[12:21] <Kamion> sivang: I didn't expect to be quoted on that, I thought you were throwing out the artistic licence as a random idea and said on general principles that the clarified artistic is better
[12:21] <Kamion> sivang: my personal view is that the GPL's an excellent licence for documentation
[12:29] <asw> kamion: I agree with that. But there are circumstances where I think an invariant section is apropriate and in that case the GFDL is the only choice.  This leads to case-by-case decisions which I think is only fair. 
[12:30] <asw> (I agree that a copyleft license like the GPL is an excellent choice for documentation.) 
[12:30] <asw> I could even go further and say I think GPL should be the preferred choice. 
[12:32] <asw> (but this is a community decision... I'm just casting an opinion.) 
[12:32] <Kamion> so far I've just seen the GFDL's invariant sections abused far too much to be happy with them, really
[12:33] <Kamion> most of the uses I've seen of them are actually not permitted under the terms of the GFDL, which leads me to believe that that provision is a shotgun loaded with rather too explosive bullets
[12:34] <Kamion> I've seen documents full of technical content that was almost entirely designated as invariant
[12:34] <Kamion> (which the GFDL explicitly disallows, but it makes documents an enormous amount of work to categorise)
[12:34] <asw> kamion. it's impossible to permit (invariant) political speech without involving human judgement that it really is -- political speech -- 
[12:35] <Kamion> I'd rather not have a licence with the GNU stamp on it permitting it at all
[12:35] <Kamion> invariance, that is
[12:35] <asw> but the point is that nothing deserves protection more than political speech.  If RMS can't include the GNU Manifesto in an emacs manual that just isn't freedom in any important sense. 
[12:35] <Kamion> I think political speech should be freely quotable and modifiable provided that you don't remove credit from it
[12:36] <Kamion> that is, after all, what real politicians do.
[12:36] <Kamion> RMS can include the GNU manifesto if he's willing to allow people to quote from it and modify it as long as they make it clear that they've made changes
[12:37] <Kamion> the fact that he's unwilling to do this is his own problem, not a matter for freedom
[12:37] <Kamion> and people should be allowed to remove the manifesto from the thing they're distributing if they don't like it
[12:40] <Kamion> however, that doesn't fit RMS' political goals
[12:40] <Kamion> which is all well and good, but "what RMS likes" isn't necessarily the same as free
[12:40] <Kamion> anyway, I'm ranting, time to do other things :)
[12:40] <asw> Kamion would you be willing to have the GNU Emacs manual in Ubuntu if it includes the GNU Manifesto as an invariant section?  Would Ubuntu still be a project you could be proud of in that case?
[12:40] <Kamion> what goes into Ubuntu is not entirely my decision :)
[12:40] <Kamion> I'm not willing to speak for Ubuntu on this.
[12:40] <asw> yes- but the goal in this community is consensus. 
[12:41] <jdub> asw: hrm, let's not use arguments like that to make points - it is not productive
[12:43] <Kamion> There are many things that I think should or should not happen; only a few of them get to significantly affect my pride in the project as a whole, whether the community as a whole agrees with me or not.
[12:43] <Kamion> or, in other words, what jdub said :)
[12:44] <asw> I can only speak for myself but I would personally be happier if manuals with invariant sections were included on a case by case basis.  If that's the ubuntu policy then I'm happy.  
[12:44] <asw> Having said that I agree that it creates more work and should not be the default of any documentation we make. I already said I agree with kamion that the GPL is a fine license for that. 
[12:44] <asw> jdub? 
[12:45] <amu> I must note that, "in other words, what jdub said", sound cool
[12:45] <asw> amu?
[12:47] <Kamion> asw: the Ubuntu licensing policy is here: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/licensing - and it does say that we'll evaluate documentation on a case-by-case basis, so I think you're OK there.
[12:47] <Kamion> hence why I'm trying to separate out my personal opinions, and maybe not doing a very good job of it :)
[12:47] <amu> asw: thats something for my fortunes
[12:48] <asw> kamion: thanks for the link.  I suppose the point is that in practice that will mean reaching consensus on accepting/rejecting documents.  Sicne I think everybody agrees that an algorithm wont do it for us -- actual humans will have to make that decision.  Is there going to be a vote? I know who the ultimate decision maker will be but the point is that it should never have to reach that level...  [wikipedia has this problem with enforcin
[12:48] <asw> g neutral point of view.]  
[12:49] <asw> There is no point of having a "case-by-case" policy if everybody knows in practice the community will reject every case an invariant section is included in a document. 
[12:51] <sivang> Kaimon : what would you say would be a good license to aid debian in using our works?
[12:55] <asw> I thought GPL was already proposed. 
