[12:01] <chrisa> Last I heard, that was to keep the menu simple
[12:01] <chrisa> Same with gvim
[12:01] <srbaker_> ahh
[12:03] <srbaker_> suck
[12:04] <srbaker_> hey, i saw vim-gnome for the first time the other day.
[12:04] <srbaker_> almost made an emacs convert out of me.
[12:04] <chrisa> Does vim-gnome offer anything vim-gtk doesn't?
[12:04] <srbaker_> chrisa, i think dnd
[12:04] <srbaker_> and it must, it's a separate package
[12:34] <mdz> ok
[12:34] <mdz> sabdfl: ^ :-)
[12:35] <sabdfl> ah
[12:35] <jdub> mdz: re vim-* or menus?
[12:35] <mdz> jdub: distutils
[12:35] <jdub> oh
[12:35] <jdub> hey, had a fucked up dream
[12:35] <jdub> wanted to fact check it
[12:37] <sabdfl> since i want python to be a first class citizen on ubuntu it seems bizarre to be in a scrap with the pythonistas
[12:37] <mdz> the specifics of its function seem less important than the fact that they're part of the standard Python library
[12:37] <jdub> how do you stop a user doing LD_PRELOAD?
[12:37] <mdz> upstream made an explicit decision on that, and started shipping distutils with the python croe
[12:37] <mdz> core
[12:37] <sabdfl> mdz: we can't be beholden to someone else in that regard
[12:37] <mdz> jdub: stab them in the face?
[12:37] <mdz> err
[12:37] <sabdfl> o.m.g.
[12:37] <Kamion> jdub: set-id executable?
[12:37] <jdub> ok, what if you don't have anything sharp handy?
[12:37] <sabdfl> they build distutils because most platforms don't have python as a central feature
[12:37] <mdz> sabdfl: I don't see it that way; it's a matter of compatibility?
[12:37] <Kamion> jdub: otherwise, you don't
[12:37] <mdz> s/\?//
[12:37] <sabdfl> i'm not saying we should not support the distutils interface
[12:37] <jdub> Kamion: hrm.
[12:37] <sabdfl> but i think we should do so in a way that is integrated with dpkg
[12:40] <sabdfl> we have an excellent pkg management framework in dpkg
[12:40] <mdz> that's a very complex, long-term sort of project
[12:40] <mdz> whereas including distutils is simple, straghtforward, standard, compatible and useful today
[12:40] <sabdfl> where does distutils stuff its files
[12:40] <jdub> Kamion: i'm thinking LD_PRELOAD=ha-ha-gconf.so <locked-down-application>
[12:40] <Kamion> jdub: ayup
[12:40] <mdz> /usr/local/lib/python-<ver>/site-python
[12:40] <sabdfl> jdub: you dreamt this?
[12:40] <Kamion> jdub: making stuff setgid <something-random> has been known
[12:40] <jdub> or worse, LD_PRELOAD=... gconfd
[12:40] <mdz> jdub: what's the use case exactly?
[12:40] <jdub> sabdfl: stfu!
[12:40] <jdub> mdz: getting around gconf lockdown.
[12:40] <sabdfl> between mdz's knee-jerk knifing and your dreams i think we all need a little time away from the keybd
[12:40] <mdz> jdub: what's gconf lockdown?
[12:40] <jdub> if lockdown was done in the backends, it probably wouldn't be an issue
[12:40] <jdub> mdz: you can set mandatory settings and so on with gconf
[12:40] <sabdfl> mdz: preventing users from changing settings
[12:40] <jdub> mdz: see /etc/gconf/2/path
[12:40] <Kamion> bad idea> the worst corner case that comes to mind is file conflicts; we can't realistically ensure that all packages we ship properly conflict with all packages a hypothetical distutils-dpkg might make up on the fly when they share filenames
[12:40] <Kamion> jdub: is that actually used for security-critical purposes?
[12:40] <sabdfl> kamion I'm not suggesting that distutils should make up a pkg on the fly
[12:40] <jdub> Kamion: depends on how you'd define security critical, but i'd probably say no
[12:40] <sabdfl> but rather that it should try to find the correct .deb
[12:40] <Kamion> jdub: if it is, and if it runs entirely in a user's security boundary, whoever made it up was dreaming
[12:40] <jdub> Kamion: it's just a barrier to doofusness
[12:40] <mdz> jdub: ok, looked at that
[12:41] <Kamion> sabdfl: ah, that would be a bit more palatable
[12:41] <mdz> jdub: but what is gconf lockdown? :-)
[12:41] <sabdfl> Kamion: slightly
[12:41] <sabdfl> :-)
[12:41] <Kamion> sabdfl: although it obviously only works as root, and I'm betting most real distutils use cases don't happen as root
[12:41] <jdub> mdz: keys can be locked to administrator provided-values
[12:41] <mdz> jdub: to what end?
[12:41] <jdub> mdz: so they become read-only and users can't change them
[12:41] <sabdfl> how can you write to  /usr/local/lib/python-<ver>/site-python unless you are root?
[12:42] <Kamion> sabdfl: (although it could say "alternatively, you could ask your administrator to install python-<foo>", I suppose)
[12:42] <mdz> jdub: to what higher purpose?
[12:42] <Kamion> sabdfl: surely distutils can write to somewhere in $HOME too?
[12:42] <Kamion> sabdfl: CPAN.pm can
[12:42] <mdz> sabdfl: you can't; installing software is a rootish sort of thing at present
[12:42] <sabdfl> exactly
[12:42] <mdz> distutils and dpkg are not a very good match
[12:42] <Kamion> any sensible system like that allows users to install their own libraries
[12:42] <jdub> mdz: to "lock" "down" parts of the desktop so that users can't change them.
[12:42] <mdz> distutils says "take this python module I wrote and put it into the system python catalog"
[12:42] <jdub> mdz: readonly configuration values means that the user can't make changes.
[12:43] <mdz> jdub: unless they really try hard
[12:43] <jdub> such as LD_PRELOADing
[12:43] <sabdfl> i think we can make a credible effort to ensure that every serious python lib is available as a deb
[12:43] <mdz> sure
[12:43] <mdz> but that isn't the same thing as distutils
[12:43] <sabdfl> i'm willing to put the resources behind that
[12:43] <Kamion> jdub: or ptrace(3), or any number of other things
[12:43] <mdz> and I don't think it's a reason to make distutils a second-class citizen
[12:44] <sabdfl> well, our distutils should at least TRY to find the right deb
[12:44] <Kamion> jdub: non-set-id lockdown is just a dream
[12:44] <mdz> jdub: or any number of things
[12:44] <mdz> you can't realistically prevent a user from changing a program
[12:44] <sivang> can't distutils be packages and then used on will ?
[12:44] <Kamion> mmm, ptrace(2) rather
[12:44] <jdub> fwiw, python fascists love debian as their python-crack CPAN
[12:44] <sivang> *packaged
[12:44] <sabdfl> because it's much better for support for us to install a deb than something in /usr/local
[12:44] <sabdfl> jdub: and we install a lot of those into desktop by default
[12:45] <Kamion> sabdfl: you only get that among people with total, utter Debian/Ubuntu buy-in
[12:45] <mdz> sabdfl: this seems like a separate issue to me
[12:45] <mdz> sabdfl: "should we split distutils from python proper" vs. "should we make distutils smarter"
[12:45] <Kamion> sabdfl: anybody in a heterogeneous environment, or even anyone who's ever administered machines in a heterogeneous environment, will I suspect end up with stuff in /usr/local
[12:45] <sabdfl> true
[12:45] <sivang> after all, linux is about control. If someone is doing some funky /usr/local stuff, we might want to only warn him. BUt let him go with the changes.
[12:45] <mdz> I think "no" and "yes"
[12:46] <sabdfl> so we could do both: ship distutils, and make it more ubuntu-aware
[12:46] <mdz> jdub: I can see that being useful for a site admin, to prevent users from accidentally shooting themselves in the foot
[12:46] <Kamion> sabdfl: that seems like the best of both worlds, yeah
[12:46] <mdz> but it can't be realistic as a security feature
[12:46] <sabdfl> ok, so that's what we should do for hoary
[12:46] <jdub> mdz: not hard security, no
[12:46] <sabdfl> i'll update the bug
[12:46] <mdz> not any kind of security
[12:47] <sabdfl> does anyone else see a heisenbug with firefox refusing to take keyboard input?
