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=== Topic for #ubuntu-meeting: Technical Board meeting Tuesday 19 October 2004 | Agenda on wiki.ubuntulinux.org/TechnicalBoardAgenda
=== Topic (#ubuntu-meeting): set by mdz at Tue Oct 12 19:45:33 2004
=== #ubuntu-meeting [freenode-info] why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
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=== Topic for #ubuntu-meeting: Technical Board meeting Tuesday 19 October 2004 | Agenda on wiki.ubuntulinux.org/TechnicalBoardAgenda
=== Topic (#ubuntu-meeting): set by mdz at Tue Oct 12 19:45:33 2004
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=== Topic for #ubuntu-meeting: Technical Board meeting Tuesday 19 October 2004 | Agenda on wiki.ubuntulinux.org/TechnicalBoardAgenda
=== Topic (#ubuntu-meeting): set by mdz at Tue Oct 12 19:45:33 2004
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aswHi! Is there a documentation meeting today? (In a few minutes I think...) 03:45
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hornbeckyes you are in the right place asw03:55
hornbeckI am helping the wife for a few more minutes than I will be in here03:56
aswIs there an agenda or a web-page for this meeting? 04:02
aswI only saw the notice is ubuntu-users/devel... 04:02
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hornbeckno there is no agenda04:03
hornbeckwe just wanted to get some people together who has some ideas on the docs and which direction we should go with them04:04
hornbeckbut we will give people a few more minutes to get in here04:04
aswok. will transcripts be posted?04:06
asw(I'm pretty bad at IRC so I'm happy if they are not...) 04:07
plovstranscripts are good for people who couldn't make it04:07
hornbeckthere you go04:08
hornbeckI do believe that there will be transcripts04:08
hornbeckmako: you really here?04:08
aswtranscripts are good I just hate all the spelling/grammar mistakes that are saved for posterity... =^) 04:08
hornbeckwell noone is perfect04:09
hornbeckthat is what spell check is for04:09
aswI don't know how to use spell-check with irc. (I use xchat)04:09
hornbeckI meant outside irc04:09
hornbeckI use xchat also04:09
hornbeckthere will be mistakes on irc because you are typing fast and trying to keep up with conversations04:10
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:hornbeck] : Documentation meeting Friday 15th October 2004 | Agenda on wiki.ubuntulinux.org/DocumetationAgenda
hornbeckwell I guess others will show up04:11
hornbecka couple more about to be here04:12
aswI have some particular things I'd like to work on but since I'm new I don't know what the etiquette is... 04:14
hornbeckhold one sec04:14
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plovswill docbook be used for documentation?04:15
hornbeckhold one sec04:15
hornbeckother main people are on their way04:15
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hornbeckdon't want to get in discussions and have them lost04:15
aswplovs: are you Poslavsky on the wiki doc-team page?04:15
=== plovs holding his breath
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hornbeckok, there is about the last one I was waiting for04:16
enricoHello, and good afternoon.  Sorry for the delay, I understood it was 16.00 UTC instead of CET04:18
sivangme also :)04:18
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hornbeckThere will be a documentation meeting this friday at 1400UTC in04:19
hornbeck#ubuntu-meeting on the freenode server04:19
sivangI'd like everybody to introduce himself a bit,04:19
enricoSince we're all here, we can start.  How about a round of introductions?04:19
sivangShall I start?04:20
hornbeckI am John Hornbeck, I worked with the Gnome doc team for awhile and have started alot of work with Ubuntu so far04:20
hornbeckI live in Oklahoma04:20
hornbeckis that good04:20
sivangI'm Sivan Green, I'm from Israel. I've started the /UDP page on the wiki, with some thoughts about04:21
sivangthe directions of ubuntu's documentation.04:21
enricoI'm Enrico Zini, Italy.  I've been working on designing a community-based approach to produce documentation04:22
sivangI'm a long time Linux user, programmer and have had experience with documentation on some corporate company.04:22
KamionI'm Colin Watson, Canonical staffer, Ubuntu installer team leader, really just lurking here while doing other stuff, since I've been doing the installation manual work for warty.04:22
sivangKamion : nice to see you here :)04:22
aswI'm AlexanderWait on the wiki -- http://non.fiction.org/~await -- I would like to see free software and ubuntu in particular more widely adopted in scientific applications.  I am working on a new alife project for my phd.  X3D/VRML, GNU Arch, Boinc (seti@home) are some of the technologies. I've used Linux commercially since 1993.  04:22
plovsI am AlexanderPoslavsky, I'm from the Netherlands,I work as windows admin, but prefer linux :)04:23
hornbeckhehe, I am a windows admin also04:23
sivanganybody else?04:23
sivangmako ?04:24
hornbeckI guess everyone else is just watching04:24
hornbeckso six of us than04:25
enricoEnrico, Sivang, Hornbeck, Asw, Plovs, Kamion04:26
Kamion(don't consider me part of the doc team please, as I said I'm just lurking really)04:26
enricoDoc team: Enrico, Sivang, Hornbeck, Asw, Plovs04:26
enricoGoal: Total world domination04:26
plovsit's a start...04:26
enricoI guess we're here to discuss how to get to that04:27
hornbeckwould you like us to discuss what we have done so far?04:27
aswyes please04:27
enricohornbeck: sure!04:27
hornbeckso everyone can be caught up to speed04:27
hornbeckok, I will start04:27
sivanggood idea, let's have an overview for what already exists.04:28
hornbeckI have mainly worked on the wiki trying to get alot of it up to speed04:28
hornbeckI have also worked on the start page for Warty and also working on the gnome-user-guide to go into warty04:28
=== plovs off to another meeting irl, i'll read th log and be back asap...
