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| === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Keybuk] : Technical Board Meeting 1600UTC Today: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda | ||
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| pitti | Hi sabdfl | 06:04 |
|---|---|---|
| Keybuk | (I'll be about 2 minutes) | 06:04 |
| fabbione | hi everybody | 06:04 |
| sabdfl | hey everyone | 06:05 |
| === silbs [~sbsm0084@host217-37-231-28.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| sabdfl | mdz around? | 06:05 |
| pitti | sabdfl: yes, in #u-devel | 06:06 |
| sabdfl | just pinged him | 06:06 |
| sabdfl | who else do we need? kamion? | 06:06 |
| pitti | me too :-) | 06:06 |
| fabbione | elmo perhaps? | 06:06 |
| sabdfl | Keybuk: ? | 06:07 |
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| sabdfl | Keybuk: ready? | 06:08 |
| Keybuk | yup | 06:08 |
| === Keybuk is running massively behind today; haggai popped in for half an hour and stayed for four :) | ||
| === sabdfl is running massively behind today. tla and postgres and make on macosx :-) | ||
| sabdfl | mdz: set? | 06:09 |
| mdz | yep | 06:09 |
| sabdfl | ok, warty status matt? | 06:09 |
| mdz | looks like no new critical bugs were opened while I slept, so currently we are still in release condition as far as bugs | 06:10 |
| mdz | Kamion: the archive-copier changes went in last night as well? | 06:10 |
| mdz | I haven't been able to check in with jdub since going to sleep last night, so I'm not sure about the status of his work | 06:10 |
| sabdfl | from my side, waiting only for new artowrk packages from jdub | 06:11 |
| mdz | lamont produced a working live CD at the data center | 06:11 |
| sabdfl | working? | 06:11 |
| mdz | I downloaded it and used it | 06:11 |
| sabdfl | network, apps? | 06:11 |
| pitti | mdz: I checked today's ppc image, archive-copier and stuff was okay | 06:11 |
| fabbione | sabdfl: yeps.. tested here too | 06:11 |
| sabdfl | great | 06:11 |
| mdz | tested network connectivity, firefox, openoffice, etc. | 06:11 |
| mdz | for some reason my sound came up muted | 06:11 |
| mdz | wireless was detected and the driver loaded | 06:11 |
| sabdfl | if we have to tweak live cd, does it involve package tweaks or is it all behind the scenes? | 06:12 |
| mdz | fabbione: was your sound muted? | 06:12 |
| mdz | sabdfl: in this case, we had to remove something | 06:12 |
| Kamion | mdz: yes, today's CD seems to work with it | 06:12 |
| fabbione | mdz: i don't have any speakers yet sorry | 06:12 |
| fabbione | mdz: they are still packed and they will be for a long while | 06:12 |
| mdz | sabdfl: the entire desktop set + the winfoss stuff was > 650M | 06:12 |
| mdz | just by a hair, but still over | 06:12 |
| sabdfl | reason for asking is if we can release tomorrow for install, and put out an rc livecd | 06:12 |
| silbs | lamont knows 3-4 issues (including sound) w/ live cd | 06:12 |
| mdz | sabdfl: if we could remove one of the winfoss apps, we could restore the font package we removed | 06:12 |
| sabdfl | lamont asked and i though we should drop a windows package rather than compromise warty | 06:13 |
| sabdfl | done | 06:13 |
| mdz | sabdfl: agreed, but I didn't want to do that without asking you | 06:13 |
| mdz | ok, let's drop that astronomical program | 06:13 |
| sabdfl | agreed | 06:13 |
| sabdfl | are the live cd issues fixable without package uploads? | 06:13 |
| sabdfl | in other words, can we consider the packages final for release? | 06:13 |
| sabdfl | are the fixes in the underlying layer? | 06:14 |
| mdz | I haven't caught up with lamont yet this morning, so I'm not sure what the issues are | 06:14 |
| mdz | I'll follow up after the meeting | 06:14 |
| silbs | 1) artwork will change | 06:14 |
| silbs | (16:20:56) lamont: 2) sound is busted some places (due to differences in hwdetection between morphix kernel and ubuntu...) | 06:14 |
| silbs | 3 was the space thing and 4 is 4) other hardware detection inconsistencies between live and install CD's exist. | 06:14 |
| mdz | 2) lamont said alex fixed | 06:14 |
| === lamont [~lamont@mix.mmjgroup.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| sabdfl | don't think we can do anything further about hw detection inconsistencies | 06:15 |
| mdz | 4) is a known issue we must live with for warty | 06:15 |
| mdz | it's a hoary goal to make it consistent across the board | 06:15 |
| === amu [~amu@195.71.9.198] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| sabdfl | we knew warty wouldn't have perfect consistency | 06:15 |
| mdz | lamont: you said alex fixed the order of sound device detection, right? | 06:15 |
| sabdfl | so i don't think should hold back the release | 06:15 |
| mdz | we can't call the packages final until we have final artwork, since that's in packaged form | 06:15 |
| lamont | mdz: he said he reveresed it, but didn't have a 2-sound system to check against. | 06:15 |
| mdz | lamont: give me a URL and I'll start downloading now | 06:16 |
| lamont | sound is still unhappy on my vaio | 06:16 |
| lamont | http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/sounder-test/live/warty-live-i386.iso.torrent | 06:16 |
| lamont | Or, if you can't use bit torrent, the actual iso is at: | 06:16 |
| lamont | http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/sounder-test/live/warty-live-i386.iso | 06:16 |
| mdz | ok, will test when I have it | 06:16 |
| lamont | building a new CD image +ttf-baekmuk -windoze.celestia | 06:16 |
| mdz | lamont: that still fits, right? | 06:17 |
| sabdfl | mdz: yes, but do the live cd changes also require package changes, or is it just the autobuilder that changes? | 06:17 |
| lamont | should. that's what I'm verifying | 06:17 |
| amu | looks like the problem is desktop <-> laptop systems based, i tested it today on 4 differnt systems, on laptops it fails on desktops sound works | 06:17 |
| mdz | sabdfl: the remaining changes are artwork (which requires package changes AND build system changes, I believe) and the changes lamont is doing right now (which are purely build system changes) | 06:17 |
| lamont | sabdfl: sorry that was to mdz. liveCD changes require (maybe) syncing the local mirror, and then turning the crank again | 06:17 |
| lamont | mdz: artwork --> package change, sync new packages into the right place, turn crank | 06:18 |
| mdz | lamont: you don't need to drop the splash image into place? | 06:18 |
| mdz | or the grub image? | 06:18 |
| Kamion | lamont: are you building locally now or in the LAN? | 06:18 |
| lamont | that's the package that has to get sync'ed/ | 06:18 |
| sabdfl | ok, but fixing sound, hw sync etc, that's an autobuilder change, not a package change? | 06:18 |
| lamont | Kamion: building home-edition right now, if it fits, I'll build the DC-edition | 06:18 |
| Kamion | lamont: 'kay | 06:18 |
| sabdfl | "ubuntu, the colorado hills edition" | 06:19 |
| sabdfl | "live, from colorado" | 06:19 |
| lamont | fixing sound/hw detection is possibly a major overhaul of morphix | 06:19 |
| sabdfl | pass | 06:19 |
| lamont | worst case, sound is a user-obvious case of the hw detection not meshing. | 06:19 |
| mdz | unfortunately, users will judge Ubuntu hardware detection based on the live CD | 06:19 |
| lamont | we tried the trivial workaround for that case in the current CD. | 06:20 |
| mdz | even though they're completely different | 06:20 |
| lamont | mdz: very true | 06:20 |
| sabdfl | hoary will be better, right amu? | 06:20 |
| mdz | amu: in my case, it was simply that the sound devices were found in the opposite order | 06:20 |
| mdz | on my laptop | 06:20 |
| mdz | since it has a modem | 06:20 |
| sabdfl | ok, artwork | 06:20 |
| sabdfl | did anyone hear anything from jeff today? | 06:21 |
| lamont | for hoary, since we already have all the autodetection in our kernel/X/whatever, it probably makes sense to just roll the morphix patches over and include things that way, I would think... dunno. | 06:21 |
| sabdfl | i saw a note about him going to a meeting | 06:21 |
| amu | sabdfl: i'm sure, with this manpower we reach asap world domination | 06:21 |
