ backslash,        bar,       notsign,        brokenbar ]  };
[08:36] <fabbione>  +
[08:36] <fabbione> -+    include "level3(ralt_switch_multikey)"
[08:36] <fabbione> ++    include "level3(ralt_switch)"
[08:36] <fabbione> mdz: the symlink is plain wrong
[08:37] <fabbione> mdz: i did ask Denis in private and Branden confirmed that
[08:37] <fabbione> the layout needs to be done properly
[08:37] <mdz> I can do setxkbmap ca_enhanced fine
[08:38] <mdz> with current Warty X
[08:38] <fabbione> mdz: the problem is not when you load ONE layout
[08:38] <fabbione> the problem is in multilayout environments
[08:38] <mdz> how can I test it on the command line?
[08:38] <fabbione> no idea
[08:38] <daniels> hm
[08:38] <daniels> multikey is apparently compose-like behaviour
[08:38] <daniels> so I would posit that changes the behaviour of right alt from a level 3 switch to a multikey level 3 switch
[08:39] <daniels> e.g. altgr-' (or whatever it is) would no longer be @ on a gb keyboard
[08:39] <daniels> based on that and my tenuous understanding of XKB, I believe the patch to be correct
[08:40] <daniels> but I disclaim that belief as much as possible
[08:42] <mdz> so in #1089, Denis said basically that the status quo is correct
[08:42] <mdz> unless we convert things from old to new format, which we aren't
[08:43] <mdz> the problem is that we cannot verify anything
[08:43] <mdz> this patch could completely break the hu, vn and mn layouts and we would have no idea
[08:43] <mdz> unless some user reported it
[08:43] <fabbione> yes and gnome people will say that is not true and that X is at fault
[08:44] <fabbione> mdz: not really. this patch completes the layout
[08:44] <mdz> and considering that probably 5 people use those layouts, and 1 of them uses ubuntu, that seems unlikely
[08:44] <fabbione> mdz: they were first imported in u23
[08:45] <mdz> u23 which was uploaded october 4th
[08:45] <daniels> mdz: i think we should just throw our hands up and wontfix that one; there's really nothing we can do
[08:45] <fabbione> or ubuntu24
[08:45] <fabbione> let me check
[08:46] <fabbione> i am not a super robot :P
[08:46] <daniels> why not??
[08:46] <fabbione> mdz: u24
[08:46] <mdz> ok, so it is fixing a layout that did not even exist until 1 week ago
[08:47] <fabbione> it's completing the fix for a layout that was supposed to be there and it wasn't in the beginning
[08:48] <mdz> I'm OK with 099j_xkb_new_layouts.diff
[08:48] <mdz> next up, 099z_xkb_level3_ralt_switch.diff
[08:49] <mdz> this one changes 34 symbol files
[08:49] <mdz> including en_US which is rather widely used
[08:50] <daniels> mdz: as I said before, I believe it changes the meaning of ralt on three-level layouts from a compose-like two-key-presses-for-one-character, to a more traditional altgr-like one-key-press-for-one-character
[08:50] <mdz> what is a three-level layout?
[08:50] <mdz> and why is that change a good idea
[08:51] <mdz> I don't see any ubuntu users saying that they expect it to do something different
[08:51] <daniels> standard layouts (e.g. us) are two-level -- you have the keys, and when you press shift, you modify them to use a different 'level', as it were
[08:51] <daniels> unfortunately pc104/pc105 isn't sufficient for a lot of people, so they need to go to three-level
[08:51] <daniels> so altgr acts in the same way as shift, but produces different results
[08:51] <fabbione> mdz: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=276143
[08:52] <daniels> so on a gb (england) keyboard, pressing ' gets you ', pressing shift-' gets you ", pressing altgr-' gets you @
[08:52] <daniels> (i'm not sure if that's the key @ was on, but I'm sure you get the idea.  they needed an extra symbol to accommodate the euro.)
[08:52] <daniels> most people expect altgr to behave like shift -- immediately switch them to level 3, so the next keypress is treated as a standard level 3 keypress
[08:53] <mdz> Unfortunately previous behavior broke other stuff.  This issue is very
[08:53] <mdz> tricky and won't get fixed in sarge, your best option is to specify
[08:53] <mdz> lv3:ralt_switch with altwin:meta_win.  But it does not work at the
[08:53] <mdz> moment, I will make minor changes to let it work soon.
[08:53] <fabbione> and he did
[08:53] <daniels> but, afaict, right now it's being treated as compose-like, where you press two keys to get one (e.g. pressing right alt-u-" on my configration gives me )
[08:53] <daniels> that's multikey
[08:54] <fabbione> mdz: i can send the new package to 1089 reportes/etc and see if that's ok
[08:54] <daniels> but I live in pc104/us natively, and the only other language I speak does the same.  so I can't substantiate this with anything much.
[08:54] <mdz> this doesn't even fix 1089
[08:54] <mdz> it fixes no ubuntu bug
[08:54] <mdz> and the debian bug it fixes is not severe
[08:54] <fabbione> mdz: 1089 will be fixed with X.org, period
[08:55] <fabbione> mdz: it might fix the sticky meta thing
[08:55] <fabbione> but i am not sure
[08:55] <mdz> this is not the time to make blind changes and hope they fix stuff, because they might make things worse
[08:55] <fabbione> 2288
[08:55] <fabbione> mdz: read above
[08:55] <fabbione> i can ask people to test the package across the weekend
[08:55] <mdz> who?
[08:56] <fabbione> ross is very responsive
[08:56] <fabbione> for 2288
[08:56] <mdz> does ross use this kind of layout?
[08:56] <daniels> gb (english) keyboards are three-level, yes
[08:56] <fabbione> gb yes
[08:56] <daniels> actually, dad's laptop downstairs is three-level
[08:57] <daniels> i can kick my little sister off it in half an hour, so I'll boot it into SuSE and arse around with XKB there as much as possible
[08:57] <mdz> in #2288 it sounds like in an earlier xfree86, we blindly took denis' patches from xfree86 svn, and they broke things for ross
[08:57] <daniels> (it has a euro symbol on the third level of 5)
[08:58] <daniels> mdz: the reality is, especially with the sparsity of these wacky layouts, most everything we do with xkb is blind
[08:58] <mdz> so I am learning
[08:58] <fabbione> mdz: if i read correctly the debian bug i pasted before
[08:58] <mdz> and that is why I don't want these changes
[08:58] <fabbione> and the fix denis did
[08:58] <fabbione> this change should fix ross problem
[08:58] <fabbione> is that an issue to ask him to test the changes?
[08:59] <daniels> yeah, I was about to say
[08:59] <fabbione> i can prepare packages in less than a hour
[08:59] <daniels> maybe put up a replacement xlibs on p.u.c/~fabbione/
[08:59] <fabbione> daniels: that was the idea
[08:59] <fabbione> mdz: if we get the changes tested, is that ok for you?
