lamontGAH  where is the / key on a german keyboard???12:12
lamontmaybe booting in german wasn't such a good idea...12:13
lamontseb128: computer menu seems to be lacking some translations, maybe? (livecd)12:14
seb128in which language ?12:15
seb128computer menu has a very bad translation level since we changed it and almost nobody sent translations12:16
seb128the de one should be ok12:17
seb128what string is missing ?12:17
lamontand I kinda suspect that 'Terminal' isn't german either12:17
lamontI see nothing but english in the Computer pulldown12:17
lamontDesktop Prefs looks good12:17
seb128I've not tested the livecd12:17
lamontas does system config12:18
seb128but for sure that works on a standard warty install12:18
seb128nothing, are you sure ?12:18
lamontseb128: not surprising, since I'm still playing with getting the damn thing more warty12:18
seb128even the screenshot entry ?12:18
lamont"Take Screenshot..."12:18
seb128this is an upstream translation12:19
lamontof course, OO.o startup bitches that the i18n system doesn't support locale "", so I'm thinking it may be something beyond gnome...12:19
lamontand comes up english12:19
seb128you have a problem with your environment12:19
seb128I've a full german menu here, and the screenshot one is not a canonical change but an old upstream one12:20
seb128dpkg -L gnome-panel-data | grep locale/de12:20
seb128 ?12:20
lamontlocale bitches that it can't set LC_{CTYPE,MESSAGES,ALL} to the default locale: no such file12:21
lamontand then dumps 'de_DE@euro' for all of them (except LC_ALL)12:21
=== lamont tries booting more properly
mdzsabdfl: so you're saying alex gathered everything from upstream rather than using the patches we have in our kernel source ready to go?12:29
dokolamont: "Terminal" is german (at least that's the translation used in the Gnome menu)12:39
lamontdoko: ok12:39
dokolamont: what exactly is the problem (with the Live-CD?)12:39
lamontat this point, looking at various mostly minor things.12:42
lamontgetting the artwork to be ubuntu artwork is my current test nemesis12:42
lamontafter that, international language issues seem to be the more common ones12:42
lamontis there an ubuntu-ship package that depends on everything we ship on the CD??12:42
=== lamont thinks there should be.
dokook, please email me where I can help. I'm going to bed now.12:42
lamontdoko: ok.  I hope to have an ISO on people.ubuntu.com in a few hours (before you wake up, in other words()12:42
dokofine, good night.12:44
calclamont: can dpkg handle a depends line that long?01:11
calclamont: a couple years ago when i tried to make a kde-i18n depend on ~ 50 packages it wouldn't work01:11
lamontcalc: so you split it up into pieces.. :)01:11
lamontbut probably not01:12
danielsclearly your Binary lines weren't long enough01:13
danielsshould've added more binary packages.  lamont really likes it when you do that.01:13
lamontdaniels: remind me to teach you a few new pressure points next time we're in the same room......01:13
calcdaniels: heh01:14
danielslamont: hey man, I'm the one working on breaking it up :)01:15
danielslamont: last I checked, my xlibs/xfonts/xorg packages ran to about 57 source packages01:15
calcdaniels: is there a list of what still needs work on that part?01:15
danielsnow, if I managed to sensibly get a Binary line >= 1024 from that, I think I should be commended, not killed01:15
danielscalc: yeah -- these were just preliminary packages.  i still need to beat on the upstream xlibs and do releases of all the modules, then we need to sit down and do a patch audit.01:16
daniels(i managed to get 'massive vendor merge' on the x11r7 agenda, so this pain will dissipate.)01:16
calcok i am about 3/4 way through the arch tutorial then I can start trying to help out with that stuff01:16
danielsfabio and I haven't actually got it into arch yet01:17
danielsthe split is that we have one source package for every upstream (fd.o) xlibs/apps package, one xfonts source package, and one 'xorg' source package that just contains the X server and Mesa, basically01:18
daniels(plus a couple of other libraries where breaking the build out would require massive, painful, code changes, e.g. Xfont)01:18
danielsoh, and a 'kdrive' source package01:18
danielsthat's the split I originally did, and the one I still favour doing.  fabio has been exploring a different option, and his stuff is in XSF SVN, in the xorg module.01:19
danielswe're getting together for a fortnight in denmark, in a fortnight01:19
danielsand someone will dangle a bloodied scrap of meat, and whoever emerges the winner ...01:19
