[12:01] <lamont> hppa UP 64-bit kernel (although there are 2 cpus in the machine...)
[12:01] <lamont> anyway, back to the topic at hand.
[12:04] <Kamion> I'd been keeping small local diffs for far too long
[12:09] <lamont> Kamion: heh
[12:14] <Mitario> hi guys, have any core ubuntu people taken a look at my 'updates' ideas?
[12:15] <Kamion> now isn't really the ideal time to get lots of feedback, I suspect ... :-)
[12:15] <Mitario> heh :)
[12:21] <jdub> this 'less to view tar.gz files' stuff is crack
[12:25] <mdz> jdub: why? I have used it for years
[12:26] <sabdfl> Kamion, mdz: limi's ppc just got blessed with the rc
[12:26] <jdub> it's not something that ever occurred to me (nor worked on debian)
[12:26] <sabdfl> and it used a network install to get the latest stuff
[12:26] <jdub> i did a reinstall on my ibook last night
[12:26] <jdub> FLAWLESS VICTORY
[12:26] <sabdfl> but it's still wants the cd for apt-get update etc
[12:26] <doko> jdub: I agree ;) but you see which effect default configurations have.
[12:27] <sabdfl> that's a bug
[12:27] <Kamion> that seems like a matter of opinion? I quite like it to be able to get packages from the CD when it can
[12:28] <sabdfl> Kamion: if the network is available during install, seems to me the network becomes the default
[12:28] <Kamion> not everybody has a fast network
[12:28] <sabdfl> aren't they already in a cache on the disk?
[12:28] <Kamion> no, we didn't have time to make that work properly.
[12:28] <Kamion> not for Ship.
[12:28] <sabdfl> i pointed this out as a bug before preview
[12:29] <Kamion> it's very complicated to make that work properly; I agreed with mdz to defer that
[12:29] <Kamion> we do the archive-copier thing for Desktop only, at the moment
[12:30] <Kamion> which fulfils the need to not require the CD in a default installation
[12:30] <sabdfl> understood
[12:30] <sabdfl> i've no objection to the cd still being useful
[12:30] <sabdfl> but if the network is there during install, why don't we default to uncommenting that apt source?
[12:30] <Kamion> we do, but the CD source is still there
[12:31] <sabdfl> but... then it prompts all the time
[12:31] <Kamion> that's apt's business :-)
[12:31] <sabdfl> and the usual behaviour is to install then forget about the cd
[12:31] <sabdfl> i think we should comment out the cd line altogether if network was available during install
[12:31] <Kamion> that makes the CD useless.
[12:31] <sabdfl> which was the behaviour i thought we'd agreed to
[12:31] <sabdfl> Kamion: it's useful for those who want to use it
[12:32] <jdub> sabdfl: forever, or just for the install?
[12:32] <sabdfl> it's useful for those who have no network
[12:32] <sabdfl> jdub: not sure i understand?
[12:32] <Kamion> they have to go and uncomment it again in sources.list, or else grovel about with dpkg
[12:32] <Kamion> maybe a sources.list reordering would suffice?
[12:32] <sabdfl> Kamion: how will reordering affect things?
[12:32] <Kamion> dunno, just throwing out the idea
[12:33] <Kamion> I think apt should get a grip and if the CD isn't inserted just go to the network rather than prompting
[12:33] <sabdfl> that's not something we can get right for warty
[12:33] <sabdfl> but commenting in or out we can
[12:33] <Kamion> this sort of sources.list hackery is also quite fragile ...
[12:33] <sabdfl> mdz: need your input
[12:33] <Kamion> the last couple of changes we made created bugs, as I recall
[12:33] <sabdfl> this is a wtf?? bug
[12:34] <jdub> sabdfl: asking if the cdrom line should be disabled forever if they have network, or only for the life of the install, so they're not prompted for it immediately.
[12:34] <mdz> sabdfl: ok
[12:34] <Kamion> jdub: they're never prompted for it immediately
[12:34] <Kamion> this is "do you want your CD to be insta-transformed into a coaster?"
[12:35] <sabdfl> jdub: i think it should be disabled post-install if we verified they could see the network repositories
[12:35] <mdz> sabdfl: regarding the cache thing?
[12:35] <jdub> Kamion: they're prompted for it as soon as the second stage install starts (this is the bug)
[12:35] <Kamion> jdub: huh?
[12:35] <sabdfl> Kamion: i've never used a cd more than once for an install, and user comments the other day suggest that's the common case
[12:35] <Kamion> jdub: surely not?
[12:35] <mdz> sabdfl: or ordering sources.list?
[12:35] <sabdfl> jdub: no, i don't think they are
[12:35] <Kamion> jdub: that's very different from what sabdfl just claimed
[12:35] <sabdfl> mdz: not the cache
[12:36] <jdub> is it?
[12:36] <sabdfl> mdz: does ordering apt sources.list affect the outcome of an update request?
[12:36] <Kamion> jdub: sabdfl's talking about apt operations after the install is complete
[12:36] <mdz> sabdfl: "sort of"
[12:36] <sabdfl> mdz: ok, then i think we need to update the way the sources.list looks post install
[12:36] <jdub> on my installs, if i elect to pull updates from the network,
[12:36] <sabdfl> if we verified that the machine could see the network archive then the cdrom should be commented out
[12:36] <mdz> it more or less affects the order in which the package records happen to be stored in apt's database
[12:37] <sabdfl> and the network should be enabled
[12:37] <jdub> i'm propted to put the cd in when it's apt-get updating
[12:37] <mdz> which coincidentally happens to cause it to prefer one over the other
[12:37] <mdz> if you reorder the lines in an existing sources.list, though, that doesn't really work
[12:37] <Kamion> jdub: that's a bug, and not one I've seen for weeks
[12:37] <sabdfl> jdub: hmm... that's definitely a bug
[12:37] <lamont> what about just making the CD's absense a warning instead of fatal?
[12:37] <mdz> it's sort of an accidental feature
[12:37] <sabdfl> lamont: affects synaptic, aptitude.... etc
[12:37] <jdub> Kamion: i'll double-verify it now
[12:37] <mdz> jdub: apt-get _update_?
[12:37] <Kamion> lamont: on update, it is
[12:37] <mdz> that never touches the CD
[12:38] <mdz> CDs are only scanned by apt-cdrom
[12:38] <Kamion> jdub: there was a brief bug where the three packages base-config installs before the rest of the second stage weren't on the CD, so it prompted for those
[12:38] <Kamion> jdub: but I fixed that a while back
[12:38] <sabdfl> Kamion: i think the explanatory text in sources.list above the cdrom entry can explain how and why a user would re-enable that
[12:38] <jdub> Kamion: that could be it, i'll try now
[12:38] <Kamion> sabdfl: does that show up in synaptic?
[12:38] <sabdfl> jdub: you using rc?
[12:38] <mdz> Kamion: no
[12:38] <sabdfl> Kamion: the cd prompt? yes
[12:39] <mdz> (the comments in sources.list)
[12:39] <jdub> i used a daily last night
[12:39] <sabdfl> :-)
[12:39] <Kamion> sabdfl: no, "the explanatory text in sources.list above the cdrom entry"
[12:39] <sabdfl> Kamion: no, good point
[12:39] <sabdfl> but i think it's clear that it's referring to a cdrom
[12:39] <Kamion> jdub: I happen to be trying with a daily now for other reasons
[12:39] <Kamion> well, if mdz is happy with some more dodgy shell in base-config ...
[12:39] <mdz> I think the right solution is to leave it as-is, but allow it to fall back from the CD to the network if the user doesn't put the CD in
[12:40] <sabdfl> mdz: how?
[12:40] <Kamion> mdz: that's what I thought would be most reasonable behaviour
[12:40] <mdz> sabdfl: patch apt
[12:40] <Kamion> so if you're on a slow network you can put the CD in and it'll use that opportunistically
[12:40] <jdub> mdz: agree (the endless "i really want the cd!" prompts are annoying)
[12:40] <sabdfl> i'd much rather be changing the shell that comments / uncomments sources.list than apt right now
[12:40] <mdz> jdub: yeah, I never really realized that it did that until Ubuntu
[12:40] <Kamion> sabdfl: remember that base-config changes can't be fixed on upgrades
[12:40] <mdz> I mean, who uses CDs?
[12:41] <sabdfl> Kamion: but source.list can't be meddled with on upgrades either, right?
[12:41] <mdz> Kamion: this can't be fixed on an upgrade anyway
[12:41] <Kamion> base-config changes are really persistent and really hard to undo from now on if we decide we made a mistake
[12:41] <lamont> mdz: only living breathing ones.
[12:41] <Kamion> mdz: yes it can, as soon as apt's patched, existing installations will stop asking for the CD
[12:41] <Kamion> sabdfl: ^-
[12:41] <mdz> Kamion: right, sources.list can't be modified on upgrade I mean
[12:41] <sabdfl> apt is deeeep voodoo
[12:41] <Kamion> indeed
[12:42] <Kamion> sabdfl: we employ the apt maintainer, it can't be that bad :)
[12:42] <sabdfl> and just because the witchdoctor is at hand doesn't mean it's where we should fix it :-)
[12:42] <Kamion> I think apt is exactly the *right* place for the fix
[12:42] <Kamion> it benefits far more people that way
[12:42] <sabdfl> Kamion: agreed, but balance that against the risk of a mess
[12:43] <Kamion> "my sources.list got screwed up on a fresh install of warty"
[12:43] <jdub> i'll call HR, see if i can find the apt maintainer
[12:43] <elmo> sabdfl: fwiw, if mdz thinks he can fix it, I actually think that's less risk than base-config hacks at this stage
[12:43] <mdz> the media change stuff is not _that_ hairy
[12:44] <elmo> jdub: har har, go on call Jane at 10 to midnight, dare you
[12:44] <mdz> not that I particularly want to take responsibility for fixing this at this late hour :-P
[12:44] <elmo> don't worry, she only sends out the pay checks, I'm sure yours won't get lost ;-)
[12:44] <Kamion> sounds like "if further records for this package are available, don't emit media change message"
[12:45] <mdz> Kamion: s/$/ again/
[12:45] <mdz> needs to keep some new state, etc. not entirely trivial
[12:46] <Kamion> I'll fix base-config if need be, but I'm concerned that we're regarding base-config changes as automatically lower risk than other things, when in fact they're often hairy changes to hard-to-understand code whose effects persist for a long time
[12:46] <mdz> seems to me the simplest way to fix this for Warty is to leave the stuff in the cache
[12:46] <Kamion> mdz: which stuff?
[12:46] <mdz> Kamion: the .debs copied from the CD
[12:46] <Kamion> we want to zap the .debs used to install desktop
[12:47] <Kamion> they're a huge space-sucker
[12:47] <mdz> right
[12:47] <mdz> but we can leave the rest
[12:47] <mdz> non-trivial, but low-risk
[12:47] <Kamion> that's a change to archive-copier and a rather easier change to base-config
[12:47] <mdz> the worst we do is waste some disk space if we err in one direction, or prompt for the CD if we err in the other direction
[12:47] <sabdfl> Kamion: mdz, i need to switch away but please ping me if you decide not to go ahead with a fix for this
[12:48] <mdz> sabdfl: this is very important to you?
[12:48] <mdz> for Warty?L
[12:48] <mdz> s/L//
[12:48] <sabdfl> mdz: i think it's terrible user experience to prompt for the cd *every time*
[12:48] <mdz> sabdfl: it's only for a very small number of packages
[12:48] <sabdfl> how so?
[12:49] <mdz> only packages which are in ShipSeed
[12:49] <sabdfl> and if we reordered the sources.list?
[12:49] <mdz> if we reordered sources.list, it would fetch everything from the network unless it was down
[12:49] <sabdfl> and if network was down, and it was a cd package, *then* it would prompt for the cd?