[12:55] <Kamion> that's my feeling, yes
[12:55] <Kamion> but any simple GPL-style or BSD-style licence will get wide acceptance
[12:57] <asw> sivang would you be satisfied with GPL as default? 
[12:58] <asw> kaimon: believe it or not I had this exact conversation with the maintainer of the REC.GAMES.COREWAR FAQ over email.  I have offered to take over maintenance and re-license (from proprietary) to use GPL but he wants to use GFDL.  I hope to change his mind.  (I was only arguing for GFDL on case-by-case.)  
[01:00] <asw> [sigh]  maybe this is enough on licensing for one day... 
[01:00] <Kamion> I had a rather extensive debate with the LDP guys a while back over licensing; kinda burned myself out on doc licensing back then :)
[01:00] <Kamion> (having an entire story on slashdot dedicated to flaming you personally tends to burn you out on things)
[01:01] <asw> [laughing]  I'm curious I want to go find the story now.  Where do I look? =^) 
[01:02] <Kamion> hm, it was back in 2001 or something
[01:03] <Kamion> December 2001
[01:03] <Kamion> a friend of mine's response to it was:
[01:03] <Kamion> "So, do you feel like a fascist? I shall expect to see a red flag flying
[01:03] <Kamion> outside your house next time I drop by, assuming you're not out shooting
[01:03] <Kamion> some Jews or something.
[01:03] <Kamion> "
[01:03] <Kamion> :-)
[01:03] <asw> I will look it up when I ahve a chance. [laughing some more]  
[01:04] <asw> Kamion: are you the person to ask about 3D graphics support in upcoming releases. 
[01:04] <Kamion> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/06/133251.shtml
[01:04] <asw> I've offered to work on "ubuntu for scientists" but a more narrow (and doable) project is documenting X3D/VRML on Ubuntu.
[01:04] <Kamion> asw: no, fabbione/daniels might be better candidates
[01:05] <asw> unfortunately the reference implementation of X3D relies on Java...
[01:06] <Kamion> eek
[01:06] <asw> is there a Java policy yet?  anyone working on it? (I haven't even tried to get the java X3D viewer to work on my debian box but I might just do it on a clean ubuntu install.) 
[01:07] <asw> eek?
[01:08] <asw> (believe it or not I haven't used windows for five+ years so I haven't got the java X3d viewer working anywhere.) 
[01:09] <Kamion> I don't recall exactly where we landed, but getting X3D in will be a much easier sell if it works with one of the free JVMs
[01:10] <asw> x3d works without java
[01:10] <Kamion> the ref impl, I mean
[01:10] <Kamion> give it a try with jikes and kaffe
[01:11] <asw> frankly I have little use for java when I can help it. It's just that 3d graphics is not what I want to spend my time doing and so using a standard like X3d seems the way to go (since I have a highly 3d application.)   
[01:11] <asw> I just wanted to know if there was a person thinking about "java" on ubuntu yet.
[01:14] <asw> there is a very nice c++ toolkit http://artis.imag.fr/Software/X3D/ looking for a debian/ubuntu maintener.  It compiles out of the box on debian (sid) so it really shouldn't be much work to get it into an upcoming release. 
[01:14] <sabdfl> asw: you're welcome to put a package together for universe
[01:15] <asw> frankly. I'm still a newbie when it comes to maintaining packages. but I will if I can't find anybody else.  I'm just trying to get a feel for who is doing what. and how things are done around here. \
[01:18] <Kamion> generally the core team hasn't been putting any effort into anything that's not part of Ubuntu proper, short of occasionally poking it to make it build
[01:19] <asw> kamion & sabdfl: I will also aproach the x3d guys and see if they will help with supporting a free jvm.  
[01:19] <Kamion> personally if I wanted to get a package into universe I think I'd get it into Debian and watch it automatically propagate into Ubuntu :)
[01:19] <sabdfl> or Ubuntu improper for that matter. *cough*
[01:19] <Kamion> sabdfl: :-)
[01:19] <sabdfl> Kamion: we'll have a faster process for universe, i think
[01:20] <sabdfl> need to figure out what that process is, exactly, but since we don't provide support for those packages our threshold can be fairly low
[01:20] <Kamion> just feels easier to work with the community that way in the case of new packages
[01:20] <Kamion> but I expect some people to disagree with me :)
[01:20] <asw> kamion: yeah, that was my plan. (I'll try and get the Inria X3D toolkit into Debian -- I already have the blessing of the upstream maintainer and as I said he already has it compile out of the box.) 
[01:22] <jdub> Kamion: totally agree, btw. having packages in our tree that are not in debian seems unwise (other than obviously ubuntu-specific things, like u-a)
[01:23] <asw> this is a stupid question but what's a "core package" and how does it get there?  Is it like "main" in debian? or no? 
