chrisaLast I heard, that was to keep the menu simple12:01
chrisaSame with gvim12:01
srbaker_hey, i saw vim-gnome for the first time the other day.12:04
srbaker_almost made an emacs convert out of me.12:04
chrisaDoes vim-gnome offer anything vim-gtk doesn't?12:04
srbaker_chrisa, i think dnd12:04
srbaker_and it must, it's a separate package12:04
mdzsabdfl: ^ :-)12:34
jdubmdz: re vim-* or menus?12:35
mdzjdub: distutils12:35
jdubhey, had a fucked up dream12:35
jdubwanted to fact check it12:35
sabdflsince i want python to be a first class citizen on ubuntu it seems bizarre to be in a scrap with the pythonistas12:37
mdzthe specifics of its function seem less important than the fact that they're part of the standard Python library12:37
jdubhow do you stop a user doing LD_PRELOAD?12:37
mdzupstream made an explicit decision on that, and started shipping distutils with the python croe12:37
sabdflmdz: we can't be beholden to someone else in that regard12:37
mdzjdub: stab them in the face?12:37
=== mdz whistles innocently
Kamionjdub: set-id executable?12:37
jdubok, what if you don't have anything sharp handy?12:37
sabdflthey build distutils because most platforms don't have python as a central feature12:37
mdzsabdfl: I don't see it that way; it's a matter of compatibility?12:37
Kamionjdub: otherwise, you don't12:37
sabdfli'm not saying we should not support the distutils interface12:37
jdubKamion: hrm.12:37
sabdflbut i think we should do so in a way that is integrated with dpkg12:37
sabdflwe have an excellent pkg management framework in dpkg12:40
mdzthat's a very complex, long-term sort of project12:40
=== Kamion thinks it's a bad idea to have dpkg installing stuff that doesn't come from a well-maintained archive, personally
mdzwhereas including distutils is simple, straghtforward, standard, compatible and useful today12:40
sabdflwhere does distutils stuff its files12:40
jdubKamion: i'm thinking LD_PRELOAD=ha-ha-gconf.so <locked-down-application>12:40
Kamionjdub: ayup12:40
sabdfljdub: you dreamt this?12:40
Kamionjdub: making stuff setgid <something-random> has been known12:40
jdubor worse, LD_PRELOAD=... gconfd12:40
mdzjdub: what's the use case exactly?12:40
jdubsabdfl: stfu!12:40
jdubmdz: getting around gconf lockdown.12:40
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sabdflbetween mdz's knee-jerk knifing and your dreams i think we all need a little time away from the keybd12:40
mdzjdub: what's gconf lockdown?12:40
jdubif lockdown was done in the backends, it probably wouldn't be an issue12:40
jdubmdz: you can set mandatory settings and so on with gconf12:40
sabdflmdz: preventing users from changing settings12:40
jdubmdz: see /etc/gconf/2/path12:40
Kamionbad idea> the worst corner case that comes to mind is file conflicts; we can't realistically ensure that all packages we ship properly conflict with all packages a hypothetical distutils-dpkg might make up on the fly when they share filenames12:40
Kamionjdub: is that actually used for security-critical purposes?12:40
sabdflkamion I'm not suggesting that distutils should make up a pkg on the fly12:40
jdubKamion: depends on how you'd define security critical, but i'd probably say no12:40
sabdflbut rather that it should try to find the correct .deb12:40
Kamionjdub: if it is, and if it runs entirely in a user's security boundary, whoever made it up was dreaming12:40
jdubKamion: it's just a barrier to doofusness12:40
mdzjdub: ok, looked at that12:40
Kamionsabdfl: ah, that would be a bit more palatable12:41
mdzjdub: but what is gconf lockdown? :-)12:41
sabdflKamion: slightly12:41
Kamionsabdfl: although it obviously only works as root, and I'm betting most real distutils use cases don't happen as root12:41
jdubmdz: keys can be locked to administrator provided-values12:41
mdzjdub: to what end?12:41
jdubmdz: so they become read-only and users can't change them12:41
sabdflhow can you write to  /usr/local/lib/python-<ver>/site-python unless you are root?12:41
Kamionsabdfl: (although it could say "alternatively, you could ask your administrator to install python-<foo>", I suppose)12:42
mdzjdub: to what higher purpose?12:42
Kamionsabdfl: surely distutils can write to somewhere in $HOME too?12:42
Kamionsabdfl: CPAN.pm can12:42
mdzsabdfl: you can't; installing software is a rootish sort of thing at present12:42
mdzdistutils and dpkg are not a very good match12:42
Kamionany sensible system like that allows users to install their own libraries12:42
jdubmdz: to "lock" "down" parts of the desktop so that users can't change them.12:42
mdzdistutils says "take this python module I wrote and put it into the system python catalog"12:42
jdubmdz: readonly configuration values means that the user can't make changes.12:42
mdzjdub: unless they really try hard12:43
=== Kamion -> party again
jdubsuch as LD_PRELOADing12:43
sabdfli think we can make a credible effort to ensure that every serious python lib is available as a deb12:43
mdzbut that isn't the same thing as distutils12:43
sabdfli'm willing to put the resources behind that12:43
Kamionjdub: or ptrace(3), or any number of other things12:43
mdzand I don't think it's a reason to make distutils a second-class citizen12:43
sabdflwell, our distutils should at least TRY to find the right deb12:44
Kamionjdub: non-set-id lockdown is just a dream12:44
mdzjdub: or any number of things12:44
mdzyou can't realistically prevent a user from changing a program12:44
sivangcan't distutils be packages and then used on will ?12:44
Kamionmmm, ptrace(2) rather12:44
jdubfwiw, python fascists love debian as their python-crack CPAN12:44
sabdflbecause it's much better for support for us to install a deb than something in /usr/local12:44
sabdfljdub: and we install a lot of those into desktop by default12:44
Kamionsabdfl: you only get that among people with total, utter Debian/Ubuntu buy-in12:45
mdzsabdfl: this seems like a separate issue to me12:45
mdzsabdfl: "should we split distutils from python proper" vs. "should we make distutils smarter"12:45
Kamionsabdfl: anybody in a heterogeneous environment, or even anyone who's ever administered machines in a heterogeneous environment, will I suspect end up with stuff in /usr/local12:45
sivangafter all, linux is about control. If someone is doing some funky /usr/local stuff, we might want to only warn him. BUt let him go with the changes.12:45
mdzI think "no" and "yes"12:45
sabdflso we could do both: ship distutils, and make it more ubuntu-aware12:46
mdzjdub: I can see that being useful for a site admin, to prevent users from accidentally shooting themselves in the foot12:46
Kamionsabdfl: that seems like the best of both worlds, yeah12:46
mdzbut it can't be realistic as a security feature12:46
sabdflok, so that's what we should do for hoary12:46
jdubmdz: not hard security, no12:46
sabdfli'll update the bug12:46
mdznot any kind of security12:46
sabdfldoes anyone else see a heisenbug with firefox refusing to take keyboard input?12:47
jdub(depends on your definition, and your audience)12:47
mdzsabdfl: the "smarter distutils" project would be a big one12:47
jdubin the mean time, i'm going to hassle havoc12:47
sabdflmdz: would it be particularly tricky?12:47
mdzsabdfl: distutils works from a tree of python stuffs12:48
mdzsabdfl: there would need to be an external mapping from that to debs12:48
mdzit can't realistically find the .deb given the information in the source tree12:48
mdzs/given/given only/12:48
sabdflright, there needs to be a db of debs that's part of the same package as distutils12:48
sabdfljust like the "install an app"12:48
sabdflmdz: why not?12:49
sivangbasically, the wish is for every modules to have a seperate package?12:49
mdzsabdfl: ok, so I unpack the python 'foo' module version 1.23 and run 'make install' which invokes distutils routines to install the stuff12:49