[12:50] <mdz> currently, it fetches ShipSeed from the CD and everything else from the network in the default case
[12:50] <mdz> sabdfl: I _think_ so
[12:50] <sabdfl> :-)
[12:50] <mdz> I know it falls back from one network source to another, but the CD stuff is a little different
[12:50] <sabdfl> deep voodoo indeed
[12:50] <Kamion> mdz: (which I thought was desirable behaviour - less network usage)
[12:50] <mdz> and I don't use it myself
[12:50] <Kamion> leaving the packages in the cache means that apt won't prompt unless you've done 'apt-get clean' or equivalent at some point
[12:50] <sabdfl> ok, because most users won't
[12:50] <Kamion> is there a big synaptic button for "clean cache" that users are likely to press?
[12:50] <sabdfl> if that's the solution it's fine with me
[12:51] <mdz> my take is that the simple stopgap is to seed the cache, and the long-term solution is to fix apt
[12:51] <sabdfl> i really think we should take the cd out of sources.list altogether by default
[12:51] <sabdfl> ship list is for expert users in any event
[12:51] <mdz> Kamion: even if we do it by using a copy of ShipSeed in base-config, that's actually fairly reasonable
[12:52] <Kamion> mdz: there's an easier way, but yeah
[12:52] <mdz> sabdfl: it's a FAQ, though
[12:52] <sabdfl> ok
[12:52] <mdz> "how do I get on the network with this crazy module I need to compile"?
[12:52] <Kamion> sabdfl: only in the same way as anything not in desktop is for expert users
[12:52] <sabdfl> ah
[12:52] <sabdfl> because build-essential is in ship not desktop
[12:52] <mdz> and linux-headers
[12:53] <sabdfl> so at this terribly late stage in the game can we make a small trade?
[12:53] <sabdfl> build-essential in exchange for banishing the cd prompt?
[12:53] <jdub> noooooo
[12:53] <sabdfl> is jdub listening?
[12:53] <sabdfl> guess so :-)
[12:53] <Kamion> ugh
[12:54] <sabdfl> ok, then no trade, please just banish the cd prompt if at all possible
[12:55] <Kamion> assuming this is acceptable:
[12:55] <Kamion> 23:51 < mdz> my take is that the simple stopgap is to seed the cache, and the long-term solution is to fix apt
[12:57] <sabdfl> fine by me if it will banish the cd prompt unless the user has done the apt-cache clean thing
[12:58] <mdz> sounds good
[12:58] <Kamion> believe so; I'll test tonight
[12:58] <mdz> I wonder if synaptic automatically prunes the apt cache
[12:59] <Kamion> candidate changes already made
[12:59] <sabdfl> Kamion: wow
[01:00] <sabdfl> thanks guys
[01:00] <Kamion> hm, can anyone test Greek on i386 for me? somebody claims it doesn't work, but it works for me ...
[01:00] <Kamion> I'll mail the diffs to mdz for ack
[01:01] <mdz> Kamion: I can "test" greek
[01:01] <mdz> meaning I can tell you if the machine catches fire
[01:01] <elmo> what crack is this mplayer stuff?
[01:01] <elmo> it produces mplayer-$ARCH named packages?
[01:02] <Kamion> mdz: about as much as I can do; you can probably also tell me if what base-config displays looks like Greek text or garbage
[01:02] <mdz> elmo: yes, optimised builds
[01:03] <Kamion> elmo: I thought it was mplayer-386, mplayer-586, etc.
[01:03] <Kamion> mplayer-g4
[01:03] <mdz> it used to be necessary because it couldn't do runtime CPU detection
[01:03] <mdz> but I think they fixed that
[01:03] <mdz> and marillat just continues to do them
[01:03] <Kamion> mdz: synaptic pruning> hope not, if so we'll have to back up and try something else
[01:03] <elmo> for christ's sakes
[01:03] <mdz> Kamion: checking it now
[01:03] <Kamion> mdz: (this is #2379, btw)
[01:04] <mdz> Kamion: default is to leave all packages in the cache
[01:04] <mdz> same as with apt-get
[01:04] <Kamion> mdz: awesome
[01:18] <sladen> and/or local on-disk archive (this would allow removing the reference to the install CD from sources.list)
[01:19] <Kamion> sladen: the latter's planned for Hoary, but requires some thought about the best way to allow a user to clean it up to save disk space
[01:20] <Kamion> it really should be considered a cache, but if you just blow away a local on-disk archive, apt will complain that it's missing
[01:20] <Kamion> ah, good, the 'apt-get clean' equivalent is buried in Synaptic -> Preferences -> Temporary Files
[01:21] <Kamion> jdub: current daily definitely doesn't require the CD here; if it does for you, shout quickly
[01:22] <jdub> nup, just got past that myself
[01:22] <jdub> rocking
[01:22] <jdub> stage 1 was very zippy
[01:22] <Kamion> good good
[01:22] <Kamion> it'll slow down a bit by copying Ship, but can't be helped
[01:23] <Kamion> and default disk space requirements will go up, but conveniently I never got round to reducing them after I made archive-copier stop copying Ship :-)
[01:23] <Kamion> so the docs'll still be accurate
[01:24] <jdub> heh
[01:24] <Kamion> lo, my procrastination has been vindicated
[01:25] <Kamion> mdz: multiple CD builds on a single day shouldn't require you to set DATE_SUFFIX any more
[01:38] <sladen> Kamion: indeed, and if they go along with the ``automatically update my system'' during startup, then the point of the cache/archive is nullified since there's bound to be a newer version of 90% of the stuff
[01:39] <Kamion> sladen: not once we release, there isn't, not for six months
[01:39] <Kamion> (modulo the odd security update)
[01:40] <sladen> this is a valid point...
[01:41] <Kamion> mdz: #2507, important to fix? it does seem to apply to us
[01:42] <mdz> Kamion: is it as trivial as it looks?
[01:43] <mdz> it's not critical, but nice-to-have-if-it's-safe
[01:43] <lamont> mdz: mplayer now d-w: libdivxdecore0, which is not delivered by any source in the archive...
[01:43] <Kamion> mdz: I don't know what that lt.l4 link is about
[01:43] <Kamion> the rest (and indeed that) seems entirely safe to me
[01:44] <Kamion> only affects udebs
[01:44] <mdz> as long as it doesn't ftbfs, seems safe to me
[01:44] <mdz> so feel free
[01:45] <mdz> lamont: is that not what we just synched?
[01:45] <lamont> no, we sync'd libxvidcore4 or some such
[01:48] <Kamion> mdz: hrm. involves another initrd build, though ...
[01:49] <mdz> Kamion: if you're not already planning to do another one, we can let it go
[01:49] <Kamion> I'm not, currently; I'll make the change in my local tree and mark it UNRELEASED
[01:52] <mdz> lamont: please track down whatever we need and get it into multiverse and ensure that mplayer builds
[01:52] <lamont> mdz: roger
[01:58] <mdz> the user must have helpfully typed some substring of narayannewton@gmail.com
[02:00] <Kamion> mdz: grr
[02:01] <mdz> Kamion: what does a low mem install change?
[02:01] <Kamion> all sorts of stuff; it basically disables internationalisation IIRC
[02:01] <Kamion> (along with other things)
[02:02] <Kamion> selecting a Portuguese keyboard seems to work for me
[02:03] <Kamion> I admit that I haven't really tested lowmem installs of Ubuntu much
[02:08] <sivang> does anybodu know why "Computer"-->"Disks" gives me the computer:/// vfolder?
[02:09] <mdz> sivang: yes
[02:09] <mdz> because that is what it is supposed to do
[02:10] <sivang> mdz : why not call it "computer" ?
[02:10] <mdz> sivang: Computer->Computer?
 /nick scotty
[02:11] <sivang> mdz : hhmm.. right. Well, I'll just explain this on the manual..that you can access the Computer VF from Computer->Disks
[02:11] <mdz> sivang: I think that people who know what the computer:/// vfolder is will not look in the documentation :-)
[02:12] <jdub> sivang: no point explaining mechanics
[02:12] <sivang> mdz : well, you're probably right..:) I'll just mention it there for those who don't 
[02:12] <jdub> "where do i get access to my disks?"
[02:12] <jdub> "Computer > Disks"
[02:13] <sivang> jdub : I'm just following what already the gnome user guide (2.8) has
[02:16] <lamont> seeds just pull in depends, not recommends, yes?
[02:17] <mdz> lamont: correct
[02:19] <mdz> lamont: any testing feedback for the live CD, apart from me?
[02:19] <lamont> you and amu, that's about it.
[02:22] <mdz> lamont: did you ask for testing on ubuntu-users?
[02:22] <elmo> heh, do we have a bug asking for 2.6.9 yet?
[02:22] <lamont> haven't sent mail, want to try fixing alsa first - have a fix from alex
[02:27] <jdub> elmo: don't encourage them. :)
[02:28] <mdz> base warty is 234M, not bad at all
[02:34] <mdz> hmm, that was with a full apt- cache actually
[02:34] <mdz> so a bit less :-)
[02:36] <sabdfl> mdz: have given jdub a rundown on the final artwork decision
[02:36] <mdz> for a moment there I thought you said you gave him a rubdown
[02:36] <sabdfl> seems appropriate :-)
[02:36] <sabdfl> i'll put up final gdm themes on my chinstrap home dir for testing
[02:36] <mdz> ok
[02:37] <sabdfl> jdub is qorking (!) up the calendar ackages
[02:37] <sabdfl> if those test ok then upload them
[02:37] <sabdfl> we'll probably want to do a final rev because i'll want to weigh in on the package descriptions
[02:37] <jdub> sabdfl: i'm going to tidy up the gdm theme xml
[02:38] <sabdfl> as in tidy -indent?
[02:38] <jdub> xmllint --format + brain tidying
[02:39] <sabdfl> jdub: ok, please document any additional changes for me to catch up on, because diff will break on the lint
[02:47] <sabdfl> ok, mdz, how does it look that we can make a final build some time tomorrow morning your time?
[02:48] <sabdfl> calendar package descriptions won't affect the cd, it won't be on the cd
[02:48] <sabdfl> so i'm done w.r.t. cd changes
[02:48] <sabdfl> promise :-)
[02:51] <sabdfl> mdz: ping ^
[02:51] <mdz> workrave
[02:52] <mdz> 2m
[02:54] <mdz> sabdfl: that sounds fine
[02:54] <mdz> sabdfl: all pending updates are in
[02:54] <sabdfl> except the theme, gnomesplash, and artwork-minus-calendar
[02:55] <mdz> s/updates/bugfixes/
[02:55] <mdz> sabdfl: so you decided not to put the calendar on the CD at all?
[02:55] <hornbeck> nice inotify in Hoary!
[02:57] <mdz> sabdfl: we need to come up with a name for the semi-official embedded warty I'm going to publish, since I need it for my gateway box
[02:57] <mdz> "uUbuntu", while cute, is neither pronounceable nor typable
[02:57] <sabdfl> mu-buntu?
[02:58] <vorlon> "
[02:58] <vorlon> .. bah, that didn't work. but yeah, mubuntu :)
[02:58] <vorlon> there we go, buntu
[02:58] <mdz> heh
[02:58] <mdz> not bad
[02:59] <sabdfl> elmo: alive?
[03:01] <daniels> fabbione: not really
[03:02] <mdz> Kamion: how are you going about it?
[03:02] <mdz> Kamion: removing debs for packages which are already installed?
[03:02] <mdz> I guess removing everything with an ubuntu-{base,desktop} task would do
[03:06] <lifeless> 
[03:06] <lifeless> 
[03:06] <lifeless> 
[03:06] <lifeless> hehehe
[03:07] <lifeless> if I compose those, my terminal shows them wonky, until they go from the edit line in irssi into the scrollback.
[03:07] <lifeless> weird.