| sabdfl | 9am aussie time | 06:21 |
| sabdfl | but nothing fter that | 06:21 |
| lamont | btw, this liveCD has the latest grub screen from jdub | 06:21 |
| Keybuk | he was off to a presentation of some kind this morning (UK) | 06:22 |
| amu | mdz: I didnt tested why, i tested more basic things, works/works not | 06:22 |
| lamont | amu: much of your list was "not for warty" stuff, sadly. | 06:22 |
| sabdfl | we either have to build a new set of packages based on what jdub last pushed out, or wait for him, or call him at home | 06:23 |
| amu | lamont: ... i tested it from a view a user, which is imported for a user, in order to do his dayly work with it | 06:23 |
| sabdfl | i'd really like to have a final build tonight | 06:23 |
| mdz | we should call him | 06:23 |
| sabdfl | so we can get it mirrored ut | 06:23 |
| sabdfl | ok | 06:23 |
| mdz | it's only 0230 or so, no? :-) | 06:23 |
| Keybuk | descent scott% TZ=Australia/Sydney date | 06:23 |
| Keybuk | Wed Oct 20 02:23:51 EST 2004 | 06:23 |
| Kamion | let's wake him up if he's asleep | 06:24 |
| lamont | amu: understood | 06:24 |
| Kamion | he should be awake anyway :) | 06:24 |
| mdz | he did know that we wanted to do a build soon | 06:24 |
| fabbione | Kamion: eheh | 06:24 |
| Kamion | mdz: we can push stuff like jigit in post-CD-build, right? | 06:24 |
| amu | sabdfl: should be possible | 06:24 |
| Kamion | since it's Supported, not Base/Desktop/Ship | 06:24 |
| mdz | Kamion: into the archive? | 06:24 |
| sabdfl | no answer | 06:24 |
| mdz | yes | 06:24 |
| sabdfl | voicemail | 06:24 |
| Kamion | mdz: yes | 06:24 |
| sabdfl | how will we deal with the flood of "please get xyz version x..z into universe, it fixes a ton of bugs" requests? | 06:25 |
| mdz | sabdfl: "use hoary"? | 06:25 |
| lamont | sabdfl: will sync for hoary, I imagine... | 06:25 |
| sabdfl | ok | 06:25 |
| Keybuk | are we intending to update universe? I assumed that would be frozen like supported | 06:25 |
| mdz | Keybuk: correct | 06:26 |
| lamont | freeze the whole thing | 06:26 |
| Keybuk | so yeah, mdz++ | 06:26 |
| mdz | we've been very flexible with updating universe stuff up until now | 06:26 |
| sabdfl | during hoary's freeze, can we setup a process for the community to nominate and approve syncs without affecting the core team? | 06:26 |
| mdz | but we do have to call an end to it | 06:26 |
| mdz | sabdfl: hmm, could work | 06:26 |
| mdz | for universe | 06:26 |
| sabdfl | the "universe team" | 06:26 |
| mdz | "masters of the universe" | 06:26 |
| sabdfl | as long as they are sane and sensible, they could, erm rule the universe | 06:26 |
| Kamion | mdz++ | 06:27 |
| lamont | sabdfl: on the "should you care" front, much of multiverse is d-w j2sdk1.[34] | 06:27 |
| === Keybuk mops the tea from his monitor | ||
| fabbione | i am afraid that will give buildd (and lamont) a lot of headackes to unfuck * | 06:27 |
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| sabdfl | lamont: and in english? | 06:27 |
| sivang | howdy folks | 06:27 |
| lamont | lots of multiverse ain't built since we ain't got no java in multiverse | 06:27 |
| mdz | sabdfl: lacking java | 06:27 |
| lamont | oh wait. that was 'merican. | 06:27 |
| sabdfl | 'k | 06:27 |
| mdz | fabbione: build failures will be the responsibility of the universe guys | 06:27 |
| lamont | but warty remains warty. bug fixes for universe go into hoary. | 06:28 |
| amu | packages: evolution, well it has some nice feature like spamchecks or groupware, outlookplugins, i think we should add those depends | 06:28 |
| fabbione | mdz: i am more afraid of something that builds and kill the rest of universe | 06:28 |
| sabdfl | ok | 06:28 |
| sabdfl | just trying jdub's mobile | 06:28 |
| mdz | fabbione: also their problem | 06:28 |
| mdz | this is what it means for universe to be community supported | 06:29 |
| sabdfl | ok, let's move on | 06:29 |
| fabbione | mdz: in theory it works perfectly.. let's see how it goes in reality :-) | 06:29 |
| sabdfl | Hoary starter plans | 06:29 |
| Keybuk | that was mine, I think | 06:30 |
| mdz | I estimate we have a solid few weeks of work for the review and merge process | 06:30 |
| Keybuk | *swaps hats* | 06:30 |
| sabdfl | Keybuk: hct status? | 06:30 |
| Keybuk | what I was going to offer, for the review/merge process was setting up a temporary arch repository | 06:30 |
| Keybuk | import debian from warty freeze to current day into that | 06:30 |
| mdz | that includes a lot of stuff that we can't really automate, even with hct | 06:30 |
| Keybuk | import warty into that | 06:30 |
| Keybuk | that'll give us an easy merge to create hoary | 06:31 |
| mdz | we need to check which bugs have been fixed, even if they were done in a different way | 06:31 |
| sabdfl | "easy merge"? | 06:31 |
| Keybuk | sabdfl: hct is good, but without any arch imports it's not useful | 06:31 |
| Keybuk | sabdfl: well, I can do an hct tablecloth-trick (jdub's name :p) on it | 06:31 |
| sabdfl | how many packages did we touch for warty? | 06:31 |
| Kamion | fwiw I'm happy to merge d-i by hand; estimate about a week ... | 06:31 |
| Keybuk | sabdfl: many. many. many. | 06:31 |
| sabdfl | about 340 right? | 06:32 |
| mdz | sabdfl: at last count | 06:32 |
| mdz | that figure has only increased since | 06:32 |
| sabdfl | one option is to put the new things into hoary only | 06:32 |
| sabdfl | like x.org | 06:32 |
| sabdfl | gnome 2.9 | 06:32 |
| Keybuk | we can use hct to do the difficult bit, but as a general-use tool it's still waiting on those bloody imports :-( | 06:32 |
| mdz | 1018 source packages | 06:32 |
| sabdfl | stuff where we are really the head | 06:32 |
| mdz | 356 with ubuntu version numbers | 06:32 |
| mdz | so about 35% | 06:33 |
| sabdfl | and the number will only go up for hoary | 06:33 |
| Keybuk | what do we do with the rest of the packages? | 06:33 |
| sabdfl | (btw fantastic job warty team) | 06:33 |
| pitti | sabdfl: well, much stuff was sent upstream | 06:33 |
| mdz | pitti: yes, but we have no record of what was merged and what was not | 06:33 |
| elmo | I see more like 500 with ubuntu version numbers, including all components | 06:33 |
| sabdfl | pitti: yes, but a ton of stuff wasn't | 06:33 |
| mdz | and we have many changes which were not appropriate for upstream | 06:33 |
| fabbione | sabdfl: for x.org i need xfree86 too. that's not really an option | 06:33 |
| pitti | no, unfortunately not in an automated way | 06:33 |
| mdz | elmo: I was only looking at main | 06:33 |
| sabdfl | fabbione: so manage the transition? | 06:34 |
| sabdfl | s/so/to/ | 06:34 |
| mdz | elmo has said it is no problem to set things up so that we automatically sync stuff that doesn't have an ubuntu version number | 06:34 |
| fabbione | sabdfl: in terms of code we have 300K lines of patches from Xfree86 that needs to be reviewed to go into X.org | 06:34 |
| mdz | then we merge the remainder by hand | 06:34 |
| fabbione | sabdfl: that's just "upstream" transition | 06:34 |
| sabdfl | is that likely to lead to real breakage in dependencies? | 06:34 |
| fabbione | sabdfl: without taking into account all the packaging part | 06:34 |
| mdz | fabbione: daniel mentioned that 300k number as well; where does that come from? | 06:35 |
| sabdfl | since the packages we touched hardest are probably also most central? | 06:35 |
| mdz | there are less than 300k lines of patches in debian/patches | 06:35 |
| mdz | about half that | 06:35 |
| elmo | yeah, it's 492 including non-main components.. wonder why we ended up modifying so many non-main things | 06:35 |
| fabbione | mdz: wc -l debian/patches/* | 06:35 |
| mdz | sabdfl: yes, there will be dependency breakage | 06:35 |
| mdz | elmo: libtiff transition in universe, etc. | 06:35 |
| elmo | ah, right | 06:35 |
| Keybuk | elmo: lamont had a build-dep mania one day | 06:35 |
| mdz | fabbione: diffstat debian/patches/* | 06:35 |
| sabdfl | ok... this isn't an area where i can lead guys, you know best | 06:35 |
| Kamion | mdz: that will certainly result in much temporary breakage in d-i, but I think that's fine for hoary TBH | 06:35 |