calci think i've spent all the spare money i have until i get a job01:20
calchopefully i'll find one soon01:20
lamontmdz: empty partial files are bad juju for apt...01:32
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lamontdaniels: 2441 - lol01:52
sabdflmdz: just realised that i never sent the mail i have written on the new livecd01:56
sabdflyes, i think he's got the latest upstream module versions running on 2.6.701:57
sabdflin general i think that's fine but afaics the firmware versions may have change01:57
sabdfle.g. ipw2100 now requires firmware 1.3, and we are shipping 1.201:57
sabdflpersonally, i think we should just go "whooooop" and put in the latest ipw2100, ipw2200 and fw, but i am only saying that because i know you'll decline the opportunity01:59
sabdflthe EDGE is for hoary, i know01:59
=== lamont burns what he hopes will be the rcc liveCD, home edition
lamontit must be emphasized that the live CD is a subset of the whole warty experience02:08
lamontjdub: images I'm testing are the first set I sent you, btw.02:08
danielssabdfl: but will it bleed?02:24
sabdflno doubt, no doubt02:25
jdublamont: trying chocolate with the grub menu?02:27
danielslamont: just randomly triaging02:30
mdzsabdfl: I would rather he use our versions02:54
mdzsabdfl: we've made bugfixes to them02:54
sabdflyes, of course :-)02:54
sabdflhe needs to move the firmware into /lib/hotplug/firmware unless it also checks /usr/lib/hotplug/firmware02:55
sabdflhe also may need to tag the firmware with the kernel version02:55
sabdflthen i can test some more02:55
sabdflnight, i'm toast, an workrave has been insistent for a while02:55
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rublindCan someone help me with my sound card problems?02:59
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mirak_hehe,,,,hi guys03:00
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calcsabdfl: does ipw2200 work good?03:25
calcsabdfl: aiui everything but monitor mode is in now(?)03:25
jdubhow do you test monitor mode?03:26
calcdon't remember, i don't have working wifi under linux right now, i am waiting for the 2915abg to be released03:27
azeemif it works with hostap, you can try kismet to see whether monito mode works perhaps03:27
lamontjdub: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/dscn1377.jpg03:27
azeemipw2100 works with kismet, AFAIK03:28
=== jdub installs kismet
azeemI have 'source=hostap,eth1,hostapsource' in /etc/kismet/kismet.conf03:29
lamontjdub: how does that screen look?03:32
lamontyou get 15 indexed colors, and about 640x480 to work in.  I don't think it'll get much better.03:32
jdubso it looks like i'll have to put the arrows in and stuff03:32
lamontyou want the pcx?03:32
jdubyou sent it earlier03:33
lamontnot this one03:33
lamontthat one was about 10x too big03:33
lamont(it's really just warty-final-flat scaled to 640x480, and converted to 15 indexed colors)03:34
lamontstill need to decide what to do with the penguin on the f2 screen.03:34
lamontgetting dragged off to dinner, will publish the CD in a couple hours or so.03:34
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mdzcalc: ipw2200 works perfectly for me04:02
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calcmdz: cool :)04:15
jdubi can even connect to non-broadcast essids now ;)04:16
calci hope the 2915abg will work ok in my laptop being its not a centrino one04:16
calcgoing to try to stick it in a amd64 laptop04:16
=== jdub gives it a kermit-style yayyayayayyy!
azeembtw, somebody referenced mjg59's ibm-does-not-want-me-to-change-wlan rant in reader's letter to a german computer magazine on an article about notebook upgrading04:20
azeemwow, that was a long sentence. Even more so after three beers04:20
jdubthat's cool04:20
jdubsome times i worry about german magazines04:20
jdubweird shit turning up in them04:21
jdubsomeone mailed me a clipping of an article talking about GARNOME once04:22
jdubsome kind of flame about GARNOME being GNOME-specific or something04:22
jdub"GNOMEn schiesskopf, Jeff Waugh..."04:22
azeemhmm, I think I read a brief article about GARNOME in the above-mentioned magazine04:22
azeemdidn't flame you personally, though =)04:23
=== jdub was just imagining that quote ;)
mjg59I'm famous04:32
vorlons/famous/in&/ ;)04:33
mjg59(And drunk. Unrelated.)04:33
azeemwell, I'm drunk. And about being famous, my 'the Ubuntu development model' blog entry will hit DWN early next week, so you better point out all its flaws04:34
jdubmjg59: now that you're a star, you should be more careful about your help04:34
jdubazeem: that was a great entry, btw04:34
azeem(I didn't submit it, Joey must have picked it himself=)04:34