hornbeckI try to stay active on the mailing list so i get more ideas of faqs and other information that needs docs04:29
hornbeckthats it for me04:29
aswI'm completely new. 04:30
aswCould somebody mention JohnLevin, BenEdwards or KevinWixted (they are on the DocumentationTeam page)04:31
sivangI'd recommend everybody to take a look at the /DocumentationTeam page, see the people who are listed there to get an idea04:31
asw(Also robertbrimhall)04:32
sivangplease see also /DocumentationArea more wiki work by interested people04:32
sivanganybody correct me if I slipped away any other piece of index web, for what others have done by now.04:33
hornbecklooks right to me04:34
enricoAs of myself, I'm less of a documentation person and more I'm more interested in user-centered design and in facilitating community creativity04:34
hornbeckok, so we know who we are now04:36
hornbeckI have a few questions 04:36
hornbeckenrico: Where would you like us to be as far as docs, for Hoary04:37
hornbeckthat is a large question I know04:37
enricoThat is a large question04:38
hornbeckok I will make it smaller04:38
sivangLet's try and see what we can see for warty, both offline and wiki wise. We might want to concentrate on a modest milestone, and after warty to head up for the big plans for Hoary.04:38
hornbecksivang: warty is about out the door04:39
aswI'm reading http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/HoaryHedgehog_2fReleaseSchedule04:39
hornbeckwe can do keep up docs for it, but the goal as I see it right now is Hoary04:39
hornbeckenrico: a better start question would be, what areas are we looking at documenting04:40
enricosivang: yes.  It's reasonable to start some working together first, then make release-oriented plans04:40
aswSo there is a "seedFreeze" Nov.29 and feature freeze feb.7   when do we stop writing documentation?  I want to understand how much time we have. 04:41
enricoSo, ideally, there should be no documentation at all.  Programs should just work, and do what users want.04:41
hornbeckasw: we are still working on docs for warty04:41
Kamionyou guys don't have to worry about the seed freeze very much04:41
hornbeckenrico: yes04:41
enricoDocumentation comes in when programs are not that clear, or when the users don't know what they want04:42
enricoThis highlight two fields of working :)04:42
Kamionthe problem you'll have is that not all the documentation you'll need to write will be clear *until* feature freeze04:42
Kamionbut by shortly after feature freeze you'll probably want to have the guts of most of the docs and then start polishing04:43
hornbeckso alot of late night before a release04:43
enricoKamion: yes.  Which brings us back to the debian categorizatin problem: how can I have a good category database without even knowing what software is in the distr?04:43
enricoAnd, in the traditional computer-science style, what we need to do is change the nature of the problem ;)04:43
hornbeckenrico: that comes back to, what all are we going to document04:44
hornbeckare we going to have our own docs for everything?04:44
enricohornbeck: docs for everything?  No, please no04:44
enricoThat would be bad, for various things04:44
hornbeckor are we going to use docs from other places and feel in the spots04:44
enrico - disrespect for all the good work that already exists04:44
enrico - lots of work to do04:44
hornbeckenrico: I was just giving a example04:44
hornbecknot asking to do so04:45
enrico - it would disconnect us from the rest fo the community04:45
pittiDoc should handled similar to packages: keep ubuntu-specific changes, but base on upstream docs04:45
enricohornbeck: ah, ok, sorry :)04:45
sivangpitti : exactly04:45
pittiAFAICS you can even use the same tools (diff, etc.) for it04:45
enricoSo, back to my original discourse, one line of working would be see what's unclear in Warty, then check if it's been either fixed in Hoary or if it needs documenting04:45
sivangyes, and that would enable us to feed debian back, as our ROCK04:45
aswI am interested in documenting specific subsystems (eg hardware accelerated 3D), GNU Arch for developersm, maybe TeXmacs... in general I'm interested in working on "Ubuntu for Scientists"04:46
enricoWorking based on what the issues are will also allow us to produce documentation which addresses what users are actually trying to do04:46
sivangIdeally we should probably follow this to start up a bit:04:47
sivang1) Identify the goal our users might want to accomplish.04:48
enricoI see we're having two identities here: from one side we have frenzy in the hands and we want to *write*, and from the other we are into a designing phase for the work04:48
=== sivang agrees
=== hornbeck agrees also