[08:59] <mdz> fabbione: it doesn't matter if it fixes ross' problem. at all.
[09:00] <mdz> what matters is what it does to the other thousands of users
[09:00] <mdz> regressions
[09:00] <mdz> we cannot regression-test this. at all.
[09:00] <mdz> it is not possible
[09:01] <daniels> correct
[09:02] <daniels> would we be better served by deferring it to hoary and seeing if anyone complains?  (that's the reality of xkb testing, especially with eleventy billion possible configurations, and that's just for English speakers -- you just hope for the best and see if anyone bitches.)
[09:02] <mdz> yes
[09:02] <mdz> that seems to be the only way to do this
[09:02] <daniels> i'm happy with that
[09:03] <mdz> let's do an ubuntu25 with "* Fix 1152x768 @ 60 Hz mode. (Closes: #2328)" and "* Fix a nasty bug in frequencies detection logic"
[09:03] <fabbione> ok so what do you want me to do?
[09:03] <fabbione> revert the  * In /etc/X11/xkb/rules/xfree86, move lv3 definitions after altwin so
[09:03] <fabbione>     that the former can override the latter.  See Bug#276143.
[09:03] <fabbione> ?
[09:03] <daniels> mdz: with or without the GetModeLine and/or gdm changes?
[09:04] <mdz> daniels: Mark says he wants the background change, and I assume that is trivial
[09:04] <daniels> mdz: relatively so, yes
[09:04] <mdz> relatively?
[09:04] <mdz> on a scale from 0 to XKB...
[09:05] <mdz> daniels: the getmodeline thing seems obviously safe, but I really don't see the point
[09:05] <daniels> the current code doesn't create any actual pixels using a cmap -- it just does 'foo.blackPixel' and 'foo.greyPixel', which are hard-coded into structures, or for -br, it just bzeros a struct, which ends up with a black pixel
[09:05] <mdz> it is just some noise in the log file
[09:05] <daniels> so it's not quite s/000000/otherhexcode/, it involves creating a pixel and doing a cmap lookup
[09:06] <daniels> taking XKB to be 20, I'd say about 1.3
[09:06] <daniels> mdz: fair cop
[09:06] <mdz> if you and fabbione agree on the getmodeline thing, go ahead
[09:06] <fabbione> i agree on 099l
[09:06] <fabbione> it is safe to me
[09:06] <mdz> I thought xscreensaver wrote a line when it locked anyway, but it seems to only do that when you use xscreensaver-command
[09:06] <mdz> not when the timeout elapsed
[09:06] <mdz> agreed, it is safe
[09:09] <mdz> so, X ubuntu25 = the last three '*'s in the changelog you sent
[09:09] <mdz> plus this colour change that Mark wants
[09:09] <mdz> daniels: how soon can you have that patch ready?
[09:09] <daniels> mdz: i'm on it now, just waiting for the tarball to extract
[09:10] <fabbione> mdz: hold on a sec...
[09:10] <fabbione> mdz: so no XKB changes
[09:10] <mdz> correct
[09:10] <fabbione> none of them
[09:10] <mdz> hoary
[09:10] <fabbione>   * Update "Further Information" section of FAQ.
[09:10] <fabbione>   * Add FAQ entry: What are Debian's plans with respect to X.Org and
[09:10] <fabbione>     XFree86?
[09:11] <fabbione> ok for you?=
[09:11] <mdz> if you must
[09:11] <mdz> I don't know why ubuntu users need this
[09:11] <fabbione> well it's documentation.. it's not like changing any code
[09:11] <mdz> but I will not argue over harmless text changes
[09:11] <jdub> pia just met rms
[09:12] <jdub> called me to yell about how much of an unreasonable ******* he was
[09:12] <mdz> you didn't warn her?
[09:12] <jdub> of course
[09:12] <jdub> she knew going in
[09:13] <jdub> doesn't help with the shock of direct realisation though
[09:13] <pitti> Morning
[09:16] <fabbione> mdz: ok i reverted the XKB changes and co
[09:16] <mdz> pitti: morning
[09:18] <daniels> mdz: 
[09:18] <daniels>         attributes[0]  = pScreen->whitePixel;
[09:18] <daniels>         attributes[1]  = pScreen->blackPixel;
[09:18] <daniels> versus
[09:18] <daniels>    if (blackRoot)
[09:18] <daniels>        bzero(back, sizeof(back));
[09:18] <daniels> cool, isn't it?
[09:20] <jamesh> bzero is deprecated
[09:21] <daniels> Copyright 1987 by Digital Equipment Corporation, Maynard, Massachusetts
[09:21] <daniels> dec is deprecated also
[09:21] <daniels> so are mullets and milli vanilli, but someone forgot to tell X
[09:22] <fabbione> daniels: gimme a patch
[09:23] <daniels> fabbione: don't be so hasty
[09:23] <daniels> you kids are so impatient
[09:23] <daniels> (as a more serious response, yes, I'm working on it now)
[09:27] <fabbione> mdz: 2346
[09:27] <mdz> yes?
[09:27] <fabbione> mdz: i am going to fake mdetect and see if something is broken in X or it is an hardware problem
[09:28] <fabbione> it is enough for me to let a fake mdetect to print a standard serial mouse output
[09:28] <mdz> I have a serial mouse here
[09:28] <mdz> I am not using it of course, but I could plug it in to test
[09:28] <fabbione> and see if it is X code or not that is broken
[09:28] <fabbione> mdz: it's easier to fake the test ;)
[09:28] <fabbione> but it's up to you
[09:29] <fabbione> if you have 10 minutes to spend go ahaed
[09:29] <mdz> tell me if it would help or not
[09:29] <mdz> if it would, I will do it
[09:29] <fabbione> mdz: it doesn't really matter. i can do it myself :-)
[09:29] <mdz> oh wait, hmm
[09:29] <mdz> I think I may have given away my serial mouse
[09:30] <fabbione> mdz: don't worry
[09:30] <fabbione> cat mdetect
[09:30] <fabbione> #!/bin/sh
[09:30] <fabbione> echo "/dev/ttyS0"
[09:30] <fabbione> echo "whatever"
[09:30] <fabbione> that's your serial mice
[09:30] <fabbione> :P
[09:31] <mdz> well, that would have allowed me to test if mdetect is not working properly
[09:31] <fabbione> mdz: according to the bug mdetect is working
[09:31] <fabbione> mdetect sees it if you're reminded to wiggle the mouse around during detection;
[09:31] <fabbione> but then it just spits out the psaux stanza only anyway which is a bit sucky.
