WW_...but this is all theoretical!12:00
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inklingxgotd0t: did you edit your /etc/fstab file?12:02
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gotd0tyea i have... but i doesnt do anything12:03
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gotd0tafter doing that and then trying to access them it tells me i cant12:04
dreamcatcherhi ho, anybody experiencing problems with sleep with ubuntu on apple ibook?12:04
inklingxcan you give me the ntfs line in /etc/fstab N12:04
gotd0tive tried so many different ways, all from different websites and people12:05
Cube-nesswell, i can hit it from a browser, ui cannot figure out how to set ip up in the printer management deal12:06
Cube-nesslike the address of the printer12:06
Cube-nessit needs a borswer.. hehe12:07
Cube-nessprinter browser12:07
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fragmentHey, any hpijs gurus?12:09
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fragmentI have my local deskjet printing black only, but when I share it out the other clients try to print in color12:11
Cube-nesswhat the heck am i supposed to put as the uri on client machine that want to print via cups?12:12
fragmentI can go back to the CUPS engine, but I like the hpijs output better.12:13
fragmentCube-ness: You have to do a couple of edits to /etc/cups/cupsd.conf12:13
fragment...first :)12:13
Cube-nessfragment, i can get in via web browser12:13
fragmentLocally, or remote?12:13
fragmentOh, OK, then you have a couple of options.  Are your clients CUPS clients?12:14
Cube-nessubuntu machine as well12:14
fragmentAh, then there's a way that's a piece of cake.  If you turn on browse polling on both the client and server, it'll all just happen.12:14
Cube-nesslemme try12:15
Cube-nesswhats supposed to just happen?12:16
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fragmentUncomment 'BrowseAddress @LOCAL', 'BrowsePort 631', add 'Allow From @LOCAL' to the <Location />12:17
fragment...one more, let me look...12:17
firemouthanyone willing to help with an Ubuntu/Debian boot problem? GRUB not working.12:18
fragmentOh, yeah, and uncomment 'Port 631' and comment out 'Listen'12:18
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fragment(if you haven't already, which it sounds like you have)12:18
Bliksemhow can i adjust the icon size in gnome?12:18
mirak_firemouth, maybe re-instal grub??12:18
fragmentThen '/etc/init.d/cupsys restart'12:18
firemouthI get "GRUB loading Stage 1.5.", then "GRUB loading, please wait..." system never boots.12:19
firemouththis is on a clean install of Ubuntu or Debian network install.12:19
mirak_bliksem, i havent found a way to auto resize, but you can manually strech the size of each icon, ....er shrink12:19
fragmentOh, and comment 'Browsing Off'12:19
SamBozofragment, I can't get to a printer on an xp box .. is that what I need to do ? go in /etc/cups/cupsd.conf  and edit something?12:20
fragmentUbuntu's default CUPS config is very secure, but it makes it a bitch to use the standard CUPS browse features.12:20
fragmentSamBozo: Yep12:20
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Mitariohi everyone12:20
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mirak_hi hi12:20
Cube-nessfragment, hehe.. and the printer just appears on the clients.. heh12:20
Mitarioare there any gtk2.5 packages for ubuntu available? :)12:20
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fragmentCube-ness: Works?12:21
mirak_any wysiwyg html editors in the repository??12:21
jbroomeMitario: apt-cache search says "yes"12:22
jbroomemirak_: quanta is12:22
mirak_jbroom, is it any good?12:22
Mitariojbroome, it does?12:22
jimimirak : nvu? (dont know if it is in repo)12:23
fragmentSamBozo: I might try to put up a page on the wiki.12:23
mirak_mitario, did you enable universe???12:23
jimitry sudo apt-get install nvu12:23
mirak_jimi, nvu is not in repository12:23
jbroomemini-flood, please hold:  12:23
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mirak_jimi, its ok12:23
jbroome apt-cache search gtk2.512:23
jbroomelibwxgtk2.5 - wxWidgets Cross-platform C++ GUI toolkit (GTK+ runtime)12:23
jbroomelibwxgtk2.5-contrib - wxWidgets Cross-platform C++ GUI toolkit (runtime contrib libs)12:23
Mitariowell, i have a libgtk2.0-dev here of course, but thats 2.4.10, which is logical, 'cause it's a stable gtk release12:23
jbroomelibwxgtk2.5-contrib-dev - wxWidgets Cross-platform C++ GUI toolkit (development contrib libs)12:23
jbroomelibwxgtk2.5-dbg - wxWidgets Cross-platform C++ GUI toolkit (GTK+ development)12:23
jbroomelibwxgtk2.5-dev - wxWidgets Cross-platform C++ GUI toolkit (GTK+ development)12:23
jbroomelibwxgtk2.5-python - wxWidgets Cross-platform C++ GUI toolkit (wxPython binding)12:23
Mitarioi don't want libwxgtk12:23
Mitarioi want libtk  :)12:24
fragmentSamBozo: For you, the big thing will be to add 'Allow From @LOCAL' to the bottom of the <Location /> section of /etc/cups/cupsd.conf12:24
mirak_what is this cup stuff??12:24
fragmentSamBozo: Then '/etc/init.d/cupsys restart'12:24
fragmentSamBozo: Then you can use http://yourhostname:631/printers/yourprintername from your XP box.12:24
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fragmentSamBozo: You'll still need drivers for your printer, or go to cups.org and download the base CUPS driver for Windows.12:25
ushoozmirak_, print drivers / server. Best way to get printing working in Linux / OSX12:25
SamBozoAllow From then the ip the windows box is with the printer on it?12:26
fragmentmirak_: good CUPS information at http://www.cups.org12:26
mirak_ushooz, thnx12:26
fragmentSamBozo: Say that again?  Your Windows box has the printer attached?12:26
SamBozothe printer in on the windows box I'm trying to print to it from this ubuntu box12:26
fragmentAh, OK, then I told you just the opposite.12:27
SamBozoso start me over12:27
SamBozowait let me go back and unedit everything12:27
fragmentSamBozo: You need to go to your Control panel for Windows and add/remove windows components and install print services for UNIX.12:27
fragmentSamBozo: Then you can tell CUPS that you're printing to an LPR printer at the Windows box's IP.12:28
fragmentSamBozo: Then you should be set.12:28
SamBozouhhh I had this working from a mandrake box b4 .. so the windows box understands .. it's this ubuntu box that doesn't12:28
fragmentQueue name will be the share name of the Windows printer.12:28
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SamBozoeven a slack ware box will do it12:29
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fragmentSamBozo: You may have had it using an SMB share, which I think Mandrake does easily.  Not sure about Ubuntu.12:29
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SamBozoI think I have samba running .. so it says in the networking on here 12:30
fragmentSamBozo: Computer -> System Configuration -> Printing -> Add Printer.  You'll see the option for a Windows printer right there.12:30
fragmentSamBozo: You should be set.12:30
SamBozoalready did that12:30
SamBozoit don't work12:30
fragmentSamBozo: Check the event log on your Windows box.12:30
SamBozowhere in the event log ? which section?12:31
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fragmentRight-click on My Computer, go down to Manage, upper section, maybe the System log.12:32
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sean_ i find mplayer package?12:33
sean_that worked well12:33
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sean_What repository can i find the mplayer package?12:34
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SamBozono such animal .. I'm in the event viewer and have apps security system ans antivirus .. no entrys on any of them12:34
DXTIm currently running fglrxconfig and I'm in the question of wether should I use the external AGP GART (agpgart.o) module. Should I? (Radeon 9800 Pro)12:35
mirak_know any good 3d linux mmorpg??12:36
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thephotomanokay, so there is someone paying attention to their computer here.12:37
mirak_yes, this room is active12:37
thephotomanJust got done setting up a fresh dual-boot.12:37
Despairmirak_: planeshift.it, maybe?12:37
mirak_despair, plainshift no goo, just run around and talk12:37
Despairmirak_: Neverwinter Nights has some fairly large persistent world servers.12:37
Despairmirak_: it's not done yet. next version is supposed to have combat.12:38
moyoteWas wondering if someone could point me in the right docs direction so I can get my zip drive setup. Thanks for anytning.12:38
mirak_despair, not sure i can run that, alas, radeon 7000/ve12:38
thephotomanAnd after that nightmare (caused by Windows), I'm of the opinion that graphical installers are not necessary.12:38
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Despairmirak_: might be slow, but it should run, with s3tc patches, if the card supports s3tc.12:40
mirak_despair, planeshift...i am aware12:40
mirak_is neverwinter free????.......my credit card is maxed atm12:40
Despairmirak_: no. nwn platinum has the game and both expansions in one package, though.12:40
Despairmirak_: you might check out nethack, for a cheap rpg fix.12:40
mirak_despair, ok.i will12:40
brettcarAmerica's Army is free too, if you don't mind propaganda12:41
Despairbrettcar: that's massively less likely to be playable on a Radeon 7000, though12:43
mirak_brettcar, i def cant play america's army12:43
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moyoteAny zip help? :-))12:43
brettcarDespair: its worth a shot12:43
brettcarBZFlag will run12:43
brettcarthats fun and open source12:43
mirak_depsair, brettcar, i cant even play that on windows12:45
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baHamdoes anybody use ipod with gtkpod ?12:45
jbroomemirak_: then I think you're SOL12:45
mirak_jbroom, i meant americas army, not bzflag12:45
brettcaryou can for sure run bzflag12:45
mirak_jbroom, i can do ut and ET12:45
mirak_jbroom, i was just looking for a mmorpg12:45
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jbroomeNWN will run on linux12:46
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SamBozoI need help samba is running I can see the shares on the windows boxes from my ubuntu box ..BUT when I try to print to the printer on the windows box I get "Printing: Unable to connect to SAMBA host, will retry in 60 seconds...ESP Ghostscript 7.07 (2003-07-12)"01:01
SamBozo"Unable to connect to SAMBA host, will retry in 60 seconds...ERROR: Connection failed with error NT_STATUS_BAD_NETWORK_NAME"01:02
SamBozoDevice URI: smb:// HL-144001:02
SamBozois the error seen on the cups browser page01:02
SamBozothe work group name must be correct I can see the shares ?????01:03
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Cube-nesshmm.. this is weird.. on my moms computer, a 1.3ghz celeron, grip rips from audio from the cdrom many times faster than my 2.8ghz p4..both have 52x cdroms01:12
Cube-nessofcourse mine encodes faster...01:12
Cube-nessbut mine is only riping at like 2x01:13
Cube-nessmaybe a dma issue?01:13
Cube-nessmine has sata hd.. so maybe dma didnt get set for the cdrom?01:13
Cube-nessah.. yep.. dma is off01:14
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Cube-nesshow do i turn on dma for my cd drives?01:20
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pills_how can i specify certain programs to start when gnome starts?01:21
joemcomputer -> desktop prefs -> sessions01:21
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Cube-ness setting using_dma to 1 (on)01:24
Cube-ness HDIO_SET_DMA failed: Operation not permitted01:24
Cube-ness using_dma    =  0 (off)01:24
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joemCube-ness, by anychance are you loading the ide-generic driver before the chipset driver?01:25
Cube-nessi dunno01:26
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joemyou know the name of your chipset module?01:26
joemor what sort of chipset, maybe somebody else in here knows the module name for it01:26
Cube-nessi see the ide0generic in lsmod01:27
Cube-nessi load piix for my sata01:27
joemok, in /etc/modules..add piix before ide-generic01:28
joemI had to do the same thing, same dma problem01:28
Cube-nesswell, i had to manually load the piix when i installed.. it load by default now.. not in modules.conf01:29
joemadd it to /etc/modules to make sure it gets loaded before ide-generic does 01:29
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mirak_how to play dvd's?????01:42
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joemread the wiki01:42
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mirak_umm...link to the wiki???01:43
joemchan topics are also helpful01:43
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phinreading involves to much work01:44
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BeanDipphin, what the hell are you doing here01:48
phinwhat do you mean?01:49
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BeanDipyou the same phin I know from #linuxwarez?01:49
phinwhats up?01:49
BeanDipyou fugger01:49
BeanDipget back in your box01:49
phini finally got sc3k running01:49
BeanDipjust playing with ubuntu on a laptop01:50
phinits about as slow as running it under wine01:50
BeanDipphin you ever play with scummvm01:50
phinwhat is that?01:50
BeanDipplay some real games you bitch01:50
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phingames bore me usually01:50
phini play sims01:50
BeanDipscummvm is an emulator that plays old lucal arts scripting language based games like Maniac Mansion, Loom ,Sam 'n Max, The Dig, Broken Sword01:51
BeanDipreal game01:51
BeanDipadventure games01:51
phini do like adventure games01:51
phinlooking into it now01:52
wm_eddieWhen I'm browsing a menu I can't turn up the volume with me keyboard.01:52
wm_eddieI never noticed.01:52
phinis it that big of a deal?01:52
wm_eddieWell It doesn't happen often but it did just now.01:53
BeanDipdo an "apt-get scummvm beneath-a-steel-sky flight-of-the-amazon-queen"01:53
BeanDipgreat games01:53
BeanDipand I can send you others01:53
phinsounds good01:54
phini just bookmarked it01:54
BeanDipcheck out http://www.scummvm.org01:54
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wm_eddieUniversity of Washington research this March published a moderate estimate of 5.1% PCs running spyware."01:54
wm_eddieLOL yeah right!01:54
wm_eddieI'd say 99%01:54
phinya i say alot more01:55
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theantixmaybe they don't count adware as spyware01:56
aitrusanyone know why when i say "update-rc.d hdparm defaults" it tells me that system start links already exist when they don't?01:56
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aitrusahhh... it's in rcS.d02:00
wm_eddieI have to learn how rc*.d works one day.02:01
wm_eddieEspecially for my laptop, if I do console only, I can get 3 hours of battery life.02:01
wm_eddieAhh, why is there no unrar in universe?02:02
gotd0tcan anybody help me get my sound working?02:02
gotd0ti have an audigy02:02
wm_eddieI know it sucks, but ... sometimes you just can't avoid it.02:02
bronsonwm_eddie: because it's decidedly non-free.02:03
bronson# deb http://debian.jones.dk sid misc02:03
bronsonThat's where I got mine.02:03
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BeanDipgotd0t: easy02:03
BeanDipyou need to modprobe the following modules and add them to your /etc/modules   snd-emu10k1 snd-enu10k1-gp snd-emu10k1-synth snd-seq-oss snd-pcm-oss snd-mixer-oss02:03
BeanDipgotd0t: does that answer your question?02:04
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Maisanyone have any idea why the alsa libraries would give me a configure: error: C++ preprocessor "/lib/cpp" fails sanity check02:06
Maiser on a dot slash configure02:07
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lifelessMais: have you installed the C++ compiler? 02:09
Maisgcc (GCC) 3.3.4 (Debian 1:3.3.4-9ubuntu5)02:10
wm_eddieMais: and have you installed build-essentials?02:10
Maisive installed the driver portion of Alsa already and it worked just fine02:10
Maiseddie: thanks, i think that will do the trick02:12
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Bentleydo i risk damaging my ubuntu install if I use apt-get repositories other than the ubuntu ones?02:21
dickmorrellBentley, I have about 8 other repositories02:23
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dickmorrelllisted in my apt sources02:23
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Bentleythx dick - just making sure02:23
dickmorrellno probs02:24
BeanDipdickmorrell: what repositories are you using?02:24
dickmorrellallsorts mainly sourced from Bruce Benson of Debian Planet02:25
dickmorrellsome public some private02:25
WW_Did the format of sources.list change from the wart preview to the release candidate?02:25
lifelessWW_: no, sources.list is the standard format02:25
dickmorrellftp://ftp.nerim.net/debian-marillat/ unstable main02:25
Bentleyi notice the ubuntu repositories are lacking common (IMHO) things. .. like mysql-dev and openssl-dev02:25
phinthe format should be the same02:26
dickmorrelland universal will cover most needs02:26
dickmorrelluniverse even - tired apologies02:26
WW_By "format", I mean did any repository entries change from a single line (e.g. main restricted) to two lines (one for main, one for restrictd)?02:27
dickmorrellnot that I am aware02:27
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WW_Same question for cupsd.conf... has this file been tweaked between preview and release candidate?02:29
dickmorrelltry doing a diff02:29
daedelusdoes ubuntu have apt-get?02:29
dickmorrellits far less lazy02:29
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dickmorrelldaedelus, yep02:30
daedelusok cool02:30
WW_dickmorrell: How can I get the RC versions?02:30
daedeluswill be installing ubuntu then02:30
dickmorrelltry the old iso versions02:30
dickmorrellwhats your prob with cups02:31
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toyowheelinis smb4k availible to ubuntu?02:31
SamBozohi dickmorrell long time .. from the smoothie days .. gud to see u02:32
dickmorrellits not in any of the repositories toyowheelin02:32
dickmorrellyou can compile from sources on samba.org02:32
dickmorrellits a no brainer02:32
toyowheelinthats too bad 02:32
dickmorrellSamBozo, hello02:32
toyowheelinyeak I will02:32
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dickmorrelldeb ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/smb4k/unsupported/Debian/stable/ ./02:33
dickmorrelltoyowheelin, build from there02:33
dickmorrelljust apt-get install it02:33
SamBozospeaking of cups and samba <g> samba is working on my ubuntu .. I can see shares but I get an error when I try to print to the xp boxes printer .. will get the error, just a sec02:34
toyowheelinumm ok, just d/l it and than do apt-get install smb4k from the dir that its in?02:34
dickmorrellsudo apt-get install02:34
dickmorrelleverything else taken care of02:34
toyowheelinok thanks02:34
dickmorrellor add that rep url to synaptic02:34
dickmorrelland update sources02:35
SamBozo"Unable to connect to SAMBA host, will retry in 60 seconds...ERROR: Connection failed with error NT_STATUS_BAD_NETWORK_NAME" 02:35
dickmorrellpeople still run Windows ?02:35
SamBozonot by choice02:35
dickmorrellI got given an XP box 2k worth of new laptop02:35
dickmorrell2 months ago at work02:35
dickmorrellI get in everyday and ctrl alt del to screensaver02:35
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dickmorrelland then boot up two linux lappies02:35
dickmorrellI dont think I've ever used the XP thinkpad02:36
dickmorrellno tell a lie I did use it to balance a sandwich wrapper02:36
SamBozohehehe gud usage02:36
SamBozoand the ansrwe to my ? would be?   ... drum roll ...02:37
SamBozothat's the error I cee on the cups page here on the ubunto box02:37
SamBozodamn getting late spelling is worse than normal02:38
dickmorrelldude google is your friend02:39
dickmorrellI dont use samba02:39
SamBozoI did that ..02:39
dickmorrellnfs is my friend02:39
dickmorrelltry looking up Dan Shearer on Samba team02:39
dickmorrellyou'll find his email on samba page02:39
dickmorrellmail him02:39
dickmorrellhe wrote the print extensions for smb02:39
dickmorrellsay I sent you 02:39
SamBozohmm but if i can see the shares what's the error talking about ..02:39
dickmorrellread above02:39
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dickmorrelldo you have your smb.conf set locally02:40
dickmorrellwith the same network name02:40
dickmorrellas your host workgroup ?02:40
dickmorrelland then smbclient using said above .conf02:40
SamBozoyes or the shares wouldn't work02:40
dickmorrellthats what I thought02:40
SamBozothe deal is printing to the xp box worked when mandrake was installed so I know thet end is fine02:41
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SamBozoand a slack box can print to it02:41
BeanDipanyone ever setup pdf printer under gnome before want to give a quick howto02:41
dickmorrellBeandip you new to Linux02:42
BeanDipnot at all02:42
BeanDipI just never fucked with printing to pdf02:42
dickmorrellopen openoffice02:42
dickmorrellor abiword02:42
toyowheelindickmorrell, its not installing02:42
dickmorrellor whatever you want to print02:42
dickmorrelltoyowheelin, google is your friend02:43
dickmorrellOpenOffice has Pdf printing built in02:43
dickmorrellfor screen / print / media02:43
BeanDipdickmorrell: I have a client who wants to have a systemwide pdf printer running under cups using the cups-pdf package02:43
dickmorrellAcrobat 6 onwards compatible02:43
dickmorrellok 02:43
BeanDipI know how to set it up on a per-app basis02:43
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BeanDipjust not systemwide with cups02:43
dickmorrellwhat server ?02:43
BeanDipI just installed the cups-pdf package02:44
dickmorrellno 02:44
dickmorrellwhat os02:44
dickmorrellUbuntu as server ?02:44
dickmorrelland client02:44
dickmorrellor Win boxes printing to Ubuntu as network smb pdf02:45
BeanDipall *nix network02:45
dickmorrellor http://cip.physik.uni-wuerzburg.de/~vrbehr/cups-pdf/02:46
BeanDipkde has it built into their kprinter sytem, but this cat doesn't do KDE, e balked at the suggestion and wants to stick to gnome and CDE02:46
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dickmorrellcde oh safe 02:46
dickmorrellread second url02:46
dickmorrelljust in case..02:46
dickmorrellI get amazed when I see how many of my Solaris sysadmins migrate from CDE to Gnome02:47
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daedeluswhat boot loader does ubuntu use by default?02:50
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sladendaedelus: grub02:50
daedelusi hate grub02:51
gotd0tdoes anybody know of any linux versions of ActiveSync for PPC's?02:51
sladendaedelus: apt-get install lilo02:51
daedelusyea i know..02:51
sladengotd0t: sounds like a Microsoft product from Googling02:52
sladengotd0t: do you mean ActiveSync, or something compatible/similar02:52
sladengotd0t: perhaps try  synce or Multisync02:53
dickmorrellhe means to tie02:53
dickmorrellin a piece of shit PDA02:53
dickmorrelllike I have three of02:53
dickmorrellsat there doing squat02:53
dickmorrellhence Sharp Zaurus now :)02:53
dickmorrellthree new HP and Toshiba Pocket PC2003s now sat redundant02:53
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dickmorrelland may the force be with you02:54
dickmorrellyou'll need it02:54
moyogohi there02:54
moyogoi'm having problems using some autogen.sh02:54
sladendickmorrell: mail them to me;  then I can run Debian on them!  :)02:54
moyogocc1plus cannot be found, is it in any ubuntu package?02:55
sladenmoyogo: apt-get install build-essential02:55
moyogosladen: thanks02:55
richnrockvillemdIs there a version of Pine for Ubuntu?02:55
dickmorrellsladen: no thanks I use them to sniff out02:55
dickmorrellwireless APs on the move02:55
dickmorrellonly thing they're useful for02:56
dickmorrellespecially the e74002:56
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sladenrichnrockvillemd: Pine has licensing issues.  It's probabl .... [oh well] 02:56
dickmorrelljust go 02:57
dickmorrellor use Mutt :)02:58
dickmorrellyou might be able to source a Sarg or unstable build02:58
dickmorrellthat is newer02:58
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BeanDipI've noticed that recently k3b is reporting that my dvd+r/+rw on my desktop and the cdr/rw/dvd combo drive in my laptop don't write cds and it only allows me to write cdrw or dvd+r/+rw03:04
BeanDipis this a knownbug?03:04
BeanDipanyone else have the same issue?03:04
BeanDipI can still burn from the command line03:04
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dickmorrellBeanDip, not used cd burning at all under Ubuntu 03:05
dickmorrellhave only installed experimental laptops and one desktop03:05
dickmorrellI use CentOS with k3b on main wkstn with no issues03:05
dickmorrelland that is latest build of k3b03:05
dickmorrellwrites cdr+cdrw03:06
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GOwinhi all. i'm having problems with an ubuntu installation. the grub installation fails and i now can't boot my laptop03:08
BeanDipdickmorrell: How do you like centos?03:08
dickmorrellGOwin, what lappy03:12
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GOwinan ibm 130003:16
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dickmorrellGOwin, I use 03:16
dickmorrelltwo A20ms a 240, 600e, X20 and T2003:17
FireRabbithow can I add the debian experimental repository to ubuntu (or is this incompatible)?03:17
dickmorrellall with Ubuntu happily03:17
dickmorrellall thinkpads03:17
dickmorrellFireRabbit, which repository ?03:17
jdubFireRabbit: strongly discouraged03:17
dickmorrellfind the url and add it to apt sources AT YOUR PERIL03:17
jdubFireRabbit: if you have to use something from experimental, better to build it from source packages03:17
FireRabbitdickmorrell, i was looking at http://packages.debian.org/experimental/03:17
FireRabbitjdub, yeah?03:17
jdubFireRabbit: what do you need it for?03:17
dickmorrellyou're either brave or... misadvised03:18
FireRabbitfirefox and a few other things03:18
FireRabbitdickmorrell, i'm not farmiliar with ubuntu or debian03:18
dickmorrellFireRabbit, latest Ubuntu has a more stable version of firefox03:18
jdubFireRabbit: probably best to stick with the current, supported packages where you can03:18
FireRabbitdickmorrell, well, I want the new 0.1003:18
jdubFireRabbit: we were using 0.10, but reverted; it's quite unstable03:19
Oolongwhy?   I didnt see anything better about it before they backed it down03:19
FireRabbitI'm using it here on a non ubuntu system and it's never crashed once03:19
dickmorrellyep the reverted version is much more stable03:19
dickmorrellless javascript grief03:19
dickmorrellOolong, did you test it ??03:19
dickmorrellit was borked..03:19
dickmorrelljavascript hell.. it was just trash03:19
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OolongI didnt have any problems with firefox before or after the reverted03:20
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ShadowHawkThere doesn't appear to be a rar package - how do I unrar a .rar file?  (apt-get install rar says certain packages point to it, but it's not there.  For example, ark suggests rar)03:20
jdubShadowHawk: rar is in multiverse, i think03:20
Oolongbut really dont see any need to go setting up .10 before they add it back to the repository03:21
GOwinactually, i've used ubuntu on it before. now, it won't install any linux distro at all. issue with mbr?03:21
ShadowHawkjdub: You mean universe?03:21
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jdubShadowHawk: no, multiverse :)03:21
crimsunShadowHawk: it's a faq.03:21
crimsunplease see the faq on the wiki :)03:21
jdubShadowHawk: universe == debian main, multiverse == contrib+non-free+otherstuff03:21
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jonohi all03:21
dickmorrellGOwin, could be - try booting floppy and fdisk /mbr03:21
dickmorrelland see how you get on03:22
jonowhat do I need to get DVD support going03:22
jonodickmorrell, yo dick :)03:22
dickmorrelljono hellooo03:22
dickmorrellcant sleep03:22
jdubtotem-xine + libdvdcss203:22
crimsunjono: also a faq, please see its section on the wiki.03:22
ShadowHawkRar's not free?03:22
jdubShadowHawk: nup03:22
dickmorrelljono if you want dvd stuff msg me03:22
ShadowHawkapt-get install ubuntu03:23
sladenjono: uncomment   main/illegal  in sources.list ;-)03:24
jonowhere is libdvdcss2?03:25
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jdubon the vlc site, among other places03:25
jonoahhh ok03:25
dickmorrelljono see faq url03:26
ShadowHawkWe should put a "Have you checked the FAQ?" bot03:26
dickmorrelllast person you ever want to teach to suck03:26
dickmorrelleggs is Jono B03:26
dickmorrellhe'll come round your house, shave your ass03:26
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dickmorrelland then stick a guitar up it03:27
dickmorrellin the presence of royalty its custom to bow03:27
danielsdickmorrell: massively off-topic -- please take it to #offtopic03:27
FireRabbitdoes totem segfault for everyone if you try to play an mp3 with gstreamer set to use ALSA or should I submit a bug report?03:29
GOwinare there no equivalent fdisk /mbr in live linux cds?03:30
dickmorrellFireRabbit, best thing is to remove Totem and put Xine on03:30
SamBozoI can't believe you have to go to universal to find mc for installation....03:30
dickmorrellTotem is cool but Xine rocks - realise its heavier03:30
dickmorrellgxine is in Universe as is Xine03:30
dickmorrellyou'll need libdvdnav and libdvdcss203:31
FireRabbitdickmorrell, well it's working fine with OSS, its not a problem right now i am just wondering03:31
Despairdickmorrell: and switch to something other than metacity, so that it doesn't lock up with xine-ui's menus 03:31
jdubjust use totem-xine03:31
FireRabbitjdub, yeah I saw that package, just wondering03:31
jdubFireRabbit: generally, leave things set to use OSS emulation03:32
dickmorrellDespair, true03:32
Despairmetacity is one broken wm, switch to something else and save on the weird surprises. I've seen so many bugs in it related to incorrect window hint handling...03:32
FireRabbitjdub, well on this  system i am typing on (which isnt running ubuntu or debian) I have all of oss disabled :)03:32
ShadowHawkSamBozo: I agree.  MC should practically replace Nano in the installer even.03:33
jdubFireRabbit: we use the alsa kernel drivers by default, but use oss emulation from userland, because it's far more reliable than current direct use of the alsa libraries.03:34
dickmorrelljdub is spot on03:35
FireRabbitjdub, understood03:35
jonois there a gconf tutorial?03:35
jonothere must be some cool things you can do with gconf03:35
jdubjono: developer or user?03:35
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jonojdub, user - funky things to configure the desktop etc03:35
jdubhttp://www.gnome.org/projects/gconf/ and http://www.gnome.org/learn/ (see the admin guide)03:35
pills_is there a way to copy folders and files that start with a '.', cp isnt cutting it (it copies '..' as well)03:36
jdubpills_: cp .??* 03:36
brettcarcp \.filename03:36
brettcarof course03:37
jdubyou don't need the escape03:37
brettcarcp -r .folder other-folder03:37
brettcarshuch just work fine03:37
jduband it won't help you if you want to copy multiple files :)03:37
pills_yeah im trying to copy multiple files/dirs03:37
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pills_jdub: cp .??*03:37
pills_ok ill try that03:37
pills_wut about removing files? same thing?03:38
jdubthat matches dot, any one character, any one character, any number of characters03:38
jdubthus skipping ..03:38
jonojdub, I am not seeing an admin section - am I blind?03:39
maswanjdub: unfortunately, that won't catch .X/03:40
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pills_tnx jdub..restart time03:40
FireRabbitcan you do something like cp .[!.] *03:41
jonojdub, got it now :)03:41
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mjg59jono: gconf is mostly self-documenting, though not well indexed03:43
dickmorrellguys I'm getting hassle from Dan Stone03:43
dickmorrellhead wedged firmly up his ass03:43
dickmorrellfor mentioning guitar up ass03:43
mjg59dickmorrell: Insulting developers is not a good way of making friends03:43
dickmorrellafter 14 mins of getting lectured03:43
dickmorrellam off to wrok03:43
dickmorrellmjg59 no-one insulted anyone03:44
dickmorrellit was called humour03:44
mjg59dickmorrell: <dickmorrell> head wedged firmly up his ass03:44
dickmorrellis called humour03:44
mjg59It's not obviously humour of any classical description03:44
dickmorrellyou should hang out in kernel.org03:44
mjg59Certainly not classical British humour03:44
dickmorrelllol on that note I need to finish an article03:44
mjg59Are you really laughing?03:45
dickmorrellyes 03:45
mjg59Actually, no. I do apologise for that.03:45
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jonomjg59, no worries03:49
danielsjono: 'evening03:50
jonodaniels, heya buddy03:50
mjg59jono: The best way to find cool stuff in gconf is to check the descriptions of the various entries. Undocumented stuff is theoretically buggy.03:51
mjg59But for the most part, there's not a huge amount of gconf stuff that's both useful and not exposed in the GUI03:51
jonoyeah, thats what I am interested in03:51
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jonoany interesting stuff spring to mind?03:51
mjg59The only thing I've changed is middle click to open new URL in epiphany03:52
mjg59I think the default is to use that for scrolling03:52
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mjg59Oh, strictly speaking I've used it to get GTK to use the Beagle backend rather than the gnome-vfs backend, but that's not likely to work for most people :)03:55
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jdubthere's a 'gnome hacks' site03:56
jonoanything else cool with gconf?03:56
jdubwhich is more a list of random crack03:56
jdubjono: gconf just stores settings. it's not designed to be cool.03:56
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jdubthe 2.8 version includes search03:57
jonojdub, heh03:57
jdubversion of gconf-editor03:57
mjg59jono: Seriously, the primary purpose of gconf-editor is to let people set default settings for users03:57
mjg59It's not like the Windows registry - we don't hide everything you need to actually use the OS in there :)03:58
wm_eddieAnybody here know how to make a program written in pygtk catch XF86Audio events?03:58
jdubguessing time!03:59
mjg59jdub: I love guessing time!03:59
jdubeverybody... guess how many subscribers are on ubuntu-announce!03:59
vorlonwm_eddie: the XF86Audio keypress events?03:59
wm_eddieMultimedia keys03:59
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jonothis is why gconf is good, often used options are in the desktop, lesser used stuff in gconf03:59
wm_eddielike "XF86XK_play"04:00
Zindarjdub: 2438 ?04:00
jdubjono: that's said quite a bit, but it's not really true04:00
vorlonwm_eddie: assuming those key events are bound to the keys correctly, it should be just like catching any other key.04:00
jdubZindar: lower04:00
mjg59jdub: 16,000,00004:00
jonojdub, how so?04:00
jdubaitrus: higher (spank)04:00
maswanZindar: not in sweden, I guess?04:00
wm_eddievorlon: I can't find any documentation on it on google.04:00
jdubjono: stuff that is in gconf that is not in the ui is the exception to the rule. it's not a design choice that they should be there.04:00
Zindarmaswan, no.. sydney04:00
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jdubjono: more often than not, what's in the ui is in gconf.04:01
wm_eddievorlon: And I looked at what Muine does to make it happen...04:01
maswanZindar: ah, good.. ehmm.. afternoon? :)04:01
vorlonwm_eddie: but if you mean that you want to bind to the key event globally, I personally have no idea how to do that from pygtk.04:01
Zindarmaswan, about lunch04:01
jdubZindar: ah, erik :)04:01
jonojdub, yeah, but there is still a filtering process in which options are mapped to typical user needs - this does not happen in KDE for example04:01
maswanZindar: ah, close enough. :)04:01
Zindarjdub, yeah :)04:01
jdubjono: that generally doesn't involve gconf though04:01
maswanjdub: old umu.se:ian :)04:02
mjg59jono: Sure, there's a small number of things that are configurable that aren't exposed to the UI. In most cases, in an ideal world they wouldn't be configurable :)04:02
jdubcool :)04:02
wm_eddiethat's how muine does it.04:02
wm_eddieand then it has mmkey.cs in the src directory to connect it to the GUI...04:02
Zindarjdub: so.. how many04:03
jonoI thought gconf was a means to configure settings and not put them in the main UI, maybeI got this wrong :P04:03
mjg59Incidentally, did I mention how cool beagle is?04:03
jdubZindar: lower than your guess :)04:03
Zindarmaswan, what are you doing up?04:03
Zindarjdub, you said so... 243?04:03
jdubjono: lots of people get that wrong04:03
jdubjono: gconf is the storage and notification mechanism for settings04:03
vorlonjdub: including lots of software authors, bleh.04:03
maswanZindar: broking sleeping pattern together with an early flight to lcsc04:04
mjg59jdub: Less than 16,000,000?04:04
jdubmjg59: yes. spank.04:04
Se7hhey to all04:04
jonojdub, ahhh, I see04:04
maswanZindar: linux clusters for super computing or something like that, conference in linkping04:05
jdubjono: see CoG and gTweakUI for some settings that are not exposed by the gnome ui04:05
Zindarmaswan, ahh.. you're going to that one.. I was there a few years ago... like.. three04:05
Dekkardanyewhere you can find a tutorial for making ubuntu .debs?04:05
jdubDekkard: debian.org -> see the new maintainer guide04:05
jonojdub, cool :)04:05
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jonojdub, oh, good work on ubuntu recently by the way, you guys are doing a great job :)04:06
Dekkardthanks jdub04:06
Dekkardyes good job 04:06
Zindaryeah... ubuntu really really rocks...  :)04:06
danielsjono: thanks dude04:06
danielsmjg59: 16 million?04:07
maswanjdub: hmm.. 15000000?04:07
=== jdub spanks maswan
mjg59daniels: If I think big all the time, I am disappointed all the time. As a result, I am used to disappointment and rarely feel unhappy.04:07
jonoits a really great distro04:07
danielsmjg59: your LiveJournal disagrees with you04:08
mjg59daniels: Anger does not imply unhappiness04:08
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maswanjdub: so.. higher or lower?04:09
danielsmjg59: fair enough04:09
jdublower, silly :)04:09
=== maswan ponders
=== maswan thinks hard
maswanjdub: 14500000?04:10
wm_eddieMan this is incredibly complicated.04:10
danielsis this like 'guess how many jellybeans in the jar'?  and do I win a car if I get it right?04:10
Zindarmaswan, wasn't it less that 2438 ? :)04:10
=== maswan takes 2 steps back, out of range from jdub's spanking power
mjg59Would an Ubuntu car include a free scantily clad woman?04:10
vorlondaniels: no, you win artwork of... damn, mjg59 was faster.04:11
maswanZindar: oh. missed that bit then.04:11
danielsoh man04:11
jdubPWC Re-Added With Binary Driver Reverse-Engineered04:11
jdub^ oooh!04:11
maswanwell, 1300?04:12
mjg59jdub: Dude, you are so a month ago04:12
vorlonjdub: 1024.04:12
mjg59And tell us the number, goddamnit04:12
jdubKT is pretty slow these days :|04:12
jdubmaswan, vorlon: higher!04:12
maswanoh, right, I have a real reason to be here these days04:12
maswanjdub: 1924?04:12
vorlonjdub: 2048!04:12
maswanI run ubuntu on the laptop. I forgot, being comfortable with the usual fvwm install from universe. :)04:13
jdubboth lower04:13
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maswanjdub: 1600?04:13
jdubooh, i goofed up04:13
jdubmaswan's earlier was lower04:13
jdubit's 129704:13
maswanah, I was pretty close then. :)04:14
jdubi think we can do better than that for our announce list04:14
Zindarthat was going to be my next guess :)04:14
vorlonright, everybody gets to spank jdub for that one.04:14
=== maswan spanks jdub
jdubusers is only a little bit lower04:14
mjg59vorlon: I give up my right to spank jdub in order to provide you with more spanking04:14
jdubthese spankings are non-transferrable04:15
mjg59jdub: I wish to transfer my spanking04:15
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=== vorlon wiggles tauntingly at mjg59.