[12:47] <jdub> (depends on your definition, and your audience)
[12:47] <mdz> sabdfl: the "smarter distutils" project would be a big one
[12:47] <jdub> in the mean time, i'm going to hassle havoc
[12:47] <sabdfl> mdz: would it be particularly tricky?
[12:48] <mdz> sabdfl: distutils works from a tree of python stuffs
[12:48] <mdz> sabdfl: there would need to be an external mapping from that to debs
[12:48] <mdz> it can't realistically find the .deb given the information in the source tree
[12:48] <mdz> s/given/given only/
[12:48] <sabdfl> right, there needs to be a db of debs that's part of the same package as distutils
[12:48] <sabdfl> just like the "install an app"
[12:49] <sabdfl> mdz: why not?
[12:49] <sabdfl> md5sums
[12:49] <sivang> basically, the wish is for every modules to have a seperate package?
[12:49] <mdz> sabdfl: ok, so I unpack the python 'foo' module version 1.23 and run 'make install' which invokes distutils routines to install the stuff
[12:50] <jdub> mdz: (can we do this with the package post-processing foo we need for translations, embedded and installer?)
[12:50] <mdz> jdub: yes, it requires that sort of infrastructure
[12:50] <mdz> which is what makes it complex
[12:51] <sabdfl> thing is, we want to promote python as an app language
[12:51] <mdz> also, even with all of that, I think the best we can do (and remain sensible) is tell the user "hey, did you know you can get that as a .deb?" before doing what they asked
[12:51] <mdz> we can't substitute a .deb behind their backs
[12:51] <sabdfl> but we dont want to end up in a situation where instlaling a big app results in tons of stuff in /usr/local which is *perfectly* packaged for ubuntu
[12:52] <jdub> (there are also version considerations and so on, we might have too-new or too-old versions)
[12:52] <mdz> sabdfl: distutils is the sort of thing which is used in automated build systems
[12:52] <sabdfl> jdub: md5sums
[12:53] <mdz> if the user has a python module, and they say "install this", and we sneak about and give them something else, that's evil
[12:53] <sabdfl> how does distutils handle conflicts, depends
[12:53] <mdz> it doesn't, afaik
[12:53] <sabdfl> but dpkg does
[12:53] <mdz> it's not a package management system
[12:53] <mdz> it's more like debhelper than dpkg
[12:54] <mdz> you write a description of your project for it, and it puts everything in the right places for you
[12:54] <sabdfl> mdz: agreed, not behind their back or silently, it should give them the option to install the deb
[12:54] <mdz> so when you have a Debian package of a python module, it uses distutils to do the real work
[12:54] <mdz> "make install" uses distutils
[12:55] <sabdfl>  really? deb's of python libs use distutils?
[12:55] <mdz> yes
[12:55] <mdz> that's what it's for
[12:55] <sabdfl> then why is it not installed?
[12:55] <mdz> it's used at build time
[12:55] <sabdfl> we have a lot of debs of python libs installed
[12:56] <mdz> not at install time
[12:56] <sabdfl> so the deb doesn't the deb0src does
[12:56] <sivang> mdz : does it unpack the source and run distutils against it?
[12:56] <mdz> correct
[01:01] <hazmat> there are a few python gnome apps which use distutils for deployment
[01:02] <hazmat> although i'm not really clear how robust that is outside of default install locations
[01:02] <hazmat> like revelation
[01:04] <hazmat> since gnome apps tend to need lots of registration files in the proper location.. http://oss.codepoet.no/revelation/
[01:05] <sivang> hazmat : this is already used in ubuntu's current gnome installation?
[01:05] <hazmat> not afaik
[01:05] <hazmat> no
[01:07] <hazmat> most of the python gnome apps tend to use the autoconf setups, which still reads like greek to me.. there are a few of those in ubuntu (like blog-applet, meld)
[01:08] <sivang> hazmat : if they were using distutils, they would have used a .py setup file for python foo.py install ?
[01:09] <hazmat> sivang, yes.. and you can pass in different installation roots to the install.. but its fairly aribtrary code in terms of how the actual install is performed, the degree of customization for distutils varies greatly from systems like 4suite and scipy which are basically running their own distutils.. but the toplevel commands are typically the same. ie python setup.py install 
[01:16] <sivang> hazmat : so when you install scipy from source, it would use the "standard" distutils format, and as a side effect mangle with /usr/local etc?
[01:17] <jdub> ls
[01:17] <jdub> heh
[01:17] <jdub> bong
[01:17] <srbaker_> grr.  is there a graphical tool for editing runlevels?
[01:17] <srbaker_> i want to stop raid, evms, lvm, etc.
[01:18] <__daniel> srbaker_, i'm not quite sure, if i told _you_, but there's  update-rc.d  you could use on them
[01:19] <srbaker_> i know about update-rc.d.  i wanted a gnome app to recommend to a friend.
[01:19] <srbaker_> so i'm trying to figure out gui ways to do things
[01:24] <srbaker_> there.  boot time should be short now
[01:32] <srbaker_> is there a place to register ubuntu repositories?
[01:32] <srbaker_> like apt-get.org, only for ubuntu?
[01:33] <srbaker_> i'm going to be packaging ifolder, simias, addressbook, spamtrainer, and tomboy
[01:36] <srbaker_> yo
[01:36] <srbaker_> whoops.
[01:36] <ctalkep> what is tomboy?
[01:36] <srbaker_> uh "Wiki for your Panel"
[01:36] <ctalkep> huh?
[01:36] <srbaker_> it's a sticky note app with linking capabilities, basically
[01:37] <ctalkep> sounds nice
[01:37] <ctalkep> where do i get it?
[01:38] <jdub> srbaker_: tomboy is already done, ifolder and friends are on their way
[01:38] <srbaker_> see edd dumbill's log
[01:38] <srbaker_> jdub, oh.  nice.  where will i be able to find those?
[01:38] <jdub> tseng's repo for tomboy
[01:38] <jdub> mine will have ifolder and friends
[01:39] <ctalkep> and what are ifolder and friends?
[01:39] <srbaker_> ahh
[01:39] <srbaker_> are you doing for debian, too?
[01:39] <jdub> yeah
[01:39] <srbaker_> oh, excellent
[01:39] <srbaker_> :)
[01:40] <jdub> someone else has itp'ed it though
[01:40] <srbaker_> ahh
[02:54] <__daniel> Kamion, still around - booshi in #ubuntu also experienced #1566 - if you need more input on the bug...
[03:18] <sgtshatta> anyone here?
[03:19] <Keybuk> nope
[03:19] <sid77> hi
[03:19] <sid77> lol
[03:19] <sgtshatta> i have a simple question?
[03:20] <sid77> don't know, have you? ;)
[03:20] <Keybuk> sgtshatta: is it development related?
[03:20] <sgtshatta> actually no!
[03:20] <sgtshatta> i am a new user to ubuntu 
[03:20] <Keybuk> ah, you may find #ubuntu a far better place to ask it -- there's more people there with a much wider experience and you're more likely to get a useful answer
[03:21] <sgtshatta> thank you much
[03:21] <Keybuk> this is where we talk about what patches are going in the libc6 of the next release, etc.
[03:21] <Keybuk> it's also best to simply ask your question, and wait for the answer; rather than asking to ask a question :)
[03:23] <sgtshatta> quite tru
[03:23] <sgtshatta> true
[03:24] <sgtshatta> i change my $PATH in /etc/profile system wide after reboot it did not change
[03:25] <Keybuk> didn't change for what?
[03:26] <sgtshatta> well I am trying to compile a piece of software from source and it requires some libraries from /usr/lib
[03:26] <sgtshatta> and i made some changes to my $PATH to point to it but it did not locate /usr/lib/pkgconfig
[03:27] <Keybuk> it wouldn't
[03:27] <Keybuk> /usr/lib/pkgconfig is a directory
[03:27] <Keybuk> it's looking for /usr/bin/pkg-config
[03:27] <sgtshatta> I know its a directory but why did my environmental path not change
[03:27] <Keybuk> and that will definitely be in your $PATH, unless your system is insane and dribbling out of the ears
[03:27] <sgtshatta> LOL
[03:27] <Keybuk> about a thousand reasons
[03:28] <Keybuk> mostly boiling down to most things don't read /etc/profile
[03:28] <sid77> what about playib with configure options?