jdubmdz: (can we do this with the package post-processing foo we need for translations, embedded and installer?)12:50
mdzjdub: yes, it requires that sort of infrastructure12:50
mdzwhich is what makes it complex12:50
sabdflthing is, we want to promote python as an app language12:51
mdzalso, even with all of that, I think the best we can do (and remain sensible) is tell the user "hey, did you know you can get that as a .deb?" before doing what they asked12:51
mdzwe can't substitute a .deb behind their backs12:51
sabdflbut we dont want to end up in a situation where instlaling a big app results in tons of stuff in /usr/local which is *perfectly* packaged for ubuntu12:51
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jdub(there are also version considerations and so on, we might have too-new or too-old versions)12:52
mdzsabdfl: distutils is the sort of thing which is used in automated build systems12:52
sabdfljdub: md5sums12:52
mdzif the user has a python module, and they say "install this", and we sneak about and give them something else, that's evil12:53
sabdflhow does distutils handle conflicts, depends12:53
mdzit doesn't, afaik12:53
sabdflbut dpkg does12:53
mdzit's not a package management system12:53
mdzit's more like debhelper than dpkg12:53
mdzyou write a description of your project for it, and it puts everything in the right places for you12:54
sabdflmdz: agreed, not behind their back or silently, it should give them the option to install the deb12:54
mdzso when you have a Debian package of a python module, it uses distutils to do the real work12:54
mdz"make install" uses distutils12:54
sabdfl really? deb's of python libs use distutils?12:55
mdzthat's what it's for12:55
sabdflthen why is it not installed?12:55
mdzit's used at build time12:55
sabdflwe have a lot of debs of python libs installed12:55
mdznot at install time12:56
sabdflso the deb doesn't the deb0src does12:56
sivangmdz : does it unpack the source and run distutils against it?12:56
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hazmatthere are a few python gnome apps which use distutils for deployment01:01
hazmatalthough i'm not really clear how robust that is outside of default install locations01:02
hazmatlike revelation01:02
hazmatsince gnome apps tend to need lots of registration files in the proper location.. http://oss.codepoet.no/revelation/01:04
sivanghazmat : this is already used in ubuntu's current gnome installation?01:05
hazmatnot afaik01:05
hazmatmost of the python gnome apps tend to use the autoconf setups, which still reads like greek to me.. there are a few of those in ubuntu (like blog-applet, meld)01:07
sivanghazmat : if they were using distutils, they would have used a .py setup file for python foo.py install ?01:08
hazmatsivang, yes.. and you can pass in different installation roots to the install.. but its fairly aribtrary code in terms of how the actual install is performed, the degree of customization for distutils varies greatly from systems like 4suite and scipy which are basically running their own distutils.. but the toplevel commands are typically the same. ie python setup.py install 01:09
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sivanghazmat : so when you install scipy from source, it would use the "standard" distutils format, and as a side effect mangle with /usr/local etc?01:16
srbaker_grr.  is there a graphical tool for editing runlevels?01:17
srbaker_i want to stop raid, evms, lvm, etc.01:17
__danielsrbaker_, i'm not quite sure, if i told _you_, but there's  update-rc.d  you could use on them01:18
srbaker_i know about update-rc.d.  i wanted a gnome app to recommend to a friend.01:19
srbaker_so i'm trying to figure out gui ways to do things01:19
srbaker_there.  boot time should be short now01:24
srbaker_is there a place to register ubuntu repositories?01:32
srbaker_like apt-get.org, only for ubuntu?01:32
srbaker_i'm going to be packaging ifolder, simias, addressbook, spamtrainer, and tomboy01:33
ctalkepwhat is tomboy?01:36
srbaker_uh "Wiki for your Panel"01:36
srbaker_it's a sticky note app with linking capabilities, basically01:36
ctalkepsounds nice01:37
ctalkepwhere do i get it?01:37
jdubsrbaker_: tomboy is already done, ifolder and friends are on their way01:38
srbaker_see edd dumbill's log01:38
srbaker_jdub, oh.  nice.  where will i be able to find those?01:38
jdubtseng's repo for tomboy01:38
jdubmine will have ifolder and friends01:38
ctalkepand what are ifolder and friends?01:39
srbaker_are you doing for debian, too?01:39
srbaker_oh, excellent01:39
jdubsomeone else has itp'ed it though01:40
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__danielKamion, still around - booshi in #ubuntu also experienced #1566 - if you need more input on the bug...02:54
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sgtshattaanyone here?03:18
sgtshattai have a simple question?03:19
sid77don't know, have you? ;)03:20
Keybuksgtshatta: is it development related?03:20
sgtshattaactually no!03:20
sgtshattai am a new user to ubuntu 03:20
Keybukah, you may find #ubuntu a far better place to ask it -- there's more people there with a much wider experience and you're more likely to get a useful answer03:20
sgtshattathank you much03:21
Keybukthis is where we talk about what patches are going in the libc6 of the next release, etc.03:21
Keybukit's also best to simply ask your question, and wait for the answer; rather than asking to ask a question :)03:21
sgtshattaquite tru03:23
sgtshattai change my $PATH in /etc/profile system wide after reboot it did not change03:24
Keybukdidn't change for what?03:25
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sgtshattawell I am trying to compile a piece of software from source and it requires some libraries from /usr/lib03:26
sgtshattaand i made some changes to my $PATH to point to it but it did not locate /usr/lib/pkgconfig03:26
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Keybukit wouldn't03:27
Keybuk/usr/lib/pkgconfig is a directory03:27
Keybukit's looking for /usr/bin/pkg-config03:27
sgtshattaI know its a directory but why did my environmental path not change03:27
Keybukand that will definitely be in your $PATH, unless your system is insane and dribbling out of the ears03:27
Keybukabout a thousand reasons03:27
Keybukmostly boiling down to most things don't read /etc/profile03:28
sid77what about playib with configure options?03:28
sgtshattaget it right03:28
sid77p l a y i n g03:28
sgtshattakeybuk: but from what this software is i wont need to mess with the config options03:29
sid77maybe using something like "./configure --pkg-path=..."03:29
Keybuk/etc/profile is only read for interactive login bourne-compatible shells03:29
Keybukor, in english, it's only read if you login on the text-mode console03:29
sid77(option invented right now)03:29
Keybuk(and I really expect you're not doing that, and are just opening a graphical Terminal)03:29
sgtshattayou're right but i did all that 03:30
Keybukwhat's not getting located?03:30
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sgtshattaI am trying to install my favorite video player03:30
mojo_hi there03:30
sid77oh, wait03:31
Keybukdo you have the libxine-dev package installed?03:31
sid77I've had same problem loong ago03:31
mojo_Anyone here reponsible for FireFox build?03:31
sgtshattano i dont have libxine-dev installed03:31
sgtshattai dloaded the source from the site03:31
Keybuksgtshatta: install libxine-dev :o)03:31
mojo_I want the Ubuntu mozconfig for some experimental tweak03:31
sgtshattacan i use apt-get to do that?03:31
Keybukmojo_: apt-get source mozilla-firefox03:31
sid77sgtshatta, and remember ldconfig after that!03:31
sgtshattayea i know ldconfig03:32
Keybuksgtshatta: aptitude install libxine-dev  will give you the xine development library03:32