mjg59Are you saying that I have been misled over the provision of service?04:15
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jdubmmmmm, service04:15
mjg59I desperately need to pre-order GTA: San Andreas04:16
=== maswan transfers his servicing of jdub to mjg59
mjg59jdub: You're getting married soon. You're not allowed to fantasise about service.04:16
=== Zindar thinks it's time for a ubuntu-artwork-mailinglist
danielsjdub: ubuntu-users subscribers?04:17
mjg59Zindar: I find your ideas intruiging and wish to subscribe to your newsletter04:17
danielsjdub: what's the 1297 figure?04:17
jdubthey're very close04:17
danielsoh, u-a04:17
harfoozhi all. I'm new to ubuntu coming from fc2, and need to install latex2html on my desktop. But I read that one should not mix debian and ubuntu packages, so I'm worried that I would screw up my system. What is the proper way to install a package that I can't find on my ubuntu synaptic (even with the unverse repo's checked)?04:19
Zindarmjg59? que? :)04:20
maswanZindar: I suspect he's just looking for HOT ARTWORK PIX!1!!04:20
Zindarmaswan, hehe :)04:21
vorlonharfooz: have you tried hevea?  latex2html is only available from Debian's non-free archive.04:21
harfoozvorlon: no I haven't, but will google for it to learn more about it -- does it accomplish the same task as latex2html?04:22
vorlonharfooz: all of the Debian packages that previously used latex2html have been ported to use hevea now, with moderate amount of effort.04:22
harfoozvorlon: did something bad happen with latex2html? it's been around a while, thought.04:23
Ninjas-Rezatmanyone listen to GamingFM?04:23
mjg59(because we care)04:23
vorlonharfooz: <shrug> there were license provisions that didn't meet the DFSG, I don't remember the exact details.04:23
harfoozso are there any people who use ubuntu to get x config'd and then somehow "transform" their ubuntu system into a debian system? 04:25
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harfoozthere are some folks who do that with libranet: take a libranet installation and basically make it into an all-sid system.04:26
jdubsounds like crack to me04:26
jdubepotash: btw, i think i have a solution for you04:27
epotashi have debian woody running on a laptop with no cd rom, how can i do a net install of ubuntu04:27
epotashwhat is that04:27
jdubepotash: you can upgrade your minimal woody to ubuntu fairly easily04:27
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jdub^ grab the sources.list bits from there04:27
jdubdo an apt-get update04:27
jdubthe apt-get install ubuntu-desktop04:28
epotashwill it be the same as installing ubuntu fresh?04:28
maswanepotash: there are ubuntu netboot images around04:28
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jdubepotash: and read http://wiki.ubuntu.com/WartyWarthog_2fUpgradeNotes04:28
jdubepotash: with the above notes, you can get it there04:28
maswanepotash: that's how I installed the machine I'm currently typing on. :)04:28
Zindarmaswan, are you running ubuntu yet or are you still a wannabe? :)04:28
Zindarand that answered that question :)04:29
maswanZindar: I did on this laptop, I'm unpure though since I use fvwm and not this fancy "gnome" stuff. ;)04:29
epotashmaswan, where are the netboot images04:29
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maswanepotash: one warning first, have you setup netboot for the debian-installer or similar?04:30
Zindarmaswan, I haven't been using fvwm since '9904:30
epotashi did it for debian, yes04:30
maswanwell then, there they are04:30
epotashwhats the warning?04:30
maswanwell, if you have no clue about doing netinstalls, I don't have time for handholding now. I have to go shower and catch a flight04:31
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maswanthe debian-installer docs should have a section on pxeboot.cfg stuff that should be pretty identical to ubuntu04:32
epotashwell, thank you04:32
=== maswan waves and heads off to that shower
jdubepotash: upgrading your current install might be simpler :)04:32
epotashyeah, i am probably going to try that first04:32
epotashin fact, im not going to do any of this now, i need to install java and set up an app to present in school tommorow04:33
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Zindarnah... lunch04:44
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censoredranyone know what you do to recreate your home directory after accidently deleting it.  I just want to get it back to the default setting with out reinstalling the whole distro.04:46
cianid3mkdir /home/yourname04:46
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cianid3after that04:47
cianid3chown yourname:users /home/yourname04:47
cianid3do that as root04:47
cianid3wait you use ubuntu04:47
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cianid3did you set a root password?04:47
censoredrYeah.  I recreated the director but I get errors because files are missing.04:48
brettcarcouldn't you just boot with init=/bin/sh04:48
cianid3you need to change the owner of the directory04:48
cianid3so that user can write to it04:48
censoredrI did that but I'm missing the default files04:49
cianid3you don't need "defualt files"04:49
cianid3it will recreate them04:49
speelwhen is the release going to be a final?04:49
Dethread20th or something04:49
cianid3sometime next week04:49
censoredrSo it normal not to have any desktop icons or start menu like thing?04:49
Dethreadyes, that's normal04:50
cianid3censor: it will recreate the files04:50
cianid3if you will listen04:50
speelah ok thanks ;)04:50
cianid3and type the command i told you04:50
cianid3all will be fine04:50
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speelany one knows if they will change anything?04:53
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Dethreadnothing major04:53
toyowheelinhello all04:53
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Dethreadhello toyowheelin04:53
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toyowheelinI just made a discovery04:53
Dethreadtoyowheelin, that's great04:54
toyowheelinmy processor speed turns up and down depending on workload04:55
Dethreadit's called speed-stepping04:55
toyowheelinoh well I was worried for a while because my cpuinfo said 999MHz04:56
thullyYou can monitor it by adding a clock speed indicator to the GNOME panel04:56
toyowheelinand my processor is a 2.4GHz04:56
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toyowheelinand today I was compiling something and did a cat /proc/cpuinfo and it saud 239904:57
thullyWell - the companies round up their speeds04:57
toyowheelinI was happy it wasnt at 1GHz04:57
danielsi've had my laptop run at a terahertz before04:58
danielsaccording to cpufreq04:58
mjg59daniels: This is, uh, not strictly true04:58
mjg59Heh :)04:58
toyowheelinlol RIIIIIGGGGHHHT04:58
danielsmjg59: hey man, did you *feel* how hot that thing got?04:58
toyowheelinbust out the liquid nitrogen04:58
thullyMy laptop gets kind of hot using APM - should I be worried04:59
Dethreaduse ACPI 04:59
danielsuse acpi, yah04:59
thullyI can't04:59
thullyMy system uses 10% of the battery per hour in sleep in ACPI04:59
thullyIn APM, it uses like 1% per hour04:59
mjg59thully: Thinkpad of some description?05:01
toyowheelinin cpuinfo what dose it mean under power management: ts fid vid ttp05:01
mjg59Mm. The T series seem to do that. Nobody is sure why, yet.05:01
thullyIs using APM OK?05:01
mjg59If APM works, it's no problem05:02
mjg592.6 tends ot be worse for APM than 2.4 did05:02
mjg59Most modern laptops don't support APM, though05:02
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sean_can anyone tell me how to install java?05:02
thullyI have to use 2.6 because of the centrino wi-fi05:02
mjg59thully: I wouldn't worry too much about the heat as long as it's not actively burning you :)05:03
thullyIs there any other solution?  I want the increased battery life of ACPI+SpeedStep+laptop_mode05:04
sean_Can anyone tell me how to install java?05:06
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calcmjg59: hmm ibm needs some more linux people working on their laptops ;)05:10
danielscalc: lots of people work on the x40, it seems05:10
thullyThe funny thing is: I've never seen this problem mentioned online05:10
mjg59thully: It's been discussed on linux-kernel05:11
mjg59I don't think anyone has found a solution yet05:11
=== calc trades daniels his amd64 laptop for the x40 ;)
mjg59calc: Heh. There's some people from ibm.com on acpi-devel now05:11
sean_Can anyone tell me how to install java?05:11
sean_Ive tried everything05:12
sean_except the right way obviuously05:12
mjg59sean_: http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/Java is probably helpful05:13
sean_THANK YOU !!!!!05:15
calchmm ibm t42p would be nice too05:16
thullyDoes is cause many problems w/Ubuntu to recompile the kernel?05:16
thullyAlso, does suspend-to-disk work on the T42 to anyone's knowledge05:17
=== maswan ponders making that trade with calc and buying a new one :)
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ushoozthully, I still need to get suspend working on my lappy05:20
thullyWhat kind of trouble are you having?  What type of laptop?  Using ACPI or APM?05:20
ushoozUsing ACPI05:20
ushoozToshiba 1415-S17305:21
thullyHave you written a suspend script?05:21
ushoozstarted but myslqd seems to keep it from shutting down05:21
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ushoozso I need to shut that down first :)05:21
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thullySo, what exactly is the problem?05:22
ushoozjust saying I need to get it worked out05:22
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thullydo you mean mysqld?05:24
thullyI'm not familiar w/mysql, so I can't really help if that is the issue05:24
ushoozno worries05:24
ushoozI can get it worked out... just being lazy about it so far05:25
Zindarushooz,  try /etc/init.d/mysqld stop :)05:25
ushoozsudo -s05:25
ushoozZindar, yeppers. Need to add that to my script05:26
thullyI sure wish Ubuntu had suspend-to-disk built into the kernel05:26
toyowheelinanyone know how I can moniter my cpu temp and stuff?05:26
ushoozthully, agreed. That is one reason I am being lazy05:27
ushoozneed to add the patch and recompile05:27
thullyI don't want to rebuild my kernel and lose the Ubuntu customizations05:28
thullyI heard the patch only works with the vanilla kernel05:28
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thullyUbuntu seems to work perfect (which can't be said for most distributions on my laptop) except for suspend05:31
ushoozSuSE 9.1 works great on this lappy05:32
ushoozall the way down to suspend05:32
ushoozbut I like Ubuntu05:32
thullyI tried SuSE 9.105:32
ushoozI feel to much junk gets installed with SuSE05:32
cianid3depends on what you choose ushooz05:32
mburnsUbuntu is going to be my distro of choice and recommendation... After the few kinks are worked out(partitioning issues on install)05:32
thullyNo built-in Centrino drivers - and I had the Personal edition, so no gcc to compile them with05:32
cianid3it ony installs what you select05:33
ushoozcianid3, aye, is true05:33
cianid3no gcc05:33
cianid3i had gcc05:33
cianid3just set and install source to a mirror05:33
cianid3and delete the cd install source05:33
thullyoh - but I don't have wired broadband05:33
thullyI use wi-fi a lot05:33
cianid3get it when you are in a hotspot05:33
cianid3you could jsut browse the mirror for gcc and download the rpm05:34
thullyI'm on Ubuntu now, so doesn't matter05:34
ushoozI like SuSE05:34
cianid3i had to leave ubuntu05:34
ushoozso I am not dogging it05:34
cianid3it wouldn't compile any software05:34
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eldadoshey guys05:34
thullyI do too - I'm between Ubuntu and SuSE for my distro of choice05:34
cianid3and an update corrupted all of my bhoot images05:34
cianid3slackware is the best distro05:34
cianid3and i've used in the last month05:34
ushoozI like Dropline05:34
cianid3debian, suse, mandrake, slackware, ubuntu, gentoo05:35
cianid3I'm running dropline05:35
ushoozSlackware does not like one of my desktop PCs though.. Gets hung on the SATA driver05:35
thullySuSE 9.2 is supposed to have good built-in wi-fi support and suspend-to-disk included05:35
ushoozI have run about them all05:35
=== baHam\\eat is now known as baHam\\off
thullyme too (except for gentoo)05:36
cianid3ushooz: you;ve used clost to all the 1000+ linux distors?05:36
baHam\\offcianid3, I used mandrake redhat debian gentoo slackware suse fedora ubuntu yellowdog and yoper 05:36
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baHam\\offthe best is ubuntu05:36
cianid3i've used redhat05:36
thullyno, but I've used about 10 different ones05:36
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cianid3baham: how many apllications have you compiled from soruce on ubuntu?05:37
ushoozcianid3, laugh literal, no... All the majors, yes05:37
thullyI used to use Mandrake - but it is becoming Linux with the stability of Windows05:37
toyowheelinany reason why lmsensors wouldnt see my sensors on my pc?05:37
ushoozcianid3, what app were you trying to compile?05:37
cianid3a vanilla kernel05:38
cianid3neither would compile05:38
cianid3just died with error05:38
ushoozonly thing I have complied so far in Ubuntu is xsp05:38
cianid3not to mention an update didn't complete which rendered my system unusable05:38
toyowheelinI have compiled several things05:39
cianid3i dunno05:39
cianid3slackware is just better05:39
cianid3in every way05:39
ushoozsound like bad luck05:39
ushoozSlackware is very nice05:39
thullyI tried slackware05:39
ushoozI have Slack on a 1.5 P4 and it works great05:39
eldadosso far yoper is the best distro I tried! ubuntu64 is very nice as well :)05:39
cianid3slackware is the first distro i've been able to compile a vanilla kernel on05:39
ushoozSlack does not like my mobo with SATA though :(05:40
thullyIt worked OK - but my sound didn't work right and I had some other problems getting online05:40
cianid3what kernel?05:40
ushoozthe default install kernel off the CD05:40
cianid3maybe try kernel05:41
cianid3with the new sata driver05:41
ushoozI need to download a current ISO and give that a whirl05:42
thullyas in Slackware-current, right?05:42
thullyI didn't know they made ISOs of that05:42
ushoozPatrick does not05:43
ushoozbut a guy in #slackware has em05:43
ushoozjust a matter of asking05:43
ushoozdo not recall his nick05:43
thullyThis laptop's getting a bit hot - maybe I should switch back to ACPI05:44
deweyok so I am going to install java using those instructions and has anyone here used those instructions?05:44
ushoozthully, I am use to hot laptops. My bloody powerbook cooks me all the time05:47
ushoozmy 1.8 Celeron gets warm but nothing like that machine05:47
thullyI hope Ubuntu gets suspend-to-disk in a prebuilt kernel soon05:48
thullyI may have to try SuSE 9.2 which is supposed to have suspend-to-disk and great wi-fi support05:48
Zindarthully, I woundn't expect it until hoary05:49
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Zindarthully, I used syspend to disk in suse 9.1 and it worked05:49
Zindarwell... after you messed with it for a while05:49
mirak_zindar, is it going to be in hoary??05:49
mirak_zindar, for sure???05:49
thullyDo you think it will be in they hoary development version in the near future05:49
Zindarmirak_, no idea... but I wouldn't expect it earlier05:49
ushoozZindar, yeah it works in SuSE for me as well. close lid and it suspends05:49
mirak_zindar, kk05:49
Zindarushooz, ohh.. never got suspend-to-ram to work under suse05:50
thullyIt worked in APM, but not in ACPI in SUSE 9.1 for me05:50
ushoozI love that feature. Make for quick access05:50
Zindarso.. in my experience.. suse -> mess a little and it might work.. ubuntu -> mess a little bit more and it might work05:50
ushoozthat is the thing I miss in Ubuntu compared to SuSE05:50
Zindarbasically.. I don't think the linux kernel is quite there yet....05:51
ushoozI may reimage my laptop to SuSE due to that05:51
thullyRight now, the 3 distros I'm considering are Ubuntu,SUSE,and Kanotix (installable live CD based on sid w/wi-fi drivers and latest kernel)05:51
deweyso I make a .deb as sudo?05:51
ushoozI look forward to checking out SuSE 9.2 myself05:52
deweythully: have you tried mandrake?05:52
thullyYeah - the stability of Windows on Linux for me05:52
thullyI used it for a few years - but it has gotten too unstable for me05:52
mburnswill ubuntu have an in-distro upgrade ability for upgrading to the second release?05:53
thullyUsing apt-get, I suppose there will be05:54
thullyI've upgraded from RC1 to the current warty archive05:54
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thullyI'm starting to like GNOME over KDE after using it on Ubuntu - seems more lightweight to me05:55
jdubmburns: definitely, it's just like debian (because it is debian) :)05:56
thullyIt isn't Debian the way MEPIS or Libranet is, though.05:57
eldadosthully, i'm with you on that one! gnome rocks05:57
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adam_hey guys, i just installed Ubuntu, i'm trying to setup my wireless device, i got the drivers installed, i just don't know where to actually detect "wlan0" or eth1, can someone try and help?05:57
ushoozthully, I do not mind either one but I prefer Gnome05:57
calcthully: they both seem to use about the same amount of resources afaict, but gnome is much nicer gui wise05:57
calckde 4.0 needs to use gnome hig ;)05:58
adam_hey guys, i just installed Ubuntu, i'm trying to setup my wireless device, i got the drivers installed, i just don't know where to actually detect "wlan0" or eth1, can someone try and help?05:58
thullydid you try doing an iwconfig to see what wi-fi devices are on your system?05:59
adam_none come up05:59
adam_says lo, eth0 and sit0 have no wireless extensions.05:59
thullyDid the drivers come with Ubuntu?05:59
adam_its not assigned a hardware id (eth1, or wlan0)05:59
adam_I compiled Orinoco05:59
adam_and modprobe does see it05:59
mirak_is fluxbox in the repository????06:00
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thullyI think it's in universe06:01
ushoozorinoco is a default in Ubuntu06:01
adam_it didn't detect mine...06:01
adam_it is dispalying in device manager06:02
mirak_thully, how do i change to start fluxbox in ubuntu???06:02
adam_its actually a Compaq LAN W200, but it uses the Orinoco drivers (gotten the orinoco drivers to work with Slackware 9)06:02
ushoozit needs hermes, orinoco_cs, orinoco, and ds modules06:03
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adam_hermes is there.06:04
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adam_i just did orinoco_cs06:04
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adam_orinoco was done already too06:04
thullymirak_: I think you may be able to select it in GDM from one of the menus that are at the bottom of the screen (something like Change Session)06:04
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lopezfcan someone help me with my wireless? i tried this guide but still no luck http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/howto/helpcenterhowto.2004-10-07.7773155363/view?searchterm=ndiswrapper06:05
adam_wait a sec....06:05
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thursdaycan someone help me with my wireless? i tried this guide but still no luck http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/howto/helpcenterhowto.2004-10-07.7773155363/view?searchterm=ndiswrapper06:05
ushoozyou get a little life adam_?06:06
thullyIt seems like 50% of Linux problems have to do with wi-fi - at least my ipw2200 works in Ubuntu no problem06:06
ushoozout of your nic06:06
adam_ok wehn i go to network settings, its now listed, i set it up06:06
ushoozthully, laptops and linux are allways fun :)06:06
adam_it won't enable tho.06:07
adam_i check activate but it doesnt'..06:07
thursdayi guess the problem is when i do ndiswrapper -l it doest shot and connected, even tho the card is inserted06:07
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thursdayoops, it doesnt show as connected even tho the card is inserted06:08
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toyowheelinmount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/hda1,06:10
toyowheelin       or too many mounted file systems why do I get that error when I try to mount my windows partition06:10
adam_it won't enable.06:11
adam_is there a way i can reactivate it from a command line?06:11
joemtoyowheelin, are you passing the filesystem option06:11
mirak_thully, huh?, that doesnt make sence to me06:11
thursdayno one huh? :(06:12
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ushoozadam_, sudo ifdown ethx06:13
ushoozadam_, sudo ifup ethx06:13
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ushoozthursday, never used the wrappers for a wireless nic... so I am of no help06:14
adam_says ifdown: interface wlan0 not configured06:14
adam_how do i make wlan0 exist?06:14
Zindaradam_, I find that most wireless just shows up as eth1 eth0 or whatever06:15
thullymirak_: on the gdm logon screen, is there some options at the bottom?06:15
Zindareth0 is mine06:15
adam_i have 2 network cards on this laptop06:15
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adam_1 is a hardline (which i can use to get drivers and stuff) and the wireless one06:15
adam_the hardline is fine06:15
mirak_oh...i odnt know....brb06:16
thursdaysucks cuz i got them to work with gentoo once06:17
thursdaywonder if i need to alias the wlan0 to a device somewhere?06:17
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mirak_ooo, i dont really like it, fluxbox that it06:18
toyowheelinno joem06:18
toyowheelinI was doing it through webmin06:18
mirak_maybe it was xfce4 i was looking for?06:18
adam_Zindar: mine doesn't, how do i create a hardwre for it?06:19
dmartiI have a question re. Rhythmbox.  When I select an internet radio station  and press play it freezes up, but works fine for local  oggs and mp3s.  What am I doing wrong?06:20
toyowheelinok never mind joem it was passing the -t 06:20
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toyowheelinit works fine doing it in the command line06:20
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dmartiIt will change the window title to the name of the station, but then just freezes up06:21
jdubhey dmarti 06:23
dmartiHey, jdub. 06:23
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mirak_oooo, it was xfce4 that i was lookinf for06:24
mirak_i like it06:24
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dmartijdub, fun distribution you have here06:26
jdubthanks, enjoying it?06:26
dmartiyeah, can you make gnome start slower so I can look at nekkid people longer06:26
SepheeBearanyone know if Ubuntu's gnome-vfs has got dns-sd enabled? i installed howl and configured mDNSresponder but it still doesnt want to pick up any Panther ftp servers.06:26
jdubSepheeBear: nup, it doesn't06:27
SepheeBearthanks, so im not going nuts then06:27
jdubi'm not qualified to answer that ;)06:27
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SepheeBearjdub: i think you're right06:28
mirak_me being a newb, do you think i will be alright running xfce4 under ubuntu....or is there not enough support/help for me????06:29
mirak_lol, actually i gues it would be OVER ubuntu06:29
jdubmirak_: the only thing to be aware of is that the packages are unsupported06:30
SepheeBearis there any work being done with dns-sd on Ubuntu?06:31
mirak_jdub, what does that mean, exactly??????....xfce4 packages are unsuported????......06:31
mirak_jdub, sorry for my newbness06:31
jdubmirak_: they don't get the same attention from the developers, no security fixes, etc.06:31
jdubSepheeBear: not really. most of that is gnome-level stuff.06:31
jdubSepheeBear: we'll be shipping howl and so on in hoary06:32
mirak_jdub, but most apps in the repository will still work for me.....right????06:32
jdubshould do06:32
mirak_jdub, "should do" to me?06:32
Zindarjdub: will howl be integrated so that if I install sshd it will be annonced with howl?06:32
SepheeBearawesome thanks jdub06:32
Zindarfor example06:32
jdubZindar: well, no plans thus far, but i'd hope we do that at some stage06:33
Zindarjdub: that would be extremly cool :)06:33
mirak_jdub, sweet, i really like xfce4, but i was afraid i was wondering to far out06:33
Zindarjdub: and also something that other distributions will start doing soon06:33
dmartiAnyone else had trouble getting internet radio stations with Rhythmbox?  It locks up for me.06:34
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jdubdmarti: i've heard a couple of reports06:34
jdubdmarti: like this? https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240306:35
SepheeBearit's pretty easy to set up mdnsresponder manually to announce services, my only problem is getting linux to resolve localhosts without using a hosts file06:35
jdubah right - that'll require some sweet nss loving06:36
jdubwhich has been done already06:36
jdubso just a matter of pulling new glibc or a patch06:36
dmartijdub, yes, sounds like the same problem.  The window doesn't even redraw06:37
adam_anyone know how to get wlan0 to actualyl exist?06:37
ZindarSepheeBear, suse does do that.. 06:37
jdubdmarti: that bug is stuck in needinfo06:37
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dmartiI'm looking for the requested info right now on my system (x86)06:38
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avatar_my new ubuntu system was running fine -- i booted it up a few minutes ago and it hard locks while booting.. last thing it says is "* Running usb.rc..."06:38
SepheeBearZindar: suse has the resolver configed to do that? any idea how?06:38
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dmartideafult sink output ESD.  test tone works06:39
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jdubSepheeBear: a new nss module (or both)06:39
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thullyIS there a real speed difference between the 386 and 686 kernels?06:40
ZindarSepheeBear, hacked the resolver library I think06:40
ZindarSepheeBear, that's what their start up readme sais if I remember correctly06:41
aitrusdoes anyone know what package provides ode/ode.h?06:42
SepheeBeari think that's the same as OS X, they've got a couple files under '/etc/resolver' and they manpage refers to a "Super" DNS resolver06:42
ZindarIncompatible change: the resolver library treats the .local top level domain as link-local domain and sends multicast DNS requests to the multicast address port 5353 instead of normal DNS requests. If you already use the .local domain in your nameserver configuration you will have to switch to another domain name. See http://www.multicastdns.org  for more information on multicast DNS.06:43
Zindargoogle rocks06:45
aitrusheh.. libode-devell06:45
SepheeBearZindar: that's awesome! what search string did you use?06:46
ZindarSepheeBear, suse resolver .local06:46
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thullyIs there a significant speed increase with the 686 kernel over the 386 kernel?06:48
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defendguinok what every app is incharge of trying to save power by shutting off and on on my laptop i need to uninstall it06:49
Despairthully: depends on the task and the particular cpu. i386 code tends to be smaller and more cache-friendly, i686 may give better throughput if it doesn't trip over cache miss issues.06:49
defendguinthis is stupid06:49
defendguinthis stupid thing turns my hard drive on and off every other min06:50
thullyI'm running a Pentium M06:50
thullydefendguin: That is laptop-mode06:50
defendguindoes laptop mode have settings i can adjust?06:51
thullyYes, but they are command-line type settings that are controlled by scripts in the /etc/acpi directory06:51
defendguinthats fine i need to fix this pos06:52
defendguinits just too aggressive at trying to save power06:52
thullyI'm unfamiliar with it's command switches - it doesn't have a man page unfortunately06:53
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jameshhi yakk06:54
defendguinhmmm is got hdparm setting as a 12 06:54
defendguinthat seems really low06:54
Treenaksdefendguin: hdparm starts first, so other stuff can start faster I guess06:54
Treenaks("easier" disk access)06:54
defendguinwhat are ou talking about?06:55
Treenaksdefendguin: well, if hdparm "tunes" the disk at 12, everything _after_ that will possibly start quicker, because disk access is faster06:55
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defendguinTreenaks, its setting the spindown timer to 12 which is about 60 seconds06:57
defendguinso no disk usage in 60 seconds it spins down06:57
defendguinbut that doesnt seem right unless my laptop never uses disk06:58
yakkhi jamesh!06:58
defendguinbecause it spins down after about 20 seconds06:58
yakkjamesh: how have you been?06:58
thullyIs there any way to use laptop-mode with APM?06:59
thullyHow about speedstep?06:59
defendguinill just set the spindown timer to 5 min06:59
defendguinit sets the B value to 1 which is the most aggressive power management there is07:01
calcB value on what?07:02
jdubyo yakk!07:02
defendguincalc, hdparm07:03
defendguincrap that didnt work07:03
jameshyakk: good.07:03
jameshyakk: are you going to come to LCA next year? :)07:03
yakkhey JD 07:04
yakkhey jdub07:04
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yakkjamesh: I don't think so - I'm going to be back in Perth for December & January, but I read that lca is in like april or something, right?07:04
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jameshyakk: yes.  Also, its in Canberra.07:05
yakkjamesh: I have some friends I'd like to visit in Canberra, but I can't see myself (a) skipping snowboarding and (b) getting the time off work :(07:05
jameshyakk: apparently it was moved from January because Canberra is hot in the summer07:06
jameshunlike Perth07:06
yakkwell, it doesn't have a beach07:06
jameshit has a lake07:06
jameshwith a fountain07:07
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yakkjamesh, true - but I don't think it would quite be the same07:07
jameshthe fountain is quite impressive though.  It is spraying out a lot more water than you might think at first07:08
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yakknice! I've never made it to Canberra07:10
yakknext time perhaps...07:10
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mirak_what do i do with a .run file??07:15
yakkso, an ubuntu kernel should work fine with a sid system, right?07:16
aitruschmod 755 file.run, ./file.run  =)07:18
Despair`sh foo.run`, if you want to run it07:18
mindwarpanyone using ubuntu with reiserfs?07:18
mirak_so "sh <filename>" ????07:18
Despairmirak_: usually. .run is generally a binary installer stuffed in a shell script07:18
Despairextensions aren't 100% reliable indicators of contents, though.07:19
wm_eddie#include <gtk/gtk.h> isn't working!07:19
wm_eddiehow do I include gtk.h?07:19
WW_mirak_: just curious... what is the .run file for?07:20
yakkwm_eddie, you need to put the right include options on the gcc command-line07:21
mirak_ww_, UT07:21
yakkwm_eddie, pkg-config --cflags gtk+-2.007:21
aitruswm_eddie: did you install the -devel package for gtk?07:21
WW_mirak_: Ah07:21
wm_eddieyakk: I've been spoiled by python..07:22
wm_eddieok now it works07:22
mirak_ww_, UT2004-LNX-Demo3334.run.gz-1 is the actual filename, what should go after sh, all of that, or just up to .run07:23
WW_mirak_: I think others here will know better than I... but the ".gz" part make me think it is compressed.  Not sure about the -1, though.07:24
Despairmirak_: you may need to uncompress it first. (gunzip filename), may need to rename it to get rid of the -1 on the end, too.07:24
yakkwm_eddie, well, its not that different from: import pygtk;pygtk.require('2.0') :)07:24
mirak_despair, just remonve the -1????07:24