[09:32] <fabbione> so there might be 2 problems
[09:32] <fabbione> mdetect sucks
[09:32] <fabbione> and a bug in X that doesn't handle properly the serial mice
[09:32] <fabbione> and i can check the X side easily
[09:38] <daniels> building now
[09:40] <daniels> mdz: there was a slightly cleaner way, which just involved having two unsigned char arrays filled with 0x76848F and calling PutImage with XYPixmap, rather than XYBitmap
[09:40] <daniels> we'll see
[09:44] <fabbione> a LOT
[09:50] <daniels> ?
[09:51] <fabbione> i nuked the svn repo for xfree86 ubuntu
[09:51] <fabbione> nothing really important
[09:52] <fabbione> but i mind that i lost the change history
[09:52] <fabbione> anyway Keybuk has evertyhing
[09:52] <fabbione> or almost
[10:00] <Keybuk> o/~ He's got the whoooole world, in his hands!
[10:04] <fabbione> mdz: 2346 -> mdetect problem
[10:09] <amu> moins
[10:09] <fabbione> moin amu ;)
[10:09] <daniels> moin
[10:09] <jdub> yo amu
[10:10] <jdub> welcome! :)
[10:10] <daniels> amu: fwiw, I caught about 3 hours worth of sleep today
[10:10] <amu> buona mattina fabbione
[10:10] <fabbione> amu: grazie :-)
[10:10] <amu> daniels, hehe 
[10:11] <Keybuk> daniels: bah, narcophile
[10:11] <daniels> Keybuk: it's true :\
[10:13] <daniels> (why oh why does mesa take so bloody long to compile)
[10:14] <amu> ARG my mailserver ( 700km away ) give up
[10:15] <Keybuk> daniels: I've been awake about 30 hours or so
[10:15] <Keybuk> so this code is either brilliant, or scary
[10:16] <Keybuk> but at least it's *unit tested scary code* if so :p
[10:16] <daniels> Keybuk: nice
[10:16] <Keybuk> though perhaps I should stop if I write  def testTakesOverTheWorldAndKillsHumanity(self):
[10:16] <jdub> heh
[10:17] <lamont> first root looks sane finally.  10-15 more minutes or so
[10:18] <mdz> daniels: according to jdub the correct colour is #e1ca96
[10:24] <Keybuk> so, we passed Knoppix on the distrowatch chart last night to become the #1 Debian derivative
[10:24] <Keybuk> if we get 20 more hits a day, we pass Debian itself
[10:24] <Keybuk> comical
[10:24] <daniels> mdz: gah!
[10:25] <fabbione> HMM
[10:25] <fabbione> the initrd.gz is getting bigger
[10:25] <daniels> mdz: i'll see if this works as a proof of concept, and if it does, I'll shang Fabio the patch with the corrected colour code; I need to run out in about half an hour.
[10:25] <fabbione> 10Mb of ram disk aren't enough anymore
[10:26] <fabbione> mdz: choose-mirror for final release. should we add the info from the official mirror list or should we wait for haory?
[10:26] <amu> Keybuk: where are those stats ? 
[10:26] <fabbione> mdz: installing at priority critical the question is not asked and archive is the default
[10:26] <fabbione> mdz: but at lower priority it is asked
[10:26] <fabbione> mdz: and it might be nice to have
[10:26] <amu> ah last 1 month ... 
[10:27] <Keybuk> amu: www.distrowatch.com, select daily
[10:27] <mdz> fabbione: does choose-mirror have an option to enter information manually?
[10:27] <fabbione> mdz: yes
[10:27] <fabbione> mdz: but only if prio < critical
[10:28] <fabbione> when you get the menu you have;
[10:28] <fabbione> enter info manually
[10:28] <fabbione> GReat Britain
[10:28] <fabbione> and of course if you select the latter there is only archive
[10:28] <fabbione> mirrors are easy to add
[10:28] <fabbione> it's one text file
[10:29] <fabbione> that needs to be synced between choose-mirror and base-config
[10:29] <fabbione> but it's not like high priority problem imho
[10:29] <fabbione> it's just a "it would be nice to have"
[10:29] <fabbione> hey sabdfl 
[10:29] <daniels> sabdfl: 'morning
[10:30] <seb128> hi sabdfl 
[10:30] <sabdfl> morning all
[10:31] <fabbione> time to convert my gf workstation into ubuntu :-)
[10:32] <amu> Keybuk: last night i added ubuntu to freshmeat  
[10:33] <amu> hey sabdfl 
[10:34] <mdz> fabbione: I think it would probably be OK, if we only add mirrors that we are sure will stay around
[10:34] <sabdfl> hey amu
[10:34] <fabbione> mdz: than i suggest we wait for haory
[10:34] <fabbione> hoary
[10:34] <fabbione> mdz: we will see stability of the mirrors for a few months before making them official
[10:35] <daniels> holy christ
[10:35] <daniels> mdz: that colour you gave me wasn't a pink stipple, was it
[10:35] <mdz> daniels: I have no idea, I passed on what jdub said verbatim
 mdz: no, #e1ca96
[10:36] <daniels> bongbongbong
[10:36] <daniels> failure.  i will be back later.
[10:37] <daniels> should be back within 6h, and I'll look at it on the train as well.
[10:38] <fabbione> daniels: gimme the patch before you go
[10:41] <seb128> mdz: yes, we can change the default shorcuts (re alt+print for screenshots)
[10:42] <seb128> hey hey rburton 
[10:43] <rburton> hey hey seb128
[10:43] <rburton> jdub: so do you think gamin is an acceptable replacement for fam at the moment
[10:44] <fabbione> elmo: ping
[10:45] <rburton> mdz: ping?
[10:45] <fabbione> hey ross!
[10:45] <rburton> hi fabbione
[10:45] <mdz> rburton: ?
[10:45] <rburton> fabbione: good news -- someone has made a patch for metacity which makes it xkb aware so the super bug is getting fixed both ends
[10:46] <fabbione> rburton: ah cool
[10:46] <rburton> mdz: i see your name in the python-apt changelog -- do  you maintain it or just make it build?
[10:47] <mdz> rburton: I am apparently the maintainer
[10:48] <rburton> mdz: i'd really be happy if it let me do apt transactions, add/remove packages etc
[10:48] <mdz> rburton: I'd be really happy if you sent me a patch to do that :-)
[10:48] <rburton> haha
[10:48] <rburton> fair enough
[10:48] <mdz> I don't have time
[10:48] <mdz> not nearly
[10:49] <mdz> you see I have this "Ubuntu" thing going on :-)
[10:49] <rburton> i'll have a look and see if i can figure out how this apt-pkg thing works
[10:49] <rburton> but i'm scared at how synaptic does "#define protected public" before #including the headers
[10:53] <fabbione> mdz: 2389. what are we going to do with it?
[10:53] <fabbione> mdz: reverting the sec fix scares me a *LOT
[10:59] <pitti> mdz: do you think it makes sense for Hoary to add an explicit 'mount as async' option to pmount?