| mdz | sabdfl: the issue is that we have a ton of work to do before hoary can really start to flow | 06:35 |
| mdz | sabdfl: which doesn't give us a break after the release at all | 06:35 |
| Keybuk | we have a semi-automatic solution that might work for everything we're not leading | 06:36 |
| Kamion | it'll take a few days to make d-i work for hoary anyway, for one reason or another | 06:36 |
| sabdfl | team deserves a break | 06:36 |
| Keybuk | things like gnome we're leading Debian anyway | 06:36 |
| === lamont must take a break post release, or find a new wife and a way to pay for the old one. | ||
| mdz | Keybuk: the semi-automation is not dependent on imports? | 06:36 |
| Kamion | $ ls src/ubuntu | wc -l | 06:36 |
| Kamion | 104 | 06:36 |
| sabdfl | Keybuk: what's the status on the imports? lifeless told me we were on our way | 06:36 |
| Keybuk | mdz: only package imports and I can do those and throw them away afterwards | 06:37 |
| Keybuk | sabdfl: well, arch.ubuntu.com hasn't changed in three weeks | 06:37 |
| Kamion | guess about half of those belong to me to merge | 06:37 |
| T-Bone | lamont: lol | 06:37 |
| mdz | we should do a manual review up front, before trying anything fancy | 06:37 |
| sabdfl | ok, i'll chase lifeless on the arch merge front | 06:38 |
| mdz | we can probably eliminate 25-50% of those packages because everything has been merged upstream | 06:38 |
| sabdfl | have mostly been focused on malone | 06:38 |
| mdz | based on changelogs | 06:38 |
| Kamion | mdz: hardest work will be stuff that's been branded, for sure | 06:38 |
| fabbione | mdz: 1499 files changed, 161366 insertions(+), 67008 deletions(-) | 06:38 |
| mdz | Kamion: agreed | 06:38 |
| sabdfl | are our own patches clearly separated? | 06:38 |
| Kamion | sabdfl: depends | 06:38 |
| mdz | sabdfl: only in a subset of cases | 06:38 |
| Kamion | sabdfl: you can't clearly separate patches to .po files and stay sane at the same time | 06:38 |
| sabdfl | so are you guys READY for tla? | 06:38 |
| mdz | sabdfl: no | 06:39 |
| Keybuk | patches to .po files are evil :-( | 06:39 |
| sabdfl | Kamion: right | 06:39 |
| mdz | rather, tla is not ready for us | 06:39 |
| sabdfl | rosetta :-) | 06:39 |
| fabbione | sabdfl: no for X.org | 06:39 |
| Kamion | sabdfl: yes, but even so | 06:39 |
| sabdfl | tla isn't going to improve soon | 06:39 |
| sabdfl | we have an arch team drill for two weeks before es-conf | 06:39 |
| sabdfl | but that's jsut where we will set the goals for usability | 06:39 |
| mdz | it would be much less work to bring the patches forward manually than to get up to speed with tla | 06:39 |
| mdz | everyone would take 30 packages | 06:40 |
| === Kamion is happy to use tla in a subset of cases, but wants to have a Plan B | ||
| sabdfl | the launchpad team has really battled with tla, and it's certianly not something i'm comfortable recommending for global FLOSS use | 06:40 |
| mdz | with any luck, 10 of those would be simple changelog review and revert to Debian | 06:40 |
| sabdfl | at the same time, it's proven fantastic when it works | 06:40 |
| Keybuk | sabdfl: did you read mako's blog entry? | 06:40 |
| sabdfl | nope, url? | 06:40 |
| mdz | that's not a huge amount of work for each of us | 06:40 |
| Kamion | (er, when I say tla I mean raw/hct/whatever) | 06:40 |
| Kamion | mdz: I think we could crunch through nearly everything in a week, personally | 06:40 |
| Keybuk | http://mako.yukidoke.org/copyrighteous/freesoftware/20041017-00.html | 06:41 |
| mdz | Kamion: we need to pace ourselves :-) | 06:41 |
| Kamion | a week of fairly solid work, but I don't think it'll be terribly *hard* work | 06:41 |
| sabdfl | or planet.ubuntu.com | 06:41 |
| sabdfl | yes, very well put | 06:41 |
| fabbione | Kamion: i agree..a lot of our local patches have been included in debian | 06:41 |
| sabdfl | the main issue is not that we can crunch through it, it's that sustaining the delta manually is just going to be "make work" without good tools | 06:41 |
| Kamion | and the packages we've changed are all hopefully packages we've become familiar with | 06:41 |
| sabdfl | at least that's how it seems to me, but you guys would know better | 06:42 |
| fabbione | mdz: pace? i wake up in the middle of the night yelling X.org :) | 06:42 |
| Keybuk | heh, I had a dream the other night in which everyone was a changeset and all trying to get through a single door | 06:42 |
| amu | lamont: pay for the old one ? a easy solution, poison her, you go into prison and you have all day time for hacking | 06:42 |
| mdz | sabdfl: that is correct | 06:42 |
| mdz | but the tools simply aren't ready yet | 06:42 |
| Kamion | sabdfl: that's true, but at the same time our feature goals for hoary are such that we need to have a place to put interim work on them fairly soon, without losing too much time with the tools | 06:42 |
| sabdfl | ok | 06:42 |
| Kamion | seems to me bringing up the toolset would be better done in the middle of a release cycle, where it can be more easily parallelised? | 06:42 |
| mdz | we can create a simple source-package-merge tool which can automate the cases where there are no conflicts | 06:42 |
| mdz | that's not hard | 06:43 |
| mdz | we can set up a notification system whenever a new merge is needed | 06:43 |
| sabdfl | one option is just to ignore it till we freeze hoary | 06:43 |
| sabdfl | because at least then the targete isn't moving so fast | 06:43 |
| sabdfl | so, start work on all the new things for hoary | 06:44 |
| sabdfl | push upstream as much as possible | 06:44 |
| mdz | you mean, ignore merging new stuff from Debian? | 06:44 |
| sabdfl | no, other way around | 06:44 |
| Keybuk | mdz: Debian hasn't moved a *huge* amount yet | 06:44 |
| sabdfl | ignore bringing forward warty stuff | 06:44 |
| mdz | Keybuk: the RC bugs we've seen fly by say otherwise :-/ | 06:44 |
| mdz | sabdfl: I don't think we can do that | 06:44 |
| sabdfl | ok | 06:44 |
| mdz | that would revert all of our branding, all of our bug fixes, everything we've done to make things work right | 06:45 |
| mdz | the merge will only get more difficult as time goes on | 06:45 |
| sabdfl | i'm just wondering whether it's more work to port it forward and then keep it merged as debian updates before we freeze | 06:45 |
| mdz | the right time to do it is immediately when hoary opens | 06:45 |
| sabdfl | or bring it forward when we freeze | 06:45 |
| sabdfl | but then we have to merge every time the relevant debian package updates | 06:45 |
| Kamion | in my experience, repeated small merges are less work | 06:46 |
| mdz | Kamion: agreed | 06:46 |
| pitti | Kamion: agreed | 06:46 |
| sabdfl | oh, ok | 06:46 |
| mdz | sabdfl: yes, but they're small, easy merges generally | 06:46 |
| Keybuk | Kamion++, keep the merges small | 06:46 |
| fabbione | Kamion: agreed! | 06:46 |
| Kamion | one big merge just becomes unintelligible and you end up breaking it down into repeated small merges anyway | 06:46 |
| thom | agreed | 06:46 |
| sabdfl | ok | 06:46 |
| Keybuk | elmo: ping? | 06:46 |
| elmo | yeah | 06:46 |
| sabdfl | well, lots of merge work for the hoary team will make them expert endusers for hct when it comes :-) | 06:46 |
| Keybuk | elmo: is there any way you can make the warty morgue available ? | 06:47 |
| mdz | we should schedule a Hoary kickoff meeting | 06:47 |
| elmo | Keybuk: it already is on rookery | 06:47 |
| mdz | that will include reviewing the list of potential feature goals, deciding what we can actually do for hoary, and breaking down tasks | 06:47 |
| elmo | last updated a week or so ago | 06:47 |
| Kamion | mdz: Thursday for sleep, Friday for meetings? :) | 06:47 |
| Keybuk | elmo: rookery doesn't have much on it though (like tla :p) | 06:47 |
| mdz | Kamion: thursday-sunday sleep, monday meeting? | 06:47 |
| Keybuk | and is rookery caneable? | 06:48 |
| fabbione | mdz: no later that 14:00 UTC please :-) or my future wife will hunt you down :P | 06:48 |
| thom | mdz++ | 06:48 |
| sabdfl | mdz: i figure you and the team will make the best call on merge strategy | 06:48 |