[01:23] <Kamion> asw: it's the bits we selected to make up Ubuntu (minus universe)
[01:23] <jdub> asw: the word 'core' doesn't mean anything in ubuntu land
[01:24] <jdub> asw: you probably mean main (which is base + desktop + supported seeds)
[01:24] <jdub> (and other bits to make all of that work)
[01:24] <Kamion> (main+restricted)
[01:24] <jdub> (it's kinda complicated)
[01:25] <Kamion> it's accumulated an amusing amount of gargoyley bits in a mere six months
[01:25] <Kamion> reminds me; must get round to making germinate public.
[01:26] <asw> you are going to do releases every six. It should get interesting. 
[01:26] <Kamion> oh, does anyone know how to mirror just part of an arch archive, or even if you can?
[01:27] <Kamion> I realised that making germinate's history public means that I have to either do that or create some kind of a public branch
[01:27] <Kamion> (the archive containing germinate contains a bunch of other stuff as well, not sure whether all of it should be public)
[01:31] <lamont> sabdfl: ping
[01:32] <sabdfl> lamont: hi
[01:32] <lamont> status on live cd
[01:33] <lamont> I think I have everything now to build bits at the house, which will shorten the turnaround on testing, although it's still 30+min/iteration
[01:34] <Kamion> heh, strange reversal; for me it always worked out faster to build in the datacentre, but that's because rsync works for me :)
[01:34] <lamont> I still need to catch another hour's sleep before I'm really safe to be doing any serious hacking
[01:34] <lamont> and then I need to deal with the other 3 of 4 splash screens
[01:35] <lamont> grub says morphix, bootsplash is ubuntu, etc
[01:35] <lamont> then I need to apply some sanity filters to the packages and where they're coming from
[01:36] <lamont> all in all, I'm hoping to have something for the developer community tonight sometime, and more general release tomorrow night (US times)
[01:37] <lamont> sabdfl: actually, looking at people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/warty-live-20041015-20.iso the grub splash is the only really unacceptable one.
[01:38] <sabdfl> ok, thanks for the update
[01:38] <sabdfl> lamont: how is it working?
[01:38] <sabdfl> branding aside?
[01:39] <lamont> seems OK on the vaio
[01:39] <sabdfl> great!
[01:39] <sabdfl> do you have alex's latest kernel, with all our drivers?
[01:39] <lamont> alex's latest stuff, our latest stuff
[01:39] <sabdfl> Kamion: do you know if we are blacklisting oss modules where we know we have alsa ones?
[01:39] <sabdfl> lamont: super
[01:39] <lamont> however, there may be some morphix/knoppix packages overriding warty packages.
[01:39] <lamont> that's the package sanity that needs to be applied
[01:39] <sabdfl> ok, would you know which ones?
[01:40] <lamont-live> moo even
[01:41] <sabdfl> shush, lamont-live, this channel covers the indian subcontinent too
[01:41] <sabdfl> moo back
[01:41] <jdub> regarding the topic of this thread, wait 6 new background images to see
[01:41] <jdub> the new xorg server in hoary ;)
[01:41] <jdub> ^ heh ;-)
[01:41] <jdub> like counting sleeps
[01:41] <lamont-live> of course, with 256 MB of RAM on the box, this is a bit sluggish...
[01:41] <Kamion> sabdfl: not to my knowledge (although that's not the same as no)
[01:42] <lamont-live> fireing up oo.o
[01:42] <sabdfl> Kamion: oops
[01:42] <sabdfl> i wonder if that isn't the cause of a lot of the sound problems
[01:42] <Kamion> sabdfl: does it cause a problem to have the oss equivalents?
[01:42] <Kamion> I thought we were supporting both for warty and killing oss for hoary, but I might be out of touch
[01:42] <sabdfl> Kamion: certainly does in some cases, can't say definitively
[01:43] <Kamion> d'oh
[01:43] <jdub> haha, dudes in the linuxtoday editorial:
[01:43] <jdub> "Did anybody notice the new bootsplash and login screens for Ubuntu Linux that came out in the latest release this week? Apparently, some people thought that the photos of less than fully clothed twenty-somethings were a bit too sexual. having been in theatre, I have seen a lot worse. The word from the Ubuntu folks was that these folks were supposed to represent humanity. That's cool by me. I had a question, though. How did they come up with the money fo
[01:43] <sabdfl> Kamion: we were using the oss intereface that also provides
[01:43] <sabdfl> alsa, not also
[01:43] <sabdfl> mdz: need you to weigh in on something
[01:44] <sabdfl> anyhow, what do you guys think of me hosting am irc chat to discuss the artwork, to get a broader community view?