sgtshattakeybuk: give me that syntax again??03:32
mojo_does the src pkg from our repository contain mozconfig (for Unbuntu build)???03:32
sgtshattakeybuk: that worked kool 03:33
Keybukmojo_: if mozconfig is important to build mozilla-firefox, I would expect so03:33
mojo_Keybuk, you've seen pitti, bob2 around?03:36
KeybukI expect they're both doing Saturday things03:37
Keybukbob2, Sunday morning things03:37
mojo_maybe, damm too tired for whole months, now I can relax a bit03:39
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__danielgood night03:51
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fabbionemorning guys05:26
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hornbecktseng: what is the chance of a gecko-sharp-0.6 package soon?05:49
tsengwhat for?05:49
hornbeckso I can try the new blam05:49
hornbeckit uses gecko for rendering05:49
hornbeckI guess I could just learn to package it myself huh :-)05:50
tsengmaybe later06:01
tsengnot today mater06:01
hornbeckI am working on it06:04
hornbeckit is not something that everyone would need right now, so I might as well learn06:04
hornbeckgoodnight guys06:27
srbaker_totem in ubuntu is totem-gstreamer?06:43
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mdzsrbaker_: yes06:50
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tuo2Gah. Why do people insist on saying that Firefox is "more secure"? It's a tenuous claim, at best.... 07:07
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sivangmorning all07:15
fabbionemorning sivang 07:26
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sivanghey fabbione, how's xorg going?07:32
fabbionesivang: it's going :-)07:33
fabbionei am breaking the libraries right now07:33
fabbionethe real problem is not building it07:33
fabbioneit's do in such a way that you can actually upgrade from Xfree86 to X.org07:33
sivanghmmm..interesting. Can't a way be found to do something like (in the upgrade process) to remove xfree's file and install xorg's ones?07:36
fabbionesivang: that what needs to be done :-)07:37
fabbionethere is one way only07:37
fabbionebut it needs to be done very carefully07:38
fabbioneand that requires a lot of upgrade tests07:38
sivangfabbione : well, just let me know what you need :)07:40
fabbionesivang: as soon as there is something more concrete to work on.. be sure i will call you07:42
fabbioneyou are the first name in my list of bitches^Wpeople that can help ;)07:42
fabbionehey lamont 07:45
=== lamont falls into bed
fabbionegood night :)07:49
sivangfabbione : Well, that way I'll buy myself some treats in this jail :)07:59
sivangnight lamont08:00
sivangit's been a rough one I guess?08:00
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mdztuo2: because they compare it to IE :-)08:38
tuo2mdz: I just see people seeing themselves up for a fall, that's all. I mean, it's the fanboys who worry me...08:39
tuo2making claims that they have no understanding of.08:39
=== tuo2 mehs.
tuo2mdz: any news on the security team yet?08:42
=== tuo2 still hasn't seen any movement on the website...
mdztuo2: you mean, apart from the two advisories posted on the website today? ;-)08:45
tuo2mdz: ?08:46
tuo2ah, sweet.08:47
tuo2mdz: I was more talking about this...http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/teams/security08:47
=== sivang is also interested on info about security team
mdzI didn't even know that page existed until now08:49
mdzso obviously I haven't been updating it :-)08:49
tuo2mdz: heh.08:49
fabbionehey mdz08:50
mdzfabbione: morning08:50
tuo2that might explain things.. I asked about this a couple of weeks ago (was in volunteering mood) and was told to watch that space..08:50
fabbionemdz: i didn't see any announcment about the new wiki08:50
mdzfabbione: I think it went to -doc08:50
fabbionedo we have a -doc mailing list?08:50
sivangwe are currently using -devel with [doc]  tag08:51
mdzfabbione: yes we do08:51
mdzsivang: no, please use the -doc list now08:51
=== fabbione sighs
sivangwhen that did happen? :)08:51
=== mdz mails -devel
fabbioneguys we need to post this stuff in like -announce or -news08:51
mdzsivang: yesterday08:51
fabbioneotherwise it gets lost in the noise08:52
mdz-devel is fine for this08:52
=== sivang feels lagged
sivangFunny, I checked the mailing lists yesterday, wiki etc. Didn't see no evidence to it08:52
sivangmdz : you set it up? Enrico?08:52
sivangI'll rush up alos to update the wiki page of DocTeam08:53
sivangmdz : it started getting high traffic ? :)08:54
fabbionemdz: did we get automatically subscribed?08:55
mdzfabbione: no one was automatically subscribed08:56
sivangwas this discussed over the weekend?08:57
mdznot really; it was just time for a new list08:57
fabbioneuff it's time to start to work in the house09:02
fabbioneah mdz: is the old wiki completely imported into the new one?09:03
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=== fabbione goes away
mdzfabbione: not entirely09:14
jdubmdz: warty-updates + warty-security -> we're keeping with that split?09:16
mdzjdub: yes, unless there's a compelling reason to do it differently09:33
mdzjdub: practically _everyone_ wants security fixes, but some folks are conservative enough not to want non-security fixes09:38
mdzfor example, we're likely to put a kernel into warty-updates with some bugfixes09:38
mdzjdub: the merging aspect will suck (package in -updates + new package in -security requires a merge for a new -updates package)09:44
mdzbut hct will ease that when it comes09:44
mdzwe probably won't put very much into -updates in the near future09:45
mdzso far the only candidate is #181409:46
jdubthere's an evolution-exchange bug i'd like to see fixed in -updates, though09:46
jdubhrm, don't think it's in our bugtracker09:46
mdzwe should have a representation for that in bugzilla09:46
mdzi.e., which items should be considered for -updates09:46
mdzbedtime now, though09:47
jdubperhaps target wartywarthog, severity critical09:48
sivangwhen pages are going to be migrated to the new wiki?10:42
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__danielgood morning10:44
sivangmorning __daniel10:45
__danielhai sivang :-)10:46
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__daniel*grmbl* what do i do on "Language ar_EG.UTF-8 doesn't exist, using system default."?11:32
sivang__daniel : this should be asked on #ubuntu, but you'd probably do "sudo dpkg-reconfigure locales"11:32
sivangcheck the local you want to have, and let it be generated.11:32
__danielsivang, that's what i did before11:32
sivang__daniel : you also chose it to be the system default?11:32
__danielsivang, no, that's not needed11:33
__danielsivang, other locales like nl_NL.UTF-8 worked nice without being the system default11:34
sivang__daniel : were you getting some sort of an error?11:34
__daniel"Language ar_EG.UTF-8 doesn't exist, using system default." when i chose it in gdm and logged in11:36
__danielthe guys in #arabeyes are clueless too (but they told me ar_EG was the arabic "best guess")11:36
sivangmaybe it's just missing11:39
__danielsivang, that would be very strange, because i got it with *all* ar_* locales11:39
sivanglemme check myself 11:39
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sivang__daniel : here?11:46
__danielsivang, yes11:46
sivang__daniel : It works perefectly. Arab letters had never seen so beautiful before :)11:46
__danieldo i have to modify /etc/gdm/local.alias or something to make it map "ar_EG.utf8"?11:46
__daniel*DAMN* i want to have that too11:46
sivangArabic(Egypt)   ar_EG11:46
sivangArabic(Egypt)   ar_EG.UTF-811:46
sivangthis what I Have on  /etc/gdm/local.alias11:46
sivangthat is UTF8 , caps11:46
sivangUTF-8 that is, sorry11:46
__danielsivang, i have that one too11:46
__danielvery very strange11:46
sivang__daniel : that might be a bug, but could you try again the dpkg magic thingy? :)11:46