[03:28] <sid77> playibg
[03:28] <sid77> urgh
[03:28] <sgtshatta> get it right
[03:28] <sgtshatta> lol
[03:28] <sid77> p l a y i n g
[03:28] <sgtshatta> LOL
[03:28] <sid77> yatta!
[03:29] <sgtshatta> keybuk: but from what this software is i wont need to mess with the config options
[03:29] <sid77> maybe using something like "./configure --pkg-path=..."
[03:29] <Keybuk> /etc/profile is only read for interactive login bourne-compatible shells
[03:29] <Keybuk> or, in english, it's only read if you login on the text-mode console
[03:29] <sid77> (option invented right now)
[03:29] <Keybuk> (and I really expect you're not doing that, and are just opening a graphical Terminal)
[03:30] <sgtshatta> you're right but i did all that 
[03:30] <Keybuk> what's not getting located?
[03:30] <sgtshatta> libxine.so
[03:30] <sgtshatta> I am trying to install my favorite video player
[03:30] <mojo_> hi there
[03:31] <sid77> oh, wait
[03:31] <Keybuk> do you have the libxine-dev package installed?
[03:31] <sid77> I've had same problem loong ago
[03:31] <mojo_> Anyone here reponsible for FireFox build?
[03:31] <sgtshatta> no i dont have libxine-dev installed
[03:31] <sgtshatta> i dloaded the source from the site
[03:31] <Keybuk> sgtshatta: install libxine-dev :o)
[03:31] <mojo_> I want the Ubuntu mozconfig for some experimental tweak
[03:31] <sgtshatta> can i use apt-get to do that?
[03:31] <Keybuk> mojo_: apt-get source mozilla-firefox
[03:31] <sid77> sgtshatta, and remember ldconfig after that!
[03:32] <sgtshatta> yea i know ldconfig
[03:32] <Keybuk> sgtshatta: aptitude install libxine-dev  will give you the xine development library
[03:32] <sgtshatta> keybuk: give me that syntax again??
[03:32] <mojo_> does the src pkg from our repository contain mozconfig (for Unbuntu build)???
[03:33] <sgtshatta> keybuk: that worked kool 
[03:33] <Keybuk> mojo_: if mozconfig is important to build mozilla-firefox, I would expect so
[03:36] <mojo_> Keybuk, you've seen pitti, bob2 around?
[03:37] <Keybuk> I expect they're both doing Saturday things
[03:37] <Keybuk> bob2, Sunday morning things
[03:39] <mojo_> maybe, damm too tired for whole months, now I can relax a bit
[03:48] <Mitario> hi
[03:49] <mojo_> watsup?
[03:51] <__daniel> good night
[05:26] <fabbione> morning guys
[05:31] <tseng> hi
[05:49] <hornbeck> tseng: what is the chance of a gecko-sharp-0.6 package soon?
[05:49] <tseng> erm
[05:49] <tseng> what for?
[05:49] <hornbeck> so I can try the new blam
[05:49] <hornbeck> it uses gecko for rendering
[05:50] <hornbeck> I guess I could just learn to package it myself huh :-)
[06:01] <tseng> hm
[06:01] <tseng> maybe later
[06:01] <tseng> not today mater
[06:01] <tseng> mate*
[06:04] <hornbeck> I am working on it
[06:04] <hornbeck> it is not something that everyone would need right now, so I might as well learn
[06:27] <hornbeck> goodnight guys
[06:43] <srbaker_> totem in ubuntu is totem-gstreamer?
[06:50] <mdz> srbaker_: yes
[07:07] <tuo2> Gah. Why do people insist on saying that Firefox is "more secure"? It's a tenuous claim, at best.... 
[07:15] <sivang> morning all
[07:26] <fabbione> morning sivang 
[07:32] <sivang> hey fabbione, how's xorg going?
[07:33] <fabbione> sivang: it's going :-)
[07:33] <fabbione> i am breaking the libraries right now
[07:33] <fabbione> the real problem is not building it
[07:33] <fabbione> it's do in such a way that you can actually upgrade from Xfree86 to X.org
[07:36] <sivang> hmmm..interesting. Can't a way be found to do something like (in the upgrade process) to remove xfree's file and install xorg's ones?
[07:37] <fabbione> sivang: that what needs to be done :-)
[07:37] <fabbione> there is one way only
[07:38] <fabbione> but it needs to be done very carefully
[07:38] <fabbione> and that requires a lot of upgrade tests
[07:40] <sivang> fabbione : well, just let me know what you need :)
[07:42] <fabbione> sivang: as soon as there is something more concrete to work on.. be sure i will call you
[07:42] <fabbione> you are the first name in my list of bitches^Wpeople that can help ;)
[07:43] <lamont> moo
[07:45] <fabbione> hey lamont 
[07:46] <lamont> yo
[07:49] <fabbione> good night :)
[07:59] <sivang> fabbione : Well, that way I'll buy myself some treats in this jail :)
[08:00] <fabbione> ehhe
[08:00] <sivang> night lamont
[08:00] <sivang> it's been a rough one I guess?
[08:38] <mdz> tuo2: because they compare it to IE :-)
[08:39] <tuo2> mdz: I just see people seeing themselves up for a fall, that's all. I mean, it's the fanboys who worry me...
[08:39] <tuo2> making claims that they have no understanding of.
[08:42] <tuo2> mdz: any news on the security team yet?
[08:45] <mdz> tuo2: you mean, apart from the two advisories posted on the website today? ;-)
[08:46] <tuo2> mdz: ?
[08:46] <mdz> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/usn/errorreferencefolder_view
[08:47] <tuo2> ah, sweet.
[08:47] <tuo2> mdz: I was more talking about this...http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/teams/security
[08:48] <sivang> *in
[08:49] <mdz> I didn't even know that page existed until now
[08:49] <mdz> so obviously I haven't been updating it :-)
[08:49] <tuo2> mdz: heh.
[08:50] <fabbione> hey mdz
[08:50] <mdz> fabbione: morning
[08:50] <tuo2> that might explain things.. I asked about this a couple of weeks ago (was in volunteering mood) and was told to watch that space..
[08:50] <fabbione> mdz: i didn't see any announcment about the new wiki
[08:50] <mdz> fabbione: I think it went to -doc
[08:50] <fabbione> do we have a -doc mailing list?
[08:51] <sivang> no
[08:51] <sivang> we are currently using -devel with [doc]  tag
[08:51] <mdz> fabbione: yes we do
[08:51] <mdz> sivang: no, please use the -doc list now
[08:51] <sivang> ha?
[08:51] <sivang> when that did happen? :)
[08:51] <fabbione> guys we need to post this stuff in like -announce or -news
[08:51] <mdz> sivang: yesterday
[08:52] <fabbione> otherwise it gets lost in the noise
[08:52] <mdz> -devel is fine for this
[08:52] <sivang> ah
[08:52] <sivang> Funny, I checked the mailing lists yesterday, wiki etc. Didn't see no evidence to it
[08:52] <sivang> mdz : you set it up? Enrico?
[08:53] <sivang> I'll rush up alos to update the wiki page of DocTeam
[08:54] <sivang> mdz : it started getting high traffic ? :)
[08:55] <fabbione> mdz: did we get automatically subscribed?
[08:56] <mdz> fabbione: no one was automatically subscribed
[08:56] <fabbione> ok
[08:57] <sivang> was this discussed over the weekend?
[08:57] <mdz> not really; it was just time for a new list
[09:02] <fabbione> uff it's time to start to work in the house
[09:02] <fabbione> bbl
[09:03] <fabbione> ah mdz: is the old wiki completely imported into the new one?
[09:14] <mdz> fabbione: not entirely
[09:14] <mdz> yet
[09:16] <jdub> mdz: warty-updates + warty-security -> we're keeping with that split?
