[03:45] <asw> Hi! Is there a documentation meeting today? (In a few minutes I think...) 
[03:55] <hornbeck> yes you are in the right place asw
[03:56] <hornbeck> I am helping the wife for a few more minutes than I will be in here
[03:57] <asw> Cool...
[04:02] <asw> Is there an agenda or a web-page for this meeting? 
[04:02] <asw> I only saw the notice is ubuntu-users/devel... 
[04:03] <hornbeck> no there is no agenda
[04:04] <hornbeck> we just wanted to get some people together who has some ideas on the docs and which direction we should go with them
[04:04] <hornbeck> but we will give people a few more minutes to get in here
[04:05] <plovs> hi
[04:06] <asw> ok. will transcripts be posted?
[04:07] <asw> (I'm pretty bad at IRC so I'm happy if they are not...) 
[04:07] <plovs> transcripts are good for people who couldn't make it
[04:08] <hornbeck> http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/DocumentationAgenda
[04:08] <hornbeck> there you go
[04:08] <hornbeck> I do believe that there will be transcripts
[04:08] <hornbeck> mako: you really here?
[04:08] <asw> transcripts are good I just hate all the spelling/grammar mistakes that are saved for posterity... =^) 
[04:09] <hornbeck> well noone is perfect
[04:09] <hornbeck> that is what spell check is for
[04:09] <asw> I don't know how to use spell-check with irc. (I use xchat)
[04:09] <hornbeck> I meant outside irc
[04:09] <hornbeck> I use xchat also
[04:10] <hornbeck> there will be mistakes on irc because you are typing fast and trying to keep up with conversations
[04:11] <hornbeck> well I guess others will show up
[04:12] <hornbeck> a couple more about to be here
[04:14] <asw> I have some particular things I'd like to work on but since I'm new I don't know what the etiquette is... 
[04:14] <hornbeck> hold one sec
[04:15] <plovs> will docbook be used for documentation?
[04:15] <hornbeck> hold one sec
[04:15] <hornbeck> other main people are on their way
[04:15] <hornbeck> don't want to get in discussions and have them lost
[04:15] <asw> plovs: are you Poslavsky on the wiki doc-team page?
[04:16] <plovs> yes
[04:16] <hornbeck> ok, there is about the last one I was waiting for
[04:18] <enrico> Hello, and good afternoon.  Sorry for the delay, I understood it was 16.00 UTC instead of CET
[04:18] <sivang> me also :)
[04:19] <hornbeck> There will be a documentation meeting this friday at 1400UTC in
[04:19] <hornbeck> #ubuntu-meeting on the freenode server
[04:19] <hornbeck> :)
[04:19] <sivang> I'd like everybody to introduce himself a bit,
[04:19] <enrico> Since we're all here, we can start.  How about a round of introductions?
[04:20] <sivang> Shall I start?
[04:20] <sivang> :)
[04:20] <hornbeck> I am John Hornbeck, I worked with the Gnome doc team for awhile and have started alot of work with Ubuntu so far
[04:20] <sivang> hornbeck?
[04:20] <hornbeck> I live in Oklahoma
[04:20] <hornbeck> is that good
[04:21] <hornbeck> next?
[04:21] <sivang> I'm Sivan Green, I'm from Israel. I've started the /UDP page on the wiki, with some thoughts about
[04:21] <sivang> the directions of ubuntu's documentation.
[04:22] <enrico> I'm Enrico Zini, Italy.  I've been working on designing a community-based approach to produce documentation
[04:22] <sivang> I'm a long time Linux user, programmer and have had experience with documentation on some corporate company.
[04:22] <Kamion> I'm Colin Watson, Canonical staffer, Ubuntu installer team leader, really just lurking here while doing other stuff, since I've been doing the installation manual work for warty.
[04:22] <sivang> Kamion : nice to see you here :)
[04:22] <asw> I'm AlexanderWait on the wiki -- http://non.fiction.org/~await -- I would like to see free software and ubuntu in particular more widely adopted in scientific applications.  I am working on a new alife project for my phd.  X3D/VRML, GNU Arch, Boinc (seti@home) are some of the technologies. I've used Linux commercially since 1993.  
[04:23] <plovs> I am AlexanderPoslavsky, I'm from the Netherlands,I work as windows admin, but prefer linux :)
[04:23] <hornbeck> hehe, I am a windows admin also
[04:23] <sivang> anybody else?
[04:24] <sivang> mako ?
[04:24] <hornbeck> I guess everyone else is just watching
[04:25] <hornbeck> so six of us than
[04:26] <enrico> Enrico, Sivang, Hornbeck, Asw, Plovs, Kamion
[04:26] <Kamion> (don't consider me part of the doc team please, as I said I'm just lurking really)
[04:26] <hornbeck> ok
[04:26] <enrico> Doc team: Enrico, Sivang, Hornbeck, Asw, Plovs
[04:26] <enrico> Goal: Total world domination
[04:26] <plovs> it's a start...