| sabdfl | please push the arch team to make arch suit YOU, not the other way around | 06:49 |
| pitti | adapt the problem to the solution :-) | 06:49 |
| mdz | sabdfl: yes, I have no problem with the strategy, only the fact that we don't have time to breathe between releasing warty and opening hoary | 06:49 |
| mdz | because opening hoary requires the huge merge effort | 06:49 |
| sabdfl | i think give your team the break | 06:49 |
| pitti | but we can take our time for it, right? | 06:49 |
| sabdfl | let's spend some time thinking about what we want in hoary | 06:49 |
| mdz | fabbione: that's 0700 here, which causes problems for MY home life :-) | 06:49 |
| sabdfl | the merge will go much faster if we have exciting goals for hoary | 06:49 |
| mdz | sabdfl: so, announce that hoary will remain more or less equal to Warty for a week or so? | 06:49 |
| sabdfl | i'm asolutely fine with that | 06:50 |
| mdz | ok, works for me | 06:50 |
| sabdfl | the warty team has put in a superhuman effort | 06:50 |
| mdz | they're chomping at the bit, but they'll survive for a week I think | 06:50 |
| pitti | I thought we sync all unmodified packages? | 06:50 |
| sabdfl | the last few days should have been a slight break since we were in such deep freeze | 06:50 |
| mdz | pitti: I don't think we should do that until we've reviewed the modified ones | 06:50 |
| mdz | otherwise we're likely to break deps all over the place | 06:50 |
| sabdfl | but everyone needs a proper release | 06:50 |
| pitti | mdz: we could employ the sarge testing scripts to check that deps don't break | 06:50 |
| elmo | mdz: that'll at least warn people hoary is a devel branch ;) | 06:50 |
| sabdfl | ok, so let's talk about the non-merge challenges for hoary | 06:51 |
| Kamion | pitti: we're already running them in report-only mode | 06:51 |
| pitti | so much the better | 06:51 |
| Kamion | pitti: http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~cjwatson/testing/ | 06:51 |
| mdz | I'd like to discuss the feature goals at the hoary kickoff meeting when everyone is around | 06:51 |
| pitti | Kamion: so would it be possible to sync all packages that don't conflict to anything? | 06:51 |
| fabbione | mdz: daniels and I will be busy on the X-Man meeting from the 1st of Nov. | 06:51 |
| sabdfl | ok, i'm more interested in discussing how we organise it than what the goals are | 06:51 |
| fabbione | mdz: for 2 full weeks | 06:51 |
| mdz | sabdfl: which aspects? | 06:51 |
| Kamion | pitti: I suspect that's more trouble than it's worth; sync 'em, let the team sort out the breakage | 06:51 |
| sabdfl | well, some of them are similar to warty | 06:52 |
| pitti | Kamion: okay, agreed | 06:52 |
| sabdfl | debian sid + stability and security | 06:52 |
| sabdfl | gnome 2.x | 06:52 |
| sabdfl | x.org | 06:52 |
| pitti | Kamion: I don't feel that tooo much will break | 06:52 |
| sabdfl | but some are also whole chunks of brand new work | 06:52 |
| pitti | Kamion: (as long as we don't sync older versions) | 06:52 |
| sabdfl | and that's something we didnt do for warty | 06:52 |
| sabdfl | new apps and applets | 06:52 |
| sabdfl | bootsplash | 06:52 |
| mdz | we did some smaller chunks of new work for warty | 06:52 |
| sabdfl | but much of that was opportunistic | 06:53 |
| mdz | right | 06:53 |
| sabdfl | which is easier to manage | 06:53 |
| sabdfl | i prefer to work opportunitically, frankly | 06:53 |
| sabdfl | but for hoary we have set some goals | 06:53 |
| mdz | for hoary, I think we'll trim down the list of feature goals to a subset which is achievable for hoary | 06:53 |
| mdz | and build a small team for each | 06:53 |
| sabdfl | either way, i think we'll find that the goals will fall on the floor if we don't start early | 06:53 |
| sabdfl | assign each goal to someone | 06:53 |
| mdz | there are a number of community members who are interested in working on the feature goals | 06:54 |
| Kamion | it'll be an interesting exercise in the first month or so discovering how much of what we've set ourselves is achievable; we haven't settled into time estimation yet really | 06:54 |
| sabdfl | or put a reasonable bounty on it | 06:54 |
| sabdfl | Kamion: agreed | 06:54 |
| sabdfl | it's that new aspect of things that i'm concerned about | 06:54 |
| sabdfl | we can do it | 06:54 |
| mdz | Kamion: as far as I'm concerned, everything on the page now is just brainstorming | 06:54 |
| mdz | we'll choose from that what we can actually do | 06:54 |
| sabdfl | but it's a new management thing | 06:54 |
| sabdfl | mdz: agreed, it's a wiki after all | 06:54 |
| mdz | much of it will fall to grumpy | 06:54 |
| sabdfl | estimating is very hard to do | 06:55 |
| sabdfl | i'd like to identify the things that are absolutely core and have our team do those | 06:55 |
| pitti | hmm, IMHO the most important Hoary goal is using the new infrastructure | 06:55 |
| sabdfl | everything else is nice-to-have and we put a bounty on it and try to steer the community in that direction | 06:55 |
| sabdfl | pitti: launchpad? | 06:55 |
| pitti | sabdfl: yes | 06:55 |
| mdz | current hoary feature freeze is February 7th | 06:55 |
| pitti | sabdfl: hct, arch, and this magic | 06:55 |
| lamont | mdz: +ttf-baekmuk - windoze.celestia ==> 329950 extents written (644 MB) | 06:55 |
| sabdfl | we'll have soyuz up and running in a week or two in view mode | 06:55 |
| Kamion | pitti: I tend to feel that the most important Hoary goal is to release in April :-) We need to convince the community that we can do this six-month release thing ... | 06:56 |
| sabdfl | malone sooner | 06:56 |
| sabdfl | Kamion: i agree | 06:56 |
| pitti | Kamion: okay :-) | 06:56 |
| mdz | so we will need to select goals where primary development can be complete in ~3 months | 06:56 |
| sabdfl | yes | 06:56 |
| sabdfl | that's why i was relaxed about the merging | 06:56 |
| Keybuk | Kamion++ totally | 06:56 |
| sabdfl | i'd almost like to get everyone excited about new feature goals and give people time to explore those | 06:56 |
| Keybuk | the most important thing for hoary is to nail the release datae | 06:56 |
| sabdfl | i don't want to be in the same situation we were in at oxford | 06:57 |
| pitti | Keybuk: I took this for granted | 06:57 |
| mdz | well, if we need to drop a new feature because it isn't ready, we can do that | 06:57 |
| sabdfl | with exciting new features creeping in very close to final freeze | 06:57 |
| === hornbeck [~hornbeck@adsl-69-153-250-222.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| Keybuk | sabdfl: fortunately December isn't close to freeze, it's actually a good time for development madness | 06:57 |
| sabdfl | so, for example, bzip should go in NOW | 06:57 |
| sabdfl | so we have time to tweak and tune | 06:57 |
| Keybuk | sabdfl: can I clear a day for that? | 06:58 |
| mdz | Keybuk: yes, the schedule meshes much better now | 06:58 |
| sabdfl | Keybuk: absoloodle | 06:58 |
| elmo | or decide that it's crack and not do it :P | 06:58 |
| fabbione | elmo++ | 06:58 |
| sabdfl | at the hoary launch meeting we can clarify all ofthis | 06:58 |
| sabdfl | but i wanted to describe the approach here | 06:58 |
| mdz | sabdfl: ok, so are you proposing that we isolate the core Hoary goals at this meeting? | 06:58 |
| sabdfl | this meeting now? no | 06:58 |
| mdz | ok | 06:58 |
| sabdfl | just agree that we'll work hard on those new feature goals sooner rather than later | 06:59 |
| sabdfl | otherwise they'll just fall on the floor | 06:59 |
| sabdfl | and i agree with kamion | 06:59 |
| mdz | of course | 06:59 |
| sabdfl | better to set the bar lower and hit the goal | 06:59 |
| mdz | it's juts that all of this is in direct conflict with giving the team a short break after release | 06:59 |
| sabdfl | well, change is a holiday :-) | 06:59 |
| sabdfl | for example, cleaning up that hoary list before the meeting will be relaxing | 06:59 |
| sabdfl | getting people to figure out what aspects they want to make personal goals | 07:00 |
| pitti | sounds nice | 07:00 |
| Keybuk | sabdfl: you find playing with that database schema from hell relaxing, though :) | 07:00 |