Despair`mv UT2004-LNX-Demo3334.run.gz-1 UT2004-LNX-Demo3334.run.gz`07:24
mirak_mv: cannot stat `UT2004-LNX-Demo3334.run.gz-1': No such file or directory07:25
mirak_ is what i get07:25
wm_eddieyakk: do you know anything about C function pointers?07:25
wm_eddieguint       gtk_key_snooper_install         (GtkKeySnoopFunc snooper,07:25
wm_eddie                                             gpointer func_data);07:25
yakkwm_eddie, I know something07:25
wm_eddieI'm trying to do that.07:26
yakkwm_eddie, so whats the definition of GtkKeySnoopFunc07:26
mirak_ahh well...ill figure it out later07:26
wm_eddiegint        (*GtkKeySnoopFunc)              (GtkWidget *grab_widget,07:26
mirak_nite nite07:26
WW_mirak_: That's weird. Isn't that the name of the file you gave earlier?07:26
wm_eddieI'll remove the whitespace next time.07:26
yakkI just have to say, Grosse Point Blank is a fantastic film07:28
mirak_ww_ yes it is07:29
mirak_i have no idea07:30
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mirak_ww_, does it matter that i am using xfce4, i wouldt think so, but im new, so i could be wrong07:30
yakkwm_eddie, you got that function definition07:30
wm_eddieyakk: so if I make a function "guint snooper(params)" I put &snooper in the GtkKeySnoopFunc place?07:30
WW_mirak_: Basic question: did you run the mv command in the directory where the file is located?07:31
wm_eddieso the thing will be gtk_key_snooper_install(&snooper, etc...); ?07:31
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yakkwm_eddie, yes, basically07:31
s7sHello! What is the best mp3-player for linux(ubuntu)?07:31
wm_eddies7s: rhythmbox.07:31
mirak_ww_, yes i did, and i shecked that by running "ls", and the file showed07:32
aitrusmpg321  =)07:32
wm_eddies7s: It's like all the good things of iTunes, and none of the bloat.07:32
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s7sTanks :)07:32
yakkwm_eddie, s7s: and all the bad things :)07:32
yakk(ui wise)07:32
aitrusyeah, except you can't just open it and play a single file without importing the damn thing07:32
aitrusoh, and importing big mp3 collections crashes it07:32
yakkpersonally, I'm a fan of xmms/beep - I drag and drop from nautilus - its good07:33
WW_mirak_: Running xfce4 shouldn't matter at this point.  You're just using shell commands.07:33
s7sI pretty new at this. I see that when you write to me, your name turns yellow! How do you do that?07:33
wm_eddiewow this is confusing...07:33
yakks7s: xmms does that07:34
aitruss7s: your chat client does that automagically07:34
mirak_ww_, what i thought, was  just confirming07:34
yakkI mean xchat07:34
yakkaitrus: beep is a gtk2 port of xmms07:34
aitrusyakk: sweet!07:34
mindwarpanyone using ubuntu with reiserfs? if so what do I gotta add to my fstab (like notail etc?)07:34
WW_mirak_: Could it be permissions?  Just guessing (but I think that would say something like "access denied").07:34
s7sHow does it know who i want to talk to?07:35
WW_mindwarp: I'm using reiserfs.  Nothing special required.07:35
mirak_well i used sudo before the sh command............didnt work07:35
mirak_but i didnt try sudo before mv07:35
s7sShould i just mark the name on the User list?07:36
yakks7s: to have a private conversation with someone you can do /query person07:36
yakks7s: that'll open a tab with a private conversation07:36
wm_eddieYES! it works07:37
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s7sIs there a list or guide or something with all of these commands?07:37
aitrusis there any particular reason that xmms hasn't moved to gtk2?07:37
aitruss7s: irchelp.org07:38
s7sOk, thanks :)07:38
aitruss7s: but there really isn't much that you need to know...07:38
aitruss7s: just chat like IM except it's out in the open07:38
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wm_eddiedamn, it doesn't do what I need...07:42
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WW_mirak_: I don't know why you had a -1 at the end of your file.  Are you sure it was completely downloaded, with no problems?07:45
WW_mirak_: By the way, here's a web page that might be useful for you: http://titaniclinux.net/cms/FC?cmsPage=true&link=25107:46
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yakkaitrus, the reason is that the xmms people haven't gotten around to it - but beep is basically just a port07:49
yakkaitrus, though it looks like they'll be extending it07:49
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fargonHi folks, got a question about wireless in Ubuntu.07:49
aitrusyakk: beep looks nice... though it seems to have some "issues". =)  but none that will keep me from using it (so far)07:50
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WW_mirak_: Anyway, good luck, and good night.07:50
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thursdayok so i fixed my wireless :) but now the battery status epplet in gnome isnt working. any advice?07:50
thursdayanyone know what device it reads from? maybe perms need adjusting07:50
fargonWhen I installed Ubuntu on my centrino laptop at home, it detected and installed the wireless connection automatically (which is just great), but when I booted up later, in school, I could not get it to detect the school's wireless connection. Is there a way to fix it so that the Laptop would auto-detect wireless networks?07:51
fargonI'm sorry if that is verbose :)07:51
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Skiffargon: there is waproamd, in universe, but I don't know how well it works07:59
Skifyou an also try setting your essid to 'any', and see what you associate to07:59
adam_hey guys, i have a new network card i need to install, i installed the drivers ,but its not assigned eth1 or wlan0, any ideas?08:00
adam_the modules are loaded08:00
Skifadam: do you see any messages in /var/log/syslog when you insert your card (I'm assuming it's a PCMCIA card, right?)08:01
adam_Skif: actually its SUB08:02
Skifclose enough08:02
adam_its a Orinoco card, multiport08:02
Skifhave you run 'usbview' to make sure it's showing up on the bus properly?08:02
fargonthank you, Skif08:02
adam_no, 1sec, its listed in Device Manager08:02
Skifgood enough then... hrm08:03
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adam_i get errors when i start about pciehp,shpchp, does that matter?08:03
Skifadam: try 'sudo tail -f /var/log/syslog' and then insert the card08:03
Skifadam: no, those are innocuous08:03
adam_new full speed USB device using address 508:04
Skifthat's it?08:05
Skiflooks like you might have the wrong drivers08:06
adam_well, the driver is installed08:06
adam_how do i make it a device?08:06
fargonSkif, again, I installed waproamd, like you suggested, but when I type #waproamd I get nothing. I am sorry if that sounds dumb, why can't I seem to execute the program?08:06
Skifright, but perhaps it's not the right one08:06
adam_i need to do something like makedev?08:06
Skiffargon: daemons (background programs that do stuff on their own) are usually started on install; try 'man waproamd' or check /usr/share/doc/waproamd08:07
mindwarpI haven't been all that impressed with waproamd08:07
Skiffargon: I've never used it myself, I just saw it there.08:07
mindwarpI find it to be messy and broken08:07
Skifadam: no, that's not necessary08:08
adam_ok well its orinoco08:08
mindwarpso if anyone comes across a better solution msg me because that program is like 35% working at best08:08
Skifadam: some orinoco cards use the prism2 driver08:08
fargond'oh ! Thanks, Skif. I forget having read the daemon part...08:08
adam_i know mine is this one, i've gotten it to work before with slackware 908:08
Skifokay, well, can't help ya, then :)08:08
adam_i know the driver is installed, its showing stats for the card...08:09
adam_how do I activate it forcefully?08:09
Skifyou could always insert the card with great vim, vigor, and vitality08:09
adam_is there a way to do a hardware detect?08:11
Skif'sudo discover ethernet' might work08:12
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SkifIt won't configure anything, but it'll at least let you know if it is supposed to.08:12
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calcJD: hi08:13
JDhi calc08:13
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adam_Skif: how do I add it to /sys/class/net/ ?08:15
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joolzmorning everyone08:16
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joolzwhere is the gnome menu located? i would like to add some entries manually08:17
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Skifadam: that happens when the driver associates the device with the driver08:17
Skifadam: if you don't see it there, then the driver has not claimed the device08:17
adam_can i be misssing a driver?08:18
calcjoolz: entries are probably under /usr/share/applications08:18
adam_like i'm not probing something?08:18
Skifit's possible08:18
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calcjoolz: you can probably add entries per user under ~/.local/08:19
calcor just use the main location08:19
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joolzcalc: thanks! i lookes everywhere, only not in ~/.local That's the one08:20
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lhbis there a ununtu forum already?08:22
TheMusoDo you mean www.ubuntuforum.org?08:25
TheMusoAnd I think there is also www.ubuntuforums.org08:25
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aitruslet's start ubuntu-forums.org08:30
adam_think i might have found out why...08:33
adam_orinoco_usb support doesn't exist...08:33
adam_for the driver i downloaded...08:33
Skifah, that would make the difference08:33
adam_ok i'm gonna try somethign else, thx for ur help08:34
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Skifoddly enough, I have an orinoco usb device that works just fine. ^_^;;08:34
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alka_trashpretty slow here tonight08:51
Yojimbovery quiet, indeed :-)08:51
alka_trashI always use swat to share folder on a windows network, is there another way though gnome 2.8?08:53
TheMusoThere may be a Samber Server frontend for GNOME I guess. I have never really looked into it, but it would probably be a neat feature for Ubuntu.08:54
Yojimbo:-) Terminal, sudo vi /etc/samba/smb.conf; sudo killall -HUP smbd ?08:54
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ondrejg'morning all08:54
alka_trashhmm, looking into it08:55
alka_trashdamn, it was pretty cool reading my work email today form and an exchange server with evolution :)08:56
ondrejI have strange error when setting up network interfaces: "Error for wireless request "Set Encode" (8B2A) : SET failed on device lo ; Operation not supported."08:56
ondrejdoes anybody else see this behaviour?08:57
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TheMusoFrom your message there, it sounds like it is trying to change settings on the loopback interface.08:57
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ondrejeth1 is wireless card, but this error shows even on 'lo' interface08:58
TheMusoShould the lo interface be able to take such a settings change?08:58
geek_punkdudes, the /sbin/modconf exist on ubuntu ???08:58
TheMusoDoesn't appear to be on my system here.08:59
Yojimbowhat does modconf do? the same as modprobe?08:59
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TheMusoModconf is a Debian command to load modules. I also think it saves them to be loaded at boot time.09:00
geek_punkmodconf is a ncurses interfaz where the kernel modules show haves and you can select someone and load or unload09:01
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geek_punkmy english is poor sorry ;S09:01
jdubgeek_punk: just edit /etc/modules09:02
YojimboHmmm ... unloading modules is never a good idea - 2.6 kernels allow you to prevent module unloading if you like. Perhaps by 2.8 unloading might work properly09:02
geek_punkoks is an alternavite  tnx09:03
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TheMusoAs jdub said, just edit /etc/modules if you want modules to be loaded at boot time. To load them straight away, simply use the modprobe command. To unload them, use the rmmod command. Unless you have set up a root password, don't forget to use sudo when working with the /etc/modules file, or the modules commands mentioned above.09:05
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gonzokiwiGood evening from New Zealand09:06
gonzokiwiCould someone help me configure video on a Tecra 8000?09:07
TheMusoDo you know what chipset the video hardware is?09:07
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gonzokiwiNeomagic Corporation [MagicGraph 256AV] 09:08
gonzokiwiI've also found this:-  http://the.taoofmac.com/space/Ubuntu09:09
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gonzokiwi...I'm such a sorry newbie I'm not sure *how* to edit "XF86Config-4"....09:10
TheMusoOk. Did you get to choose what video driver you wanted to use during the Ubuntu installation?09:10
Treenaksgonzokiwi: sudo nano /etc/XF86Config-409:10
Treenaksgonzokiwi: but only if reconfiguring doesn't work correctly with sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree8609:11
opi^workgonzokiwi: I see you're using same laptop as my girlfriend is09:11
opi^workgonzokiwi: Neomagic sucks, you have to edit XF by hand ;(09:11
gonzokiwiHow did she get on?09:11
opi^workwe brought it from Allegro.pl (it's something like Polish eBay)09:12
opi^workget on ;)09:12
opi^workI've misread it09:12
opi^workno, she's running XP on it09:12
gonzokiwiopi^work: Sorry, Kiwi expression...09:12
opi^workI've just tested Live CD (Slax and Ubuntu)09:12
gonzokiwiopi^work: Do you remember what she did to XF, exactly?09:12
opi^workgonzokiwi: I've googled it out, IIRC09:13
gonzokiwiI'm really sorry about this pi, but you've lost me...09:13
gonzokiwiSo, first off I should open a terminal session and type "sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86"?09:14
gonzokiwiAnyone? I seriously apologise for my cluelessness....09:16
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opi^workfirst open console09:16
opi^workdo sudo dpkg-rec..09:16
opi^worksee if Neomagic is on the list09:17
opi^workif not09:17
opi^workdo sudo nano /etc/X11/XFree86-409:17
TheMusoopi^work:  Don't you mean /etc/X11/XF86Config-4?09:17
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opi^workI did09:18
opi^worksorry 09:18
gonzokiwiOK, back in 5 mins, THANKS!09:18
=== TheMuso goes to look at the driver list, just in case it oculd be something obscure. :)
TheMusoNo, there is a neomagic driver.09:21
tvon|x31Glider == SmoothGNOME ?09:21
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giorsatthis is for ubuntu technicians. I tried several times to install ubuntu (latest is rc) in a lcd pc with sis motherboard but I stop at first boot since hotplug system hangs everything. in ubu preview the error message was epoin timeout on usb 1.1 . In ubu rc no error message. I tried with a no apic nolapic acpi=off pci?noacpi nopcmcia option ojn grub with various dispositions. Nothing to do. I reported a bug but If anyone has an idea plea09:22
opi^workgonzokiwi: http://www.xfree86.org/4.2.0/neomagic.4.html here's the Neo driver09:22
dyngiorsat: tried to disable usb in the bios?09:23
dyngiorsat: maybe update your bios to the latest version?09:23
gonzokiwiTheMuso: What do I need to do?09:26
TheMusoI was checking for myself whether there was in fact a neomagic driver in the list that you get when you run dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree8609:26
giorsatI don't' have many optiuons on bios and It's not possible to disable usb. Don't know how to update. computer is only 1 year old so bios shouldn't be so old09:26
gonzokiwiTheMuso: Thanks, will proceed, will try to have a better question to ask momentarily...09:26
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maswandaniels: thanks for the x40 packages, was just starting to think about how to get suspend working and a simple googling turned up all the nice stuff. :)09:27
TheMusoI am actually thinking of doing such a thing for the R50 series, but not sure whether anybody has done so yet, and haven't been able to find any scripts for the R50.09:28
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mrjivehi *09:51
Dethreadhello, mrjive09:51
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mrjivehi Dethread 09:52
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umanthank you for that wonderful theme with the nice humans looking up, I use that now as a wallpaper for my crux10:07
opi^workuman: well, there's big fight around those themes, so be preapare to be flamed ;-))10:09
Dethreaduman, I think you're the only one who likes it10:09
dyni see these backgrounds shared humanity ;)10:09
umanI noticed that, but it's really different from most stuff you get eg from www.kde-look.org and such10:09
opi^workI like'e, too10:09
dynmy first impressions was 'geez that's gay' (yeah i know it's not)10:10
umanit's not just another rendered image in blue10:10
dynand all 3 friends i asked said the same10:10
Treenaksdyn: compare the logo to the photo...10:10
umanof course I took out the ubuntu with the gimp and put crux in the corner ;)10:10
dyni even heard that "gay distro" comment based on the screenshots (again, i DO know it's not, but that's the picture in ppl first hitting those screens)10:10
opi^workbecause it's gay, as in friendly/happy10:10
dynTreenaks: yeah noticed that :)10:11
dynTreenaks: my gf got the 4.10 pre-release and it has the logo instead of the pic in the gnome logon screen10:11
Dethreadthe only good picture they had was that sabrina.jpg, that was on the wiki for a little while :)10:11
Treenaksdyn: yeah, so did I10:11
opi^workdyn: tell me, what's gey (homosexual) in guy and two gals?10:11
umanI was thinking of maybe making an altered version of the 2 women wearing some nun's costume and some afghanian full body veil thing, to make some people happy10:11
umanif you see how most teenagers run around nowaday that's nothin10:12
dynopi^work: read above. i know it's not. but somehow it reminds ppl i know to it10:12
Treenaksopi^work: well, lots of men like lesbian pron...10:12
opi^workTreenaks: Im don't watch p0rn, so I'll relay on you here ;->10:12
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uman"okay, now hit your penguin key to open up your K Menu....."10:13
dynDethread: which pics was that? is it still online?10:13
umanone can dream...10:13
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Dethreaddyn, no....someone complained about it...but I still have it :)10:13
DethreadI'll upload it somewhere real quick :)10:13
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dynheh i'm getting curious10:14
Dethread(not work safe) http://img49.exs.cx/img49/5480/sabrina.jpg10:14
KeybukAhh, Sabrina10:14
Dethreadsomeone complained I guess and they had to take it off :(10:14
DethreadI like that one much better than the theme with the three people10:15
KeybukNo, I don't think it was that especially.  It was only up as an example10:15
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Dethreadbut something like this was gonna make it onto the live cd10:15
Dethreadanyway, great picture :)10:15
umanthe brown one with the world on it ?10:15
Dethreadno,that was an example as well10:16
dynhaha Dethread10:16
dynwell, that's definetely not gay10:16
dynat least10:16
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umanit's not work safe but very pretty10:17
Dethreadah, it's still in google's cache10:17
umangreat photo, awesome lighting & colouring10:17
Dethreadscroll down to "Default Desktop Background"10:17
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dyni like that text font on the logo10:17
opi^workUnicat_: my Boss said: they offended by females in bra and halfnaked guy? Geez.10:18
umanI wonder if they ever go to the beach10:18
umanI've got the feeling some women are just jealous of the blonde10:18
Dethreadbecause she gets to be in a Linux theme?10:19
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TreenaksDethread: if that's the problem, send'em by my place.. I'll make themes out of their pics :)10:19
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umanDethread: you have some more photos of the same photographer ?10:20
Dethreaduman, sorry no10:21
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Dethreadhi joh_10:31
joh_what is the "right way to do it(TM)" when compiling a custom kernel in ubuntu?10:31
joh_I want inotify :)10:32
Tibozuse make-kpkg10:32
Treenaksjoh_: wait for hoary :P or probably using kernel-package and the ubuntu sources10:32
DethreadI supposed it'd be the same as the Debian way10:32
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joh_Dethread: ok, but how do I create the initrd image? I used the default ubuntu kernel config and the debian way. But ubuntu need some of the modules at compile time. I just dont know which :)10:33
joh_compile time = boot :)10:34
Treenaksjoh_: there's an option for make-kpkg to do that afaik10:34
Tibozyeah it's --initrd10:35
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joh_Thanks guys!10:39
joh_I`ll try that, Beagle - here I come 10:39
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=== Treenaks hopes beagle will be included in hoary
plovs_workjoh_, http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/BeagleInstall10:42
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joh_plovs_work: thanks!10:46
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dynTreenaks: hoari?10:46
Treenaksdyn: The Next Version10:46
dynok :)10:47
dyn"debian based p0rn distro - enjoy" ;)10:51
tvonTreenaks: that would be tight10:51
tvoner, 'nice'10:51
Tibozit's the lesbian project 10:52
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opi^workI guess Jihad Debian Distro would be better for some people10:55
Treenakstvon: you type "tight" for "nice"? hmm..10:55
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digitalSurgeoni'mbakc :p10:56
NgTreenaks: since Goldmember it's ok ;)10:56
tvonIt would also be rad, cool, bitchen and totally tits10:57
TreenaksNg: 8)10:57
tvonand it would 'kick my ass'10:57
danielsmaswan: awesome :)10:57
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|trey|lesbian = pr0n collection that is entirely apt-get'able  8)10:59
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digitalSurgeonlol @ trey11:01
digitalSurgeonit's 2 pm here in pakistna11:02
xskoulax3am here in Denver11:02
Dethread2am on the west coast11:02
Tiboz11 am in paris11:02
xskoulaxafternoon digitalSurgeon11:02
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|trey|digitalSurgeon: not being funny... http://www.lesbian.mine.nu/11:03
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housetieroh yes porn-get is funny11:05
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alka_trashnice lesbian distro11:09
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sladenalka_trash: have you seen the   @ lesbian  t-shirts Jason Clifford had printed?11:10
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alka_trashno I haven't11:11
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s7sHow can i listen to one of the radio-stations in 'Rythmbox 0.8.5'? It keeps freezing when i try to connect.11:15
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digitalSurgeontotem and rythembox both are crap11:16
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housetiers7s, I experience the same but haven't found a solution yet11:17
housetierI believe it has to do with gnomevfs, but I don't know11:18
Tibozs7s: if rhythmbox crashes, pick up the url of the radio you want to listen and play it with xmms11:18
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jdubthere's a bug about this in bugzilla - search for radio11:18
alka_trashyep xmms or beep-media-player11:19
NoStressI wanted to compile a NeHe opengl tutorial, it works, it create a opengl window but nothing appear in it11:19
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seb128try with "gst-launch-0.8 gnomevfssrc location=....... ! spider ! volume ! audioscale ! audioconvert ! $(gconftool-2 -g /system/gstreamer/0.8/default/audiosink)"11:19
seb128if that doesn't work that's a gstreamer problem11:19
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Treenaksdon't forget to escape the !s11:19
NoStresswhen i run the bin bundled in the tgz, it works well11:20
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lhbis there a runlevel editor in ubuntu (debian)11:20
seb128Treenaks: esoace the !s ?11:20
Treenaksescape even11:20
NoStressif a compile it, nothing is draw in the opengl window11:20
Treenaksif you're typing it in a shell11:20
alka_trashthe nice thing about beep-media-player is that you can use winamp skins11:20
seb128Treenaks: ??11:20
Lathiatalka_trash: you can do that in winamp too11:20
seb128Treenaks: that's a command to enter in a shell, nothing to escape11:20
Lathiati mean11:21
NoStressif a remove the -lGL in the makefile, il compile with no warning and works well ??!!11:21
Treenaksseb128: my shell complains about the "!"s not being escaped..11:21
housetierthe "!" need to be escaped11:21
seb128that's a joke, isn't it ? :)11:21
Treenaksseb128: it tells me "event not found"11:21
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seb128Treenaks: what are you doing and where ?11:22
TheMusoAttempting to do a dist-upgrade on a Ubuntu install I have here. I can't seem to connect to the server. Anybody else having any problems?11:23
NoStressany idea ?11:23
Treenaksseb128: entering your gst-launch command line in bash in  an xterm11:24
Treenaksoh wait..11:24
Treenaksit only complains if there's only one !11:24
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seb128I don't understand what you are doing, but this command doesn't need to be escaped for sure11:24
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Treenaksseb128: try something in bash with only one ! in it..11:25
seb128ie ?11:25
Treenaksseb128: it'll try to find the last command with the word you put after the !11:25
Treenaksseb128: try "echo !gst-launch", for example11:25
Lathiat s11:25
seb128Treenaks: why ? The "!" are separator for the gstreamer command ...11:26
TheMusoI think you have to escape ! signs in quotes when using with echo, etc.11:26
Treenaksseb128: yes I know.. but it's ALSO command repetition in (at least) bash and zsh11:26
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seb128Treenaks: dunno why you're trying to repet stuff, but if you just use the command given some lines earlier it works11:27
seb128and you don't need to espace anything11:27
Treenaksseb128: I know that...11:27
seb128so what's the problem ?11:28
Treenaksseb128: it's just that it look weird to me, because I only use ! for repetition11:28
=== seb128 don't understand what you are trying to do
seb128oh ok11:28
Treenaksso I thought they needed to be escaped11:28
s7sI also wonder why 'Rythmbox' wont play my (legal)mp3-files? Its says that it needs some kinda plug-in.11:28
seb128s7s: because mp3 is not free11:28
seb128s7s: install gstreamer0.8-mad from universe11:29
digitalSurgeonseb: what about the mp3z that i encoded mysef11:29
Zindar53 upgraded <-- wow.. this close to release?11:29
seb128digitalSurgeon: the problem is with the format11:30
|trey|digitalSurgeon: the format is patented...11:30
Treenaksbetter use OGG11:30
digitalSurgeonwat about og vorbis ?11:30
digitalSurgeonogg is open/free ?11:30
Treenaksogg is free11:30
|trey|digitalSurgeon: OGG is patent free... would be better, yes.11:30
Treenaksand more importantly, patent-free11:30
gonzokiwiCan someone help me setup Tecra 8000 graphics?11:30
TheMusoAnd ogg sounds better. :)11:31
gonzokiwiTheMuso: Hi! I'm finally back...11:31
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|trey|gonzokiwi: search google for "<your_video_card> linux" and look for the module you need...11:31
gonzokiwiThe Muso: Ran dpkg-reconfigure... died, but seemed to edit file11:32
Treenaksgonzokiwi: dpkg-reconfigure died???11:32
TheMusoDid you run dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree8611:32
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soma22hy all11:33
gonzokiwiTheMuso: Yes, looks OK as far as I can tell...11:33
TheMusoBut you said it died.11:33
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soma22van valaki magyar?11:33
gonzokiwiTreenaks: Yes, error relating to a battery module said "expecting binary input", threw me back to console11:33
Treenaksgonzokiwi: scary stuff11:34
gonzokiwiTheMuso: Died, but I set a number of parameters first, and the config file seemed to update accordingly11:34
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TheMusoSo is it working ok?11:34
gonzokiwiTheMuso:No, only 640x480... in Device Manager says card capabilities unknown11:35
TheMusoOk. What resolutions have you got listed in your /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 file?11:35
Treenaksgonzokiwi: which driver did you select?11:35
gonzokiwiTheMuso: 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768 (LCD is 800x600)11:36
gonzokiwiTreenaks: It never asked me 11:36
Treenaksgonzokiwi: if you did dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 and got asked questions, the driver would be one of them11:36
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gonzokiwiTreenaks: Sorry, thought you mean during install... yes, I specified the correct driver there.11:37
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TheMusoThere is a neomagic driver.11:38
gonzokiwiTheMuso: Yes, selected the right one11:38
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mrjivedoes anyone cas suggest a development tool for python?11:40
dyni use vim11:40
mrjiveyes but a programmer coming from win and just converted to linux asked me this11:41
dyni see11:41
arturazat least gnome-vfs ain't broken in 2.8 :)11:41
arturazmrjive, there is eclipse11:41
arturazfor gtk11:41
arturazand eric3 for QT11:41
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dyneclipse supports python? which plugin does that?11:42
arturazdunno, i heard it11:42
=== TheMuso shudders at the thought of a QT editor.
arturazanyway - i use vim :)11:42
dyni use eclipse daily for java development11:42
dynbut never bumped into a python plugin11:42
=== TheMuso also shudder at the thought of QT :)
arturazi'm off to school11:43
umanwhat's new in gnome 2.8 compared to 2.6 ?11:43
arturazuman, lot's of fixed bugs, hal integration :)11:43
dynuman: http://gnome.org/start/2.8/notes/rnwhatsnew.html11:43
umanmight just build it on crux, they've just updated the port11:43
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krischandyn: coincidentially I read the word "eclipse" - tell me, is Eclipse easy-to-install on Ubuntu? In what repository can it be found?11:46
mrjivearturaz: tnx11:47
gonzokiwiIs a reboot required to update XF86Config-4 settings?11:47
krischanbecause I want to return to Java development with Eclipse too.11:47
dynkrischan: i always install all my development tools manually11:47
DethreadI use anjuta for all my development11:47
Dethreador vim :)11:48
dynkrischan: installing eclipse (after you have a working JDK is a matter of downloading and extracting the zip file11:48
krischandyn: I see, so you compiled Eclipse yourself?11:48
gonzokiwi...or anything else, so that the desktop offers new, relevent settings?11:48
dynkrischan: no11:48
TheMusogonzokiwi: Just restart X.11:48
gonzokiwiTheMuso: Its painful being stupid... how?11:49
Dethreadgood night everyone11:49
TheMusoGet out of your GNOME session, and back to a gdm prompt. Then go to a console, and type sudo /etc/init.d/gdm restart11:49
TheMusogonzokiwi: BTW We were all newbies at one stage.11:50
gonzokiwiTheMuso: Cheers mate...11:51
gonzokiwiTheMuso: IT WORKED! YAY! YOU ROCK!11:53
TheMusogonzokiwi: Good to hear that it works for you. :)11:53
gonzokiwiTheMuso: Mate, I'll kiss a sheep for you...11:54
=== TheMuso would rather you just enjoy your new settings.