[04:27] <enrico> I guess we're here to discuss how to get to that
[04:27] <hornbeck> yes
[04:27] <sivang> yes.
[04:27] <hornbeck> would you like us to discuss what we have done so far?
[04:27] <asw> yes please
[04:27] <enrico> hornbeck: sure!
[04:27] <hornbeck> so everyone can be caught up to speed
[04:27] <hornbeck> ok, I will start
[04:28] <sivang> good idea, let's have an overview for what already exists.
[04:28] <hornbeck> I have mainly worked on the wiki trying to get alot of it up to speed
[04:28] <hornbeck> I have also worked on the start page for Warty and also working on the gnome-user-guide to go into warty
[04:29] <hornbeck> I try to stay active on the mailing list so i get more ideas of faqs and other information that needs docs
[04:29] <hornbeck> thats it for me
[04:30] <enrico> asw?
[04:30] <asw> I'm completely new. 
[04:30] <hornbeck> sivang?
[04:31] <asw> Could somebody mention JohnLevin, BenEdwards or KevinWixted (they are on the DocumentationTeam page)
[04:31] <sivang> yes,
[04:31] <sivang> I'd recommend everybody to take a look at the /DocumentationTeam page, see the people who are listed there to get an idea
[04:32] <asw> (Also robertbrimhall)
[04:32] <sivang> please see also /DocumentationArea more wiki work by interested people
[04:33] <sivang> anybody correct me if I slipped away any other piece of index web, for what others have done by now.
[04:34] <hornbeck> looks right to me
[04:34] <enrico> As of myself, I'm less of a documentation person and more I'm more interested in user-centered design and in facilitating community creativity
[04:36] <hornbeck> ok, so we know who we are now
[04:36] <hornbeck> I have a few questions 
[04:37] <hornbeck> enrico: Where would you like us to be as far as docs, for Hoary
[04:37] <hornbeck> that is a large question I know
[04:38] <enrico> That is a large question
[04:38] <hornbeck> ok I will make it smaller
[04:38] <sivang> Let's try and see what we can see for warty, both offline and wiki wise. We might want to concentrate on a modest milestone, and after warty to head up for the big plans for Hoary.
[04:39] <hornbeck> sivang: warty is about out the door
[04:39] <asw> I'm reading http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/HoaryHedgehog_2fReleaseSchedule
[04:39] <hornbeck> we can do keep up docs for it, but the goal as I see it right now is Hoary
[04:40] <hornbeck> enrico: a better start question would be, what areas are we looking at documenting
[04:40] <enrico> sivang: yes.  It's reasonable to start some working together first, then make release-oriented plans
[04:41] <asw> So there is a "seedFreeze" Nov.29 and feature freeze feb.7   when do we stop writing documentation?  I want to understand how much time we have. 
[04:41] <enrico> So, ideally, there should be no documentation at all.  Programs should just work, and do what users want.
[04:41] <hornbeck> asw: we are still working on docs for warty
[04:41] <Kamion> you guys don't have to worry about the seed freeze very much
[04:41] <hornbeck> enrico: yes
[04:42] <enrico> Documentation comes in when programs are not that clear, or when the users don't know what they want
[04:42] <enrico> This highlight two fields of working :)
[04:42] <Kamion> the problem you'll have is that not all the documentation you'll need to write will be clear *until* feature freeze
[04:43] <Kamion> but by shortly after feature freeze you'll probably want to have the guts of most of the docs and then start polishing
[04:43] <hornbeck> so alot of late night before a release
[04:43] <enrico> Kamion: yes.  Which brings us back to the debian categorizatin problem: how can I have a good category database without even knowing what software is in the distr?
[04:43] <enrico> And, in the traditional computer-science style, what we need to do is change the nature of the problem ;)
[04:44] <hornbeck> enrico: that comes back to, what all are we going to document
[04:44] <hornbeck> are we going to have our own docs for everything?
[04:44] <sivang> no.
[04:44] <enrico> hornbeck: docs for everything?  No, please no
[04:44] <enrico> That would be bad, for various things
[04:44] <hornbeck> or are we going to use docs from other places and feel in the spots
[04:44] <enrico>  - disrespect for all the good work that already exists
[04:44] <enrico>  - lots of work to do
[04:44] <hornbeck> enrico: I was just giving a example
[04:45] <hornbeck> not asking to do so
[04:45] <enrico>  - it would disconnect us from the rest fo the community
[04:45] <pitti> Doc should handled similar to packages: keep ubuntu-specific changes, but base on upstream docs
[04:45] <enrico> hornbeck: ah, ok, sorry :)
[04:45] <sivang> pitti : exactly
[04:45] <pitti> AFAICS you can even use the same tools (diff, etc.) for it
[04:45] <hornbeck> yeah
[04:45] <enrico> So, back to my original discourse, one line of working would be see what's unclear in Warty, then check if it's been either fixed in Hoary or if it needs documenting
[04:45] <sivang> yes, and that would enable us to feed debian back, as our ROCK
[04:46] <asw> I am interested in documenting specific subsystems (eg hardware accelerated 3D), GNU Arch for developersm, maybe TeXmacs... in general I'm interested in working on "Ubuntu for Scientists"
[04:46] <enrico> Working based on what the issues are will also allow us to produce documentation which addresses what users are actually trying to do
[04:47] <sivang> Ideally we should probably follow this to start up a bit:
[04:48] <sivang> 1) Identify the goal our users might want to accomplish.