[09:33] <mdz> jdub: yes, unless there's a compelling reason to do it differently
[09:38] <mdz> jdub: practically _everyone_ wants security fixes, but some folks are conservative enough not to want non-security fixes
[09:38] <mdz> for example, we're likely to put a kernel into warty-updates with some bugfixes
[09:39] <jdub> yeah
[09:39] <jdub> cool
[09:44] <mdz> jdub: the merging aspect will suck (package in -updates + new package in -security requires a merge for a new -updates package)
[09:44] <mdz> but hct will ease that when it comes
[09:45] <jdub> mmm
[09:45] <mdz> we probably won't put very much into -updates in the near future
[09:46] <mdz> so far the only candidate is #1814
[09:46] <jdub> there's an evolution-exchange bug i'd like to see fixed in -updates, though
[09:46] <jdub> hrm, don't think it's in our bugtracker
[09:46] <mdz> we should have a representation for that in bugzilla
[09:46] <jdub> yeah
[09:46] <mdz> i.e., which items should be considered for -updates
[09:47] <mdz> bedtime now, though
[09:47] <mdz> night
[09:47] <jdub> night
[09:48] <jdub> perhaps target wartywarthog, severity critical
[10:42] <sivang> when pages are going to be migrated to the new wiki?
[10:44] <__daniel> good morning
[10:45] <sivang> morning __daniel
[10:46] <__daniel> hai sivang :-)
[11:32] <__daniel> *grmbl* what do i do on "Language ar_EG.UTF-8 doesn't exist, using system default."?
[11:32] <sivang> __daniel : this should be asked on #ubuntu, but you'd probably do "sudo dpkg-reconfigure locales"
[11:32] <sivang> check the local you want to have, and let it be generated.
[11:32] <__daniel> sivang, that's what i did before
[11:32] <sivang> __daniel : you also chose it to be the system default?
[11:33] <__daniel> sivang, no, that's not needed
[11:34] <__daniel> sivang, other locales like nl_NL.UTF-8 worked nice without being the system default
[11:34] <sivang> __daniel : were you getting some sort of an error?
[11:36] <__daniel> "Language ar_EG.UTF-8 doesn't exist, using system default." when i chose it in gdm and logged in
[11:36] <__daniel> the guys in #arabeyes are clueless too (but they told me ar_EG was the arabic "best guess")
[11:39] <sivang> maybe it's just missing
[11:39] <__daniel> sivang, that would be very strange, because i got it with *all* ar_* locales
[11:39] <sivang> lemme check myself 
[11:46] <sivang> __daniel : here?
[11:46] <__daniel> sivang, yes
[11:46] <sivang> __daniel : It works perefectly. Arab letters had never seen so beautiful before :)
[11:46] <__daniel> do i have to modify /etc/gdm/local.alias or something to make it map "ar_EG.utf8"?
[11:46] <__daniel> *DAMN* i want to have that too
[11:46] <__daniel> *cry*
[11:46] <sivang> Arabic(Egypt)   ar_EG
[11:46] <sivang> Arabic(Egypt)   ar_EG.UTF-8
[11:46] <sivang> this what I Have on  /etc/gdm/local.alias
[11:46] <sivang> that is UTF8 , caps
[11:46] <sivang> UTF-8 that is, sorry
[11:46] <__daniel> sivang, i have that one too
[11:46] <__daniel> very very strange
[11:46] <sivang> __daniel : that might be a bug, but could you try again the dpkg magic thingy? :)
[11:46] <__daniel> sivang, dpkg magic thingie?
[11:46] <sivang> __daniel : I asked it to create egyptian UTF8 arabic, and didn't set it to default
[11:47] <sivang> __daniel : sudo dpkg-reconfigure locales
[11:49] <__daniel> sivang i tried it a dozen times :-)
[11:49] <__daniel> and restarted gdm and everything
[11:49] <__daniel> hmmm, don't know how i could have screwed this up
[11:49] <sivang> __daniel : hmm, I didn't even do a restart. let's move this to #ubuntu, shall we?
[11:49] <__daniel> right
[11:57] <azeem> so I installed warty on my parent's computer two weeks ago.
[11:57] <azeem> My dad used to bitch around how I should install Windows again on their computer all the time
[11:58] <azeem> yesterday, he asked me to install Ubuntu next to Windows on his new notebook :)
[11:58] <jdub> heh
[11:58] <jdub> rock!
[12:38] <amu> moinD
[12:41] <azeem> amu: who of you credativ guys is coming to LWE?
[12:45] <bob2> hm, how come tomboy includes a .so?
[12:45] <bob2> isn't it written in C#?
[12:47] <magnon> there's some c code in there as well
[12:47] <bob2> erk
[12:47] <bob2> tseng: your romboy packages are missing build-deps on gdk-2.0 and atk-2.0
[12:47] <bob2> er, just atk
[12:52] <azeem> gah, stupid irssi tab-completion for /leave
[12:53] <azeem> I was in #ubuntu, typed /leave #ubun<tab><return> and it completed to #ubuntu-devel for some weird reason
[01:13] <amu> hehe SUSE-Linux-9.2-LiveCD-Gnome.iso 
[01:44] <amu> someone run a sip phone?
[02:05] <bob2> tseng: and libgtkspell-dev 
[02:42] <hornbeck> mdz: you around?
[02:44] <Micksa> am I allowed on here? :)
[02:44] <hornbeck> sure
[02:45] <hornbeck> why not?
[02:45] <Micksa> well I'm not an ubuntu developer
[02:45] <Micksa> I like to lurk :)
[02:45] <bob2> just remember it's a development channel, nota user support one
[02:45] <Micksa> yeah, I know the drill :)
[02:46] <Micksa> bob2: did you used to hang out in #debian-devel?
[02:46] <bob2> still do
[02:46] <Micksa> ah.
[02:53] <plovs> hornbeck, sivang, hi!
[02:53] <sivang> hey plovs, what's up?
[02:53] <hornbeck> hey plovs
[02:53] <hornbeck> another day huh?
[02:53] <asw> hornbeck, plovs, sivang -- hi all! 
[02:53] <hornbeck> hello asw
[02:53] <sivang> hey asw
[02:54] <plovs> sivang, hornbeck, asw, spare time! time for wiki!
[02:54] <sivang> plovs : you mean the new wiki?
[02:54] <hornbeck> plovs: do we start adding things before it get migrated?
[02:54] <hornbeck> reStructuredText is sexy
[02:54] <asw> I've been reading the new list, watching the move to the Plone Wiki but I also shipped my PHD thesis proposal last night (the "official" draft goes out tomorrow).  Sorry I've been out of touch... 
[02:55] <hornbeck> asw: congrats
[02:55] <plovs> hornbeck, yes, maybe start with DocTeam stuff, i want to write a reStructuredText, document
[02:55] <asw> so, please, explain.  reStructuredText is not docBook? right?  So what formats can we export to from plone?
[02:56] <plovs> asw, congrats as well
[02:56] <sivang> why don't we start discussions on the new list? so not to leave things off to IRC and get lost, as it already did? I only missed 2 days and already I feel the world has turned over
[02:56] <sivang> THis is not benefitting us
[02:56] <hornbeck> asw: I am not sure what we can export to
[02:56] <asw> hornbeck. I dropped out of school at 20. (admittedly ten+ years later) I have a bsc and (very soon?) will have an msc in CS and phd in biophysics (eventually.) 
[02:57] <hornbeck> asw: nice
[02:57] <hornbeck> how are you now?
[02:57] <hornbeck> old
[02:57] <hornbeck> :-)
[02:57] <asw> 31
[02:57] <hornbeck> nice, I still have hope
[02:57] <asw> sivang: i agree we don't want to write too much in here. 
[02:58] <asw> I've asked before about logs. I think there are some logs floating around that we can probably get access to. 
[02:58] <asw> Now that I've started using IRC I guess it isn't so bad.  
[02:58] <sivang> asw : it was very odd finding out we *already* have a doc list, we're *moving* to antoher wiki system , the doc team is starting it's *own* distro.. :)
[02:58] <hornbeck> the problem with irc is people have to sleep and most of us are in different parts of the world
[02:59] <plovs> sivang, agreed, maybe drop more logs on the wiki as well?
[02:59] <asw> sivang: we have our *own* distro.  OK that's news to me. 
[02:59] <plovs> sivang, although the rest was  for me surprise as well
[02:59] <hornbeck> asw: I hope he was joking on that
[02:59] <hornbeck> :-)
[02:59] <sivang> asw : I was joking.
[02:59] <sivang> :)
[02:59] <hornbeck> it was suprise for all of us
[02:59] <bob2> if you guys want to get serious discussion going, you have to do it on the lists
[03:00] <sivang> asw : just to stress out the problematic aspect of doing stuff that way.
