amulamont_r: do you plan another iso ? 12:03
amu.. just took -16 ;) 12:03
lamont_ryes.  Plan to burn one with (hopefully) new artwork for grub screen, and definitely WinFOSS 0.4, in about 6 hours.12:03
chrisaI'm currently installing ubuntu's gnome 2.8 on my sid system in an attempt to see what explodes. This should prove interesting12:04
lamont_rright now, must run.12:04
lamont_rchrisa: you're sick, you know.12:04
lamont_rgood luck12:04
amulamont_r: cu12:04
chrisawow, it worked12:13
amutry with woody ;) 12:16
chrisaI should probably pin this correctly12:17
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amuif it runs <1 Week, you win a Beer and become the master of moving bits.12:20
=== chrisa looks at the spare hardware in the office and grins
amuupgrading from sarge, that manages even my 3 year old daughter:)12:23
amu.. or sid ;)12:24
__danielamu, that's what my dog did last night :-)12:25
amuAhh, I think you know also storry with the chicken ;) 12:27
__danielamu, erm... no i dont :-)12:27
amuwhich debian installed....12:28
__danielamu, not really, but i hope there's someone who tells it to me as a good night tale :-)12:29
amuno tale, you should ask joey about it ;) 12:29
amuthere are much more interessting things, like sending tcp packages with pigeon ;)  12:31
__danielamu, hehe... yesterday they talked about the good old times in 1903 were the internet was still cool and they had to carry packages up- and downhill even in the snow - that reminded me of those pigeons :-)12:33
__danielamu, haha, found the chickens on http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=0172 :-)12:38
amulive is interesting ;)12:40
mdzNg: if you're certain that you are correct about it being a duplicate, then it is very helpful for you to mark it12:42
Ngmdz: ok, I'll make sure I check it thoroughly12:42
mdzNg: if you are unsure, then feel free to comment12:43
mdzand someone will review and confirm12:43
Ngok, cool :)12:43
Ngis there policy yet about modifying things to use gksudo/sudo? e.g. gnome-system-tools uses su, but appears to be easily modifyable to use sudo su as a quick hack. would that be frowned upon?12:44
=== jdahlin [~jdahlin@14.Red-80-39-193.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
jdubNg: our g-s-t uses gksudo12:46
mdzNg: things which use su in the Ubuntu desktop are bugs12:47
Ngjdub: the desktop entries do, but you can make it use internal routines that call su, e.g. the "Configure" button in Applications->System->Network Tool12:47
mdzNg: that bug is already reported (twice)12:47
jduboh, that's a different module12:48
jduband it is bad that it wasn't fixed12:48
jdubbut i don't think anyone realised that was in the new version12:48
Ngmdz: I know, fessing up, I didn't actually wait for your answer before marking the duplicate ;)12:48
Ngand I'm part way to a patch for it12:48
mdzif it's a simple and safe fix, that'd be a good candidate for warty-updates12:49
jdubmdz: would we consider it 'high-impact', 'dataloss' or 'security'?12:50
Ngit is looking like it'll be pretty simple, I'm just tying what is mostly a one liner into autoconf. the only snag I have hit is that there is a string that says "root password" that could use rewording and thus translation :/12:50
jdubit uses it's own su foo?12:50
mdzjdub: given that two people have run into it already, apparently it's functionality in the desktop that people use, it's broken, and there's a trivial fix12:51
Ngjdub: it spawns a pty, runs su and the module with it, feeding it the pw12:51
mdzok, maybe not so trivial :-)12:51
Ngsrc/common/gst-auth.c (last function)12:51
jdubi *hate* that12:51
=== jdub is reminded to add permissions elevation to HH
Ngit seems to work just making the su_args array one larger by putting sudo as arg[0]  :)12:52
gmaI'm curious about the development model. Do all developers work for canonical, or are you globally distributed?12:52
jdubgma: all the developers on warty work for canonical, *and* are globally distributed :-)12:52
NgI'm currently arguing with dpkg-buildpackage though ;)12:52
jdubgma: but now there are heaps of community members helping out12:52
jdubNg: hrm, might want to check if they copied code from gnome-system-monitor12:52
gmaare canonical open to applications?12:52
jdubNg: daniels fixed that12:52
Ngjdub: ooh, cool12:53
=== jdahlin [~jdahlin@14.Red-80-39-193.pooles.rima-tde.net] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"]
mdzjdub: HH?12:53
jdubmdz: hoary page12:56
mdzjdub: what about permissions elevation?12:56
jdubattempting to standardise on something12:56
Ngjdub: it looks similar, but not close enough to just yoink the code over :(12:59
NgI'd say they have a common origin, but the g-s-t one is split up more so it can do ssh auth too12:59
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doogiebtopenworld?  does that mean they use opensource?  :)01:19
Ngprobably not ;)01:20
jdubmorning elmo_ 01:20
NgBT like things that are slow and bad and expensive ;)01:20
elmo_hey jdub01:21
Ngthe gnome-system-tools configure script is telling me I need intltool 0.29 or later, but I just installed ubuntu's, which is 0.31 or something. any ideas?01:22
Ngif I can just make the thing compile I think my patch is done and trivial enough to be safe01:22
Ngaha, the source package was missing a file or I didn't run enough auto* stuff01:24
__danielNg, what version of g-s-t did you try to ./configure ?01:25
Ng__daniel: 1.0.0-0ubuntu701:26
NgI just apt-get source'd it, changed configure.in and a .c file and dpkg-buildpackage'd it01:27
__danielNg, that's strange: "apt-get source gnome-system-tools; cd gnome-system*; ./configure" ran fine at my place01:27
NgI did change a string in a glade file too, so that and/or the configure.in change probably needed auto* to run more things01:27
NgI had to copy intltool-update.in from intltool's install directory to the "backends" directory in g-s-t01:28
Ngit could easily be my mistake though, it's probably a couple of years since I last did any of this ;)01:28
__danieli don't get why they don't have a proper  autogen.sh 01:29
Ng*shrug* :)01:32
=== Ng sticks his patch in bugzilla, hopefully the first of many :)
Ngg-s-t isn't going to work doing remote module without further patching though01:34
Ngwell, if the target machine is ubuntu at least01:35
Ngsince it ssh's as root :/01:35
__danielNg, ssh-as-root should never really be an option in a program01:37
Ngwell it isn't a great idea to spawn a pty and use it to run su to get root, but they do ;)01:37
jdubtotally have to figure otu sound on this machine01:42
sabdfllamont: live cd -16 seems to have solved the "see-through desktop" issue on the tosh01:46
mjg59Oh, wow01:59
mjg59lamont's been flamed on Advogato01:59
kylemit's a valid point.02:01
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jdubso what are some of our "all the drivers work but there's no audio output" solutions?02:06
jdubparallel port is disabled in bios, and modules are not loaded02:06
jdubaudio definitely worked with early ubuntu kernels02:06
mjg59Is the hardware unmuted?02:12
jdubdone by ubuntu by default02:13
mjg59On all channels?02:15
mjg59Is there a hardware mixer?02:16
mjg59If you try to play something, does the interrupt number in /proc/interrupts increase?02:20
mjg59Any messages in dmesg?02:22
jdub130 -> 248 that time ;)02:23
mjg59Sounds like it's either a mixer issue or you've managed to get two sound drivers loaded...02:23
jdubthere's only the first device's stuff under /dev/snd02:24
mjg59And lsmod only shows one snd-something driver loaded?02:24
jdubone module in /proc/asound/modules02:24
jdubno, there's heaps02:25
jdubbut actual drivers could include snd_bt87x02:25
jdubremoved, still the same02:26
mjg59Uh. bt87x sounds a touch worrying.02:26
jdub(this machine has a dvb card in it)02:26
NgI've had problems with hotplug loading snd_bt87x before snd_emu10k1 and breaking sound02:26
mjg59I'd worry that that might have presented a mixer device, and then the wrong stuff may have been loaded02:26
lupus_what idem Ng02:26
lupus_I mean :)02:27
jdubi'll try loading snd_intel8x0 in /etc/modules02:27
mjg59If you remove and then reinsert the correct module and then check the mixer, what does it look like?02:27
mjg59Ok, that works too :)02:27
Nglupus_: eh? ;)02:27
=== jdub did not realise that distrowatch was seen as a big deal
lupus_ng I mean bttv also broke my sound because it is loaded before the soundcard02:28
Ngah :)02:28
NgI only had that with debian, for some reason ubuntu gets it right02:28
NgI thought it was dependant on PCI ordering because it's hotplug doing it and it works in bus order02:29
lupus_A friend of my was complaining the other day that he couldn't switch between his 2 soundcards for sound02:29
lupus_a tool that could do this would also fix this issue :)02:29
lupus_and should be possible on the fly without rebooting :)02:30
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__danielgood night guys02:42
lupus_are there plans to let hald use fstab-sync to add all the partitions in /etc/fstab  (vfat,ntfs etc) ?02:44
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mdzmjg59: lamont's been flamed on Advogato?03:22
vorlonfor a documentation-impaired changelog entry.03:34
vorlon... by Mathieu Roy.03:34
doogie... and the middle-of-the-road "testing" release seems to offer the worst of both "stable" and "unstable."03:35
doogie(from lwn)03:35
doogiere: ubuntu and debian03:35
vorlonthat's a curious characterization.  I wonder what they think the best parts of unstable are that testing doesn't have -- the RC-buggy packages that will never make it in? ;)03:42
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chrisaBoth hotplug and discover shouldn't need run at the same time, right?04:23
mdzchrisa: indeed, they _must not_ both run04:25
chrisamdz: So which is preferred for a laptop type system?04:25
mdzchrisa: hotplug is preferred in all cases, and is the Ubuntu default04:25
jdubmorning tseng04:29
jdubKeybuk: so if we have out of control evolution processes guzzling RAM like nobody's business, what's the most useful tool i can ask a user to run to get some idea of where the problem lies?04:30
lamontmjg59: url for the flamage?04:36
jameshlamont: http://www.advogato.org/person/yeupou/diary.html?start=6304:47
lamontjamesh: you mean people actually read changelogs.?04:49
=== tseng does.