[11:00] <pitti> mdz: this speeds up writes a lot, but is of course less robust against not unmounting
[11:01] <mdz> pitti: I don't know, let's talk about it after the release
[11:01] <pitti> mdz: okay
[11:01] <mdz> fabbione: I am writing a comment now
[11:06] <mdz> can anyone here test printing to an smb printer with cups?
[11:06] <mdz> for #2389?
[11:06] <seb128> mdz: for the inkscape problem, you said "easy to reproduce" ... you have it ?
[11:07] <fabbione> mdz: i read the comment.. i can't test.. sorry
[11:07] <mdz> seb128: yes
[11:08] <mdz> seb128: does it not crash for you?
[11:08] <seb128> mdz: no
[11:08] <seb128> according to upstream bug reports
[11:08] <seb128> "This is a known problem caused by the fact that you run 0.39
[11:08] <seb128> before. 0.38 is not compatible with 0.39 preferences file.
[11:08] <seb128> Remove your ~/.inkscape/preferences.xml and it will work."
[11:08] <fabbione> ok i need to ubuntify the other workstation
[11:08] <mdz> seb128: I have never run 0.39 and it happens here
[11:08] <seb128> and removing the file fix it ?
[11:08] <mdz> mizar:[/tmp/samba-3.0.7]  inkscape
[11:08] <mdz> The program 'inkscape' received an X Window System error.
[11:08] <mdz> This probably reflects a bug in the program.
[11:08] <mdz> The error was 'BadValue (integer parameter out of range for operation)'.
[11:09] <mdz> yes
[11:09] <seb128> I don't have the bug on fresh RC install from yesterday
[11:09] <mdz> moving ~/.inkscape fixed it
[11:09] <seb128> ok, weird
[11:09] <seb128> I'll add a comment with that for the moment
[11:09] <mdz> mizar:[~]  head -1 .inkscape/preferences.xml
[11:09] <mdz> <inkscape version="0.38.1"
[11:09] <mdz> the file does not look like it was written by 0.39
[11:10] <seb128> yeah
[11:10] <mdz> I can't reproduce it on a fresh install either
[11:10] <mdz> on the machine where I can reproduce it, I had opened inkscape at some point in the past, and played around with it
[11:10] <mdz> viewed some files and such
[11:11] <seb128> ok, so perhaps something in the preferences
[11:11] <seb128> I'll play a bit with it
[11:11] <mdz> hmm
[11:11] <mdz> 0.39 is in DEbian
[11:11] <mdz> it is possible that I ran 0.39
[11:11] <seb128> ah
[11:11] <seb128> I'll ask to the submitter if he ran 0.39 too
[11:11] <mdz> I copied my home dir from my unstable box when I installed
[11:11] <mdz> good idea
[11:11] <seb128> thanks
[11:30] <thom> morning
[11:30] <seb128> hey thom 
[11:47] <mdz> I need to sleep
[11:47] <mdz> can someone take responsibility for #2389?
[11:47] <mdz> i think the patch that I attached is good
[11:47] <mdz> the submitter is testing it
[11:47] <mdz> it is a very simple change and is needed to un-break SMB printing for Warty
[11:48] <pitti> mdz: hmm, no smb prrinter here either; I can assign the bug to me, but I cannot test it
[11:48] <mdz> the submitter is testing
[11:49] <pitti> mdz: good night, btw
[11:49] <pitti> mdz: okay, I'll take it
[11:49] <mdz> ok, thanks
[11:49] <mdz> night
[11:49] <pitti> mdz: shall I upload if he says it's okay? (I look at the patch, too)
[11:49] <mdz> pitti: yes; it only changes smbspool in samba, so it should not risk breaking any other printing
[11:49] <mdz> I don't think anything else uses smbspool, but even if it did, cupsys is more important
[11:49] <mdz> this is the only way to fix the security vulnerability properly
[11:50] <pitti> mdz: right, printing is critical; good night!
[11:50] <mdz> if successful, the patch needs to go upstream and to Debian
[11:50] <mdz> Debian has an incomplete fix, and upstream's fix (which we used) broke smb printing
[11:50] <mdz> good night
[11:50] <mdz> really
[11:52] <seb128> 'night mdz
[11:52] <fabbione> night mdz
[11:58] <jdub> rburton: gamin will be an acceptable replacement for fam in the hoary timeframe ;)
[11:59] <rburton> jdub: so i should remove it from my laptop then? :)
[11:59] <jdub> rburton: i'm using it atm
[11:59] <jdub> rburton: some funny probs with nautilus desktop notifications
[11:59] <rburton> i don't use nautilus for the desktop on my laptop, so that's not a problem :)
[12:01] <jdub> otherwise it works very nicely :)
[12:01] <rburton> cool
[12:01] <rburton> and i keep the fam package?
[12:01] <rburton> or can that be removed too
[12:06] <thom> seb128/jdub/rburton: we're really gonna need a clean way to add stuff to the gnome session via packages for hoary; the xsession stuff happens too early (afaict) for stuff like networkmanager/fun things with powermanagement 
[12:06] <rburton> there are rumours of a new session manager for 2.10
[12:06] <jdub> thom: have you looked at msm in gnome cvs?
[12:06] <thom> is upstream looking at having somethiung like /etc/gnome/session.d or similar, and if not can we do something about it?
[12:06] <thom> jdub: no?
[12:06] <jdub> rburton: gamin and libs conflict with fam
[12:07] <jdub> thom: maybe check it out
[12:07] <jdub> thom: some of those ideas were behind it
[12:07] <rburton> jdub: not in sid they don't, i presume you need to update the package there
[12:07] <jdub> rburton: hrm?!
[12:07] <thom> jdub: ok. is that likely to happen in 2.10?
[12:08] <jdub> potentially
[12:08] <jdub> it has not been discussed as prominently as other things
[12:09] <thom> right, so it needs evaluating testing and pushing?
[12:09] <thom> (assuming it does what we need)
[12:09] <jdub> it needs hacking, really
[12:10] <jdub> it's another hp-rainy-day thing
[12:10] <thom> ah
[12:10] <jdub> he hacked it up, needs a champion to make it happen
[12:10] <rburton> jdub: someone else had taken over developing... can you remember who?
[12:10] <jdub> (though someone in red hat may do it)
[12:10] <jdub> rburton: nup
[12:10] <rburton> i hope g2.10 panel has XDG menus
[12:12] <jamesh> rburton: it sounds like markmc wants to add them (and alex wants to remove the applications:/// gnome-vfs stuff)
[12:12] <rburton> excellent
[12:12] <rburton> app-install really would be nicer with that
[12:14] <thom> last msm changelog entries are from Ray Strode
[12:14] <thom> but that's January
[12:14] <rburton> ugh
[12:19] <thom> i'm gonna get lots of tea and dig
[12:30] <fabbione> discover1 is broken
[12:32] <jdub> Keybuk: there?