[03:00] <asw> plovs (thanks for the congrats btw.)  sivang: laughing
[03:00] <bob2> even if you just post summaries of stuff you come up with on IRC, you need list discussion
[03:00] <asw> silly question but how do I make an "aside" as I see people doing.
[03:00] <plovs> asw, /me aside
[03:00] <bob2> asw: like that?
[03:00] <sivang> yeah, just like the devels doing it. You would never spot here one of them discussion anything but late minute important stuff mostly :)
[03:00] <hornbeck> bob2: that seems like a problem with us right now
[03:00] <sivang> summeries would be just as bed
[03:00] <sivang> bad
[03:01] <hornbeck> asw: use slash action
[03:01] <sivang> people need time to think things, comment and respond properly etc
[03:01] <hornbeck> /action
[03:01] <sivang> we *must* move to the list.
[03:01] <bob2> hornbeck: plus IRC is more ephemeral, and doesn't get archived. and people tend to not think things through so much.
[03:01] <hornbeck> bob2: but its so much more fun in here :-)
[03:01] <plovs> let's agree on putting important stuff to the list, but irc is *nicer*
[03:01] <sivang> I just can't bare in mind that I will work on something  off the road, won't be on IRC for a day or 2 
[03:02] <sivang> and then it would be decided that this work altogether is redundent
[03:02] <sivang> which could happen,
[03:02] <hornbeck> sivang: not on irc for a day or two 
[03:02] <sivang> as things are currently managed.
[03:02] <hornbeck> asw it puts your name right away
[03:02] <hornbeck> so //action makes an aside
[03:03] <hornbeck> with one /
[03:03] <hornbeck> yes
[03:03] <hornbeck> congrats
[03:03] <hornbeck> irc elite
[03:03] <hornbeck> :-)
[03:04] <hornbeck> so how about as we talk, we write ideas in mails than mail them, than we tell each other that we mailed than we can go and remail each other,
[03:04] <sivang> I do not intend to scare anybody off from doing work, this is not the intent. I'd just like to see things discussed on the list before hand, documentation should be of no difference from development.
[03:04] <sivang> given they are slightly more than cosmetic changes.
[03:04] <plovs> sivang, although we should the wiki as well, just have a docteam page for *current* discussions
[03:06] <bob2> discussion *on* the wiki?
[03:06] <asw> sivang (others) I use gmail and let it help me search the ubuntu traffic.  I've left XChat open so I can load the logs in emacs and search.  I have most IRC logs since our doc-meeting and I expect somebody at Canonical has full logs we could access if it helps. (In addition do doing more list discussion, naturally)
[03:07] <sivang> asw : well, has has (mako) however when dicussing things on a mailing list, one does care to make things more readable and understandable, making it more easy to catch up by other people who weren't online on IRC or were not into the mindset that a specific conversation was in.
[03:07] <Gmail> do any of the devel want so of the port from debian .debs i will be working on?
[03:08] <Gmail> like i will port the latest gaim, xchat, firefox.... internet programs
[03:08] <sivang> asw : I think it's no wonder most of the real development stuff is discussed on mailing lists, take for example, GNOME, KDE, Debian etc
[03:08] <asw> sivang: yeah, I totally agree that people should not hav eto wade through IRC logs to get essential details of what's going on! 
[03:08] <bob2> Gmail: hoary will have them soon enough
[03:09] <Gmail> i am talking about porting them to warty
[03:09] <sivang> asw : keeping current with stuff should be easy, not a pain in the arse :) (my idea about searching through 3 days, few megs irc logs)
[03:09] <plovs> sivang, asw, *essential* stuff should be on the list (esp. now we have a real one) 
[03:09] <bob2> Gmail: you can do whatever you want, but they will not go into warty
[03:10] <asw> sivang: agreed re. *essential* stuff.  It is interesting, however, "meeting" you guys in IRC. 
[03:10] <Gmail> bob2: not *offical*
[03:10] <Gmail> bob2: not *offically*
[03:10] <bob2> Gmail: then host them in your own web space
[03:11] <Gmail> but i want to know if i should backport from hoary or port them from debian
[03:11] <sivang> asw : Ofcourse it is, and I persoanlly really like it, but it's more suitable for stuff like "do you remembner the docbook tag for header" then "Let's decide to open a new mailing list" , do you get my point?
[03:11] <bob2> Gmail: hoary doesn't exist.
[03:12] <bob2> sivang: that is the dynamic a lot of projects end up with...little reminders, questions, etc happen on IRC, but the big discussion ahappens on the list so everyon can contribute.
[03:12] <plovs> sivang, i don't think that was a docteam decision, was it?
[03:13] <sivang> plovs : I was using it as an example. yes, I think not :)
[03:13] <sivang> bob2 : agreed
[03:13] <Gmail> bob2: yet i am talking about when it comes out
[03:14] <sivang> we cannot expect each and every interested doc contributor to be online, some of them maybe expecting the list to be just as informative in the essential matters as IRC might be.
[03:14] <sivang> (*online all the time)
[03:14] <asw> bob2: actually, I follow lists extremely carefully and have done so for ten+ years.  Until I found IRC I never really felt "part of the process".  It's quite a dramatic difference actually.   
[03:14] <bob2> Gmail: when it comes out those packages will already exist in hoary, and backporting will be trivial...regardless, it's a discussion that can wait until hoary exists.
[03:14] <bob2> asw: oh, yes, it's very good for team building
[03:14] <sivang> what about the proposed doc sounder team? we could use the mailing list also to announce new documentation for testing etc..
[03:15] <plovs> hornbeck, good mail, who is on the docteam etc... but ubuntu moves so fast it is hard on everybody, and the new wiki was a surprise for everybody i suppose, although it was expected
[03:15] <bob2> asw: and to get to know people outside the strict technical forum of a list
[03:15] <bob2> asw: they're definitely complimentary
[03:15] <asw> So who has seen http://www.pastebin.com
[03:15] <Gmail> bob2: so i should just port from debian
[03:15] <Gmail> ok thanks
[03:16] <bob2> Gmail: hoary doesn't exist, so where else would do it from?
[03:16] <hornbeck> plovs: write that to the list
[03:16] <sivang> I agree with bob2, these are very good for getting to know each other and etc, and also if we are to decided things using this wonderful medium, we ought to make it a meeting , and announce it as wide as we can to maximize participation
[03:16] <hornbeck> plovs: thanks though, I thought it was a good mail
[03:16] <hornbeck> sivang: read your mail
[03:17] <hornbeck> :-)
[03:17] <Gmail> bob2: i am talking about in a few weeks whn hoary work will start
[03:17] <sivang> sure thing :)
[03:17] <hornbeck> gmail: do it if you want
[03:17] <bob2> Gmail: then practice your backporting skills and make a decision later
[03:17] <hornbeck> gmail: no one will tell you not to but it will not be included in warty, you will have to dipench them yourself
[03:18] <hornbeck> *dispench
[03:18] <hornbeck> nevermind
[03:18] <plovs> hornbeck, that's what spellcheckers are for :)
[03:19] <Gmail> hornbeck: but my package will *work* with warty that what i am tring to say
[03:19] <sivang> if we are going to put irc logs, they need to be summrized to include the essentials, so to ease finding the really important stuff
[03:19] <plovs> the only thing i think we should do is make a new docteam page on the new wiki, and a new intro to the wiki
[03:19] <sivang> not just put them there :)
[03:20] <sivang> plovs : I think we should wait with this until we are appointed a leader
[03:21] <plovs> sivang, agreed, under docteam a page called CurrentIssues or something, with notes from the logs. If st is important enough for that page it should also be in te mailinglist
[03:21] <sivang> Has anyone has anything to say about the documentation proposal by Enrico? I think it's very good, has anyone else seen it on -devel?
[03:21] <Gmail> just an idea for ubuntu: make in the boot up thing you are doing alt+f-lock's f1 == alt+f1, i was on a friends computer which he had a m$ kerboard and it was hell because his power went out every 5min and i had some console work to do
[03:22] <plovs> sivang, so who appints, mark?
[03:22] <sivang> plovs : I believe so.
[03:23] <plovs> sivang, i humbly disagree, let's get writing, later when we have a formal team-leader, he can sort it out, we need pages, not politics, the politics will follow, they always do.