enricoOn these two identities, both are important, and one kills the other04:48
Kamionyou might find it easier to start from reviews of the existing upstream and Debian documentation and work out what needs to be added/contributed/improved04:48
enricoThis is a nice Hegelian dialectic04:48
enricoResolving dialectics lead to Genius, and of course Total World Domination04:49
sivang2) Investigate current works to see relevancy and suitability.04:49
enrico3) Establish channels and formats for dissemination of the documentation04:49
sivang3) See how we might carry on them, to produce ubuntu compatible education.04:49
sivangoh :)04:49
enricosivang: sorry for overlapping04:50
sivangsorry for taking #304:50
enricoasw: ubuntu for scientists... noted!04:50
aswI have some very basic questions about licensing too. (And yes I have strong flame-war generating opinions...) 04:50
aswI have a silly IRC question. was the message "asw: ubuntuy for scientists... notes!" private? sorry for being an idiot.04:51
enricoKamion: review, yes, but starting from existing issues04:51
Kamionasw: no.04:51
hornbeckenrico: so let me make sure I am understanding04:51
hornbecksee what existing issues there are right now.  Start with docs that will address those issues04:52
enricoasw: no, I sent it into the channel: I just wanted to acknowledge your interest04:52
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aswenrico, kamion: thanks but why is it highlighted on my xchat screen.  04:52
hornbeckasw: cause it has your name on it04:53
enricohornbeck: or, given the issues, see what documentation is around and see if we need to produce something new, point to something existing, produce a short doc that points to something existing "for knowing more"04:53
hornbeckenrico: Ok I understand04:53
=== enrico feel like he should present his plan to the group, for wider discussion
=== enrico feels like the text he's made won't fit into a single line in IRC
enricoDo we have a mailing list to post things for review and have discussions?04:54
hornbecknot yet04:54
aswis it possible for somebody like me to work on a section of docs like "ubuntu for scientists" while keeping up with/staying out of the way of whatever the rest of you are doing? 04:54
enricoI don't mind using existing mailing lists for production, but it may be useful to have one for coordination04:54
sivangenrico : why don't we publish on the wiki somewhere also?04:54
Kamionenrico: use ubuntu-devel@ and put [doc]  in the subject line, please04:54
hornbeckenrico: please say something to mdz about our own list04:55
enricoKamion: if we fit there, ok04:55
Kamionmdz already expressed an opinion on this04:55
Kamionwhich was "use ubuntu-devel@ and put [doc]  in the subject line, please" :-)04:55
aswactually I could see why coordinating with devel is a really good idea.04:55
aswmaybe it's not so bad if we are exposed to their traffic? 04:55
enricoKamion: ok04:55
Kamionthe problem with a separate list in the beginning is that it means the doc team is likely to get disconnected too much from development activity04:56
=== enrico generally agrees with mako's idea that every time one creates a new mailing list, God kills a kitten
hornbeckKamion: I see the point in that04:56
aswenrico: can you put your idea on a wiki page or maybe on today's meeting page?04:57
enricoKamion: won't people bother if we'll start dumping on -devel our delirious world domination plans?04:57
=== sivang feel ths same
enricoasw: it'll take a while for me to do the wiki formatting, though04:57
hornbeckenrico: they said if we start over crowding than we can have our own04:57
Kamionenrico: well, you shouldn't be getting too delirious anyway :)04:58
enricoKamion: (this is just to get a "don't worry" from you, so that we can dodge compalints)04:58
enricoKamion: Damn!  No "don't worry"! :)04:58
hornbeckenrico: put it all in a mail, and I can put on the wiki today04:58
Kamionenrico: we'd like to know what you're doing; in general you should be keeping discussion fairly tightly on-topic04:58
sivangKamion : does this also applies to before release tight times? :)04:59
hornbeckKamion: you guys just want to watch over us huh?04:59
enricoAfter the meeting I'll work on publishing my plan (with hornbeck maybe) and on summarizing recent discussion with sivang04:59
Kamionhornbeck: well, new teams starting up often need some supervision in most organisations04:59
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Kamionsivang: yes, we can cope with a bit more mail; just don't wibble :)05:00
hornbeckKamion: right, you guys like to watch05:00
Kamionhornbeck: we'll split it out if it becomes an issue05:00
=== sivang suggest the "Ubuntu Documentation Team" reality TV show.