vorlonlamont: it's all mdz's fault for that fancy apt-listchanges hoowah.04:50
tsengbut im hardly offended by someone refering to a bug #, as a gentoo dev we did that all the time04:50
lamontthat one was basically one of me going, "well, that one's definitely fixed by now."  And there are probably others04:51
tsengmake a keybinding that pipes xclip -out, containing the bug number to the end of a bugzilla search query, and send it to the brower04:51
tseng"5 minutes" becomes a fraction of a second04:51
jameshmaybe he expected you to paste the bind release notes into the changelog.04:51
lamontbetter yet, I built it with the wrong email address....04:52
tsengreading on, this guy is a complete tool04:52
tsengid ignore it04:53
danielsisn't yeupou mathie roy?04:53
danielsmathieu, even04:53
danielsinteresting.  only 2 peers on BT for i386, and I haven't served a single powerpc or amd64 torrent; contrast with pushing 1.5MB/s (bytes, not bits) for the preview04:57
vorloneverybody who downloaded the preview died of shock when they found out how good it was? :P04:57
jduball the upgraders ;)05:02
daniels<Culus> my goal is to have people see the download progress meter and05:08
daniels        kill themselves because they know they will never see05:08
danielssomething more eleet than that05:08
danielsi think that's a pretty good model to be aiming for05:08
mdzthe download progress meter is pretty 3133705:08
jdubin bittorrent?05:10
danielsjdub: in apt05:11
danielsjdub: (culus being the apt maintainer or something, as well as an admin; in true debian style, he is, of course, almost entirely invisible)05:12
jduboh, the experimental versions of apt?05:12
danielsdunno, don't think there's really been a new major apt for quite some time05:12
mdzjdub: apt's current download progress meter05:12
=== jdub furrows brow, makes dubious glancing looks around the room.
mdzjdub: dude, it's rad05:14
danielsit's ill05:15
danielshow about 'Ill Network Management' as a Hoary goal?05:15
danielsor 'Ill Link Beat Detection To Make Your Computer Start Up Like Twenty Minutes Quicker When You're Not Plugged In To A Network'05:16
jdubwe'd start saying things like 'network beat box' and confusing the crap out of everyone05:16
kylemhow about 'Ill 802.1X and WPA Integration'05:16
danielsnetwork beat box! i love it!05:16
danielscan we please have that?05:16
jdubfight the power man, all those wireless security protocols are crackrock05:17
tsengyay for ssh05:17
kylemit's not about security, it's about authentication. :)05:17
jdubyeah, and i want to know who you are before i give you any cookies05:18
danielsjdnot *those* cookies.05:19
danielsoh man. bong.05:19
danielsdaniels@catsby:~/video% ping
danielsPING ( 56(84) bytes of data.05:19
danielsFrom icmp_seq=1 Packet filtered05:19
danielsFrom icmp_seq=2 Packet filtered05:19
danielsmaybe ifplugd wasn't quite as phat as I'd hoped.05:19
bob2apt should use GL to produce a rendered pie graph for completion05:19
danielsbob2: and it should use COMPOSITE05:20
danielsor something.05:20
=== daniels decides to research stuff like ifplugd.
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tsengNetworkManager will be cool in about 2 years05:22
danielsi just want /etc/init.d/networking to say 'hey! no cable! ill!' and go along its merry way and not bother me.05:23
jdubtseng: two years? no way, it's getting lots of attention05:23
tsengdaniels: iirc redhat does that with mii-tool05:24
tsengchecking for cable.05:24
lamontdaniels: that would be rad05:25
jdubdaniels: (what about localhost?)05:26
danielsjdub: hm?05:27
danielsjdub: well, just not spend an hour trying to bring up DHCP and NTP05:28
tsengctrl plus c, works for me05:28
tsengbut doing it right would be cool.05:28
danielsyeah, but I usually restart after X crashes, which means I go off to get another glass of water/cup of tea05:28
lamontdaniels: I imagine there's no binary driver bits for ATI rage mobility, true?05:30
danielsnot at all05:31
danielswere you after a specific feature, or just wondering?05:31
bob2can't we just let ifplugd do the whole thing?05:33
lamonttrying to figure out how to maximize my radeon 7500 on the desktop as well.05:33
bob2or does it not notice when something is already plugged in?05:33
lamontguess I should read the howto.05:33
fabbionemorning guys05:33
jdubNM > ifplugd (and friends)05:33
chrisahrm, is there a sane way to completely upgrade a sid system to ubuntu?05:34
bob2you can use pinning.05:36
lamontchrisa: apt doesn't consider it a true upgrade05:36
bob2but it's kinda dodgy.05:36
justdaveback up the important stuff, wipe it out, and install from a CD?  sid has newer versions than a lot of what's in Ubuntu.  It'll be messy.05:36
lamontsince some packages are newer (higher version) in sid than in warty, and vice versa05:36
chrisalamont: Right, I've noticed (due to various epochs and version numbers)05:36
justdaveif you want to go that route, it might be safer to wait until Hoary opens for development, and update from the development repository.05:37
justdave(it'll be a more-recent snapshot of sid, and not frozen yet)05:37
lamontchrisa: sadly, it's completey unsupportable.  woody->warty, no problem.  sarge/sid from before 2004-06-28, should be no problem.  sarge/sid from after that, install, or go the masochistic route first, and eventually probably do the install anyway05:38
lamontor wait for hoary to open05:38
chrisalamont: I realize that, I'm just experimenting on a sid box I'm not concerned with for fun really05:38
kylemheh, force downgrade to <2004-06-28 via snapshot.d.n, and upgrade? ;=)05:39
chrisaI wouldn't do this on a serious system05:39
lamontah, well, there is on sane way to cross grade from current sid to warty.05:39
chrisakylem: You're nuts!05:39
kylemthank you.05:39
=== lamont ^5s kylem
lamonthrm.. still have about 600MB of free space in my dvd tree.  what to add....05:40
chrisalamont: what is this supposed sane way?05:40
chrisaI think this box needs ruining, I'll try kyle's method05:41
=== lamont hands chrisa some rubber gloves
=== chrisa chuckles as he watches this take place
fabbionelamont: any more testing for the live?05:46
lamontfabbione: waiting for artwork from jeff05:49
lamontplanned changes from rc to rc2 are: (1) grub screen, (2) new WinFOSS.05:49
=== tseng yawns
lamontfabbione: if you grab -16 and want to play with a firmware-needing card to see if that works, that'd be way cool05:50
vorlondaniels: hum, ifplugd always seems to work for me.  ... "Packet filtered"?05:52
elmo_lamont: have you got a firmware for these aironet pcmcia cards you're fond of?  the cisco website wants some username/password and doesn't accept the one it gave me05:53
fabbionelamont: i don't have any firmware based card.. sorry05:53
fabbioneelmo_: already up?05:54
fabbioneor you didn't go to sleep yet?05:54
lamontelmo_: not sure - I can poke someone tomorrow to see what version they have05:55
jdublamont: do you have the grub.conf for the livecd?05:56
lamontjdub: I expect so.. let me go look05:56
jdublamont: or know if it grub itself is modified in any way?05:56
=== vorlon was actually wondering why Warty didn't use ifplugd, and I guess breaking things would be a good reason. ;)
jdublamont: oh05:58
jdublamont: hold on, it's using gfxboot fork05:58
elmo_fabbione: not slept yet05:58
elmo_lamont: cool thanks05:58
lamontjdub: yes - gfxboot-grub05:58
lamontelmo_: what version firmware do you have?05:59
lamontand 350, I assume?05:59
elmo_Firmware Version: 5.02.1905:59
lamontjdub: I have the complete gfxboot-grub tree that built the package, if that helps...05:59
elmo_yeah, 36005:59
elmo_err 35005:59
danielsvorlon: yeah, it bonged up my interface06:01
lamontjdub: http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/LiveCD/morphix/source/morphix-iso-grubtheme_0.1-3ubuntu4.dsc06:01
lamontand tar.gz06:01
lamontjdub: work for you if I go to bed at this point, and plan to build in about 8 hours?06:02
lamontjdub: anything else you need before I crash?06:03
jdubnup, should be ok :)06:04
lamontthanks.  artwork hacking isn't my forte and all that...06:07
jdubhrm, do you stil lhave a copy of the current pcx?06:07
=== lamont decides to start his warty-release DVD burn before he sleeps
lamontthe current pcx is in that source package06:07
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lamont(that _is_ the source package that built the current world...)06:07
jdubrock, ta06:07
lamontor did you mean the morphix thing?06:08
jdubha, the morphix one06:08
fabbionehey KeyserSoze !06:08
KeyserSozehey man06:08
fabbioneKeyserSoze has a problem on ubuntu on amd6406:08
fabbioneperhaps someone here can help him?06:08
KeyserSozeyeah please06:08
KeyserSozetrying to get an oracle install going06:09
jdubthere's your problem06:09
lamontjdub: if you do wnat the morphix one, it's scp-able from chinstrap:~lamont/morphix.pcx06:09
KeyserSozebut we get this error from the jre:06:09
KeyserSozecurrent locale is not supported in X11, locale is set to CX locale modifiers are not supported, using defaultException in thread "main" java.lang.InternalError: Current locale is not supported06:09
fabbionewe already checked the locale06:09
KeyserSozeand no matter what I try it still thinks its on locale CX06:09
fabbioneand it is set properlyu06:09
fabbionecan it be an amd64 glitch?06:09
mdzwhat is the locale set to?06:10
mdzlet's take this to #ubuntu, it's not development-related06:10
fabbionemdz: i told him to join here06:10
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mdzfabbione: why?06:11
KeyserSozeok I'll go to ubuntu I don't care06:11
lamontjdub: you're done with artwork for me already>06:24
jdubi hope so06:24
jdubmight look like poo06:24
jdubaren't you in bed yet? :)06:24
lamontfeh. Now I have to stay up for a while06:24
lamontshould I care that you sent it twice?06:25
jdubthat'd be evo06:25
jdubstupid thing06:25
lamonthrm... actually, -4 was my screwing around, I think,.06:27
lamont-3ubuntu3 was really what we're using06:27
lamontanyway, building -3ubuntu5 now06:27
=== lamont will test the home edition first, in about an hour or so.