[01:44] <jdub> Kamion: can't really choose to kill oss compat for hoary unless we put in the time to make it work
[01:44] <jdub> sabdfl: might just be painful
[01:45] <Kamion> discover seems to load a few oss modules (not all of them), I'm sure hotplug does too
[01:45] <Kamion> could probably go through discover and change the listings, at least
[01:46] <Kamion> for hotplug a blacklist would be possible
[01:46] <sabdfl> jdub: i've been asking on #ubuntu, and feedback has actually been quite positive
[01:46] <sabdfl> mdz: around?
[01:46] <sabdfl> discover.conf allows you to blacklist
[01:46] <sabdfl> "skip xxx"
[01:46] <jdub> yeah, though not sure people on a massive and busy irc channel are hugely representative ;)
[01:47] <sabdfl> jdub: got a better suggestion?
[01:47] <sivang> i really likr the bootsplash
[01:47] <Kamion> sabdfl: yes, but much better to list the right drivers than to blacklist the wrong ones
[01:47] <sabdfl> slashdot poll? <duck>
[01:47] <sivang> night all
[01:47] <sabdfl> Kamion: listing the right one doesn't stop it from loading the wrong one, afaik
[01:47] <sabdfl> and if it loads the wrong one first, then the right one is blocked
[01:48] <Kamion> uh, discover won't do that
[01:48] <Kamion> something else might
[01:48] <jdub> sabdfl: not off the top of my head, if you're wanting wider response than the mailing list
[01:48] <Kamion> alsa-base does the hotplug blacklist, I think
[01:48] <sabdfl> jdub: i'm trying to get a sense of what the average user thinks, not just the user that vents on a list about it
[01:48] <jdub> sabdfl: your best bet, scarily enough, is to go to a shopping centre and ask normal people :-)
[01:49] <Kamion> anyway, if discover1-data/pci.lst doesn't list the OSS drivers then discover won't load them, so that's the cleanest solution if mdz's happy with the change at this date
[01:49] <jdub> sabdfl: (yeah, irc is less representative than a mailing list)
[01:49] <sabdfl> hmm... so would the question go something like:
[01:49] <sabdfl> "folks are you offended by all of these images you see in advertisements around you"?
[01:49] <Kamion> that sounds like a leading question
[01:49] <jdub> i'd ask a few
[01:49] <jdub> "Do you like this image?"
[01:50] <sabdfl> anyhow, we've had our debate, and i'm close to a decision, but i would like to host the discussion in a more interactive form than the mailing list
[01:50] <jdub> "Would you like this on a billboard advertisement?"
[01:50] <jdub> "Would you like this on your computer?"
[01:50] <jdub> those kinds of things
[01:51] <jdub> perhaps go into specific use cases
[01:51] <sabdfl> since we clearly can't do that before release, i suggest we focus on the options we do have
[01:52] <jdub> heh: "And, more seriously, does anyone at Linspire ever do anything than come up with silly marketing schemes?"
[01:52] <jdub> sabdfl: it's saturday morning here ;)
[01:52] <jdub> (jesus, i can't believe i'm suggesting a survey and/or focus group)
[01:54] <sabdfl> ok, when would be the best time to host a discussion on irc on this?
[01:54] <sabdfl> over the w/e, or monday?
[01:54] <sabdfl> (my preference is in 12 hours time)
[01:54] <sabdfl> we are not trying to get everyone, just a sample
[01:54] <jdub> w/e is pretty good
[01:55] <sabdfl> sat, sunday? 
[01:55] <jdub> 12 hours means sat night here
[01:55] <jdub> maybe more notice would be good
[01:56] <jdub> hahaha
[01:56] <sabdfl> we could do it monday, but that leaves things very tight for the changes we are going to have to make, inevitably
[01:57] <jdub> the changes are not very scary
[01:57] <jdub> just one package
[02:00] <jdub> sabdfl: btw, stretched gdm doesn't look too bad. they just look chubby. ;)
[02:03] <jdub> sabdfl: oh, the plain and simple backgrounds - do we really want them? they're not really different enough from the default
[02:16] <lamont> actually, playing with -20, I think I would like it if more people would grab it and give me feedback.  http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/warty-live-20041015-20.iso
[02:16] <lamont> seems to work fine on my laptop.
[02:17] <lamont> meanwhile, creating the livecd build environment here to do testing.  hope I don't have to run down the street to fetch more bits.
[02:17] <sabdfl> jdub: can do without the one which has the gradient and nothing else
[02:17] <sabdfl> the other one (simple?) is useful because it's monocolour
[02:17] <sabdfl> or, few colours
[02:18] <jdub> ok
[02:18] <jdub> mind if i call them 'Chocolate' and 'Chocolate Simple'?
[02:19] <jdub> same issue as calling things 'Ubuntu' and 'Default'
[02:19] <sabdfl> jdub: not at all, go ahead
[02:19] <sabdfl> "chocolate calender"?