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jdubdo you perve on dwn cvs or something, and ruin the fun?04:35
mjg59I expected to be home 6 hours ago, and then got dragged to a club and bumped into some of my students04:36
mjg59It's very distressing. You're not allowed to pull them.04:36
azeemjdub: I was bored or something04:37
mjg59I need to find Dave Camp and make him fix the GtkFileChooser Beagle plugin04:38
lamontwhat's the lang code for afriakans?05:46
lamontdaniels: you around?05:51
fabbionemorning guys05:53
lamontfabbione: does the xf86 autodetection require logic outside of xserver-xfree86?  (That is, if I just have xresprobe and friends installed, does the right thing just happen)?05:54
fabbionelamont: no. everything is optional05:55
fabbioneit always check if a detection tool exists before using it05:55
fabbioneotherwise it switches to internal default05:55
lamontfabbione: the other direction.05:55
lamontif it's installed, will it always use it?05:55
fabbionelamont: if they are installed the magic should happen yes05:55
lamontand what packages need to be there for magic to happen?05:55
lamontxresprobe and?05:55
fabbionediscover1 mdetect laptop-detect xresprobe05:56
lamontwhat if discover1 isn't there...?05:56
lamont(liveCD has issues with discover1.)05:57
fabbionelamont: it would ask for the video driver05:58
fabbionebut i was told that the livecd uses another detection system05:58
lamontok.  could be that the liveCD is doing a bunch of the autodetecting for X.05:58
lamontdoesn't work on as much hardware as yours does, though05:58
fabbioneit doesn't use the same logic we do on plain installs05:58
lamontI'll leave yours absent then05:59
=== lamont kicks off one more build, then syncs the template files over
fabbionelamont: what is the problem with discover1 on livecd?06:00
tsenglamont: is it going to go around on its own and rebuild gtk-sharp and then get the mono apps?06:00
lamont<!--   <packagereq>discover1</packagereq> problems as it tries to -->06:00
lamont<!--   autodetect -->06:00
lamonttseng: it should, but I've been swamped dealing with lvieCD issues.06:00
lamontI'll kick it soon.06:00
lamontand get ppc through the mcs build and others.06:01
fabbionelamont: well that's problably because there was a init script in it or something.06:01
lamontfabbione: probably06:01
fabbionelamont: X uses only detect "video"06:01
lamonttseng: if it looks like one package needs a kick, telling me the name (in email), is the best way to go06:01
fabbionelamont: if you can you should give it a kick06:03
fabbionelamont: (discover1)06:03
fabbioneand see what happens06:03
lamontfabbione: step 1) rcc liveCD.  step 2) artwork from jdub,  step 3) add more packages, step 4) kick discover106:07
fabbioneroger :-)06:11
fabbionei need to test the last bug fixes on X06:12
lamonthrm.. I also need to sync the latest kernel from Alex06:12
=== lamont wanders off for a few minutes
fabbionemdz: ping06:23
lamonttseng: kicking gtk-sharp and monodoc07:03
lamonttseng: any chance you built amd64 bits too?  powerpc?07:04
lamontor just i386?07:04
=== vorlon twitches his nose at the mention of those packages in the context of portability.
lamontyeah, thought so.07:07
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:lamont] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 7 (count 'em) major bugs | please test http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/warty-live-20041017-05.iso
lamont687736832 bytes will fit on a CD, yes? :-)07:08
vorlonlamont: well, more because of the Debian maintainer's current attitude towards portability concerns than due to the portability problems in mono itself. :)07:09
lamontvorlon: what concerns? :-(07:09
vorlonlamont: see the changelog for the last mono upload, where rather than providing minimal support for !pet archs, Zomb changed the Architecture line.07:10
fabbionethat's lazyness07:12
lamontwhat do I have to kill to get my firefox bookmarks back?07:12
lamontah, import is your friend.07:14
lamontvorlon: good thing they plan to keep mono out of testing, eh?07:15
lamontunstable (interpreters): The Mono .NET development environment07:15
lamont1.0.2-1: i386 powerpc s39007:15
lamont1.0.1-1: alpha arm sparc07:15
lamont: alpha not in arch list: i386 powerpc s390 -- skipping07:16
vorlonlamont: yeah.  I did what I could to point them in the right direction, but if this is their attitude, they're on their own. :P07:16
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lamont-liveLiveCD, home edition seems happuy07:27
=== lamont just finally noticed that cdrecord says 'Asuming -tao ...'