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=== lamont passes the time by burning his 3.7GB warty install dvd
jdubheh, nice07:16
lamontall of main, and a little bit of universe.  binary and source07:19
lamontbasically, my full mirror + the udebs07:19
lamontmust kill d-i for not dealing well with having Packages.gz instead of Packages....07:19
lamontthis'll be interesting... burning a dvd+rw and a cd-rw at the same time...  cdrw drive is slave on the bus with the DVD...07:20
lamontburning home edition07:21
jdubhave we disabled uploads yet?07:21
lamontpretty sure07:22
jdubshould probably do it soon07:22
lamontwas talk of allowing uploads to fix previously-ftbfs packages in universe/multiverse, and I need to upload a new mplayer to multiverse once I'm done with livecd..07:22
lamontright now, it works for anyone with a Xeon, and no one else.:-(07:22
lamontI gave it about 2 minutes today, but that attempt was FTBFS07:23
lamontbasically, it built customized for the buildd hardware, instead of runtime cpu detection07:23
lamontdvd write went from 2.4x to 0.6x :-(07:23
lamontotoh, pio-based cdrw write is chunking along quite happily07:24
=== lamont discovered macadamia toffee this week
lamontcdrw fixating07:28
lamontdvd getting squat07:28
lamontjdub: did you touchup the logo at all on the grub screen?07:30
lamontbtw, timer working perfectly.07:30
lamontnot as cute, but definitely working. :)07:30
jdublamont: kinda07:31
jdublamont: not as cute as...? how can i make it better?07:31
lamontjdub: I had officially declared the double bar thing to be "cute".07:32
jdubso now it's just white bars on a brown background?07:32
jdubthaytan put release dates on the generated release names :)07:34
lamontwhite _bar_ (full width), instead of 2 partially white bars at 1/3 width07:34
lamontjdub: too much time, I tell ya07:34
lamontjdub: you have enough bandwidth to test that image?07:34
jdubno :|07:34
lamontI'm going to bed, mind you.07:35
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:lamont] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Warty Day! | 13 (count 'em) major bugs | BE THE SIGNAL | Warty release is DONE | please test http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041021-06/warty-live-i386-20041021-06.iso so it can be warty-rc2-live-i386.iso
jdubokay, will chat to you about making it sexier in the morning07:36
jdubooh - could i get a photo? :)07:36
lamontcamera is in the car.07:36
lamontmust I ?07:36
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KeyserSozecan anyone confirm for me that they can run a java app under ubuntu on amd64 using either blackdown or sun jre please?07:37
=== lamont goes to the car
jdublamont: nah, don't worry07:38
lamontew. bad burn07:39
lamonthave camera, rebooting now07:39
Mitariowohoo, all trashapplet boogs are fixed07:40
lamontand the arrows are even where they belong. :-)07:42
jdubok, so, gotta do something with the top left07:43
lamont"resistance is futile"07:45
lamontanyway, send me more artwork.  night.07:45
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Mitariohmm, it's getting light already :) time to go to bed08:17
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pittimdz_: still here?09:31
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=== fabbione kicks X straight in the balls
fabbionehey thom09:46
fabbionethom: how was the party yesterday?09:46
thomit was cool09:46
thomgood bunch turned up09:46
pittiHi thom09:49
pittihi fabbione09:50
fabbionehey pitti09:51
pittifabbione: been at a release party as well? In some LUG?09:51
pittiGosh, this thing gets longer and longer09:51
fabbionepitti: no.. at home sandpapering walls and taking away 20 huge plastic bags of trash from the works09:52
pittiI mean the channel subject :-)09:52
pittifabbione: oh, sounds like exactly the right thing to do after an exhausting release day :-)09:52
fabbionepitti: of course 09:52
pittithom: since elmo is not yet here, do you happen to know how and whether the security upload queues work?09:52
thomfraid not dude09:53
pittiI just saw that DSA 570-1 and 571-1 are unapplied in Warty09:53
fabbionepitti: elmo was working on it09:53
fabbionepitti: i have the packages read for these 2 already09:53
fabbionepitti: so don't worry09:53
pittifabbione: oh fine, I already wanted to prepare some :-)09:53
fabbionepitti: mdz and I coordinated a while ago09:54
fabbionebefore the sec team election09:54
pittiokay, fine09:54
pittithen I can throttle my nerves again09:54
pittiand let my head continue to ache :-/09:54
fabbionei need to go back to X.org09:54
=== pitti does not like to get up at 6 o'clock
pittifabbione: oh, speaking of headaches... :-)09:54
pittisometimes I already thought that rewriting X from scratch might be faster :-)09:55
pittiwriting some nice drivers to speed up the framebuffer and basically use this :-) </dream>09:55
pittifabbione: anyway, I cross my fingers that you and daniel tame the beast09:56
fabbionepitti: the problem is not the beast itself09:59
fabbioneit's splitting the beast09:59
fabbioneand forward-porting the patches we have09:59
fabbioneto get it to build09:59
pittifabbione: I'm curious. Didn't the fd.o version already split components?09:59
fabbionenext step is manage to put everything into nice little tiny debian pacakges09:59
pittior was that X.org?09:59
fabbionepitti: no09:59
fabbionethat's only daniels 09:59
fabbioneX.org is still monolitich10:00
pittiI thought there wer already efforts in this direction10:00
fabbioneand i am going to CRACK IT10:00
=== pitti gives fabbione a huge hammer
fabbione'C0Z I 4M 4 L33T H4CK3510:00
pittiso "crack of the day" has a completely different meaning to you :-)10:00
jameshfabbione: would an X display problem that disappears when I boot with acpi=no likely be an X problem, or a hardware problem?10:03
jamesh(this is on an athlon64)10:04
fabbionejamesh: yes.. everything can be when it goes to amd64 and X10:05
fabbioneand it can be easily an X problem10:05
fabbioneXfree86 didn't get much love on amd64 as X.org did10:05
jameshfabbione: okay.  With ACPI enabled, it displays random garbage, except for the mouse cursor10:06
jameshwith acpi=no, it works perfectly.10:06
fabbionejamesh: ok. please open a bug with all the info10:07
fabbionesuch as videocard and so on10:07
fabbioneexact models of the laptop, logfiles with both working and nonworking X10:07
fabbionejamesh: make it a normal severity10:08
fabbionethere is really nothing i can do to make it working at the moment10:08
fabbionewe will have to see with X.org10:08
jameshis there an easy way to get the log file from a previous run of the X server?10:08
fabbionejamesh: try checking /var/log10:09
jameshI had to restart the machine when X screwed up10:09
fabbioneafaik there is a backup of the log10:09
fabbionewell please send both10:09
fabbionei need them to check10:09
jameshyes there is.10:10
jameshfabbione: interesting.  the .old log file says it finds an AGP card, while the current one says it found a PCI card ...10:12
jameshI'll restart to make sure I've got the right logs though.10:12
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pittisjoerd: here?10:25
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thompitti: so that firefox javascript crasher? is apparently much harder to trigger if your LOCALE is en_US *sigh*10:29
pittithom: what, is it still in 0.9.3? Never occurred for me any more since we downgraded10:30
pittiHi seb12810:30
thomno, not in 0.9.310:30
pittithom: or do you prepare packages for 1.0?10:30
thomjust explaining why mdz/lamont couldn't trigger it10:30
thom(this is from upstream)10:31
pittithom: ah, nice idea10:31
pittithom: I use de_DE.UTF-810:31
seb128hello pitti 10:31
thomand i'm on en_GB10:31
pittithey don't like non-Americans :-)10:31
pittijdub: can we still add feature goals for Hoary to the Wiki?10:33
pittijdub: we sort them out later anyway, but I'd like to drop some ideas there10:33
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thomhey sledge. get back ok last night?10:57
Sledgenot too bad10:57
Sledgeonly got to 2.20am... :-/10:57
Sledgeso I'm feeling really bright and with it this morning10:58
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sivangmorning all11:07
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sabdflmorning all11:42
dynmorning :)11:42
seb128hello sabdfl 11:42
tuo2god morgan, sabdfl 11:43
fabbionehey sabdfl 11:43
sabdflfabbione! 11:43
fabbionesabdfl: how was the party?11:44
fabbionesabdfl: i have a good news and a bad news.. which one first?11:44
sabdflgood news today!11:44
fabbionesabdfl: the work on X.org is progressing pretty good11:45
=== sabdfl normally prefers the beef before the ice cream
sabdflwhen's daniels due in cph?11:45
fabbionethe bad news is that is much more than what I expected.11:45
fabbionesabdfl: 1st nov.11:45
fabbionemanly because they reorganized a good portion of the tree11:45
sabdfldo we have x.org in arch yet?11:46
fabbionethat makes some stuff more complex11:46
fabbionesabdfl: nope11:46
fabbionewe need xfree86 and x.org in arch11:46
fabbionefor the patch forwarding11:46
fabbionethat's what is actually taking more time than expected11:46
lupus_not debrix? :)11:50
sjoerdpitti: pong11:52
pittisjoerd: back from class?11:52
pittisjoerd: bad news! modifying g-v-m as I thought yesterday does not work11:53
pittisjoerd: gnome exports an interface for unmounting a device, but not for mounting it11:53
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sjoerdpitti: just arrived at the uni..11:53
pittisjoerd: it has a function for listing all connected drives, but new USB devices don't appear there11:54
pittisjoerd: this might get better if g-vfs is compiled with hal support, but until then g-v-m has to call mount on its own11:54
sjoerdpitti: we'll see11:55
sjoerdpitti: donno if gvfs with the new hal patches shows all volumes or only the ones in fstab11:55
pittisjoerd: BTW, I'm currently ubuntu-fying your hal package; you still conflict to g-v-m << 0.9.10, but it should be << 1.0.211:56
pittisjoerd: will you change that for Debian11:56
pittisjoerd: the older g-v-m expected a different storage semantics, which don't work with the newer hal11:56
sjoerdpitti: for debian 0.9.10 is good enough.. that's why it's still that way11:56
pittisjoerd: oh, okay11:56