[02:20] <jdub> calendar ones are better off with month names
[02:20] <sabdfl> i was checked into a hotel in jhb the other day
[02:20] <sabdfl> and the guy was telling me that several of my foundation employees had stayed there
[02:21] <sabdfl> then he said "last week we had miss january"
[02:21] <sabdfl> so i asked him why he couldn't have miss september there for me
[02:21] <sabdfl> he looked at me blankly
[02:21] <jdub> heh
[02:21] <sabdfl> then i remembered i actually have an employee called Miss January
[02:21] <jdub> hahaha
[02:21] <sabdfl> oops
[02:21] <sabdfl> i was a little embarrassed
[02:21] <jdub> badness ;)
[02:38] <lamont> thom: you around?
[02:38] <lamont> nm
[02:55] <jdub> hrm
[02:55] <lifeless> mmm?
[02:55] <jdub> recommended course of action when an upstream release is made in ... .zip format?
[02:55] <jdub> lamont, Kamion: ?
[02:56] <lifeless> fall over laughing, point finger at upstream
[02:56] <Kamion> unzip and repack as .tar.gz
[02:56] <jdub> (ok, more out of interest now than necessity)
[02:56] <jdub> Kamion: ahr
[02:56] <jdub> thanks
[02:56] <jdub> fear ;)
[02:56] <Kamion> aye
[02:57] <mjg59> Beagle is astoundingly lovely gorgeous
[02:57] <mjg59> Except for it consuming far too much in the way of resources and being generally slow, but still
[03:02] <mjg59> Oooh
[03:02] <mjg59> jdub: You are my bestest friend in the whole world
[03:04] <jdub> i've been pimping culchie, too
[03:04] <jdub> friend followed up to a post about it
[03:04] <jdub> "is that guy irish, and knows what culchie means?"
[03:04] <jdub> "absolutely."
[03:04] <jdub> (he's fake irish)
[03:05] <mjg59> Haha
[03:06] <mjg59> Feck
[03:06] <lamont> Kamion: I found what happened with 1123
[03:07] <lamont> elmo about?
[03:08] <lamont> mdz/jdub: mind if I re-upload the fix to 1123?
[03:08] <lamont> and this time I'll babysit it through the entire process until it's IN THE (*^)%$%)&*_^*R^& ARCHIVE
[03:10] <jdub> lamont: did mdz confirm it earlier?
[03:10] <lamont> I believe so
[03:12] <jdub> if it's approved and just needs upload babying, that should be okay, surely?
[03:13] <lamont> well, it was approved october 5
[03:13] <lamont> which was, like, a different universe
[03:13] <jdub> heh
[03:14] <Kamion> mjg59: culchie is an excellent name :-)
[03:14] <jdub> lamont: ok, reconfirmed
[03:14] <lamont> thanks. Uploading now
[03:15] <lamont> Successfully uploaded packages.
[03:15] <lamont> lets see...
[03:18] <Kamion> oh my god, it BUILT
[03:18] <Kamion> and I have a 13MB compressed initrd
[03:19] <lamont> Kamion: I'm not sure which scares me more...
[03:19] <Kamion> this is gtk d-i
[03:19] <Kamion> chances of it actually working are minimal :-)
[03:35] <lamont> source is in the archive.
[03:36] <tseng> #ubuntu has now seen it all.
[03:39] <tseng> are there still nfs/portmapper bugs?
[03:43] <Kamion> whoa
[03:43] <Kamion> IT BOOTS
[03:43] <nasdaq4088> :)
[03:43] <Kamion> (albeit with init=/bin/sh and stepping through things by hand then fixing stuff up before starting d-i)
[03:44] <Kamion> it's the ugliest graphical installer in all history ever, but IT BOOTS
[03:45] <lamont> Kamion: awesome.
[03:53] <mjg59> Kamion: That's, uh, sick.
[03:53] <Kamion> which?
[03:54] <mjg59> The idea of a graphical installer like that :)
[03:55] <Kamion> not intended to stay that way, of course
[03:56] <Kamion> but the fact that gtk theme engines are linked against libgtk-x11 means it's an extra layer of pain and suffering to drop a nice theme in
[03:56] <Kamion> I wonder if they actually use X calls
[03:58] <Kamion> mmm, yum, conffiles in d-i
[04:05] <Kamion> mdz: it's an odd one, isn't it?
[04:05] <Kamion> mdz: your answer is the only one I can think of, but he said he didn't have a network
[04:06] <mdz> Kamion: do we even have CD images old enough to not have that change?
[04:06] <Kamion> no
[04:06] <Kamion> well, unless he dug up Sounder $SMALLNUM
[04:07] <Kamion> 5 or less I think
[04:10] <jdub> Kamion: oh, fun!
[04:24] <Kamion> damnit, hate when my mirror decides to update (and desync) in the middle of doing work
[04:29] <mjg59> Oh.