TheMusoDOn't go to any trouble. :)11:54
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ivarq: is there a resource that defines how to configure all the nonstandard keys on a laptop keyboard (eg: volume control) ?11:55
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TheMusoI think this varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. Not entirely sure though.11:56
umanbtw, how do you start gnome without gdm11:58
umanI just don't like a graphical login11:58
dyn(echo exec gnome-session > ~/.xinitrc) && startx11:58
umanah, gnome-session in my initrc, thanks a lot :)11:58
dynit's nice to see someone actually *understanding* an answer, not just executing it ;)11:59
umanah, must be cause I've been on linux for over 2 years now, heh11:59
umanam just letting prt-get install gnome 2.8 with deps12:00
umanthat'll take a while12:00
Ngivar: The keyboard and keyboard shortcuts desktop config stuff should be able to do that12:00
NgI'd explain the loction better, but I'm not sitting at my ubuntu install ;)12:00
umanNg: what are you running on ?12:00
Ngright now I'm at work, running fedora core 212:01
ivarNg, thanks for the pointer.. I'll take another look12:01
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krischandyn: okay, JDK is already working. Where would you extract the Eclipse-SDK-ZIP to?12:01
dynkrischan: your choice really12:01
Ngsomewhere like /usr/local/eclipse maybe12:02
ivaror /opt/eclipse12:02
dyni prefer /usr/local/java/* for my java stuff12:02
umanI wished they'd do away with /opt and /usr/local12:02
Nguman: where would locally installed stuff go?12:03
TheMusoCan anybody remember what other Ubuntu mirrors there are? I am currently unable to connect to the Ubuntu site. Is anybody else having problems accessing it12:03
umanfor me it'd be fine to be just in /usr12:03
Nguman: that's less than ideal tbh12:03
ivarkremlyn, i just installed eclipse on ubuntu and (assuming you're using 3.0.1) you have to manually download the JDT as a seperate install12:03
Nguman: you end up with a nasty mix of things dpkg knows about and things it doesn't12:03
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TheMuso/usr/local is a must on any system. You can't put any old file in areas that the package manager watches.12:04
TibozTheMuso: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Archive12:04
umanon crux I just symlink /opt and /usr/local to /usr12:04
umanworks fine12:04
ivarhmm. xchat autocomplete's not very helpful.12:04
Nguman: of course it works, it's just a recipe for pain later12:04
=== Ng mumbles the old saying about unix giving you enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot ;)
housetierivar, it is helpful, you just have to tweak it to your needs :)12:05
umanI still don't see why binaries have to be all over the place12:05
umanwhat makes binaries in /usr/local special ?12:05
ivarhousetier, is there a way to enable the autocomplete to show you what name it's resolved ? 12:05
Nguman: that they're not managed by the system packager (ie dpkg/rpm)12:06
housetierivar, *cough* my bad really, I misread autocomplete as tabcomplete. I have to agree, autocomplete isnt reall helpful12:06
umanah, I don't use that, I have ports system :)12:06
umanI still think that it's stupid to have several locations for the same thing12:07
Zindarthe ports system is also a system packager12:07
ivarhousetier, but tabcomplete's new to me, and much nicer.. thanks for the tip ;)12:07
Zindaruman: nobody is forcing you.. screw your boxes up.. that's fine12:07
Tibozin xchat, you can have the old style tab completion 12:08
umanok, I'll stop to whinge12:08
TheMusoThanks Tiboz 12:08
NgZindar: he may well not screw up his boxes12:08
Tibozput 1 to this option in xchat.conf completion_old = 012:08
ZindarNg: if he puts misc binaries in /usr/bin he will sooner or later :)12:08
Tibozwhen xchat is not launched12:08
NgZindar: I agree it's likely, but it's not definite. at best we are pushing convention/tradition ;)12:09
umanhmm... seems like ftp.gnome.org is busy12:09
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TheMusoDamn. All those sites are on the one server. Is anybody else able to get to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/archive at all?12:09
lkp_yep, no problem from here12:09
TheMusoHmmm. Ok thanks.12:10
ZindarTheMuso, yeah.. that page gives a "create this page" thing12:10
housetierTiboz, one can also use /set, /set *tab* to show all settings with tab :)12:10
lkp_With capital A though 12:10
krischanivar: What is JDT? I thought Eclipse SDK is all one would need.12:10
Tibozhousetier: yeah also :)12:10
ZindarNg: well.. let just see :)12:10
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TheMusoI can't even get a connection at all.12:11
lkp_do we have any hotplug experts around?12:11
Tibozlkp_: you're having pbs with acpi and a thinkpad ?12:11
TheMusoZindar: The a in archive should be capitalized12:11
lkp_Tiboz: Nope a thinkpad but not acpi yet12:11
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=== TheMuso is now known as TheMuso_brb
lkp_I have my root fs on an external disk (USB2) and it fails when I enable the hotplug system 12:12
lkp_(Had to disable it to get it to boot at all!)12:12
Tibozi can't help you with this12:12
zahm1gdm wont start, using  radeon 9600XT 265mb12:12
umanI've heard that on some boots from USB you need some special timeout thingy12:12
umanat least from flash and USB hdds12:13
lkp_Did that by adding sleep to loadmodules in the initrd image.12:13
=== TheMuso_brb is now known as TheMuso
umanshame they didn't put a USB on my WRT54G12:13
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lkp_But when it enables hotplug it seems to reload the USB drive and that messes with the root file system12:13
mrjivehow can I see new packages in synaptic? i tried to make a filter and specify "new in archive" ma id does not work...12:14
TheMusoDamn. Seems that it is something to do with my connection/ISP. I don't want to reconnect due to a download happening. :(12:14
TheMusoSeems to happen every so-often12:15
Treenakslkp_: you could try adding usb-storage to /etc/hotplug/blacklist, but that might ruin it completely..12:15
Treenakslkp_: or it might work..12:15
umananyone know a good mirror for ftp.gnome.org ?12:15
Zindarftp.acc.umu.se :)12:15
Zindarna.. just kidding12:16
Zindarsame box12:16
lkp_Treenaks, tried that + the uhci/ohci to stop if from messing with me, but /etc/init.d/hotplug start still loses my rroot12:16
Zindaruman: what's the problem with ftp.gnome.org?12:16
TheMusoAh. Found myself a local mirror. Nice.12:16
umanand I was already editing my Pkgfile12:16
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umanit times out12:16
umanwhen getting vte12:16
Zindarhmm.. let me talk to ppl12:17
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Zindaruman: have you tried getting it over http instead of ftp?12:17
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umanI'll just try it out tomorrow12:17
umanit's just the ports system trying to pull it12:18
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mirHow do I mount ntfs in rw mode?.. the option rw (in fstab) does not seem to do the job12:18
umanI might just wget it12:18
Treenaksmir: it's not possible with the default kernel, I think12:19
TheMusomir: The native Linux NTFS driver doesn't work properly for writing, so is disabled by default for safety.12:19
dyndoes ubuntu installs clean out of the box to a sata hda?12:19
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Ngdyn: should do12:19
Ngdyn: I installed it to an SATA drive on a via controller12:19
Ng(the one built into my KT800 mobo)12:19
dynNg: sounds ok.. my n00b friend would need to install on sata12:19
umanhm, mc also doesn't want to connect to it, I'll leave it for later12:19
umandoes it put SATA drives on hde /etc ?12:20
Ngdyn: I think it should be fine unless he has an unsupported controller12:20
umanI mean /dev/hde etc12:20
dynuman: it uses sda/.. for sata using kernel >2.6.712:20
Ngsome of them put the drives through the SCSI layer12:20
Ngso /dev/sde etc12:20
umanah ok12:20
ivarkrischan, sorry was afk .. JDT == java development toolkit..  Eclipse is a barebones platform until you add stuff to it  12:20
umanI'll wait until I get a pci express board before bothering with sata12:21
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Ngdyn: I'm sure I've come across something still using the IDE layer for SATA, but yeah, they mostly seem to use SCSI now12:21
ivarkrischan,  JDT had been part of the stanard SDK until recently..  or maybe it's just the linux/GTK version that's seperate12:21
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Ngmy bad12:22
dynNg: just as i said, kernels around 2.6.5-2.6.7 used the /dev/hde,.. stuff12:22
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krischanivar: So, to be clear on this, I need Eclipse SDK + JDT in order to work properly?12:22
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dynkrischan: the SDK delivers with JDT by default12:23
Ngdyn: I think it was a later kernel than that, but I only used the controller once, so it could be my faulty brain ;)12:23
RochaGood morning12:23
ivardyn, i just installed eclipse sdk 3.0.1 gtk, and jdt was not included 12:23
dynivar: was it the SDK download? are you sure?12:24
RochaCan I make some bug reports here? I installed Ubuntu yesterday.12:24
krischanall very confusing ... well I am additionally downloading the JDT, just in case.12:24
ivarkrischan, well.. maybe I grabbed the wrong file :| , but if after installing you can't start a java 'project' you'll need the JDT12:24
__danielRocha, go to http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com12:25
ivardyn, i grabbed eclipse-platform-SDK-3.0.1-linux-gtk.zip12:25
Rocha__daniel, ok12:25
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__danielRocha, it's what i did some moments ago :-)12:25
krischanivar: Okay, I'll install SDK and then I'll see further. Thanks for your hints anyway, dyn and ivar. Now excuse me, it's time for me to go AFK.12:26
dynivar: that's the problem.. the eclipse-SDK-3.0.1* contains the platform PLUS the JDK12:26
dynivar: the eclipse-platform-SDK-wtf contains only the platform, no JDT12:26
mirTheMuso: I thought it was fixed in 2.6.x and that ntfs writing was reliable and not experimental anymore..?12:26
=== ivar bats his head
RochaUbuntu rocks, but there are some little things lacking.12:27
TheMusomir: That is the first I have heard about that. Mind you, I have no use for the module myself.12:27
vrlnis the ubuntu artwork meeting today?12:27
Keybukvrln: yes, 1600 UTC12:28
umanwhat UTC is it now ?12:28
danielsKeybuk: 1600?12:28
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mirTheMuso: I don't need it eaither... but I have some friends how have to converted 100% so they want it. :-)12:28
TheMusoI thought it was 1400 according to a post from jdub on the list earlier today.12:28
Keybukuh, 1400 UTC12:28
=== Keybuk did the math the wrong way :o)
vrlnanyone know what utc it is now :P12:28
Keybuk1500 BST ... I added rather than subtracted12:28
Keybukdescent scott% TZ=utc date12:28
KeybukMon Oct 18 10:28:54 utc 200412:29
vrlnok, thanks12:29
umanso in like 3.5 hours12:29
ivarq: is there a ubuntu firefox newer than 9.3 ?12:29
Keybukivar: we had 1.0PR1 packaged, but it just had too many bugs12:30
ivarKeybuk, so it's worse ?12:30
vrlnivar: the 0.10 version has some problems, but the 0.93 is security fixed anyway, even if it's the old version12:30
ivarok.. I'll just be happy with .93 and wait for the powers that be :)12:31
dyn1.0PR1 is out?12:31
mirAre there some Debian users here?... If so why would one go from debian to ubuntu.. I was very impressed at first, that everything was working default... but then as I was using it, it was just like my debian install so I thought, why run ubuntu?.. Anyone else have an opinion?.. I just want to hear others versions, this is *not* anti ubuntu or anything12:31
opi^workmir: different approach12:31
cbaoth_Less tinkering required... that's about it IMO.12:31
opi^workmir: more stable relaeases12:31
opi^workmore == quicker12:32
TheMusomir: GNOME 2.8.12:32
=== mrjive is away: eating too (much?)
ivarmir, i'm a relative newbie and what sold me was the realization that ubuntu == debian with funding12:32
Ngplus it's not that long since ubuntu forked sid. give them a bit more time to make their mark :)12:32
KeybukUbuntu is Debian for people who want to use their machine more than they tinker with it12:32
dynmir: expectable release cycles, fresh gnome stuff, some minor stability patches, the feeling of a 'distro', not a bunch of packages stuffed together12:32
ivaryay ! it's a ubuntu glee club :)12:32
TheMusoLaptop stuff configured out of the box, I.E speedstep. That is nice. :)12:32
umanmore of a desktop distro I guess12:32
ivaralso, #ubuntu is a decent resource.. where as #debian tends to be off topic or scroll too fast for those who consult xchat less frequently12:33
umanI must say, this channel is quite nice12:33
umanand I don't even use ubuntu12:33
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TheMusoThis is the first time I have been on #ubuntu and I thought it would be busier than this.12:34
umanI hope they'll bring out the fixed gmplayer for alsa12:34
TheMusoI dare say it probably does get busier though.12:34
Ngit will be busier when more of america is awake12:34
umanout of CVS12:34
ivarTheMuso, keep in mind it's 3:30 on the west coast..12:34
ivarof north america12:34
sean_I cant get mplayer to open a .ogm file to save my life12:34
TheMusoTrue. It is 8:30 PM here in eastern Australia though.12:35
mirOk.. Thanks for the comments.. just wanted to hear other opinions.. I personally was impressed with Ubuntu, but, as I have been running debian for a couple of years I feel I can configure it desktop firendly, so I was quickly back on debian again, as I did not see any advantage for me.. I run Sarge/testing... But Ubuntu was the distro needed to make my gf convert :-)).. and some friends.. they are really really impressed.12:35
umanTheMuso: where in OZ ?12:35
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dynmir: ubuntu is definetely gf-compatible12:35
dynmir: (after adding mplayer and w32codecs)12:35
TheMusouman: Sydney.12:35
mirdyn :)12:35
mirdyn: exactly what I did12:36
dyni use gentoo at work and installed ubuntu for my gf too :)12:36
Zindardyn: yeah.. my gf also liked it... especially the guy in the login screen :)12:36
dynshe loves it12:36
dynhaha Zindar12:36
dyndont fall back to the theme topic ;)12:36
sean_I so changed the login screen as soon as I could12:36
Zindardyn: hehe.. I'll try to avoid that12:36
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mirdyn: I love gentoo as well... I had some problems with kernel 2.6 on it, that why I don't have it installed at the moment12:36
dyngentoo takes shitloads of tinkering12:37
sean_grrrrr to mplayer12:37
dynsome love it (me) some aint12:37
dynbut it takes too much time sometimes12:37
dynand actually ubuntu feels really faster than my uber-tuning gentoo here at work with about the same config12:37
umansean_: iirc you have to tell mplayer where your codecs are when you compile12:37
dynwhich i couldn't really explain in spite of my background experience :)12:37
mirwell as soon as gentoo is up and running it is very fast.. So one should not do changes when one does not have time :).12:38
sean_I followed the directions to the t but I perhaps did something wrong12:38
Zindarwhat's really nice about ubuntu is also that ppl can support there software on it...  for example.. if I wrote a good software I wanted to distribute for many distributions I wouldn't put up a deb-sourse  for debian unstable.. it changes to much12:38
umanit's summink like --with-codecdir or such12:38
umanbeen a while12:38
dynmir: being a gentoo fan usually comes with upgrading all stuff at least weekly as i see :)12:39
umansean_: or try out xine12:39
mirdyn: Yepp.. I did upgrade quite often... I had no problems with it.. it was just doing its job in the background... just like apt-get dist-upgrade.12:40
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Zindarneed to find some dinner...12:41
Zindarlate dinner12:41
mirdyn: I think I have to buy a new computer before I can run Gentoo again.. 2.6 just wont run if I compile it myself.. 12:41
Keybukmir: I think one of the main Ubuntu goals is though you *can* install Debian and configure it as a decent desktop system, you only need install Ubuntu -- it's already configured for you12:41
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dynmir: what box you got?12:42
mirKeybuk: Yes, that is one advantage... thats why I wanted to hear debian user views... As I don't see it as a problem for a experianced debian user to configure his desktop to be as in ubuntu12:43
jv_i installed ubuntu for my family using finnish language and now some parts are swedish.. is there some way to "fix" it because i don't understand a shit :p hehe12:44
Keybukmir: of course not, Ubuntu *is* Debian configured to be a desktop -- by Debian Developers, largely, too12:44
mirdyn: Its a Athlon K7, quite standard one with linux compatible hw all the way... But 2.6 just wont work if I compile it.. The problem can lie somewhere between the keyboard and the hair, but I have not found anything yet... :-812:44
dynbetween the keyboard and the hair?! LOL! :)12:44
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dyni haven't heard that before ;)12:44
dynpretty smart 8)12:44
mirdyn: I meant chair :-)12:44
NgPEBKAC ;)12:45
dynnod :)12:45
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Keybukmir: tried booting with noapic and/or pci=noacpi ?12:46
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sly_alienis the package servers down or something? :S12:48
Keybukworks from here ...12:48
sly_alienwell i cant seem to access them :/12:49
TheMusosly_alien: You seem to be having the same prob as I did. You know there are australian Ubuntu package mirrors now?12:49
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sly_alienthere are?12:49
sly_aliennice thanks12:49
sly_alieni'll try that out12:49
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hazmatis there anyway to configure evolution, to use an existing spam folder?12:50
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mirKeybuk: Yes, I did, I even took a .config file from a kernel (2.6 precompiled) witch was working on my machine, and compiled it, and it did not work.. just did this to se if it would work...12:50
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TheMusosly_alien: There may be others, but I know only of that one, as it is a free quota source for me.12:51
TheMusoThat should be quota free.12:51
Deftdoes anyone know of any reported long start up time bugs?12:51
=== TheMuso hasn't exactly searched bugzilla for such bugs.
sly_alienTheMuso, yeah i've used that mirror before for other linux and it is fast for me :)12:52
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sly_alienshould i even bother trying to install ati drivers?12:53
Deftmy latest ubuntu install has two very long pauses in the startup process, one at the first "Starting ubuntu" point, and another at starting hotplug, anyone else got this?12:53
TheMusoDepends on whether you want/need 3D acceleration. I am using the dsriver that comes with X on my laptop, as I don't need 3D.12:54
polok_how do I add a locale using the command line?12:54
sly_alienhmm i cant even get to the security mirror :/12:54
TreenaksDeft: that could be, yes12:54
TheMusoI simply used the pacific line I gave you before for security as well and that seemed to work.12:54
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sly_alienah i can use that aswell ok12:54
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sly_alienTheMuso, what would the mirror for security be?12:55
NgDeft: starting hotplug can take a while, it's checking every bit of hardware and loading drivers12:55
Ngnot sure what the other one is12:55
TheMusosly_alien: Just replace the security.ubuntu.com portion of the line with mirror.pacific.net.au/linux/ubuntu12:56
sly_alienah ok12:57
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TheMusodeb http://mirror.pacific.net.au/linux/ubuntu/ warty-security main restricted12:57
TheMusodeb-src http://mirror.pacific.net.au/linux/ubuntu/ warty-security main restricted12:57
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DeftNg, however, on my debian install it was close to instant12:58
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DeftNg, strangely, on restarting the service on a running system, and looking at dmesg, all the messages are within 5 seconds of each other (too long, but better), for another 5 seconds there is no output at all...12:59
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sly_alienhow can i play mp3s?01:02
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Treenakssly_alien: install gstreamer0.8-mad from universe01:02
joh_sly_alien: check the "restricted format" entry in the wiki01:03
joh_it helped me a lot01:03
sly_alieni cant even get on ubuntu website01:03
sly_alienhopefully wiki works01:03
JanneMseems a little slow right now01:03
TheMusoNo it doesn't from here.01:03
sly_aliennah i cant go on from here :(01:03
sly_alienany idea why?01:03
TheMusoWell try the gstreamer0.8-mad package from universe.01:04
sly_alienyeah i will01:04
sly_alienjust wondering why i cant access the site01:04
TheMusoI am wondering the same thing, but have no real need for it at the moment.01:04
NgDeft: weird. bugzilla it, or start debugging hotplug :)01:04
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DeftNg, done01:06
Deftnow to start hunting again on not being able to boot windows! it's non stop fun reinstalling a PC these days01:07
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umanyou can always fdisk /mbt01:07
umanyou can always fdisk /mbr01:08
umanif you're desperate01:08
Defttried that (well, fixboot/fixmbr) no luck01:08
vjsanjayhow to install ubuntu from rh9 I am hving iso image in HDD01:08
Deftfixmbr doesn't actually seem to do anything though, it will tell me I have a non-standard/corrupt mbr, then after I tell it to overwrite it, it tells me that it still is nonstandard/corrupt01:09
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umancan you still mount your windows partition under linux ?01:09
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Deftprobably, haven't actually tried; I can cat from it definitely, so I know ntldr is in pace01:10
Deft* place01:10
umanDeft: all that the MSDOS mbr will do it to boot the boot sector from the "activated" partition01:10
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umanif you can't find such a partition with fdisk, windows won't be able to boot01:10
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Deftuman, the first partition is winxp on vfat, the start of the partition definitely looks like ntldr; all I do in grub is root, then makeactive, then chainloader +1 and boot01:12
DeftI think the problem is more fundamental though, as even overwriting grub with ntldr doesn't work01:12
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umanDeft: uhm, I only know lilo, but that looks ok for grub01:12
umandid you try to do a "repair install" thing from C ?01:13
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umanthat's what I love on linux, easy to fix such shit01:14
umanwindows is just such a bitch when it has to share the computer01:14
umansorry for the language01:14
Deftwell, I installed XP after ubuntu, aiming to overwrite grub, then reinstall it after; XP fails on it's first boot; ntldr gives a disk error, even though it's installed in the mbr and I used it's own tool to create it's partition01:14
mrjiveafter a successfull install on a dual boot machine with win2k, grub is not capable of bottin win2k... the answer is "NTLDR is missing"... probably it is a win2k ptoblem.. what do you think?01:14
umanthat's weird alright01:14
Deftso I haven't even got a finished install of XP01:14
umanI just dualboot with win9801:15
umancause I don't like ntfs01:15
umanbut it's been a while I've actually booted to win9801:15
Deftuman, XP Pro will do vfat if you want01:15
umanbut I don't have XP and I don't intend to pay for it01:16
umanI have a legal copy of win98SE, though01:16
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polok_my cdrom isn't listed as being mounted01:16
polok_but I can't get it out01:16
TheMusoHave you tried the eject command?01:16
Deftuman, I wouldn't pay for it; I get one from my uni department :)01:16
RochaI was going to install Ubuntu in this computer but it says "No common cd-rom found" and asks me for a driver! Strange.01:17
umanyou prolly pay for it with your fees01:17
TheMusoRocha: How old is the machine? And do you know how the CD-ROM is connected?01:17
polok_TheMuso: ta01:17
Deftuman, true, but I can't get out of paying them, so I'll just have as many software licenses as I get for it01:18
RochaHow old? P4 3GHz, DVD CD-RW combo, 512MB ram (not old, pretty new)01:18
umanyeah, why not01:18
umanif it's paid already you might as well take it01:18
Deftsounds like https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1532 is the bug if you read far enough, you might want to look mrjive, not sure if it covers you thing too01:18
TheMusoRocha: Hmmm. Have you tried any other installation of Linux on that machine?01:18
RochaI'm using Fedora and it didn't complain.01:18
umanthe point I'm making is that I don't want to shell out money to get a legal XP copy01:19
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umanif linux does all I want to do01:19
RochaTheMuso, it even recognized the sata hard disk01:19
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mrjivetnx Deft,i'll take a look01:19
TheMusoWhat CD image are you trying to install with?01:19
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jimihi 01:19
RochaThe same I installed at home, i38601:19
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TheMusoRocha: Yeah, but when was the image downloaded?01:20
TheMusoHi jimi 01:20
jimiare there new isos since RC1 ?01:20
RochaHmmm, last friday01:20
TheMusoThere are the daily ISOs I think.01:20
jimii cant find anymore the daily isos link T_T01:20
umanmy neighbour is some IT support person, of course all his customers are on windows01:20
TheMusoRocha: Ok so that is the RC1 image it seems.01:20
umanand he asked me the other day how to circumvent the "10 user" problem with XP01:21
uman10 users, hhaHAHAHAHAHA01:21
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RochaTheMuso, last iso is dated 13-Oct01:21
jimihum 13 oct is RC101:21
TheMusoYep, thats RC1.01:21
umanmy samba server doesn't care how many users01:21
jimidoesnt work on my computer :p01:21
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TheMusoHave you looked into any of the boot options available on the CD?01:21
kentSo the Ubuntu which is released now is not the final version, its just a pre-release? When is the first release due?01:22
jimikent 20th oct01:22
RochaTheMuso, nop01:22
RochaTheMuso, i'll wait for the final release01:23
kentjimi, thanks.  Then all i can say is that the pre-release Im running right now is very nice :) Ive had no problem at all.01:23
=== TheMuso grabs his CD-RW with Ubuntu RC1 on it, and reboots it to see if there are any boot options.