[03:07] <lifeless> 
[03:07] <lifeless> 
[03:07] <lifeless> 
[03:07] <lifeless> 
[03:07] <lifeless> 
[03:07] <lifeless> 
[03:07] <lifeless> 
[03:07] <lifeless> no idea where my mu is
[03:07] <tseng> could you stop that
[03:07] <tseng> thanks.
[03:09] <sabdfl> mjg59: around
[03:09] <sabdfl> buntu
[03:09] <lifeless> thats the one
[03:09] <jdub> mdz: nanubuntu
[03:10] <lifeless> I just dunno the keyboard shortcut to do it.
[03:10] <jdub> plus you can make mork and mindy jokes
[03:10] <sabdfl> hmm... we should also have a nannybuntu, for mid-west / mid-east viewers
[03:10] <vorlon> lifeless: <compose>m+u
[03:10] <lifeless> 
[03:10] <lifeless> 
[03:10] <lifeless> bah.
[03:10] <lamont> mdz: building a new liveCD candidate for you: updated sound detection (we hope...), and slight changes to look more like base/supported seeds
[03:11] <lifeless> I'll piss tseng off again, wouldn't want bad karma 
[03:11] <sabdfl> lifeless: try the right hand alt, and m
[03:11] <mdz> lamont: ok
[03:11] <vorlon> ... I didn't mean you needed to test it in the channel more...
[03:11] <lifeless> 
[03:11] <lifeless> thats right-alt m.
[03:11] <sabdfl> yes
[03:11] <lifeless> vorlon: unless I hit enter, I can't actually see it !?
[03:11] <jdub> sabdfl: we aussies don't have compose set up by default. we don't speak no other englishes.
[03:11] <sabdfl> sigh
[03:11] <sabdfl> night all
[03:12] <lifeless> night
[03:12] <mdz> sabdfl: night
[03:12] <jdub> 'nacht
[03:13] <lamont> vorlon: I don't have a key labeled 'compose'
[03:13] <lamont> tseng: missing anything, I wonder?
[03:13] <tseng> ah nice, gtk-sharp made it this time
[03:13] <tseng> so monodoc should succeed on ppc, x86 next go around
[03:14] <tseng> and then with any luck the apps will build.
[03:14] <tseng> :)
[03:14] <jdub> "I have to admit that I find the black girl somewhat erotically arousing,
[03:14] <jdub> because you can see the fleshy base of her mammary and I am hardwired as
[03:14] <jdub> it were to be visually stimulated by such things."
[03:14] <jdub> ...
[03:14] <lamont> tseng: monodoc is arch: all only?
[03:15] <tseng> well it deps on gtk-sharp
[03:15] <tseng> which is only built on x86 ppc so far
[03:16] <lamont> mono doesn't list amd64 in the control file, so no build happiness there.  But mono is 32-bit only, yes?
[03:16] <tseng> so far
[03:16] <tseng> the short answer is yes.
[03:17] <jdub> the long answer is always 'maybe', which is indeed longer than 'yes'.
[03:18] <vorlon> lamont: no?  Mine looks slightly like a pull-down menu with a mouse pointer on it :-)
[03:18] <tseng> hm whats going on with muine
[03:19] <tseng> jdub: the long answer is more of a "sortof kindof"
[03:19] <lamont> vorlon: where, that's my question???
[03:20] <tseng> oh
[03:20] <tseng> After installing, the following source dependencies are still unsatisfied:
[03:20] <tseng> libgtk-cil(inst 1.0.2-1 ! << wanted 0.99) libgconf-cil(inst 1.0.2-1 ! << wanted 0.99) libgnome-cil(inst 1.0.2-1 ! << wanted 0.99)
[03:20] <tseng> Source-dependencies not satisfied; skipping muine
[03:21] <tseng> i see said the blind man.
[03:22] <mdz> ...as he picked up his hammer and sawa
[03:22] <mdz> saw, even
[03:23] <daniels> jdub: aren't we all?
[03:25] <vorlon> lamont: on my keymap, the menu key is a compose key.  I think I'm running a keymap that vaguely resembles the stock Debian dvorak X layout, but I could be wrong...
[03:26] <lifeless> menu key ?
[03:26] <mdz> the one with a little picture of a drop-down menu
[03:26] <mdz> on a 104-key keyboard
[03:26] <vorlon> on 104/105-key "Microsoft" keyboards.
[03:26] <lifeless> oh right,
[03:27] <lifeless> I have it, it generates '9~'
[03:27] <vorlon> #include "bitchy-rant-about-not-being-able-to-find-a-good-105-key-anymore.h"
[03:27] <lifeless> without the quotes
[03:27] <lifeless> just superglue an old good one to your laptop ?
[03:27] <vorlon> :)
[03:29] <mdz> I can get ubuntu down to about 130M without any trouble
[03:29] <mdz> should fit nicely on a 256M CF
[03:30] <lifeless> with jffs2 it should go way further down
[03:31] <mdz> I'm using jffs2 currently, and I'm sick of it
[03:31] <mdz> it doesn't support shared writable mmap, and it takes about 15 minutes to do its boot-time consistency check
[03:31] <mdz> I'm told the latter may be fixed in 2.6
[03:31] <mdz> but the former makes apt unusable, which is rather inconvenient
[03:32] <lamont> mdz: people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041019-02/warty-live-i386.iso
[03:33] <mdz> lamont: any point in trying to rsync against the last one?
[03:34] <mdz> assuming no
[03:34] <mdz> err
[03:34] <mdz> lamont: that image is 688,728,064 bytes
[03:34] <mdz> 650M = 681574400 bytes
[03:34] <lamont> mdz: no, not really
[03:34] <lamont> it turns to crap with the compressed image.
[03:35] <lamont> or must I prune?
[03:35] <mdz> some of them are
[03:35] <mdz> some are not
[03:35] <lamont> _mine_ all are... :-)
[03:35] <lamont> prune to 650MB?
[03:35] <mdz> the CDs we will be pressing are not :-P
[03:35] <mdz> (yes)
[03:35] <lamont> right
[03:37] <jdub> oof
[03:37] <jdub> wonder what the price difference is
[03:38] <daniels> http://www.livejournal.com/users/whirled/218294.html
[03:38] <daniels> warioware is eeeevviiiil.
[03:38] <lamont> mdz: what should be the first piece of desktop to go *poof*??
[03:39] <lamont> emacs21 would get me back under the size limit.. :-)
[03:40] <chrisa> Remove emacs, add vim-gnome
[03:40] <lamont> mdz: alien and friends can go, yes?
[03:40] <jdub> lamont: (some of those winfoss things are total crack)
[03:41] <lamont> jdub: which ones, and I'll prune the tarball
[03:41] <jdub> lamont: (i'm not going to claim final call on that, but it's an option)
[03:43] <lamont> celestia strikes me as fluff
[03:43] <jdub> mmm
[03:43] <jdub> 2.6.9 looks boring
[03:43] <jdub> not much change
[03:43] <jdub> let's ship it!
[03:44] <lamont> jdub: WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH JDUB???
[03:44] <jdub> haha
[03:44] <jdub> sometimes "no" gets boring
[03:44] <lamont> abiword  audacity  celestia  firefox  gimp  openoffice  pdfcreator  thunderbird
[03:44] <lamont> pick some
[03:44] <jdub> well, we don't even ship celestia
[03:44] <mdz> lamont: ttf-baekmuk?
[03:44] <lamont> we kinda depricated abiword, didn't we?
[03:44] <mdz> that might get you below the limit by itself
[03:45] <lamont> mdz: cool
[03:45] <jdub> no, abiword is just in supported
[03:45] <mdz> there are several big font packages
[03:45] <lamont>    <!-- <packagereq>ttf-baekmuk</packagereq> DOESN'T FIT-->
[03:46] <mdz> sorry, Korea :-(
[03:46] <mdz> someone has to take one for the team
[03:46] <mdz> or
[03:47] <mdz> we could remove lsb and libc6-dev
[03:47] <mdz> that might do it too
[03:47] <chrisa> lamont: abiword and pdfcreator
[03:47] <lamont> pdfcreateor is useful, though... celestia is fluff
[03:47] <lamont> mdz: trying one with ttf-baekmuk gone
[03:48] <lamont> stripping lsb will strip ubuntu-desktop, btw
[03:48] <mdz> lamont: what's this:  abiword  audacity  celestia  firefox  gimp  openoffice  pdfcreator  thunderbird
[03:48] <lamont> that's the windoze apps that are on the CD uncompressed
[03:48] <mdz> ah
[03:48] <lamont> I think abiword and celestia might make it so that korea doesn't have to take one for the team
[03:49] <mdz> we definitely want abiword
[03:49] <lamont> for windows?
[03:49] <mdz> yes
[03:49] <lamont> ok
[03:49] <mdz> celestia seems a bit esoteric
[03:49] <mdz> but that'd have to go through Mark
[03:49] <lamont> 720     disctree/celestia
[03:49] <lamont> 11968   programs/celestia
[03:50] <lamont> I could strip it for now.  Or Korea could be helpful
[03:50] <jdub> might be best to concentrate on smaller live-cd-not-required things
[03:50] <lamont> jdub: OK.
[03:50] <lamont> test build without korea fonts running, eta 30 min...
[03:51] <chrisa> Poor .kr
[03:52] <lamont> sigh.  home machine filled up.  Guess I have to remove some old ISO's. :-)
[03:53] <lamont> libc6-i686??
[03:54] <jdub> lamont: got that morphix grub thingy handy?
[03:54] <jdub> lamont: what order are the arrows in the bottom left?
[03:54] <jdub> down up or up down?
[03:55] <lamont> sec - gotta reboot
[03:55] <jdub> just check the image... :)
[03:55] <jdub> oh
[03:56] <jdub> if you're rebooting for this, don't
[03:56] <Kamion> mdz: no, much easier than that
[03:56] <jdub> but if you're rebooting otherwise, go right ahead
[03:56] <jdub> ;)
[03:56] <lamont> uh, what arrows?
[03:56] <jdub> in the pcx
[03:56] <jdub> down the bottom left
[03:56] <jdub> there are some bits of stuff
[03:56] <jdub> two arrow buttons
[03:56] <lamont> there's boot optoins and such, but I see no buttons
[03:56] <mdz> Kamion: don't keep me in suspense :-)
[03:57] <jdub> lamont: not on the boot screen, on the image itself
[03:57] <lamont> doh
[03:57] <jdub> heh
[03:57] <Kamion> mdz: we just move stuff at different times
[03:57] <Kamion> mdz: mail on its way to you now
[03:57] <mdz> jdub: what do you mean by smaller live-cd-not-required things?
[03:57] <Kamion> tested, works for me
[03:58] <lamont> jdub: left one up, right one down.
[03:58] <jdub> mdz: stupid shit you wouldn't need on a live cd; lamont mentioned alien
[03:58] <jdub> lamont: rock, thanks
[03:58] <lamont> ubuntu-desktop pulls in alien
[03:58] <mdz> jdub: why wouldn't you need alien?
[03:58] <mdz> lamont: alien is required by lsb
[03:58] <Kamion> not sure I see the absolute requirement to have ubuntu-desktop
[03:58] <jdub> on the live cd?
[03:59] <Kamion> it's not like you're going to be upgrading this, which is basically what u-d is for
[03:59] <mdz> jdub: morphix live CDs use an overlay filesystem, so you can install things
[03:59] <lamont> just added it because it was in the seed...
[03:59] <lamont> likewise, we could drop synaptic and friends, no?  But probably shouldn't.
[03:59] <mdz> no, for the same reason
[03:59] <Kamion> ubuntu-desktop depends on everything in the seed :)
[03:59] <lamont> just not from http repositories on this CD.
[04:00] <jdub> doesn't seem like we should bother supporting that too much
[04:00] <mdz> jdub: we shouldn't break it for the sake of ~2M
[04:00] <lamont> I'm happy calling http repositories an errata item for the liveCD. (caused we think by the funky FS hooks and sockets...)