[12:34] <thom> what are XDG menus, jooi
[12:34] <thom> or rather, what's the difference between them and standard gnome
[12:34] <jdub> thom: freedesktop standard compliant
[12:34] <thom> ahr
[12:34] <Riddell> doesn't standard gnome use XDG menus?
[12:35] <seb128> no
[12:35] <Riddell> whyever not?
[12:35] <jdub> because they weren't standardised until very recently
[12:36] <Keybuk> jdub: yup
[12:36] <jdub> Keybuk: the wallpapers xml file - is that referred to explicitly?
[12:37] <Keybuk> the desktop background properties dialog uses it, yeah
[12:37] <Keybuk> without that, things don't show up
[12:37] <Keybuk> though the exact filename isn't important, just which directory it's in
[12:37] <jdub> so we can't dump a bunch of xml files in there and hope for it to work?
[12:37] <Keybuk> yeah we can do that
[12:37] <jdub> aha
[12:37] <jdub> excellent
[12:37] <Kamion> sabdfl: mirrors probably don't want to use rsync://cdimage.ubuntu.com/cdimage/releases/; they want to use rsync://releases.ubuntu.com/releases/, which is the new "simple" tree we created after the recent discussion
[12:42] <sabdfl> Kamion: 'k thanx, asked last night but you weren't around, will update that page now
[12:42] <Kamion> yeah, I ran away for the evening :)
[12:45] <sabdfl> Kamion: good thinking, we all needed a rest
[12:45] <sabdfl> ok, updated it, might take a while for the apache cache to notice
[12:47] <thom> heh, we're 32 on the 6 month list at distrowatch
[12:54] <Mithrandir> Kamion: 1659, I never got a response from you?
[12:57] <Kamion> Mithrandir: damnit, yeah, forgot about that
[12:57] <Kamion> mdz: can I make hw-detect run 'register-module rtc'?
[12:58] <Mithrandir> he nightfaulted as of 1 hour ago
[01:00] <Kamion> figure he'll read scrollback
[01:01] <Mithrandir> yeah
[01:07] <sivang> morning all
[01:46] <fabbione> never trust an electrician
[01:47] <fabbione> "i will take 2 minutes"
[01:47] <fabbione> it took exactly the time of UPS survival + 5 seconds
[01:48] <fabbione> i heard the UPS stop beeping and the server shutting down 2 seconds before he managed to give power back
[01:48] <Kamion> they build UPSen that way deliberately, you know
[01:48] <Kamion> they come with an electrician sensor
[01:49] <fabbione> yeah
[01:51] <fabbione> this is like:
[01:52] <fabbione> i dunno.. i can't find the words to explain it
[02:02] <Mithrandir> mdz: I seem to stumble into futex problems with rhythmbox as well, when changing songs.. sometimes, at least.
[02:05] <pitti> damn, I just wanted to decrease the major bug count to 4...
[02:06] <Mithrandir> 21:25 < mdz> consider RC = severity>=critical for the remainder of the release
[02:07] <pitti> Mithrandir: I know, that's why the subject says 'major bugs' :-)
[02:07] <Mithrandir> ah, ok
[02:08] <pitti> Mithrandir: there are no critical bugs left (which is good, but boring as a competitive subject)
[02:11] <pitti> Is anybody opposed to downgrading #2409? sendmail is in universe...
[02:12] <thom> do we even have that version of sasl?
[02:13] <thom> and yes, definitely downgrade whatever
[02:13] <pitti> thom: we had some security updates IIRC, but I did not check
[02:16] <pitti> thom: the version number in the bug report seems to be wrong anyway
[02:16] <pitti> thom: both sid and warty have cyrus-sasl2 2.1.19-1.3
[02:17] <thom> pitti: i think that's the stable security release
[02:17] <pitti> thom: ah, this may be
[02:17] <pitti> Hi mvo_!
[02:17] <mvo_> hi pitti, hi everyone!
[02:18] <thom> hey mvo. how're you?
[02:18] <mvo_> thom: fine, thanks
[02:18] <mvo_> I'm (mostely) back in ubuntu land now :)
[02:19] <thom> cool :-) exams and so on all done then?
[02:19] <pitti> thom: I look in the source, to be sure
[02:19] <seb128> hey mvo_ 
[02:20] <mvo_> thom: I have to defend my thesis in one or two weeks (~45 minutes). but once that is done, I finally finished everything
[02:20] <mvo_> hi seb128 
[02:22] <mvo_> I'm really impressed about ubuntu! I played with it in the last week again and it's awesome :)
[02:23] <pitti> Thanks for the flowers :-)
[02:24] <pitti> It really rocks on iBook, sarge was pretty complicated to configure on it
[02:24] <thom> baby jesus is crying when he reads the users list
[02:25] <mvo_> pitti: yep, I installed ubuntu on a old G3 powerbook and it works like a charm 
[02:26] <pitti> thom: still the theme trouble?
[02:27] <pitti> gar, I just closed #2409, and now there's even another new major bug. :-(
[02:28] <thom> pitti: yeah
[02:28] <thom> http://gmane.org/plot-rate.php?group=gmane.linux.ubuntu.user
[02:28] <thom> that's kinda cute
[02:28] <mvo_> thom: nice :)
[02:28] <Mithrandir> can you get it over a longer time span?
[02:28] <jdub> thom: haha
[02:30] <thom> Mithrandir: don't think so
[02:43] <thom> bugzilla makes baby jesus weep
[02:45] <thom> it just seems to be optimised for making sure there's no possible way you can ever feel confident filing a bug
[02:56] <thom> hrm, needs hacking some more
[02:56] <thom> it'll be a while
[02:59] <amu> hey fabb1one you relocated to italy ? ....... because of the power failures? *ducks* 
[03:00] <fabb1one> amu: power before.. kernel dump now
[03:00] <fabb1one> each time i move the server of 1 meter is always the same story
[03:05] <amu> fabb1one: next times leave the computer at the same place and move the house:)
[03:05] <fabb1one> amu: ahaha it would have been much easier :-)))
[03:07] <amu> hehe ;)  
[03:36] <thom> rburton/jdub: I'm trying to concoct a reasonable upstream bug report for #1358; is there a gconf that specifies what the Desktop directory is, or is it just always ~/Desktop unless desktop-is-home-dir (or whatever that key is called) is selected?
[03:37] <jdub> the latter
[03:37] <rburton> what jdub said
[03:37] <thom> right, so Firefox should probably just use ~/Desktop in a gnome environment if it's there, and if not fall back to the home dir?
[03:38] <thom> (or use the gconf key, if firefox can do that)
[03:46] <rburton> gconf key would be great
[03:48] <asw> Hi! Sorry to interrupt but ubuntu-users and ubuntu-devel had a note about a documentation meeting today at 14:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting I don't see anybody there... 
[03:48] <asw> Am I confused?