__danielsivang, dpkg magic thingie?11:46
sivang__daniel : I asked it to create egyptian UTF8 arabic, and didn't set it to default11:46
sivang__daniel : sudo dpkg-reconfigure locales11:47
__danielsivang i tried it a dozen times :-)11:49
__danieland restarted gdm and everything11:49
__danielhmmm, don't know how i could have screwed this up11:49
sivang__daniel : hmm, I didn't even do a restart. let's move this to #ubuntu, shall we?11:49
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azeemso I installed warty on my parent's computer two weeks ago.11:57
azeemMy dad used to bitch around how I should install Windows again on their computer all the time11:57
azeemyesterday, he asked me to install Ubuntu next to Windows on his new notebook :)11:58
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azeemamu: who of you credativ guys is coming to LWE?12:41
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bob2hm, how come tomboy includes a .so?12:45
bob2isn't it written in C#?12:45
magnonthere's some c code in there as well12:47
bob2tseng: your romboy packages are missing build-deps on gdk-2.0 and atk-2.012:47
bob2er, just atk12:47
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azeemgah, stupid irssi tab-completion for /leave12:52
azeemI was in #ubuntu, typed /leave #ubun<tab><return> and it completed to #ubuntu-devel for some weird reason12:53
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amuhehe SUSE-Linux-9.2-LiveCD-Gnome.iso 01:13
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amusomeone run a sip phone?01:44
bob2tseng: and libgtkspell-dev 02:05
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hornbeckmdz: you around?02:42
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Micksaam I allowed on here? :)02:44
hornbeckwhy not?02:45
Micksawell I'm not an ubuntu developer02:45
MicksaI like to lurk :)02:45
bob2just remember it's a development channel, nota user support one02:45
Micksayeah, I know the drill :)02:45
Micksabob2: did you used to hang out in #debian-devel?02:46
bob2still do02:46
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:Keybuk] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion and support on #ubuntu | Happy Hoary Trail! | BE THE SIGNAL | Warty release is DONE | Hoary kickoff meeting Monday, 2004-10-25 1600UTC
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plovshornbeck, sivang, hi!02:53
sivanghey plovs, what's up?02:53
hornbeckhey plovs02:53
hornbeckanother day huh?02:53
aswhornbeck, plovs, sivang -- hi all! 02:53
hornbeckhello asw02:53
sivanghey asw02:53
plovssivang, hornbeck, asw, spare time! time for wiki!02:54
sivangplovs : you mean the new wiki?02:54
hornbeckplovs: do we start adding things before it get migrated?02:54
hornbeckreStructuredText is sexy02:54
aswI've been reading the new list, watching the move to the Plone Wiki but I also shipped my PHD thesis proposal last night (the "official" draft goes out tomorrow).  Sorry I've been out of touch... 02:54
hornbeckasw: congrats02:55
=== hornbeck still has no bachlors
plovshornbeck, yes, maybe start with DocTeam stuff, i want to write a reStructuredText, document02:55
aswso, please, explain.  reStructuredText is not docBook? right?  So what formats can we export to from plone?02:55
plovsasw, congrats as well02:56
sivangwhy don't we start discussions on the new list? so not to leave things off to IRC and get lost, as it already did? I only missed 2 days and already I feel the world has turned over02:56
sivangTHis is not benefitting us02:56
hornbeckasw: I am not sure what we can export to02:56
aswhornbeck. I dropped out of school at 20. (admittedly ten+ years later) I have a bsc and (very soon?) will have an msc in CS and phd in biophysics (eventually.) 02:56
hornbeckasw: nice02:57
hornbeckhow are you now?02:57
hornbecknice, I still have hope02:57
aswsivang: i agree we don't want to write too much in here. 02:57
=== hornbeck is 24
aswI've asked before about logs. I think there are some logs floating around that we can probably get access to. 02:58
aswNow that I've started using IRC I guess it isn't so bad.  02:58
sivangasw : it was very odd finding out we *already* have a doc list, we're *moving* to antoher wiki system , the doc team is starting it's *own* distro.. :)02:58
hornbeckthe problem with irc is people have to sleep and most of us are in different parts of the world02:58
plovssivang, agreed, maybe drop more logs on the wiki as well?02:59
aswsivang: we have our *own* distro.  OK that's news to me. 02:59
plovssivang, although the rest was  for me surprise as well02:59
hornbeckasw: I hope he was joking on that02:59
sivangasw : I was joking.02:59
hornbeckit was suprise for all of us02:59
bob2if you guys want to get serious discussion going, you have to do it on the lists02:59
sivangasw : just to stress out the problematic aspect of doing stuff that way.03:00
aswplovs (thanks for the congrats btw.)  sivang: laughing03:00
bob2even if you just post summaries of stuff you come up with on IRC, you need list discussion03:00
aswsilly question but how do I make an "aside" as I see people doing.03:00
=== bob2 makes an aside
plovsasw, /me aside03:00
bob2asw: like that?03:00
sivangyeah, just like the devels doing it. You would never spot here one of them discussion anything but late minute important stuff mostly :)03:00
hornbeckbob2: that seems like a problem with us right now03:00
sivangsummeries would be just as bed03:00
hornbeckasw: use slash action03:01
sivangpeople need time to think things, comment and respond properly etc03:01
sivangwe *must* move to the list.03:01
bob2hornbeck: plus IRC is more ephemeral, and doesn't get archived. and people tend to not think things through so much.03:01
hornbeckbob2: but its so much more fun in here :-)03:01
plovslet's agree on putting important stuff to the list, but irc is *nicer*03:01
sivangI just can't bare in mind that I will work on something  off the road, won't be on IRC for a day or 2 03:01
sivangand then it would be decided that this work altogether is redundent03:02
sivangwhich could happen,03:02
hornbecksivang: not on irc for a day or two 03:02
=== asw asw makes an aside
sivangas things are currently managed.03:02
=== plovs congretulates asw
hornbeckasw it puts your name right away03:02
hornbeckso //action makes an aside03:02
hornbeckwith one /03:03
=== asw light shines over sasha's head
hornbeckirc elite03:03
hornbeckso how about as we talk, we write ideas in mails than mail them, than we tell each other that we mailed than we can go and remail each other,03:04
sivangI do not intend to scare anybody off from doing work, this is not the intent. I'd just like to see things discussed on the list before hand, documentation should be of no difference from development.03:04
sivanggiven they are slightly more than cosmetic changes.03:04
plovssivang, although we should the wiki as well, just have a docteam page for *current* discussions03:04
bob2discussion *on* the wiki?03:06
=== bob2 ew ew ew ews
aswsivang (others) I use gmail and let it help me search the ubuntu traffic.  I've left XChat open so I can load the logs in emacs and search.  I have most IRC logs since our doc-meeting and I expect somebody at Canonical has full logs we could access if it helps. (In addition do doing more list discussion, naturally)03:06
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sivangasw : well, has has (mako) however when dicussing things on a mailing list, one does care to make things more readable and understandable, making it more easy to catch up by other people who weren't online on IRC or were not into the mindset that a specific conversation was in.03:07
=== asw sasha wants to keep using IRC now that he is e - l - i - t - e (This just reminds me too much of being 17 and I really liked that age actually.)