[04:00] <jdub> mdz: alien was an example, i'm sure there are other things that are less useful on a livecd
[04:01] <jdub> lamont: want a new grub thingy?
[04:01] <lamont> yes, please
[04:01] <mdz> if you look at the live CD as a demo + rescue environment, pretty much everything is useful
[04:02] <lamont> doc-debian?
[04:03] <Kamion> that's tiny anyway
[04:03] <Kamion> hm, no it's not
[04:03] <lamont> I'd be more inclined to nuke that than korea...
[04:04] <lamont> does xscreensaver-gl buy us enough to justify?
[04:05] <lamont> and libc6-i686 has potential...
[04:06] <lamont> mdz: fwiw, the last several CD's have been too large...
[04:06] <azrail> question: I am looking to add a package to the ubuntu tree, whom do I talk to about doing such
[04:07] <Kamion> azrail: I meant the ubuntu-devel mailing list.
[04:07] <Kamion> azrail: ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
[04:07] <azrail> Kamion, blargh.
[04:08] <lamont> jdub: you sending me that image, or did my spam blocks take it?
[04:10] <lamont> daniels: for my clueless brain... there's a program somewhere in the x-pile that just reads keycodes and dumps their values to stdout.... What is it?
[04:10] <jdub> lamont: one sec
[04:11] <jdub> lamont: xev
[04:12] <daniels> lamont: xev, yah
[04:12] <lamont> thanks
[04:14] <jdub> tseng: yayayayaayya!
[04:14] <lamont> jdub: why so?
[04:14] <lamont> mono?
[04:15] <jdub> yeah
[04:15] <mdz> lamont: run dpigs on it
[04:15] <mdz> dpigs -100 -s /livecd/var/lib/dpkg/status
[04:15] <lamont> dropping ttf didn't do squat
[04:15] <lamont> ok.
[04:17] <lamont> you mean dpkgs?
[04:18] <lamont> or where does dpigs come from?
[04:19] <lamont> debian-goodies
[04:19] <lamont> 126784 openoffice.org-bin
[04:19] <lamont> 36096 emacs21-common
[04:19] <lamont> 28896 openoffice.org
[04:19] <lamont> 28604 evolution
[04:19] <lamont> 28156 gnome-applets-data
[04:19] <lamont> \
[04:19] <lamont> heh
[04:20] <jdub> they're crap, rip 'em all out
[04:20] <chrisa> I vote emacs21-common leaves
[04:22] <lamont> actually, ubuntu-desktop pulled in ttf-baekmuk.  time for it to die.
[04:23] <lamont> 23 minutes
[04:24] <lamont> jdub: timer is gonna be brown on brown...
[04:25] <jdub> lamont: isn't that what the little white line is for?
[04:25] <lamont> maybe. dunno
[04:42] <lamont> -rw-r--r--    1 root     buildd   676261888 Oct 19 03:41 warty-live-i386.iso
[04:42] <lamont> that better?
[04:43] <lamont> 645MB.
[04:45] <mdz> Kamion: still here?
[04:46] <mdz> lamont: yes
[04:47] <lamont> mdz: people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041019-03/warty-live-i386.iso
[04:49] <lamont> jdub: does mono deliver a jdk
[04:49] <lamont> ?
[04:53] <lamont> mdz et al: downloading?
[04:53] <Kamion> mdz: yes
[04:53] <lamont> jdub: this also has the new grub screen
[04:56] <lamont> mdz: I couldn't find divxdecode0 anywhere, but did see some comments about dealing with divx better in the vidxcore package, so I'm going to try building mplayer without it...
[04:59] <mdz> jamesh: heh, I just assumed that that drag-search-result-to-the-trash thing actually worked with the original trashcan
[04:59] <jamesh> mdz: nope.
[05:00] <mdz> lamont: don't you mean libdivxdecore0?
[05:00] <lamont> mdz: yeah. that one
[05:00] <mdz> lamont: you're sure you didn't search for 'decode' rather than 'decore'?
[05:00] <mdz> google finds many references
[05:00] <lamont> 99% certain...  yea, but no nice pretty debian packages that I could find.,
[05:01] <mdz> divx4linux (1:5.0.1-1) unstable; urgency=low
[05:01] <mdz>   * New upstream release.
[05:01] <mdz>  -- Christian Marillat <marillat@debian.org>  Sat, 27 Apr 2002 14:34:55 +0200
[05:01] <lamont> where!
[05:01] <mdz> google
[05:01] <mdz> _very first hit_
[05:01] <lamont> sigh.  saw that was clearly an email, ignored it..
[05:02] <mdz> it wasn't an email
[05:02] <mdz> it was a directory index
[05:02] <lamont> searching for libdivxdecore0?
[05:02] <mdz> yep
[05:02] <mdz> http://www.google.com/search?&q=libdivxdecore0
[05:03] <lamont> Index of doc/...?
[05:03] <mdz> correct
[05:03] <mdz> look in changelog, find source package name, search for <source package name> dsc, find source package
[05:04] <lamont> and go see mowgli, eh?
[05:05] <mdz> the man-cub
[05:05] <lamont> Guess I should test build it before I request the sync, eh?
[05:08] <lamont> mdz: except that said source doesn't produce libdivxdecore0
[05:11] <fabbione> morning guys
[05:13] <lamont> mdz: no joy here.
[05:14] <lamont> and mplayer apperas to be missing a builddep on xmms
[05:16] <chrisa> eh? mplayer shouldn't need xmms to build
[05:17] <lamont> cc: /usr/lib/libxmms.so.1: No such file or directory
[05:18] <lamont> configure ... --enable-xmms 
[05:22] <Kamion> mdz: uploaded
[05:37] <mdz> Kamion: does that require an initrd update?
[05:38] <Kamion> mdz: no
[05:38] <mdz> yay
[05:38] <Kamion> roughly speaking only udebs needed up to and including "Loading installer components from CD" are in the initrd
[05:40] <Kamion> anyway, long past my bedtime
[05:44] <lamont>  Log for successful build of mplayer
[05:44] <lamont> mdz: so... interesting thing...
[05:45] <lamont> if you take the source package in our archive, and you say 'dpkg-buildpackage -S', you get a source package without the libdivxdecore0 Build-Dep
[05:45] <lamont> so, can I upload?
[05:46] <mdz> lamont: fascinating
[05:46] <mdz> yes
[05:47] <Kamion> mdz: oh, before I go, did I understand sabdfl correctly earlier that he wants a final-candidate warty build tomorrow morning your time?
[05:49] <lamont> there are 4 debian/control files, and one of them gets copied into debian/control during debian/rules clean
[05:51] <lamont> mplayer uploaded.
[05:51] <lamont> the crowd may cheer.
[05:51] <lamont> now then, about java...
[05:51] <lamont> what should I install on my wife's computer?
[05:54] <lamont> so do we correct the people who call it 4.1?
[05:55] <lamont> jdub: was that grubscreen supposed to have different bands of color in the climbing timer?
[05:55] <Kamion> lamont: I've been doing so when I can be bothered
[05:56] <lamont> Kamion: it won't be to significant until 5.10 > 5.04 > 5.1 :-)
[05:58] <lamont> jdub?
[06:06] <lamont> should it look like that.  I mean, the bars are kinda unique on the countdown clock... Just wondering if it was intentional.
[06:28] <lamont> sigh.  libc_5.4.46-15 bootstrapped.
[06:28] <lamont> as did libdb_1.85.4
[06:35] <lamont> so did anyone download & boot 20041019-03?
[06:41] <lamont> Subject: mplayer_1.0-pre5-0.6ubuntu1_source.changes is NEW
[06:41] <lamont> because apparently "mplayer" != "mplayer"
[07:03] <fabbione> mdz: still around?
[07:14] <mdz> lamont: back
[07:14] <mdz> garage door repair was needed
[07:14] <mdz> Kamion: he said "tomorrow"
[07:14] <mdz> Kamion: it was not clear whether he meant yours+his or mine
[07:16] <fabbione> mdz: you got email :P
[07:17] <mdz> s/email/MORE email/
[07:20] <fabbione> no no.. when you get mail from me, they are always full of love :P
[07:42] <SuperL4g> Did I hear right that there was going to be some big discussion today about the artwork?
[07:59] <jdub> lamont: weird
[08:00] <jdub> lamont: i thought they were in the right spot for the arrows
[08:00] <jdub> SuperLag: that was on #ubuntu much earlier
[08:28] <fabbione> ARGH
[08:28] <fabbione> 2516 to 2521
[08:47] <fabbione> 11. Pressed PowerPC and AMD65 CDs Available
[08:47] <fabbione> WOHHAAAA
[08:47] <fabbione> AMD65 <--!!!
[08:48] <Keybuk> morning
[08:48] <fabbione> it must be cool :P
[09:28] <Mithrandir> fabbione: I guess they counted the nx bit as well, or something. :P
[09:28] <fabbione> ehehe
[09:34] <Mithrandir> fabbione: xfree doesn't put anything in /usr/X11R6/lib32, does it?
[09:34] <Mithrandir> (on amd64)
[09:34] <fabbione> no
[09:34] <fabbione> only {whatever}/lib
[09:34] <Mithrandir> yeah, good
[09:46] <sivang> morning all
[10:07] <Keybuk> glslideshow is a *bad* screensaver
[10:07] <sivang> Keybuk : why bad?
[10:08] <Keybuk> I fed it the directory with all my digital camera albums in it
[10:08] <Keybuk> and then I sit and stare at it for hours going "ooh, I remember that"
[10:08] <jdub> it seems to use gobloads of cpu, despite using gl
[10:09] <Keybuk> jdub: really?  it doesn't for me
[10:10] <jdub> i should try again on my desktop
[10:10] <Keybuk> doesn't use enough to seriously appear in top
[10:17] <seb128> morning
[10:46] <pitti> Hi seb128
[10:48] <seb128> hey pitti 
[11:40] <fabbione> daniels: ping
[11:49] <enrico> Hello all
[11:50] <__daniel> hai enrico
[12:44] <Kamion> oops, I broke the daily CD build script
[12:44] <Kamion> fixing ...
[12:46] <pitti> Kamion: is that the reason why there are still no dailys available for today?
[12:46] <pitti> Kamion: I'd like to test today's 
[12:46] <Kamion> pitti: yes
[12:46] <Kamion> today's is building now
[12:46] <pitti> oh fine
[12:46] <pitti> thanks
[12:46] <Kamion> I noticed when I also tried to test today's :)
[12:47] <Kamion> fallout from the attempt to make multiple cron.daily invocations on the same day work
[12:47] <pitti> Kamion: it's still the "old" artwork, right?
[12:47] <Kamion> kinda surprised I didn't get cronmail about the failure, though
[12:47] <Kamion> pitti: I've no idea if the new artwork has been uploaded yet; I haven't got to warty-changes in my mail-reading yet
[12:48] <pitti> Kamion: I read it, no changes until now
[12:48] <pitti> Kamion: I'm just not sure whether this must be changed in artwork or in /etc/skel, base-config or whatever
[12:52] <Kamion> just ubuntu-artwork (and possibly friends) as far as I know.
[12:53] <Kamion> I really hope base-config doesn't need to be changed, since that would directly imply that we weren't fixing things properly on upgrade.
[01:01] <sabdfl> Kamion: do you know if jdub uploaded new artwork, gdm and calendar pkgs last night?
[01:03] <Kamion> sabdfl: apparently not
[01:04] <sabdfl> 'k thanks
[01:04] <Kamion> I'll do a new CD build the moment I see them hit the archive
[01:05] <sabdfl> great
[01:05] <sabdfl> btw, limi's ppc build last night said "Debian/warty" or something like that in MacOS disk info
[01:09] <Kamion> pitti: new images up
[01:09] <Kamion> sabdfl: that's odd, I thought it had been Ubuntu/warty forever
[01:09] <pitti> Kamion: thanks! Sucking them now...