| sabdfl | Keybuk: i don't pretend to be normal :-) | 07:00 |
| Keybuk | I guess we should skip Hoary Release Plans until the meeting, seeing as the release manager's in bed ? :) | 07:01 |
| sabdfl | how effectively do you think we can get community interest in bounties up and running? | 07:01 |
| mdz | I think it's happening already, organically | 07:01 |
| mdz | I have several things queued up which could become hoary feature bounties | 07:01 |
| sabdfl | for example, if we publish a list of $100k's worth of bounties for hoary, are we likely to see interest? | 07:01 |
| Keybuk | yeah, I think the interest is ramping | 07:01 |
| sabdfl | i think we want to make them bounties, but with drop-dead dates | 07:02 |
| sabdfl | so people feel an urgency to actually deliver early | 07:02 |
| lamont | and those dates are pre-freeze, yes? | 07:02 |
| Keybuk | If they're cool things, I'd be surprised if we didn't get any interest | 07:02 |
| sabdfl | my experience with bounties in the past is that the take-up is very haphazard | 07:02 |
| mdz | deadlines like 2-4 weeks before feature freeze | 07:02 |
| sabdfl | mdz: but with milestone drops sooner rather than later | 07:02 |
| mdz | agreed | 07:03 |
| sabdfl | so maybe we say you can "stake a claim" to a bounty | 07:03 |
| sabdfl | but then you have to start producing code drops every two weeks | 07:03 |
| lamont | could be first code drop is your stake?\ | 07:03 |
| sabdfl | so people don't just sit on them | 07:03 |
| sabdfl | lamont: good idea | 07:03 |
| sabdfl | but people don't like to start work if they think someone else is already on it | 07:03 |
| sivang | true | 07:04 |
| sabdfl | simultaneously they dont actually work unless they think it could go to someone else | 07:04 |
| mdz | we have a number of projects which are bigger than one person | 07:04 |
| sabdfl | also true | 07:04 |
| mdz | is there a way to make team-based bounties work? | 07:04 |
| lamont | right - just means that you have a 2 week window from ITP to first drop... | 07:04 |
| sabdfl | mdz: yes i think so | 07:04 |
| sabdfl | need to appoint a team leader, and have them agree the rest | 07:04 |
| sabdfl | i'll have another person in the office here from November 8th | 07:05 |
| sabdfl | can keep track of bounties | 07:05 |
| sabdfl | so the admin should be straightforward | 07:05 |
| silbs | they should name their own team leader, not us. We shouldn't care if it's 1 person or >1 | 07:05 |
| lamont | right - any bounty could subcontract parts of it. | 07:05 |
| mdz | silbs: so our agreement would always be with one person, and if they divide things up as a team behind the scenes, that's their problem? | 07:05 |
| sabdfl | ok, anything else on how we'll organise ourselves for hoary? | 07:05 |
| mdz | we need to review the release schedule, but that can happen at kickoff | 07:06 |
| thom | mdz: that seems reasonable as long as they understand that | 07:06 |
| silbs | mdz: i think so. We don't want to be arbitrator of "X did more work than Y" | 07:06 |
| sabdfl | jdub put a note on the wiki that he will review the hoary schedule | 07:06 |
| sabdfl | bounties can be tricky | 07:06 |
| sabdfl | i had two guys arguing over who's PyGTK Exim Monitor was better | 07:06 |
| sabdfl | we'll figure that stuff out | 07:07 |
| Keybuk | sabdfl: before he does, it's worth finding out whether we want to tie it quite as closely to GNOME's as we did this time | 07:07 |
| Keybuk | mdz had a minor stroke when he realised seb was putting 2.8.1 on RC day | 07:07 |
| sabdfl | Keybuk, mdz, any reason not to tie to gnome? | 07:07 |
| sabdfl | oh | 07:07 |
| mdz | sabdfl: we need a buffer | 07:07 |
| sabdfl | i think we should plan to make our preview on gnome 2.10 | 07:07 |
| mdz | we can't have new upstream releases going in an hour before we roll the release | 07:07 |
| sabdfl | and our release gnome 2.10.1 + x days | 07:07 |
| sabdfl | mdz: we CAN, it's just not sensible ;-) | 07:08 |
| mdz | for warty, it has actually interfered with building the CD images | 07:08 |
| mdz | we need +1 day at least | 07:08 |
| sabdfl | how many days are a sane pressure release? | 07:08 |
| Keybuk | how many days of testng do we need before we're happy to begin rolling things? | 07:08 |
| sabdfl | 3? | 07:08 |
| fabbione | sabdfl, mdz: we also need to kill the overlap between releasing stable and the first CD of the next release | 07:08 |
| sabdfl | fabbione: yes, agreed | 07:08 |
| sabdfl | hmm... | 07:08 |
| mdz | the GNOME point releases are generally very sane | 07:08 |
| mdz | we just need to avoid having the stuff happen at exactly the same time | 07:09 |
| sabdfl | will we start grumpy rolling when we freeze hoary? | 07:09 |
| mdz | 3 days should be fine | 07:09 |
| mdz | sabdfl: not unless we have automated merge capability | 07:09 |
| mdz | we can't divert effort to manual merging at that time | 07:09 |
| sabdfl | ok, so plan for preview on gnome 2.10, final on gnome 2.10.1+3d | 07:09 |
| sabdfl | mdz: yes, agreed | 07:09 |
| mdz | Keybuk: 27 December? | 07:09 |
| sabdfl | what date is that currently? | 07:09 |
| sabdfl | mdz: stop doing that, it freaks me out | 07:10 |
| mdz | sabdfl: ^^ | 07:10 |
| Keybuk | mdz: what's 27th December ? | 07:10 |
| sabdfl | :-) | 07:10 |
| mdz | Keybuk: upstream version freeze | 07:10 |
| pitti | feature freeze? | 07:10 |
| Keybuk | my stuff will be ready well before then, the arch import team need a Saturn V up their arse though to get them moving :p | 07:10 |
| sabdfl | Keybuk: incoming | 07:11 |
| mdz | upstream freeze is probably the earliest we would want to do it | 07:11 |
| mdz | we should "encourage" folks to stick with hoary for as long as possible, to get testing | 07:11 |
| Keybuk | sabdfl: incoming to where? | 07:11 |
| sabdfl | hmm... perhaps we could create a grumpy team | 07:11 |
| sabdfl | community | 07:11 |
| sabdfl | that uses hct to do the merging | 07:12 |
| sabdfl | while we keep working on hoary | 07:12 |
| fabbione | sabdfl, mdz: opening grumpy when we release RC should be ok i think.. | 07:12 |
| sabdfl | i envisage in future we'll have a "stable" team of two or three that keeps working on warty, say | 07:12 |
| mdz | fabbione: that's far too late in my opinion | 07:12 |
| sabdfl | so there could be an advance guard and a rearguard | 07:12 |
| sabdfl | i wouldn't want to distract the core team with the merge issues | 07:13 |
| sabdfl | anyhow, future problem | 07:13 |
| sabdfl | next on the agenda | 07:13 |
| fabbione | mdz: opening un unstable too early will take away the community from stable. | 07:13 |
| sabdfl | policies and procedures for security | 07:13 |
| mdz | right | 07:13 |
| sabdfl | matt? | 07:13 |
| mdz | for Warty | 07:13 |
| Kamion | Keybuk: incoming> their arse, presumably? :) | 07:13 |
| sivang | security team | 07:13 |
| mdz | elmo has begun setting up the infrastructure side of things | 07:13 |
| sabdfl | tks elmo | 07:13 |
| mdz | we need a security team and associated procedures | 07:13 |
| mdz | the folks who have volunteered are: elmo, lamont, Kamion, fabbione, daniels | 07:14 |
| pitti | me too | 07:14 |
| sabdfl | pitti | 07:14 |
| mdz | , pitti | 07:14 |
| sivang | me also | 07:14 |
| mdz | , sivang | 07:14 |
| mdz | the original list was from Oxford | 07:14 |
| T-Bone | if i can help, assuming there are roles i can fit in ;) | 07:15 |
| Keybuk | (1,492 warty patches across 459 source packages, btw) | 07:15 |
| mdz | so of that list, who is still interested now that the time has come for hard work? :-) | 07:15 |
| pitti | well, I did not know that there were so many interested people | 07:15 |
| Kamion | mdz: ayup | 07:15 |
| fabbione | mdz: yup | 07:15 |
| pitti | Do we actually need so many sec team members? | 07:15 |
| sivang | yeppers | 07:15 |
| mdz | pitti: no, we do not | 07:15 |
| lamont | mdz: mark me down | 07:15 |
| mdz | I think we should have two people to start | 07:15 |
| T-Bone | mdz: doesn't that lower the amount of work on the global team? | 07:15 |
| pitti | I'm interested, but not if it gets too many | 07:16 |