[04:48] <enrico> I see we're having two identities here: from one side we have frenzy in the hands and we want to *write*, and from the other we are into a designing phase for the work
[04:48] <enrico> On these two identities, both are important, and one kills the other
[04:48] <Kamion> you might find it easier to start from reviews of the existing upstream and Debian documentation and work out what needs to be added/contributed/improved
[04:48] <enrico> This is a nice Hegelian dialectic
[04:49] <enrico> Resolving dialectics lead to Genius, and of course Total World Domination
[04:49] <sivang> 2) Investigate current works to see relevancy and suitability.
[04:49] <enrico> 3) Establish channels and formats for dissemination of the documentation
[04:49] <sivang> 3) See how we might carry on them, to produce ubuntu compatible education.
[04:49] <sivang> oh :)
[04:50] <enrico> sivang: sorry for overlapping
[04:50] <sivang> sorry for taking #3
[04:50] <sivang> :-)
[04:50] <enrico> asw: ubuntu for scientists... noted!
[04:50] <asw> I have some very basic questions about licensing too. (And yes I have strong flame-war generating opinions...) 
[04:51] <asw> I have a silly IRC question. was the message "asw: ubuntuy for scientists... notes!" private? sorry for being an idiot.
[04:51] <enrico> Kamion: review, yes, but starting from existing issues
[04:51] <Kamion> asw: no.
[04:51] <hornbeck> enrico: so let me make sure I am understanding
[04:52] <hornbeck> see what existing issues there are right now.  Start with docs that will address those issues
[04:52] <enrico> asw: no, I sent it into the channel: I just wanted to acknowledge your interest
[04:52] <hornbeck> correct?
[04:52] <asw> enrico, kamion: thanks but why is it highlighted on my xchat screen.  
[04:53] <hornbeck> asw: cause it has your name on it
[04:53] <enrico> hornbeck: or, given the issues, see what documentation is around and see if we need to produce something new, point to something existing, produce a short doc that points to something existing "for knowing more"
[04:53] <hornbeck> enrico: Ok I understand
[04:54] <enrico> Do we have a mailing list to post things for review and have discussions?
[04:54] <hornbeck> not yet
[04:54] <asw> is it possible for somebody like me to work on a section of docs like "ubuntu for scientists" while keeping up with/staying out of the way of whatever the rest of you are doing? 
[04:54] <enrico> I don't mind using existing mailing lists for production, but it may be useful to have one for coordination
[04:54] <sivang> enrico : why don't we publish on the wiki somewhere also?
[04:54] <Kamion> enrico: use ubuntu-devel@ and put [doc]  in the subject line, please
[04:55] <hornbeck> enrico: please say something to mdz about our own list
[04:55] <enrico> Kamion: if we fit there, ok
[04:55] <Kamion> mdz already expressed an opinion on this
[04:55] <Kamion> which was "use ubuntu-devel@ and put [doc]  in the subject line, please" :-)
[04:55] <asw> actually I could see why coordinating with devel is a really good idea.
[04:55] <asw> maybe it's not so bad if we are exposed to their traffic? 
[04:55] <enrico> Kamion: ok
[04:56] <Kamion> the problem with a separate list in the beginning is that it means the doc team is likely to get disconnected too much from development activity
[04:56] <hornbeck> Kamion: I see the point in that
[04:57] <asw> enrico: can you put your idea on a wiki page or maybe on today's meeting page?
[04:57] <enrico> Kamion: won't people bother if we'll start dumping on -devel our delirious world domination plans?
[04:57] <enrico> asw: it'll take a while for me to do the wiki formatting, though
[04:57] <hornbeck> enrico: they said if we start over crowding than we can have our own
[04:58] <Kamion> enrico: well, you shouldn't be getting too delirious anyway :)
[04:58] <enrico> Kamion: (this is just to get a "don't worry" from you, so that we can dodge compalints)
[04:58] <enrico> Kamion: Damn!  No "don't worry"! :)
[04:58] <hornbeck> enrico: put it all in a mail, and I can put on the wiki today
[04:58] <Kamion> enrico: we'd like to know what you're doing; in general you should be keeping discussion fairly tightly on-topic
[04:59] <sivang> Kamion : does this also applies to before release tight times? :)
[04:59] <hornbeck> Kamion: you guys just want to watch over us huh?