[01:10] <Kamion> Volume id: Ubuntu 4.10 ppc Bin-1
[01:10] <Kamion> hmm
[01:10] <mjg59> sabdfl: You were looking for me last night?
[01:10] <Kamion> oh, it'll be the HFS volid, not the ISO9660 one
[01:11] <Kamion> ./tools/boot/warty/boot-powerpc:echo -n " -part -no-desktop -hfs-bless CD$N/install -hfs-volid Debian/PowerPC_${CODENAME} " \
[01:11] <Kamion> bleh
[01:11] <Kamion> sabdfl: fixed, thanks
[01:11] <sabdfl> :-) you're welcome
[01:12] <sabdfl> Kamion: have you been drinking your merging potion?
[01:12] <Kamion> for post-warty?
[01:12] <sabdfl> i hope yo mama dropped you in it when you was a little boy, and it had a permanent effect
[01:12] <sabdfl> *
[01:12] <Kamion> currently here <------------------------> post-warty <-> the moon :-)
[01:13] <sabdfl> it's getting the 1st 200 km that hurts, trust me
[01:13] <Kamion> but yeah, I suspect I will be knee-deep in d-i merging for some time
[01:13] <Kamion> heh
[01:13] <mjg59> Hrm.
[01:14] <mjg59> We now stand a decent chance of some amount of StR functionality on most hardware for Hoary - it's getting that last bit that's going to be nasty
[01:14] <sabdfl> SR?
[01:14] <mjg59> Suspend to Ram
[01:14] <sabdfl> nasty? this is what we do before breakfast :-)
[01:15] <sabdfl> mjg59: please could you help elmo register buntu.(com/net/org) for us? i've no idea of the idn foo required
[01:15] <Kamion> mdz: do you want me to upload jigit, or are you on it?
[01:16] <mjg59> We're at the point where most hardware either wakes up to a good approximation of properly, or blows up immediately
[01:16] <mjg59> sabdfl: You want xn--buntu-7be.(com/net) - .org doesn't do IDN yet
[01:17] <sabdfl> literally xn--buntu-7be?
[01:17] <mjg59> The nc40xx series seems to be firmly in the blows up immediately camp
[01:17] <mjg59> sabdfl: Yup
[01:17] <sabdfl> wow
[01:17] <sabdfl> ok
[01:17] <Kamion> punycode is funky (in the RUN AWAY sense)
[01:17] <sabdfl> why didnt they just use utf8?
[01:17] <mjg59> DNS doesn't support 8-bit streams
[01:17] <mjg59> Or, rather, there are limites on what can go in an A record
[01:18] <sabdfl> mjg59: who on earth runs dns over anything else?
[01:18] <mjg59> Not all of ascii is valid, either
[01:18] <mjg59> You basically get alphanumerics and -
[01:18] <vorlon> the DNS RFCs strictly define the set of allowed chars in DNS records, and they felt they couldn't afford to break interop with existing implementations.
[01:19] <vorlon> Apparently not everybody on the Internet runs bind9 on Debian, bah.
[01:19] <vorlon> cut 'em loose, I say ;)
[01:19] <Kamion> the requirements draft puts it a little more strongly :-)
[01:19] <Kamion> [1]  The DNS is essential to the entire Internet. Therefore, the service
[01:19] <Kamion> MUST NOT damage present DNS protocol interoperability. It MUST make the
[01:19] <Kamion> minimum number of changes to existing protocols on all layers of the
[01:19] <Kamion> stack. It MUST continue to allow any system anywhere to resolve any
[01:19] <Kamion> internationalized domain name.
[01:20] <mjg59> Kamion: Do you still have that bastard evil VIA laptop?
[01:21] <Kamion> mjg59: yes
[01:21] <mjg59> Can I grab that off you at some point?
[01:21] <Kamion> mjg59: the C3? sure, I can drop it over today
[01:21] <mjg59> Cool.
[01:22] <mjg59> I /think/ it'll probably suspend/resume now
[01:22] <Kamion> rock
[01:22] <Kamion> is this with 2.6.9?
[01:22] <mjg59> Plus a couple more patches
[01:23] <mjg59> There were a couple of problems - firstly, the kernel was writing a virtual address to the wakeup register, not a physical one
[01:23] <Kamion> would you prefer it with or without a working install of something?
[01:23] <mjg59> Heh
[01:23] <mjg59> All I need is a kernel, bash, and scp
[01:24] <Kamion> I'll give you a full install then, less effort
[01:25] <fabbione> Kamion: ping me when ready to test the new iso's :-)
[01:25] <mjg59> Cool, thanks
[01:25] <Kamion> fabbione: any particular new ISOs?
[01:26] <mjg59> Ooh. ntfs support is getting closer to file creation/deletion
[01:26] <fabbione> Kamion: the one that will be final tomrrow? ;)
[01:26] <Kamion> fabbione: I'm sure it won't be silent here :)
[01:27] <vorlon> mjg59: hmm, there's actually been progress on that?
[01:28] <mjg59> vorlon: There's code for inode allocation/deallocation now
[01:28] <vorlon> last I asked, I was told that it *probably* wouldn't blow anything up as long as I was writing to an existing file whose size I didn't need to change. ;)
[01:28] <Kamion> now somebody please make parted support NTFS :)
[01:28] <mjg59> But yeah, the only safe thing is not to change the size yet
[01:29] <vorlon> doesn't it already?  Are we still using ntfsresize from partman?
[01:31] <sabdfl> mjg59: is StR going to basically require custom voodoo for each separate laptop?
[01:34] <Kamion> vorlon: the latter, AFAIK
[01:35] <Kamion> (Ubuntu isn't even doing that, because the change arrived late in our freeze period and it's a very scary change.)
[01:35] <mjg59> sabdfl: In the long run, no
[01:35] <Kamion> hooray
[01:36] <pitti> jamesh: I read in your blog that you are working on fancy panel icons for mounted devices, right?
[01:36] <vorlon> after all, it's just not right for there to be a Windows-related technology that I haven't touched from Linux. :)
[01:37] <pitti> jamesh: bug #980 is about that, can I assign it to you?
[01:37] <vorlon> ack, wait, this means I have to learn C# too, nooooo
[01:37] <jamesh> pitti: I'm looking.
[01:37] <mjg59> sabdfl: We still need to solve the video reinitialisation problem
[01:38] <mjg59> But other than that, the problems are going to be down to individual drivers that do the wrong thing
[01:38] <sabdfl> hey apparently there's a linux distribution that only runs perl
[01:38] <mjg59> Fixing most of those drivers is easy, but there's a lot of grunt work involved
[01:38] <sabdfl> we should ask them if they want to do it as a derivative
[01:38] <vorlon> what, like, init=/usr/bin/perl?
[01:38] <sabdfl> "pubuntu" :-)
[01:39] <sabdfl> poobuntu?
[01:39] <sabdfl> nah
[01:39] <jamesh> pitti: sure.  Go ahead
[01:39] <pitti> jamesh: thanks.
[01:40] <jamesh> pitti: if you are interested, a snapshot of my code is here: http://www.gnome.org/~jamesh/drivemount-new-20041014.tar.gz
[01:41] <pitti> jamesh: nice! How is it installed, is it kind of a daemon?
[01:41] <pitti> jamesh: so just run the program in the background?
[01:41] <jamesh> pitti: at the moment it is just an application.
[01:41] <jamesh> pitti: the plan is to replace the old drivemount applet with that code.
[01:42] <jamesh> pitti: It is using the same APIs as Nautilus to list, mount and unmount volumes
[01:42] <jamesh> so when I tell it to unmount the cdrom drive, Nautilus closes all the open windows for that volume too.
[01:42] <pitti> jamesh: so gnome-vfs2; sounds sane
[01:43] <pitti> jamesh: and the "current" one uses its own stuff?
[01:43] <jamesh> yeah.
[01:43] <pitti> jamesh: nice, then it should automatically use pmount
[01:43] <jamesh> pitti: the current one just calls mount and umount
[01:43] <jamesh> pitti: which also means that it can't unmount any volume with a trash directory (because of the dnotify watches)
[01:43] <pitti> jamesh: btw, I think this is the same with gnome-volume-manager; it shouldn't need an extra pmount patch, but it does ATM
[01:44] <pitti> oh, right
[01:44] <jamesh> pitti: my new code worked flawlessly on Ubuntu with the USB keys I tried
[01:46] <jamesh> so yes, it is working with pmount properly
[01:46] <pitti> jamesh: just tried it
[01:46] <pitti> jamesh: works nice!
[01:46] <pitti> jamesh: and as an applet this will be integrated into the panel, I guess
[01:47] <jamesh> yes.
[01:47] <pitti> jamesh: it's just a little disturbing to see five identical icons :-)
[01:47] <jamesh> pitti: it is asking gnome-vfs for the icon names, actually.
[01:48] <pitti> jamesh: I saw that the names appear as bubble help
[01:48] <jamesh> pitti: so if gnome-vfs provided different icon names, the applet would display different icons :)
[01:48] <pitti> jamesh: maybe Hoary's call can tell the drive types apart and we have different symbols for USB keys
[01:48] <pitti> jamesh: s/call/hal/
[01:48] <pitti> jamesh: I think I have seen sth about this on some utopia list
[01:49] <sjoerd> gnome-vfs+hal icons are a lot nicer
[01:50] <jamesh> pitti: on Fedora there is an updfstab program (part of kudzu), and it uses the product names to guess the device type
[01:50] <jamesh> pitti: it isn't perfect though, since if it doesn't find a matching entry in the config file, it sometimes doesn't end up mounting the drive ...
[01:51] <jamesh> (whereas the same USB key just works on Ubuntu)
[01:51] <pitti> nice to hear :-)
[01:51] <pitti> although I still get far too many "my drive is not mounted" bugs
[01:51] <pitti> although most of them are now kernel bugs
[01:52] <jamesh> the Fedora code also tries to classify different mass storage devices (eg. if it is a camera)
[01:52] <pitti> jamesh: hmm, g-v-m should take care of that in U
[01:53] <jamesh> which can really only be done by matching product names
[01:53] <pitti> jamesh: we currently use the presence of a dcim/ folder
[01:53] <pitti> jamesh: quite hackish, but works well so far
[01:53] <jamesh> yep.
[01:53] <pitti> jamesh: plug in a camera, see gthumb automatically open
[01:54] <jamesh> pitti: that also has the benefit that if you pull the memory card out of a camera and plug it into a card reader, it treats it the same as plugging in the camera.
[01:54] <pitti> jamesh: right
[01:55] <pitti> jamesh: a friend of mine was pretty impressed as he saw this work with his pcmcia card reader :-)
[01:55] <jamesh> so even when it misdetects something as a camera, it provides an option that the user probably wants :)
[02:17] <lamont> anyone test http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041019-03/warty-live-i386.iso  yet?
[02:26] <fabbione> lamont: downloading now
[02:26] <fabbione> i guess rsync is not worth...
[02:27] <lamont> rsync is useless for this
[02:27] <fabbione> ETA 40 min
[02:31] <fabbione> at what time is the meeting today?
[02:31] <fabbione> 16:00 UTC?
[02:31] <thom> uh, what meeting?
[02:31] <fabbione> Tech Board
[02:32] <fabbione> yeah it's at 16 UTC
[02:33] <fabbione> WHOO
[02:35] <fabbione> i need some extra crack :-)
[02:36] <daniels> four and a half hours?
[02:36] <Kamion> ETA 3:08; sigh
[02:36] <daniels> thom: wanna pick me up from the airport at 5:25? :P
[02:36] <thom> no, not really :P
[02:37] <daniels> i seem to bring all the red-eyes
[02:39] <daniels> XP and IE are horrific.  and I haven't got the softmodem working on the X40, and our USB ACM support is broken. yay!