sjoerdpitti: debian's 0.9.10 was a cvs, that's why it worked11:57
pittisjoerd: you cheated :-)11:57
pittisjoerd: no, just kidding11:57
sjoerdpitti: i'll probably do << 1.0.2 for the new packages then.. people should be using that anyway11:58
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kOoLiNuShi to everyone!12:59
__danielhi kOoLiNuS12:59
pittiHi kOoLiNuS12:59
kOoLiNuSone quick question, can I ?01:00
pittiyou can do everything, kOoLiNuS :-)01:00
thomif you have a question please just ask it01:01
pittithom: btw, you hacked on hal a bit, right?01:02
thoma bit01:02
pittithom: does "libselinux-dev build dependency" ring any bell?01:02
kOoLiNuSi've tried the very first relase of Warty01:02
pittithom: I don't know what it was good for and hal builds fine without01:02
kOoLiNuSand i was disappointed by the "crippled" Gnome-System-Tools01:02
pittithom: the Debian package does not have it either01:02
thompitti: the reason for the build-dep was to work around a bug in the selinux packages at the time, iirc01:02
pittikOoLiNuS: what's missing?01:02
mjg59kOoLiNuS: That's an upstream decision01:03
mjg59The tools that aren't supplied are no longer supported01:03
pittithom: what has hal to do with these packages?01:03
thompitti: (they shipped the .so in the main package, so configure would pick it up and enable selinux support, which would then blow up cos of the lack of headers)01:03
kOoLiNuSI'm still in the devel ml, so I was wondering if I can "force" the installation of the "complete" package from the testing repos01:04
pittithom: darn01:04
mjg59kOoLiNuS: If you download the source, you can (I /think/) change the configure options in debian/rules and the rebuild the package01:04
mjg59That's assuming that you can still force the build of the unsupported tools - I'm not sure about that01:04
kOoLiNuSmjg59: too far difficoult for me :-/01:05
pittithom: my hald is not linked against libselinux, so I guess I can safely drop the dependency01:05
thompitti: yeah01:07
fabbioneelmo_: are you already awake?01:07
pittidaniels: here?01:08
seb128kOoLiNuS: apt-get source gnome-system-tools && apt-get build-dep gnome-system-tools && cd gnome-system-tools-1.0.0, add --enable-boot --enable-services --enable-disks in configure options debian/rules and then dpkg-buildpackage to build the package ...01:08
=== __daniel [~daniel@td9091b81.pool.terralink.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel
kOoLiNuSseb128: ok, note taken :-D thanks01:09
seb128kOoLiNuS: but these modules are not supported and bugged so probably not a good idea01:09
kOoLiNuSon SID the've worked01:09
seb128they have been removed01:10
seb128there is a reason :)01:10
seb128what are you trying to do ?01:10
kOoLiNuSseb128: yeah ? didn't know01:10
kOoLiNuSmodify the services started at boot time graphically01:10
seb128kOoLiNuS: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=27185901:11
kOoLiNuSif I install (L)AMP for toying around with my blog I do not want them to start everytime, I am on a Laptop01:11
elmo_fabbione: yeah01:12
__danielkOoLiNuS, i only have a non-graphic variant for you:    cd /etc/init.d; update-rc.d <name-of-service> remove     but listen to suggestions of the others, too :-)01:14
kOoLiNuSseb128: perfect .... some fedora testing friend of mine did tell me something (not accurate as your link) on this 01:14
kOoLiNuS__daniel: if I had the competence to do that I would not miss it :-D01:14
=== kOoLiNuS is going to have lunch
=== kOoLiNuS is now known as kOoL-eating
fabbioneelmo_: will you ping me when ready for the upload? or do you want me to ping you?01:19
=== pitti enjoys his shiny new hal_0.4.0-1ubuntu1
carlosis hoary repository open already?01:23
carloscould I move to it?01:23
elmo_fabbione: oh, right, meh, working on it - I'll ping you in a bit01:23
thomno and no01:23
elmo_carlos: no, no01:24
elmo_thom: copycat01:24
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fabbioneelmo_: ok :-)01:27
jameshhow's this look? http://www.gnome.org/~jamesh/images/drive-mount-applet.png01:33
pittijamesh: nice!01:34
pittijamesh: you finally made an applet?01:34
jameshpitti: yeah.  It was a bit fiddly to get the sizing right.01:35
jameshbut it works pretty well now.01:35
pittijamesh: any upload plans already?01:37
jameshI still need to do a bit more testing01:37
pittijamesh: okay, nice. Will you upload this to experimental/sid as well?01:38
jameshpitti: I'm planning on getting it merged into gnome-applets (since it is meant to replace one of the existing applets).  I haven't considered packaging it separately01:39
pittijamesh: oh right, even better01:39
fabbionedaniels: you around?01:50
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carlosso, finally we are not going to have our final release in the main page of slashdot?02:01
thomcarlos: no02:07
thom*shrug*, they have given us like 4 stories in the last month02:08
sabdflcarlos: no, they said the main page had had enough ubuntu coverage02:09
carlosso a final release cannot be there but a Xandros betatesting process can02:09
chrisaWhy isn't trashapplet in gnome-applets?02:14
sabdflchrisa: we picked it up before it had yet gone mainstream02:17
sabdflbut expect it to become part of the main gnome release02:17
seb128it's already in gnome-applets cvs head02:18
fabbioneguys is very familiar with libraries that can help me 2 minutes?02:21
amuKamion: btw. lolo synced it :) 02:25
Kamionamu: cool02:25
__danieljust wrote a mail to heise.de to make them cover the ubuntu release :-)02:26
fabbionewell.. i meant who is very familiar...02:28
seb128fabbione: you should just ask ...02:28
seb128usually the "who is very .. with ..." kind of questions don't get a lot of replies02:28
fabbioneseb128: well i need to understand how to split a lib in general02:30
fabbione`-- lib02:31
fabbione    |-- libFS.a02:31
fabbione    |-- libFS.so -> libFS.so.6.002:31
fabbione    |-- libFS.so.6 -> libFS.so.6.002:31
fabbione    `-- libFS.so.6.002:31
fabbionelibFS.a -> libfs-dev02:31
fabbionelibFS.so.6.0 -> libfs6 ?02:31
fabbioneand the other 2?02:31
Kamionyes; libFS.so -> libfs-dev, libFS.so.6 -> libfs602:31
fabbioneok thanks!02:32
fabbionethat makes it simple02:32
fabbionei already have enough headackes splitting X to dig into each single piece02:32
=== fabbione does really appreciate
seb128.a / .la / .so -> -dev02:34
seb128.so.x and .so.x.y.z -> lib02:34
fabbionethanks seb :-)02:35
seb128you're welcome :)02:36
fabbionenow the big question is.. which directory should i start polluting if i kill /usr/include/X11 and /usr/X11R6 ?02:40
pittifabbione: you kill /usr/X11R6?02:41
=== pitti praises fabbione
pittifabbione: why not just put the stuff in /usr/lib/X11 and the executables in /usr/bin?02:42
pittifabbione: IMHO /usr/bin can't be made worse, pollute-wise02:42
KamionI thought that was roughly the plan02:42
fabbionepitti: i need somewhere where to store the includes02:43
fabbioneand nothing is allowed to stick <whatever>/X1102:43
pittifabbione: but why do you want to kill /usr/include/X11?02:43
pittifabbione: it seems fairly "canonical" to me :-)02:43
fabbionepitti: it's a synlink to ../X11R6/inlucde02:43
fabbionepitti: see also policy02:43
Kamionyou can't kill /usr/include/X11 as such; people do #include <X11/foo.h>02:44
pittifabbione: right, I mean why not put the includes in /usr/include/X11 directly?02:44
=== lamont takes kids to school. bbiab
fabbioneKamion: i know that02:44
Kamionbut you're going to run into dpkg hell trying to replace a directory with a symlink02:44
fabbioneKamion: i need an alternate location02:44
Kamioner, vice versa02:44
fabbioneKamion: it is already a symnlink02:44
Kamion13:44 < Kamion> er, vice versa02:44
fabbionePackages must not provide or install files into the directories /usr/bin/X11/, /usr/include/X11/ or /usr/lib/X11/.02:45
Kamionyes, I know02:45
KamionI was involved in that policy discussion :P02:45
fabbioneand i don't want to go against policy02:45
fabbionebut neither i can pollute *02:45
Kamionthat bit of policy was taken in order to smooth the path for a future move of XFree86 to /usr02:46
fabbioneKamion: correct02:46
KamionI do not think that you should regard it as constraining X.org packages02:46
fabbionebut now that i am moving X to /usr02:46
fabbioneXfree86 or X.org.. still the same stuff02:46
fabbioneit's an Xserver02:46
Kamionthe other alternative is /usr/X.org and keep the symlinks, would be simpler, but you don't get to lose the old hack02:46
fabbioneor X Windows System02:47
KamionI *know* :)02:47
Kamionok, "I do not think that you should regard it as constraining XFree86 or X.org packages"02:47
fabbioneahh sorry02:47
fabbionei misread02:47
fabbionebut neither i want to start another mess creating /usr/x.org02:47
fabbionemakes no sence to me02:48
fabbioneat that point i could just keep /usr/X11R602:48
fabbionewithout messing around02:48
=== fabbione needs to see 2 minutes of sunshine in the hope that God will kiss his forehead
fabbionei will have to discuss it with Branden02:57
fabbionei don't see a clean solution to this02:57
=== Ubuntu-Linux [~gmail@gnu-debian.user] has joined #ubuntu-devel
Ubuntu-Linuxi reported another bug03:09
Ubuntu-Linuxis the person who email addy cjwatson@canonical.com here?03:09
Ubuntu-Linuxwho is it?03:09
=== Ubuntu-Linux want to poke that person
=== Ubuntu-Linux pokes Kamion
tsengUbuntu-Linux: poking on bugs works, bugzilla sends out an email with changes03:10
Kamionif you're objecting to the severity change, I downgraded it as a routine bug management issue because problems on a single piece of hardware don't justify the 'blocker' severity.03:10
Ubuntu-LinuxKamion: tree.. had to help me when you where the one in charges shess03:10
KamionI can't help everybody individually.03:11
Kamionthere's this small matter of "time"03:11
Ubuntu-Linuxi know03:11
KamionI also don't know what your problem is, and I was put off helping you by statements like "Ubuntu messed with d-i".03:11
Ubuntu-Linuxbut you where there at the same time that i ask and where active03:12
Ubuntu-Linuxthey did03:12
Ubuntu-Linuxit now says ubuntu when you boot up03:12
Ubuntu-Linuxthat even called messing03:12
azeemUbuntu-Linux: crap, Ubuntu writes 'ubuntu' instead of 'debian' when it boots up?03:13
Ubuntu-Linuxi change the aphla d-i i used to say my name03:14
Ubuntu-Linuxi even messed with d-i03:14
Ubuntu-Linuxwho hasnt?03:14