Gmaildo any of the devel want so of the port from debian .debs i will be working on?03:07
Gmaillike i will port the latest gaim, xchat, firefox.... internet programs03:08
sivangasw : I think it's no wonder most of the real development stuff is discussed on mailing lists, take for example, GNOME, KDE, Debian etc03:08
aswsivang: yeah, I totally agree that people should not hav eto wade through IRC logs to get essential details of what's going on! 03:08
bob2Gmail: hoary will have them soon enough03:08
Gmaili am talking about porting them to warty03:09
sivangasw : keeping current with stuff should be easy, not a pain in the arse :) (my idea about searching through 3 days, few megs irc logs)03:09
plovssivang, asw, *essential* stuff should be on the list (esp. now we have a real one) 03:09
bob2Gmail: you can do whatever you want, but they will not go into warty03:09
aswsivang: agreed re. *essential* stuff.  It is interesting, however, "meeting" you guys in IRC. 03:10
Gmailbob2: not *offical*03:10
=== asw Sasha goes to read [doc] and the new list...
Gmailbob2: not *offically*03:10
bob2Gmail: then host them in your own web space03:10
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Gmailbut i want to know if i should backport from hoary or port them from debian03:11
sivangasw : Ofcourse it is, and I persoanlly really like it, but it's more suitable for stuff like "do you remembner the docbook tag for header" then "Let's decide to open a new mailing list" , do you get my point?03:11
bob2Gmail: hoary doesn't exist.03:11
bob2sivang: that is the dynamic a lot of projects end up with...little reminders, questions, etc happen on IRC, but the big discussion ahappens on the list so everyon can contribute.03:12
plovssivang, i don't think that was a docteam decision, was it?03:12
sivangplovs : I was using it as an example. yes, I think not :)03:13
sivangbob2 : agreed03:13
Gmailbob2: yet i am talking about when it comes out03:13
sivangwe cannot expect each and every interested doc contributor to be online, some of them maybe expecting the list to be just as informative in the essential matters as IRC might be.03:14
sivang(*online all the time)03:14
aswbob2: actually, I follow lists extremely carefully and have done so for ten+ years.  Until I found IRC I never really felt "part of the process".  It's quite a dramatic difference actually.   03:14
bob2Gmail: when it comes out those packages will already exist in hoary, and backporting will be trivial...regardless, it's a discussion that can wait until hoary exists.03:14
bob2asw: oh, yes, it's very good for team building03:14
sivangwhat about the proposed doc sounder team? we could use the mailing list also to announce new documentation for testing etc..03:14
plovshornbeck, good mail, who is on the docteam etc... but ubuntu moves so fast it is hard on everybody, and the new wiki was a surprise for everybody i suppose, although it was expected03:15
bob2asw: and to get to know people outside the strict technical forum of a list03:15
bob2asw: they're definitely complimentary03:15
aswSo who has seen http://www.pastebin.com03:15
Gmailbob2: so i should just port from debian03:15
Gmailok thanks03:15
bob2Gmail: hoary doesn't exist, so where else would do it from?03:16
hornbeckplovs: write that to the list03:16
sivangI agree with bob2, these are very good for getting to know each other and etc, and also if we are to decided things using this wonderful medium, we ought to make it a meeting , and announce it as wide as we can to maximize participation03:16
hornbeckplovs: thanks though, I thought it was a good mail03:16
hornbecksivang: read your mail03:16
Gmailbob2: i am talking about in a few weeks whn hoary work will start03:17
sivangsure thing :)03:17
hornbeckgmail: do it if you want03:17
bob2Gmail: then practice your backporting skills and make a decision later03:17
hornbeckgmail: no one will tell you not to but it will not be included in warty, you will have to dipench them yourself03:17
=== hornbeck 's ability to spell does not exist
plovshornbeck, that's what spellcheckers are for :)03:18
Gmailhornbeck: but my package will *work* with warty that what i am tring to say03:19
sivangif we are going to put irc logs, they need to be summrized to include the essentials, so to ease finding the really important stuff03:19
plovsthe only thing i think we should do is make a new docteam page on the new wiki, and a new intro to the wiki03:19
sivangnot just put them there :)03:19
sivangplovs : I think we should wait with this until we are appointed a leader03:20
plovssivang, agreed, under docteam a page called CurrentIssues or something, with notes from the logs. If st is important enough for that page it should also be in te mailinglist03:21
sivangHas anyone has anything to say about the documentation proposal by Enrico? I think it's very good, has anyone else seen it on -devel?03:21
Gmailjust an idea for ubuntu: make in the boot up thing you are doing alt+f-lock's f1 == alt+f1, i was on a friends computer which he had a m$ kerboard and it was hell because his power went out every 5min and i had some console work to do03:21
=== sivang was wondering why nobody commented on that.