lamontneeds another 's'07:28
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=== lamont rips some 'warty live CD "home edition"' test CD's for some local folks
lamontalthough I suppose I should go into town and download the real test CD..07:38
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lamontfabbione: why are you HMMMMing?07:52
fabbionei found another error in X autoconfig logic but that's easy to fix07:57
lamontfabbione: yep.  right after warty07:58
fabbioneit's a suboptimal fix but it works fine07:58
fabbionelamont: nope.. it will be in warty07:58
fabbioneit's part of a previous fix that mdz allowed to fix07:59
fabbione  * Respect selection-method user value on reconfiguration.08:00
fabbioneit's like:08:00
fabbioneif ! reconfiguring; then08:00
fabbione blabla08:00
fabbionebut it solves a bunch of interesting user horror experiences08:01
fabbionelike people that were running resolution XxY08:01
fabbioneand all of sudden they were bumped back to 640x480 after an upgrade08:01
lamontoops. :-(08:02
fabbionelamont: either today or during this week i will get my sparc up and running.08:12
fabbionelamont: after the release do you mind to help me setting up the buildd for warty/hoary?08:12
fabbionelamont: just tell me a time that fits you best and i will sleep/not sleep around it ;)08:12
lamontfabbione: sure.  Once we release, I have a desparate need to finish my wife's van (before I really do get killed), and I need to finish writing up the "so you want to bootstrap an architecture" paper.08:13
lamontbasically step 1 is to use snapshot.debian.org, 2004-06-28 to build a then-sarge chroot, then build all of the build-depends and chroot components.  Then you build a new chroot using the built components, and build everything.08:14
lamontat each step, preface the instructions with "do whatever it takes"08:14
lamontif it took very much evil, then plan on a complete clean rebuild of everything at the end.08:15
lamontthen there's di, of course.08:15
fabbionelamont: yup.. no rush about it. I need to get the hardware installed first ;)08:15
lamontbut once the port is complete, and everyone believes that it'll stay current, then we get to build the beast in the data center.08:15
fabbionelamont: yes i know about the DC stuff08:16
fabbionelamont: but i need to get used to admin a real buildd08:16
fabbioneand test everything locally08:16
lamontnew buildd coming for hoary anyway08:17
lamontand buildd assumes that you have w-b access, which we don't outside the data center.08:18
fabbionei know08:19
fabbionebut i can still use a local repo to do the first port08:19
lamontyep.  I'm looking at mini-dinstall to see if that'll work with what I want, or if I get to grow my own.08:20
fabbionelamont: http://debdev.fabbione.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/debarch/kelly?rev=1.4&view=log08:21
fabbionethat's almost a Debian pool08:21
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=== sivang sivang downloading lamont's live cd for testing.
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Keybukjdub: I didn't realise the tomboy guy was unemployed12:01
=== sivang is also unemployed :) Jobs are not easily found these days, especially open source ones...(although Israel's high tech is recovering)
sivangdoes anybody know if we already have an eclipse package?12:05
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danielslamont: sup?12:22
sivanghe's probably asleep :)12:23
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dokolamont: awake?01:18
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sivangdoko : probably still asleep01:36
dokosivang: he wanted to leave the live-CD for testing, do you know where I can find it?01:56
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sivangdoko : see channel's topic02:00
sivangdoko : http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/warty-live-20041017-05.iso02:00
sivangI got it at 98.9KB's , no rsync daemon running there though.02:01
sivangAm going to test it when I come back..02:01
sivangdaniels : you are still uploading packages by a sponser? (reading through your blog)02:02
danielssivang: debian packages, yeah02:03
danielshaven't been able to bootstrap a chroot yet02:03
sivangdaniels : nither do it, if you'd like to share some experience with me - I'd be glad 02:04
danielssivang: debootstrap sid ~/chroot/sid http://http.au.debian.org/debian/ /usr/lib/debootstrap/scripts/sid, should do it02:08
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nobseI just realized that subversion is in main, but subversion-tools is in universe. They are both from the same source package.02:38
nobseIs this intended?02:39
KamionMithrandir: yes02:56
Kamionlamont: I don't think ubuntu-ship is a good idea - it's not necessarily expected that people will install *all* of ship02:57
Kamionnobse: the main/universe-from-same-source-package is normal and expected; whether subversion-tools should be in main is a different question ...02:57
Kamion(I think it should - if we support subversion we should support subversion-tools)02:57
Kamionnobse: please mail ubuntu-devel02:57
nobseKamion: alright02:59
Kamionnobse: it is, however - er, how can I put this - VERY VERY LATE to be adding new packages to main :)03:00
Kamionnobse: it'll probably be a hoary thing03:00
nobsehehe, sure :)03:01
nobseI just wondered...03:01
nobseBut I'll ask on -devel.03:02
amuwarty-live-20041017-5 does not start :(03:21
azeemI get 'Kernel panic: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(9,0)'03:26
amulinuxrc,splashes, static compiled bins in miniroot.gz are not there03:34
jdubhi amu03:46
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amuhi jdub 03:48
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amujdub: gnoppix mirror on linux.org.au is out of sync, Anand runs the server ? 04:01
jdubhe helps out yeah04:01
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tsenglamont: sorry, i have no {amd64,ppc} for testing anything.04:20
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lamonttseng: np04:36
lamontjust means I have to do them the hard way. :-)04:37
lamontassuming that amd64 will even build the beast, that is... how is 64-bit support?04:37
tsenghm well04:37
tsengthe latest devel branch i think is that one that has native 6404:37
tsengthe stable (1.0.1) used a slower runtime interpreter (mint)  on amd rather than -jit04:38
tsengthe mono packages depend appropriately on -jit | -mint04:38
lamontamu: sigh04:38
lamonttseng: so I won't even bother trying amd64, sound right?04:39
tsengive never tried it myself, one of the gentoo amd64 guys said it sucked04:40
tsengon the converse, a few people have bugged me about not nhaving amd64 in there04:40
tsengthe source packages will be there, so they will be able to do the same thing I did04:42
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:lamont] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 7 (count 'em) major bugs
lamontI may try bootstrapping it at the same time as ppc (otoh, ppc has debian 1.0.1-1 bits)04:43
=== lamont discovers the screwup with 20041017-05, rebuilds after a trivial fix in the build scripts.