| sabdfl | with one person leading | 07:16 |
| mdz | T-Bone: hmm? | 07:16 |
| T-Bone | mdz: having several team members | 07:16 |
| T-Bone | (sec team) | 07:16 |
| Kamion | the people who've been doing security work so far should be first on the list ... | 07:16 |
| mdz | T-Bone: I propose two | 07:16 |
| lamont | T-Bone: with security, not as much as you might think | 07:16 |
| T-Bone | lamont: ok | 07:16 |
| === T-Bone bows before lamont's words ;) | ||
| mdz | fabio has already been doing security work with me | 07:16 |
| elmo | tbh, I don't even remember volunteering, and have more than enough to do elsewhere. so feel free to take me off the list | 07:16 |
| mdz | ok | 07:17 |
| fabbione | elmo: too late for you :P | 07:17 |
| === T-Bone sees the list getting down to 'none' ;) | ||
| lamont | mdz: how close to debian practices are you planning to be? | 07:17 |
| sabdfl | what about pitti leading, with t-bone? | 07:17 |
| elmo | mdz: do you want to use the same kind of advisory format as Debian, or shall I disable that feature? | 07:17 |
| sivang | I am still interested in it, and already worked with pitti ;) | 07:18 |
| T-Bone | sabdfl: i'd rather be "backup" than anything else. ia64 is gonna take me time i guess ;) | 07:18 |
| mdz | elmo: in terms of the layout of the document, or having the list of packages and sums in it? | 07:18 |
| sabdfl | i think it would be good to have a canonical person and someone from the community who's taking a more serious interest | 07:18 |
| sabdfl | i could provide a small retainer for the volunteer | 07:18 |
| mako | sabdfl: i think that would be ideal | 07:18 |
| elmo | mdz: well, just having some sort of mail advisory where it'd be useful to have amber fill in the details that she can | 07:19 |
| pitti | sabdfl: the most important thing is the team leader, to have sb who assures that things get done | 07:19 |
| === lamont has a strong interest in being actively involved on the team, at whatever level. Unfamiliar with the internal workings of debina sec-team, though. | ||
| mdz | sabdfl: what is the status of malone for tracking warty security issues? | 07:19 |
| pitti | sabdfl: he can assign tasks to members, but then the particular structure is not so important | 07:20 |
| sabdfl | mdz: pretty good | 07:20 |
| sabdfl | not for high volume work | 07:20 |
| sabdfl | the ui is still crufty | 07:20 |
| mdz | security should be a good beta | 07:20 |
| sabdfl | but we can assign a bug to multiple source packages | 07:20 |
| mdz | or alpha | 07:20 |
| sabdfl | yes | 07:20 |
| mdz | it doesn't even need to be public initially | 07:20 |
| sabdfl | it won't | 07:20 |
| sabdfl | we haven't planned the work to have hidden bugs though, so vendor-sec should be kept out of it if it's public | 07:21 |
| mdz | once we have a stable release to point to, I am going to petition for us to be recognized by the security community and join vendor-sec | 07:21 |
| sabdfl | this week we are bringing up the email interface | 07:21 |
| sabdfl | and also the ability to watch bugzilla | 07:21 |
| lamont | would also be good to join first.org at that point | 07:21 |
| mdz | lamont: is first relevant? | 07:21 |
| lamont | it's more a community visibility thing with the irt's | 07:22 |
| lamont | hence "good to", rather than "should" | 07:22 |
| amu | wow 900$ | 07:24 |
| sabdfl | amu? | 07:25 |
| mdz | amu: hm? | 07:25 |
| fabbione | ??? | 07:25 |
| amu | first.org | 07:25 |
| amu | first's membership fee | 07:25 |
| sabdfl | ok, we'll appoint a security team | 07:25 |
| sabdfl | canonical person leading | 07:25 |
| sabdfl | potentially a community member joining too | 07:25 |
| === fabbione votes for mdz | ||
| mdz | someone who is not mdz | 07:26 |
| === sivang votes for pitti | ||
| sabdfl | will require a review of credentials and community council signoff | 07:26 |
| pitti | "credentials"? | 07:26 |
| === fabbione still votes for mdz | ||
| thom | mdz: your hat stand full? | 07:26 |
| mdz | thom: it's collapsing under the weight | 07:26 |
| sabdfl | pitti: security is very sensitive, requires someone who we trust with our own reputation | 07:26 |
| lamont | mdz: get a taller one and walk up the wall??? :-) | 07:27 |
| sabdfl | fabbione: mdz ain't eligible | 07:27 |
| pitti | sabdfl: I'm still interested, but I might not have earned this after 6 weeks :-) | 07:27 |
| sabdfl | monica says | 07:27 |
| fabbione | sabdfl: but he is the one with biggest experience in it | 07:27 |
| sabdfl | fabbione: agreed, the security team will report to mdz | 07:27 |
| sabdfl | and he's setup the framework under which they operate | 07:28 |
| sabdfl | and mentor them | 07:28 |
| pitti | mdz could lead for a few weeks, then I could take over | 07:28 |
| mdz | the key attribute for security is meticulousness | 07:28 |
| mdz | both with preparing updates, and with tracking open issues | 07:28 |
| sabdfl | we'll figure this out amongst the group of people who've expressed an interest | 07:28 |
| mdz | agreed | 07:28 |
| sabdfl | mdz: anything else on the organisation of that team and process? | 07:29 |
| mdz | yes | 07:29 |
| mdz | we need an abbreviation for ubuntu security advisories :-) | 07:29 |
| mdz | USA is a major acronym collision | 07:29 |
| fabbione | USA :P | 07:29 |
| sivang | USA ? | 07:29 |
| sivang | :) | 07:29 |
| sabdfl | usec'sy thing? | 07:29 |
| pitti | CSA? | 07:29 |
| sivang | Canonical Security Advisory ? | 07:30 |
| mdz | USN = notification? | 07:30 |
| lamont | WSA? :-) | 07:30 |
| Keybuk | USI | 07:30 |
| mdz | RH uses "errata" | 07:30 |
| lamont | Ubuntu Security Bulletin also has issues. | 07:30 |
| Keybuk | heh, USE | 07:30 |
| mdz | lamont: yep | 07:30 |
| thom | USE isn't a great abreviation either | 07:30 |
| mako | beter than USA | 07:30 |
| pitti | SAU | 07:30 |
| pitti | nice German namecalling | 07:30 |
| T-Bone | USW? | 07:30 |
| amu | pitti: ;) | 07:30 |
| sabdfl | Ubuntu Security Notice? | 07:31 |
| mako | quick, whats the zulu word for "security advisory" | 07:31 |
| sivang | ahah | 07:31 |
| T-Bone | lol | 07:31 |
| sabdfl | "spear" | 07:31 |
| sivang | good one mako | 07:31 |
| mdz | ok, well, think about it, send me ideas, and we'll decide something after the meeting | 07:31 |
| mdz | sabdfl: hah | 07:31 |
| mdz | "tiger" | 07:31 |
| pitti | there aren't many TLAs left | 07:31 |
| lamont | sabdfl: that's a security response, not advisory | 07:31 |
| mdz | pitti: even TLA itself is overloaded | 07:31 |
| sabdfl | default to "ubuntu security defect notice" maybe | 07:31 |
| thom | Ubuntu Errata ? | 07:31 |
| pitti | mdz: Three Letter Acronym | 07:31 |
| sivang | USV | 07:32 |
| mdz | anyway, I'm going to set aside a day to draft some security policies and procedures | 07:32 |
| thom | pitti: tom lords arch | 07:32 |
| mdz | what we'll fix, how, why, etc. | 07:32 |
| pitti | thom: I know :-) | 07:32 |
| sabdfl | ok, anything else before we give t-bone the floor? | 07:32 |
| T-Bone | lol | 07:32 |
| sabdfl | mdz: kiss | 07:32 |
| sabdfl | it will evolve | 07:32 |
| === thom watches T-Bone disappear under a landslide of bricks and carpet | ||
| T-Bone | hehe | 07:33 |
| T-Bone | so that's up to me? | 07:33 |
| sabdfl | t-bone, go ahead | 07:33 |
| T-Bone | i'll be pretty quick, for the sake of everyone | 07:33 |
| T-Bone | as i reported in previous mails, the IA-64 Ubuntu port was to be presented to the Gelato Council in Beijing last week | 07:34 |
| T-Bone | it has received a good welcome from the members, and interest was shown | 07:34 |
| sabdfl | with or without rc artwork? <duck> | 07:34 |
| mdz | gelato, sounds delicious | 07:34 |
| T-Bone | lol | 07:34 |
| T-Bone | www.gelato.org for those who don't know what this is about | 07:34 |
| T-Bone | several members (including people from UIUC/NCSA, HP...) have offered to help the port, | 07:35 |
| mdz | nice! | 07:35 |
| T-Bone | and Thierry Simonnet will send a report mail soon about the gelato meeting | 07:35 |
| fabbione | cool! | 07:35 |
| T-Bone | so, | 07:35 |
| mdz | what sort of help have they offered? | 07:35 |
| T-Bone | hopefully, we are close to get a bigger team than just "me" :^) | 07:36 |