Rochakent: Ubuntu is the best linux distro ever :)01:23
RochaTheMuso, thanks01:24
Rochakent, there are some things that I don't like, but in general, it's the best.01:24
umanit surely has some nice artwork01:24
jimidaniels, are you there?01:25
RochaThere are some little things that should be corrected though.01:25
kentRocha, i like the fact that you get a fine configured gnome desktop in just a few clicks. A graphical installation would be nice, though.01:25
TheMusoRocha: The best thing to do is to through the CD in, and boot from it. WHen you get the Ubuntu logo on screen, press the F1 key and read the instructions there. That will lead you to various options that can be entered. There is too much to be listed on here.01:25
RochaWith just a few clicks? You don't even have to click anywhere, the default installation rocks. :-)01:26
jimirocha : install problem?01:26
jimimy install process fails too01:26
Rochajimi, not at home, my at my lab yes.01:26
TheMusoRocha: maybe you need to enter options such as noapic or nolapic01:26
jimiim gonna try with another cd, i think01:26
RochaThis computer is where I do compiler investigation.01:26
RochaTheMuso, ok, i'll try that after lunch01:27
jimibut it works fine without network, but with network, base-install process fails when trying to install kernel package01:27
TheMusojimi: Well just install off the CD, and choose to not install software from the net, and try and get the network set up post-install.01:27
RochaI just use this computer for java development, not as a desktop so any linux distro works.01:28
jimii will 01:28
RochaBut I just wanted to install ubuntu to show to my collegues here.01:28
jimibut i would rather wait the bugfix and get a flawless install process =)01:29
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rexiboyhello all01:32
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rexiboytrying to get firewire workin, can some 1 point in the right direction plz?01:33
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Hmmmmm_guys when's warty due?01:35
Noodles2 days IIRC.01:35
sanitariothe schedule says tomorrow, right? 01:35
robtayloryo. so, if i want to make a custom live cd using ubuntu as my base, whats the best place to start?01:35
sanitariohm, 20th01:35
Hmmmmm_Noodles, if i download and innstall the beta version can i then upgrade to the final release?01:35
NoodlesThere should be very few, if any, changes between now and release.01:36
Hmmmmm_can i then just apt-get the updates?01:36
Hmmmmm_is gnome 2.8 stable in warty?01:37
kentHmmmmm_, yes. I have had no problems at all with gnome.01:37
Hmmmmm_kent, thnx01:37
Hmmmmm_fedora just sucks sooooo much memory that i wana dump it01:38
Hmmmmm_i just want my mails to be safe01:38
Hmmmmm_how do i back up evolution 1.46 mails?01:38
Hmmmmm_can i just "cp -a /home/user/.evolution"?01:39
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kentHmmmmm_, Fedora should not differ that much in memory usage. Since if you run gnome from Ubuntu and gnome from Fedora it should be mostly the same +- some patches which should not make any difference..01:40
Hmmmmm_kent, actually i felt a sea change is speed after i installed ubuntu01:41
maswanI meant:01:42
Hmmmmm_i hav a 1.1 gig celeron machine with 256 mb of RAM. fc2 runs S-L-O-W01:42
maswandaniels: on a not so awesome note, about half the time I don't come back up from suspend01:42
Hmmmmm_and ubuntu just zipz01:42
Hmmmmm_i duno why... frankly i dont care why01:42
danielsmaswan: have you got centrino wireless?01:42
Hmmmmm_im moving to ubuntu01:42
maswandaniels: yes01:42
Hmmmmm_always wanted to move to debian but felt too lazy to install it01:42
danielsmaswan: ahr, bong01:42
maswandaniels: translation needed. :)01:43
danielsmaswan: will put up -0ubuntu2 or -2 or whatever with the fix soon01:43
danielsmaswan: bong -> crack01:43
maswandaniels: thanks :)01:43
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rexiboyso the stable release will be much the same as this one?01:45
rexiboyapt-get update should do the trick?01:45
TheMusodaniels: What suspend to disk features are your X40 packages using, or do they not yet support suspend-to-disk?01:46
Hmmmmm_rexiboy, i think "apt-get upgrade" ought to do the trick. correct me if i'm wrong01:46
danielsTheMuso: they just suspend to ram.  it uses 5% of battery every 8 hours.  just today, I ran the battery to 0, then kept watching a movie for half an hour (after it hit zero, after it fired an annoying three-beep pattern at me a couple of times, after the two-beep pattern), and it kept on going; after that, it was in s3 (suspend-to-ram) for about ... maybe an hour.01:47
rexiboyHmmmmm_, that's good, because I got everything working and would like to keep it like this...:)01:47
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Hmmmmm_can anyone pls tell me how i can backup my evolution 1.4.6 mail so I can happily move to ubuntu?01:48
danielsunless you have a desperate need to hibernate for like a week, there's not much point :)01:48
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janljust 5%?01:48
TheMusodaniels: Hmmm. Know of any way that I may be able to test whether the suspend to ram scripts would be as effective on an R50?01:48
danielsjanl: right01:49
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janlso if my battery is fully unloaded after one nights suspend, ive got a problem?01:49
danielsTheMuso: measure battery charge.  suspend to ram.  time.  resume.  measure battery charge again.01:49
danielsjanl: running on an x40?01:49
janlno, R5101:49
sanitariodaniels: so your usb doesn't get b0rked after a suspend? 01:50
vrlndaniels: do you know if the nv driver will support the geforce 6800 at some point? the current nv driver in xorg and xfree86 doesn't work01:50
rexiboyany ideas how to get firewire workin?01:50
umantry the nvidia one then01:50
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zahm1anyone know a good radeon-drivers howto for 9600xt?01:51
danielssanitario: the scripts have rmmod ehci_hcd and modprobe ehci_hcd, in them01:51
janldaniels: 100% loaded, new battery, suspened around 10pm. 8am next morning the battery is completly empty01:51
vrlnuman: yes it works perfectly of course, but I was just wondering since it would be nice to be able to use the open source one too01:51
danielszahm1: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BinaryDriverHowto01:51
danielsjanl: are you using the thinkpad-x40-support package?  http://people.ubuntu.com/~daniels/x40/01:51
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janldaniels: ah no, sorry, maybe i just hijacked your discussion with maswan that was very x40-specific :)01:52
sanitariodaniels: oh, ok... but it loads properly when you resume? 01:52
danielsjanl: heh, yeah, it's quite x40-specific, sorry :)01:52
danielssanitario: yeah, absolutely01:52
maswanjanl: you don't have a x40? pfft. :P01:53
janlmaswan: :)01:53
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sanitariodaniels: that's so unfair :/01:53
janleverything works perfectly (except for that damn softmodem), except that it seems to use alot of power while suspended01:54
danielsjanl: what sort of laptop is it?01:55
janldaniels: thinkpad r5101:55
danielsjanl: unless you're explicitly doing echo 3 > /proc/acpi/sleep, you're not actually suspending :) just turning off the cpu01:55
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janldaniels: that exactly what im doing :)01:56
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janldaniels: and if i rmmod ehci_hcd first, it even actually suspend :) and no trouble waking up later01:57
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saniwoohoo, it works01:59
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ondrejwhat I miss in ubuntu is some better support for road warriors :-( I use my nb at two locations at work (eth0/static and eth0/dhcp), at home (usb CDMA modem)02:00
janldaniels: could the "_bios"-part in acpi_sleep have something to do with it perhaps?02:00
ondrejand it's hell to reconfigure my interfaces each time I change location02:00
shadywhat does modprob FATAL error Inserting hw_random means ? 02:00
danielsjanl: shouldn't be02:00
danielsbut give it a shot02:00
danielsshady: not a problem02:01
shadydaniels: what do you mean not a problem i get very nervous when I see "FATAL" something :/ 02:01
janldaniels: ill do that, thanks!02:02
danielsjanl: hm weird, are you just using acpi-support, or acpi-support-x40?02:02
Kamionit's FATAL to modprobe itself, but not to the system as a whole02:02
shadyso there's nothing I'm suppose to do to fix that ? just learn to live with that ?02:02
danielsshady: it means someone was sloppy and forgot to tell modprobe to be quiet; basically, modprobe's saying 'I couldn't do what you asked me to', but what modprobe was asked to wasn't critical to the system02:02
danielsshady: just irnore it, yeah02:02
danielsjanl: no worries02:02
danielsjanl: google is often your friend for stuff like that.  with so many wacky kernels around, you often get advice covering every conceivable situation, as I did with the x40.02:03
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shadyok, another problem I installed ubuntu twice and I got the same weird partition problem solveable only by testdisk 02:04
janldaniels: yeah, ive search around some, but haven't found any hints, just people having trouble waking up from suspend02:04
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janldaniels: but ill try the s3bios-thingie02:05
danielsjanl: ah, heh02:05
danielsjanl: try removing all the modules you can02:05
danielsand just see if you can track down which module is the problem02:05
danielsipw2[12] 00 is known to be a problem02:06
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janldaniels: ah,, have though of that..i just though i was done with the rmmod:ing when i got it working at all02:06
janldaniels: aah, ive got a ipw2200, that probably the problem!02:06
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maswandaniels: you just need every laptop manufacturer give you a laptop of all the different configs and models.. hmm.. and an hour or two of every day extra for hackery. :)02:07
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu:sabdfl] : Artwork Community meeting here at 1400 UTC: http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/WartyWarthog_2fArtwork FAQ: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/ | Wiki: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ | Lists: http://lists.ubuntu.com/ | Bugs: http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/
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janlmaswan: du ocks helsld p ubuntu?02:07
maswanjanl: nepps, hpc2n fortfarande02:08
maswanoh, helsld, inte heltid. :)02:08
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maswanjanl: well, it's like debian, but stuff just works. :)02:08
maswanMithrandir: you're late :)02:08
janlmaswan: yepp :)02:08
Mithrandirmaswan: nah, I was before on my screen, slow IRC net, you know. :)02:09
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maswanMithrandir: ok, so we need a free and independant poll to answer this importan question02:10
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JanneMjanl: what chipset is it in that laptop?02:11
Mithrandirmaswan :)02:11
sanitariook, now my usb works after suspend, but not my pcmcia02:12
janlJanneM: well, um...lspci says something about  82855PM 02:12
JanneMwonder how close that is to a 855GME02:12
JanneMjanl: you have 802.11a, b and g?02:13
janlJanneM: im a little bit suspicious, the back side of the computer is still warm during suspend02:13
janlJanneM: g02:13
JanneM1.1Ghz, or is it faster?02:14
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janlJanneM: and the wireless-LED dosnt turn off when i rmmod ipw220002:14
JanneMjanl: it should not stay warm, no02:14
danielsjanl: try running ifconfig eth1 down, first02:14
janlJanneM: 160002:14
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janldaniels: no difference, still on02:15
janlhm, right now, the ipw2200 is my main suspect... :)02:15
umanwlan can suck some power02:16
danielsjanl: ah well02:17
sabdfljanl: i have problems with the ipw2200 on a test toshiba laptop, i don't think the driver is very mature02:17
sabdflhmm.. latest version is ipw220002:17
janloh, just to be clear, the led turns off when i suspend, but just not immediatly when i rmmod02:18
umansabdfl: I think most linux drivers just try to get it working02:18
umanthe advanced stuff might be hard to implement due to lack of information from the manufacturer02:18
janlim running ipw2200 0.1002:18
janlmaybe ill just be patient and wait for the driver to mature02:19
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Mitariohmm, are there any ideas to have a somewhat more user friendly update mechanism for ubuntu?02:19
umanI use wlan with ndiswrapper and the windows driver02:19
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shadywhere is the list of the sources for the packges in ubuntu ?02:19
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Mitarioi'm writing some UI mockups here, but i don't know if anyone else has already started this02:19
umanbut because it's a desktop system I've never looked at power savinf02:20
|trey|shady: /etc/apt/sources.list02:20
umanUI mockups ?02:20
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Mitarioyeah, as in, a more user friendly UI to ge updates02:20
umanso you are designing some frontend ?02:20
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Mitarioi mean, how the hell should a windows newbie switched to ubuntu know that it should start synaptic, click on refresh, click on 'mark packages with newer version' and click apply02:21
janlbut ive got some starting points now, s3bios and rmmod ipw2200, we'll see tomorrow when i wake up if they help :)02:21
umanI agree02:21
mvo_Mitario: try "synaptic --upgrade-mode"02:21
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umanI think that is what I like most about the idea of ubuntu, to make an easy to use distribution02:21
umanI always though it'd be nice to have some "02:22
uman"drag&drop" package management02:22
umanpeople could just pull of a package from some site, and it'd install all the deps without them having to do much02:22
umanand you could show the deps in some tree of nodes or such,and it getting each node02:23
Mitariomvo_, I would rather have some easy status page/app with a list of security updates or program updates somewhere ;)02:23
Mitariowhich could then call 'synaptic --upgrade-mode' for that matter02:23
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umanI think in the end people would like some graphical representation of a package manager02:24
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umanas nice as it is for geeks, most people don't want to have to deal with CLI02:25
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Mitariouman, well, synaptic is graphical : )02:25
mvo_Mitario: I'm interessted to see your mock-ups. there is a tray-icon based upgrade-notifier in development: http://people.debian.org/~mvo/upgrade-notifier-0.32.tar.gz02:25
Mitariomvo_, ok, i'll announce then as soon as they are ready :)02:25
mvo_Mitario: please do :)02:26
umanso it'll show up when there are updates available ?02:26
umanin your tray ?02:26
mvo_Mitario: will the mockups be glade files ?02:26
mvo_uman: yes02:26
umanvery good02:27
Mitariomvo_, i think i'll just make some .pngs first :)02:27
mvo_uman: double clicking on it will present you a list of upgradeable packages02:27
Mitariowith some global ideas02:27
mvo_Mitario: fine as well. I'm looking forward to it!02:27
umanmvo_: this assumes that the upgrade will work... what happens if there is a problem during it ?02:27
JanneMif there is a problem the system can't resolve by itself, stuf is broken and will need human assistance in some form02:28
mvo_uman: that's a tricky one. in general it will work as good as apt-get (and that's pretty good). 02:28
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JanneMone way would be to roll back the update and wait a wef hours02:29
mvo_synapitc supports this with the menu item "Fix broken packages"02:29
umanas far as I understand, ubuntu is heading for a distribution that is user friendly02:29
Mitariomvo_, going to integrate your upgrade-notifier in the mockups too, so i'll try that one out first :)02:29
JanneMoften a problem is due to some temporary problem on the server02:29
umanas much as I prefer to change things in the guts, I see the need for such a distribution02:29
mvo_Mitario: it should work ok, but it's in a early stage, so please tell me about any problems you may have02:29
Mitariomvo_, sure :)02:30
mvo_JanneM: agreed, good point!02:30
umanI'll have to install ubuntu and give it a test drive02:30
TheMusouman: You will indeed.02:30
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Mitariouman, be ware: you would be able to turn back from the uberbeautifulness of ubuntu02:31
Mitariowill not*02:31
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Mitariomvo_, is it a daemon <-> app which puts a widget in the tray via libegg or is it an applet?02:32
mvo_it's a daemon that uses libegg02:33
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mvo_we discussed about using a applet, but we agreed on going with a tray icon02:33
Mitarioright decision IMO, this way you could use it X-desktop environment02:34
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mvo_yes and you usually want the information only if upgradable packages are available02:34
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Mitarioso eum, what's the way to test it ? don't have any upgradable packages atm :)02:35
trip_outhi guys - i have a little problem when trying to burn an iso using nautilus.  Basically the iso file seems to get registered with another app the moment I right click on it.  I see the write to CD option for less then a second, then the icon changes from a cd to a gnome foot and the option disapears.  any ideas?02:35
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Mithrandirtrip_out: which architecture are you on?02:36
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Mithrandirargh, I thought seb128 had fixed that bug.02:36
mvo_Mitario: tricky :)02:36
trip_outmaybe - im doing apt-get upgrade as i speak02:36
Mitariomvo_, hehe :)02:36
Mithrandirthe problem is that amd64 actually does what the code tells it to so it misidentifies .iso files as .arc files.02:36
seb128Mithrandir: the fix is not trivial02:36
mvo_Mitario: I can make you a screenshot from my box (plenty of upgrades needed)02:37
Mithrandirseb128: sure it is, remove the x-arc entry, since it's wrong.02:37
Mitariomvo_, yeah, would be great :)02:37
trip_outso im gonna have to install k3b or something02:37
seb128Mithrandir: the entry is right02:37
Mithrandirseb128: no, it's not. :)02:38
Mithrandirseb128: do the math by hand and you see it doesn't make any sense.02:38
seb128Mithrandir: the code is wrong02:39
seb128wait, I'm looking for the upstream bug02:39
Mitariomvo_, i have to go shopping, be back in about 15mins02:39
mvo_Mitario: ok, just ping me when you are back02:39
Mitariomvo_, k, ty02:39
Mithrandirseb128: tell me how       <match value="0x0000081a" type="little32" offset="0" mask="0x8080ffff"/>02:40
trip_outon another completely seperate issue, does anyone know how i can switch the default sound card?02:40
Mithrandirmakes any sense?02:40
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umanthe bit I'm getting at is that I'd like to help the spread of linux and ubuntu seems to fill the gap of an easily used linux distro02:40
umansorry for the long dealy, had some phone conversation going02:41
trip_outi have an onboard chip which has the system uses, yet I want the PCI card to be used instead.  It is seem in the Gnome mixer - I just can't use it02:41
umantrip_out: can you disable the onboard card in the bios ?02:41
seb128Mithrandir: https://freedesktop.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=150702:41
trip_outyes - but i don't really want to. ultimatly i want to be able to switch between the two as i have headphones connected to the onboard one for late nights:)02:42
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Mithrandirseb128: no, that's not the problem.02:43
umantrip_out: you could recompile your kernel with those sound support as modules02:43
umanthen just load the one you want to use02:43
Mithrandirseb128: the problem is you are using strtol, not strtoul.02:43
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seb128Mithrandir: this one is http://freedesktop.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=150602:43
seb128Mithrandir: these are 2 differents issues02:43
trip_outi expect they are already modules, i was wonderring if there was a simple text file that makes one card default02:44
moose6589heh i'm a linux noob, i just have simple question.. i've been trying to install gaim 1.0.1, so i extract to a folder, navigate there using cd, then type ./configure02:44
finn_is there a guide somewhere for how to upgrade a kernel 'the ubuntu way'?  i'm trying to get ndiswrapper working and apprently first i need to upgrade the kernel.  i've tried googling and the wiki didn't seem to have anything on this02:44
umantrip_out: probably the startup I'd assume02:44
Mithrandirseb128: can you please remove x-arc modules as it (as you can see) breaks cd burning on amd64?02:44
umanwhatever gets loaded first rules02:44
Treenaksmoose6589: you'll want to use the gaim package, compiling is not necessary02:45
moose6589it says no acceptable C compiler found in $PATH02:45
trip_outi'll have a little play in a bit - thanks uman02:45
seb128Mithrandir: you just want to remove the mime entry for it as a workaround ?02:45
Mithrandirseb128: yes; arc packages are _very_ rare.02:45
umanfinn_: are you sure that the kernel needs updating ?02:45
moose6589but my question is actually compiling in general..02:45
moose6589it doesn't ever seem to work02:45
finn_well, the wiki entry on getting ndiswrapper to work says that i need to02:45
Mithrandirseb128: I agree it's not the right fix, but it means we won't see this particular instance of the problem, and it's too late to fix it properly now.02:45
JanneMwhat _is_ an arc package? I don't think I've ever encountered it02:45
umankernel >2.4.23 should be fine for ndiswrapper02:45
Treenaksmoose6589: you'll most likely want the package, either from main or universal, but if you REALLY want to compile, apt-get install build-essential02:46
trip_outMithrandir: whats my fix then?02:46
MithrandirJanneM: ancient packaging format, similar to zip.02:46
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trip_outaah thats why archiver tries it...02:46
Mithrandirtrip_out: remove the section which starts with "  <mime-type type="application/x-arc">"02:46
TreenaksI used to download .arc files from BBSes using xmodem 8)02:46
Mithrandirin /usr/share/mime/packages/freedesktop.org.xml and then run sudo update-mime-database02:46
seb128Mithrandir: agreed02:46
trip_outfrom where?02:46
JanneMi'm from that time as well, and I can't remember seeing it02:46
umanfinn_: what kernel version do you have now ?02:46
opi^workTreenaks: BBS, eh? Good o' memories ;)02:47
Treenaksopi^work: I used to be 2:283/507.4 on fido :)02:47
opi^workI couldn't get to Fido ;)02:47
finn_uman, the stock one that comes with warthog RC, and installing ndiswrapper-utils wasn't enough to get ndiswrapper to work02:47
umanfor wlan you'll need ndiswrapper and wireless-tuils02:48
umanI don't know how ubuntu does it... maybe I SHOULD install it, heh02:48
finn_uman, it complained about a missing module or something, and http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/howto/helpcenterhowto.2004-10-07.7773155363 says i need linux-image-* or later02:48
umanI've used ndiswrapper with 2.4. kernels fine02:49
trip_out?? Usage: update-mime-database [-hv]  MIME-DIR02:49
umanas long as they were 2.4.23 or later02:49
laxHi, i installed Ubuntu RC1 and everything went fine in stage 1 installation, but when i rebooted into the stage 2 installation everything was fine until i got an error about ubuntu was not able to install all the packages. Then an aptitude window came and showed me the missing packages. I don't wan't to download all them. Can somebody help me?02:49
finn_the wireless config part isn't the problem, ndiswrapper isn't being happy (and i managed to get it working with gentoo)02:49
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=== hmrocha_ is now known as Rocha
trip_outdo it on /usr/share/mime/packages/ ?02:49
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umanfinn_: I'll better stop blabbing, I'm not eaving running ubunti02:50
umanI shall soon, though02:50
Mithrandirtrip_out: /usr/bin/update-mime-database /usr/share/mime02:50
RochaWhy does Ubuntu use the gnome icon theme instead of "Human" ?02:50
finn_that's cool, i'd be running it right now if i could work out how to get my wireless card working with it... laptop with no net connection is like a large paperweight02:50
umanI still use crux atm02:51
umanfinn_: if you want a nice live CD, mepis has working ndiswrapper and wireless tools02:51
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dyni'd love to see the gonxical gtk theme being shipped at least if not even default02:52
dynas well as the gartoon icon theme02:52
dynthe most lovely ones for gnome02:52
trip_outthat did it thanks! Just one more... How do I blanks a CDRW?02:52
lax Hi, i installed Ubuntu RC1 and everything went fine in stage 1 installation, but when i rebooted into the stage 2 installation everything was fine until i got an error about ubuntu was not able to install all the packages. Then an aptitude window came and showed me the missing or broken packages. I don't wan't to download all them, they were about 2 gb i think. And that's the reason i can't use ubuntu in text mode i think. Can somebody help me?02:52
dyntrip_out: cdrecord dev=<whatyougot> blank=fast02:52
Rochatrip_out, in gnome 2.6 you can't blank a cdrom, you have to use the command line02:53
Rochatrip_out, maybe in gnome 2.8 they have corrected that bug02:53
thomRocha: the human theme isn't complete yet02:53
Rochathom, will it be in the final release?02:54
umanah, ftpgnome.org is back up :)02:54
thomso we're using gnome for now02:54
maswanuman: it was down?02:54
thomprobably not, i think02:54
umanwell, I had problems getting into it02:54
uman2 hours ago02:54
umanis fine now02:54
trip_outokay, thanks - thought this was 2.802:54
TheMuso_What distro are you using trip_out 02:54
TheMuso_ubuntu has 2.802:55
trip_outthats what i thought!02:55
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trip_outits gonna be a long day today i can tell ;)02:55
=== uman is just getting 2.8 from sources
TheMuso_That was one of the main reasons I switched from Slackware to Ubuntu on my laptop.02:55
trip_outi hosed a Gentoo install, good opertunity!02:56
=== uman is still happy on xfce4
TheMuso_Is it possible to kill old nicks that crapped out?02:56
umangome should lump some stuff together02:56
maswanuman: ok, I see no signs of a problem around that time either02:57
umanmaybe it's just me02:57
maswanuman: had you said a couple of days ago...02:57
|radioTheMuso usually pinging it helps, causes timeout on the server02:57
maswanuman: we've had a few stability problems, so..02:58
umanmy ISP's proxy is sometimes a bit weird02:58
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trip_outthat doesn't seem to blank it - either that or nautilus doesn't see that it is blank03:01
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mirak_-hi hi hi03:08
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lucas_isn't the meeting supposed to be now ?03:08
lucas_what time is it UTC speaking ? :)03:08
mirak_-lucas_, 1 more hour03:08
Treenaksma okt 18 13:08:42 UTC 200403:08
lucas_oh ok03:08
RochaThere are some bugs with the localization of Ubuntu03:08
Treenaks"TZ=UTC date"03:08
RochaI have to change XF86Config by hand to set the keyboard to portuguese03:09
mirak_-rocha, what is different about the keyboard layouts????03:09
TreenaksRocha: no, you can use dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 for that03:09
mirak_-rocha, I have only seen us keyboards03:09
uman:has used a german keybaord03:10
RochaI have a portuguese keyboard, and XF86Config should have set the keyboard to "pt", not "us"03:10
RochaTreenaks, thanks03:11
umanRocha: maybe you should become part of ubuntu then03:11
umanget involved03:11
RochaThat would be great03:11
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lucas_Rocha: which language did you selected during install ?03:12
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seraphwhiprush, rawr03:12
RochaI'm a bit busy right actually because I'm doing functional languages research03:12
Rochalucas_, english03:12
RochaBut I set the keyboard to portuguese03:13
lucas_Rocha: that's why it selected the us keyboard03:13
Rochalucas_, but the command line (bash) is set to portuguese03:13
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lucas_you might want to file a bug then03:13
Rochalucas_, ok, i have filed 2 already today :)03:13
__danielRocha, you did   dpkg-reconfigure locales  ?03:13
seraphI have a question, what is "bouncing cow"03:14
seraphI've not seen this one yet03:14
Rocha__daniel, nop, I never used a debian linux03:14
Treenaksseraph: it's a screensaver03:14
__danielRocha, sorry, didnt read the whole discussion03:14
lucas_file it against xserver-xfree86 and say you are not sure about the package you should file against :)03:14
seraphah ok03:14
=== seraph goes to see
Treenaksseraph: the picture of a cow, bouncing on an off-screen trampoline03:14
__danielRocha, well, try it :-)03:14
RochaI have never used the dpkg system.03:14
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lucas_Rocha: no need to dpkg-reconfigure locales03:14
lucas_it is not a locales problem.03:14
RochaAlways redhat, suse, and now fedora, which all use rpm03:14
lucas___daniel: basically, locales are for output, not input :)03:15
__daniellucas_, sorry - well didnt read the whole conversation - it's the way i configured my box to have different locales03:15
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__daniellucas_, sure? :-)03:15
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lucas___daniel: yes.03:15
RochaI just changed the keyboard to "pt" and then gnome says that the X configuration is different from Gnome's and asks me which I want to use.03:15
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crabboxRocha: use the x one03:16
Rochacrabbox, yes, I did that.03:16
tsenghm, looks like stuff in debian mallirat is getting ahead of warty03:16
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Rochabut the problem is that my mom wouldn't know how to change that.03:16
tsenghas anyone backported?03:16
mirak_-why does it say that I cant join #ubuntu (you need a registered nick) but it lets me in anyways????03:16
lucas_Rocha: don't forget to reportbug, it's important to improve ubuntu's quality03:17
RochaAnd the wonderfull thing about Ubuntu is that my mom actually could use it.03:17
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lucas_Rocha: I think the problem is X guess the keyboard to use using the language you selected during install03:17
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RochaEverytime I want to test a Linux distro, I use my family :-)03:18
RochaThey don't know how to use windows, so they are great test subjects.03:18
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__danielRocha, i wish i could say that about my family :-)03:19
staticactivityafter i made an apt-get upgrade, the permissions of .ICEauthority file changed to root:root, I had to Ctrl-Alt-F1 and change the permission manually03:19
staticactivityi was not able to login otherwise03:19
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RochaOne of the things that i reported is that the usb pen drive contents pops up when i insert it, but when i close the window, there is no way of knowing how to open it again.03:19
Treenaksstaticactivity: did you run a program as root?03:19
Treenaksstaticactivity: an X program ?03:20
__danieldoes anyone in here use any arabic locale?03:20
TreenaksRocha: the icon is on the desktop03:20
staticactivity<treenaks> yeah, gedit i guess03:20
RochaTreenaks, no its not, at least on my computer.03:20
umanRocha: maybe there should be an icon on the desktop ?03:20
Treenaksstaticactivity: that's the problem then03:20
Rochauman, an icon on the desktop or an entry in Computer->Disks03:20
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staticactivity<Treenaks> but with sudo03:20
Treenaksstaticactivity: still..03:21
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umanI presonally don't like this automounting stuff03:21
umanbut I guess it's nice for newbs03:21
staticactivity<Treenaks> okay, thanks for clearing that03:21
RochaSince Ubuntu doesn't use the desktop for displaying icons, it should only be in "Disks"03:21
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RochaAutomounting is great :)03:21
TreenaksRocha: no the desktop does show mounted disks by default03:21
JanneMuman: I like it. I always manage to forget exactly how to access all the various gadgets I got03:21
RochaTreenaks, strange, my pen drive didn't show up.03:22
umanI like it if it doensn't show extra icons03:22
RochaI had to open /media/sda1 and create a link on the desktop03:22
TreenaksRocha: strange03:22
umanbut I should really shut up, I haven't even installed ubuntu03:22
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Rochauman, yup, its a great ideia03:22
umanI just came in here because I liked the artwork03:22
TheMusoISP upstream carrier outages are wonderful. :)03:22
tvonuman: heh03:22
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RochaThe artwork is of minor importance, the usability is what counts.03:23
umanthe two young women and the man are now my wallpaper03:23
umanVERY god03:23
umanRocha: true03:23
RochaThe first thing i changed was the wallpaper :D03:23
tvon|x31I'm not so into the brown in general03:23
RochaGnome 2.8 is a masterpiece in usability03:23
lucas_I find it inappropriate for most usages03:23
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TreenaksRocha: wait for 2.10 :)03:24
umanRocha: I agree, linux has advanced to a stage where it should be easy to use03:24
umanand it's mostly not done due to lazyness 03:24
jimi2.1 ?03:24
Rochajimi, 2.1003:25
umanit's the job of the geek to make it easier for the noob03:25
sanitariotwo dot ten03:25
umannot to be elitist03:25
tvon|x31versions are not not decimal numbers03:25
jimiwheres the gnome roadmap, to see the features? :)03:25
Rochawww.gnome.org maybe03:26
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jimiok ;)03:26
tvon|x31somewhere from developer.gnome.org03:26
JanneMI think the brown, earthy, color range is very calming and comforting 03:27
JanneMdidn't realize how much I actually dislike blue/gray until I started ubuntu03:27
RochaThe colours of ubuntu are great03:27
RochaJanneM, :)03:27
umanit's also very warm/human/earthy03:28
dynand a bit boring too maybe03:28
dynafter a longer time03:28
JanneMI'm a bit conflicted; I like the color theme, but at the same time I have a favourite background image that is bluish03:28
umanthere have been too many cold blue themes03:28
RochaI have some C stuff to code, bye ppl, nice talking to you.03:28
mirak_-rocha, you will mis the meeting03:28
jimibye rocha!03:28
RochaWhat meeting mirak?03:29
umanwhat's the UTC now ?03:29
jimimeeting about artwork?03:29
mirak_-artwork meeting,,,,,,,starts on 30 mins03:29
Treenaksuman: TZ=UTC date03:29
jimicool =] 03:29
mirak_-well 30-ish mins03:29
umanI shall just stay here to witness it03:29
umanhow long will it go ?03:29
Rochaok, i'll just become away instead03:29
dyneveryone's invited?03:29
Rocha14:29 here03:29
jimii dont have lot to say, but will gladly read the meeting03:29
RochaI don't think i'm using utc03:30
mirak_-dyn, I would assume so, it is a public channel03:30