bob2people with a job and/or hobby.03:15
azeemI don't understand your problem (but then, I didn't read the bug-report either)03:15
Ubuntu-Linuxwhat a geek which doesnt mess with his installer to say his name?03:15
=== tseng doesnt
=== chrisa doesn't
Kamionplease take the chatter off #ubuntu-devel, thanks.03:15
=== __daniel shakes his head in disbelief
Ubuntu-Linuxazeem: read it03:15
tsengUbuntu-Linux: hey bud03:15
tsengUbuntu-Linux: the developers have a nice, prioritized list of bug reports. so if you could just hang in patiently, someone will get around to yours03:16
tsengit doesnt help your case much by pestering people directly03:16
Ubuntu-Linuxi have d-i BUG03:16
tsengi have a kernel BUG03:16
Kamionso far the pestering means it's at the bottom of my priority list03:16
=== Ubuntu-Linux want to install ubuntu
chrisaUbuntu-Linux: You're not listening03:17
=== Ubuntu-Linux doesnt want to d/l d-i and do a net install
Ubuntu-Linuxi know03:17
Ubuntu-Linuxbut Kamion is in charge of d-i and person x is in chage of x03:18
=== stevey [~sg@] has joined #ubuntu-devel
azeemUbuntu-Linux: send a patch, like everybody else does03:18
KamionUbuntu-Linux: guess how many bugs that means I have03:18
Ubuntu-LinuxKamion which is in charge of y doesnt do x03:18
chrisaOn a sidenote, I really hope "ubuntu-linux" is a default irc name for the clients and that he didn't actively choose that nick03:18
chrisaBut that's just me...03:18
Ubuntu-LinuxKamion: 2601?03:18
Kamionchrisa: it's not, as far as I know03:18
bob2chrisa: it's not03:19
=== Ubuntu-Linux own ubuntu-linux
bob2chrisa: he was in #debian as GNU-Debian and shimon for a while, too03:19
chrisabob2: sigh03:19
=== tseng sighs and goes to class
tsengg'day boys and girls03:19
thomcya tseng03:19
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Ubuntu-Linuxok so how long till i can get ubuntu installed?03:22
__danielUbuntu-Linux, TRY to be patient - you won't achieve anything by pestering people03:23
Ubuntu-Linuxor should i just d/l d-i and upgrade to ubuntu?03:23
Ubuntu-Linux__daniel: i know03:23
Ubuntu-Linuxi am waiting03:23
Ubuntu-Linuxi just want to know if i should goto sleep tonight and forget about it till sunday03:23
azeemUbuntu-Linux: no, you are pestering. Waiting is without the 'how long till...?' part03:23
chrisaYes, do that03:24
chrisaIf you really cared, you'd just install woody and upgrade03:24
Ubuntu-Linuxi cant install woody03:27
Ubuntu-Linuxi need to install from 2.4.26 or later03:27
chrisaThen go to sleep03:27
Ubuntu-Linuxbecause of drivers03:27
Ubuntu-Linuxso should i d/l d-i net install?03:28
pittiUbuntu-Linux: why you can't download the ISO?03:28
Ubuntu-Linuxand add the ubuntu sources and upgrade?03:28
__danielUbuntu-Linux, try to03:28
chrisaDo what you want to do, staying here and pestering Kamion will get you nowhere03:28
KamionUbuntu-Linux: please do not upgrade the severity of that bug report again.03:28
Ubuntu-Linuxwhich one pitti03:28
pittiUbuntu-Linux: recently I installed a CD-ROM less laptop with the netboot images, that went fine03:28
Ubuntu-LinuxKamion: i didnt03:28
pittiUbuntu-Linux: which one? the release ones?03:29
Ubuntu-Linuxi just repily 03:29
Ubuntu-Linuxi got no network03:29
Ubuntu-Linuxbut i can do debian d-i netinst03:29
pittiUbuntu-Linux: then go ahead with that03:29
Ubuntu-Linuxok will there be any problem if i install from debian sarge d-i03:30
Kamionshimen@gmail.com changed:03:30
Kamion           What    |Removed                     |Added03:30
Kamion           Severity|normal                      |blocker03:30
Ubuntu-Linuxpitti: i am froced to use manbrake03:30
bob2you're not forced to do anything03:31
bob2if you can install sarge, you can move to ubuntu03:31
pittiUbuntu-Linux: you can't download the ISO from anywhere?03:31
Ubuntu-LinuxKamion: what setting should it be on my side03:31
KamionUbuntu-Linux: I changed it to normal. Please leave it there.03:31
Ubuntu-Linuxpitti: my hdd died and it was the only cd i had i d/l and burned ubuntu03:31
pittiUbuntu-Linux: so you _have_ an Ubuntu CD?03:32
Ubuntu-LinuxKamion: yea but on my side its still blocker and p503:32
pittiUbuntu-Linux: an older one perhaps?03:32
Ubuntu-Linuxthe final03:32
Ubuntu-Linuxno latest03:32
pittiUbuntu-Linux: ah, and this doesn't boot for you?03:32
pittiUbuntu-Linux: you are the G5 guy?03:32
Ubuntu-Linuxit a fscking driver problem03:32
Ubuntu-Linuxit does boot for me03:33
KamionUbuntu-Linux: reload.03:33
Ubuntu-Linuxptti MIND reading my bug03:33
Kamion00:1f.2 IDE interface: Intel Corp. 82801EB Ultra ATA Storage Controller (rev 02)03:33
Kamionthat's strange, I can't see that in /usr/share/misc/pci.ids03:33
Ubuntu-Linuxi enabled emation of sata as pata03:34
Ubuntu-Linuxdoes that matter?03:34
=== Ubuntu-Linux reboots goes from bios and see if it helps
Kamionhm, maybe it's 808624db03:34
Kamionwhich is ide/piix in discover03:35
Ubuntu-Linux*because i was using a 2.4 kernel and no FULL sata support03:35
Ubuntu-LinuxKamion: so should i disable emalation03:35
Kamionworth a try03:35
Kamionalso check that the piix and ata_piix modules are loaded03:35
Ubuntu-Linuxif i am not back in 4min then its working03:35
dynplease.. dont..03:37
__danielKamion, i admire your patience :-)03:38
KamionI don't have much of it left03:38
__danielKamion, i think you did quite well03:38
=== Sledge applauds Kamion for restraint
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fabbionei think we will live with X11R6 until there is a better solution04:09
fabbionekilling it now isn't an option without polluting *04:10
azeembetter solution than X11R6 or better solution than what you thought up till now?04:10
fabbioneazeem: read above :-)04:10
fabbioneby policy we can't install into */X1104:11
azeemoh, missed that, sorry04:11
fabbioneazeem: if you have better ideas, please say so04:13
azeemthen change policy :)04:13
fabbioneit's not like i am closed mind04:13
fabbioneazeem: that will take too long :-)))04:13
azeemwell, I don't know about the dpkg limitation for using /usr/include/X11 directly, but that would be the cleanest IMHO04:13
fabbioneand few flames all over04:14
azeem/usr/bin for binaries and perhaps a subdir for /usr/lib, whatever the name04:14
fabbioneazeem: there are no limitations in using X11 in general04:14
fabbionebut if i start creating subdirs around..04:14
azeemwell, the part about replacing a symlink04:14
fabbionei can just live with X11R604:14
fabbionesee.. either we integrate everything inside the FHS (considering X11R6 not fHS compliant)04:15
fabbioneor otherwise it's not worth the mess to just rename 2 directories/symlinks04:15
azeemhaving subdirs in /usr/{include,lib} is common practise for libraries04:15
fabbione(considering the amount of packages that use then)04:15
azeemhaving subdire in /usr is not04:15
fabbionetrue.. i don't disagree on this04:16
azeemperhaps you could swap it around and live compatiblity symlinks in /usr/X11R6 (pointing to /usr/{include,lib}/X11 for a while?04:16
azeemand then kill them off eventually04:17
azeem(like /usr/doc, hahaha)04:17
fabbioneazeem: eventually = undetermined amount of time.04:17
fabbioneno i am not that nice with other maintainers :-P04:17
azeemone release 04:17
azeemwhich means, half a year for ubuntu and an undetermined amount of time for Debian04:18
fabbioneazeem: another release = 6 months here and something between 4 to 10 years in debian04:18
fabbioneexactly :P04:18
=== azeem ^5s fabbione
=== AndyFitz [~andy@] has left #ubuntu-devel []
fabbioneno i think i will leave X11R6 for now04:18
fabbionethe changes are too deep to be done by a single/two persons04:18
fabbionewe need a team working on it.04:18
fabbione(without considering the amount of changes that the code requires)04:19
azeemwhat's wrong with swapping the symlinks around? Is there a technical problem with that?04:19
fabbionethis definetly has to be done upstream04:19
azeemat least, that would set a signal that X11R6 is deprecated04:19
fabbioneazeem: probably swapping them no.04:19
=== __daniel [~daniel@td9091b81.pool.terralink.de] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Verlassend"]
Kamionswapping the symlinks around requires some very hairy preinst code and probably has undetermined compatibility implications ...04:19
fabbionebut i wonder when X12R1 will be out...04:19
fabbioneand a big API change will take place04:20
fabbioneit's going to be the hell storing includes all in /usr/include/X1104:20
fabbionewe need to be able to differenciate them04:20
fabbioneat least...04:20
azeemwell, X12R1 will have /usr/include/X12, no?04:21
KamionX11 and X12 will *have* to be co-installable04:22
Kamionat least the libraries and preferably development packages04:22
azeemif you want the static libs to be parallel installable, but them in a subdir of /lib04:23
azeemeh, /usr/lib04:23
bob2X12 is on the cards?04:23
azeemhow do the other distributions handle this? Most of them have switched to x.org by now, havent' they?04:23
fabbioneuh true :)04:23
fabbioneazeem: yes. but i doubt they have remove X11R604:24
azeemwe're at X11R8 or so right now?04:25
azeemeh, aren't we at X11R8 or so right now?04:25
azeemso, X12 on the radar, or X11R7?04:25
fabbionenothing on the radar atm04:25
fabbionei am just pondering for the future04:25
azeemwhat compatibility promises have the X guys taken?04:26
azeemwill they break binary compatibility with X11R7?04:26
fabbionethey shouldn't...04:26
azeemeh, good04:26
fabbionei can't remember if RX was for the binary compatibility and X11 the version of the protocol04:27
fabbioneso new version of the protocol breaks world04:27
fabbioneand binary compatibility kinda04:27
bob2when was the last time X broke compatibility?04:30
bob2er, ABI.04:30
fabbionecan't remember04:31
fabbioneprobably 3.3 -> 4.004:31
bob2fabbione: did you have much to do with X before joining the XSF?04:31
azeemfabbione: what about you ask keithp for his opinion? Isn't he a DD now?04:32
fabbionebob2: no04:32
fabbioneanyway removing /usr/include/X11 is not an option04:32
bob2hah, wow, you got sucked in quick :-)04:32
fabbionesome x packages build-deps on packages that pulls in other x packages04:32
fabbioneincluding stuff in /usr/include/X1104:33
fabbioneazeem: i am still thinking... and more i think, more i am convinced that upstream is the first one that should do it04:33