[03:23] <hornbeck> gmail: it will not be included because new things like that are for hoary not warty, but you are free to host them yourself and distibute them
[03:24] <hornbeck> sivang: I just resent all of enrico's writeups to -doc
[03:24] <Gmail> is it possible to tern on f-lock if its off by default because you are using a fscked up keyboard
[03:24] <hornbeck> plovs: I agree to the lets write.
[03:25] <Gmail> hornbeck: I SAID: it will work *with* warty and not be part of offically
[03:25] <hornbeck> plovs: I however and being careful because I don't want to step in and start writing knowing that the wiki will start merging soon
[03:25] <plovs> hornbeck, off course i partly agree with sivang as well, i just don't like sitting around
[03:25] <hornbeck> gmail: please don't yell
[03:25] <bob2> Gmail: chill out.
[03:25] <bob2> Gmail: if you want to get an answer about your backports, ask on the list.
[03:25] <hornbeck> plovs: I hate sitting and it makes me think of working with other stuff than I get interested in them and lose site
[03:26] <sivang> plovs : I agree to leave behind the politics, however without the even most basic preparation and planning, we would end up with a bunch of pages, each one understandable only to the author , without an apparent way to sort out, to index, something that could cause an immesne turn of on a user trying to just get help
[03:26] <hornbeck> ADD
[03:26] <sivang> plovs : I think we are already at this point :(
[03:26] <plovs> hornbeck, some pages will need to change like restrucyredtexthowto
[03:26] <asw> plovs: it's certainly true about the politics.  All, sorry if I've talked too much about my PHD etc but it's rather pressing on my mind since if all goes well on Nov. 1st when I present my proposal I can have a year of full-time paid work that, in part, can go into ubuntu.   Personally, as one of the people that was interested in the moin->docbook gateway. I'm now intersted in ReStructuredText since we seem to have switched away from Doc
[03:26] <asw> Book to that. (I'm actually all for the idea in principle I just don't have any clude about ReStructuredText in practice.)  Anyway, this is a long message. I should go prepare for my proposal.  I'm following the lists. It's -really- nice meeting you all online.
[03:26] <Gmail> sorry i terned on caps lock by mistake as caps is under caps and saw and terned it off and wasnt bother to retype it all
[03:27] <hornbeck> plovs: I know, but there is no reason to cause more work for myself, so I am going to wait a day
[03:27] <bob2> Gmail: just chill in general.
[03:27] <sivang> I think waiting until next CC meeting is fine
[03:28] <plovs> hornbeck, ok, i continue with https://site-edit.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/QuickreStructuredText, feel free to comment on it, this page we will need anyway
[03:28] <sivang> has anyone decided to drop docbook for us?
[03:28] <hornbeck> plovs: feel free to do what ever
[03:28] <hornbeck> sivang: no docbook has not been dropped
[03:28] <hornbeck> reStructuredText is for the new wiki
[03:29] <hornbeck> docbook is how we write offline docs
[03:29] <plovs> hornbeck, i thought you were team leader?
[03:29] <hornbeck> plovs: no, I am not the teamleader
[03:29] <sivang> so investigations were made and we cannot have a docbook eating Plone?
[03:30] <hornbeck> sivang: I am not sure
[03:30] <sivang> hornbeck : do you know who's the contact for that matter?
[03:30] <hornbeck> sivang: right now no.
[03:31] <bob2> sivang: restructuredtext to docbook?
[03:32] <bob2> that can't happen automatically, docbook is a lot richer
[03:32] <sivang> bob2 : I was more thinking of the other way around
[03:32] <bob2> sivang: hm......sounds like an interesting project
[03:32] <plovs> sivang, bradb and lulu are doing plone stuff
[03:32] <sivang> write once, publish anywhere ? :)
[03:33] <sivang> I see. Well, are they on IRC?
[03:33] <hornbeck> sparkes hello
[03:33] <sparkes> hi again hornbeck 
[03:34] <plovs> sivang, they should be on irc monday
[03:34] <hornbeck> sparkes: meet plovs, and sivang
[03:34] <hornbeck> two other doc guys
[03:34] <sivang> plovs : where do you know all this from?
[03:34] <hornbeck> sivang: plovs, spends alot of time in here :-)
[03:34] <plovs> sivang, they got tired of me yesterday, asking plone questions
[03:34] <sivang> I see
[03:34] <asw> bob2: reStructuredText->docbook is in progress according to: http://docutils.sourceforge.net/index.html
[03:34] <sivang> :)
[03:35] <plovs> reStructuredText->docbook would be *very* nice
[03:35] <hornbeck> yes it would
[03:35] <hornbeck> cut down on alot of work
[03:35] <hornbeck> brb, wife just woke up
[03:35] <plovs> how is it going with the yelp stuff?
[03:36] <hornbeck> babies eating so I have a few
[03:40] <sivang> hey sparkes 
[03:40] <sparkes> hey sivang, everyone else
[03:43] <sivang> so what else has been going on? I'd like to get myself current on latest affairs
[03:43] <sivang> (docteam wise)
[03:43] <plovs> sparkes, hi, nice to see you, and i agree with your mail
[03:43] <hornbeck> sivang: there is not really much else
[03:44] <sivang> ok then.
[03:44] <plovs> sivang, 1) surprised by plone-wiki 2) surprised by mailinglist
[03:44] <sparkes> plovs, which mail?
[03:44] <sparkes> the nomination? ;-)
[03:45] <plovs> sparkes, yes, if hornbeck is the ad hoc leader well, so be it until further notice, later we can vote or have sb appointed, but that is just my opinion
[03:46] <sparkes> plovs, so that's a second
[03:46] <sparkes> hornbeck, you're it ;-)
[03:46] <hornbeck> plovs, sparkes: I will wait for sabdfl/mdz/jdub to do the appointing.  I don't want to step on any toes.
[03:46] <sivang> guys, havn't we just dicussed that such important decision should be made in the mailing list or in a CC meeting?
[03:46] <bob2> do you guys have plone accounts yet?
[03:46] <hornbeck> Thanks though, I am honered
[03:47] <hornbeck> bob2: For the new wiki, yes
[03:47] <bob2> ah, cool
[03:47] <sivang> besides, I think it's on Ubuntu Governence RUles that team leader get appointed only by CC meetings
[03:47] <hornbeck> at least some of us do
[03:47] <sparkes> bob2, nope
[03:47] <hornbeck> sparkes: in due time you will
[03:48] <tseng> bob2: you are wrong about libgtkspell-dev
[03:48] <sivang> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/governance/document_view
[03:48] <hornbeck> sivang, plovs, sparkes: I think this should all be discussed at the CC meeting so could someone add something to the Agenda for it
[03:48] <bob2> tseng: it wouldn't build until I installed it
[03:48] <plovs> sivang, agree,agree, just voicing opinion, not making policy
[03:48] <tseng> bob2:  libgtkspell-dev (>= 2.0.5),
[03:49] <sparkes> hornbeck, true
[03:49] <sivang> And I hope hornbeck won't resent me in the future just for making those observations..:)
[03:49] <bob2> tseng: hmmm
[03:49] <plovs> sivang, balance of power is always healthy
[03:50] <bob2> tseng: ok, sorryy; I see it in the control file, but debuild didn't complain
[03:50] <sivang> hornbeck : I just want things to be done properly. Or else we would end up on an isolated island, doing everything on our own, without noticing we're missing the point :)
[03:51] <tseng> bob2: did you apt-get build-dep tomboy?
[03:51] <bob2> tseng: no, but debuild should complain about missing build-deps
[03:52] <tseng> then i blame debuild
[03:52] <tseng> i dont see a syntax error
[03:53] <sid77> ops
[03:53] <sid77> sotty 'bout that
[03:54] <tseng> lintian doesnt mind it either
[03:55] <bob2> how odd
[03:55] <bob2> dpkg-checkbuilddeps doesn't complain when I remove libgtkspell-dev
[03:57] <azeem> is there a way to display the devices during the installer? lspci does not seem to be around
[03:58] <hornbeck> sivang: I agree completely
[03:58] <hornbeck> sivang, plovs, asw, sparkes: I am going to spend some time with the family right now so I will be away for awhile.
[03:59] <sivang> hornbeck : why thank you. feew, I feared for you silenting suddenly :)
[03:59] <sparkes> hornbeck, see you later
[03:59] <sivang> hornbeck : c'ya laterz then
[03:59] <bob2> tseng: was I right about the other two?