dyni've seen irc meetings with voice control on03:30
JanneManybody can be here, yes03:30
Keybukjimi: GNOME releases aren't feature-based, they're time based03:30
dynchannel +v, few ppl talks :)03:30
JanneMnot sure how they'll organize it, though03:30
Keybukso the features in 2.10 will be any that are finished in time03:30
Rochamirak_, i'll be here for the meeting, you can count on me03:30
dynthat's why i asked03:30
=== Rocha is away: coding a distributed file system
mirak_-rocha, I just didn't want you to miss it...................03:30
jimikeybuck : hum ok.. thats why i cant find it on the site hehe03:30
janli have a question about about automounting. I have a small UMS-device, it mounts just fine, and the icon pop up and everything works. However, when i try to unmount the volumy through nautilus, it fails, complaining that the device is busy. Some investigation shows that famd is holding the device.03:31
=== dyn is back - back from saving the world again :P
JanneMdyn:  if they do, I expect it is only to run messages through a coordinator so people don't all shout at the same time03:31
janlany idea how to tell famd in a nice way to let go of the device?03:31
Rochamirak_, when it starts you can write my nick, it highlights03:31
JanneMjanl: thought that had been fixed?03:31
janlive killed famd manually a couple of times.. and google dosn't help much03:31
mirak_-rocha, rocha, no prob03:31
umanjanl: you might want to try running sync03:32
mirak_-rocha, if im not too busy, as I am at work atm03:32
umanjanl: if there is still data in the write buffer it won't umount03:32
Rochamirak_, i'll try to pay attention03:32
jimiuman : umount isnt suppose to sync itself?03:32
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Rochayes it does!03:32
janlim pretty sure ive synced, famd is the only one holding the device03:33
Rochaumount, syncs and umounts!03:33
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mirak_-rocha, ad a "-" to the end of mny name....mirak_ is my name at home...use "mirak_-" here03:33
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Rochamirak_-, ok :)03:33
umanall the distros I've used you had to sync yourself first03:33
JanneMjanl: that has been an old problem, but I'm sure I've read somewhere that it had been fixed03:33
umanunmount wouldn't do it by itself03:33
mirak_-rocha, nvm nothing special happens on this client to tell me you are talking to me........03:34
janlJanneM: ok,maybe i havnt tried it since the last upgrade03:34
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umana sync won't hurt anyway03:34
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Rochauman, strange! I use linux since 98 and it always synced before unmounting03:34
umanRocha: I've found that especially flash USB drives won't sync on umount03:34
Ngit should do03:35
umanI always have to sync first03:35
Rochauman, I don't03:35
Ngit should just hang until the writeback is flushed, then unmount03:35
Ngthat's how my mp3 player behaves03:35
umanit just will say it's busy03:35
Ng(or behaved, until I started mounting it synchronously ;)03:35
Nguman: that means there are open inodes, not that there is a buffer to write03:35
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RochaI can copy Eclipse to a pen drive, it gets virtally copied instantly, and when I unmount it, only then Eclipse gets copied.03:35
NgRocha: yeah. does that really annoy you? ;)03:36
umanI've jsut got so used of using sync that I don't worry03:36
RochaNop, I think it's the best thing ever. :)03:36
umanit'll unount fine03:36
NgRocha: fair enough, I found copying stuff to my mp3 player extremely annoying until I sync mounted it ;)03:37
mirak_-couldn't you just pull out the device???, or would that cuase damage?03:38
Ngif the buffer hasn't written to the device yet that will corrupt data03:38
mirak_-<-----newb sorry03:38
Rochamirak_-, yup, that would cause damage because the files may have not been written.03:38
Ngthe kernel keeps some disk data in memory to try and make the machine feel faster. when you unmount a disk it has to actually make changes to the disk itself.03:39
mirak_-rocha, but only damage to the data, corredt03:39
RochaYup, not physical damage.03:39
mirak_-rocha, kk03:39
finnis security.ubuntu.com down at the moment? i can't seem to do an update03:39
mirak_-rocha, good to know03:39
mirak_-finn, do you need an update, my system has no new updates needed???03:40
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RochaI don't know why I can't install ubuntu here03:40
TheMusofinn: Are you able to conenct at all? I am on WestNet in NSW, and found out that my ISP has an upstream carrier problem. It may be effecting you.03:40
JanneMwith solid-state thingies like USB memories you really want to avoid writing too much anyway. Better to buffer changes until you _have_ to write it all once03:40
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JanneMyou only have som many write cycles, after all03:41
NgJanneM: there is a lot of merit to that argument, but waiting 5 minutes to unmount after it already said the copy was done is too annoying imo ;)03:41
finnTheMuso, ah, that could be it.  i'm with internode, but international websites are working03:41
JanneMNg: well, ok :)03:41
NgJanneM: you'd have to be writing a hell of a lot to hit the limit, it's usually like 100k cycles or something ;)03:41
Ngbut you are right :)03:41
JanneMisn't it more like 5-10k?03:42
finnTheMuso, no, can't ping at all03:42
RochaNg, just put this in your mind, "putting files in a pen drive is the same as putting files in a cd"03:42
mirak_-wow, I didn't know that you only have so many write cycles.....03:42
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Rocha...only written when you "burn" them.03:42
NgJanneM: I guess it'd depend on the flash memory in use. I've only poked around the iPAQ, which was about 100k cycles03:42
NgRocha: no, because it's not the same :)03:42
JanneMmirak_-: well, you only have so many with hard drives as well...03:42
RochaNg, it's not the same but you can think of them as the same.03:43
JanneMmirak_-: you just generally have no idea how many until you find out the hard way03:43
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RochaEven your hard disk behaves that way03:43
mirak_-nannem, hmmm....maybe that's why on my last reformat I showed bad sectors????03:43
NgRico: I don't tend to unplug my hard disk and walk away though ;)03:43
RochaYou copy file x to file y and it is not actually updated03:43
mirak_-Jannem, hmmm....maybe that's why on my last reformat I showed bad sectors????03:43
RochaThats you the kernel syncs the memory with the filesystem on shutdown.03:43
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JanneMmirak_-: well, possible03:43
JanneMmirak_-: anything mechanical will have a limited lifetime after all03:44
mirak_-jannem, but it was a yoper install, an I heard someone else have the same problem, so I blame it on yoper03:44
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RochaNg, :)03:44
JanneMmirak_-: your machine - you decide what to blame :)03:45
RochaIs anyone here developing for Ubuntu?03:45
Ngmirak_-: there is a tool called badblocks that will scan the whole drive and remap any knackered bits. It can take *ages* on a big drive though03:45
Ngplus it changes the disk, so it might eat your data ;)03:45
Ngbut it seems to be ok03:45
zenwhen_is AIM down for anyone else?03:45
RochaJanneM, usually the problem is between the monitor and the chair. :D03:45
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Rochazenwhen, i use msn, not aim03:46
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zenwhen_I was checking to see if AIM was just down for me03:47
zenwhen_I cant just use msn because most of the people I know only use AIM.03:47
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RochaIn Portugal, almost everyone uses msn, not aim :)03:47
lucas_Rocha: not only it .pt ;)03:48
AndyFit1aim is fine for me here.  not that talk to many people on it 03:48
umanuse gaim then03:48
umanI mostly use yahoo03:48
RochaGaim sucks for me, no proxy support03:48
umanbut gaim supports many networks03:49
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RochaI don't have internet at home, only at faculty, and I'm behind a proxy server.03:49
umanI'm mostly on yahoo, so I use a chat client for it anyway03:49
RochaOnly amsn works, gaim doesn't03:49
AndyFit1im proud to say the majority of the family, friends and developers contacts on my buddy list are jabber or irc.  then msn then icq then aol then yahoo  03:49
RochaEveryone should use jabber03:50
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RochaYes, it's a free protocol03:50
=== mirak_- googles jabber
chowellsdoes ubuntu have a run level service editor?03:50
JanneMit's actually a little sad that I can access samba shares with no problem at work, but there is no painless way of sharing data between two Linux machines03:50
Rochamsn is proprietary03:50
umanthe problem with jabber is that not many people use it03:51
RochaI only use free software03:51
JanneMwon't iChat support Jabber?03:51
umanJanneM: how about NFS ?03:51
lucas_JanneM: it will03:51
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JanneMuman: not exactly painless to setup03:51
RochaJanneM, isn't that the Apple client?03:51
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umanI thought it was pretty easy03:51
umanyou can still use samba on both if you must03:51
JanneMI've been looking for a way to have cht with my girlfriend03:52
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mirak_-will all of my gnome apps work under xfce4????03:52
JanneMuman: setting up nfs isn't something I could guide a friend over a phone03:52
JanneMmirak_-: yes, if you have the libs installed03:52
RochaI'm implementing an NFS server and client, please don't speak NFS again :D :D :D03:52
mirak_-jannem, well I use ubuntu....so I assume I do.....03:52
RochaIt's not really NFS, but is very similar.03:53
JanneMuman: I don't think I could do it myself and be absolutely sure I've covered all security implications03:53
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Kinnisonmirak_-: they should. They won't be as well integrated (potentially) though03:53
lucas_Rocha: distributed ?03:53
lucas_you know about NFS-P ?03:53
RochaYup, distributed.03:53
jimi-need for speed?03:53
NgNFS-HP > *03:54
Rochajimi-, network file system03:54
Rochalucas_, unfortunatly in C03:54
JanneMwould love something simple over ssh/scp03:54
mirak_-kinnison, that is ok, I just want to go out on my own a bit......without going too deep, for learnings sake03:54
lucas_Rocha: which language are you using ?03:54
JanneMthe nautilus integration to make it painles isn't there yet, though03:54
Kinnisonmirak_-: xfce4 is a pleasant little desktop environment then :-)03:54
Rochalucas_, [14:54]  <Rocha> lucas_, unfortunatly in C03:54
zikadeJanneM, try unisono...03:54
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Kinnisonmirak_-: It is at least GTK2 based :-)03:54
NgJanneM: I really like the nautilus sftp stuff :)03:54
lucas_Rocha: isn't NFSP C ?03:55
JanneMzikade: unison is nice, but not really what I mean03:55
Ngbut you can mount things over ssh without using gnome-vfs03:55
JanneMNg: I have big problems getting it to work03:55
mirak_-kinnison, what is this GTK2 stuff, and yes it is nice, but I am torn between gnome and xfce403:55
NgJanneM: doh. It talks to a variety of redhat/debian boxes fine for me :(03:55
JanneMmirak_-: xfce4 also uses gtk203:55
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mirak_-kinnison, but for now I decided on xfce4, like I said, to go out on my own a bit03:55
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Rochalucas_, i'm using C but I would prefer another language03:56
Kinnisonmirak_-: gtk2 is the toolkit on top of which both gnome and xfce4 are built03:56
JanneMNg: how do you do a remote mount with ssh?03:56
mirak_-kennison, jannem, ok.thnx03:56
lucas_it's difficult to do system-related code in something different from C ...03:56
JanneMNg: imagine that you need to explain it over a not-very-good phone line to someone who doesn't know what ssh really is03:57
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RochaNot true. Eveything in windows is not done in C.03:57
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kfischerHi everybody03:57
RochaAlmost every book on operating systems uses Java.03:57
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NgJanneM: I forget exactly the details of it, but there are various userspace filesystems for Linux, one of which used ssh to mount remote things (ssh can tunnel data for other applications)03:57
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lucas_Rocha: have you read OS: design & implementation ?03:58
RochaC is used because most code is written in it.03:58
JanneMNg: ideally, you'd right-click on a folder in Nautilus and mark the "allow other computers to use this folder"03:58
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Rochalucas_, no, just "Operating System Concepts"03:58
NgJanneM: ok, fair point, it's not *that* advanced yet. It will get there though03:58
JanneMit will03:58
NgI think some work in that direction has already been done03:58
RochaC should die, it a very old language.03:58
lucas_the problem with doing system coding in Java is that it will be difficult to test your code on real world apps03:58
RochaAn operating system is being writeen in Python, as we speak03:59
Keybukold doesn't mean bad though03:59
JanneMjust a little sad that we're almost there for samba already, but not for something Unix native03:59
KeybukRocha: but Python is written in C ... :o)03:59
jimirocha : oh, interesting, whats the project name btw?03:59
RochaKeybuk, not necessarily, you have implementations in Java.03:59
Rochajimi, ununumium i think03:59
RochaKeybuk, and I'm sure there are implementations of python written in python04:00
dynit's not pure python04:00
NgJanneM: UNIX's heritage doesn't fit that too well though04:00
dynit got everything as i've heard to run a python interpreter04:00
mirak_-metting starts real soon!!!!!!!!04:00
dyna pure python stuff would be to run a kernel which interprets python at kernel level :)04:00
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umanzinc runs in pythin04:00
RochaYou don't need to interpret python, you can compile it.04:00
jimiOS names are getting worse 04:00
mirak_-start time is now on my watch04:00
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Rocha15:01 here04:01
dynhaha Jimi04:01
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RochaAnyone here is a Ubuntu developer?04:01
bob2_Rocha: quite a few are04:01
pittiRocha: me04:01
umanshouldn't the big meeting start now ?04:01
Rochapitti, i'll talk to you after the meeting then04:02
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mirak_-how long is the meeting??04:02
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JanneMuntil it's done, I guess04:02
pittiRocha: would be better04:02
=== uman wil shut up now and just watch
jimiwhere is the meeting master :s04:02
mirak_-sounds good....i get paid by the hour04:03
kfischercould have guessed that answer :)04:03
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JanneMwell, I meant it seriously :)04:03
kfischersure you do - but still ...04:03
sabdflmorning, afternoon, evening all04:03
JanneMas in "it will take as long as it takes to resolve the stuff"04:03
=== mode/#ubuntu [+o sabdfl] by ChanServ
mirak_-well, the devs could be out of it in a half hour, but we could keep it going all day04:03
kfischeror more, if i read all the posts properly04:04
umanhalf an hour ?04:04
umanI thought it'd be on now04:04
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sabdflplease take a quick look at that page and let me know if there's anything else we need to cover04:04
umanor maybe in an hour from now04:04
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RochaHelloWorld, thanks for comming.04:04
JanneMlooks like a pretty complete summary to me04:05
sabdfli expect this will take one to two hours to get a sense of which way we should go04:05
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SepheeBearthere's a bouncing cow in Ubuntu?04:05
seraphAs someone from an Islamic country (who is Indian, not Malay or even Islamic) such as Malaysia, I can say that any dress that isn't Islamic in the nature of its modesty will not be acceptable to the government here. In my opinion keeping images of humans off the artwork would be best.04:05
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pittiSepheeBear: a screen saver04:05
seraphPersonally I have no problem with it, but ...04:05
kfischersabdfl - agreed04:05
JanneMSepheeBear: one of the screensavers04:05
thomSepheeBear: yeah, xscreensaver04:05
seraphpeople here were like OMG04:05
Ngnot the cow! noooo04:05
sabdfli'll work through that list one item at a time and invite people to comment04:05
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seraphwhere are the devs?04:05
seraphwho's chairing this meeting btw?04:05
sabdfli don't want to get into an argument, so this is less a debate than a calling for opinions04:06
umanyou could have 3 tuxes holding hands04:06
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pittiseraph: they are right here04:06
sabdflseraph: i'm chairing04:06
yfiri thought this was about the 'default' status of the splash screen, not removing things04:06
seraphsabdfl, shall I direct statements at you?04:06
yfircow should stay :)04:06
jimi+1 uman04:06
sabdflseraph: go ahead, when i call for it04:06
crabboxcows are sacred at India and it might give bad expression04:06
seraphsabdfl, ok04:06
=== seraph sits and waits
digitalsurgeoni have no problem with cow04:06
SepheeBearthat cow is awesome!04:06
digitalsurgeonut i think it was a stupid screen saver04:06
sabdflok, this channel is unmoderated, and i'd like to keep it that way04:06
thomsabdfl: might want to +m whilst you lay out details04:06
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sabdflthom: ok, just for five minutes04:07
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sabdflhi all04:07
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu:Keybuk] : Artwork Community meeting here now: http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/WartyWarthog_2fArtwork FAQ: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/ | Wiki: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ | Lists: http://lists.ubuntu.com/ | Bugs: http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/
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sabdflwe will just moderate for a few minutes while i lay the groundwork04:07
sabdflwe are going to work through each item on http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/WartyWarthog_2fArtwork04:07
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sabdflin each case im going to invite people to give their view04:07
sabdflbut not to argue with one another04:08
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sabdflwe are trying to get a sense of the diversity of views, not resolve the unresolvable04:08
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sabdflwe'll try to keep this channel unmoderated04:08
sabdflplease read the code of conduct (link in the wiki page)04:08
sabdflplease respect that04:08
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sabdflif someone doesn't respect that i'll point it out to them directly04:09
sabdfland if that's enough, will ask the ops to +q them04:09
sabdflbut i don't think it will be needed04:09
sabdflok, let's go, thom could you remove the +m please?04:09
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=== Keybuk pretends to be thom briefly <g>
sabdflthanks Keybuk04:10
sabdflthank you to everyone who's contributed to the mailing list and forum discussions04:10
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Mitariomvo_, back :) took a while :p04:10
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sabdflcan i call for views on the distinction between default and available items in the artwork?04:11
sabdflplease each person put in your views, once only04:11
jdub(might want to clarify the question)04:11
seraphsabdfl, I do not understand the question quite right04:11
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umandefault should be very basic trying to be generic, non offensive04:11
whiprushnor me04:11
pittiavailable is okay, default "no" IMHO04:11
sabdflwhat i'm looking for is a sense of how important the default is in terms of universal acceptance, if alternatives are available04:11
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Keybuk[Wiki]  Is the existence of the artwork a problem even if it is not the default?04:11
TelepI believe it's most sensible to have a simple, abstract theme by default04:11
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GallivantI'd say the default's pretty critical04:11
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opi^worksabdfl: I think default theme should be as plain as could be04:12
yfirI'm fine with the images themselves, but I understand why they would cause some "rumbling" among certain groups or in certain places. Hence, should not be default, but still available.04:12
seraphthe default artwork as it stands is a no go04:12
whiprushI think the default is crucial to the initial acceptance of the distribution as  a whole. 04:12
mirak_-ahh, default to me makes no difference, as long as it is easily and redily changeable04:12
HelloWorldopi^work, not plain, but simple04:12
danielswe provide kde and other stuff as well -- hell, you can find fortunes-off if you want.  it's the difference between this potentially, being perceived as poor taste on the behalf of ubuntu, or as someone else.  anecdotally, the barrier to offence for the latter would seem to be far higher; there seems to be a higher degree of conservatism expected from shipping products.04:12
HelloWorldthey're different things04:12
GallivantI think the artwork's okay if it's not the default.04:12
seraphdefault artwork that was acceptable would be a bonus04:12
morgsIf default is conservative (!=plain) : alternatives are acceptable04:12
opi^workHelloWorld: ok, simple's better word04:12
JanneMas seraph mentioned, there are a good deal of people that would not accept the artwork as default. At the same time, many people really do like it. So the question really is how available it should be - on the CD, downloadable package?04:12
theantixI think it's highly important that the default is widely acceptable04:12
danielsi don't think anyone would have a problem with Ubuntu if it was merely *available*.04:12
kfischerI think as default it would be nicer, it gives a happier impression. Which might be especially useful for the novice Linux-User04:12
limi|londonhow about an option on install? "clean" or "photos"?04:13
opi^workI think you can set something with Ubuntu logo04:13
yfirit's also important that ubuntu's default is distinct04:13
sabdflok, let's ask the question in a different way04:13
pittiDoes anybody actually think that having the images available would _not_ be acceptable?04:13
opi^workand let me to download this fine GDM login screen with apt-get install gdm-artwork04:13
sect2ksince you can not please all the people (for various reasons), having a simple, "neutral" default is the wy to go.04:13
crabboxunfortunately business world requires mild artwork...04:13
thomlimi|london: we're trying to reduce number of questions, so that's a no go :-)04:13
JanneMseraph: from your horizon, is the login screen a problem? I know that would probably be acceptable here, even if the other images aren't04:13
cbaoth_I don't see any problems with the artwork being available, but it's not worksafe as a default... unless the bloke takes a shirt on. :p04:13
limi|londonok ;)04:13
sabdflthe login screen has no nudity, but it's certainly more aimed at fun than work04:13
yfiri don't buy the "the default art should be as plain as possible" argument04:13
hernan43crabbox: yeah i almost got burned on a reboot04:13
seraphJanneM, its not at all acceptable04:13
JanneMseraph: ok04:13
seraphJanneM, the splash is worse04:13
HenrikA large number of basic users will not know how to change the default, or know that it can be changed, or want to spend the 2 minutes required to find out.04:14
seraphthe calendar is obscene here04:14
GallivantThe splash, IMHO, is the worst part04:14
umanI liked it, but I can see people having issues with it04:14
seraph( not my opinion, just the populace here )04:14
deweyI have no problem with the current login I like it myself.04:14
RochaHenrik, you're right04:14
sabdflif our target audience is "ordinary people", should we still ship a default login screen that is oriented to the corporate, when corporates are likely to set it to suit them anyway?04:14
seraphpersonally, I am cool. but natives are .... not04:14
HelloWorldi actually like everything all around, but some people might have issues with the "naked people"04:14
yfirwhy not just change it to a non-default status. then everyone is happy, no?04:14
dyndefault artwork will paint the first impression of the distro. it will get published in reviews, articles, etc. it should definetely fit the target user base (fun or work usage scenarios, etc)04:14
thomsabdfl: i think the real issues are that corporates will not set it, but simply not use it04:14
sabdflseraph: please don't debate other's views, just state your own04:14
pittisabdfl: yes, because if they see it the first time, they might be embarassed04:14
tsenga) to me it seems out of place, looks more like an ad in a womens magazine than a linux distro, b) its controversial in non-western areas04:14
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JanneMwell, as seraph points out, "ordinary people" in plenty of places would have problems with that default as well04:14
littlepaulchange the "nude" images ;-)04:14
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thom(where the latter "it" is the distro)04:14
danielssabdfl: i personally think we should go for least-possible-offence caused.04:14
darkersatanicI think there is definitely sufficient cause to change the current artwork.04:15
yfiri mean, is anyone aguing that the current image MUST be the default? i don't think so04:15
jdubit's inappropriate for a large audience of 'ordinary people' too, plus it goes against our 'greatest common factor' goal of the desktop.04:15
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darkersatanicI don't know if there would be a problem with shipping the current artwork as an option.04:15
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kfischerYes. Definitely. It shows that it might be fun to use Ubuntu...04:15
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crabboxeasiest way is to make universal theme which does not offend anyone and then do other (the nice looking ones) as themes which you can select04:15
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opi^worksabdfl: I love this GDM screen, and don't find it ofensive, funny this is, after reading all this talks on ML I've stumped on flash-ad on big portal with naked females. Noone complained. Females in bra are even better. 04:15
seraphsabdfl, personally, I dodge my mother just logging in04:15
umanit's fine as an option, but should not be default04:15
GallivantIt may be installed, but our hypothetical corporation is probably going to see selecting it as no different than downloading and selecting it.04:15
lucas_I personally liked the theme used during beta test (the one with the globe), and was very disapointed to see it replaced.04:15
seraphat college, on the laptop, I had to dodge lecturers04:15
yfiri liked it too04:15
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dynthe current artwork goes into dangerous directions. many people would refuse even to have a closer look because of the first impression of the distro suggest that it's not for them04:16
bdri use the globe one still - downloaded it off the wiki04:16
yfirdangerous directions? haha04:16
seraphso it bothered me socially04:16
SepheeBearhand out t-shirts, snap another picture, make that default..... and there STILL will be people who'll want to gripe about it04:16
krischandyn: to engage the former discussion again: where in the file system would you recommomend to place a already-compiled application, and why?04:16
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yfirit's hardly dangerous. it's tacky  because it looks like a Beneton comercial04:16
crabboxtry to use human theme at middle east and you get sacked for good04:16
dynkrischan: i thought we're in an artwork meeting :) i guess we'd rather stick to the topic and get back to that when we end04:16
brosenI showed the art to my mother :-) But I don't think it should be default04:16
GallivantThe problem with citing Benneton is that the wiki explicitely cites that as an inspiration04:16
seraphyfir, its obscene here. I can't use it. I was embarrassed the first time it appeared.04:16
umanyou could leave is as an optional "theme" but not as default04:17
theantixhaving the current artwork by default also makes Ubuntu known as "that distro with naked people" for better or for worse04:17
JanneMmany people do like it, though - and the calendar is a great idea - so it shouldn't be dumped altogether either04:17
jsci liked it , but i can see how it would be a problem in some situations... make it an option to install ... but not the default04:17
opi^workIm kinda surprised that people that face adv-p0rnography, TV sex and nudity are ofended by people that are not naked :-)04:17
lhbmy wife thinks its awesome04:17
seraphopi^work, here non of that is legal :)04:17
sabdflopi^work: please don't get into a debate about other's values, just speak for yourself04:17
opi^worksabdfl: ok04:17
RochaHow can anyone think of nudity when using ubuntu??!!?!?04:17
dynkeeping the current artwork will pretty soon tag ubuntu as the 'gay distro' indeed. we've already discussed this briefly this morning, many ppl i know reacted like that04:17
opi^worksabdfl: maybe a switch while installation would be helful?04:18
Rochadyn, are you crazy?04:18
pittiPersonally I find the images distracting, and I would be embarassed to have them in the Uni or in a company04:18
cbaoth_First impressions matter I'm afriad.04:18
seraphsabdfl, I'd say that the artwork was highly professional, but needs to be toned down a lot04:18
opi^worksabdfl: ,,what evn. are you targetting?'' corporate/home04:18
seraphpitti, same sentiments04:18
serapha corporate theme is confidence inspiring to home users04:18
TelepIt's not only non-western areas where it's controversial - my girlfriend said straight away that the splash and wallpaper were clearly more erotic than anything else.04:18
sabdflwe are not pushing for the corporate market at this stage, it's a nice-to-have04:18
yfirso if issue is: should these images be default - does anyone insist that they are the default? i mean, just make them available but not default and everyone seems to be happy04:19
dynso it's a clean home/fun distro in its current market positioning?04:19
pittiMy gf was not happy with them either04:19
JanneMand don't lose the calendar idea04:19
flubiein eastern culture, it is not acceptable, not to mention if you use it in universities or schools04:19
maswansabdfl: the student-taking-laptop-to-school market though?04:19
opi^workpitti: OTOH, mine was :-)04:19
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lucas_I don't have a gf, but changing the theme might help =)04:19
littlepaulwhat about some Zulu warriors? http://www.africamasterweb.com/AfricaMbebe/ZuluWarriorsSit.jpg ;-)04:19
mirak_-my gf thinks its fine......doens t se a problem, nor a reason to debate04:19
crabboxcalender is good thing04:19
sect2kit's quite simple, if even one potential user is offended by this artwork, it should be a no go04:19
dyndrop it then04:19
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maswansect2k: I disagree04:20
lkxno drop, but optional ...04:20
pittiDisplaying humans and animals of any kind is simply not acceptable in Islamic religion04:20
opi^worksect2k: no way04:20
mirak_-sect2k, we would then be left with shell only04:20
kfischer_How about a simple question during install with a thumbnail showing what is going to be installed and the option to replace it by something different?04:20
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yfiryou'll never please everyone. eventually, someone is going to be offended and you'll have to draw the line04:20
opi^worksect2k: If I dislike Gnome, should Ubuntu drop it?04:20
Telepand that was my first impression too - a naked lad touching two naked girls certainly didn't scream out "people caring for each other in a totally non-sexual fashion" :D04:20
whiprushif the target is the home user you shouldn't write off a business segment either.04:20
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limi|londonbash is pretty offensive in itself ;)04:20
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JanneMsect2k: I doubt you could find even one solid color that doesn't have a negative connotation somewhere04:20
jimimicrosoft is targetting not corporate, and spending M$ about such topic, they never put people images on themes (not to copy them, but to notice)04:20
jdubcorporate market may only be "nice to have" at the moment, but there's a lot of active interest, and it would be unwise to endanger the opportunity04:20
pittikfischer_: I like the thumbnail idea, especially in our text-based installer :-)04:20
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RochaWhat I think is, I there is someone against the "people" gdm image, you should take it out.04:20
whiprushjdub: exactly what I wanted to say04:20
BenNovackThere's a difference between "Not actively gunning for corporations" and "actively pissing them off"04:21
RochaEveryone should agree, there should be no discussion at all!04:21
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chris_No one ever complained about the old theme.  This new one is obviously causing problems.  I don't see why there even needs to be a meeting about it... :)04:21
kfischer_pitti, but that is your problem, not mine :)04:21
RochaIf a significant ammount of people doesn't like, remove it.04:21
maswanRocha: there would be someone against that particular shade of gray for a single-colour slab gdm screen04:21
JanneMto put it this way then: do people see a problem with having the theme available on disk but not the default?04:21
opi^workbut leave it, so I could install it04:22
pittiargh, netsplit04:22
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opi^worksome split04:22
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yfirjanne: me personally, available but not default04:22
opi^workback on topic04:22
dyni dont think it'd mean a problem04:22
brosenJanne - that's fine04:22
crabboxleave it on the disk but not as default04:22
sect2kbare in mind that what offends people and what people dislike is not one and the same04:22
mirak_-jannem, I don't see why that would be a problem04:22
theantixsabdfl: if you set a precent now with the artwork, in the future corporations and conservative orgs might be unwilling to commit even if the defaults change04:22
Rochamaswan, it should be a reasonable ammount of people.04:22
Telephaving it on the website would be enough imho04:22
SepheeBearthe more it pisses people off the more i like it04:22
BenNovackJanneM: Seems fine to me.04:22
jimi+1 yfir, in the theme manager04:22
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maswanyeah, available but not default would be a good solution04:22
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krischandyn: Artwork meeting? Sorry, that passed me by!04:22
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RochaThis kind of discussion won't help.04:22
sect2kthe fact that i dislike brown color, does not mean i am offended by it04:22
dynkrischan: see topic :)04:22
krischansabdfl: I think opi^work does speak for him-/herself.04:22
seb128_I agree with available but not the default04:23