[04:30] <mjg59> I have the Beagle/GTKFileChooser interaction working.
[04:30] <mjg59> This is just stupendously cool.
[04:30] <jdub> stfu
[04:30] <mjg59> jdub: Dude, I have packages
[04:30] <jdub> cool
[04:31] <jdub> thom was doing some stuff on those too
[04:31] <jdub> thom: pingeriner
[04:31] <mjg59> jdub: Dude, it's 03:30 here
[04:32] <jdub> oh yeah
[04:44] <Kamion> woohoo, and now it boots without post-boot hackery
[05:32] <fabbione> morning guys
[05:38] <lamont> fabbione: wanna bang on a livecd?
[05:39] <fabbione> lamont: why not...
[05:39] <lamont> well, it's certainly not the one we'll ship, for starters.. :-)
[05:39] <lamont> http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/warty-live-20041015-20.iso
[05:40] <lamont> artwork is known to be in need of work
[05:40] <fabbione> ok
[05:40] <lamont> but seems to work for me.
[05:41] <fabbione> 40min ETA
[05:42] <lamont> gnomesword (universe) is ftbfs, btw.
[05:42] <lamont> so syncing it from debian didn't really do much. :-(
[05:44] <mdz> lamont: yeah, mentioned it to the requesters already
[05:44] <mdz> probably some fast-buildd race, since it built for them
[05:44] <mdz> but even the ones they built didn't work, so it's doubly fucked
[05:45] <lamont> heh
[05:45] <lamont> usually it's because *.am is patched after *.in in their diff.gz
[05:46] <daniels> jamesh: ping
[05:51] <Keybuk> lamont: flipdiff
[05:55] <lamont> when does apt say 'E: Broken packages'?
[05:56] <fabbione> daniels: ping
[05:56] <daniels> pong
[05:58] <mdz> lamont: uninstallable packages
[05:58] <fabbione> mdz: did you get the color code patch from daniels?
[06:00] <lamont> figures
[06:04] <daniels> fabbione: not yet, just woke up
[06:04] <daniels> working on it now
[06:09] <fabbione> this message from the kernel is scary
[06:09] <fabbione> i have never seen it before
[06:10] <vorlon> fabbione: "I am your singing telegram"?
[06:10] <fabbione> vorlon: no i am waiting the boot to ssh and copy&pastye
[06:11] <fabbione> crap!
[06:11] <fabbione> it doesn't show in dmesg
[06:11] <fabbione> an no
[06:11] <fabbione> here it is
[06:11] <fabbione> PCI: Address space collision on region 7 of bridge 0000:00:1f.0 [f800:f87f] 
[06:11] <fabbione> PCI: Address space collision on region 8 of bridge 0000:00:1f.0 [fa00:fa3f] 
[06:11] <fabbione> PCI: Transparent bridge - 0000:00:1e.0
[06:11] <fabbione> PCI: Cannot allocate resource region 9 of bridge 0000:00:01.0
[06:14] <vorlon> yum.
[06:15] <Keybuk> I like the "Mr Potato Head" ones
[06:15] <lamont> fabbione: I get one of those on my machine...
[06:16] <daniels> ok, I've got it, just need to get the colour right now
[06:16] <daniels> (you need to allocate a scratch GC, change the fill style, then draw that into a 1x1 rectangle which you use as a template for a polyfill of the entire root window)
[06:17] <Keybuk> PCI: Cannot allocate resource region 4 of device 0000:00:02.1
[06:17] <daniels> (not to mention allocating a colormap first to do the rgb->pixel translation; I forgot that the pixel values were different in X land, they're sort of packed unsigned longs)
[06:17] <Keybuk> I just assumed it was the PCI stuff feeling needy and wanting someone to notice it
[06:17] <daniels> s/X land/Xserver land/
[06:17] <lamont> Oct 14 06:53:39 mix kernel: PCI: Cannot allocate resource region 4 of device 0000:00:02.1
[06:18] <lamont> 0000:00:02.1 SMBus: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] : Unknown device 0016
[06:18] <Keybuk> 0000:00:02.1 SMBus: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] : Unknown device 0016
[06:18] <Keybuk> snap
[06:18] <fabbione> lamont: i am not too scared about it.
[06:18] <fabbione> windows works as much as all the hardware in linux
[06:18] <fabbione> but sometimes it seems more slow than usual
[06:18] <fabbione> probably it ware there before too and i did never notice
[06:18] <Keybuk> Oct 16 03:05:09 descent kernel: APIC error on CPU0: 02(40)
[06:18] <Keybuk> ^ I get a lot of those too
[06:21] <fabbione> Keybuk: you are doomed :P
[06:21] <Keybuk> doesn't seem to do or mean anything, I just think it likes chatting
[06:22] <jdub> it means "plug in the CPU, silly mans!"