azeemI don't see a need to remove /include/X11. Would you just dump everything in /include?04:33
fabbioneazeem: if i dump everything in /usr/include it will be a mess04:34
Kamionazeem: you'd have to change every X program04:34
fabbionei still need a X11 symlink04:34
Kamiongetting rid of /usr/include/X11/ would be broken04:35
fabbione#include <X11/foo.h> 0wns you04:35
fabbioneand switching it from a symlink to a dir will make X or X.org unbuildable04:35
pittifabbione: right, so what exactly is wrong with /usr/include/X11? Just because it's a symlink?04:36
fabbionei guess we will live with X11R6 :-)04:36
fabbionepitti: no04:36
pittifabbione: okay, you just answered.04:36
azeemfabbione: at least mandrake still uses X11R6, I just asked04:37
azeemprobably the others as well. So I guess it's the right way for now04:37
=== fabbione reverts the changes
azeemfabbione: anyway, why would switching /usr/include/X11 from a symlink to a dir make X or X.org unbuildable?04:41
fabbioneazeem: because almost all the documentation requires groff04:41
fabbioneand groff pulls in several X stuff04:41
fabbioneincluding things in /usr/X11R6/include04:42
azeemoh, circular Build-Depends?04:42
fabbioneif we fuck up one upload nobody will build anything for a long while04:42
Kamionuh, the groff source package has documentation of how to avoid the X build-dependency04:43
Kamionbut yes, groff is just one example of the zillion programs that want /usr/include/X11/04:43
fabbioneKamion: than i will need a xgroff to build x04:44
fabbionegroff simply depends on these packages04:44
Kamionno you don't, you build groff with DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=groff-no-x11, then you build X, then you build groff properly04:44
fabbioneKamion: so you need a temporary groff around04:44
Kamionyes, welcome to bootstrapping04:45
Kamionit's only gxditview that needs X1104:45
fabbioneKamion: it would be easier for me to create a anti-x-groff and upload it :-)04:46
Kamionand die shortly afterwards :)04:47
Kamiontetex is no different04:47
Kamionyou need it for some of the docs too AIUI, but it build-deps on X04:48
fabbioneyeah i also build-dep on tetex04:48
fabbioneand X build-deps on it04:48
azeemwell, I believe this circular Build-Dep is not a very good reason to keep X11R6 alive, in case we agree it should in principle die04:48
fabbionecool, isn't it?04:48
Kamiongroff doesn't pull stuff in from /usr/X11R6/include/ directly though, it uses the symlink04:48
elmo_fabbione: okay, the security stuff is in theory done - if you don't mind, I'd like to wait for mdz to ack it before you start using it04:48
fabbioneelmo_: sure i don't mind04:49
kylemwow. that installation went well. good work guys.04:49
fabbioneelmo_: i am not sure for how long i can stay around04:49
fabbioneelmo_: in the worst case we will do tomorrow04:49
elmo_fabbione: well, can you put your upload somewhere so matt could upload, it and try the new mechanism out?04:50
fabbioneelmo_: otherwise i can just handover the packages to pitti since he will take care of security04:50
fabbioneelmo_: sure04:50
fabbioneazeem: anyway i have a very limited amount of time04:53
fabbioneazeem: i need a decision asap04:53
fabbioneand i think that for the next 6 months we can live with X11R604:53
fabbionewe had it around for ages04:53
fabbione6 months more or 6 months less won't kill anybody04:53
fabbioneand etch will not be released by that04:54
azeemfabbione: well, I'd talk to keithp and the rest of the x.org maintainers whether they ponder changing that general X11R6 prefix04:54
fabbioneazeem: i know daniels did all these changes in his tree04:56
fabbioneazeem: but the problem is i dunno how robusts they are04:56
fabbioneand he only built xc/lib/04:56
fabbionenot xc/*04:56
azeemmaybe it really is the best to wait for the modular X before killing X11R604:56
fabbionei agree04:57
=== azeem_ [~mbanck@socks-out.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel
mdz_elmo_: what kind of ack do you need?05:01
elmo_mdz: err, see your mail?  just that your happy with it?  also, per your instructions, you're the only one who can run amber atm05:02
mdz_elmo_: no, just got up, haven't read it yet05:02
=== wartylog [~warthylog@port49.ds1-van.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-devel
=== Topic for #ubuntu-devel: Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Warty Day! | 13 (count 'em) major bugs | BE THE SIGNAL | Warty release is DONE | please test http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041021-06/warty-live-i386-20041021-06.iso so it can be warty-rc2-live-i386.iso
=== Topic (#ubuntu-devel): set by lamont at Thu Oct 21 07:35:46 2004
(daniels/#ubuntu-devel) the problem with Debian is that they're not progressive enough. if they opened it up to, say, hip-hop artists and dnb producers ...07:19
(Kamion/#ubuntu-devel) hence, also, the sounder@ mailing list07:19
(daniels/#ubuntu-devel) doogie: but humour nevertheless, and it's what we have.07:19
(doogie/#ubuntu-devel) daniels: *the* problem with debian?07:19
azeemeverything else would be solved instantly if we s/etch/rakim/07:21
bob2mix master etch07:22
lamontKamion: apparently d-i doesn't like empty Packages files either...07:23
Kamionlamont: empty Packages files where?07:23
lamontmy mirror07:23
doogiebob2: don't start07:24
doogiemaybe there should be theme music with each release?07:24
lamontI didn't tell it to mirror anything from multiverse, but did tell it about the component. --> 0 length Packages file.  And a coaster. :-(07:24
danielsdoogie: we ship an ubuntu-sounds package with default sounds07:24
=== lamont lunches
doogiedaniels: not what I meant.07:24
bob2doogie: it would combine the best features of Debian and OpenBSD07:24
doogieI mean each release has a custom mix track, or some such07:24
Kamionlamont: cdimage doesn't mirror universe or multiverse at all ...07:25
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mdz_lamont: is 1021-06 the latest live CD candidate?07:36
=== hornbeck [~hornbeck@adsl-69-153-250-222.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
amumdz_: yes07:44
=== T-Bone [~varenet@T-Bone.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-devel
mdz_downloading it to test07:48
T-BoneKamion: ping?07:51
KamionT-Bone: yep?07:52
T-BoneKamion: do you want to do the "setup" now or tomorrow?07:53
KamionT-Bone: now's fine, just going to grab a bite to eat07:54
T-Bone ok07:54
T-Bonei'll wait ;)07:54
Kamionbut tell me what you need and I'll catch up07:54
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T-BoneKamion: actually i need _you_ to tell me what you need ;)07:55
Kamionhm, ok07:59
T-Bonethat includes material and tasks you'd like me to work on ;)08:00
Kamionwell, the other day I think I said that I'd like to be able to drop in a new netboot kernel and initrd, reboot remotely from that image, and have remote access to its console.08:00
T-Boneso you need dhcp server08:00
T-Bonei have a server already setup, i'll give you access to it08:01
T-Boneso if you just need that and the ia64 box, i need a ssh2 public key, and a login08:01
Kamionthe other things we need to put together for d-i are: linux-kernel-di-ia64-2.6 package based on the Ubuntu kernel, ports of all the bootloader installer and partitioner component packages from Debian, and probably additions of ia64 to a few lists08:02
Kamionlogin name cjwatson, where can I mail the key?08:02
Kamionit'll be a while before I can actually start using this for testing of course, so the buildd work is higher-priority08:03
T-Boneyeah i got that08:03
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T-Boneunfortunately i need lamont's skills now, cause i hit something strange that _shouldn't_ have happened. We are waiting for him to complete stage1 as well and see if he has the same problem08:04
hornbeckhey plovs08:04
Kamionwill need to figure out what needs to change in debian-installer to port the ia64 initrds to Ubuntu08:04
KamionI only did the changes for the arches we support08:04
Kamionthink it should all be fairly easy, anyway, amd64 wasn't hard08:05
Kamioni386 and powerpc were hard because they were the first ones. :)08:06
Kamionpartman-efi, efi-reader, and elilo-installer are clean of possible debconf-priority damage, too; good08:07
Kamionbut elilo-installer will need to be Ubuntu-branded.08:07
mdz_justdave: ping?08:10
Kamionhm, and partman-efi needs branding too08:11
Kamionjoy and rapture08:11
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=== _danny__ is now known as sivang
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hornbeckplovs: I agree that Mulligan is doing good doc work08:22
mdz_lamont, amu: 1021-06 looks good to me08:23
justdavemdz_: pong08:23
plovsyeah, we might ask hi to join, join the wiki-team page in a how-to use the wiki and wiki notespage08:23
mdzjustdave: is it possible to change the default on the "find a specific bug" page to search all bugs, open and closed?08:23
mdzjustdave: and just have it sort open bugs ahead of closed ones?08:23
hornbeckplovs: I agree, if we go and split a small team like doc already we are in for trouble08:24
justdavechanging the default on the open/closed state to all is easy.  changing the default sort can probably be done, but isn't so easy08:24
sivangSo, a wiki team under doc team? :)08:24
hornbecksivang: I am suggesting we just try to get him to work with us, and that the wiki maintanance should just go along with with docs08:25
plovsunder sounds bad, let's say the wiki-team will spearhead the doc-team08:25
hornbeckI say no wikiteam08:25
hornbeckthere is a doc team08:25
hornbeckwe do docs08:25
hornbeckwiki is a doc08:25
sivanghornbeck : who is he?08:25
sivangwho are we talking about? :)08:26
hornbecksivang: KevinMulligan08:26
hornbeckif he is here please speak up08:26
plovsthere was a thread on the mailinglist also let me find it ... brb08:26
plovsask in #ubuntu08:26
hornbeckI will search real quick08:27
mdzjustdave: can you change the open/closed default, and look into the sort?08:27
mdzjustdave: let me know if you'd prefer I filed a bug about this request08:27
sivangok, I read his page08:27
hornbeckplovs: his mail must have come when I changed to my new computer08:28
hornbeckI have a reply but that is it08:28
=== sivang is way lagged after the list. checking now.