RochaI like the image a lot, if it's causing complaints, remove it.04:23
lucas_http://blop.info/screenshot.jpg <= screenshot of the GDM theme that was used during beta test - the one I preferred.04:23
daniels(the last anyone on this side of the split saw was 07:17 <@sabdfl> opi^work: please don't get into a debate about other's values, just speak for yourself)04:23
thaytanany LVM smarts aboot?04:23
polokg'night everyone04:23
maswanyou'd still get in trouble in some ME conutries, but, well, not much you can do about that really..04:23
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sabdfldo we have everyone back from the split?04:23
flubiedefault, no. alternative, ok.04:23
darkersatanicI think available but not default is a good option.04:23
dyni like the image too (love it actually), it's something new, something else, but still, it'd make too many people turn away from the distro04:23
Telepquite so04:23
yfirmy view as well: imagery is fine, but not as default. 04:24
HenrikI also agree with 'available but not the default'04:24
umanit just depends on how global you want to make it, if it has to be "all the planet" you'll have to do it very neutral04:24
sabdfllets skip to the next section of the wiki page04:24
seraphI disagree04:24
The_BellI agree with dyn04:24
BenNovackI think "available but not default" is the consensus04:24
opi^work'available but not the default' for me, too04:24
seraphit should not be associated with ubuntu04:24
umanif you want to have some artistic freedom in it, you'll have to leave some folks out04:24
sabdflcan we have any default images that depict people at all?04:24
JanneMand keep the calendar? :)04:24
sect2ki also agree it's fine as a choice but not as default04:24
drodi like the images as well, personally, but I definitely recognize how much the artwork will limit Ubuntu's reach. Include it, but don't make it the default, that's all we're asking.....04:24
The_Belllucas_ I get a 404 error04:24
darkersatanicGiven seraph's comments, though, I'm not sure about the legality of even shipping it at all to (e.g) strongly Islamic countries.04:24
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Rocha'available but not the default' for me, too04:24
jdubdefault with people: i lean towards no04:24
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seraphdarkersatanic, what is the label going to be"04:24
danielssabdfl: the entire split is back, yes04:25
sabdflfor this part of the session, please don't think of "people" as they are represented in the current artwork04:25
seraph"Soft porn Ubuntu Artwork" ?04:25
umanavailable but not default04:25
whiprushI don't think images of people fit well at all with a default theme, regardless of how they're dressed or whatever, it's just tacky.04:25
lucas_old default theme : http://blop.info/screenshot.png (.png, not .jpg)04:25
JanneMdarkersatanic: but as seraph points out - animals (including cartoon penguins, I would assume) are a no-no04:25
jimimy view is the same : avaiable in gnome theme manager but no people in default 04:25
RochaCan we make a vote? With just "yes/no" answers ?04:25
theantixsabdfl: I would be okay with the current gdm image by default if they were all clothed04:25
pittisabdfl: not in Islamic religion04:25
BenNovackI'm personally tempted to say that depicting people is fine - we can cover for ME countries by simply not making them a default04:25
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jg__daniels: ping04:25
sabdflRocha: no04:25
danielssabdfl: i don't think we can go with people for defaults -- witness the controversy about what they'd have to be wearing, whether depiction of certain genders/ethnicities/builds/whatever is okay, et al04:25
opi^worksabdfl: I think we could, just give'em Tshirts, so people would not get ,,p0rn'' idea04:25
seraphJanneM, people would be alright, but to be safe ...04:25
seraphremember, in some countries a bourka is considered decent04:25
pittiPersonally I would prefer abstract artwork, regardless of the clothing of people04:25
seb128_me too04:26
z4k4ri4me too04:26
yfirseraph, there is no way you are going to please everyone in that sense04:26
darkersatanicJanneM: There are plenty of non-animal things one could use in artwork.04:26
seraphI suggest going with conservative dress04:26
yfirnot even worth trying04:26
seraphyfir, then get conservative dressing on the people04:26
opi^workbut this photo makes nice comp. to Ubuntu logo04:26
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Ngit would seem a good idea to have humans in ubuntu :)04:26
umanI'd prefer to keep it human, make it optional though04:26
maswanseraph: there is no global consensus on conservative dress04:26
crabboxif we dump the people pictures from default installation then gdm artwork should be something else too04:26
rjekSurely you can't have a universally inoffensive default?04:26
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JanneMdarkersatanic: my point is, I doubt we even have an icon theme available that doesn depict animals, for instance04:26
seraphI *really* liked the professionalness of the artwork though04:26
seraphthat has to be commended04:26
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SepheeBearmethinks this is *ONLY* an issue because Ubuntu's the best distro out there04:26
z4k4ri4But your conservative dressing might different with other culture conservative dressing04:26
darkersatanicJanneM: Ah, I see your point. :)04:26
lucas_what about a picture with people dressed in a more traditionnal way ? The current picture means : let's unite people from all over the world, but dress them as Westerners.04:26
rjekPersonally, I find the brown colour scheme offensive. :)04:26
yfiryes, photograpy was excellent04:26
Keybukhow does "conservative dress" play with (e.g.) the Muslim market, for whom conversative dress for a woman is entirely covered? *shrug*04:26
flubiehow conservative is conservative enough?04:26
The_BellIt'll always be a problem if people appears in the artwork04:27
regex_racoonrjek: What about volvoman's ubuntu logos04:27
sect2krjek: why not?04:27
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umanit was well done indeed, great artwork, just not appropriate as deault04:27
Keybukregex_racoon: URL?04:27
HenrikWith more clothes and a wider distribution of age and good-lookingness, it should be ok to have some humans as default, but perhaps not everywhere and perhaps not such large and bright images04:27
rjekregex_racoon: I've only just joined.04:27
kfischer_The problem with abstract themes is that thea are - wonder - abstract. It clearly states that the computer is a piece of mysterious technology and therefore it cnnot be fun using it. Which is, in my opinion, the wrong way to go...04:27
seraphuman, agreed04:27
maswanseraph: I mean, the current gdm splash is ok as conservative enough clothing around here. Apparently it is not in parts of the world.04:27
z4k4ri4it is safer to use some abstract or symbolic picture04:27
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seraphmaswan, slightly more clothing would be best04:27
BenNovackThe reason I'm not forwarding the abstract argument is that (If I read things right) the developers want to keep things *human*. Says so in the wiki. But again, just don't make it the default!04:27
seraphmaswan, less skin, perhaps tshirts or something04:27
maswanBut I would like to see humans.04:27
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dynif we could have a t-shirt on the guy at least, it'd be fine ;)04:27
maswanseraph: might be fine in your specific location.04:28
rjekI think less people would be offended if the models were attractive. :)04:28
regex_racoonrjek: http://www.volvoguy.net/ubuntu/04:28
pittiHuman is not necessarily "depict real people"04:28
umanI feel very happy looking at nice people looking up at me, but I don't want to force my pervese nature onto others04:28
TelepOffensive or not, having pictures of people is imho too distracting, and carries potentially too many unintentional messages to use them as default artwork04:28
maswanseraph: thing is, it differs.04:28
regex_racoonrjek: I guess it's volvoguy04:28
Telepespecially _photographs_ are problematic imho04:28
seraphmaswan, agreed. but to make it available is an option with ore clothes04:28
whiprushnext question please. ;) we could be stuck here all day.04:28
yfirshould we move on perhaps? we are repeating ourselves on this issue now04:28
BenNovackI'm very much of the opinion that we just make the default abstract, and then don't worry about whta's *available*.04:28
nosilver4ui'm in the US, and normally those images are nothing to blink at, but I work at a Bible College, and I installed unbuntu the day the artwork is changed04:28
pittiTelep: +104:28
JanneMTelep: I think that the sticking point04:28
SepheeBearpeople dig the whole "humanity" thing just as long as no real humans are involved04:28
rjekregex_racoon: Some of them are better - if a little overly plain.04:28
TelepI'm of the opinion that images of holding hands and the sort would convey the idea of Ubuntu much better than full images of people, which leave too much room for misinterpretation, esp. if they're half naked.04:28
nosilver4ui almost crapped my pants, cause my boss was sitting 5 feet away04:28
bdri agree - faces/bodies on a computer are distracting generally04:28
maswanseraph: the _current_ one should be availbable for those that want them04:28
nosilver4ufortunately, he's understanding, and just laughed at my frustration04:29
regex_racoonrjek: But universally unoffensive?04:29
kfischer_But what about the novice user? Will he or she ever learn (and how so?) that there are far more attractive, joyful themes out there thhan just some abstract colrs/shapes?04:29
JanneMhow about cartoon? silhouettes of people? animals?04:29
opi^worknosilver4u: my boss, otoh, said the artwork is fine :>04:29
jimito keep the "human" thing, people can be drwn04:29
Keybukkfischer_: I think so, even the most novice user tends to find how to change that04:29
jiminot pictured04:29
ogra_opi^work: mine too :)04:29
umanI find this whole debate ridiculous, but I respect the opinions of others, so keep it simple and non offending04:30
nosilver4uopiwork: did you just ignore the part about me working at a Bible School04:30
yfiri don't know, hentai is pretty offensive in some quarters too :)04:30
opi^workJanneM: I bet some pople would say some animals are a ,,no-go'' to04:30
crabboxdrawing actually sounds good04:30
seraphmaswan, the gdm bg is ok to ship imo, but the splash and calendars are a definite no no04:30
rjekregex_racoon: I'm not sure it's possible to be universally inoffensive.  Certainly it's possible to try and get close.  Some cultures have strong issues with certain colours, for example.04:30
jimiheh yfir =)04:30
mirak_-most windows/ex-windows users like shiny things, so im sure that one of the first things they go to do is make their desktop look pretty04:30
cbaoth_The splash screen is kind of hard to change.04:30
nosilver4uworking at a Bible School=naked people on your desktop is bad04:30
regex_racoonrjek: Good call04:30
bdrthey could just add gtweakui or some similar tool to the computer desktop preferences menu to make it more obvious there are alternatives04:30
BenNovackI work tech support at my university, and I can guarantee you that your average user will stop at nothing to put their prom pic/dog/kids on the desktop04:30
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sabdfljimi: i think even drawn representations of the human form are problematic in some cultures04:30
sect2krjek: name a few?04:30
Rochamirak_-, that's a critical thing. Make the desktop look pretty.04:30
rjekregex_racoon: Best bet is to go with something that's extremely tricky to avoid in real life, like blue or green. :)04:31
opi^worknosilver4u: god made you naked, so? ;) (sorry, this is not a topic here, but I couldn't resist)04:31
RochaAlmost everyone I know uses windows because it's pretty.04:31
BenNovackThis is starting to get tangential, but what about adding a "How to get things done" popup at first login a la most of the major distributions?04:31
umanI must say that this "wallpaper" has been one of the most original ones I've seen for a long time04:31
bdrWindows? Pretty?04:31
umanit's sad that it offends so many04:31
nosilver4uopiwork: i'm not biting04:31
BenNovackRocha: I find that really amusing because prettiness is one of the reasons I'm such a linux fan!04:31
jimisabdfl, yes, i personnaly think default shoud contain no people =) 04:31
opi^worknosilver4u: ok :)04:31
shadywhat lines do I need to comment on XF86 (for nvidia)04:31
yfirnext question already...04:31
BenNovackIf I can ask, since I missed the start, who here is canonical?04:32
z4k4ri4sabdfl, It's better to use the old one04:32
sabdfli'd like to try to distinguish between "sensible default" and "acceptable to everybody"04:32
danielssabdfl: (yeah, Islam prevents depiction of Allah's creatures, for two primary reasons, but yeah, they can be offensive in some cultures)04:32
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JanneMclothed people in general?04:32
sabdflfor example04:32
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lucas_z4k4ri4: can you define "the old one" ?04:32
empopI very much like the direction of the images.  I think that even if they are removed as default, the monthly calendar should continue in that direction04:32
JanneMsabdfl: "acceptable to eveybody" == "turned off monitor"04:32
synd|workNot true04:32
z4k4ri4lucas_: the one with just the logo04:32
opi^workyou can't stasify everyone04:32
sabdflif the login screen is not good in a corporate setting, and totally offensive in strict muslim countries04:32
pittiempop: it will anyway04:32
umansensible = no nudity (sigh) generic symbols, stupid everyone the same04:32
amin2help. I lost my gnome panel. I did "sudo aptitue install ~tubuntu desktop". I works but I don't like it, cuz I lost my customize setting04:32
sabdflthen i'm curious if we could even put it on the cd04:32
whiprushsensible default should be sensibly boring04:32
sabdflor in the archive04:33
BenNovackYou can't satisfy everyone, but you can at least refrain from *insulting* everyone04:33
BenNovackAgree with whiprush04:33
sabdflso let's postulate that the default images were all non-human04:33
rjekI installed Ubuntu on a linux newbie friend's machine last night.  He did mention that some people might take offense about the lack of representation of people other than men, women, white and black.  (Lack of asians, for example.)  04:33
Telepsabdfl: putting it on the website somewhere would probably be the safest bet, imho04:33
JanneMI think the main sticking point realy was that it would be default, ie. that people wouldn't have a concious choice to use the images04:33
crabboxsabdfl: I agree on that04:33
BenNovackJanneM: Agreed.04:33
sabdfland let me ask people to give their view on whether images with the human form could even be on the cd, or if that would risk censorship in mulsim (or other) countries04:33
opi^worksabdfl: yet, human artwork should stay in Ubuntu04:33
KamionI feel that if people have to actively go and turn an image on, then the onus shifts to them to ensure that it's not offensive to those around them. In the case of the default, the onus is on us.04:33
maswanTelep: somewhere on the website = in the archive04:34
jdubsabdfl: i'm a little concerned about the calendar images being installed by default. they're a cool feature for people to find out about and play with, but installed (even if not on) by default is a bit hairy in some environments. all the kids will switch to the nudie photos, etc... ;)04:34
JanneMI don't see a problem with including it on the CD04:34
yfirsabdfl: i think trying to keep absolutely anything potentially offensive to anyone from the archive is a fruitless battle. just worry about sensible, non-offensive defaults04:34
seb128_I don't get the problem with having it in the archive, people will only have them on screen if they decide to select them ...04:34
limi|londonyou could also change the approach a bit, and have images (like the calendar idea) from different parts of the world - African savannah, Brazilian rainforest, Norwegian fjords, Icelandic glaciers etc - be the "world distro" more than the "people distro" - that would be less confrontational and still have the global aspect of Ubuntu04:34
sabdflKamion: will the censors in saudi arabia agree with you?04:34
Telepmaswan: ok04:34
umanI guess you stick on some toilet type human figures04:34
Kamionsabdfl: no idea :-)04:34
Keybuksabdfl: I actually asked my next-door neighbours about that ... they didn't think they'd have a problem with things just being installed, as long as they weren't forced to look at them04:34
theantixsabdfl: I don't think the images are so offensive that they can't be included, just not by default -- if someone actively turn them on it is up to them to make sure they arne't offending anyone04:34
danielssabdfl: i think having them is fine, just as it's fine for us to also ship fortunes-off04:34
maswanjdub: or for that matter for travelling into some ME conutries, you don't want to have that on your laptop in case you are caught in custums.04:34
dynhah, one again. my noob friend just isntalled ubuntu for the first time 10 minutes ago. i asked them about the login screen's first impression and the answer was "a bit gay"04:34
jimiare penguins offensive in some part of the world?04:34
dynso that's a definite problem04:34
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yfirgay is a problem?04:35
danielssabdfl: if people need to actively make a choice to see it, then they won't take offence04:35
drodto me, this seems to be a rehash of everything said in the mailing list over the last several days....with the drawback of not being able to participate much since I'm at work right now.04:35
sabdfljimi: you should smell penguin poop04:35
dynyfir: in the 'homosexual' meaning of gay04:35
crabboxjimi: yes, here in Filand ;-)04:35
umanI think you could boil it down to this : What would you be comfortable with YOUR children looking at04:35
sect2kdaniels: agreed04:35
yfiryeah, i know. what's the problem though?04:35
opi^workdyn: what's gay in famales in male? :O04:35
yfirlet's not get offensive (hahaha)04:35
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NapoHi all04:35
JanneMuman: not a good test as the answer will change by culture and by individual04:35
kfischer_uman, I found nothing offensive in ubuntu so far..04:35
dynopi^work: i _cannot_ explain, but i got the same feeling, and he's the 4th ppl saying that from my friendship (all straight with gf :-)04:36
NapoWhere i can find a repository for Mplayer and j2sdk for ubuntu?04:36
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umanneither do I, but normally we applu stricter standards to what children can "handle"04:36
dynNapo: website, docs, universal repository04:36
dynNapo: but we're in a meeting here right now04:36
ogra_Napo: http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/RestrictedFormats04:36
yfirnapo, search wiki for 'restricted formats'04:36
sabdflso is there anyone here who feels strongly that the RC images should not be on the CD at all?04:36
umanand that might just coincide with a more generic/general acceptance04:36
sabdflwhat about for schools, universities?04:37
umanthey should be one the CDs04:37
JanneMdon't see a problem04:37
BenNovackSchools and universities will disable wallpaper switching anyway04:37
empopI feel strongly they sould remain ON the cd04:37
HenrikJust had a look at the Arabic news service Al-Jazeera out of curiocity, and it's filled with images of people (clothed obviously). If they are not worried about that, then I think we are going too far by worrying about images of people in general. I think those rules are only enforced by the most extreme regimes like the Taliban.04:37
whiprushI'm a .edu admin, I'd strip out the images anyway.04:37
crabboxkeep those on the cd04:37
kfischer_on the CD, please04:37
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seb128no problem to have them on the CD04:37
z4k4ri4sabdfl: but they should be properly labeled04:37
umanthey're like pieces of art, you wouldn't want to destroy david04:37
yfiri run an academic network. would be fine04:37
drodon th cd04:37
jimii think the problem is about default install, choice is good04:37
bdrat my uni somebody got in trouble for putting an empty folder called "Porn" on a public machine04:37
jdubsabdfl: they could be in ShipSeed instead of DesktopSeed (so they're not installed on disk unless you actively choose to)04:37
ogra_Henrik: is here any muslim ? why don't we hear it from them ?04:38
kfischer_z4k4ri4, what does "properly labeled" mean?04:38
BenNovackIf they're not in DesktopSeed, most users will never see them04:38
Kinnisonsabdfl: On the CD, not installed by default, not copied by archive-copier by default, explicitly marked as something like 'ubuntu-artwork-human' sounds like a good plan to me.04:38
umanKinnison: agree04:38
sabdflKinnison: then why put them on the cd at all?04:38
RochaI'll ask the opinion of some of my collegues tomorrow and I'll tell you what did they think.04:38
amin2help.. I lost my gnome panel04:38
TelepKinnison: agree04:38
BenNovackI think as long as it's not the right-after-install-default, it doesn't matter too much.04:38
empopBenNovack: agreed04:38
z4k4ri4kfischer_: Give it a name like human photo or something04:38
Rochaamin2, don't talk about that now.04:38
Kinnisonsabdfl: Because synaptic can then ask for the CD if the user opts to install it04:38
Rochaamin2, we're in a meeting04:38
jimisabdfl, why *not* on the CD ? :)04:38
Telepor "ubuntu-half-naked-people" ;)04:38
umanwhere does human nature go if you can't depict bits of anatomy04:39
crabboxnatural people04:39
BenNovackJanneM: What are you 'nah'-ing?04:39
SepheeBearon the CD with install option to include pictures of real people04:39
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umanyou're not going to show people just in veils04:39
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sabdfli didn't really get a clear view there, except that everyone seems to think they can stay on the cd04:39
lkxhope to see a decision named 'default smart' soon. gbye :)04:39
JanneMBenNovack: "ubuntu-half-naked-people"04:39
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umanif you go to a beach you'll see people wearing less04:39
lucas_then, could you ship the theme used during beta test too (the globe one) ? ;-) 04:39
whiprushKeep them on the CD04:40
JanneMuman: but you choose to go to the beach. 04:40
yfirto some sects of menonite, computers themselves are offensive. give up trying to please all and work on developing a sensible default04:40
Kinnisonsabdfl: It seems a pity to force people to download it; but I guess having it in the archive but not on the CD might be safer for getting the CDs imported into strict countries.04:40
johnlevinuman: depends on the beach04:40
JanneMpeople in business attire good?04:40
dynsabdfl: we're mostly from europe or the usa i believe. i have zero idea how eg. asian ppl would react on that topic - they should be asked04:40
jdubsabdfl: subtle midpoint that was missed on the wiki: 'on by default' vs. 'installed by default' vs. 'on the cd'04:40
lucas_uman: ever been to the beach near the caspian see, in iran ? :)04:40
|trey|Ugh, more discussion about the graphics?04:40
sabdflKinnison: calendar requires download anyhow for ongoing update each month04:40
z4k4ri4dyn: I'm an indonesian04:40
Telepuman: you'd still be distracted if people were dressed to work in swimsuits and bikinis04:40
BenNovackI know Ubuntu is really big on not having the usual distro-style overload on 'choice' - only gnome, only openoffice, etc - but I dont' think it's a problem to have lots of options for wallpaper after default.04:40
umanI doubt that there is a culture that will not, in any form, show the upper torso of a man04:40
bob2_|trey|: it's a meeting.04:41
dynz4k4ri4: wow, so make your voice heard!04:41
z4k4ri4I'm trying04:41
|trey|bob2_: ahh... I thought that was #ubuntu-meeting..04:41
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sabdflcan we talk for a bit about derivatives?04:41
z4k4ri4What bother me the most is the gnome splash screen04:41
Kinnisonsabdfl: true enough. Okay, I revise my suggestion to: Not on CD; in archive; not depended upon (which could result in strange accidental installation); package name 'ubuntu-artwork-human' and with a description which clearly states that it contains images which some cultures may find distasteful04:42
|trey|IMO, if the graphics offend anyone, they should be re-done or the old defaults should be kept...04:42
BenNovackz4k4ri4: Agreed04:42
z4k4ri4sabdfl: what you mean about derivatives?04:42
lucas_uman: there are. in iran you can't walk around half-naked, for example04:42
sabdflon the wiki i've describe the issue04:42
KamionKinnison: depended-upon would have germinate force it into desktop anyway, so you just mean 'in germinated supported seed'04:42
dynz4k4ri4: you feel that the most offensive? would you feel offended to make it a choose-able alternative, not the default one? would you prefer abstract graphics as the default?04:42
sabdflfor warty, this is the only official release04:42
umanlucas_: but how far will you go ?04:42
SepheeBeari think the artwork gives the message to keep an open mind in general04:42
sabdflbut we expect that hoary will have many derivatives04:42
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xcasexSepheeBear, agreed04:42
sabdfleach tailored for a specific industry or country04:42
umanif there is one tribe in africe that doesn't like showing your eye, will you forbid all depiction of eyes ?04:43
Telepsabdfl: I believe all over the world you will find a _significant_ amount of people who will be put off by half-naked people.04:43
sabdflthey may be coordinated by teams completely independent of what we do04:43
dynwhorey - as we heard today - lol04:43
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sabdflbut we'll consider them official ubuntu derivatives04:43
dynrefering the artwork04:43
umanthere has to be some measure of reason04:43
KamionI'd expect it to be each derivative's choice ...? we're giving advice already by virtue of producing Ubuntu04:43
z4k4ri4dyn: But currently there is no user friendly way to change it04:43
whiprushderivates I think should depend on the derivative itself. ie. is it just "Joe's Linux, based on Ubuntu" or something else.04:43
TheMusoI believe that to allow for a useful Ubuntu installation for blind/vision impaired people, a separate derivitive is necessary.04:43
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JanneMand a measure of reaason is, include it or make available, but make it optional04:43
C2H5OHhello all04:43
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umanI'm fine with optional04:43
umanbut it should be on the Cd04:43
opi^workand in archive04:44
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z4k4ri4dyn: I prefer abstract picture04:44
whiprushthen I think it depends on the usage of Ubuntu and other canonical stuff, similar to what RH does with their derivatives. ie. remove copyrighted artwork, etc. etc.04:44
BenNovackI'd say the splash absolutely has to go04:44
yfirsabdfl: not sure what you are asking us, but the idea of 'derivatives' sounds great04:44
kfischer_I think having different copies for different regions might be the best solution - granted, you always find somebody who is offended. But it's definitely the best choice to offer a tailored version for different region with different snsitivities.04:44
sabdflshould we require that the ubuntu derivative for the netherlands follow a code acceptable in iran?04:44
JanneMand vice versa, of course04:44
sabdflwow. consensus04:45
SepheeBeari just hope this doesnt cause the Ubuntu community to split into two camps "shirts and skins"04:45
jdubsabdfl: i think it would be unfortunate to have derivatives made solely due to inadequacies in ubuntu itself (lame i18n, unfortunate choice of artwork, etc). that just dilutes ubuntu, without having a really good reason for the derivative.04:45
JanneMjdub: true04:45
z4k4ri4But make it clear that they could insult people in iran04:45
crabboxsimple question and simple answer04:45
JanneMthere are some things that are difficult to paper over, though04:45
opi^workbut, OTOH, Muslim rules ofending my g 04:45
bdrapt-get install ubuntu-desktop-muslim04:45
Napodyn, ogra_, yfir: thanks for the help ;)04:45
sabdfljdub: greatest common factor inevitably implies a certain amount of lowest common denominator, and derivatives are our way of breaking free of that04:45
whiprushplus if you restrict what an "official" derivative can do, people will just make it unofficial and drive one04:45
kfischer_someting like that is already done with games, blood and no-blood and such things..04:46
JanneMyou include the Taiwanese flag and you are banned from China. You don't include it, and you piss off a lot of Taiwanese04:46
umangreatest common denominator is to respect the values of your fellow man04:46
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jdubsabdfl: sure, but derivatives should be picking bigger fights.04:46
umanif other people don't want it on the CD, don't out it on there04:46
jimiexport nudity_percent="50"04:46
C2H5OHis there any successful story about upgrading from sid to ubuntu ?04:46
sabdfla fight is a fight, and this is something we need to figure out04:46
sabdfltaiwan and china is a good example04:46
yfirit gets difficult too: do you include a "basque" derivative? a "quebecoise" derivative? political decisions04:46
sabdflkashmir . india, pakistan is another04:47
z4k4ri4sabdfl: You should choose your fight well04:47
Jon_of_the_WiredI think this has gone wildly off-topic04:47
umanit boils down to if you think that your artistic value is more important than other people's cultural values04:47
yfirjon, it hasn't. check the wicki-topic page04:47
lucas_jimi: http://dindinx.net/hotbabe/index.php might interest you =)04:47
jdubsabdfl: for instance, if a derivative (with the same goals as the general ubuntu) is made for a region just because we don't include five well integrated pacakges, that's lame.04:47
umando you want a "world" distribution or don't you04:47
JanneMjdub: real example?04:48
sabdfljdub: even if those packages are only applicable in that country? disagree04:48
yfirwhy don't you follow the "style guide" of the UN?04:48
jimihere why other distro dont put people on their themes :s04:48
jdubJanneM: including japanese input support and fonts04:48
bdryou have to decide somewhere. available but not default seems fine for a generally liberal westernish distro. Anything more extreme could be covered by derivatives or alternative CD isos.04:48
JanneMjdub: yep.04:48
kfischer_As an artist myself I can only say: go for the artistic value. But then this is not about art, isn't it?04:48
sabdflok, i got what i was looking for, which was a clear answer that derivatives are a separate kettle of fish04:48
jimilucas thanks ^_04:48
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dynkfischer_: should be about both04:48
sabdfland we can have derivatives that address different cultural norms04:48
sabdfllet's move on04:48
jdubJanneM: versus a tightly honed, minimal firewall derivative04:48
TelepI think the developers should see that the value of Ubuntu is not in having fancy artwork, but in the fact that it's a simple, easy linux distro.04:48
lucas_sabdfl: what's the point in having "official" derivates ?04:49
z4k4ri4sabdfl: Can third party make derivatives easily?04:49
umanit has to be global04:49
sabdfllucas_: it's a big world04:49
sabdfllet's talk about the gnomesplash screen in RC, it's the most controversial04:49
umaneach culture still can have their optional items04:49
daniels(two cents: needing derivatives to address cultural sensitivities is probably indicative of a shortcoming in the first place, as jdub alluded to)04:49
sabdflbecause it is the hardest to change04:49
dynit's the worst of all04:49
Keybuklucas_: a group of people might want to produce a derivative of Ubuntu with KDE instead of GNOME ... if they're willing to follow the Ubuntu code of conduct, etc. there's no reason not to bless them as an official derivative04:49
bdrlucas: couldn't you just scipt the building of different isos? depending on region/morals etc04:49
Telepsabdfl: it should definately be replaced.04:50
sabdfli'm convinced from the mailing list and forum discussion that we can't ship it as the default04:50
crabboxgnome splash is same as other artwork. change the people non defautl and same goes for the gdm04:50
ogra_sad but yes04:50
opi^worksabdfl: maybe Ubuntu/Gnome logo instead?04:50
BenNovackThe splash is the worst of them all04:50
sabdflcrabbox: one at a time please04:50
umanit all boils down to what goals you have, do you want to make a global distribution or not04:50
flubiecrabbox: agreed04:50
z4k4ri4sabdfl: What do you use instead?04:50
xcasexuman it's not black and white.04:50
umando you want to split it up into regional a distributions or not04:50
nosilver4uthat was quite difficult to change, and most non tech-savvy people would have been stuck with a splash they didn't appreciate04:50
Telepsomeone suggested a picture of the Earth bathing in sunlight - sounds nice to me :)04:50
yfirtwo suggestions: 1) make it non-default, 2) develop a gui way to easily change the splash screen04:50
z4k4ri4sabdfl: The old one?04:50
Jon_of_the_Wireddown that road lies infinite complexity04:50
umanxcasex: to an extent it is04:51
nosilver4ui would be all for an easier way to change the splash04:51
jmchughyfir: that would be ideal04:51
C2H5OHis there any successful story about upgrading from sid to ubuntu ?04:51
nosilver4uso i'm with yfir04:51
opi^workmaybe we should have groups working on something similar to translations teams? ubuntu-pl-artwork.deb, ubuntu-jp-artwork.deb04:51
sabdflwe will produce a new gnomesplash to be the default04:51
jdubsabdfl: if we switch the splash back to the ubuntu logo, i don't think it's worth bothering shipping alternative splashes, until perhaps hoary (when it might be part of the gnome metatheme).04:51
umanI liked the artwork very much, but I'll defent the right of someone from a different cultural background not having it as a default04:51
bdryfir:seconded and 2) is very easy04:51
whiprushadding a tool to change the splash isn't a solution, I shouldn't have to change it.04:51
pittiC2H5OH: I doubt that this works04:51
lucas_Keybuk: but it means you will have to do support work for them. Anyway it is OT, so dont reply =)04:51
Keybuksabdfl: what about /usr/share/pixmaps/splash/ubuntu-logo-508x340.png ?04:51
xcasexuman, so if we're going down the cultural sensitivity path, we need to factor in all the other aspects.04:52
sabdflKeybuk: perhaps, with tweaks04:52
jimii would like to see the earth, too =)04:52
sabdfli'm not looking for creative suggestions as to what we might ship04:52
z4k4ri4sabdfl: Can we have a look before you put it in our desktop?04:52
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kfischer_Sorry, sabdfl, I think the right step would be to include it in general in the original distribution and create the derivates you mentioned04:52
yfirship it as non default then. eeryone is happy that way04:52
bdrwhiprush: no, but many will want to, whatever the GNOME ideal of non-configurability says04:52
tof__hi all04:52
umanI wished that the naked human form wouldn't offend so many people04:52
nosilver4uwhiprush: that's just a suggestion to make it a better distro, the first step was to change the bootsplash04:52
sabdflz4k4ri4: we can send a notice of the package updates to the list, but there will not be time to change it again before release04:52
umanit's what we all are04:52
xcasexthey arent *that* naked04:52
yfiruman: so do i but it does unfortunately04:53
BenNovackThey're very naked04:53
Telepnaked enough04:53
opi^workuman: me too, but what we going to do? :)04:53