[04:59] <enrico> After the meeting I'll work on publishing my plan (with hornbeck maybe) and on summarizing recent discussion with sivang
[04:59] <Kamion> hornbeck: well, new teams starting up often need some supervision in most organisations
[05:00] <Kamion> sivang: yes, we can cope with a bit more mail; just don't wibble :)
[05:00] <hornbeck> Kamion: right, you guys like to watch
[05:00] <Kamion> hornbeck: we'll split it out if it becomes an issue
[05:01] <enrico> Casually, we have pictures of ubuntu people naked in the pool already :)
[05:01] <hornbeck> haha
[05:01] <sivang> hahahaha
[05:01] <enrico> However, back to the plans, we have:
[05:01] <hornbeck> yes
[05:01] <enrico>  1) Some draft long-term plans
[05:02] <enrico>  2) Some titles for ubuntu-specific guides (coming from the UDP wiki page mostly, I image from sivang and hornbeck)
[05:03] <hornbeck> enrico: I think we should shoot for this http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/index.xml
[05:03] <hornbeck> enrico: they have docs for just about all issues I ever ran into for gentoo
[05:04] <enrico> Then, we'll have docs to make you run in even more issues!! ;)
[05:04] <enrico> Well, the idea is that you should never run into an issue with Ubuntu, and we focus on showing how to do creative things
[05:05] <enrico> I wouldn't mind finally taking Linux out of the troubleshooting and customization and finally into the "how to remove the red eyes to your digital camera pictures"
[05:05] <Kamion> (enrico raises a good point; please don't document workarounds for problems that you should be telling us to fix instead)
[05:05] <hornbeck> that would be nice
[05:05] <sivang> making the illusion we have squashed all other issues, so you wind up asking, what can I do with Ubuntu today? :)
[05:06] <hornbeck> enrico, Kamion: good ideas but we are not there yet
[05:06] <asw> So what about licensing (GFDL?) and style guidelines?  Somebody mentioned docbook?
[05:06] <enrico> asw: good question
[05:06] <sivang> Yes, I have :)
[05:06] <hornbeck> docbook is nice
[05:07] <enrico> Kamion: are there policies about licenses for documentation?
[05:07] <sivang> GFDL would be great.
[05:07] <enrico> Kamion: GFDL but without invariant sessions?
[05:07] <enrico> s/session/section/
[05:07] <asw> I've recently inherited the "REC.GAMES.COREWAR" faq and I will need to use something for that.  It's plaintext/html at the moment... 
[05:07] <enrico> Kamion: GPL altogehter?
[05:08] <enrico> That is, we should distribute the source form, including, for example, spreadsheets we used to generate the graphics and so on)
[05:08] <asw> Frankly I have watched the folks at MIT debate over invariant sections and if ubuntu is about freedom then political speech aka invariant sections should be permitted.  It's just complicated and maybe out of scope for this meeting... 
[05:08] <asw> I think Debian has made the wrong decision with respect to invariant sections. 
[05:08] <enrico> I'd honestly ask upstairs (sabdfl or something like that) for that
[05:08] <asw> It's one of the reasons I'm interested in ubuntu. 
[05:09] <Kamion> we don't have a hard objection to the GFDL, but since we would like to send improvements back to Debian I'd strongly recommend that you avoid the GFDL and invariant sections in documentation you write.
[05:09] <Kamion> it'll just create unnecessary barriers
[05:09] <asw> kamion: this is practical... 
[05:09] <hornbeck> I think GPL would be nice
[05:09] <Kamion> (I'm not authoritative on this, BTW, just an opinion)
[05:09] <sivang> or there's even the artistic license, if we really want to get nasty :)
[05:10] <enrico> Whatever the license (we can delegate decisions on that, Italian style ;) , let's talk about formats
[05:10] <hornbeck> should someone hop to ubuntu-devel and ask
[05:10] <Kamion> the artistic licence is ... not ideal. clarified artistic isn't too bad.
[05:10] <enrico> From one side, we are probably creating some books, so docbook qualifies
[05:10] <sivang> I think docbook is preferable, and we should use debian DTD.
[05:10] <asw> enrico: sabdfl?