[03:48] <lamont> asw: but that's nor for at least 11 more minutes... :)
[03:49] <Kamion> hornbeck's there
[03:49] <asw> thanks-- I see him there too.  He didn't reply when I asked if I was in the right place so I thought I'd ask here. 
[03:50] <Kamion> you're in the right place, but I'm not involved with the doc team ...
[03:52] <thom> rburton: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=264512
[03:53] <rburton> thom: sounds great
[03:57] <thom> ack. i'm thinking about writing a firefox patch
[03:57] <thom> nooooooo!
[03:57] <thom> must. resist.
[04:01] <rburton> poor thom has been near firefox too long
[04:07] <thom> ok, i think i'm saved by my total lack of understanding of how the fuck it's supposed to work
[04:11] <hornbeck> sivang: are you around?
[04:12] <hornbeck> doc meeting is about to start
[04:12] <sivang> hornbeck : yes
[04:12] <sivang> hornbeck : here
[04:12] <hornbeck> get over to the meeting
[04:38] <rburton> thom: argh
[04:39] <rburton> thom: 550-Response: 550 <postmaster@burtonini.com>: Recipient address rejected: User unknown in virtual alias table
[04:39] <rburton> thom: can you alias postmaster@burtonini.com to me please
[04:42] <thom> sure
[04:43] <thom> any others you've failed to mention? :-)
[04:43] <thom> vicki?
[04:43] <rburton> thom: redirect vicky@ to vburton@gmail.com if you wish :)
[04:44] <thom> done and done
[04:44] <rburton> cheers
[05:23] <mvo_> rburton, jdub: how does gnome map the category of the .desktop files to the "Applications" menu (e.g. Category=Network -> "Applications/Internet")?
[05:24] <rburton> mvo_: see /etc/gnomevfs-2/vfolders/applications-all-users.vfolder-info
[05:26] <mvo_> rburton: great! thanks a lot!
[05:26] <jdub> rburton, mvo_: you guys might want to chat about app-install, if you haven't already.
[05:26] <rburton> nope
[05:26] <rburton> oh pygtk2.4 in warty now
[05:26] <rburton> sweeeet
[05:27] <jdub> rburton: just for you 8)
[05:27] <rburton> awwww
[05:28] <mvo_> I was thinking about the app-installer a bit recently. I did a mockup at: http://people.debian.org/~mvo/synaptic/ideas/synaptic-app-idea2.png
[05:29] <rburton> burtonini.com/computing/screenshots/app-install.png
[05:30] <mvo_> rburton: nice!
[05:30] <rburton> check box should probably be something magical
[05:30] <rburton> and the latest version makes the names bold if the state needs to change (i.e. adding or removing)
[05:30] <thom> rburton: you should find whoever forced you to use that theme and kick their ass *ducks*
[05:31] <rburton> heeeey
[05:31] <rburton> thom: one day the world will see that Sandy Crack is a great theme
[05:31] <rburton> i'm patient
[05:31] <jdub> CRAAAAAAACK
[05:32] <rburton> it's slowly happening, with ubuntu using browns
[05:32] <rburton> man, my app-install code doesn't work on warty
[05:32] <rburton> how annoying
[05:33] <rburton> agh
[05:33] <rburton> python-xdg 0.5 in warty is well bust
[05:44] <sivang> justdave : ping :)
[05:49] <seb128> rburton: just report bugs
[05:50] <rburton> aye
[06:08] <tseng> lamont: any chance to poke mono today?
[06:11] <thom> tseng: when next you upload mono, can you add amd64 to the relevant architectures lines please :-)
[06:11] <tseng> hmm i did it via proxy
[06:11] <tseng> is it something in my package, or after I handed it off?
[06:12] <thom> in debian/control
[06:12] <thom> so yes, in your packages
[06:13] <tseng> alright, ill be sure to check that out in the future.
[06:13] <thom> if i have some time i'll do it next week cos i rather want blam! and tomboy on my desktop :-)
[06:13] <tseng> :)
[06:13] <tseng> they rock.
[06:14] <nobse> hi
[06:14] <thom> heya
[06:16] <nobse> Release schedule says 4.10 will be released next week. Is this realistic?
[06:16] <jdub> yes
[06:16] <nobse> great
[06:33] <mdz> morning
[06:36] <seb128> hey mdz 
[06:37] <thom> hey matt
[06:51] <Kamion> mdz: that partition table order bug is common to a few people, it's been reported on #ubuntu as well
[06:52] <Kamion> I *think* it must be a bug in the kernel's partition table handling but it's hard to say
[06:54] <mdz> Kamion: does d-i not save copies of the answers to questions on the installed system?
[06:54] <mdz> Kamion: was wondering what information to ask of the submitter of #2416
[06:54] <Kamion> mdz: /var/log/debian-installer/cdebconf/
[06:54] <mdz> Kamion: I see questions in there, but not answers
[06:54] <Kamion> questions.dat should have all the questions
[06:55] <Kamion> that's how we do d-i -> base-config answer propagation
[06:55] <Kamion> it should have all the answers too :)
[06:55] <mdz> ah, there they are
[06:55] <mdz> stupid less defaulting to being case-sensitive
[06:55] <mdz> these things get annoying after a few dozen installs...
[06:55] <mdz> Kamion: are there any passwords in that file?
[06:55] <Kamion> no
[06:56] <Kamion> d-i doesn't do anything with passwords; if it does they'll probably live in a different file
[06:56] <mdz> Kamion: regarding 'rtc', unconditionally or only on amd64?
[06:56] <mdz> Mithrandir: it's possible that rhythmbox, too, has some races which are uncovered by futexes
[06:56] <mdz> Mithrandir: if _gzip_ could have hidden bugs, I think rhythmbox too :-)
[06:57] <mdz> Mithrandir: try running it under valgrind
[06:59] <Kamion> well, Kconfig forces RTC off for PPC32, at least
[06:59] <mdz> pitti gone?
[07:00] <Kamion> mdz: if we weren't a few days before release I'd say on both i386 and amd64
[07:01] <Kamion> mdz: as it is, might be better to be conservative
[07:01] <Kamion> since AIUI there've been no bugs reported on i386 due to missing rtc
[07:01] <mdz> I'm not even sure that we should do it on amd64
[07:01] <Kamion> what's the alternative?
[07:01] <mdz> Kamion: rtc seems to get autoloaded for me on i386
[07:01] <Kamion> interesting
[07:02] <Kamion> 'grep -r rtc /etc' show up anything?
[07:02] <mdz> modprobe/modutils stuff, and udev
[07:02] <mdz> nothing that I would expect to cause autoloading of the module
[07:02] <mdz> perhaps it gets a hotplug event
[07:03] <mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: lp0: using parport0 (interrupt-driven).