xcasexand if that amount of nudity offends people04:53
crabboxdrawn aboriginal pictures from different countries04:53
tof__anyone know how i can configure xprint to print from firefox ?04:53
xcasexthey need to get out more.04:53
BenNovackThere are a *lot* of people who are offended by that level of nudity - in the wallpaper, it really looks to a lot of poeple like there's about to be a threesome.04:53
sabdfltof__: we're in an artwork discussion, should be done inn about 30 minutes04:53
bdrif someone tried to go to work in an office dressed like that, I doubt they'd have a job very long04:53
z4k4ri4sabdfl: I mean it is better to have community to look at it to avoid further controversy04:53
umanyou could do them like the lil symobls on the toilets04:53
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umanjust symbolized humans04:53
umanI'll keep the real ones as wallpaper, though04:54
=== sladen wonders... is it just me, or is this one issue {getting,going to get} more press for Ubuntu than anything else/
xcasexsladen it is04:54
Keybuksladen: hasn't got us any yet, has it?04:54
pittisladen: first impression04:54
tof__sabdfl, ok thx and sorry ;)04:54
ogra_slan: sadly yes04:54
umanall you have to decide is if you want to go for the lowest common denominator, or not04:54
sabdfltof__: no worries04:54
thisfredsymbolized humans aren't acceptable to some muslims either04:54
bdras long as they spell ubuntu right04:54
C2H5OHpitti: I was curious about it, I'm gogin to test the liveCD before I install04:54
nosilver4uthisfred: you serious?04:54
Telepuman: whatever you think about how nudity _should_ be treated, you can't just ignore 04:54
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pittiC2H5OH: upgrade from woody or reinstall from scratch04:55
yfirsladen: makes sense though - if Ubuntu bills itself as the 'accessible, humanized' linux, then this is a perfectly expected issue to face 04:55
sabdflok, so on the gnomesplash, should we include this image as an option on the cd?04:55
JanneMuman: on this, lowest common denominator is probably reasonable04:55
opi^workhope the Planet wouldn't offend anyone, some people thinks that earth is flat04:55
C2H5OHpitti:  I have sid now, fortunately my /home is in a different partition04:55
bdr"some" muslims? What fraction are we talking about?04:55
thisfredI think the quran forbids it, but there are differneces in interpretation04:55
mirak_-this argument/discussion has gone on for way to long to not just say "we will leave it out, but it is available here"04:55
ogra_sabdfl: yes 04:55
BenNovackyes, but it CANNOT be the default04:55
Telepuman: ... the fact that imagery like that has lot's of sexual meaning even in liberal, western societies04:55
theantixsabdfl: I'm not clear as to how that would work?  as a install option?04:55
nosilver4umirak: agreed04:55
sabdflkfischer_: why no? you're the only voice against including it as an option04:55
jdubi don't think it's worth bothering shipping secondary splash images, until perhaps hoary (when it might be part of the gnome metatheme).04:55
umanoption, yes04:55
z4k4ri4thisfred: It is not forbid in quran but in sunnah or the interpretation of sunnah04:56
empopcould it be linked to the monthly calendar?04:56
sabdfltheantix: you would need to install it yourself, using the same process you can currently use to remove it04:56
thisfredty z4k4ri404:56
thisfredI'm not an expert04:56
theantixsabdfl: okay, that would be fine04:56
=== z4k4ri4 is a muslim
Keybuksabdfl: I tend to agree with jdub here ... there's little reason to ship more than one splash screen as they're a bugger to change04:56
sect2kwhy would the splashscreen/loginscreen issue be any different than wallpaper issuse04:56
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sabdflsect2k: more difficult to change04:56
nosilver4uyeah, unless you do the whole gui splashscreen changer04:56
bdrsorry to repeat myself, but use gteakui and it's much easier04:56
nosilver4u(besides gconf)04:57
mirak_-isnt that already available in gnome?04:57
Keybuk(though, likewise, I guess there's little reason not to ship more than one *shrug*)04:57
jdubthere's no cost in having it on disk04:57
sabdflKeybuk: it could also be automatically installed when you install the calendar desktop04:57
jdubbut it's not as if it's a feature04:57
z4k4ri4May be complete background theme that change gdm, splash screen and wallpaper04:57
yfirpoint is, those tools aren't easily findable by a beginning linux user04:57
sect2ksabdfl1: but the resolution should be the same, default no, as choice ok, no?04:57
nosilver4uno, but it's pointless to work on alternatives if few people will use them04:57
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jdubsabdfl: that's doable, but additional complexity, and requires the user to reconfigure the splash manually to choose the 'calendar' version04:58
sabdflsect2k: possibly, i'm just checking on the issue, people may feel differently about different images04:58
umanin the end, you should be able to chose your own "theme" from some webpage, but the default shoule be as least offencive as possivle04:58
sabdfljdub: gconftool call on calendar artwork postinst, surely?04:58
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sect2ksabdf1: i agree, but in my opinion, wallpaper is less contraversial than login/splash04:58
BenNovackOkay, I'm confident I'll be content with the conclusion, based on what I'm hearing... gotta do some homework.04:58
Keybuksabdfl: would change it for everyone, not just those that select the calendar theme04:58
ogra_sabdfl: i'm very sad it has to go, but apparantly it has04:58
jdubsabdfl: that means changing the default for all users when installing that package. not good.04:58
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guptanHi Room04:59
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sabdflKeybuk: common case is one user per machine04:59
z4k4ri4sabdfl: When the meeting will be finish04:59
sabdflz4k4ri4: about another 25 minutes i think04:59
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TelepI doubt the meeting will be ever in Finnish ;)04:59
sabdflTelep: unlikely to be as much of a debate, certainly :-)05:00
Telep(aaargh, I'm so funny today)05:00
jdubsabdfl: that may be the common case, but it's very un-golden-rule to change everyone's default when installing a package05:00
JanneMwell, some of us could manage :)05:00
bdrsabdfl: Not necessarily. I would imagine many have one main plus several occaisional users (wife/kids/gf)05:00
z4k4ri4sabdfl: Have you decide yet?05:00
Telepyes, not everyone lives in a basement :)05:00
sabdflyou mean your wife might like it but gf disapproves?05:01
Telepbelieve it or not :)05:01
JanneMbdr: but in that case, it is also reasonable for them to do an estimation on whether it sould be acceptabel05:01
Telepsabdfl: :D05:01
sabdflz4k4ri4: no, not yet05:01
ogra_sabdfl: lol05:01
JanneMthey are not unknown people05:01
sabdflok, let's move on05:01
sabdflthe calendar desktop wallpapers05:01
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z4k4ri4Will you decide when the meeting over? or we should wait more?05:01
JanneMoption, but _please_ keep the calendar idea05:01
jdubsetting a gconf default on unrelated pacakge install is something we should avoid in general05:01
whiprushagree with JanneM 05:01
sabdflfirst let me apologise for the fact that these suddenly became default for people who had looked at the backgrounds during preview05:01
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crabboxkeep the calender idea05:01
dynsabdfl: can the calendar pics somewhere checked online? i haven't seen them (and am currently on gentoo)05:02
bdrI get in trouble for moving icons on my gf's desktop, for god's sake.05:02
z4k4ri4What about not one calendar but multiple calendar05:02
JanneMz4k4ri4: probably a good deal of work05:02
opi^workI don't know what calendar is (running Ubuntu/custom;-) so I remain quiet :)05:02
bdragreed, it's a nice idea05:02
theantixcurrent situation (installed but not selected by default) is fine with me -- if it is too risque for your org you won't choose it05:02
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TelepI think the calendar idea is cool, but don't undestand why the calendar pics should depict naked people :/05:02
JanneMopi^work: cutomagically changing backgrounds every month05:02
ogra_opi^work: monthly changing background05:02
yfircallendar is great, but again not as default05:03
opi^workIt won't work with XFce4, so I can not decite :)05:03
sladenTelep: what would be your opinion on naked animals?05:03
Telepsladen: is that a serious question? :)05:03
sabdflok, we have been working on splitting out the calendar as a separate artwork package05:03
yfirshaved animals are a no no!05:03
sabdflif this is removed, then the calendar desktops are not available at all05:03
kfischer_I vote for: include them05:04
ogra_sabdfl: but the possibility stays ?05:04
sabdflthe calendar will not be the default desktop05:04
crabboxinclude them05:04
yfiri vote: include05:04
sabdflbut should the calendar be installed and available by default?05:04
empopthat sounds fine (though i like it better as default)05:04
z4k4ri4sabdfl: I agree with that05:04
ogra_inc !05:04
Telepsabdfl: include them, but don't install them by default05:04
yfiravailable yes05:04
lamontship, not installed05:04
ari_Maybe any pictures of humans (or other problematic pictures) should be made available in such way that you can never get them on your screen accidentally (for example when when just browsing around your fresh system, trying to get familiar with it)05:05
Nonphasisship, not default05:05
morgsship, not installed05:05
yfirbut not "used" as background. (if that's what you mean by installed)05:05
theantixship, not installed05:05
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flubieinclude, not default05:05
opi^workwhy not installed but not used as default?05:05
sabdflyfir: it will not show up unless you select it in the list05:05
lamontyfir: on the cd, not on the hard drive  == ship, not installed05:05
sect2kit should be installed and avaliable by default, but not selected as default05:05
yfiryes, agree then. ship, not installed05:05
bdrmaybe some start up (first time login) dialog? Which theme, calendar yes/no etc?05:06
Nonphasiscd? forget the cd, ppl discard it anyway05:06
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jdubbdr: we'd like to avoid that kind of thing (installer, startup thingy) as much as possible05:06
bdrNonphasis:not if you have dialup05:06
jimi+1 for "first boot wizard"05:06
lamontNonphasis: I don't care if the .deb gets copied into /var/cache/apt/archives05:06
TelepI think even having it available in the list of wallpapers will be a problem to some - as sabdfl said.05:06
sabdfllamont: i'm not sure that it does05:06
yfirwell, good luck with this everyone. got to go.05:07
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crabboxcheers yfir05:07
kfischer_Having it available may cause problems? I seriously doubt that...05:07
Nonphasishard drive space is cheap, so of course it should be available05:07
z4k4ri4It should be available but not installed as default05:07
opi^workOk, im happy with conslusions05:07
opi^worktime to leave office05:08
bdrit's like 20 pixels across in the background list - surely not a problem?05:08
opi^workthanks for Ubuntu :)05:08
maswanlamont: the issue is that getting caught in customs with pics of people without "sufficient" cloathing can be a real issue for some countries. for local values for "sufficient". :/05:08
Telepkfischer_: well if someone objects to that kind of images, they won't like it if they accidentally click on the image in the list - and that's not esp. difficult to do.05:08
sabdflopi^work: no conclusions yet05:08
Kamionlamont: we're not doing that with Ship for warty, will do for hoary05:08
opi^worksabdfl: but I see where it's heading05:08
flubieopi^work: what conclusions?05:08
Kamionlamont: (because we needed to create an apt archive for Ship, and that was delicate ...)05:08
opi^worksabdfl: will there be any summary posted to ML?05:08
sabdflopi^work: yes, i'll follow up to previous mail05:09
opi^workflubie: I think most of us agree that controversial stuff should be keeped, yet, not installed as default :)05:09
opi^worksabdfl: thank you05:09
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z4k4ri4For once I agree with opi^work05:09
sparkesopi^work, that's good should please more than it upsets05:09
sabdflopi^work: sure05:09
sabdfllast, let's look at the login screen05:10
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sabdflsame questions05:10
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ogra_keep it keep it keep it05:10
kfischer_I second that05:10
whiprushship, not as default.05:10
SepheeBearlogin screeen is awesome05:10
empopagain, i like the concept05:10
z4k4ri4ship not installed05:10
ogra_keep it as defaul t05:10
crabboxship, no default05:10
theantixship, not as default05:10
TheMusoShip, no default.05:11
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perdixship, don't make it default05:11
Nonphasisinstall, not default05:11
sect2khave it as an option, but not as default05:11
bdrI wouldn't use it, was the first thing I changed. a bit goofy looking05:11
chadkisernot as default but shipped05:11
JanneMpeople have less problems with it, but still enough do that it may not be acceptable as default05:11
faaipinstall, not default05:11
lkxship, not default05:11
vrlnthe old non-photograph login screen was perfect05:11
sanitarioship, not default05:11
jdubinstalled, not default05:11
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flubieship, not default05:11
johnlevinnot default05:11
vrlnship, not default05:11
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seb128not the default05:11
bdragreed, ship not default is fine05:11
sanitarioinstalled, not default05:11
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sabdflok, so broad consensus against it as the default, but no on installation05:11
Jon_of_the_Wiredand please give us the old one back.  Happy Gnome is much to blue for ubuntu.05:11
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lkxyes :)05:12
thullyI liked the old one05:12
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flubieme too05:12
sabdflthat's enough consensus people, it's startling05:12
z4k4ri4They should be one package with the rest of "controversial pictures"05:12
lkxwe need more of the same votes ;)05:12
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whiprushwe're on a roll05:12
sabdflok, last item in the wiki agenda05:12
HenrikNot default this time, but bring back a new login for the next release where the people have slightly more clothes05:13
aswmy 2cents: the wrong image found on a person's hard-drive could mean they lose their job or worse.  I think "Ship not installed" is a reasonable comprimise for all artwork in the distribution that could be culturally offensive. (And what isn't offensive in some culture or other?)05:13
sabdflOTHER than artwork, is there anything else that we need to look at for cultural analysis in the RC?05:13
z4k4ri4It there bouncing cow in ubuntu? :)05:13
JanneMz4k4ri4: yep!05:13
danielsz4k4ri4: yes, it's distributed with xscreensaver05:13
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ogra_sabdfl: taiwanese flags ?05:13
danielssabdfl: just the typical nation/region/province issues, plus language05:13
empopPLEASE keep the cow! it cracks my gf up!05:13
NonphasisHenrik, I object to having realistic photos of people, clothes or no05:13
z4k4ri4daniels: which one?05:13
jdubsabdfl: we should remove all flags, and avoid things like the bouncing cow and 'flaccid penis' in the screensavers. 'common sense' approach, basically.05:13
KamionI *think* we've got most of the obvious geopolitical stuff in the installer sorted, but I still have a bug open about it just in case05:13
sabdfli don't know, are there flags?05:13
whiprushthe flag thing gnome dealt with last year iirc, so those are gone.05:13
crabboxif wanted we can go really deep like the colours but lets not do it05:14
sabdflflaccid penis? yuck. where?05:14
jdubin glsnake05:14
kfischer_Well, as of now, there ins't much in translations, now is there?05:14
jdubit's one of the models05:14
Kamiondo we have any maps which show country boundaries?05:14
whiprushheh, glsnake05:14
jdubyou can blame spiv for that :)05:14
sabdfljeff, no idea you made it into the artwork in person05:14
spivjdub: The glsnake labels should be turned off by default, if it's not alrady...05:14
thomjdub: no mention of it, i turned off the glsnake labels05:14
jdubspiv: :-)05:14
jdubthom: rock05:14
spivjdub: I didn't make, or add, that model :P05:14
Kamionif so (maps with boundaries), we'll need to be careful about regions like Kashmir05:14
jdub(we are smarter than novell)05:14
whiprushRH/Fedora has anti phallic patches for xscreensaver iirc.05:14
guptanhow can I play wma files in rhythmbox?05:15
jdub(very high ranking VP in utah found that on his screen one day and caused a bit of havoc)05:15
kfischer_whiprush, this is ridiculus. Do they really?05:15
JanneMis anybody actually offended by the cow, though? It's silly, but it doesn't depict a cow being hurt or anything05:15
ogra_sabdfl: i dig through the flags....let you know05:15
Nonphasisah, one of the screensavers has a picture of Mescaline molecule05:15
z4k4ri4guptan: later we have a meeting now05:15
TheMusoguptan: The meeting still goes on.05:15
whiprushyeah the chemistry one might be questionable.05:15
ogra_Jeanne: it's holy in some religions05:15
sabdflguptan: about another 10 minutes05:15
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whiprushthe one that shows PCP and hemp molecules and whatnot05:15
JanneMogra_: yes - but they don't forbid depictions05:15
ogra_JanneM: ask z4k, he'll know05:16
Keybukthat's kinda annoying, because the more psychotropic the chemical the more interesting the molecule, generally :-(05:16
JanneMwhiprush: the chemistry saver is really fairly inoffensive, though. You have to know what the compounds are to be upset05:16
sect2kso what's wrong with molecules, heck i even found it educational05:16
jdubJanneM: bouncing a sacred animal is a bit over the top, though.05:16
whiprushyeah I'm just pointing it out.05:16
Telepyes that indeed is another issue - having the "random" screensaver on by default is probably not a good idea05:16
sabdfli don't think displaying the chemistry will induce the addiction, nor provide the crack05:16
whiprushsince someone asked, heh.05:17
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JanneMand just showing the molecule doesn't feel very upsetting05:17
z4k4ri4I agre with that05:17
theantixI think so long as they aren't selected by default, it's not too important to hide bouncing cows, chemicals, etc05:17
jdubTelep: we have a whitelist05:17
crabboxlets stop with the screensavers or soon we got nothing left...05:17
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Jon_of_the_Wiredscreensavers in general are pretty dumb.  Just suspend the monitor.  Who wants to waste power showing a senseless image when no one's around to watch.05:17
Kamiontheantix: bouncing cow's one of the things shown by default05:17
=== guptan trying to recall chemical formulae of para-acetamol from his school days
sabdflso far i have the following to think about, other than artwork: bouncing cow, flaccid penis, hallucinogenics. anything else? what a day at the office05:17
=== z4k4ri4 doesn't have problem with bouncing cow
Nonphasiswas the gnome splash screen discussed already?05:18
bdrJon_of_the_Wired:a large fraction of computer users05:18
JanneMJon_of_the_Wired: I love sitting and staring at a dumb screensaver as a way to focus when I try to think05:18
thomsabdfl: you can clear your mind of flaccid penises, we've fixed that ;-P05:18
jdubNonphasis: yes05:18
Nonphasisjdub, ok05:18
rshortlandThere is a simple answer05:18
SepheeBeararent the bouncing cows in other distros?05:18
Jon_of_the_WiredI stand corrected... oy05:18
whiprushthe bouncing cow rocks, but if it offends people then just ditch it. There's a million other savers in the package05:18
amin2tucows is a cow too05:18
z4k4ri4sabdfl: Will you have conclusion at the end of the meeting?05:18
JanneMagain, just don't make them active by default05:18
ogra_amin2: two of them ;)05:19
rshortlandjust let everyone use windows05:19
crabboxJanneM: correct05:19
sladensabdfl: xsaver formulae of LSD, Alochol05:19
sabdflz4k4ri4: no, it will require some thought, and i'll send an email to -users05:19
JanneMsladen: no formula, just their shapes05:19
perdixrshortland: we are about humanity, your suggestion is cruel05:19
z4k4ri4sabdfl: hopefully doesn't differ too much from the consensus here05:19
sect2ksabdfl: might be nice to update the wiki with conclusions05:20
JanneMamazing - a whole meeting and not a simgle flame05:20
theantixJanneM: indeed!05:20
JanneMthis _is_ a nice community05:20
guptanwhere can I find the wishlist for ubuntu :)05:20
TheMusoJanneM: Thats a good thing IMO05:20
ogra_JanneM: ubuntu !05:20
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bdr"as friendly as a gentoo forum"05:20
sabdflbdr: we can only dream05:20
sabdflthanks everybody05:21
z4k4ri4It is over now?05:21
crabboxcheers sabdfl05:21
ogra_sabdfl: tanhkyoutoo05:21
thullyso, will we get the reverted default desktop with an apt-get dist-upgrade05:21
sabdfli think we can let the guys in need of support get their fix here now05:21
jdubooh! ooh! ooh! ubuntu!05:21
jdubooh! ooh! ooh! ubuntu!05:21
rshortlandbut it suits the general lack of mautriry that has been shown recently by the community05:21
theantixthanks for getting input and having patience sabdfl 05:21
jsci really like ubuntu .... one of the best i think05:21
bdrnow everyone go find bugs to report...05:21
sabdflwe're done05:21
z4k4ri4OK, thank you for listening05:22
=== z4k4ri4 must pay a bigger phone cost this month
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theantixI still can't believe I set my alarm for an IRC meeting :-P05:22
crabboxsee ya all later and have a nice morning/day/evening05:22
JanneMgood night05:22
kfischer_I do hope you will consider the regional-derivate thing a lot05:22
ogra_thenaix: i can't belive i made it through our firewall *g*05:23
bdrmust find food05:23
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regex_racoonWhere will the transcript of this go?05:23
sabdflthom, Keybuk, thanks for the ops support05:23
sabdflregex_racoon: i'll ask mako to put it with the community council transcripts05:24
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lIoNhEaRtI'm having problems with apache2 doing php [like its not]  why is this not easy to setup in ubuntu?05:24
regex_racoonThanks very much.05:24
guptansabdfl: thank you for showing ubuntu to this world :)05:24
lIoNhEaRtHas anyone else had problems?05:24
TheMusoguptan: It is not only sabdfl who is showing it. :)05:25
amin2so, the meeting is over ?05:25
danielsjdub: the thought of you with pom poms going GIVE ME AN OOOH! is troubling.05:25
bob2_lIoNhEaRt: is it segfaulting?05:25
ogra_sabdfl: it was a beautiful idea....very sad05:25
bob2_amin2: yes05:25
guptanTheMuso: I wud like to thank you all05:25
guptanbtw you guys finished?05:25
sabdflogra_: it will remain available, i've just got to settle the defaults05:25
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thullyso, the release still set for wednesday?05:26
TheMusoWell, I'd better go and get some sleep.05:26
ogra_sabdfl: i know....but default was better.....i was shocked by the community, it just started to fly05:26
lIoNhEaRtNo, not segfaulting, just the php is tryng to download as a file...05:26
TheMusoGot some accessibility stuff to write up tomorrow. :)05:26
bob2_lIoNhEaRt: are you using apache2?05:26
kfischer_sabdfl, I think it was the right step. And I am somewhat sad that it had to come this far.05:27
lIoNhEaRtyes - apache205:27
lIoNhEaRtthat appears default for ubuntu.05:27
ogra_kfischer_: seems that germany is REALLY liberal here :)05:27
bob2_lIoNhEaRt: did you install the right package then?05:27
Kamionthully: yep05:27
bob2_lIoNhEaRt: libapache2-mod-php4.05:27
amin2Can I edit /var/lib/dpkg  or /var/lib/aptitude and then do the aptitude install ~tubuntu desktop ???05:28
ogra_kfischer_: which impressed me.....05:28
guptanis there any plans to have bootsplash for coming ubuntu release, I love the bootsplash used in Live CD05:28
ogra_kfischer_: ...as a german05:28
bob2_guptan: no, there's a better solution in the works for hoary05:28
TheMusoguptan: I think I remember seeing a post about bootsplash causing problems, so they have something better planned for Hoary05:28
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lIoNhEaRtI then symlinked php4.load and php4.conf into mods-enabled05:30
bob2_lIoNhEaRt: it enables it by default05:31
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lIoNhEaRtOK, with or without the symlinks I get it trying to download the php files rather than interpret them :-(05:32
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mirak_-is the meeting over???05:33
bob2_mirak_-: yes05:33
kfischer_Well, see you around. And to cite a more or less unknown song: "get naked" :)05:33
mirak_-what was the final decision?????05:33
bob2_mirak_-: mark will be posting to the list05:33
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ogra_bye all ;)05:33
mirak_-bob2_, on the wiki???05:34
bob2_mirak_-: list.05:34
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discusanyone know how i can configure xprint to print from firefox ?05:34
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amin2Err http://archive.ubuntu.com warty/main ubuntu-base 0.305:36
amin2  Could not connect to archive.ubuntu.com:80 (, connection timed out05:36
amin2Failed to fetch http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/u/ubuntu-meta/ubuntu-base_0.3_i386.deb  Could not connect to archive.ubuntu.com:80 (, connection timed out05:36
amin2E: Unable to fetch some archives, maybe run apt-get update or try with --fix-missing?05:36
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu:Keybuk] : FAQ: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/ | Wiki: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ | Lists: http://lists.ubuntu.com/ | Bugs: http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/
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amin2hi i just "sudo apt-get dist-upgrade and above is the err msg05:37
JanneMamin2: try again in a few minutes. Normally that's just some temporary connection problem05:37
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bob2_seem to be some routing troubles down .au-way05:37
TelepI probably shouldn't say it here, but I'm considering switching back to Gentoo for a while, perhaps until Hoary.05:37
lucas_where can I find some info about building ubuntu derivates ?05:38
Riddelllucas_: I don't think there is any info yet, it's still in development05:38
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Riddelllucas_: what do you want to derive?05:39
Nonphasislucas_, why don't you just put a bunch of debs to apt sources?05:39
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amin2how could i customized the bootup process ? 05:39
lucas_for a lot of good reasons ;-)05:39
bob2_amin2: to do what?05:39
amin2such as: don't want to synchronize the clock to pool ?05:40
Nonphasisamin2, edit the init scripts?05:40
amin2edit or delete?05:41
bob2_amin2: use update-rc.d to remove ntpdate from the startup sequence05:41
Keybukamin2: /etc/rcS.d and /etc/rc2.d are the scripts run during boot, in numerical order05:41
Nonphasisamin2, chmod -x works at least05:41
bob2_Nonphasis: no, you don't need to edit anything05:41
Nonphasisbob2_, well, I meant "edit" in the wider sense of the word05:41
lucas_Nonphasis,Riddell: target is users who don't have internet access ; I'd like to backport a debian change to D-I so users can resize FAT32/NTFS partitions during install05:41
Nonphasislucas_, ok05:42
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Kamionlucas_: we'll be pulling that in directly after Warty05:42
amin2in suse, it has yast where you can check / uncheck. Is there any util in ubuntu ?05:42
Nonphasiswarty is out on wednesday, right?05:42
Kamionlucas_: by the time we really have good tools for building derivatives available, that change will be available too :)05:42
KamionNonphasis: right05:43
lucas_ah, it has been postoned ?05:43
RochaWhen will the final version of Ubuntu be released?05:43
lucas_I was going to ask if the artwork stuff would postpone the release05:43
Kamionlucas_: the change from 13th to 20th was a while back05:43
bob2_Rocha: 01:42 < Nonphasis> warty is out on wednesday, right?05:43
Kamionlucas_: no, the artwork stuff has not postponed the release05:43
Rochabob2_, thanks05:44
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lucas_oh ok, didn't see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/WartyWarthog_2fReleaseSchedule was changed05:44
Rochabob2_, I wasn't paying attention to the channel05:44
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amin2is there any doc book for ubuntu where i can tweak the system ?05:46
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lucas_amin2: if you can't find doc about ubuntu, look for doc about debian05:47
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amin2what is the diff between apt-get dist-upgrade and apt-get upgrade ?05:48
lupusdist-upgrade 05:49
whiprushdist-upgrade will completely resolve your dependencies, for better or worse.05:49
lupuswill add packages05:49
jdubdist-upgrade does some extra resolution which may change other package state05:49
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Nonphasisamin2, dist-upgrade gets you more stuff, and hoses your system w/ highir propability ;)05:49
Keybukupgrade might not upgrade things because it's scared05:50
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Keybukdist-upgrade will remove things because it's brave05:50
Keybukroughly, if an new version of a package introduces a conflict on another package, their behaviour differs05:50
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Keybukupgrade will simply not upgrade the package, and leave your system in the original state05:51
Keybukdist-upgrade will remove the conflicting package and continue the upgrade (in the hope of being able to put it back later, I think)05:51
whiprushI don't like how synaptic labels it "smart upgrade"05:51
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mvo_whiprush: why not? 05:52
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whiprushbecause it's not very smart05:53
jovian_hi quick question I tried to start rythmbox and it said it couldn't find a mp3 decoder which lib do I need?05:54
whiprush"well I see this obscure perl lib is off, let me remove evolution!"05:54
mvo_whiprush: it tries to be :) honest, what different wording would you suggest?05:54
jovian_im going through and it show mpeglib is installed05:54
whiprushoh I dunno.05:54
whiprushI never offer solutions, just problems. Heh.05:54
Kamionwhiprush: as I remember, the evolution removal a couple of weeks back was in fact due to the evolution and evolution-data-server packages getting out of sync and becoming uninstallable05:54
=== whiprush nods.
whiprushI never dist-upgrade so it just sat held for a bit.05:55
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Kamion(can't remember why it didn't just hold the whole lot back; I think there was some other factor as well)05:55
whiprushalthough I expect that won't be a problem for warty final.05:56
whiprusheveryone always recommends dist-upgrade and then people running sid who don't know any better end up with something busted.05:56
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mvo_whiprush: I think you should always look at the summary window before you apply the changes in synaptic. there is a column: "to be deleted" that should help here :)05:57
Kamionwhiprush: I tend to recommend dist-upgrade (or something similar) plus paying attention05:57
RochaDo you have any ideia why ubuntu may not find a cdrom?05:57
=== mvo_ nods
KeybukKamion: panel depended on the later e-d-s05:57
Keybukis usually enough to push it05:58
KamionKeybuk: ah yes, that was it05:58
amin2in cmd: aptitue install ~tubuntu desktop, what is ~tubuntu mean?05:59
Keybukamin2: the command is ~tubuntu-desktop, the ~t means "task"05:59
whiprushmvo_ / Kamion: heh, you don't have to tell me, I mean new users.05:59
solsTiCeRocha: a bug ?05:59
nosilver4ujovian_:it's not possible to play mp3s in rythmbox if you recently did a fresh install05:59
whiprush"well I read on slashdot to dist-upgrade .. whoops! My system broke lol."05:59
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nosilver4ubelieve me, i've tried everything that's been suggested, here, and by my linux-genius boss, and nothing works06:00
nosilver4uhad to revert to xmms06:00
jovian_really whynot?06:00
Keybukwhiprush: generally speaking, new/novice users will only dist-upgrade between releases.  It tends to be fine then, because the end result of each works06:01
nosilver4uprobably some config file that needs to be edited,  but i don't know where to look06:01
Keybukyou dist-upgraded at a point where the archive was actually broken06:01
jovian_ahh well thanks nosilver4u06:01
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whiprushKeybuk: right06:01
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amin2i'm a novice, i want to upgrade06:02
nosilver4unot sure if that should be filed as a bug, or if it was entirely intentional06:02
solsTiCenosilver4u: i installed gstreamer0.8-mad and I played mp2 with rhythmbox06:02
nosilver4uanyone in here know?06:02
nosilver4ureally? how about an mp3?06:02
nosilver4utried that06:03
nosilver4uthanks though06:03
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nosilver4uok, maybe not06:04
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nosilver4ujust checked, and it's listed as uninstalled06:04
nosilver4usomeone told me gstreamer-plugins would install all of them, but it didn't06:04
nosilver4uso i'm doing it now06:04
amin2i do the cmd: aptitude install ~tubuntu-desktop. it keeps install the evolution although i already removed it before using sypnaptic 06:05
nosilver4uok jovian, it works06:05
jovian_trtying myself06:05
Hmmmmm_guys which is the bestt bittorrent frontend?06:05
solsTiCeHmmmmm_: the one you like !06:06
Hmmmmm_solsTiCe, duh06:06
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spivamin2: evolution is in the ubuntu-desktop task, so installing that task will install evolution.06:06
amin2what files should i edit so that the cmd would not install it ?06:07
spivI'm not aware of any easy way to say "install ubuntu-desktop, except this one package" :/06:07
Keybukspiv: ~tubuntu-desktop!evolution  I think06:08
theantixHmmmmm_: I like bittornado-gui06:08
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amin2what if more than one files ?06:08
Keybukwell, blow me, that actually worked06:08
nosilver4uso everyone knows, if a newb needs mp3 support for rythmbox, tell them to install gstreamer-mad06:09
theantixnosilver4u: thanks for the tip06:09
nosilver4uthanks to solstice on that one06:09
nosilver4ueveryone vote solsTiCe for pres06:10
nosilver4uof the world06:10
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nosilver4usorry, i'll shutup now06:10
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jovian_well thanks for helping out nosilver4u06:11
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spivKeybuk: Time I learnt to become an aptitude weenie, maybe :)06:11
spivKeybuk: I'm still an apt-get user, most of the time...06:11
solsTiCeNoodles: you said you did it ? but why now it works ?06:12
littlepauldoes somebody know how to change the wallpaper automatically under gnome? Is there a script?06:12
Keybukspiv: aptitude is fun ... aptitude purge '~i!~Awarty' (purge everything not in warty) ... aptitude search '~i~suniverse' (show me what I've got installed from universe) ... aptitude install '~srestricted' (install the entire restrictied component)06:12
=== darksta