[05:10] <sivang> Kamion : agreed
[05:10] <enrico> From the other side, we are probably writing items into Plone
[05:11] <Kamion> asw: sabdfl is Mark Shuttleworth's IRC nick
[05:11] <thom> i think most debian developers would recommend avoiding the gfdl as it stands
[05:11] <enrico> It would be interesting making something to drag Plone items into Docbook, should we aggregate things from Plone into a book
[05:11] <enrico> And the other way round to post the aggregation into Plone
[05:11] <enrico> I'm not a Plone expert yet, but I imagine this is doable
[05:11] <sivang> yes, through a plugin or some hacks
[05:11] <hornbeck> I have not worked with plone yet
[05:12] <enrico> I also have (as you could imagine) some funky ideas about indexing, coming from my debtags experience, but I'll save these for later :)
[05:13] <enrico> I feel like we should start flooding ubuntu-devel with the material we have and start discussing, however, I wanted to present three "philosophy" items that came up in a discussion with sivang
[05:14] <sivang> using debiandoc would give us the minimalistic looks debian guides have, which I guess would ease debian's use of our works
[05:14] <enrico> They could be a "working method" we can share
[05:14] <asw> kamion: I emailed mark at hbd com but very generically.  Irc would probably have been nice to chat about this... Is the developer meeting on the 19th a good place for that? It sounds like GFDL (without invariant sections for 99% of documents is the best way to go.) 
[05:14] <Kamion> sivang: you might like to look at the way the installation manual's done; the build system is still hacky but it's basically docbook
[05:14] <enrico> Ok, I'll post the three points a bit later, let's stay on docbook for a moment
[05:14] <asw> At least for documents I write.
[05:15] <sivang> Kamion : I'll have a look.
[05:15] <Kamion> asw: dunno about the 19th, that might be release-oriented, but feel free to suggest it
[05:15] <asw> enrico: one reason I'
[05:15] <Kamion> asw: I really recommend against even GFDL without invariant sections if you want to have a hope of contributing anything back to Debian.
[05:15] <enrico> About docbook, one good thing is that you can delegate the look to later
[05:15] <Kamion> asw: the GFDL has a number of problems besides invariant sections.
[05:16] <enrico> Altough I'd like to see OpenOffice.org integration with docbook getting a bit more mature
[05:16] <enrico> (but that's because I'm a vim user, and I don't have psgml-mode in vim)
[05:16] <mako> was sorting out an another urgent work problem
[05:16] <enrico> who came in just in time to see my vim frustration wrt docbook and tease me ;)
[05:17] <asw> enrico: one reason I've used plain-text is that locking yourself into one format or another seems to always cause problems for me.  (I find that much documentation doesn't get written because it would be too much of a pain to convert it into one format over another.) maybe we should not have a "fixed" standard style? 
[05:17] <sivang> enrico : test emacs, it's wonderful in it
[05:17] <enrico> sivang: I know
[05:17] <asw> If the upstrea documentation uses tex-info use that. If it uses latex use that... 
[05:17] <hornbeck> I loves me some nano
[05:18] <hornbeck> asw: I don't like the idea of using multiple formats
[05:18] <hornbeck> just me though
[05:18] <sivang> asw : using doc book enables you to ouput different formats.
[05:18] <Kamion> hornbeck: contributing changes back upstream makes dealing with multiple formats inevitable
[05:18] <enrico> asw: of course if you hack on somethign upstream you respect that; however, if we produce something new, docbook can be a good default choice.  HOWEVER,
[05:18] <Kamion> hornbeck: same way the distribution development team have to deal with all sorts of stuff
[05:19] <enrico> if someone is confident in writing with something else, I'd like to respect that, or we're putting barriers to contrbution.
[05:19] <hornbeck> Kamion: understood
[05:19] <enrico> So, if someone wants to write something, but knows latex better than docbook, it's not bad to say "go on"
[05:19] <hornbeck> ok
[05:20] <enrico> If (s)he's interested in learning docbook later, we can offer to convert it so that (s)he can see how it works
[05:20] <sivang> there's convertors from latex to docbook and vice versa also :)
[05:20] <mako> i would like to see the output from something going latex -> docbook, or either way, before i trusted it
[05:21] <enrico> Also because OOo already saves in something that's soo docbook-ish
[05:21] <enrico> But this is a pet technical quirk of mine
[05:21] <enrico> sivang: mako's a docbook freak
[05:21] <enrico> sivang: mako writes DSSSSSL: don't trust him ;)
[05:21] <mako> actually, i've been writing almost entirely in restrcutred text recently
[05:21] <sivang> mako : my man, I didn't realize ... :))
[05:21] <hornbeck> I prefer docbook also 
[05:22] <mako> i find RST much cleaner, but DB is the thing that looks most like a community standard
[05:22] <enrico> Cool, we have some non-normative agreement here, then
[05:22] <asw> Honestly it seems more important to agree on what "final" formats we want (i.e. PDF, html) and let people use whatever they want.  Maybe somebody already has some nice writing/style guidelines we could adopt so that the -final- products were consistent. 
[05:23] <plovs> sorry, to drop in, would it be possible to write documentation in the wiki and then parse it to docbook?
[05:23] <sivang> plovs : see the backlog
[05:24] <plovs> me reading the backlog
[05:24] <asw> plovs: that's nice... 