[07:03] <mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: Capability LSM initialized
[07:03] <mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: device-mapper: 4.1.0-ioctl (2003-12-10) initialised: dm@uk.sistina.com
[07:03] <mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: md: md driver 0.90.0 MAX_MD_DEVS=256, MD_SB_DISKS=27
[07:03] <mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: hdc: packet command error: status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
[07:04] <mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: hdc: packet command error: error=0x54
[07:04] <mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: cdrom: open failed.
[07:04] <mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: Real Time Clock Driver v1.12
[07:04] <mdz> seems to get loaded shortly after /etc/modules is processed
[07:06] <mdz> no idea why or where
[07:06] <mdz> hmm, actually that looks like _during_ /etc/modules
[07:06] <mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: Real Time Clock Driver v1.12
[07:06] <mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: input: PC Speaker
[07:07] <mdz> oh, never mind
[07:07] <mdz> pcspkr is not loaded by /etc/modules
[07:08] <Kamion> maybe something else depends on it?
[07:10] <Kamion> /lib/modules/2.6.8.1-3-386/kernel/sound/core/snd-rtctimer.ko: /lib/modules/2.6.8.1-3-386/kernel/sound/core/snd-timer.ko /lib/modules/2.6.8.1-3-386/kernel/sound/core/snd.ko /lib/modules/2.6.8.1-3-386/kernel/sound/soundcore.ko /lib/modules/2.6.8.1-3-386/kernel/drivers/char/rtc.ko
[07:10] <Kamion> could be something ALSAish?
[07:11] <mdz> hmmm
[07:11] <mdz> I don't have snd-rtctimer loaded
[07:12] <mdz> and rtc has a 0 reference count
[07:27] <mdz> fabbione, daniels: what happened with X?
[07:28] <mdz> we're #5 on distrowatch's 1-month list
[07:28] <mdz> right behind Debian
[07:30] <amu> hmm I run a pb4, i cannot listen with musicplayer mp3 oder streams, musicplayer only freeze and must be killed , it's just for me ?  
[07:31] <mdz> pb4?
[07:31] <amu> powerbook G4
[07:32] <amu> amu@ppc:~ $ rhythmbox listen.pls
[07:32] <amu> Gettet
[07:34] <amu> Gettet means = coredumped
[07:36] <Kamion> "Killed", in fact; SIGKILL
[07:37] <amu> aaaah there's #2340  
[07:43] <amu> "Try recompiling
[07:43] <amu> Rhythmbox (and, if possible, its dependencies) with CFLAGS equal or
[07:43] <amu> similar to "-O2 -ggdb3 -pipe"."
[07:44] <amu> *shit* thats excatly what i dont want
[07:49] <amu> ahha same on i386
[07:53] <amu> are there news about the liveCD ? 
[07:57] <Kamion> lamont_r: what sort of handling?
[07:57] <lamont_r> did it boot?
[07:58] <Kamion> don't recall
[07:58] <lamont_r> sigh.  anyone with bandwidth wanna snarf 560MB?
[07:58] <amu> yap :)
[07:58] <mdz> airport, bbl
[07:59] <lamont_r> http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/warty-live-20041015-18.iso
[07:59] <Kamion> lamont_r: grabbing, will be a while
[07:59] <lamont_r> should even have the right artwork.  Beyond that it's just making sure that the package list is right.
[07:59] <Kamion> ETA 2:27
[08:00] <lamont_r> eta 5:38
[08:02] <amu> 23:50 :) 
[08:03] <lamont_r> Kamion: clues on 1123?
[08:04] <Kamion> if that's the aliases.db bug, I'm as puzzled as you
[08:04] <lamont_r> yep.
[08:04] <lamont_r> wonder if he cancelled out of adding a user.
[08:07] <lamont_r> Kamion: we need to have a install doc somewhere that tells people that if they want to add themselves later in order to have the same (!=1000) uid on all their machines, they should really add themselves and then renumber/chown/chgrp
[08:08] <lamont_r> chatted with a user wed night who did exactly that and wondered what he'd done... fortunately, single user mode lets you in to fix what you did in that case.. :)
[08:08] <lamont_r> syncing xvidcore will require new processing for the binaries, sadly
[08:09] <lamont_r> amu: HH:MM, or MM:SS?
[08:09] <lamont_r> (the upload took 18sec, giving 28Mbytes/sec.  kinda scary.)
[08:10] <amu> lamont_r: ;) mm:ss
[08:11] <lamont_r> damn you :-)
[08:13] <amu> is there a limit with 3MB/s ? my backup took it with 3mb/sec  
[08:14] <lamont_r> could be your provider
[08:14] <lamont_r> I don't think our end has anything in the way of limits.
[08:14] <amu> ;) it should be 12MB ;)
[08:18] <amu> AH mlnet  
[08:27] <lamont_r> only 3 hours until nap time. yeah.
[08:32] <amu> booting ... 
[08:35] <lamont_r> morphix or people on the boot screen?
[08:39] <amu> grub ? morphix 
[08:39] <lamont_r> sigh
[08:40] <amu> start-splash is ubuntu, gdmsplash debian, started X ubuntu    
[08:40] <lamont_r> X started?
[08:40] <amu> & gnome panel crash
[08:40] <lamont_r> somehow, that doesn't completely surprise me.
[08:40] <amu> running a ... the "normal" brown background 
[08:41] <lamont_r> I wonder if ubuntu-desktop would take us over the top..
[08:41] <amu> there's also a problem with detecting video-cards 
[08:42] <amu> restarting gnome-panel than it works 
[08:42] <amu> empty desktop ... you should add some icons on it :) 
[08:43] <lamont_r> yes
[08:44] <amu> whats the problem with the bootsplash ?  
[08:47] <lamont_r> I need to figure out what file to change.
[08:47] <amu> message 
[08:48] <amu> cdrom/boot/grub/message  
[08:48] <lamont_r> thanks
[08:49] <amu> just i second .. i guess alex do it in another way 
[08:49] <amu> s/i/a/
[08:51] <lamont_r> if -20 here fits (and the build succeeds), I'm inclined to put that out as a pre-rc for a day to get more feedback on it..
[08:58] <amu> yes message was it
[08:59] <amu> fucking complicated to generate one, you need suse's sources ;)  
[08:59] <lamont_r> won't happen before naptime then
[09:00] <amu> lamont_r: it's urgent ? probably better if you wait 2-3 days more *g* 
[09:09] <lamont_r> hrm.. maybe we should get ubunut.com :-)
[09:16] <lamont_r> amu: -20 is ready to snarf
[09:17] <amu> isnt it better to send me the message file ? 
[09:18] <lamont_r> -20 has all of ubuntu-desktop in it, rather than just pieces.
[09:18] <amu> rsync ? 
[09:19] <lamont_r> the other source of issues is that some of the packages may be coming from the wrong repository
[09:19] <lamont_r> rsync doesn't buy very much at all with the huge hunk of compressed blob in the CD>
[09:19] <lamont_r> takes it from 560 down to somethign like 540 or so, in my experience.