=== hornbeck would get naked in the pool all the time
enricoCasually, we have pictures of ubuntu people naked in the pool already :)05:01
enricoHowever, back to the plans, we have:05:01
enrico 1) Some draft long-term plans05:01
enrico 2) Some titles for ubuntu-specific guides (coming from the UDP wiki page mostly, I image from sivang and hornbeck)05:02
hornbeckenrico: I think we should shoot for this http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/index.xml05:03
=== enrico has a look, feels we can do better
hornbeckenrico: they have docs for just about all issues I ever ran into for gentoo05:03
enricoThen, we'll have docs to make you run in even more issues!! ;)05:04
=== sivang nods
enricoWell, the idea is that you should never run into an issue with Ubuntu, and we focus on showing how to do creative things05:04
enricoI wouldn't mind finally taking Linux out of the troubleshooting and customization and finally into the "how to remove the red eyes to your digital camera pictures"05:05
Kamion(enrico raises a good point; please don't document workarounds for problems that you should be telling us to fix instead)05:05
hornbeckthat would be nice05:05
sivangmaking the illusion we have squashed all other issues, so you wind up asking, what can I do with Ubuntu today? :)05:05
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hornbeckenrico, Kamion: good ideas but we are not there yet05:06
aswSo what about licensing (GFDL?) and style guidelines?  Somebody mentioned docbook?05:06
enricoasw: good question05:06
sivangYes, I have :)05:06
hornbeckdocbook is nice05:06
enricoKamion: are there policies about licenses for documentation?05:07
sivangGFDL would be great.05:07
enricoKamion: GFDL but without invariant sessions?05:07
aswI've recently inherited the "REC.GAMES.COREWAR" faq and I will need to use something for that.  It's plaintext/html at the moment... 05:07
enricoKamion: GPL altogehter?05:07
=== enrico wouldn't mind creating GPL documentation, which would be supercool
enricoThat is, we should distribute the source form, including, for example, spreadsheets we used to generate the graphics and so on)05:08
aswFrankly I have watched the folks at MIT debate over invariant sections and if ubuntu is about freedom then political speech aka invariant sections should be permitted.  It's just complicated and maybe out of scope for this meeting... 05:08
aswI think Debian has made the wrong decision with respect to invariant sections. 05:08
enricoI'd honestly ask upstairs (sabdfl or something like that) for that05:08
aswIt's one of the reasons I'm interested in ubuntu. 05:08
Kamionwe don't have a hard objection to the GFDL, but since we would like to send improvements back to Debian I'd strongly recommend that you avoid the GFDL and invariant sections in documentation you write.05:09
=== sivang backs enrico with GPL altogehter?