[06:42] <fabbione> lamont: it boots fine here
[06:42] <fabbione> (the live cd)
[06:44] <fabbione-live> there
[06:44] <lamont> cool.  see anything besides the artwork, please send me email
[06:45] <lamont-live> ditto
[06:46] <fabbione> i need to kill a user for stupidity first
[06:46] <lamont> anyone who wants something to play with is welcome to play with -20, but understand that the artwork is not done yet
[06:46] <lamont> gotta get rid of that morphix grub message. :-)
[07:19] <daniels> mdz: ok, I'm not sure this is doable, tbh
[07:19] <daniels> mdz: hardcoding the pixel values in works fine (but this is bogus, because that's only realistically going to work on my setup, unless I'm very much mistaken), but it looks like the colormap simply isn't installed when we call MakeRootTile()
[07:19] <daniels> mdz: all of my calls to colormap stuff just returns with a black pixel
[07:23] <lamont> seb128 around?
[07:25] <daniels> fabbione: ^^
[07:33] <lamont> GAH
[07:34] <lamont> cdr drive is unhappy
[07:47] <fabbione> bah
[07:47] <fabbione> module-init-tools or kernel is broken
[07:47] <fabbione> if you ban a module
[07:47] <fabbione> it still gets loaded
[07:48] <fabbione> like if you remove the ipv6 aliase
[07:48] <fabbione> the first application that attempts to access ipv6 will trigger the module load
[07:49] <lamont> fabbione: as it sits, postfix requires ipv6 :-(
[07:50] <lamont> listens on ::1 and 127.0.0.1
[07:55] <fabbione> lamont: postfix is not the only one at fault
[07:56] <fabbione> see 2443
[07:56] <fabbione> the funny thing is that if you trigger the failure once
[07:56] <fabbione> and compare teh 2 ntpdate strace
[07:57] <fabbione> you can see that at the first time it tries a modprobe
[07:57] <fabbione> the second time it simply say: hey protocol not supported
[07:57] <fabbione> hem to trigger the failure you need to do the workaround described there
[08:00] <lamont> likewise, postfix forces ipv4
[08:01] <daniels> thom: would you be happy with uploading acpi-support to stop/start hal around suspend/resume to fix #1940?
[08:01] <daniels> mdz: ^^
[08:02] <fabbione> daniels: i read that stuff
[08:03] <daniels> fabbione: 1940?
[08:03] <fabbione> no the color thingy
[08:03] <fabbione> can't we just replace the MakeWhitePix with MakeUbuntuPix?
[08:05] <daniels> thing is, 0 is always going to be black, and 1 is always going to be white
[08:05] <daniels> but UbuntuPix won't always be 14797462
[08:05] <daniels> (depends on the depth, how it's packed, possibly endianness ...)
[08:07] <daniels> and I'm not sure that we have a working colormap installed at MakeRootTile() time
[08:32] <daniels> right, I'm almost certain now that there is no colormap installed for the root window when we come to make the root tile
[08:33] <daniels> as in, about one hundred per cent
[08:37] <doko> morning
[08:46] <daniels> gah, this is bongtastic.
[09:06] <SuperL4g> Are there multiple apt mirrors for Ubuntu, or just one?
[09:07] <Keybuk> there are a few
[09:08] <Keybuk> http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/Archive
[09:09] <SuperL4g> Thank you, sir.
[11:27] <amu> moin maedels
[12:24] <sabdfl>  /msg jdub how's the artwork looking?
[12:44] <amu>  /msg sabdfl g'morning ;)
[12:44] <sabdfl> hey amu
[12:45] <amu> testing live and got around +50 bugs *g* 
[12:48] <sabdfl> amu: bugs in the packages or bugs in the way the livecd works?
[12:50] <amu> kind of both, ex. sound works, playing mp3/streams doesnt, some are from design, like screensaver, he ask my password, but i didnt set one  
[12:52] <sabdfl> hmm... ubuntu default for screensaver does not ask password, i don't think
[12:52] <sabdfl> the livecd should surely be picking up all the ubuntu defaults?
[12:52] <sabdfl> mp3 support we don't have for patent reasons
[12:53] <amu> no idea, I just booted the cd, didnt compared the packagebase, well i can't 
[12:56] <amu> -> lock screen ... black xscreensaver 4.16 comes, with login warty, i press enter, nothing happen, typ foo nothing ... reboot  
[12:58] <amu> I write everything together and send it to lamont ?  
[12:58] <sabdfl> amu: yes please
[12:59] <sabdfl> amu: is it possible to apt-get update a livecd while it's running, to see how the packages would change?
[01:04] <amu> do not frighten, I fight with nearly the same problems, everything could be fixed, but it's time-intensively ...