[09:19] <lamont_r> and p.u.c doesn't have rsync set up.
[09:20] <lamont_r> amu: how many more hours will you be awake?
[09:21] <lamont_r> amu: I expect that the package with the message file in it is one of the ones under http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/local/warthog/
[09:24] <amu> .... just ping me, guess 3-4h more i'm here
[09:25] <amu>  665,544,704 ? is correct ? 
[09:25] <lamont_r> for -20?
[09:25] <lamont_r> 530511872
[09:26] <amu> 530,511,872 
[09:26] <lamont_r> yeah. that one
[09:27] <lamont_r> 9e7f56b9225d12666b867c1edb3458f2  warty-live-20041015-20.iso
[09:29] <amu> ~25:00 ETA
[09:31] <lamont_r> in about 45 minutes, I need to go fetch kids from school, buzz past the doctors office, and go fetch a pair of CD's to take home.  Somewhere in there, I'd really like to get the rest of last night's sleep :(
[09:32] <lamont_r> but I should be in a better position to build test images (one of those CD's is the rest of the .debs that I'm missing at home to do the build)
[09:32] <amu> did you generated the splash with mkbootmsg ? 
[09:33] <lamont_r> the only one I've even touched is the one in local/warthog/bootsplash-theme-warty, which would be the one with people in it.
[09:33] <lamont_r> brb
[09:35] <amu> stop
[09:35] <amu> ;) thats the splash after grub 
[09:35] <amu> .. the bootingsplash
[09:40] <amu> ok
[09:43] <lamont_r> of course, at that point, I'll be running around cluelessly trying to figure out what to change and how... :)
[09:46] <amu> i told you before, you need gfx source packages. bootsplash-theme-warty is the splash-theme while booting the kernel, detecting the hw 
[09:47] <amu> what you need isnt in your archive. That cost me once a time 1/2 night to figure out, what about those dammed splashes *g*  
[09:47] <amu> s/what/whats
[09:48] <lamont_r> amu: if you want to crunch through building the files I'll need, (and how to do that..), that'd be wonderful. :-)
[09:48] <amu> yust send me the pic, 5min. later you get your messagefile  
[09:49] <lamont_r> grab ubuntu-artwork from the warty archive, and then grab /usr/share/gdm/themes/Human/background.jpg
[09:50] <lamont_r> but I do need to understand the process so that I can do it later.. :(
[09:51] <amu> just joking i`ll send you the sources and you do it ;) 
[09:54] <lamont_r> awesome
[09:56] <amu> http://amu.debian.net/lamont/gfx.tgz 
[10:02] <amu> btw. i suggest you buy some rewriteables ;)    
[10:03] <lamont_r> oh, yeah.  got plenty
[10:04] <amu> you got the file ? 
[10:05] <lamont_r> yeah
[10:08] <lamont_r> amu: did -20 boot ok for you?
[10:08] <amu> i`ll test meanwhile -20 
[10:08] <amu> burning now 
[10:08] <amu> Track 01:   95 of  505 MB written (fifo 100%)  10.3x.
[10:09] <amu> how gfx works is clear ? 
[10:09] <lamont_r> amu: dunno - will have to look at it.
[10:10] <amu> convert background.jpg background.pcx and run make 
[10:11] <amu> ...inside the /SuSE dir 
[10:11] <lamont_r> trivial. I like that.
[10:12] <lamont_r> of course, it helps to have the right packages installed... :-)
[10:12] <amu> yes, if you know how to do it ;) 
[10:12] <lamont_r> thank you for saving me several hours of time that I don't have.
[10:13] <lamont_r> time to run for a while.  fetching kids and bits.
[10:13] <amu> please run a grep gnoppix, i do not know anymore which file i changed 
[10:20] <mako> i have now seen ubuntu spelled with *every* vowel as teh final letter
[10:20] <mako> i was missing 'a' but daf found it
[10:21] <Mithrandir> mdz: yeah, I'll valgrind it sometime tomorrow or so.  Tired now -> sleep
[10:21] <Mithrandir> ubunti?
[10:22] <Mithrandir> and ubunt ?  (Yeah,  isn't a vowel in English, I know)
[10:25] <doko> hmm, noticing that /etc/debian_version still lists testing/unstable. I know we have /etc/lsb-release, but we should change /etc/debian_version to something different than the current.
[10:26] <sabdfl> anybody have any idea what could cause a problem loading the floppy module during install?
[10:26] <sabdfl> http://www.pastebin.com/110626
[10:26] <sabdfl> Bung_ in #ubuntu is seeing it
[10:26] <sabdfl> it's preventing him from getting to the hot artwork he wants so badly to see
[10:28] <sabdfl> lamont: could you give me a quick update on the live cd status please?
[10:33] <asw> sabdfl: earlier today the doc team agreed I'd ask you about licensing... can I do that at some point?  (I'm sorry for the vague email I wrote you the other day.) I'm alexander wait. 
[10:33] <amu> sabdfl: he left, he must change the the grub-splash, deactive some debug bootmessages, preconfigure the apps, i guess tomorrow he has something which is worth to upload
[10:34] <sabdfl> asw: go ahead
[10:34] <sabdfl> asw: email or irc
[10:34] <sabdfl> amu: ok, thanks
[10:35] <asw> sabdfl: irc/telephone/in person in increasing order of preference. =^) 
[11:07] <sivang> sabdfl : We've agreed that having everything licesned under GFDL sould oppose problem for debian incorporating our works, I suggested and collin agreed that a clarified artisitic license would be good, what do you think?
[11:19] <asw> sivang: absolutely but, say, I have a book "the emacs manual" with an invariant section "the gnu manifesto", surely, the extra work of evaluting such contributions on a case by case basis is worth the trouble (if you care about freedom.)
[11:19] <asw> wholesale excluding documents with (invariant) political speech is not "free".  imho
[11:21] <sabdfl> hey mvo
[11:22] <sabdfl> sivang: there are two separate decisions
[11:23] <sabdfl> one is: what licence will we use for work that we create?
[11:23] <sabdfl> the second is: what other licences will we accept for content that is part of ubuntu, created by other people?
[11:23] <sabdfl> which collin?
[11:24] <sivang> kmaion
[11:24] <sivang> kamion
[11:24] <asw> sivang: why not a copyleft?  
[11:24] <sivang> sound good enough
[11:25] <sivang> I'll have to investiagte this further, and I have leave now. could we continue this on -devel?
[11:53] <carlos> php4-imap is not installable under ubuntu
[11:53] <chrisa> Is setting up an ubuntu mirror the same process as setting up a debian mirror?
[11:54] <sabdfl> chrisa: basically
[11:54] <sabdfl> rsync
[11:55] <sabdfl> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/download/mirror