tsenglamont: looks like there is another reverse dep on gtk-sharp and monodoc04:46
tsenger, s/reverse/circular/g04:46
lamonttseng: yeah, was working on that last night some.04:46
lamontI'll clear it first thing in the morning.04:46
lamontright now I need to run away for the day04:47
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lamontwell, with a pass back by in about 20 minutes to upload 20041018-16 or such04:47
amulamont: servus ;) 04:54
plovs/join #python05:01
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:lamont] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 7 (count 'em) major bugs | please test http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/warty-live-20041018-16.iso
lamontwhere one change is not one change, but rather 3. :-(05:06
=== tseng wget
=== lamont leaves
lamontwell, first another strong glance at the output of the CD build05:06
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lamontnothing leaps out at me.  later05:09
mdzfabbione: pong05:37
fabbionemdz: hey05:37
fabbioneyou did catch me in a 3 minutes break05:38
fabbionemdz: i found another error related to the 640x480 problem05:38
mdzfabbione: I read a bit in scrollback05:38
fabbioneone block was not wrapped to be executed only on install 05:38
fabbioneand it was resetting some values across upgrades05:38
fabbioneit was noted by some users that "after upgrade -> reboot my X was at 640x480"05:39
fabbionethe fix is very simple05:39
mdzwell, since you have an X upload pending already, let's add it to that05:39
fabbioneif [ -z "$2" ] ; then05:39
fabbionei did already05:39
fabbionei was waiting blessing :-)05:39
mdzthat needs to be uploaded very soon05:39
fabbionemdz: tomorrow morning or later today05:39
mdzso that it can see a bit of testing before release05:39
fabbionei had to wait for daniles and you05:40
fabbionedaniels reported that it is not possible to patch X for the color thing05:40
fabbioneanyway i need to go away now05:40
fabbionei might take 10 minutes and upload later05:40
fabbioneall changes have been tested05:40
pittimdz: Hiya! Recently you asked me to upload g-v-m to my unofficial repo (#2370). Do you plan to allow it into Warty?05:44
mdzfabbione: ok05:45
mdzpitti: yes, I would like to05:46
mdzbut it is getting quite late now05:46
mdzI tested it a bit05:46
pittimdz: that's why I'm asking. The more we wait, the worse is uploading it05:46
pittimdz: it's not the most important thing, though, but it is no new code after all...05:47
mdzit looks good05:47
mdzgo ahead and upload05:47
pittimdz: I can announce it again on -users/-devel and we can see 05:47
pittimdz: oh, okay. If it should cause problems, I can revert the patch05:47
pittimdz: okay, I'll upload. Thanks.05:48
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danielsmdz: yes, not possible to do this sort of thing properly06:10
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mdzdaniels: brilliant07:11
=== mdz hugs X
=== sabdfl wonders what it feels like to ug an ageing porcupine
Kamionto ug?07:27
pittimdz: was anacron just forgotten to be included in the seeds, or is that deliberate?07:29
mdzpitti: see the bug about it07:30
pittimdz: oh, thanks07:30
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hornbeckjdub: what is in multiverse?07:41
azeemhornbeck: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/warty/multiverse/binary-i386/Packages.gz07:41
hornbeckazeem: thanks07:42
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pittiHi seb128! Nice Sunday evening!07:51
seb128hello pitti :)07:51
Keybukmdz: you still haven't actually provided any evidence of these so-called problems with it :)  it's always worked fine for me07:58
fabbioneseb128: what happened to my nice panel setting?08:04
seb128what ?08:04
fabbionei got the error about the trash applet08:05
fabbionei answered to keep it08:05
fabbioneand all my nice little tiny icons just disappeared08:05
fabbionei had a bunch of them on the panel08:06
seb128"the error" ? which one .. ?08:06
seb128I don't have any problem08:06
seb128you lost your configuration ?08:06
fabbionethe one that says that there was an error opening the trash applet08:07
fabbioneand asking if i wanted to keep it or delete it08:07
fabbioneand basically all my panel settings are gone08:07
Keybukkill the panel08:07
seb128killall gnome-panel08:07
fabbioneit's the same08:08
fabbionethey are gone08:08
seb128hum, the icons were some launchers ?08:09
fabbioneseb128: yes08:10
fabbionexterm, mozilla and a couple of few more08:10
fabbioneanyway.. not a big big deal08:10
fabbionejust curious if anybody saw this before08:10
seb128afaik we never got a bug report about a such problem08:10