[02:40] <fabbione> daniels: you want to take a look at 060_
[02:40] <fabbione> daniels: and probably push it upstream
[02:40] <daniels> fabbione: yeah
[02:40] <daniels> (so-called 'support')
[02:41] <daniels> fabbione: will do
[02:42] <fabbione> daniels: i am talking about X.org
[02:42] <fabbione> not Xfree86
[02:42] <fabbione> all the manpages where missing info :P
[02:42] <fabbione> just small details..
[02:43] <daniels> fabbione: huh?
[02:43] <daniels> fabbione: are you saying you want me to push xfree86's #060 upstream?
[02:43] <fabbione> no
[02:43] <daniels> ok ...
[02:43] <fabbione> i said push my 060 from X.org to X.org
[02:43] <daniels> is that in the xsf tree?
[02:43] <fabbione> yes
[02:44] <fabbione> committed 2 minutes ago
[02:44] <daniels> can you please put it up on rookery or something?
[02:44] <daniels> i'm on dialup here
[02:44] <fabbione> daniels: sure
[02:44] <fabbione> ahhh
[02:45] <fabbione> daniels: people/~fabbione/060_fix_XOrgManDefs.diff
[02:45] <daniels> thanks dude
[02:46] <fabbione> daniels: XORGRELSTRING is never defined
[02:46] <fabbione> same as the other one
[02:46] <fabbione> and the way in which the string is built is generally wrong
[02:46] <fabbione> that's a simple fix
[02:46] <fabbione> but there are better than that one
[02:46] <fabbione> just don't ask me to do one NOW
[02:47] <daniels> fabbione: ah thanks, I'll commit that
[02:47] <fabbione> check it first :-)
[02:48] <fabbione> just see man pages ike security._man
[02:48] <fabbione> or X.Org
[02:48] <fabbione> and see how it changes with that patch
[02:50] <daniels> yeahRSE, I HATE XP
[02:50] <daniels> yeah
[02:50] <daniels> oh my god, go away. ARGH!
[02:51] <daniels> 'you're obviously blind.  would you lie me to read everything aloud?')
[02:55] <mjg59> daniels: ?
[02:56] <daniels> mjg59: seemingly, every time I press something, the frigging Narrator dialog box comes up (well, THREE of them)
[02:56] <daniels> and I've had about 4 other a11y-related things pop upa t me
[03:57] <lamont> fabbione: word?
[03:59] <fabbione> lamont: ?
[03:59] <fabbione> excel?
[03:59] <lamont> livecd
[04:00] <fabbione> oh right!
[04:00] <fabbione> i forgot to burn it :P
[04:00] <fabbione> lamont: doing it now.. sorry.. got sucked in X.org documentation
[04:01] <fabbione> at least that package is almost done
[04:01] <lamont> heh
[04:01] <lamont> Kamion: 1659 - so hwclock.sh should modprobe rtc, eh?
[04:33] <fabbione> lamont: i can still read "welcome to MOrphix"
[04:36] <fabbione-live> well it boots :)
[04:36] <fabbione-live> but it`s odd because the fb goes up to 1600x1200
[04:36] <fabbione-live> X no
[04:38] <fabbione-live> hmm we can do better for hoary
[04:39] <lamont> fabbione-live: where is the 'Welcome to Morphix"?
[04:39] <lamont> which screen, that is.
[04:39] <fabbione-live> at the boot
[04:40] <fabbione-live> before it switches to fb mobe
[04:40] <lamont> ah, ok.
[04:40] <lamont> not the grub splash, and not the fb-mode stuff, but rather that short amount of text inbetween.
[04:40] <fabbione-live> correct
[04:43] <lamont> mdz awake yet?
[04:45] <fabbione-live> lamont: is there anything special you want me to test?
[04:46] <lamont> fabbione-live: well, everything.  But prior to asking on ubuntu-users, I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't process-b0rked. (bulk download here would take over a day, or cost me money...)
[04:46] <lamont> and still take 6 hours
[04:47] <fabbione-live> well... the games work <g>
[04:49] <fabbione-live> hmmm interesting
[04:49] <fabbione-live> it uses automatically a swap if it finds it
[04:49] <lamont> yeagh
[04:49] <fabbione-live> that means that if i suspend to disk using the swap partition i will lose my session
[04:50] <lamont> I expect so
[04:53] <fabbione-live> lamont: is there any option available for the user to avoid it?
[04:53] <fabbione-live> the grub session is simply too fast to have the time to read
[04:54] <lamont> fabbione-live:  dunno
[04:56] <lamont> hit a key during that 5 second window
[04:59] <fabbione> lamont: the problem is that sometimes my screen takes more than 5 secs to sync the freq
[04:59] <fabbione> and i can barely see the grub stuff
[04:59] <lamont> fabbione: you need a better screen, obviously. :-)
[05:00] <lamont> reboot, pause a few seconds, and then begin a rythmic tattoo on the shift key
[05:00] <lamont> :-)
[05:00] <fabbione> ahha
[05:00] <fabbione> any preferred song to follow?
[05:01] <lamont> shave and a hair cut is too short.. :_)
[05:01] <lamont> something with a good beat, obviously.
[05:01] <fabbione> you know.. Metallica might lead to the BIOS error: "Error detecting the keyboard. Please press F1 to boot"
[05:28] <Kamion> lamont: maybe only on architectures that have it, or maybe hwclock itself should do it in the code paths where it's about to access /dev/rtc
[05:30] <lamont> Kamion: could blindly modprobe it though, yes?
[05:31] <Kamion> s' probably OK, I think I'd be more comfortable with doing it only when it's needed
[05:31] <Kamion> (powerpc doesn't have rtc, wouldn't want to generate bogus error output there)
[05:31] <Kamion> but whatever flies :)
[05:35] <sabdfl> Kamion: any sign of those artwork packages?
[05:37] <Kamion> sabdfl: nothing on warty-changes
[05:53] <mdz> morning
[05:53] <T-Bone> evening ;)
[05:53] <mdz> Kamion: go ahead with jigit, you're best equipped to know when it's ready
[05:56] <fabbione> hey mdz
[05:56] <Kamion> yerk, we don't have wdiff in main?
[05:56] <fabbione> mdz: please discard my last mail
[05:56] <Kamion> mdz: ok, looking at it now
[06:00] <pitti> meeting time
[06:01] <fabbione> yup
[06:06] <pitti> mdz: sabdfl wants you in #u-meeting
[06:43] <lucas_> Hi, I need some help understanding the Ubuntu install process to fix a broken installation.
[06:43] <lucas_> After the reboot, how does the installer determines the packages he has to install ?
[06:43] <lucas_> (and which module of the installer does this work ?)
[06:47] <daniel_lunch> lucas_, i guess it's the ubuntu-*-packages it installs
[06:47] <__daniel> but i'm no ubuntu developer
[06:48] <lucas_> root@dell ~ # dpkg -l ubuntu-*-packages
[06:48] <lucas_> Aucun paquet ne correspond  ubuntu-*-packages.
[06:49] <thom> bsae-config is the package that does the work after the first reboot
[06:49] <__daniel> dpkg -l | grep ^"ii  ubuntu" ---> ubuntu-artwork, ubuntu-base, ubuntu-desktop, ubuntu-sounds
[06:50] <lucas_> thanks
[06:50] <lucas_> I don't understand why dpkg -l ubuntu-* fails to list them
[06:50] <__daniel> because it literally looks for "ubuntu-*"
[06:51] <Keybuk> lucas_: dselect update
[06:51] <__daniel> ubuntu-desktop and ubuntu-base should imho suffice
[06:51] <T-Bone> lucas_: maybe 'dpkg -l "ubuntu-*"'
[06:51] <lucas_> __daniel:               dpkg -l | --list package-name-pattern ...
[06:51] <lucas_>                   List packages matching given pattern.
[06:51] <T-Bone> with the quotes
[06:52] <T-Bone> otherwise your shell expands the "*"
[06:52] <lucas_> T-Bone: I thought of that
[06:52] <T-Bone> but i guess that's more a #ubuntu discussion
[06:52] <lucas_> I'll install ubuntu-desktop, thanks
[06:52] <lucas_> yeah, now it is :)
[06:53] <__daniel> T-Bone, i didnt want to leave it unanswered
[06:54] <lucas_> (btw dpkg -l "ubuntu-*" is still broken. never mind.)
[06:55] <T-Bone> [varenet@daffy ~] $ dpkg -l "ubuntu-*" | grep ii
[06:55] <T-Bone> ii  ubuntu-artwork 0.2.11-1       Ubuntu themes and artwork
[06:55] <Keybuk> lucas_: dselect update
[06:55] <lucas_> Keybuk: did it
[06:56] <lucas_> ok, found the problem
[06:56] <Keybuk> you should be able to dpkg -l on available but not installed then
[06:56] <lucas_> wrong xterm
[06:56] <lucas_> I just won the price
[06:57] <lucas_> bye
[07:29] <elmo> has anyone had any problems with postgres and HT?
[07:29] <elmo> (does anyone even use postgres in warty with a HT machine?)
[07:29] <T-Bone> lol
[07:58] <sivang> elmo : do you want someone to use it ? :)
[07:58] <sivang> elmo : I'll install it right away if you need
[07:58] <Kamion> people have confirmed ipw2100/ipw2200 to work in the installer, haven't they?
[08:04] <mdz> lamont: so, live CD
[08:04] <mdz> lamont: what has changed since last night?
[08:04] <mdz> Kamion: they have?
[08:04] <mdz> it appeared in the list, but I didn't actually test bringing it up
[08:04] <mdz> I'll do that in my next test
[08:05] <Kamion> thanks
[08:06] <sabdfl> Kamion: ipw2200 is still busted on the test laptop, but stays busted even with a compile of the latest module and firmware
[08:06] <sabdfl> bizarrely it did work at one stage but i haven't had the bandwidth to keep up
[08:07] <lamont> mdz: 20041019-03 had the newest kernel, -ttf-baekmuk.  20041019-18 is +ttf-bakemuk -win.celestia
[08:07] <mdz> lamont: what about the sound issue?
[08:07] <mdz> Oct 18 18:11:00 <lamont>        mdz: building a new liveCD candidate for you: updated sound detection (we hope...), and slight changes to look more like base/supported seeds
[08:07] <mdz> lamont: was that 1019-03?
[08:08] <lamont> yep
[08:08] <lamont> so it's pester alex time
[08:08] <lamont> but not in IM. :-(
[08:09] <mako> are we goig to need another release announcment?
[08:10] <mako> i think the delta from the RC announcment will be relatively small
[08:10] <lamont> mdz: But I'd like to push 1019-03 to ubuntu-users for exposure, with the caveat that sound is likely busted
[08:10] <mdz> lamont: absolutely, you said you were doing that last night
[08:10] <mdz> mako: yes, we are
[08:10] <mdz> sabdfl: should we hype up the final release announcement a bit, now that it's not vapour?
[08:10] <lamont> mdz: was waiting for a boot check, got that this AM, wondered if anyone wanted to review the mail to u-u before I sent it...
[08:11] <mdz> hmm, we're in DWN this week
[08:11] <mdz> due to this: http://www.advogato.org/person/mbanck/diary.html?start=24
[08:13] <Kamion> seb128: gataxx is still broken on amd64; I've got it network-connected now so I'm trying to debug
[08:13] <mako> it was a pretty good writeup
[08:14] <mako> i'm glad DWN picked it up :)
[08:14] <lamont> Kamion: can you fix the iso/bt info?  looks like Thom got the wrong image...
[08:14] <mako> azeem: good work sir :)
[08:14] <mdz> mako: agreed
[08:14] <Kamion> lamont: no, he didn't put it on little
[08:15] <lamont> it's on cdimage.