[05:24] <asw> plovs: I mean I think it's nice to draft in the wiki first.
[05:25] <enrico> asw: guidelines... tricky issue
[05:25] <sivang> enrico : we can stick to "standard" approches already evident on open source projects.
[05:25] <enrico> asw: I think guidelines are good when they help you in making choices that you don't know much about
[05:25] <mako> asw: that's fine but being able to have things in version control and being able to collaborate with people without having to learn a new a format each time is worth something
[05:25] <asw> enrico: my point is that we should agree on what we consider "good enough" levels of documentation and then levels that are "ideal". 
[05:25] <enrico> But they risk restricting creativity and participation in one takes them too strictly
[05:25] <mako> asw: even if it means that everyone has to learn a new format once :)
[05:26] <enrico> mako: Version control is very good for bigger projects, yes
[05:26] <asw> would it be possible to export the wiki directly into docbook in a "nice" way?
[05:26] <enrico> And I've recently discovered *meld*, which is SO COOL!
[05:26] <plovs> asw: i looked today there is no moinmoin2docbook converter
[05:27] <enrico> asw: it would be kind of limited, since in wikis you do lots of formatting "by hand" anyway
[05:27] <enrico> While in docbook you don't do formatting at all
[05:27] <sivang> we could have the docbooks compiled to XHTML, and include this server side or something by plone
[05:28] <plovs> enrico: put with a good python-parser it is possible, moinmoin-raw is *very* simple
[05:28] <enrico> I suggest we leave this discussion to when we see what we're about to produce/producing
[05:28] <sivang> enrico : very well.
[05:28] <asw> people working on GNU Arch found that the wiki helped a great deal with documentation so I think if there was a way to make the wiki more compatible with docbook that would be a very good thing [tm] 
[05:28] <enrico> That is, if it's a book, we may want to print it.  If it's a short thing, we post it in Plone, or in a mailing list or newsletter
[05:28] <enrico> (and so on)
[05:29] <plovs> maybe we should first write documentation...
[05:30] <enrico> However, that would be a little bit less wiki (in the sense of fast, unless you hook psgml-mode into mozilla)
[05:30] <enrico> But we're digressing
[05:30] <sivang> let's concentrate on close milestones
[05:30] <asw> personally I think that documentation is a major unsolved problem is Free Software projects.  So I hope it's not too much of a digression to talk about wiki->docbook...
[05:30] <hornbeck> I think I am going to have to reread this whole thing
[05:31] <sivang> conept wise first, and see how we carry on the make something for HOary
[05:31] <enrico> I'd like to present the three philosophy mantras, and then starting posting summaries on the maling list
[05:31] <enrico> Mantra #1: "Do things that are technically simple, and socially complex"
[05:32] <enrico> (or else, when even socially simple things happen, you'll be busy working at technically complex things)
[05:32] <enrico> (and we already have lots of good developers working at the technically complex anyway)
[05:33] <enrico> Mantra #2: "Cool think!  Let's put it into the TODO-list for the next-to-the-upcoming release!"
[05:33] <enrico> (or else, the upcoming release we're working on right now will never happen)
[05:34] <enrico> Mantra #3: "First, get to do it.  Then, document how to do it.  Then, automate it."
[05:34] <enrico> (changing the order produces bad result.  Of course, one can reiterate the process multiple times)
[05:35] <enrico> sivang: I'd translate "automate" with "send a wishlist bug to the developers"
[05:35] <enrico> And that's how we make feedback from the community to the developers
[05:35] <sivang> ok
[05:36] <enrico> Then, we're of course free to take away the "documentation" hat and wear the "developers" hat
[05:36] <hornbeck> enrico: so part of our job also is to let the developers know when something is to complex
[05:36] <sivang> hornbeck : and is a very important one, also.
[05:36] <enrico> hornbeck: yes. Absolutely.
[05:37] <sivang> so not to get all busy by docs that never need be written,
[05:37] <hornbeck> enrico: I guess I was blind to that part but now it makes alot of since
[05:37] <enrico> hornbeck: I think that when documenting you're in an extremely critical watching point to see how things are
[05:37] <sivang> actually there a point here :) .
[05:38] <hornbeck> I must say that I am somewhat enlightened 
[05:38] <plovs> so, what docs sgould be written is there a list somewhere of stuff that needs to be done/
[05:38] <sivang> The point is , if someone want to be fiddeling with inner workings and low lever stuff, that's cool. We won't concentrate on it at first.
[05:38] <hornbeck> plovs: I have just been watching the mailing list
[05:38] <enrico> plovs: One thing we can do is creating a 'documentation' metapackage on bugzilla
[05:39] <sivang> or make the devs improve it altogether.
[05:39] <enrico> plovs: then using that as a todo-list, and to post ideas
[05:39] <sivang> this would be our first doc bug ! :)
[05:39] <enrico> That could be used to collect requests, and reassign them to other documents we're writing or maintaining
[05:40] <enrico> sivang: when we feel like, of course!