[03:59] <sparkes> I am about to head off out with my son as well
[03:59] <hornbeck> well I guess I am not leaving afterall
[03:59] <hornbeck> my little girl is going back to bed :-)
[04:00] <hornbeck> sivang: I was silent because I was talking with the wife
[04:00] <sivang> hornbeck : ok cool ;)
[04:01] <hornbeck> sivang: I don't want anyone appointing anyone with out CC approval or at least a higher up saying so
[04:01] <sivang> ofcourse. I am adding to the CC agenda as we speak
[04:04] <plovs> sivang, link?
[04:04] <sivang> plovs : sec, still revising it
[04:08] <hornbeck> if random letters start appearing from me sorry, I have a six month old on my lap
[04:10] <plovs> hornbeck, we'l think it's haiku wisdom
[04:10] <hornbeck> yes, please do
[04:10] <hornbeck> :-)
[04:12] <sivang> done.
[04:12] <sivang> http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/CommunityCouncilAgenda?action=show
[04:14] <hornbeck> sivang: looks great
[04:15] <sivang> hornbeck : thanks :) I'm glad you're ok with that.
[04:15] <hornbeck> sivang: why would I not be?
[04:16] <sivang> hornbeck : Just my paranoic, "I hope everyone is ok with what I'm doing"  self :))
[04:16] <hornbeck> plovs: good thinking
[04:16] <tseng> hornbeck: have you done any beagle packaging, or just a howto?
[04:17] <hornbeck> tseng: I am still not to sure on packaging
[04:17] <sivang> anyway guys, I have to go now, I'll see you tonight or tommorow maybe..
[04:17] <hornbeck> tseng: so just the howto
[04:17] <hornbeck> I would love to learn to package
[04:17] <tseng> oh sure
[04:17] <tseng> google debian new maint guide
[04:17] <hornbeck> sivang: later
[04:18] <hornbeck> tseng: I have it bookmarked, just have not really had the time to read all of it
[04:18] <tseng> ok
[04:18] <hornbeck> kinda long
[04:18] <tseng> i suppose.
[04:18] <hornbeck> I did make a inotify kernel package :-)
[04:18] <plovs> we need debian packaging in three easy steps, that would be nice
[04:18] <tseng> hehe make-kpkg
[04:18] <hornbeck> a couple people said it worked
[04:19] <hornbeck> tseng: I was proud
[04:19] <tseng> hm yeah.. i think a simple template will just work for many autotooled apps?
[04:20] <hornbeck> tseng: as I move along I would like to move more into the developer stage of things
[04:20] <tseng> i think thom already has dbus-cvs
[04:20] <hornbeck> nice, I need to get ahold of a copy than
[04:20] <tseng> http://people.ubuntu.com/~thom/
[04:20] <hornbeck> I have mine all rigged up
[04:21] <hornbeck> heh, I already have that in my sources
[04:21] <tseng> inotify will hopefully make 2.6.10
[04:21] <hornbeck> I am hoping
[04:21] <tseng> and just happen in Hoary
[04:22] <hornbeck> beagle is nice
[04:22] <hornbeck> I use best to find all the stuff I look for now
[04:22] <tseng> is there a workable beagle release tarball
[04:22] <tseng> or just cvs?
[04:22] <hornbeck> I think just cvs
[04:22] <tseng> hm that sucks a bit
[04:22] <hornbeck> cvs has all the new stuff, the only tarball I know of is way outdated
[04:23] <hornbeck> I could tar the cvs for ya :-)
[04:24] <tseng> well just trying to figure out a way around autogen.sh
[04:24] <hornbeck> how come?
[04:25] <tseng> well, ive been using cdbs templates for pkgs
[04:25] <tseng> and they call ./configure
[04:25] <hornbeck> well I could send you a already ./autogen'ed package or would that not work?
[04:26] <tseng> and iirc overriding a cdbs function adds your stuff to the end
[04:26] <tseng> possibly, i guess if its already autogen'd you can just run a clean configure again
[04:26] <tseng> i can checkout cvs and do that myself.
[04:28] <bob2> beagle requires dbus cvs, too
[04:28] <tseng> we've been over that
[04:28] <tseng> ~thom
[04:29] <bob2> ah, right
[04:29] <tseng> hah
[04:29] <tseng> "let's build us some beagle shall we?"
[04:30] <hornbeck> tseng: let me know how it goes
[04:30] <hornbeck> cause beagle is just so sexy
[04:30] <tseng> hm so what is the cvs naming scheme
[04:30] <hornbeck> beagle
[04:30] <tseng> im looking at dbus+cvs and i dont grok the string
[04:30] <tseng> no, for packages.
[04:30] <hornbeck> oh
[04:31] <hornbeck> I found no dbus-cvs
[04:31] <hornbeck> it is just dbus
[04:31] <tseng> _0.22+cvs.$datestamp
[04:31] <hornbeck> ahh
[04:32] <hornbeck> well I am going to make some food, be back in a few
[04:33] <daniels> Kamion: alright, thanks for the insights
[04:34] <tseng> morn daniels 
[04:34] <tseng> could anyone point me to a debian cvs snapshot policy
[04:35] <tseng> hm found.
[04:35] <bob2> "don't do it (except in experimental)"
[04:36] <bob2> oh, version
[04:36] <tseng> well that goes without saying
[04:36] <bob2> hm, tomboy built fine on ppc
[04:36] <bob2> do you want the .deb to put in your repository?
[04:36] <Kamion> the policy manual's bit about version numbers would be the obvious place
[04:36] <tseng> bob2: sure
[04:36] <Kamion> section 3.2.1
[04:36] <tseng> bob2: mxpxpod already sent me muine and something else
[04:36] <bob2> for ppc/
[04:36] <tseng> Kamion: ya just found, thanks.
[04:36] <tseng> yes for ppc
[04:37] <bob2> hm, didn't see them in your archive
[04:37] <tseng> ah i have tomboy
[04:37] <tseng> bob2: didnt upload yet
[04:37] <bob2> ah, ok
[04:37] <tseng> i can throw ppc in the same dir, right?
[04:39] <tseng> bob2: try an update for muine + tomboy
[04:40] <bob2> they can go in the same dir, just remember to rerun your Package-generation tool
[04:40] <bob2> cool, thanks!
[04:40] <tseng> nps
[04:49] <tseng> bbiab
[05:09] <tseng> so those dbus+cvs are either not recent enough, or just dont have dbus# bindings
[05:09] <hornbeck> that is what I ran into I think
[05:09] <hornbeck> so I just build dbus from cvs
[05:09] <tseng> ok i will start with that
[05:09] <hornbeck> good deal
[05:10] <hornbeck> man it sucks to have to use windows for stuff, I had not installed windows on one of my computers in three years
[05:10] <hornbeck> and last night had to for school
[05:40] <mainlylinux> hi azeem
[05:40] <mainlylinux> I'll move my questions here
[05:40] <azeem> hi
[05:41] <mainlylinux> can we make ntpupdate go into the background once it's called?
[05:41] <mainlylinux> oops ntpdate
[05:41] <mainlylinux> and call S99gpm sooner in the boot process?
[05:42] <mainlylinux> am I right that there is no fat32 support in the default kernel?
[05:42] <Kamion> I don't think you're right there, no
[05:43] <mainlylinux> I tried to mount -t fat32 and got an error - should I just be using mount -t fat?
[05:43] <chrisa> vfat
[05:43] <Kamion> fat32 isn't listed in mount(8) as far as I can see
[05:43] <mainlylinux> ah
[05:43] <mainlylinux> gotcha thanks
[05:44] <mainlylinux> as far as my previous questions about the boot process, is anyone here from the ubuntu-dev team to hear them?
[05:45] <chrisa> File a wishlist bug perhaps?
[05:45] <mainlylinux> ok sounds good
[05:46] <mainlylinux> how about the wiki, anyone here have admin access there?  I want to edit a page that's marked immutable
[05:47] <Kamion> mainlylinux: you're not logged in
[05:48] <Kamion> mainlylinux: I think the things you've mentioned are covered in http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/HoaryHedgehog
[05:48] <Kamion> " Start gdm earlier
[05:48] <Kamion> #
[05:48] <Kamion> Don't try DHCP if we don't have a link beat.
[05:48] <Kamion>     *
[05:48] <Kamion>       Double-whammy improvement: you don't get DHCP timing out and trying an old lease when you're not plugged in, and you don't get NTP timing out thus.