plovssivang, so who appints, mark?03:22
sivangplovs : I believe so.03:22
plovssivang, i humbly disagree, let's get writing, later when we have a formal team-leader, he can sort it out, we need pages, not politics, the politics will follow, they always do.03:23
hornbeckgmail: it will not be included because new things like that are for hoary not warty, but you are free to host them yourself and distibute them03:23
hornbecksivang: I just resent all of enrico's writeups to -doc03:24
Gmailis it possible to tern on f-lock if its off by default because you are using a fscked up keyboard03:24
hornbeckplovs: I agree to the lets write.03:24
Gmailhornbeck: I SAID: it will work *with* warty and not be part of offically03:25
hornbeckplovs: I however and being careful because I don't want to step in and start writing knowing that the wiki will start merging soon03:25
plovshornbeck, off course i partly agree with sivang as well, i just don't like sitting around03:25
hornbeckgmail: please don't yell03:25
bob2Gmail: chill out.03:25
bob2Gmail: if you want to get an answer about your backports, ask on the list.03:25
hornbeckplovs: I hate sitting and it makes me think of working with other stuff than I get interested in them and lose site03:25
sivangplovs : I agree to leave behind the politics, however without the even most basic preparation and planning, we would end up with a bunch of pages, each one understandable only to the author , without an apparent way to sort out, to index, something that could cause an immesne turn of on a user trying to just get help03:26
=== hornbeck has add
sivangplovs : I think we are already at this point :(03:26
plovshornbeck, some pages will need to change like restrucyredtexthowto03:26
aswplovs: it's certainly true about the politics.  All, sorry if I've talked too much about my PHD etc but it's rather pressing on my mind since if all goes well on Nov. 1st when I present my proposal I can have a year of full-time paid work that, in part, can go into ubuntu.   Personally, as one of the people that was interested in the moin->docbook gateway. I'm now intersted in ReStructuredText since we seem to have switched away from Doc03:26
aswBook to that. (I'm actually all for the idea in principle I just don't have any clude about ReStructuredText in practice.)  Anyway, this is a long message. I should go prepare for my proposal.  I'm following the lists. It's -really- nice meeting you all online.03:26
Gmailsorry i terned on caps lock by mistake as caps is under caps and saw and terned it off and wasnt bother to retype it all03:26
hornbeckplovs: I know, but there is no reason to cause more work for myself, so I am going to wait a day03:27
bob2Gmail: just chill in general.03:27
sivangI think waiting until next CC meeting is fine03:27
=== Gmail 9is chilly
=== Gmail 's blood temp is 36c
plovshornbeck, ok, i continue with https://site-edit.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/QuickreStructuredText, feel free to comment on it, this page we will need anyway03:28
sivanghas anyone decided to drop docbook for us?03:28
hornbeckplovs: feel free to do what ever03:28
hornbecksivang: no docbook has not been dropped03:28
hornbeckreStructuredText is for the new wiki03:28
=== sivang just feared another important decision has been yet *already* made :)
hornbeckdocbook is how we write offline docs03:29
plovshornbeck, i thought you were team leader?03:29
=== plovs reading the mail again
hornbeckplovs: no, I am not the teamleader03:29
sivangso investigations were made and we cannot have a docbook eating Plone?03:29
=== hornbeck hopes he did not write that wrong in the mailing
hornbecksivang: I am not sure03:30
sivanghornbeck : do you know who's the contact for that matter?03:30
hornbecksivang: right now no.03:30
bob2sivang: restructuredtext to docbook?03:31
bob2that can't happen automatically, docbook is a lot richer03:32
sivangbob2 : I was more thinking of the other way around03:32
bob2sivang: hm......sounds like an interesting project03:32
plovssivang, bradb and lulu are doing plone stuff03:32
sivangwrite once, publish anywhere ? :)03:32
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sivangI see. Well, are they on IRC?03:33
hornbecksparkes hello03:33
sparkeshi again hornbeck 03:33
plovssivang, they should be on irc monday03:34
hornbecksparkes: meet plovs, and sivang03:34
hornbecktwo other doc guys03:34
sivangplovs : where do you know all this from?03:34
hornbecksivang: plovs, spends alot of time in here :-)03:34
plovssivang, they got tired of me yesterday, asking plone questions03:34
sivangI see03:34
aswbob2: reStructuredText->docbook is in progress according to: http://docutils.sourceforge.net/index.html03:34
plovsreStructuredText->docbook would be *very* nice03:35
hornbeckyes it would03:35
hornbeckcut down on alot of work03:35
hornbeckbrb, wife just woke up03:35
plovshow is it going with the yelp stuff?03:35
hornbeckbabies eating so I have a few03:36
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sivanghey sparkes 03:40
sparkeshey sivang, everyone else03:40
sivangso what else has been going on? I'd like to get myself current on latest affairs03:43
sivang(docteam wise)03:43
plovssparkes, hi, nice to see you, and i agree with your mail03:43
hornbecksivang: there is not really much else03:43
sivangok then.03:44
plovssivang, 1) surprised by plone-wiki 2) surprised by mailinglist03:44
sparkesplovs, which mail?03:44
sparkesthe nomination? ;-)03:44
plovssparkes, yes, if hornbeck is the ad hoc leader well, so be it until further notice, later we can vote or have sb appointed, but that is just my opinion03:45
sparkesplovs, so that's a second03:46
sparkeshornbeck, you're it ;-)03:46
hornbeckplovs, sparkes: I will wait for sabdfl/mdz/jdub to do the appointing.  I don't want to step on any toes.03:46
sivangguys, havn't we just dicussed that such important decision should be made in the mailing list or in a CC meeting?03:46
bob2do you guys have plone accounts yet?03:46
hornbeckThanks though, I am honered03:46
hornbeckbob2: For the new wiki, yes03:47
bob2ah, cool03:47
sivangbesides, I think it's on Ubuntu Governence RUles that team leader get appointed only by CC meetings03:47
hornbeckat least some of us do03:47
sparkesbob2, nope03:47
hornbecksparkes: in due time you will03:47
tsengbob2: you are wrong about libgtkspell-dev03:48
hornbecksivang, plovs, sparkes: I think this should all be discussed at the CC meeting so could someone add something to the Agenda for it03:48
bob2tseng: it wouldn't build until I installed it03:48
plovssivang, agree,agree, just voicing opinion, not making policy03:48
tsengbob2:  libgtkspell-dev (>= 2.0.5),03:48
sparkeshornbeck, true03:49
sivangAnd I hope hornbeck won't resent me in the future just for making those observations..:)03:49
bob2tseng: hmmm03:49
plovssivang, balance of power is always healthy03:49
bob2tseng: ok, sorryy; I see it in the control file, but debuild didn't complain03:50
sivanghornbeck : I just want things to be done properly. Or else we would end up on an isolated island, doing everything on our own, without noticing we're missing the point :)03:50
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tsengbob2: did you apt-get build-dep tomboy?03:51
bob2tseng: no, but debuild should complain about missing build-deps03:51
tsengthen i blame debuild03:52
tsengi dont see a syntax error03:52
=== sid77 saluta
sid77sotty 'bout that03:53
tsenglintian doesnt mind it either03:54
bob2how odd03:55
bob2dpkg-checkbuilddeps doesn't complain when I remove libgtkspell-dev03:55
azeemis there a way to display the devices during the installer? lspci does not seem to be around03:57
hornbecksivang: I agree completely03:58
hornbecksivang, plovs, asw, sparkes: I am going to spend some time with the family right now so I will be away for awhile.03:58
sivanghornbeck : why thank you. feew, I feared for you silenting suddenly :)03:59