[05:40] <plovs> in the wiki is a page about kernel compiling etc, i could write that
[05:40] <hornbeck> plovs: http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/KernelHowto
[05:41] <hornbeck> plovs its all your
[05:41] <sivang> enrico : haha, no I meant - this would serve as on ongoing list of things to do, and their status, so It might as well never close as work would always need doing :)
[05:41] <plovs> ok, in the documentation should we concentrate on command-line use, apt-get or explain everything through synaptic
[05:41] <enrico> Bugs that are never closed have a nice usefulness in collecting discussion
[05:42] <enrico> We could collect enough discussion on a never closed topic that it becomes a book on his own
[05:42] <sivang> enrico : haha, no I meant - this would serve as on ongoing list of things to do, and their status, so It might as well never close as work would always need doing :)
[05:42] <enrico> (and then we publish the book and close the bug ;)
[05:42] <sivang> yes!
[05:42] <mako> heh
[05:43] <hornbeck> plovs I have been trying to do alittle of both
[05:43] <hornbeck> so a book deal is what we are really looking for out of this :)
[05:43] <enrico> mako: how do we get such a virtual package for bugzilla?
[05:43] <mako> enrico: ask justdave
[05:43] <enrico> hornbeck: not afaik
[05:44] <mako> enrico: it shouldn't be a problem
[05:44] <sivang> I'll talk to justave
[05:44] <enrico> hornbeck: I was just talking abstract
[05:44] <plovs> until then we could just use a page in the wiki with a list of topics we want covered
[05:44] <hornbeck> enrico: it was a joke
[05:44] <enrico> Although maybe publishing books from free content could be nice (that is, you get the book, and even the source online, and you can buy a nice color printed copy and generate some revenue)
[05:45] <enrico> But I'll keep that for discussion in the dissemination phase
[05:45] <enrico> or even, when material is there, anyone can make a book out of it
[05:45] <plovs> the free-bsd is nice, if i would use it, i would buy such a boo
[05:45] <enrico> hornbeck: ops! Sorry for keeping it so long on a joke :(
[05:45] <hornbeck> :)
[05:46] <hornbeck> So goals for right now
[05:46] <hornbeck> I need to go to work soon and need to know where we are
[05:46] <hornbeck> can we summerize?
[05:47] <asw> I could say a few things.
[05:47] <enrico> asw: go on
[05:47] <mako> someone should write up a summary and post it to -devel
[05:47] <asw> I will: 
[05:47] <mako> i will make sure it gets into traffic
[05:47] <enrico> mako: you'll see our posts on -devel, you'll see them...
[05:47] <asw> talk "upstairs" about doc licensing. (in particular with respect to GFDL...) 
[05:48] <asw> I have offered to start a "ubuntu for scientists" section. 
[05:48] <hornbeck> asw: start it up
[05:48] <asw> I have suggested a wiki->docbook gateway (based on people's pref for doc book.) 
[05:48] <enrico> ubuntu-devel used a a coordination mailing list, with [doc]  in the subject
[05:48] <asw> I'm sorry these are all possibly far away goals...
[05:48] <asw> that's all.
[05:48] <asw> (for me)
[05:49] <plovs> do we have some short-term goal, for say three months?
[05:49] <mako> in regards to licensing, we don't need to worry so much
[05:49] <enrico> we have 3 mantras that enlightened hornbeck
[05:49] <hornbeck> yes very much so
[05:49] <enrico> One short term goal could be a short document to get people to install ubuntu and connect with the community
[05:49] <mako> we're not debian, and document licenses have an explicit exception in the philosophy document.. this team is probably empowered to deal with them on a case-by-case basis
[05:50] <enrico> That's the shortest-term goal I can figure out
[05:50] <enrico> With sivan we put down some more ideas on this
[05:50] <asw> mako: I plan to write a real "dead-trees" book it will be part of my phd thesis and it will include an invariant section regarding why I think freesoftware is important for scientists.  I would like to see ubuntu distribute my book even if debian wont.  But this is a flame war for another day. 
[05:51] <asw> I also plan to write documentation debian will distribute. 
[05:51] <hornbeck> [OT]  is plone something I need to learn?
[05:51] <enrico> hornbeck: not until you feel you really need to
[05:52] <hornbeck> ok
[05:52] <enrico> I think discussion could continue with some proposals on the table
[05:52] <plovs> what docbook layout do we use?
[05:53] <enrico> Someone has suggestions about docbook layouts?
[05:53] <plovs> we would need some sort of docbook primer like the fedora-people use (or we can use theirs)
[05:53] <hornbeck> I would suggest we use the same layout that is used with gnome docs
[05:53] <hornbeck> don't know what it is called
[05:53] <sivang> We can end this now, and have some material sent -devel , than continue discussion their. let us raise up the [doc]  traffic! :)
[05:53] <hornbeck> sivang: I agree
[05:54] <plovs> sivang: would it possible to have a seperate doc-list?