Kamionit'll just create unnecessary barriers05:09
=== sivang backs enrico with GPL altogehter
aswkamion: this is practical... 05:09
hornbeckI think GPL would be nice05:09
Kamion(I'm not authoritative on this, BTW, just an opinion)05:09
sivangor there's even the artistic license, if we really want to get nasty :)05:09
enricoWhatever the license (we can delegate decisions on that, Italian style ;) , let's talk about formats05:10
hornbeckshould someone hop to ubuntu-devel and ask05:10
Kamionthe artistic licence is ... not ideal. clarified artistic isn't too bad.05:10
enricoFrom one side, we are probably creating some books, so docbook qualifies05:10
sivangI think docbook is preferable, and we should use debian DTD.05:10
aswenrico: sabdfl?05:10
sivangKamion : agreed05:10
enricoFrom the other side, we are probably writing items into Plone05:10
Kamionasw: sabdfl is Mark Shuttleworth's IRC nick05:11
thomi think most debian developers would recommend avoiding the gfdl as it stands05:11
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enricoIt would be interesting making something to drag Plone items into Docbook, should we aggregate things from Plone into a book05:11
enricoAnd the other way round to post the aggregation into Plone05:11
enricoI'm not a Plone expert yet, but I imagine this is doable05:11
sivangyes, through a plugin or some hacks05:11
hornbeckI have not worked with plone yet05:11
enricoI also have (as you could imagine) some funky ideas about indexing, coming from my debtags experience, but I'll save these for later :)05:12
enricoI feel like we should start flooding ubuntu-devel with the material we have and start discussing, however, I wanted to present three "philosophy" items that came up in a discussion with sivang05:13
sivangusing debiandoc would give us the minimalistic looks debian guides have, which I guess would ease debian's use of our works05:14
enricoThey could be a "working method" we can share05:14
aswkamion: I emailed mark at hbd com but very generically.  Irc would probably have been nice to chat about this... Is the developer meeting on the 19th a good place for that? It sounds like GFDL (without invariant sections for 99% of documents is the best way to go.) 05:14
Kamionsivang: you might like to look at the way the installation manual's done; the build system is still hacky but it's basically docbook05:14
enricoOk, I'll post the three points a bit later, let's stay on docbook for a moment05:14
aswAt least for documents I write.05:14
sivangKamion : I'll have a look.05:15
Kamionasw: dunno about the 19th, that might be release-oriented, but feel free to suggest it05:15
aswenrico: one reason I'05:15
Kamionasw: I really recommend against even GFDL without invariant sections if you want to have a hope of contributing anything back to Debian.05:15
enricoAbout docbook, one good thing is that you can delegate the look to later05:15
Kamionasw: the GFDL has a number of problems besides invariant sections.05:15
enricoAltough I'd like to see OpenOffice.org integration with docbook getting a bit more mature05:16
=== mako waves
enrico(but that's because I'm a vim user, and I don't have psgml-mode in vim)05:16
=== enrico waves at mako
makowas sorting out an another urgent work problem05:16
enricowho came in just in time to see my vim frustration wrt docbook and tease me ;)05:16
aswenrico: one reason I've used plain-text is that locking yourself into one format or another seems to always cause problems for me.  (I find that much documentation doesn't get written because it would be too much of a pain to convert it into one format over another.) maybe we should not have a "fixed" standard style? 05:17
sivangenrico : test emacs, it's wonderful in it05:17
enricosivang: I know05:17
aswIf the upstrea documentation uses tex-info use that. If it uses latex use that... 05:17
hornbeckI loves me some nano05:17
hornbeckasw: I don't like the idea of using multiple formats05:18
hornbeckjust me though05:18
sivangasw : using doc book enables you to ouput different formats.05:18
Kamionhornbeck: contributing changes back upstream makes dealing with multiple formats inevitable05:18
enricoasw: of course if you hack on somethign upstream you respect that; however, if we produce something new, docbook can be a good default choice.  HOWEVER,05:18
Kamionhornbeck: same way the distribution development team have to deal with all sorts of stuff05:18
enricoif someone is confident in writing with something else, I'd like to respect that, or we're putting barriers to contrbution.05:19
hornbeckKamion: understood05:19
enricoSo, if someone wants to write something, but knows latex better than docbook, it's not bad to say "go on"05:19
=== sivang would like to see we making sure debian could use our work, however stricting this may be.