sparkeshornbeck, see you later03:59
sivanghornbeck : c'ya laterz then03:59
bob2tseng: was I right about the other two?03:59
sparkesI am about to head off out with my son as well03:59
hornbeckwell I guess I am not leaving afterall03:59
hornbeckmy little girl is going back to bed :-)03:59
hornbecksivang: I was silent because I was talking with the wife04:00
sivanghornbeck : ok cool ;)04:00
hornbecksivang: I don't want anyone appointing anyone with out CC approval or at least a higher up saying so04:01
sivangofcourse. I am adding to the CC agenda as we speak04:01
plovssivang, link?04:04
sivangplovs : sec, still revising it04:04
hornbeckif random letters start appearing from me sorry, I have a six month old on my lap04:08
plovshornbeck, we'l think it's haiku wisdom04:10
hornbeckyes, please do04:10
hornbecksivang: looks great04:14
sivanghornbeck : thanks :) I'm glad you're ok with that.04:15
hornbecksivang: why would I not be?04:15
=== plovs forwarded it to the list
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sivanghornbeck : Just my paranoic, "I hope everyone is ok with what I'm doing"  self :))04:16
hornbeckplovs: good thinking04:16
tsenghornbeck: have you done any beagle packaging, or just a howto?04:16
hornbecktseng: I am still not to sure on packaging04:17
sivanganyway guys, I have to go now, I'll see you tonight or tommorow maybe..04:17
hornbecktseng: so just the howto04:17
hornbeckI would love to learn to package04:17
tsengoh sure04:17
tsenggoogle debian new maint guide04:17
hornbecksivang: later04:17
hornbecktseng: I have it bookmarked, just have not really had the time to read all of it04:18
hornbeckkinda long04:18
tsengi suppose.04:18
hornbeckI did make a inotify kernel package :-)04:18
plovswe need debian packaging in three easy steps, that would be nice04:18
tsenghehe make-kpkg04:18
hornbecka couple people said it worked04:18
hornbecktseng: I was proud04:19
tsenghm yeah.. i think a simple template will just work for many autotooled apps?04:19
hornbecktseng: as I move along I would like to move more into the developer stage of things04:20
tsengi think thom already has dbus-cvs04:20
hornbecknice, I need to get ahold of a copy than04:20
hornbeckI have mine all rigged up04:20
hornbeckheh, I already have that in my sources04:21
tsenginotify will hopefully make 2.6.1004:21
hornbeckI am hoping04:21
tsengand just happen in Hoary04:21
hornbeckbeagle is nice04:22
hornbeckI use best to find all the stuff I look for now04:22
tsengis there a workable beagle release tarball04:22
tsengor just cvs?04:22
hornbeckI think just cvs04:22
tsenghm that sucks a bit04:22
hornbeckcvs has all the new stuff, the only tarball I know of is way outdated04:22
hornbeckI could tar the cvs for ya :-)04:23
tsengwell just trying to figure out a way around autogen.sh04:24
hornbeckhow come?04:24
=== hornbeck might learn something here so he opens tomboy for notes
tsengwell, ive been using cdbs templates for pkgs04:25
tsengand they call ./configure04:25
hornbeckwell I could send you a already ./autogen'ed package or would that not work?04:25
tsengand iirc overriding a cdbs function adds your stuff to the end04:26
tsengpossibly, i guess if its already autogen'd you can just run a clean configure again04:26
tsengi can checkout cvs and do that myself.04:26
bob2beagle requires dbus cvs, too04:28
tsengwe've been over that04:28
bob2ah, right04:29
tseng"let's build us some beagle shall we?"04:29
hornbecktseng: let me know how it goes04:30
hornbeckcause beagle is just so sexy04:30
tsenghm so what is the cvs naming scheme04:30
tsengim looking at dbus+cvs and i dont grok the string04:30
tsengno, for packages.04:30
hornbeckI found no dbus-cvs04:31
hornbeckit is just dbus04:31
hornbeckwell I am going to make some food, be back in a few04:32
danielsKamion: alright, thanks for the insights04:33
tsengmorn daniels 04:34
tsengcould anyone point me to a debian cvs snapshot policy04:34
tsenghm found.04:35
bob2"don't do it (except in experimental)"04:35
bob2oh, version04:36
tsengwell that goes without saying04:36
bob2hm, tomboy built fine on ppc04:36
bob2do you want the .deb to put in your repository?04:36
Kamionthe policy manual's bit about version numbers would be the obvious place04:36
tsengbob2: sure04:36
Kamionsection 3.2.104:36
tsengbob2: mxpxpod already sent me muine and something else04:36
bob2for ppc/04:36
tsengKamion: ya just found, thanks.04:36
tsengyes for ppc04:36
bob2hm, didn't see them in your archive04:37
tsengah i have tomboy04:37
tsengbob2: didnt upload yet04:37
bob2ah, ok04:37
tsengi can throw ppc in the same dir, right?04:37
tsengbob2: try an update for muine + tomboy04:39
bob2they can go in the same dir, just remember to rerun your Package-generation tool04:40
bob2cool, thanks!04:40
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tsengso those dbus+cvs are either not recent enough, or just dont have dbus# bindings05:09
hornbeckthat is what I ran into I think05:09
hornbeckso I just build dbus from cvs05:09
tsengok i will start with that05:09
hornbeckgood deal05:09
hornbeckman it sucks to have to use windows for stuff, I had not installed windows on one of my computers in three years05:10
hornbeckand last night had to for school05:10
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mainlylinuxhi azeem05:40
mainlylinuxI'll move my questions here05:40
mainlylinuxcan we make ntpupdate go into the background once it's called?05:41
mainlylinuxoops ntpdate05:41
mainlylinuxand call S99gpm sooner in the boot process?05:41
mainlylinuxam I right that there is no fat32 support in the default kernel?05:42
KamionI don't think you're right there, no05:42
mainlylinuxI tried to mount -t fat32 and got an error - should I just be using mount -t fat?05:43
Kamionfat32 isn't listed in mount(8) as far as I can see05:43
mainlylinuxgotcha thanks05:43
mainlylinuxas far as my previous questions about the boot process, is anyone here from the ubuntu-dev team to hear them?05:44
chrisaFile a wishlist bug perhaps?05:45
mainlylinuxok sounds good05:45
mainlylinuxhow about the wiki, anyone here have admin access there?  I want to edit a page that's marked immutable05:46
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Kamionmainlylinux: you're not logged in05:47
Kamionmainlylinux: I think the things you've mentioned are covered in http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/HoaryHedgehog05:48
Kamion" Start gdm earlier05:48
KamionDon't try DHCP if we don't have a link beat.05:48
Kamion    *05:48
Kamion      Double-whammy improvement: you don't get DHCP timing out and trying an old lease when you're not plugged in, and you don't get NTP timing out thus.05:48
kylemis that really pronounced as 'whorey'?05:49
mainlylinuxis hoary the next version?05:49
Kamionmainlylinux: yes05:49
Kamionkylem: that would depend on your accent, I guess :-)05:49
Kamion(it's not in mine)05:49
sivangKamion : have you gotten a rather, vauge email from me lately? :)05:54
sivangKamion : I forgot to state what I was referring there, but it was the gui installer :)05:55
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=== chrisa chuckles at the part of the hoary wiki that has "Gui installer" listed as a to-do
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Kamionsivang: yes; have you done any d-i work?06:20
Kamionsivang: I'd suggest that Debian would be a better place to learn that than Ubuntu, really; you can be surrounded by far more people who are expert in the installer there06:20
Kamionchrisa: ayup06:20
Kamionchrisa: may not make it for Hoary, but it's something I've already done some work on06:21
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hornbeckKamion: lame question, does d-i stand for debian installer?06:34
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Kamionhornbeck: yes06:38
hornbeckok thought so06:38
Kamionparticular implementation rather than just generically "whatever software happens to be responsible for installing Debian", though06:38