[08:15] <Kamion> lamont: which means it will very likely be deleted next cdimage sync
[08:15] <Kamion> lamont: cdimage == auckland
[08:15] <lamont> you want to put it on little and sync?
[08:15] <lamont> or is that really a thombot thing?
[08:15] <seb128> Kamion: still segfault ?
[08:15] <Kamion> yup, grabbing now
[08:16] <lamont> p.u.o/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/current/warty-live-i386-20041019-18.iso
[08:16] <seb128> weird I've tested the fix on an amd64 box it was ok
[08:16] <Kamion> seb128: right
[08:16] <Kamion> lamont: what's broken with the image again?
[08:16] <lamont> you mean known bugs?
[08:16] <lamont> the image he grabbed won't fit on a 650MB CD.
[08:16] <Kamion> lamont: no, "fix the iso/bt info" <-- that
[08:16] <Kamion> oh, I just need to refresh it?
[08:16] <lamont> yes
[08:17] <Kamion> ok
[08:17] <lamont> might not hurt to give it some more version-ish infrastreucture than sounder-test/live/warty-live-i386.iso, too.
[08:17] <Kamion> yup, I'll give it the same filename you did
[08:17] <Kamion> won't bother with anything more involved for this
[08:19] <mdz> lamont: acpid is not running on the live CD
[08:19] <mdz> that means no totally rad laptop support
[08:19] <thom> lamont: i got the one you told me to
[08:19] <lamont> thom:yeah, I screwed up the symlink
[08:19] <lamont> mdz: is that RC?
[08:19] <thom> putting it on little will be the best bet going forward
[08:20] <Kamion> thom: did you exclude /sounder-test/live/ from syncage or something?
[08:20] <mdz> lamont: not a showstopper, but it should be on the list
[08:20] <Kamion> I did a sync-mirrors but it doesn't seem to be appearing
[08:20] <lamont> mdz: right
[08:21] <lamont> but this sync means that I can drop the ttf-baekmuk issue
[08:21] <Kamion> gtk_gridboard_clear_pixmaps (widget=0x607d20) at gtkgridboard.c:530
[08:21] <Kamion> 530                             gridboard->pixmaps[x] [y] =get_pixmap_num(EMPTY);
[08:21] <Kamion> seb128: ^-
[08:22] <thom> Kamion: it's probably root owned
[08:22] <thom> one sec
[08:22] <Kamion> seb128: gridboard->pixmaps[x]  is NULL
[08:22] <lamont> mdz: I could just file bugs for some of them...  do we have a LiveCD component yet?
[08:22] <mdz> lamont: just file them against whatever and assign to alextreme
[08:22] <lamont> right
[08:22] <mdz> lamont: did you verify that -celestia +ttf-baekmuk was <=650M?
[08:23] <seb128> Kamion: you have the crash when you run it ?
[08:23] <Kamion> seb128: yes
[08:23] <thom> Kamion: ownership changed
[08:23] <seb128> arg
[08:23] <Kamion> seb128: you called the patch .crash
[08:23] <seb128> Kamion: I've named the patch .crash instead of .patch
[08:23] <Kamion> :-)
[08:23] <seb128> damnit
[08:24] <seb128> Kamion: I'll fix it now
[08:24] <seb128> still a time to do an upload ?
[08:24] <Kamion> Trying patch debian/patches/01_gridboard.patch at level 0...1...2...failure.
[08:24] <Kamion> mdz: does seb128 have time?
[08:26] <Kamion> seb128: you missed out a leading space from the 'for' line
[08:27] <seb128> yeah, I've fixed it here
[08:27] <amu> lamont: new iso is ready ? 
[08:27] <seb128> ready to upload if we have time
[08:27] <Kamion> seb128: I'd just go, don't think new artwork has been uploaded anyway
[08:27] <amu> ...live-iso 
[08:28] <lamont> mdz: yes.
[08:28] <lamont> mdz: issue was I had a bad symlink, and thom fetched the wrong iso.  hence explicit naming is a good thing,.
[08:28] <seb128> Kamion: ok
[08:28] <Kamion> thom: syncing again
[08:29] <lamont> amu: as soon as kamion/thom get done with it, it'll be at   http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/sounder-test/live/warty-live-i386-20041019-18.iso.torrent
[08:29] <lamont> (or without the .torrent)
[08:29] <lamont> amu: how's your overall bandwidth situation?
[08:29] <Kamion> lamont,amu: done, with .torrent
[08:29] <lamont> net bandwidth
[08:30] <Kamion> seb128: works for me with those changes
[08:30] <seb128> ok, cool
[08:30] <amu> ok d'l ... takes 30min.
[08:34] <mdz> amu: lamont mentioned you had compiled a list of live CD issues, could you send me a copy?
[08:36] <amu> mdz: a very quick & dirty thing, i tested it from the view as a user. There are many many more things :)      
[08:36] <seb128> mdz: still time for the gnome-games fixe ?
[08:36] <mdz> seb128: bug#?
[08:37] <Kamion> seb128: #2345
[08:37] <Kamion> oops
[08:37] <Kamion> mdz: ^-
[08:37] <Kamion> patch wasn't applied properly
[08:37] <seb128> mdz: it's closed, I've missnamed the .patch and it didn't get applied
[08:37] <mdz> seb128: ok, quickly
[08:38] <seb128> thanks
[08:38] <seb128> done
[08:39] <amu> mdz: send
[08:44] <mdz> amu: I haven't received anything via email, but lamont gave me a summary on IRC
[08:45] <lamont> mdz: those were the RC bugs I gave you..
[08:45] <mdz> that's all I'm interested in at this time
[08:46] <lamont> ok.  just forwarded amu's mail to @a.n
[08:46] <amu> Oct 19 20:40:42 bofh postfix/smtp[14768] : BBA518632A: to=<mdz@canonical.com>, relay=fiordland.warthogs.hbd.com[82.211.81.145] , delay=2, status=sent (250 Ok: queued as 35238B6801B)
[08:46] <lamont> just in case you want to upgrade any of them
[08:47] <pitti> sjoerd: easy fix, he was not in the plugdev group :-)
[08:47] <sjoerd> pitti: ah
[08:52] <amu> mdz: you need more input for hoary ?
[08:53] <mdz> amu: ?
[08:54] <amu> bug ( usability ) reports 
[08:54] <sivang> strange,
[08:54] <sivang> i get rejected by tracker error when trying to download lamont
[08:54] <mdz> amu: warty is our highest priority right now
[08:54] <sivang> 's new iso
[08:54] <amu> mdz: did you get my mail now ? 
[08:54] <sivang> anybody a clue?
[08:56] <mdz> amu: no
[08:57] <amu> mdz: stange, my log told me, it's delivered, kick your postmaster *g* 
[08:59] <mdz> amu: there are 4 hops between your relay and me
[09:00] <amu> ..ooO my homenet 
[09:00] <sivang> hi enrico!
[09:01] <mako> enrico: hey there
[09:01] <enrico> sivang: hello!
[09:01] <sivang> enrico : finally got my network working
[09:05] <gma> anybody had any experiences of getting black screens when running X on a dell laptop? even my old (working) config file doesn't seem to make any difference
[09:05] <gma> (otherwise, I'm a new user and love it)
[09:07] <gma> I plugged a monitor into my laptop and could get X working fine, so it might be something to do with the 1400x1050 TFT.
[09:08] <gma> I'm asking on here as I thought some of you guys might be interested in more info, which I'd happily provide if you told me what needs doing. the laptop is a few years old though (inspiron 5000), so may not be a priority for warty...
[09:09] <madduck> hi... can someone tell me why http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaintainerCandidates is "immutable"?
[09:09] <madduck> i wanted to add myself...
[09:10] <sivang> madduck : have you created a login?
[09:10] <sivang> madduck : you need to create a wiki name / login before
[09:10] <chrisa|dl> What does ubuntu use in place of debian's 'menu' package?
[09:10] <madduck> okay. makes sense. i missed the tiny buttons on the top.
[09:11] <sivang> madduck : I'm sure it happend to everyone at start :)
[09:12] <sivang> any of the desktop gurus, has the app switcher thingy that used to exist on the right upper corner been custumized removed from Ubuntu Desktop?
[09:12] <sivang> (i can't find it)
[09:13] <chrisa|dl> It's called "Window Selector" isn't it?
[09:13] <sivang> yes it is
[09:13] <sivang> sorry for that
[09:13] <sivang> :)
[09:13] <chrisa|dl> heh, your turn. I notice applications like gvim seem to get no menu entry
[09:16] <enrico> mako: around?
[09:17] <thom> chrisa|dl: yes, we're trying to keep the number of things in the menu as minimal as possible
[09:18] <chrisa|dl> thom: I figured as much
[09:18] <chrisa|dl> It never occurred to me that gnome seems to lack a simple menu editting interface
[09:22] <pitti> chrisa|dl: what about applications:///
[09:38] <mako> enrico: yes, i'm around
[09:38] <mako> enrico: was taking a shower :)
[09:46] <Kamion> mdz: I've uploaded jigit. OK to add to Supported?
[09:46] <Kamion> it's managed to grab an ISO correctly for me
[09:55] <mdz> Kamion: yes
[09:58] <Kamion> done
[10:05] <thom> crikey, it's the #debian-devel invasion
[10:05] <doogie> that's not the reason I joined.
[10:06] <thom> no, but the grouping was scary :-)
[10:06] <doogie> you're on #debian-devel, so can see my messages
[10:06] <thom> doogie: there are quite a number of ubuntu maintainers who are d-ds
[10:07] <doogie> yes, I know.
[10:10] <amu> $"%$!$! I need once a time a year a printer, exactly then it does not run
[10:17] <Kamion> mdz: did Keybuk tell you what he was doing with his ubuntu-artwork packages?
[10:18] <mdz> Kamion: no
[10:18] <mdz> is he asleep?
[10:18] <Kamion> apparently so
[10:18] <Kamion> 19:55 < Keybuk> right, I'm going to crash
[10:18] <Kamion> 19:56 -!- Keybuk [scott@descent.netsplit.com]  has quit ["Leaving"] 
[10:19] <seb128> "  * prepared and uploaded new ubuntu-artwork package"
[10:20] <seb128> perhaps the upload got rejected ?
[10:21] <Kamion> must have done ...
[10:21] <chrisa> Does ubuntu have something similar to packages.debian.org?
[10:21] <lamont> chrisa: not exactly...
[10:22] <Kamion> it *seems* to be in chinstrap:~scott/
[10:22] <chrisa> lamont: hrm, any easy way to check if a package is in the archive without having apt handy?
[10:22] <lamont> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/buildLogs/Lists has wanna-build dumps
[10:22] <lamont> and the log files are under buildLogs/....
[10:22] <doogie> is there a list of all existing ubuntu maintainers?
[10:23] <lamont> doogie: dunno if that's on the wiki yet or not
[10:23] <doogie> why would it be on a wiki?
[10:23] <lamont> because everything else is?
[10:23] <Kamion> we have nowhere else convenient to put it :)
[10:24] <doogie> link from the website?
[10:25] <Kamion> the wiki is where we do this sort of thing
[10:32] <lamont> chrisa: the w-b output is, of course, by source package
[10:33] <amu> lamont: http://amu.debian.net/tmp/linux.png
[10:35] <lamont> amu: ew
[10:35] <lamont> did anyone see my mail to ubuntu-users?
[10:40] <mako> how about a minimum system req faq entry
[10:40] <enrico> About the Wiki: can I make hierarchical wiki links in this MoinMoin?  If yes, what is the syntax?
[10:41] <mako> enrico: you can make pages with /'s in them
[10:41] <enrico> mako: So, a link like Foo/Bar will work and be regognized?
[10:41] <mako> enrico: yes, if you do the link specification stuff
[10:42] <enrico> mako: k, thanks!
[10:42] <chrisa> So if ubuntu took a snapshot of sid to start out before applying package modifications and such, how are credits with the original debian package maintainers handled?