enricoIf (s)he's interested in learning docbook later, we can offer to convert it so that (s)he can see how it works05:20
sivangthere's convertors from latex to docbook and vice versa also :)05:20
=== enrico loves OpenOffice.org -> DocBook
makoi would like to see the output from something going latex -> docbook, or either way, before i trusted it05:20
enricoAlso because OOo already saves in something that's soo docbook-ish05:21
enricoBut this is a pet technical quirk of mine05:21
enricosivang: mako's a docbook freak05:21
enricosivang: mako writes DSSSSSL: don't trust him ;)05:21
makoactually, i've been writing almost entirely in restrcutred text recently05:21
=== plovs is back
sivangmako : my man, I didn't realize ... :))05:21
hornbeckI prefer docbook also 05:21
makoi find RST much cleaner, but DB is the thing that looks most like a community standard05:22
enricoCool, we have some non-normative agreement here, then05:22
aswHonestly it seems more important to agree on what "final" formats we want (i.e. PDF, html) and let people use whatever they want.  Maybe somebody already has some nice writing/style guidelines we could adopt so that the -final- products were consistent. 05:22
plovssorry, to drop in, would it be possible to write documentation in the wiki and then parse it to docbook?05:23
sivangplovs : see the backlog05:23
plovsme reading the backlog05:24
aswplovs: that's nice... 05:24
aswplovs: I mean I think it's nice to draft in the wiki first.05:24
enricoasw: guidelines... tricky issue05:25
sivangenrico : we can stick to "standard" approches already evident on open source projects.05:25
enricoasw: I think guidelines are good when they help you in making choices that you don't know much about05:25
makoasw: that's fine but being able to have things in version control and being able to collaborate with people without having to learn a new a format each time is worth something05:25
aswenrico: my point is that we should agree on what we consider "good enough" levels of documentation and then levels that are "ideal". 05:25
enricoBut they risk restricting creativity and participation in one takes them too strictly05:25
makoasw: even if it means that everyone has to learn a new format once :)05:25
enricomako: Version control is very good for bigger projects, yes05:26
aswwould it be possible to export the wiki directly into docbook in a "nice" way?05:26
enricoAnd I've recently discovered *meld*, which is SO COOL!05:26
plovsasw: i looked today there is no moinmoin2docbook converter05:26
enricoasw: it would be kind of limited, since in wikis you do lots of formatting "by hand" anyway05:27
enricoWhile in docbook you don't do formatting at all05:27
sivangwe could have the docbooks compiled to XHTML, and include this server side or something by plone05:27
plovsenrico: put with a good python-parser it is possible, moinmoin-raw is *very* simple05:28
enricoI suggest we leave this discussion to when we see what we're about to produce/producing05:28
sivangenrico : very well.05:28
aswpeople working on GNU Arch found that the wiki helped a great deal with documentation so I think if there was a way to make the wiki more compatible with docbook that would be a very good thing [tm] 05:28
enricoThat is, if it's a book, we may want to print it.  If it's a short thing, we post it in Plone, or in a mailing list or newsletter05:28
enrico(and so on)05:28
=== enrico conceives a wiki in which people write docbook
=== sivang had envisioned the same :)
=== enrico thinks that would be quite a good idea, considering the metadata you can put in docbook
plovsmaybe we should first write documentation...05:29
enricoHowever, that would be a little bit less wiki (in the sense of fast, unless you hook psgml-mode into mozilla)05:30
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enricoBut we're digressing05:30
sivanglet's concentrate on close milestones05:30
aswpersonally I think that documentation is a major unsolved problem is Free Software projects.  So I hope it's not too much of a digression to talk about wiki->docbook...05:30
hornbeckI think I am going to have to reread this whole thing05:30
sivangconept wise first, and see how we carry on the make something for HOary05:31
enricoI'd like to present the three philosophy mantras, and then starting posting summaries on the maling list05:31
=== enrico rolls drums
=== sivang is anxiuos.
enricoMantra #1: "Do things that are technically simple, and socially complex"05:31
enrico(or else, when even socially simple things happen, you'll be busy working at technically complex things)05:32
enrico(and we already have lots of good developers working at the technically complex anyway)05:32
enricoMantra #2: "Cool think!  Let's put it into the TODO-list for the next-to-the-upcoming release!"05:33
enrico(or else, the upcoming release we're working on right now will never happen)05:33
enricoMantra #3: "First, get to do it.  Then, document how to do it.  Then, automate it."05:34
enrico(changing the order produces bad result.  Of course, one can reiterate the process multiple times)05:34
=== sivang thinks that "automate it" is going to be an exciting part.