| T-Bone | mdz: the big idea is that they might be interested in making Ubuntu the somewhat "Gelato recommended Linux distribution for IA64" | 07:36 |
| mdz | sounds great | 07:37 |
| T-Bone | mdz: so if you look at the Gelato members page, and at what Gelato is about (IA64 Linux use for massive calculus computing, roughly put), | 07:37 |
| T-Bone | you'll find out that it will obviously involve "make Ubuntu the best IA-64 distribution" on the TODO list ;) | 07:37 |
| T-Bone | and that should also be a good thing for Ubuntu as a whole | 07:37 |
| sabdfl | yes, i'm excited at this | 07:38 |
| T-Bone | that sounded like to good news to me, so I thought it was worth letting you guys know about it ;) | 07:38 |
| fabbione | T-Bone: really nice :-9 | 07:38 |
| thom | T-Bone: very cool, thanks for your efforts in getting us to the attention of the gelato folk | 07:39 |
| lamont | as for the port efforts, T-Bone has been spinlocked on my time | 07:39 |
| T-Bone | paticipation from the members will probably involve development taks force, material, and stuff like that, but i'll leave the details of the report to Thierry | 07:39 |
| T-Bone | lamont: yeah, got a bit swamped last week | 07:39 |
| T-Bone | so, to get back to the port status | 07:39 |
| T-Bone | I was a bit quick in my announcement of the end of the stage1 | 07:40 |
| T-Bone | actually, we a have a "stage1" ubuntu archive locally | 07:40 |
| T-Bone | a b0rken one ;) | 07:40 |
| lamont | and my list includes trying to reproduce the error locally | 07:40 |
| T-Bone | it seems that there was some trouble in the packaging of some pieces of software (involving overlapping files) | 07:40 |
| T-Bone | nothing really bad, but it introduced unexpected delays | 07:40 |
| sabdfl | we have ordered some ia64 machine. elmo what's the eta on those? | 07:41 |
| T-Bone | the next tasks are: 1) solving this packaging mess so that we can get to stage2; and 2) work on the IA64 installer | 07:41 |
| elmo | sabdfl: they're here - I plan to install them tomorrow/thursday | 07:41 |
| === sabdfl hopes lamont will be able to contain his excitement :-) | ||
| elmo | that's why I'm leaving for London as soon as this meeting's over ;-) | 07:41 |
| lamont | weeehoooo! | 07:42 |
| T-Bone | sabdfl: wow! That's great news ;^))) | 07:42 |
| sabdfl | you're both welcome | 07:42 |
| lamont | elmo: woody for now, I assume? | 07:42 |
| T-Bone | actually 1) and 2) could be done in parallel, but as i'm not yet ubiquous, i have to serialize | 07:42 |
| elmo | lamont: yep | 07:42 |
| elmo | lamont: unless you have something for me to upgrade to ? | 07:43 |
| Kamion | w00t | 07:43 |
| lamont | elmo: once I get warty/main built. not until | 07:43 |
| T-Bone | i will most likely need help of d-i gurus (Kamion?) for 2) | 07:43 |
| elmo | lamont: k | 07:43 |
| Kamion | T-Bone: happy to give you time post-warty | 07:43 |
| T-Bone | lamont: if you are ok with dpkg --force-overwrite, i have a working warty archive | 07:43 |
| T-Bone | ;) | 07:43 |
| lamont | feh | 07:43 |
| === fabbione wonders how that can happen | ||
| Kamion | T-Bone: (which also means I'll have somewhere to upload source to ...) | 07:44 |
| T-Bone | Kamion: ok | 07:44 |
| sabdfl | elmo: we got 4 boxen, right? | 07:44 |
| elmo | sabdfl: yeah, 3 buildd, one port | 07:44 |
| T-Bone | Kamion: if you need access to the ia64 boxes i have, i can easily arrange that | 07:44 |
| mdz | wow | 07:44 |
| sabdfl | 3 buildd's and a porting box | 07:44 |
| Kamion | can we commit (in upload-stuff-to-the-archive terms) to ia64 in hoary? | 07:44 |
| fabbione | gra | 07:44 |
| fabbione | geart | 07:44 |
| elmo | btw, what are we going to do about the ia64 and warty? add it to the archive? | 07:44 |
| fabbione | AMEN | 07:44 |
| mdz | don't we have only 2xbuildd for existing architectures? | 07:44 |
| fabbione | great! | 07:44 |
| thom | mdz: 3 for existing | 07:45 |
| sabdfl | elmo: no, not the official one | 07:45 |
| === T-Bone currently has 7 ia64 boxes, 3 of which are currently affected to Ubuntu | ||
| elmo | sabdfl: ok | 07:45 |
| Kamion | T-Bone: serial console / netboot access would be ideal if possible | 07:45 |
| sabdfl | mdz: 3 | 07:45 |
| mdz | ah | 07:45 |
| elmo | mdz: 3 for amd64, powerpc, 5 for i386 | 07:45 |
| lamont | mdz: i386 currently has 3, ppc 3, amd64 2 | 07:45 |
| T-Bone | Kamion: that can be easily setup, i'll arrange that with you later | 07:45 |
| Kamion | T-Bone: the sort of setup joeyh has where he can drop in a new image and reboot remotely would rock. :) | 07:45 |
| lamont | mdz: running buildd, that is. | 07:45 |
| sabdfl | we should get porting boxes for ppc and amd64 | 07:45 |
| Kamion | joeyh has an ia64 box crash-testing d-i out of cron | 07:45 |
| T-Bone | Kamion: ok, that shouldn't be an issue | 07:45 |
| elmo | sabdfl: ok, will do | 07:46 |
| === daf [daf@muse.19inch.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting | ||
| sabdfl | elmo: great, thanks | 07:46 |
| sabdfl | t-bone, anything we can do for you now? | 07:47 |
| T-Bone | any other questions about IA64? | 07:47 |
| sabdfl | i'm clear | 07:47 |
| T-Bone | sabdfl: giving me time, providing technical help, find me a job? :^) | 07:47 |
| === T-Bone ducks | ||
| sabdfl | no word back from jdub, and i think we can assume we won't hear from him till his monring | 07:47 |
| sabdfl | in that order? seems reasonable :-) | 07:47 |
| mdz | sabdfl: so should we roll a build with the current stuff? | 07:47 |
| T-Bone | sabdfl: lol | 07:47 |
| mdz | or wait? | 07:48 |
| sabdfl | mdz: no, let's get *something* of the new artwork in | 07:48 |
| T-Bone | expect report mail from Thierry by tomorrow noon CEST | 07:48 |
| mdz | sabdfl: what do we have, and where is it? | 07:48 |
| fabbione | T-Bone: where are you located? | 07:48 |
| sabdfl | in my homedir on chinstrap is a wartythemes.tgz which has human and humansimple | 07:48 |
| sabdfl | that's for the gdm theme | 07:48 |
| sabdfl | the human one will have to be renamed back to Human and Human.xml so that existing installations don't break | 07:48 |
| sabdfl | jdub was going to do this last night | 07:49 |
| sabdfl | so unfortunately we may be repeating work he's done and not published | 07:49 |
| sabdfl | also, jdub published initial ubuntu-calendar packages | 07:49 |
| sabdfl | keybuk, did you chat to him about those? | 07:49 |
| T-Bone | fabbione: i'm in Paris | 07:49 |
| Keybuk | the ones he forwarded me the other day looked ok | 07:50 |
| Keybuk | structure-wise anyway | 07:50 |
| fabbione | T-Bone: oh ok :-) | 07:50 |
| sabdfl | ok, let's get those in | 07:50 |
| sabdfl | they will definitely need a tweak for descirptions and his other changes | 07:50 |
| Keybuk | but the content was just temporary | 07:50 |
| sabdfl | mdz: it's your call whether to roll a build now | 07:50 |
| mdz | sabdfl: the calendar stuff is not going on the CD, correct? | 07:50 |
| sabdfl | mdz: no | 07:50 |
| mdz | so we basically need the gdm theme and the gnome splash | 07:51 |
| mdz | i.e., a new rev of ubuntu-artwork | 07:51 |
| Keybuk | no it's not, or no it is? | 07:51 |
| sabdfl | no it's not going on the cd | 07:51 |
| Kamion | #include <english-sucks.h> | 07:51 |
| fabbione | ok guys.. i am off for today | 07:51 |
| sabdfl | Kamion: no | 07:51 |
| Keybuk | mdz: make it ubuntu-artwork_4.10 | 07:51 |
| sabdfl | :-) | 07:51 |
| fabbione | cya tomorrow and thanks! | 07:51 |
| Kamion | :) | 07:51 |
| sabdfl | -0.1 | 07:51 |
| sabdfl | so final can be -1 | 07:52 |
| T-Bone | am i clear to go? I have a dinner outside, and i'm already late ;^) | 07:52 |
| Kamion | that's always a risky game :) | 07:52 |
| mdz | sabdfl: are we replacing the existing gdm theme + gnomesplash, or renaming them? | 07:52 |
| === lamont needs to understand what more besides ubuntu-artwork he needs to drop on the liveCD to get the non-default gnome-splash | ||
| sabdfl | mdz: the humansimple one has to become Human | 07:52 |
| sabdfl | because existing gm installations will be looking for /usr/share/gdm/themes/Human/Human.xml | 07:53 |
| mdz | what will we name the current one? | 07:53 |