[10:43] <Kamion> chrisa: can you clarify what you mean?
[10:46] <chrisa> Kamion: I think I answered my own question by looking in the buildd logs. I was curious how the Maintainer: field was being handled on packages taken from sid
[10:47] <chrisa> Looks like Warty/${ARCH} Build Daemon becomes the maintainer
[10:49] <lamont> chrisa: see also the Maintainer field on any non-maintainer-uploaded arch in debian
[10:49] <chrisa> lamont: yeah, that was silly of me
[10:50] <Kamion> chrisa: not quite ...
[10:50] <Kamion> chrisa: Maintainer: in debian/control != Maintainer: in .changes files
[10:50] <Kamion> chrisa: we leave the former alone
[10:50] <chrisa> Kamion: As lamont pointed out, I misread ;)
[10:50] <Kamion> chrisa: the latter always refers to the entity handling the upload, not the package maintainer
[10:50] <Kamion> ok :)
[10:51] <chrisa> So 'technically' I maintain some ubuntu packages till someone else updates them ;)
[10:51] <lamont> chrisa: even then, you maintain them.
[10:52] <lamont> ubuntu doesn't really have a concept of an individual owning a piece of codde
[10:52] <Kamion> we add ourselves to the top of debian/changelog, so Changed-By: differs, but apart from that ...
[10:52] <lamont> hence we don't mess with debian/control's maintainer: field
[10:52] <chrisa> Perhaps I'm misunderstanding how ubuntu snapshots sid then
[10:53] <Kamion> we take a copy of all sid's source packages
[10:53] <lamont> chrisa: for warty, it was "take a snapshot of all the source packages, as of 2004-06-28.  Now build them from source to produce binaries".
[10:53] <chrisa> ah, so it's something that will occur again in the future
[10:54] <chrisa> I was thinking it behaved more like a fork for some reason
[10:54] <lamont> well, hoary needs to take the latest sid + warty diffs.  the best technical/time-effective way to do that is still the subject of a little discussion
[10:55] <chrisa> Last stupid question, is multiverse part of universe?
[10:55] <lamont> so the base for release N is current sid, with the diffs from release N-1 merged in.
[10:55] <lamont> multiverse is beyond universe
[10:55] <chrisa> lamont: That clears that up, thanks
[10:55] <lamont> thank you Robert A Heinlein.
[10:55] <lamont> multiverse was the term he coined to include a multitude of universes.
[10:56] <lamont> so universe is the rest of debian main, multiverse contains things from contrib & non-free, and possibly others
[10:56] <chrisa> So for instance, the recent mplayer upload is in multiverse
[10:57] <lamont> for instance.
[10:57] <Kamion> BUGGER
[10:57] <Kamion> thom: around? need help uploading
[10:57] <thom> Kamion: um?
[10:57] <Kamion> thom: there's a half-complete copy of ubuntu-artwork in the upload queue, which I can't overwrite
[10:58] <thom> k, just gonna delete the lot
[10:58] <thom> gone
[10:59] <chrisa> Kamion / lamont: thanks
[10:59] <Kamion> thom: thanks
[10:59] <Kamion> hooray
[10:59] <Kamion> sabdfl: new artwork uploaded and hopefully building
[10:59] <lamont> chrisa: np
[10:59] <sabdfl> Kamion: whoop! thanks
[11:00] <mdz> Kamion: aha, thanks
[11:00] <lamont> Kamion: and you made the :00 cutoff, too.
[11:00] <thom> looks like scott uploaded a deb as well, and that make katie throw her toys out of the pram
[11:00] <Kamion> w00t
[11:01] <Kamion> thom: ah ... that explains it
[11:01] <thom> uh, s/make/made
[11:01] <thom> me spoke english real good. can do tenses 
[11:01] <Kamion> you it learn from a book!
[11:02] <lamont> thom: tentses
 rjk: are you getting bored of filling in all the sections of
[11:02] <Kamion> Component Build mails? ;-)
 i find your use of the present tense puzzling
 Oh dear.  Which tenses do you know?
[11:02] <thom> lamont: are those like toeses?
[11:02] <lamont> thom: you sleeps in tentses
[11:02] <lamont> you stands on toeses
[11:02] <thom> Kamion: *giggle*
[11:03] <lamont> Kamion: lol
[11:04] <enrico> What installation methods are supported for Ubuntu?  From CD, from Network, from USB key, from floppy, from magnetic tape, from windows installshield and... ?
[11:05] <Kamion> enrico: CD, network, and we sort of support cross-installing from another Unix system with debootstrap
[11:05] <Kamion> USB key definitely for Hoary, maybe floppy too
[11:06] <enrico> Kamion: "sort of support" means that it shouldn't be documented, I guess?
[11:06] <Kamion> well, no, I believe it works and the documentation is useful
[11:06] <Kamion> there's no time to change the installation manual further for warty, BTW
[11:07] <enrico> Kamion: don't worry, I'm not going to do that
[11:07] <Kamion> it's part of the debian-installer package, and rebuilding that is human-time-expensive
[11:07] <enrico> Kamion: I was just taking notes for a quickstart guide
[11:07] <enrico> Kamion: that can reference the install guide for more info
[11:07] <Kamion> when I say "sort of support" I just mean that I haven't tested it all the way through to bringing up an Ubuntu desktop
[11:07] <Kamion> the first stage certainly works
[11:08] <Kamion> it may require tweaking post-install, though, since it won't do everything that our d-i does.
[11:08] <Kamion> thom: do you have any idea about the firefox/j2sdk questions being asked on #ubuntu?
[11:09] <enrico> Kamion: I'll leave out the debootstrap for those notes, then.  The idea (as I posted to the list) is to have a quickstart that guides you all the way to subscribing to ubuntu-users, or ubuntu-welcome if we want
[11:09] <Kamion> lamont: your mail's made it through now
[11:09] <Kamion> enrico: we already have one of those, on the web site
[11:09] <enrico> Kamion: Plus a troubleshooting part
[11:09] <chrisa> crud, the installer didn't recognize any of the partitions on my WD 120GB drive (showed it as one volume, no partitions)
[11:09] <enrico> Kamion: link?
[11:09] <chrisa> There goes that idea
[11:09] <Kamion> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/howto/installation-i386
[11:09] <Kamion> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/howto/installation-amd64
[11:09] <lamont> Kamion: amazing what plugging in a keyboard will do for that server. :(
[11:09] <Kamion> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/howto/installation-powerpc
[11:09] <enrico> Kamion: thanks!
[11:10] <__daniel> Kamion, someone in ubuntu-de said it didn't countain libjavaplugin_oji.so - but he maybe was referring to another java thingie
[11:10] <__daniel> Kamion, which package were you talking about?
[11:10] <Kamion> enrico: it's not quite as far as you mentioned, but it's clearly the document where that sort of thing should live
[11:10] <Kamion> __daniel: I don't know anything about this, I was just asking thom about it since he did most of our recent firefox work
[11:11] <mdz> Kamion: are we waiting for u-artwork to build, currently?
[11:11] <__daniel> Kamion: right, i'll just ask the guy again
[11:11] <enrico> Kamion: are those pages modifiable?
[11:12] <Kamion> mdz: yep
[11:12] <Kamion> enrico: don't know, to be honest; I'd talk to silbs/lu when they're around, or mail ubuntu-devel@
[11:12] <mdz> Kamion: well-rested, I hope? :-)
[11:13] <enrico> Kamion: ok, thanks, I'll write to the list
[11:13] <Kamion> mdz: does five hours sleep last night count?
[11:13] <mdz> Kamion: no
[11:13] <mdz> Kamion: feel like a nap?  could be a long night
[11:14] <Kamion> I suspect I will try to grab some tonight rather than do the all-nighter thing again
[11:14] <mdz> do we have a target for the launch time?
[11:14] <thom> Kamion: not on #ubuntu
[11:14] <Kamion> ah
[11:14] <thom> Kamion: afaik, you need a j2re, which should contain the plugin
[11:15] <thom> then you need to smack that into /usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/plugins or similar
[11:15] <__daniel> Kamion, he didn't download a .deb - so it couldn't work
[11:15] <Kamion> just asking him about plugins now
[11:16] <__daniel> (because it didnt contain the plugin thingie)
[11:16] <thom> note i've never done it
[11:16] <thom> i've had quite enough java contamination from sys admin work, no need for more on my desktop :-)
[11:17] <lamont> mdz: I will need to be away tonight from ~1630 until 2200 local time (MDT/-0600), although I may be able to skip out on the last half of that.  Beyond that, I figure I'm around all night.
[11:18] <Mitario> does anyone know a working email addy for michael vogt? (pm)
[11:20] <thom> Mitario: Michael Vogt <mvo@debian.org>
[11:39] <mdz> Kamion: new ubuntu-artwork is in
[11:39] <Kamion> I was just about to check that
[11:40] <__daniel> good night
[11:40] <Kamion> am I OK to start the CD build?
[11:42] <mdz> Kamion: yes
[11:42] <Kamion> alrighty, they're on their way
[11:42] <jdub> hold on
[11:42] <Kamion> uh?
[11:42] <jdub> only uploading it now
[11:42] <Kamion> what?
[11:42] <lamont> jdub woke up?
[11:43] <jdub> i'm uploading all the artwork packages atm
[11:43] <mdz> jdub: hold on
[11:43] <Kamion> jdub: we already uploaded an ubuntu-artwork with the new images as best we could, you'll need to sync with those
[11:43] <mdz> jdub: an ubuntu-artwork has already been uploaded
[11:43] <jdub> oh
[11:43] <Kamion> am I to ctrl-C this build?
[11:43] <mdz> hold your fire
[11:43] <mdz> Kamion: nah
[11:43] <mdz> no harm in having a fresh build
[11:44] <Kamion> I don't mind if something supersedes that, but we needed to get something into the archive and didn't know when you'd be around
[11:44] <jdub> heh, morning .au time doesn't sound unlikely ;)
[11:44] <Kamion> we're already two or three hours behind the time this build was supposed to be ready
[11:46] <Kamion> anyway, Keybuk did these packages, but he's gone to sleep now; is more tweaking still required?
[11:47] <jdub> well, i consider these the gold release versions
[11:47] <Kamion> ok
[11:48] <Kamion> I'm off to Kirsten's for a little bit, will be back by the time the new packages are in the archive
[11:49] <lamont> speaking of artwork...
[11:49] <lamont> jdub: any more changes for liveCD grub?
[11:50] <jdub> lamont: how did it look?
[11:50] <lamont> likewise, clues on how to replace the gnome footprint with somethign else?
[11:50] <jdub> oh, stupid arrow bars
[11:50] <jdub> which one?
[11:50] <lamont> jdub: did you mean for the virtical bars to be multicolored?
[11:50] <jdub> no
[11:50] <lamont> people.u.o/~lamont/jdub-grub.jpg
[11:51] <jdub> yeah, saw earlier
[11:51] <jdub> it uses the scrollbar arrows for the bar for some reason
[11:51] <jdub> but it's in the same format as the morphix one
[11:52] <lamont> looks OK to me...
[11:53] <jdub> with that arrow problem, it's bong
[11:53] <lamont> gnome splash == the one that says "gnome 2.8" with a footprint, or has the ubuntu logo covering the blonde...
[11:53] <lamont> that splash
[11:54] <jdub> if that is still appearing on the livecd, we have a problem
[11:55] <lamont> the one on the livecd says "gnome2.8"
[11:55] <lamont> which is still a problem, of course.
[11:55] <jdub> because gnome-session's gconf schema defaults to the u-a symlink
[11:56] <jdub> what does 'grep -A 3 splash_image /etc/gconf/schemas/gnome-session.schemas' say on the livecd?
[11:56] <lamont> booting
[11:57] <lamont> also, still have the globe in the center of the screen shot for the boot splash.
[11:57] <jdub> ugh