=== enrico rolls drums
=== enrico suddendly stops and meditates
=== enrico awakes from meditation
enricosivang: I'd translate "automate" with "send a wishlist bug to the developers"05:35
enricoAnd that's how we make feedback from the community to the developers05:35
enricoThen, we're of course free to take away the "documentation" hat and wear the "developers" hat05:36
hornbeckenrico: so part of our job also is to let the developers know when something is to complex05:36
sivanghornbeck : and is a very important one, also.05:36
enricohornbeck: yes. Absolutely.05:36
sivangso not to get all busy by docs that never need be written,05:37
hornbeckenrico: I guess I was blind to that part but now it makes alot of since05:37
enricohornbeck: I think that when documenting you're in an extremely critical watching point to see how things are05:37
sivangactually there a point here :) .05:37
hornbeckI must say that I am somewhat enlightened 05:38
plovsso, what docs sgould be written is there a list somewhere of stuff that needs to be done/05:38
=== enrico cheers at hornbeck's enlightenment
sivangThe point is , if someone want to be fiddeling with inner workings and low lever stuff, that's cool. We won't concentrate on it at first.05:38
hornbeckplovs: I have just been watching the mailing list05:38
enricoplovs: One thing we can do is creating a 'documentation' metapackage on bugzilla05:38
sivangor make the devs improve it altogether.05:39
enricoplovs: then using that as a todo-list, and to post ideas05:39
sivangthis would be our first doc bug ! :)05:39
=== sivang is however uncertain whe this bug would be close :)
enricoThat could be used to collect requests, and reassign them to other documents we're writing or maintaining05:39
enricosivang: when we feel like, of course!05:40
plovsin the wiki is a page about kernel compiling etc, i could write that05:40
hornbeckplovs: http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/KernelHowto05:40
hornbeckplovs its all your05:41
sivangenrico : haha, no I meant - this would serve as on ongoing list of things to do, and their status, so It might as well never close as work would always need doing :)05:41
plovsok, in the documentation should we concentrate on command-line use, apt-get or explain everything through synaptic05:41
enricoBugs that are never closed have a nice usefulness in collecting discussion05:41
enricoWe could collect enough discussion on a never closed topic that it becomes a book on his own05:42
sivangenrico : haha, no I meant - this would serve as on ongoing list of things to do, and their status, so It might as well never close as work would always need doing :)05:42
enrico(and then we publish the book and close the bug ;)05:42
hornbeckplovs I have been trying to do alittle of both05:43
hornbeckso a book deal is what we are really looking for out of this :)05:43
enricomako: how do we get such a virtual package for bugzilla?05:43
makoenrico: ask justdave05:43
enricohornbeck: not afaik05:43
makoenrico: it shouldn't be a problem05:44
sivangI'll talk to justave05:44
enricohornbeck: I was just talking abstract05:44
plovsuntil then we could just use a page in the wiki with a list of topics we want covered05:44
hornbeckenrico: it was a joke05:44
enricoAlthough maybe publishing books from free content could be nice (that is, you get the book, and even the source online, and you can buy a nice color printed copy and generate some revenue)05:44
enricoBut I'll keep that for discussion in the dissemination phase05:45
enricoor even, when material is there, anyone can make a book out of it05:45
plovsthe free-bsd is nice, if i would use it, i would buy such a boo05:45
enricohornbeck: ops! Sorry for keeping it so long on a joke :(05:45
hornbeckSo goals for right now05:46
hornbeckI need to go to work soon and need to know where we are05:46
hornbeckcan we summerize?05:46
aswI could say a few things.05:47
enricoasw: go on05:47
makosomeone should write up a summary and post it to -devel05:47
aswI will: 05:47
makoi will make sure it gets into traffic05:47
enricomako: you'll see our posts on -devel, you'll see them...05:47
=== enrico laughs evilly
aswtalk "upstairs" about doc licensing. (in particular with respect to GFDL...) 05:47
=== sivang sivang joings him..moouahhha
aswI have offered to start a "ubuntu for scientists" section. 05:48
hornbeckasw: start it up05:48
aswI have suggested a wiki->docbook gateway (based on people's pref for doc book.) 05:48
enricoubuntu-devel used a a coordination mailing list, with [doc]  in the subject05:48
aswI'm sorry these are all possibly far away goals...05:48
aswthat's all.05:48
asw(for me)05:48
plovsdo we have some short-term goal, for say three months?05:49
makoin regards to licensing, we don't need to worry so much05:49
enricowe have 3 mantras that enlightened hornbeck05:49
hornbeckyes very much so05:49
enricoOne short term goal could be a short document to get people to install ubuntu and connect with the community05:49
makowe're not debian, and document licenses have an explicit exception in the philosophy document.. this team is probably empowered to deal with them on a case-by-case basis05:49
enricoThat's the shortest-term goal I can figure out05:50
enricoWith sivan we put down some more ideas on this05:50