| sabdfl | and we want them all to become the one that is humansimple in that | 07:53 |
| sabdfl | HumanCircle | 07:53 |
| mdz | humancomplex? | 07:53 |
| amu | lamont: /usr/share/pixmaps/splash/ | 07:53 |
| mdz | ah | 07:53 |
| sabdfl | Circle of Friends is in the description | 07:53 |
| mdz | who can take care of the ubuntu-artwork update? | 07:53 |
| Keybuk | if I've got the artwork, I can do that | 07:54 |
| mdz | Keybuk: it's on chinstrap | 07:54 |
| === T-Bone is off | ||
| lamont | hrm.. what's the image viewer in main? | 07:54 |
| sabdfl | eog | 07:54 |
| mdz | lamont: testing warty-live-i386.iso | 07:55 |
| mdz | 688,748,544 bytes | 07:55 |
| sabdfl | isn't that too big? | 07:55 |
| mdz | yes | 07:55 |
| mdz | thaht's 656M | 07:55 |
| dieman_ | iiiiinteresting. gdm sucked in their own Xsession file now | 07:55 |
| amu | lamont: gnome-splash.png is default gnome, ubuntu-splash.png it should be | 07:55 |
| dieman_ | thats what 700MB cdrs are for :) | 07:55 |
| mako | is this after ttf-baekmuk was cut? | 07:55 |
| mdz | lamont: do you have a newer one? | 07:55 |
| mdz | I think this was supposed to be +ttf-baekmuk -celestia | 07:56 |
| lamont | 20041019-03/warty-live-i386.iso should be what is on cdimage... | 07:56 |
| mako | right | 07:56 |
| dieman_ | heh, missed the board meeting, hmmm | 07:56 |
| lamont | 20041019-18 is +ttf-baekmuk -celestia | 07:56 |
| mdz | lamont: can you name the files with version numbers in them, please? | 07:56 |
| lamont | certainly | 07:56 |
| Keybuk | sabdfl: "human" becomes "HumanCircle" and "humansimple" becomes "Human", yes? | 07:56 |
| mako | koreans rejoice | 07:56 |
| sabdfl | mako, will you post the transcript somewhere for dieman_ and other? | 07:56 |
| mdz | lamont: so there is a newer build to be tested, but it isn't on cdimage yet? | 07:56 |
| sabdfl | Keybuk: yes | 07:56 |
| sabdfl | jdub had additional tweaks planned, but that was the main thing | 07:57 |
| mako | sabdfl: a summary or the full transcript? | 07:57 |
| mako | i'll do the transcript now | 07:57 |
| Keybuk | sabdfl: leaving the Name=Human (Simple) and Name=Human Circle of Friends ? | 07:57 |
| sabdfl | mako: full transcript. have you been doing summaries of tb / cc meetings? | 07:57 |
| mdz | lamont: my sound devices are still reversed | 07:58 |
| sabdfl | Keybuk: i'd prefer something better than human (Simple) but i'm out of entropy :-)( | 07:58 |
| mako | sabdfl: i have not yet done a TB summary.. i'm one meting behind on CC meetings but i'm also behind on traffic in general due to the shipping stuff taking priority | 07:58 |
| === lamont double checks | ||
| dieman_ | sabdfl: ive got scrollback like ma | 07:58 |
| dieman_ | sabdfl: mad | 07:58 |
| mdz | lamont: indeed, it seems very much the same experience as the last one | 07:58 |
| sabdfl | mako: summary of tb would be very useful but i understand shipit take precedence now | 07:59 |
| sabdfl | mdz: would you consider an rc of the live cd tomorrow, rather than a final release? | 07:59 |
| mdz | sabdfl: I'd much rather go out all at once | 07:59 |
| mdz | what's the hard deadline for shipit? | 08:00 |
| sabdfl | ok, your call | 08:00 |
| sabdfl | silbs? | 08:00 |
| mako | sabdfl: i think it will be reasonable once i can fall back into a routine.. i think all community/technical governnace meetings really need to be summarized | 08:00 |
| silbs | db frozen today. No hard deadline but every day delay past tomorrow = day delay in shipping. | 08:00 |
| sabdfl | mako: agreed | 08:00 |
| sabdfl | hold on, i think we're going to see a ton of shipit requests when the announcement goes out | 08:00 |
| mdz | I think the live CD can be there for tomorrow | 08:00 |
| mdz | sabdfl: agreed | 08:01 |
| mdz | we should let those queue up a bit | 08:01 |
| silbs | sorry - frozen in terms of first 170K orders. Will collect new orders, do second batch | 08:01 |
| sabdfl | ok | 08:01 |
| lamont | mdz: that's the latest kernel on alextreme.org | 08:01 |
| mako | plan is to wait until post announcement to finalize the second batch :) | 08:01 |
| silbs | already requests outnumber cds | 08:01 |
| mdz | ok, can we close the meeting and take the rest of this to other channels? | 08:02 |
| sabdfl | done | 08:02 |
| mdz | ok, thanks everyone | 08:02 |
| sabdfl | i'd like to say something though | 08:02 |
| sabdfl | mdz, you and your team have done a fantastic job on warty | 08:02 |
| sabdfl | far exceeded our Easter expectations | 08:02 |
| sabdfl | and set a hell of pace for every other distro | 08:02 |
| sabdfl | thank you | 08:02 |
| mako | amen | 08:02 |
| mdz | thanks | 08:02 |
| mdz | the community response has been very encouraging; I think we're doing the right things | 08:03 |
| sabdfl | Kamion, fabbione, thom, the whole team have been exceptional | 08:03 |
| sivang | amen to that , mdz the man :) | 08:03 |
| sabdfl | yes, i think this will be a shared load for hoary | 08:03 |
| sabdfl | and that has it's own coordination issues :) | 08:03 |
| sabdfl | anyhow, well done | 08:03 |
| sabdfl | looking forward to the reviews | 08:03 |
| mdz | indeed | 08:04 |
| pitti | amu: hopefully www.heise.de finally writes about it | 08:04 |
| sabdfl | cheers everyone | 08:04 |
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| === sivang thinks this distro is going to have some pretty excellent ones. | ||
| pitti | oh, another thing | 08:04 |
| amu | pitti: should be no problem ;) | 08:04 |
| pitti | will it be possible in any way to have a bunch of CDs here in GErmany before Oct 30th? | 08:04 |
| pitti | I will be at a Linux fair and like to distribute some CDs :-) | 08:05 |
| silbs | pitti: will be very close. Can't promise but we are keeping "high priority" list for immediate shipment. Send details to Mako. | 08:05 |
| silbs | pitt: must have commercial mailing address | 08:05 |
| pitti | silbs: oh, I don't have | 08:05 |
| pitti | silbs: it's not that crucial, though | 08:06 |
| amu | pitti: you'll go to Dresden ? | 08:06 |
| pitti | the thing is, if it is not possible to get them by the 30th, I don't really need them | 08:06 |
| pitti | amu: I live in Dresden :-) | 08:06 |
| pitti | http://2004.linuxinfotag.de/ | 08:06 |
| mako | pitti: coordinate with me if you want to try :) | 08:07 |
| pitti | silbs: I did not order them before because sb told me that the CDs can't be shipped before mid November | 08:07 |
| pitti | mako: okay | 08:07 |
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| pitti | mako: shall I add an extra item in shipit? | 08:07 |
| mako | pitti: if you want to order them now it's not too late | 08:07 |
| mako | pitti: 1 hour it might be :) | 08:07 |
| pitti | mako: shipit or mail? | 08:08 |
| mako | pitti: i am finalizing the db output scripts now :) | 08:08 |
| mako | pitti: shipit | 08:08 |
| mako | pitti: then too me what address you did it under, irc is fine | 08:08 |
| pitti | mako: so I just raise my 10 personal CDs to 110 :-) | 08:09 |
| mako | pitti: right :) | 08:10 |
| pitti | mako: done, martin.pitt@canonical.com | 08:10 |
| mako | pitti: sounds good | 08:10 |
| pitti | this information day is a nice opportunity to promote and distribute Ubuntu | 08:10 |
| amu | pitti: hehe, i think you'll meet peter_e there, just say a hi from me ;) | 08:11 |
| pitti | I'll be there and can show off on my laptop | 08:11 |
| pitti | amu: I know him, I was his application manager :-) | 08:11 |
| pitti | amu: and we already agreed to meet | 08:11 |
| pitti | amu: I'll forward your greetings | 08:11 |
| amu | pitti: ;) cool | 08:12 |
| Keybuk | sabdfl: do the calendar images need to be removed from this ubuntu-artwork package? | 08:12 |
| sivang | ahh...don't take the calander images down...;) | 08:13 |
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| Keybuk | sivang: is ending up in another package | 08:16 |
| sivang | Keybuk : ok.. | 08:17 |
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| sabdfl | Keybuk: erm.. YES! | 08:23 |
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| Keybuk | ok, then I got it right :p | 08:23 |
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