[05:54] <hornbeck> plovs: not right now
[05:54] <plovs> too bad...
[05:54] <enrico> If there are no other very short-term things to discuss, my plan would be to start wikifying the documentation proposal and posting to the list an extract of the summaries of my and sivan e-mail brainstorming and the summary of this meeting
[05:54] <hornbeck> plovs: all in good time
[05:54] <sivang> we would have to add some more traffic to -devel, until they can't stand us amymore and would have to set up one :)
[05:55] <enrico> That's the main plan
[05:55] <asw> plovs: it's not so bad to be forced to read what the developers are up to but also if you just use [doc]  in the subject line it's easy to filter the documentation messages...
[05:55] <hornbeck> enrico: I will post a docbook format question to the list
[05:55] <sivang> asw : exactly.
[05:56] <sivang> another thing that needs be done,
[05:56] <sivang> is the start orginizing all the scattered parts of documentation into one stop shop wiki page,
[05:56] <sivang> that would link to everything else 
[05:56] <hornbeck> sivang: I am working on this
[05:57] <hornbeck> I have notes for different pages, and just need to get them together
[05:57] <sivang> I'd sugges to have the /UDP Page as strting home,
[05:57] <hornbeck> planned on working that tonight
[05:57] <hornbeck> ok
[05:57] <hornbeck> sivang: do we want /UDP to branch off to other start pages
[05:57] <sivang> and move all development and sketched to /DocumentationTeam/Development
[05:58] <hornbeck> do we want /Desktop /Command than go to the correct docs
[05:58] <sivang> hornbeck : it can, however this should be very inline with the goal you're trying to explain
[05:58] <plovs> in moinmoin with category you can make easily searchable docs, like CategoryNotYetFinished etc
[05:59] <sivang> yes
[05:59] <sivang> that could assist us 
[05:59] <enrico> I declare the meeting has finished, thank you everyone for participating, it's been a great groove!
[05:59] <plovs> then make one page in the wiki with a search-string and it will give you a list of pages
[05:59] <enrico> The room will be free for us to stay around
[05:59] <hornbeck> ok
[05:59] <enrico> So don't worry about having to leave :)
[05:59] <plovs> enrico: see ya!
[06:00] <asw> good talking with all of you! 
[06:00] <hornbeck> sivang: There are alot of random docs
[06:00] <enrico> I'll be online just here, following the discussion
[06:00] <sivang> hornbeck : yes I noticed :)
[06:00] <hornbeck> sivang: so do we want to put them all on one page or have pages for sorting
[06:01] <sivang> hornbeck : as I see it, we need organize those goal wise high level and then diverge as neccesary in referenced pages.
[06:01] <enrico> Writing indexes is also a very good form of writing.  I wouldn't mind creating with composing existing text instead than creating with composing words
[06:01] <sivang> the idea is to make the documenation goal oriented
[06:01] <enrico> But don't talk to me about indexing (yet)
[06:01] <enrico> The problem is, I have the technological solution for all indexing and cathegorization needs
[06:02] <enrico> I mean, the perfect solution
[06:02] <hornbeck> enrico: get to it
[06:02] <hornbeck> :)
[06:02] <enrico> So when I start talking about it, I don't stop
[06:02] <enrico> apt-get install debtags-edit; debtags update; debtags-edit
[06:03] <plovs> hornbeck: a wiki does not need to be hierarchical, just use [[PageList(regex)] ] , to make automatic indexes
[06:03] <hornbeck> ok
[06:03] <enrico> debtags is faceted categorization applied to Debian packages.  It seems to be a good approach for sorting 15000+ different packages
[06:04] <hornbeck> what is this debtags enrico?
[06:04] <enrico> But here, as you see, we're digressing
[06:04] <hornbeck> well the wife needs me for alittle while
[06:04] <hornbeck> I will be around today
[06:04] <mako> before people disband
[06:04] <hornbeck> thanks for the meeting everyone
[06:04] <hornbeck> ok
[06:04] <sivang> fine joh :)
[06:05] <mako> is someone going to write this up?
[06:05] <sivang> c'ya soon!
[06:05] <mako> who is writing up the summary and action items?
[06:05] <hornbeck> enrico?
[06:05] <sivang> me and enrico , I guess
[06:05] <enrico> Yes, I'd say so
[06:05] <mako> sivang: please, email -devel
[06:05] <hornbeck> ok, so someone's on it
[06:05] <hornbeck> have fun guys
[06:05] <mako> yeah, just want to make sure someone has that one :)
[06:06] <sivang> mako : we will , we will .....mouhaaa
[06:06] <sivang> :)))