seb128mdz: have you tested the current liveCD ? The localisation is fine ? I've downloaded it yesterday and the french localisation is broken ...08:29
plovsi love gmail, found it in 3 seconds08:29
mdzseb128: I did not test French localisation08:29
mdzbut it works for me in the default english locale08:29
seb128could you test ?08:29
seb128but I get such messages "locale: Cannot set LC_MESSAGES to default locale: No such file or directory" 08:30
seb128and the apps (panel, evo, ...) are not in french08:30
plovsDOC it seems it is only one guy, we might just send him a mail08:30
plovsor we can write on his page, maybe i'll do that if you guys agree08:30
hornbeckplovs: do you want to mail him?08:30
seb128and LANG=fr_FR@euro according to "locale"08:31
hornbeckplovs: that might be good08:31
=== maskie [~maskie@196-30-111-58.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-devel
mdzseb128: /usr/lib/locale is empty08:31
mdzseb128: no locales are generated08:31
plovssure i'll mail him and ask to add himself to the doc-team08:31
hornbeckplovs: tell him also that we think it might be bad to make multiple teams when it comes to docs08:31
justdaveok, turns out the sort order was trivial to fix, after all.08:31
justdaveall done08:31
hornbeckman beagle is rocking08:32
justdaveit was specified in the form, not in the cgi :)08:32
mdzseb128: I get the same errors08:32
=== justdave tweaks it to sort on resolution instead of status
mdzseb128: it gets EACCES opening /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive08:33
justdaveso all open bugs will still be sorted by relevance08:33
mdzseb128: after I've run locale-gen08:33
justdaveregardless of status08:33
seb128hum, weird08:33
mdzseb128: it is mode 60008:33
mdzseb128: so I changed it to 64408:34
mdzseb128: and now evolution is in French08:34
hornbecksivang: is the gnome-guide mainly what you are working on?08:34
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mdzseb128: what procedure did you use to set your locale on the live CD?08:34
mdzseb128: dpkg-reconfigure locales?08:34
seb128mdz: no, I've just picked Submenu -> Supported languages in the boot screen08:35
sivanghornbeck : currently yes, I Have also pending works on the wiki, would appriciate if you could continue with it a bit08:35
seb128and then french08:35
mdzor is there something at the morphix boot prompt which sets it?08:35
mdzI'll check if that has the same problem08:35
hornbecksivang: continue with the guide?08:35
seb128I'm restarting the liveCD on a box right now08:35
sivanghornbeck : yes, if you could I'd appriciate it.08:35
seb128mdz: in fact a french user pinged me about this. According to him it was working fine with the version is download some days ago08:35
hornbecksivang: just resend to me and I will see what I can do08:36
sivanghornbeck : ok, do you want diffs also, or do you want to wait for 2.8.1 docs altogether maybe?08:36
hornbecksivang: just send me your diffs08:36
hornbeckor the whole folder08:36
hornbeckdoes not matter08:37
plovshornbeck: sivang what do you guys think about the kind of layout for wiki-pages?08:37
hornbeckplovs: are you talking about a standard?08:37
sivangthe current layout is not good enough?08:38
hornbeckplovs,sivang: I think we need to standardize all the pages, to use same formats08:38
plovspages look all a little different and we just began, it is now or never08:39
sivangplovs : gemme some examples08:39
plovswhen we have 2000+ pages it might be a little late08:39
hornbeckplovs: they all need to look the same08:39
plovssivang: just a sec08:39
=== vorlon_ is now known as vorlon
mdzseb128: confirmed, I get English if I boot with the French option08:40
mdznever mind08:40
mdzseb128: it works08:40
seb128oh ?08:40
mdzit's just that the computer menu is not localised08:40
hornbeckplovs: it will be impossable to make them identical, but we can at least make the standards the same08:40
mdznor is "applications" or "computer"08:40
mdzbut the menu items under applications are localised08:40
seb128mdz: yes, these are .desktop files08:40
seb128not po files08:40
seb128nothing to do with the locales08:40
mdzand evolution is not localised08:40
mdzand it has given me a French keyboard layout it seems :-)08:41
=== carlos [~carlos@69.Red-80-33-181.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
plovssivang: compare http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/BasicCommands with http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/BeagleInstallHowto08:41
mdzseb128: it is the same bug08:41
plovsdifferent styles08:41
plovsnot big differences but stil...08:41
hornbeckplovs: both are my pages :)08:41
mdzseb128: /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive is -rw-------08:42
hornbeckplovs: I have not changed the basiccommands page yet08:42
mdzseb128: please file it in bugzilla08:42
plovshornbeck: :) i know08:42
plovshornbeck: i like the beaglepage08:42
hornbeckplovs: I have been working on the beaglepage nonstop because new stuff keeps happening08:42
seb128mdz: ok, thanks08:42
hornbeckplovs: I need to remake the whole BasicCommands page08:43
plovsit rocks, i want to do it all the time, but have no time08:43
hornbeckplovs: I know how that is08:43
plovssivang: what if we make the beaglepage layout the basic layout?08:44
sivangplovs : I like it better, yes.08:44
hornbeckplovs: I think that would work08:44
plovswe can make an empty howto page called DocumentationHowto and point to it08:44
sivangwell, have a look at /HowDoc08:44
sivanghornbeck : If I recall right your comments about the laytout, you want everything that needs be typed to be in a "code" box right?08:45
hornbecksivang: yes08:45
plovssivang: it is easier to copy and paste from there08:46
hornbecksivang, plovs: it makes it easier to copy and paste sections08:46
plovsand it looks nice :)08:46
plovssivang: but whatever we do it looks best if it is the same08:46
sivangok, I suggest we streamline it as so. I will modify HowDoc accordingly08:47
hornbeckplovs, sivang: is someone going to note all this stuff?08:47
sivanghornbeck : I am , see the line before :)08:48
hornbecksivang: I read right as I was hitting enter08:48
plovssivang: nice, will you make DocumentationHowto?08:48
plovsor should I do it?08:49
hornbeckHowDoc is basicly a DocumentationHowto08:49
hornbeckmaybe needs a name change?08:49
hornbecksince we are mainly going with Howto at the end of howto's08:49
plovswhat we can do is making DocumentationHowto and use [[IncludePage()] ]  to put it inside HowDoc08:51
hornbeckplovs: good idea08:51
hornbeckplovs: is there a good wiki howto out there/08:51
hornbeckI am learning wiki markup as we go08:51
plovshornbeck: brb08:52
plovshornbeck: http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/HelpIndex 08:52
plovshornbeck: especially HelpOnMacros08:52
plovshornbeck: and HelpOnMacros08:53
hornbeckplovs: thanks08:53
plovshornbeck: the include is a little broken you can only include whole pages08:54
plovshornbeck: moin 1.3 will/should solve that08:54
hornbeckshould we just rename that page?08:54
hornbeckthan just add new stuff to it08:54
hornbeckhave a '''wiki howto''' '''docbook howto''' all on the same page?08:55
hornbecka stop shop08:55
plovslook at CategoryCategory , you can just make an automatic list08:55
hornbeckyou lost me08:56
plovsif you look at the page-source you'll see it's just two lines08:58
plovsso you can make a HowtoPage with an automatic links to all howto's08:58
plovssomething like that08:58
hornbeckbut the main question is, should we just be HowDoc into DocumentationHowto08:59
hornbeckI think it makes more since08:59
sivangyes, I think of HowDoc to be both for offline stuff we do, and wiki content guidline. have 2 sections on that.08:59
hornbecksivang: a rename though?09:00
sivangoh, you want it to have HowTo at the end09:00
plovshornbeck: a howto is usually short and to the point (kernel howto is too long)09:00
sivangfor the catrgorization to work.09:00
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plovshornbeck: a document is long and detailed09:00
plovshornbeck: i *think*09:00
hornbeckplovs: DocDoc than?09:00
hornbeckplovs: kernel howto is long no matter what09:01
plovswhat about ending doc-stuff in Doc or Document?09:01
plovshornbeck: there are three kernel-pages already, that needs cleaning up09:01
hornbeckplovs: I noticed today09:01
plovsWritingGuidelinesDoc ?09:02
hornbeckplovs: the one I made was made real nice09:02
hornbeckplovs: that works09:02
hornbeckshoudl the kernelhowto be made KernelInstallDoc?09:02
plovsyes that's better i think09:04
hornbeckmake it so09:04
sivangbtw, I think the wiki team falls nicely under the "documentation sounder team" accoridng to the outlined tasks it carries09:04
plovssivang: what do you think Howto pages and Doc pages?09:04
sivangplovs : well, actually I think that big docs should be shorty incorporated into PLone CMS, and the wiki should be acting more of a bleeding edge corner and docdevel works09:05
hornbecksivang: we are not at that area yet, but what do you think for right now09:06
sivanghornbeck : yes it's good, then we should have 2 indexes for Guides / Howtos. Like on http://www.debian.org/doc/09:07
hornbecksivang: I agree09:08
plovssivang: i agree, but in wiki, they can be worked on.09:10
plovswhat about something like: http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/AlexanderPoslavsky_2fPlayGround09:11
plovsand then one for the docs09:11
plovsfeel free to mess up that page09:11
plovshornbeck: how good are you at python?09:12
hornbeckplovs: decent09:12
hornbeckI do alot of it for my jobs09:12
hornbeckplovs: why you ask?09:13
plovshornbeck: i played around with a moin2docbook.py thingie but i'm just starting with python09:13
hornbeckplovs: did you write it?09:13
plovshornbeck: i wrote open file, close file check parameters ... so no, not yet09:14
plovshornbeck: i am trying to understand classes09:14
hornbeckplovs: if that is something you would like to work on together, send me what you have and we can work on it09:14
hornbeckbrb have to order books for my classes09:15
plovssivang: yes, like the debian guys09:17
sivangplovs : actually the python classes are the nicest and most straightforward I've seen compared to Java, C++ etc09:18
plovssivang: that says something about my programming :(09:19
sivangplovs : no, you might no thave any other introduction to OOP langs, so that might explain it :)09:19
plovssivang: it is the first time, and i need more time to read it09:20
plovssivang: how difficult is it to make yelp docs?09:20
sivangsivang : but you'll catch on fast, if you programmed before - take "Dive into python" by Mark Pilgream , very good 09:20
sivangplovs : actually, you just learn the DTD and that's it. You're writing XML09:21
plovssivang: i have it installed :)09:21
hornbeckok, I am back09:21
plovssivang: if we could write this converter then we could just convert wiki pages (they are really basic) to XML09:21
sivangplovs : you can do some work on the manual, it teaches you about the dtd as you see al those tags for representing menu choises, items.09:21
plovssivang: *the* manual?09:22
sivangplovs : Yes, I have talked with Enrico about that - We might have the Plone CMS team to do this for us maybe09:22
plovssivang: duh, what manual?09:22
hornbeckplovs: we can work on it, if someone else does it, it will at least give you some experiance with python09:23
sivangplovs : yes, the gnome official needs some adjustments and modification to nicely follow Ubuntu's desktop looks and actions.09:23
hornbeckplovs: also Docbook is easy09:23
hornbeckjust follow what is already there, for most manuals09:23
plovssivang: i am trying to concentrate on two things, my wife is explaining diets and recipes to me from the second computer09:23
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hornbeckplovs: I understand that :)09:24
plovshornbeck: how would you go about converting a file from moin to docbook? i have a look for line in file with lot of re.match09:25
hornbeckI have wife and two kids, who talk to me while I do all this09:25