fabbionei have /home on NFS if that makes a difference08:10
fabbionethan it must be a moon ray hitting my netcable08:10
fabbionegotta go08:10
sabdflKamion: to hug but not really mean it08:17
Keybukas apposed to an ugh, which is a hug with someone you find repulsive?08:45
mdzor a hug rotated one character to the left08:48
sabdflmdz: that sort of thinking has already got me into enough trouble with the artwork, thank you08:52
sivanghey, the artwork is __way__ cool. It's plain art, nomatter the reactions :)08:53
KeybukI still don't understand the severity of peoples reactions to it ... (a) it's nothing extraordinary, they're not wearing leather and brandishing whips and (b) you can change it!08:55
sivangKeybuk : me nither. It's really overrecating 08:56
Kamionyou can change lots of things, but we've still been concentrating really hard on sane defaults everywhere08:57
sivangYou imply that this is not a sane defaut?08:57
KamionI don't think it is, no. I've said this in more depth elsewhere, though.08:57
dokoI was once involved in a case at the university. for institutions/organizations it's the point that you _can_ install the "offending" background, you don't have to become actively involved in downloading it. For the community as a target the backgrounds are fine. (didn't sabdfl has a ubuntu-keybuk package for your special needs ;)09:03
sabdflthat the one with the leather and whips?09:05
dokosabdfl: yeah, don't know if you can call it artwork09:08
sabdfljust.... work :-)09:08
sivangeverything is art, it only depends on your prespective09:09
sabdfli'm interested to see tomorrow if the community feeling is that the new art is fine if it's there but not the default09:09
sivangisn't that right, sabdfl ?09:09
sabdflor if the vocal types will insist that it be removed from the cd09:09
sabdfland why stop there... perhaps even the entire archive09:09
sivanghey hey hey09:10
sivanglet's not get too scared by the vocals09:10
Kamionpersonally, I'd have absolutely no problem with it being there but not the default09:10
sabdflwell, i was thinking about it09:10
Kamiondunno what others will think; I think *most* of the comments have been about the default09:10
sabdflif these images are unacceptable, then a web site that served these images would be filtered09:11
Kamionbut that'll probably be coloured by my own opinion09:11
=== sivang hates to think he would have to go and change each and every machine of his to the once before "default" artwork :)
sabdflso, some of the -user guys would have an argument for filtering out the archive, because it "contains" offensive images09:11
sabdfli mean, the saudi arabian mega-proxy-filter couldn't selectively filter a package, right?09:12
sabdflbut i suppos gpg is illegal there tooo....09:12
Kamionthey might already be filtering it out because of the existence of pornview in universe ;)09:13
Kamion(although I think the actual porn got taken out of that a while back - due to copyright violation, of all things)09:13
sabdflas opposed to porn in main?09:13
=== sabdfl chuckles
sivangthere's a package named porn ?09:13
sivang(I know pornview)09:13
sabdflyes, called ubuntu-artwork09:14
sabdflby some definitions, it seems09:14
Kamionsabdfl: oh BTW, changing the subject entirely, I got an ultra-alpha ultra-ugly graphical installer booting on Friday09:14
=== sabdfl wonders if he scratched webcollage from the screensaver list
sabdfli think i did09:14
dokowhat about one extra question on install: this package contains materials which may be "offending" depending on your point of view. do you want to remove this materiel from you harddisk and do not install newer versions of this material?" Of course the default answer should be no.09:14
sabdflcan have some interesting consequences, that one09:15
sivangsabdfl : why don't leave the artwork as it is, and let people change it? we could author an "anti ubuntu-porn artwork" guide :)09:15
sabdflKamion: cool09:15
Kamionwebcollage> grovels through your web cache?09:15
sabdflno, it fetches random images from the web09:15
Keybukgah, Amaya really pisses me off with her continual rant about 'pornview' and how it degrades women!09:15
sabdfli think it does google searches for images based on random words09:15
Keybuk(tangents briefly)09:15
Kamionsivang: for some people it's now an issue of trust that upgrades aren't going to cause problems for them :(09:16
Kamionsabdfl: yow09:16
Kamionthat's terrifying09:16
sabdfli've seen some nasties09:16
sabdflbut the best was when i looked up and saw a pic of an astronaut mate of mine floating across the screen09:16
Kamionbah, mdz left09:16