[01:04] <amu> just rebooted ( screensaver ) 
[01:14] <nasdaq4088> when is ubuntu released?-i can't wait anymore
[01:16] <amu> sorry, again a restart, gnome-pannel crashed
[01:17] <maskie> nasdaq4088, around the 20th oct -- 
[01:21] <nasdaq4088> ok thank you maskie
[01:26] <amu> sabdfl: hmm my network doesnt work ;) could be a problem of my virtual-pc, i tried on other testmaschins, upgrading should be no problem .. unfortunately liveCD has problems with my desktop ( s-ata & raid ) takes 30min. to boot 
[01:27] <sabdfl> amu: i'll try it here
[01:27] <sabdfl> which is the download url?
[01:28] <amu>  http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/warty-live-20041015-20.iso
[01:31] <amu> postfix could be also a problem, if booted it, replace postfix with another one
[01:53] <amu> got it finally, apt-get update gives a error: warty/main Packages I got, E: Method http has died unexpectedly! 
[02:13] <tuo2> sabdfl: nice nick
[02:13] <tuo2> :)
[02:13] <sabdfl> hi
[03:45] <Kamion> fabbione: followed up to #2429 for you
[04:09] <carlos> mdz: could be closed http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=267731 ?
[04:09] <carlos> (I know it's offtopic, sorry)
[04:10] <lamont> morning
[04:10] <doko> good afternoon
[04:24] <lamont> http://www.schneier.com/blog/
[04:24] <lamont> coolness
[04:47] <carlos> seb128: hey
[04:52] <seb128> hello carlos 
[05:01] <amu> hi lamont 
[05:26] <lamont> morning amu
[05:26] <lamont> reading your mail before I get dragged out the door to take my daughter to town
[05:33] <lamont> amu: did resolv.conf just have the two components in the search list domain, or did it have a leading 'warthogs'?
[05:44] <lamont> amu: after I run make in SuSE, what all files do I need to toss over?  Looks like message and install/help.*
[05:46] <lamont>  /bin/sh: line 1: help2txt: command not found
[05:46] <lamont> hrm.
[05:46] <lamont> must run.  bbiab
[06:29] <mdz> lamont: ping?
[06:29] <mdz> lamont: is there anything newer than alex's wartylive-v7?
[07:16] <sabdfl> mdz: looks to me as though alex used the latest versions of the modules
[07:16] <sabdfl> ipw.056 etc
[07:17] <sabdfl> we are running 0.53... 
[07:17] <sabdfl> the two versions use different firmware versions
[07:17] <sabdfl> hence the glitch i referred to by email
[08:06] <lamont> mdz: people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/warty-live-20041015-20.iso is my latest, which still needs a bit of work.
[08:06] <lamont> I don't think alex has uploaded anything newer than what went into rcc3
[08:08] <lamont> where does help2txt come from, I wonder??
[10:46] <lamont> I hate rebooting
[10:57] <sivang> lamont : yeah. it sucks
[10:57] <lamont> sivang: especially just to ulock a frigging drive
[10:58] <lamont> I mean, reboot is one way to terminate a process with extreme prejudice, but, really.
[10:58] <sivang> lamont : couldn't you kill the insulting proccess ?
[10:58] <lamont>  uninterruptably-blocked on 'mempoo' in the kernel
[10:58] <lamont> as soon as it unblocks, it'll get all the signals I've sent it.
[10:58] <sivang> lamont : hmm, I guess I should have deduced from that that it's ignoring singlas or something..:)
[10:59] <lamont> ps -lfp xxx, column 2 == 'D' is bad.
[11:00] <lamont> in that it indicates waiting at uninterruptable priority.  You shouldn't really see those ever
[11:00] <sivang> lamont : I thank you for another important thing explaind.
[11:01] <lamont> sivang: the kernel is a fun place to code.  Really. :-)
[11:21] <lamont_live> seb128, you around?
[11:49] <seb128> lamont: yes
[11:50] <lamont> any clues why gnome would go bugnutso on me?
[11:50] <lamont> "detected another panel running, exiting"
[11:50] <lamont> about 20 times, and then no panel
[11:52] <seb128> killall gnome-panel
[11:52] <seb128> but what have you done to get this situation ?
[11:52] <lamont> reboot
[11:52] <lamont> with about 16 million windows open.
[11:53] <lamont> or maybe only 75.. :0)
[11:53] <lamont> I solved it by moving .gnome and .gnome2 out of the way.
[11:53] <seb128> do you still have the faulty dirs ? 
[11:54] <seb128> could be useful to make some tests to find what went wrong
[11:55] <Mithrandir> Kamion: 1659; you happy with me reassigning to you?
[11:57] <ddaa> asw, so you are interested in gnu-arch and texmacs?