hornbeckplovs: I would have to start hacking on it honestly, I am not a good enough programmer to explain it off the top of my head09:25
hornbeckI am more of a hit or miss guy, learn as I go09:26
plovshornbeck: well, i'll write some more and thn send it, it would be nice to get a converter09:27
hornbeckplovs: cool09:27
hornbeckplovs: if you want to learn docbook work on the gnome-guide with sivang09:27
hornbeckits a good starting place09:27
plovssivang: can yelp use non-local =internet files?09:28
hornbeckyelp just reads DTD as far as I know09:28
sivangplovs : lemme ask it's developer for a sec :)09:28
plovssivang: do you hve some simple task?09:29
sivangplovs : no it can't, and won't.09:30
plovssivang: less is more, i should have guessed, this is not kde09:30
hornbecksivang: are you in #docs?09:30
=== hornbeck [~hornbeck@adsl-69-153-250-222.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
sivanghornbeck : yes09:34
plovssivang: i could take HowDoc from common approach, and put it in DocHowto, and the 09:34
plovsn link it back09:34
sivangplovs : ok09:34
plovshornbeck: sivang what page do we use for suggestions to the documentation team?09:39
hornbeckhows that sound?09:40
mdzdoes anyone here have a copy of vmware?09:42
hornbeckplovs: sivang: are we renameing HowDoc and the KernelHowto?09:42
hornbeckI have 4.5 for linux somewhere mdz09:42
mdzhornbeck: if it is the eval version, is it possible for me to get a copy?09:42
mdzI'm trying to track down this bug: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=249209:43
hornbeckmdz: you can download the eval version09:43
mdznot without registering on their website, getting an evaluation key, etc.09:43
mdzI just want to look at some of the files09:44
mdzand see if it is doing what I suspect it may be09:44
hornbeckI don't have a eval version09:44
hornbeckI can get the eval version for you if you want09:44
mdzcan you look and see if it changes the samba startup links?09:44
hornbeckI will have to install, I have it on disk right now09:45
hornbeckI got it along time ago, when I still used windows some09:45
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sivanghornbeck : what's the software ?09:46
sivangmdz : I am running samba on this machine, should I try and upgrade and test it?09:50
hornbeckmdz: I can send to you with reg code if you would like09:50
hornbeckI just started download and got registered09:50
pittielmo_, mdz: can I put the security packages somewhere, so that either of you can upload them? I'm going to bed soon09:50
sivangI have upgraded samba while it was still running, wasn't able to reproduce.09:54
hornbeckmdz: I now have the eval copy with reg code. Do you want me to send to you?09:55
hornbeckI am not running samba so I would not be able to test09:55
hornbeckplovs: you still around?09:57
sivanghornbeck : yes10:01
hornbeckok, no one was answering so I was wondering if I was still connected10:01
hornbeckwell I am off to work10:02
sivangnight hornbeck10:03
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mxpxpodchrisa: ping10:06
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ploumI just want to thanks all developpers and Mark for the wonderful Warty release. Good job guys, it's really great !10:09
plovshornbeck: sorry, yes10:12
hornbeckplovs: I wanted to say keep up the good work :)10:13
plovshornbeck: goodnight :) !10:13
plovssivang: good night!10:13
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sivangplovs : night10:13
mdzploum: thanks :-)10:15
hornbeckmdz: you want the vmware?10:16
mdzhornbeck: sure, thanks10:16
mdzsivang: if you have vmware installed, yes, that would be a good test10:16
sivangmdz : installing in the background10:17
mdzhornbeck: dcc won't work; I'm behind a firewall here10:18
hornbeckhow can I get it to you?10:18
mdzhornbeck: I just finished drafting a short howto on how to use the community support resources, in the wiki10:18
mdzhornbeck: I'd be interested in your feedback10:19
sivangmdz : I'll give it a look also :)10:19
hornbeckmdz: you get my pm?10:19
hornbeckmdz: nice use of eric raymond site10:21
hornbeckmdz: adding a link to the doc howto at the bottom would help when saying "or how about a howto article" and have the link to the dochowto10:22
mdzhornbeck: by all means10:23
hornbeckmdz: added10:24
hornbeckwell all, I really have to go now10:24
mdzI've tried the vmware eval download about 20 times and it's no good10:25
mdzI'll keep fiddling :-)10:25
hornbeckkeep working at it :)10:25
=== hornbeck is now known as hornbeck|away
theantixany idea why there is no php4-common in Ubuntu like there is in Debian Sid?  some universe packages depend on it... any developer I can talk to about the reasons for that or any workaround?10:25
makohornbeck|away: great stuff10:25
sivangmdz : you tried the tarball?10:26
mdzsivang: no, I'm trying to download it10:26
mdzI was hoping to find someone who already had a copy and could poke around and see if it does anything nasty to /etc/rc?.d10:27
sivangmdz : I suppose it does. It always added stuff to bootup scripts when I Used it on sarge,sid and RH10:27
mdzsivang: ls -l /etc/rc?.d/K09samba10:27
mdzif that file exists, that's a good clue10:28
sivangmdz : after I install it :) I will10:28
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lamont_rseb128 around?10:30
sivangmdz : "read the FAQ"  is broken on Plone, I opened a bug on it on bugzilla but till isn't corrected10:31
sivangmdz : the link you pointed from the wikie10:31
seb128lamont_r: yes10:31
lamont_rhow does /usr/lib/locale/fr get populated?10:32
mdzsivang: fixed the link, thanks10:32
lamont_rand btw, the french keyboard is just plain screwed up.10:32
sivangmdz : no prob. this is also referenced from _within_  the plone somewhere.10:32
lamont_rI mean layout-wise, that is10:32
seb128lamont_r: /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive you mean ?10:33
lamont_rthe errors from strace indicate that it's tryting to open /usr/lib/locale/fr/LC_*10:33
seb128lamont_r: have you read your mails (#2292) ?10:34
seb1282614 I mean10:35
lamont_rnot yet10:35
seb128the problem is /usr/lib/locale/locale-archive being 60010:35
seb128(thanks mdz for finding this)10:35
seb128chmod 644 it and that works fine10:36
lamont_ron the liveCD?10:36
=== lamont_r adds a 'umask 0' to the build process, and pushes things to the top of the hill
=== mdz gapes
mdzlamont_r: that file is created dynamically during boot10:37
mdzmust be10:37
lamont_rah, ok.10:37
mdznot that umask 0 would be a good idea _anyway_...:-)10:38
lamont_rmeans I'll have to go find that.10:38
seb128it is, depending of the locale selected in the menu10:38
lamont_rjust knew that i have 022 , which still wouldn't explain it...10:38
amulamont_r: problem ( warning )  with booting, umount: /.dev not found ; rmdir: invalid option --f; can't create /var/lib/dhcp3/dhclient.leases: Read-only file system; alsactl: load_state:1134: No soundcards found ...  10:38
lamont_ris anything getting 077 as a umask?10:38
lamont_ramu: we're ignoring the leases file issue10:38
lamont_rbut rmdir -f could use some staring at10:38
mdzthat file wouldn't be there after a reboot anyway :-)10:38
amulamont_r: i took screenshots10:39
lamont_rright - that's because we switched from pump to dhclient3...10:39
lamont_ramu: cool10:39
=== lamont_r is sitting at the mechanics and using dialup.
mdzsomething must be calling localedef or locale-gen somewhere in the boot process10:39
lamont_rhence testing is gonna be a bitch10:39
mdzbased on the lang= boot parameter10:39
lamont_rmdz: yes.10:39
amugrubsplash you should wait min. 60sec. instead of 5  10:40
lamont_rright before it starts pcmcia10:40
lamont_ramu: hell no10:40
lamont_ruse case is enduser, not technical people.10:40
lamont_rend user doesn't want the 1 min wasted time10:40
amulamont_r: process bar is ok now ;) 10:40
lamont_rthis was discussed wrt the installed box quite a whileback10:40
lamont_ramu: jdub fixed that last night10:40
lamont_rmdz: do we care that gnome takes forever to come up under some situation involving  no link?10:41
lamont_rlink beat, that is.10:41
amulamont_r: ok, we should note that in a part of the faq bootoptions *ducks* 10:41
mdzlamont_r: depends on how long forever is10:41
lamont_r< 5 minutes10:41
lamont_rjust long enough to go WTF and reboot.10:41
amuuploading screenshot 10:42
mdzlamont_r: do you realize that sources.list on the CD contains people.ubuntu.com/~lamont entries?10:42
=== lamont_r notices that elmo used a large club in locking down warty
lamont_rmdz: yes10:42
lamont_rbut that's ok, because apt-get update exits immediateluy10:42
lamont_rhttp method is busted, alex blames part of the kernel hacks10:43
lamont_ryeah - in select on a socket10:44
lamont_r"I was suspicious of that socket code"10:44
mdzwhat socket code?10:46
=== lamont_r looks
=== lamont_r forgpt the package name
lamont_rmdz: minifo10:47
lamont_ror rather, probably minifo-2.6.710:48
mdzisn't that the filesystem overlay thing?10:48
mdzI do not see what that has to do with TCP sockets, which are what that program is using10:48
lamont_rsockets are fd's, which go through the filesystem...10:50
lamont_rand alex really thought the socket handling was, um, suspect10:50
lamont_rmdz: think unix domain sockets10:50
mdzI agree, it probably is10:50
mdzbut apt doesn't use unix domain sockets10:50
lamont_rbut the sockets code gets involved anyway10:51
mdzyou're saying that mini_fo mangles generic socket code?10:52
=== mdz runs away
mdzno wonder that thing will never go near upstream10:52
mdzwhere can I get a copy of that patch?10:52
lamont_rmdz: nfc - I didn't even look at it, other than 'http method dies with segv, and strace, pick on alex'.  see p.u.c/~lamont/LiveCD/morphix/source10:54
=== amu detects a bugs bombarding
mdzI didn't realize you had noticed that major things were broken and weren't filing bugs about them10:56
lamont_r1) didn't see apt not working as major - it's a livecd.  2) the last bug I asked someone to file I got told "please dont"10:57
lamont_rthe localization bug was mentioned last night - investingating today.10:58
mdzlamont_r: that was regarding "the live CD has fundamentally different hardware detection" which is a design issue10:59
lamont_rbut still a WONTFIX bug.10:59
lamont_ror at least NOTWARTY11:00
lamont_rbecause we've already declared it to be RC for hoary11:00
mdzdoesn't apt work on morphix?11:01
lamont_rnot recent disks, apparently11:01
mdzif it doesn't, I really don't see the point of tolerating all this mini_fo madness11:01
mdzthat seems like the only reason11:01
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=== lamont_r adds a chmod to the morphix startup scripts
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lamont_rmdz: looks like minifo might be trivial to fix - want me to see what I can do?11:21
mdzlamont_r: what's the story?11:31
lamont_rwell, if it's just a null pointer deref issue (like the oops says), it could just be a matter of a check, dunno until I look11:32
lamont_rfear any code that contains the comment: XXX ... this is wrong?11:35
T-Bonelamont_r: dude, I write that kind of code!11:36
=== T-Bone ducks
mdzlamont_r: before the oops, there is an assertion failure down in the mini_fo code11:41
mdzso I don't know what the root cause is11:41
mdzit shouldn't be passing a NULL up the stack11:41
lamont_rmdz: I'll dig into it some11:42
lamont_rcar done at the mechanics, heading back home in a few11:42
mdzlamont_r: ok, the localisation stuff is higher-priority though11:42
mdzI imagine it's more fixable, too11:42
lamont_rand I'll fix the rmdir -f issue, since it's in the same package, and equally trivial11:43
lamont_r(I fixed the locale issue by adding a chmod 644 after the locale-gen call11:43
lamont_rin theory, wifi drivers are in anything newer than the RC bits, but I have no hardware to verify11:44
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=== lamont_r finishes up with the mechanic and heads homeward.
lamont_rmdz: anything else before I flee?11:54
mdzlamont_r: new build with locales fixed later this afternoon?11:55
mdzif so, nothing else at the moment11:55
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