aswmako: I plan to write a real "dead-trees" book it will be part of my phd thesis and it will include an invariant section regarding why I think freesoftware is important for scientists.  I would like to see ubuntu distribute my book even if debian wont.  But this is a flame war for another day. 05:50
aswI also plan to write documentation debian will distribute. 05:51
=== sivang reverts back to suggesting the artistic license, however offtopic now :)
hornbeck[OT]  is plone something I need to learn?05:51
enricohornbeck: not until you feel you really need to05:51
enricoI think discussion could continue with some proposals on the table05:52
plovswhat docbook layout do we use?05:52
enricoSomeone has suggestions about docbook layouts?05:53
plovswe would need some sort of docbook primer like the fedora-people use (or we can use theirs)05:53
hornbeckI would suggest we use the same layout that is used with gnome docs05:53
hornbeckdon't know what it is called05:53
sivangWe can end this now, and have some material sent -devel , than continue discussion their. let us raise up the [doc]  traffic! :)05:53
hornbecksivang: I agree05:53
plovssivang: would it possible to have a seperate doc-list?05:54
hornbeckplovs: not right now05:54
plovstoo bad...05:54
enricoIf there are no other very short-term things to discuss, my plan would be to start wikifying the documentation proposal and posting to the list an extract of the summaries of my and sivan e-mail brainstorming and the summary of this meeting05:54
hornbeckplovs: all in good time05:54
sivangwe would have to add some more traffic to -devel, until they can't stand us amymore and would have to set up one :)05:54
enricoThat's the main plan05:55
aswplovs: it's not so bad to be forced to read what the developers are up to but also if you just use [doc]  in the subject line it's easy to filter the documentation messages...05:55
hornbeckenrico: I will post a docbook format question to the list05:55
sivangasw : exactly.05:55
sivanganother thing that needs be done,05:56
sivangis the start orginizing all the scattered parts of documentation into one stop shop wiki page,05:56
sivangthat would link to everything else 05:56
hornbecksivang: I am working on this05:56
hornbeckI have notes for different pages, and just need to get them together05:57
sivangI'd sugges to have the /UDP Page as strting home,05:57
hornbeckplanned on working that tonight05:57
hornbecksivang: do we want /UDP to branch off to other start pages05:57
sivangand move all development and sketched to /DocumentationTeam/Development05:57
hornbeckdo we want /Desktop /Command than go to the correct docs05:58
sivanghornbeck : it can, however this should be very inline with the goal you're trying to explain05:58
=== enrico works at wikifying the proposal and posting notes, then
plovsin moinmoin with category you can make easily searchable docs, like CategoryNotYetFinished etc05:58
sivangthat could assist us 05:59
enricoI declare the meeting has finished, thank you everyone for participating, it's been a great groove!05:59
plovsthen make one page in the wiki with a search-string and it will give you a list of pages05:59
enricoThe room will be free for us to stay around05:59
enricoSo don't worry about having to leave :)05:59
plovsenrico: see ya!05:59
aswgood talking with all of you! 06:00
hornbecksivang: There are alot of random docs06:00
enricoI'll be online just here, following the discussion06:00
sivanghornbeck : yes I noticed :)06:00
hornbecksivang: so do we want to put them all on one page or have pages for sorting06:00
sivanghornbeck : as I see it, we need organize those goal wise high level and then diverge as neccesary in referenced pages.06:01
enricoWriting indexes is also a very good form of writing.  I wouldn't mind creating with composing existing text instead than creating with composing words06:01
sivangthe idea is to make the documenation goal oriented06:01
enricoBut don't talk to me about indexing (yet)06:01
enricoThe problem is, I have the technological solution for all indexing and cathegorization needs06:01
enricoI mean, the perfect solution06:02
hornbeckenrico: get to it06:02
enricoSo when I start talking about it, I don't stop06:02
enricoapt-get install debtags-edit; debtags update; debtags-edit06:02
plovshornbeck: a wiki does not need to be hierarchical, just use [[PageList(regex)] ] , to make automatic indexes06:03
enricodebtags is faceted categorization applied to Debian packages.  It seems to be a good approach for sorting 15000+ different packages06:03
hornbeckwhat is this debtags enrico?06:04
enricoBut here, as you see, we're digressing06:04
hornbeckwell the wife needs me for alittle while06:04
hornbeckI will be around today06:04
makobefore people disband06:04
hornbeckthanks for the meeting everyone06:04
sivangfine joh :)06:04
makois someone going to write this up?06:05
sivangc'ya soon!06:05
makowho is writing up the summary and action items?06:05
sivangme and enrico , I guess06:05
enricoYes, I'd say so06:05
makosivang: please, email -devel06:05
hornbeckok, so someone's on it06:05
hornbeckhave fun guys06:05
makoyeah, just want to make sure someone has that one :)06:05
sivangmako : we will , we will .....mouhaaa06:06
=== sivang away "be back in 15 minutes"
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