sabdflwith her hair standing on end in zero-g09:16
sabdflsivang: i think, for everyone's nerves, we're going to have to break the golden rule and force the desktop wallpaper to be the default one, even if it says "calendar"09:17
sabdflbecause, in fact, calendar was the default, and it saying so in the user's settings means the user didn't actually change the default09:18
sabdfljust looked at it09:18
sivangi see09:19
Keybukyou can do that easily enough by changing the filename of the calendar symlink09:19
Keybukit'll go "gah! my WALLPAPER vanished" and revert to the default, fwict09:19
sivangKamion : ok, I see your point in it.09:22
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=== lamont waves
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lamontone of the questions wrt the live CD is: "What packages are part of the desktop seed, and not on the Live CD, but should be?"10:07
sivanghey lamont10:08
shlomilhi sivang 10:08
shlomillamont: what base module did you use ? 10:10
sivangshlomil : base module?10:11
sivangshlomil : what do you mean in base module ? :)10:11
shlomilthe liveCD uses Morphix , right? 10:11
lamontso the gzip futex bug showed up in apt-extracttemplates?10:12
shlomilMorphix is a modular distribution, one of the modules is defined as "basemod" 10:12
lamontshlomil: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/*.xml10:17
sivanglamont : morphix is used for the livecd right?10:18
lamontyes.  based on morphix10:20
lamontboth the basemod and the mainmod are warty based10:21
shlomilnice 10:23
amulamont: the problem is sysvinit, *noppix run their "own" init10:25
shlomillamont: did you write a script to parse the XML files and create the modules? or is it one of Morphix tools i'm not aware of? 10:26
lamontmorphix-mmaker is your friend10:26
lamontamu: what problem?10:26
KeybukI've always wondered why livecds have to be specially made -- surely a compressed filesystem and a ramdisk is sufficient?10:27
amuhwdetection, start system, run/stop programs, systemhalt there are modifications compared to a normal init  10:28
lamontamu: system halt is easy.  just log off10:28
amu... and cdeject ? 10:28
lamontKeybuk: there are other hooks for automatically doing things with the compressed chroot in strange and beautiful [?]  ways.10:29
pittiOh, hell^Whal 0.4 is out...10:29
lamonteject /dev/hdc worked fine for me here10:29
lamontthat and the *noppix init fails to install (conflicts), and there is no sysvinit-morphix package.10:30
lamontamu: of course, once you eject the CD, your days are numbered.10:30
sivanglamont : btw you got over that uninterruptable thingy that you had to reboot for?10:30
shlomillamont: so where do you put the eject command ? 10:31
lamont<lamont> Keybuk: there are other hooks for automatically doing things with the compressed chroot in strange and beautiful [?]  ways.10:31
lamontshlomil: I think it's in /usr/bin10:32
lamontjust not in the output of ls /usr/bin./10:32
lamontuntil you run it.10:32
lamontbut eject is in both the base and warthog mods, so it is probably in /usr/bin even for ls10:33
shlomillamont: no, i ment, one of Morphix problems is it doesn't eject CD after shutdown .. 10:33
amulamont: you run a normal init ?  10:33
lamontstock warty sysvinit/svsv-rc10:33
lamontwhich is why 'reboot' doesn't work, but 'reboot -f' does.10:34
shlomilreally .. hmm 10:34
amulamont: well you _must_ run a knoppix-init ;)   10:34
lamontamu: why?10:34
=== lamont wonders if it's "because you will be assimilated"..
shlomillamont: knoppix hardware detection maybe > 10:35
lamontwe use that.  considering trying to bolt our own hardware detection in post-warty10:35
lamont(there are 3 knoppix packages in the build)10:36
lamonthwdata-knoppix_0.107-8_all.deb  usleep-knoppix_0.5-1_i386.deb10:36
amuinit starts/stops programs, knoppix do it in a special way, if you cange it you get a seroiuse behavoir, some programs will not stop, some die, cdeject will not work, hwdetection will not work probably 10:36
lamontamu: I'm just doing what the nice morphix guy told me to, using his templates.10:37
amulamont: this hwsetup will _NOT_ work with a normal init  10:37
lamontamu: in other words, give me an existance proof10:37
lamontI know that morphix has solved some stuff in different ways than knoppix did, while still using those knoppix packages.10:38
amulamont: hwdetection will not work, test it, change a pci-id, in knoppix-hwdata, rerun and you'll see 10:38
amuprobably lspci informations are from the kernel 10:40
shlomillamont: oh, i see you created a bootsplash package.10:48
=== shlomil wonders why Ubuntu itself doesn't have a bootsplash yet ...