Kamionthe successor to boot-floppies06:38
srbakerwonder if dpkg-repackage could be used to do a warty install from livecd06:42
Kamionthe procedure documented in the installation manual for installing from another Unix system is probably a better idea06:45
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tsenghas anyone made a stab at a libdbus-cil ?07:10
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sivangKamion : ok, but *you* are one of the known experts as well :)08:02
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Kamionsivang: I am only one overworked person :-)08:04
KamionI'd much rather have help from people who've already gained experience in the Debian hothouse, because one person is not enough to both teach others and do the work08:05
Kamionif we had several installer people already, things might be different08:05
sivangKamion : ok, no prob.08:09
Kamionthe #debian-boot crew are a nice bunch though08:10
sivangKamion : yes I know :) you once was one of them ;-)08:12
sivangKamion : sorry, that went like something else, I meant you are still one of them hehe08:13
sivangbasically as I'm coming to understand, Ubuntu is not the place for the less experienced, faint of heart, uninitiated d-i person :)08:13
Kamionthat's not necessarily true, but right now the gtk frontend is one of the hardest possible places to dive in08:14
Kamionmy bug list may provide less intimidating introductions :-)08:14
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pittimdz: here?08:24
mdzpitti: yes08:24
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pittimdz: my network was down today, I will deal with gaim now08:25
pittimdz: why do the recent security updates appear in the sources list, but not in Packages?08:25
mdzpitti: ?08:25
pittimdz: cups/xpdf are compiled and at the mirror, but my apt packages file is still 0 bytes08:25
mdzpitti: powerpc?08:26
pittimdz: hmm, odd, the packages file on the mirror has the files..08:26
pittimdz: no, i38608:26
pittimdz: I apt-get updated several times now08:26
pittimdz: does it work for you?08:26
mdzpitti: they are there on archive.ubuntu.com08:27
pittimdz: /var/lib/apt/lists/security.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_warty-security_main_binary-i386_Packages is 0 bytes08:27
pittimdz: yes, that's the odd thing08:27
mdzpitti: hmm, security.ubuntu.com has two IPs08:27
mdzelmo: ?08:27
pittimdz: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/warty-security/Contents-i386.gz is empty08:28
pittimdz: is that on purpose?08:28
mdzpitti: it probably just hasn't been generated yet; Contents is not very important08:28
mdzI think it happens once per week or something?08:28
pittimdz: hmm, still this is quite odd... apt-get update should update the package index08:28
pittimdz: well, if it works for you, I will investigate this on my side08:28
elmo-rw-rw-r--    1 archvsync archvsync     3648 2004-10-23 03:08 /srv/ftp.root/ubuntu/dists/warty-security/main/binary-i386/Packages.gz08:28
elmo-rw-rw-r--    1 archvsync archvsync     3648 Oct 23 03:08 /srv/ftp.root/ubuntu/dists/warty-security/main/binary-i386/Packages.gz08:29
mdzelmo: wondering why security.ubuntu.com points to both .138 and .15508:29
elmolook fine to me08:29
mdzand what .155 is08:29
carlosit works also here (ppc), I think I got them yesterday08:29
elmomdz: we round-robined stuff in preparation for the release.  we had to undo archive.ubuntu.com 'cos people we're using it to reach cdimages which we don't have the space for on mirnyy08:30
mdzyes, it is certainly working in general08:30
elmo155 is mirnyy08:30
elmoaka releases.u.c08:30
mdzelmo: and the security mirror on mirnyy is up to date?08:30
elmothat's the two lines I pasted above08:30
elmoauckland and mirnyy08:30
mdzpitti: no idea what your problem is08:30
T-Bonemako: ping?08:30
pittimdz: okay, thanks; I'll investigate further08:31
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makoT-Bone: hey there08:59
T-Bonehey mako08:59
tsenghm, should dbus-sharp be called libdbus-cil ?09:01
hornbecktseng: it would fit the other's than09:14
makoT-Bone: whats up09:18
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pittimdz: https://chinstrap.warthogs.hbd.com/~pitti/ has an updated gaim package and an interdiff (with a very verbose changelog)10:03
pittimdz: Debian already has 1.0.2, so it does not need a patch 10:03
pittimdz: is there any more formal staging area for such updates for you to approve?10:04
mdzpitti: I am happy for you to upload them to the security queue immediately10:24
mdzpitti: I prefer to test the official binaries anyway10:24
mdzthey are not published until amber is run10:24
pittimdz: okay, here we go; uploaded10:25
pittimdz: can you just remove the upload from the queue if there was sth wrong?10:25
mdzpitti: no, but we can supersede it trivially with a new upload10:25
pittimdz: ah, okay10:26
pittimdz: it would be nice to have a staging area that is already autobuilt while waiting for approval10:26
mdzpitti: that is essentially what it is10:26
mdzthey are autobuilt as soon as you upload them10:26
pittimdz: elmo said that I should not upload unapproved updates10:26
Keybukmdz: btw, what's the warty-updates distribution for?10:27
mdzKeybuk: non-security bugfixes for stable10:27
Keybukbut we've not documented that anywhere, and warty hasn't been shipped with any mention of it in /etc/apt/sources.list10:28
mdzpitti: as long as you get the version numbering right, pretty much anything else can be fixed trivially10:28
mdzKeybuk: it's also empty10:28
Keybukin fact, the comment in sources.list specifically seems to say that the ordinary warty archive is going to get the updates10:28
mdzKeybuk: it does?10:28
Keybukit does how I read it10:28
mdzKeybuk: if you think it needs clarification, file a bug against base-config with suggested text10:29
Keybukthe way we've set it up now, I don't think we *can* use warty-updates10:29
Keybukif we were going to do that, we should've shipped warty with it in sources.list10:29
mdzKeybuk: it's no different than proposed-updates10:30
mdzit's opt-in10:31
Keybukdo the updates end up in warty when approved?10:31
Keybukso warty isn't getting any bug fixes?10:31
mdz"warty" / Ubuntu 4.10 is static10:32
mdzaccording to sabdfl there shall be no point releases10:32
Keybukright, I misunderstood that then :)10:32
KeybukI assumed we were still going to do occasional major-bug fixes to it10:32
mdzwe will, but they'll be kept separate10:33
Keybukfair enough I guess; would've still been nice to document this somewhere for users :o)10:33
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sabdflKeybuk: yes, we should have mentioned warty-updates in sources.list, i didn't realise the distinction myself until after release11:24
sabdflbut mdz is right: security-updates only will generate better trust with sysadmins11:24
sabdfland with our regular release schedule a point release of warty seems silly unless it's a disastrous bug we have to fix11:25
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sabdflwhat we might do, if warty-updates keeps making warty better, is release warty again when hoary goes out, as "enterprise grade", but we've not really put any thought into the work required to keep fixing bugs in warty, and no clear idea how to fund that sustainably11:26
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Kamionenterprise-grade> the five-year thing?11:40
pittisjoerd: Hey, pmount already made it through NEW. That was quick...11:50
pittisjoerd: it should go into the archive with tomorrow's katie run11:50
sjoerdpitti: saw it.. hal 0.4.0 made it too 11:51
pittisjoerd: oh, nice11:51
pittisjoerd: let the future begin :-)11:52
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Kamion#2698 is kind of d'oh; fortunately not critical ...11:52
sjoerdpitti: g-v-m 1.0.2 is going to sarge tonight too 11:54
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