Keybukshlomil: delayed until hoary10:49
Keybukwe've gone for an entirely userspace solution to it10:49
shlomiloh, you mean , you don't want to patch the kernel  ?10:49
Keybukthe bootsplash patch only works on i386, iirc.10:50
lamontKeybuk: which means it's not a patch. :-)10:50
lamonts/patch/real patch/10:50
shlomilKeybuk: but that means you'll have some "lost" bootsplash seconds, until the kernel finishe doing it's stuff10:51
Keybukheh, it's under a second!10:51
Keybukyou know when it says "Starting Ubuntu..." at the moment?10:51
shlomilreally .. hmm 10:51
Keybukthat's when the kernel's finished and you're in the initrd10:51
Keybukall the stuff that takes time, like IDE or SCSI probing is done in initrd, remember10:52
shlomiloh, isee 10:52
Keybukthe main reason the kernel seems to take a second or two is just how slow it is to dump two or three pages of printk to the screen10:52
=== sivang is intrigged as to why people are so bothered with bootspalsh images :)
Keybuksivang: it's a bit of pretty10:52
=== Keybuk is all for pretty
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Keybukthat was going to have not-naked people on it as well10:53
Keybukimagine the outcry10:53
=== sivang is a console junky, hence his approach :)
lamontand the clueless end user is confused by all that gibberish on the screen10:53
sivangthat's right10:53
vorlonSo the userspace solution is still pending?10:53
lamontvorlon: known, demonstrated, not ready for warty freeze10:53
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lamontfreezes are such a bitch, you know.10:54
sivangthan again, you could direct all boot message to somewhere and priont "Please wait. System loading"10:54
shlomilsivang: are you kidding ? some people love it and don't want to see anything else, besides, would you really prefer endless log line over the blonde chick ? 10:54
Keybukvorlon: yeah, main problem with having conference right before a release10:54
Keybukhoaryconf will be great, because it comes right at the point we *can* develop new stuff10:54
lamontKeybuk: hell of a lot of coding was done at that conf.10:54
sivangshlomil : ooo, I get my dose of the blond chick on the wallpaper believe me :)10:55
Keybukyeah, the two weeks in oxford we had in august10:55
Keybuklamont: you don't *want* coding that close to a release 10:55
vorlonah, the conference abutted your freeze? :)10:55
Keybukyou want it at the start10:55
=== sivang would just love to see her in a more brighter light :)
lamontvorlon: the freeze was pushed out a week to accomodate the conf.. :-)10:55
lamontKeybuk: very true/10:55
vorlonheh. :)10:56
Keybukbug fixing is what you want, and that's not a good use of a conference; is better done in isolation10:56
vorlonso where in the timeline does "merging all this yummy stuff back into Debian" fall? ;)10:56
Keybukwe've sent most the yummy stuff back ?10:57
vorlonah, ok.10:57
mdzKeybuk: hmm?10:57
mdzwe've sent bugfixes back, but all of the customisation stuff needs merging10:57
mdzand the bugfixes that were sent but didn't get merged in Debian10:57
mdzshouldn't take more than, oh, the first two months of the release cycle :-P10:58
=== vorlon grins
Keybukheh, was there any reason we didn't send those back as well?10:58
=== vorlon waits for lamont's liveCD packages to make it into sid, that should be fun to play with. :-)
mdzgood question; we should send the Ubuntu branding patches upstream11:00
Keybuklol, wouldn't that be fun :p11:00
Keybukthat'd put tbm into serious bitch mode *giggle*11:00
Keybukalmost worth it11:00
sivangmdz : what about security patches from review? 11:04
sivangmdz : they also need be merged11:04
lamontvorlon: they're just the morphix packages, see www.morphix.org/debian11:04
mdzsivang: the security review involved almost entirely backports of patches from Debian or syncing of new versions from Debian11:04
mdzit is just a matter of checking that everything has been merged11:04
sivangmdz : ok11:04
pittimdz: hal 0.4 was just released, and I found a security related change in it11:05
pittimdz: http://freedesktop.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/hal/hal/hald/linux/net_class_device.c?rev=1.19&view=log11:05
pittimdz: we do not need that patch for our own purposes, so it's not overly critical11:05
pittimdz: the question is, shall we apply it anyway? Users might do custom stuff with hal11:06
pittimdz: the patch looks alright, but still it is damn near the release to change something11:06
mdzpitti: so nothing is listening to the dbus messages currently?11:06
Keybukmdz: I can probably give you a good idea what the actual differences are with a tablecloth-trick (blame jdub for the name :p) ... try a warty/hoary jump and see what falls out11:06
seb128mdz: perhaps we want #2345 fixed for warty ?11:06
mdzKeybuk: try a *what*?11:07
pittimdz: well, the utopia packages don't care for the netlink stuff11:07
mdzseb128: looks safe to me11:07
vorlonmdz: off-topic, but while I have you ... :-)  Does the kernel-patch-uml package work with kernels newer than the ones currently suggested?11:07
pittimdz: but of course user programs _can_ attach to dbus and query these attributes from hal11:07
mdzvorlon: perhaps, perhaps not11:07
seb128mdz: ok, thanks11:07
pittimdz: it's not a matter of securing Ubuntu proper, but only securing possible user installed programs11:07
vorlonHeh.  From a release standpoint, how should k-p-uml be handled?11:07
mdzvorlon: honestly?11:12
mdzit wouldn't be entirely unreasonable to remove it from sarge11:12
mdzupstream is fucked; UML hasn't worked properly on Debian for months11:12
vorlonWell, I find that pretty persuasive.11:12
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