[05:48] <Kamion> "
[05:49] <kylem> is that really pronounced as 'whorey'?
[05:49] <mainlylinux> is hoary the next version?
[05:49] <Kamion> mainlylinux: yes
[05:49] <Kamion> kylem: that would depend on your accent, I guess :-)
[05:49] <Kamion> (it's not in mine)
[05:50] <kylem> hmm.
[05:54] <sivang> Kamion : have you gotten a rather, vauge email from me lately? :)
[05:55] <sivang> Kamion : I forgot to state what I was referring there, but it was the gui installer :)
[06:20] <Kamion> sivang: yes; have you done any d-i work?
[06:20] <Kamion> sivang: I'd suggest that Debian would be a better place to learn that than Ubuntu, really; you can be surrounded by far more people who are expert in the installer there
[06:20] <Kamion> chrisa: ayup
[06:21] <Kamion> chrisa: may not make it for Hoary, but it's something I've already done some work on
[06:34] <hornbeck> Kamion: lame question, does d-i stand for debian installer?
[06:38] <Kamion> hornbeck: yes
[06:38] <hornbeck> ok thought so
[06:38] <Kamion> particular implementation rather than just generically "whatever software happens to be responsible for installing Debian", though
[06:38] <Kamion> the successor to boot-floppies
[06:42] <srbaker> wonder if dpkg-repackage could be used to do a warty install from livecd
[06:45] <Kamion> the procedure documented in the installation manual for installing from another Unix system is probably a better idea
[07:10] <tseng> hm
[07:10] <tseng> has anyone made a stab at a libdbus-cil ?
[08:02] <sivang> Kamion : ok, but *you* are one of the known experts as well :)
[08:04] <Kamion> sivang: I am only one overworked person :-)
[08:05] <Kamion> I'd much rather have help from people who've already gained experience in the Debian hothouse, because one person is not enough to both teach others and do the work
[08:05] <Kamion> if we had several installer people already, things might be different
[08:09] <sivang> Kamion : ok, no prob.
[08:10] <Kamion> the #debian-boot crew are a nice bunch though
[08:12] <sivang> Kamion : yes I know :) you once was one of them ;-)
[08:13] <sivang> Kamion : sorry, that went like something else, I meant you are still one of them hehe
[08:13] <sivang> basically as I'm coming to understand, Ubuntu is not the place for the less experienced, faint of heart, uninitiated d-i person :)
[08:14] <Kamion> that's not necessarily true, but right now the gtk frontend is one of the hardest possible places to dive in
[08:14] <Kamion> my bug list may provide less intimidating introductions :-)
[08:24] <pitti> mdz: here?
[08:24] <mdz> pitti: yes
[08:25] <pitti> mdz: my network was down today, I will deal with gaim now
[08:25] <mdz> ok
[08:25] <pitti> mdz: why do the recent security updates appear in the sources list, but not in Packages?
[08:25] <mdz> pitti: ?
[08:25] <pitti> mdz: cups/xpdf are compiled and at the mirror, but my apt packages file is still 0 bytes
[08:26] <mdz> pitti: powerpc?
[08:26] <pitti> mdz: hmm, odd, the packages file on the mirror has the files..
[08:26] <pitti> mdz: no, i386
[08:26] <pitti> mdz: I apt-get updated several times now
[08:26] <pitti> mdz: does it work for you?
[08:27] <mdz> pitti: they are there on archive.ubuntu.com
[08:27] <pitti> mdz: /var/lib/apt/lists/security.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_warty-security_main_binary-i386_Packages is 0 bytes
[08:27] <pitti> mdz: yes, that's the odd thing
[08:27] <mdz> pitti: hmm, security.ubuntu.com has two IPs
[08:27] <mdz> elmo: ?
[08:28] <pitti> mdz: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/warty-security/Contents-i386.gz is empty
[08:28] <pitti> mdz: is that on purpose?
[08:28] <mdz> pitti: it probably just hasn't been generated yet; Contents is not very important
[08:28] <mdz> I think it happens once per week or something?
[08:28] <pitti> mdz: hmm, still this is quite odd... apt-get update should update the package index
[08:28] <pitti> mdz: well, if it works for you, I will investigate this on my side
[08:28] <elmo> -rw-rw-r--    1 archvsync archvsync     3648 2004-10-23 03:08 /srv/ftp.root/ubuntu/dists/warty-security/main/binary-i386/Packages.gz
[08:29] <elmo> -rw-rw-r--    1 archvsync archvsync     3648 Oct 23 03:08 /srv/ftp.root/ubuntu/dists/warty-security/main/binary-i386/Packages.gz
[08:29] <mdz> elmo: wondering why security.ubuntu.com points to both .138 and .155
[08:29] <elmo> look fine to me
[08:29] <mdz> and what .155 is
[08:29] <carlos> it works also here (ppc), I think I got them yesterday
[08:30] <elmo> mdz: we round-robined stuff in preparation for the release.  we had to undo archive.ubuntu.com 'cos people we're using it to reach cdimages which we don't have the space for on mirnyy
[08:30] <mdz> yes, it is certainly working in general
[08:30] <elmo> 155 is mirnyy
[08:30] <elmo> aka releases.u.c
[08:30] <mdz> elmo: and the security mirror on mirnyy is up to date?
[08:30] <elmo> yes
[08:30] <elmo> that's the two lines I pasted above
[08:30] <mdz> ok
[08:30] <elmo> auckland and mirnyy
[08:30] <mdz> pitti: no idea what your problem is
[08:30] <T-Bone> mako: ping?
[08:31] <pitti> mdz: okay, thanks; I'll investigate further
[08:59] <mako> T-Bone: hey there
[08:59] <T-Bone> hey mako
[09:01] <tseng> hm, should dbus-sharp be called libdbus-cil ?
[09:14] <hornbeck> tseng: it would fit the other's than
[09:14] <tseng> yesm
[09:18] <mako> T-Bone: whats up
[10:03] <pitti> mdz: https://chinstrap.warthogs.hbd.com/~pitti/ has an updated gaim package and an interdiff (with a very verbose changelog)
[10:03] <pitti> mdz: Debian already has 1.0.2, so it does not need a patch 
[10:04] <pitti> mdz: is there any more formal staging area for such updates for you to approve?
[10:24] <mdz> pitti: I am happy for you to upload them to the security queue immediately
[10:24] <mdz> pitti: I prefer to test the official binaries anyway
[10:24] <mdz> they are not published until amber is run
[10:25] <pitti> mdz: okay, here we go; uploaded
[10:25] <pitti> mdz: can you just remove the upload from the queue if there was sth wrong?
[10:25] <mdz> pitti: no, but we can supersede it trivially with a new upload
[10:26] <pitti> mdz: ah, okay
[10:26] <pitti> mdz: it would be nice to have a staging area that is already autobuilt while waiting for approval
[10:26] <mdz> pitti: that is essentially what it is
[10:26] <mdz> they are autobuilt as soon as you upload them
[10:26] <pitti> mdz: elmo said that I should not upload unapproved updates
[10:27] <Keybuk> mdz: btw, what's the warty-updates distribution for?
[10:27] <mdz> Keybuk: non-security bugfixes for stable
[10:28] <Keybuk> but we've not documented that anywhere, and warty hasn't been shipped with any mention of it in /etc/apt/sources.list
[10:28] <mdz> pitti: as long as you get the version numbering right, pretty much anything else can be fixed trivially
[10:28] <mdz> Keybuk: it's also empty
[10:28] <Keybuk> in fact, the comment in sources.list specifically seems to say that the ordinary warty archive is going to get the updates
[10:28] <mdz> Keybuk: it does?
[10:28] <Keybuk> it does how I read it
[10:29] <mdz> Keybuk: if you think it needs clarification, file a bug against base-config with suggested text
[10:29] <Keybuk> the way we've set it up now, I don't think we *can* use warty-updates
[10:29] <Keybuk> if we were going to do that, we should've shipped warty with it in sources.list
[10:30] <mdz> Keybuk: it's no different than proposed-updates
[10:31] <mdz> it's opt-in
[10:31] <Keybuk> do the updates end up in warty when approved?
[10:31] <mdz> no
[10:31] <Keybuk> so warty isn't getting any bug fixes?
[10:32] <mdz> "warty" / Ubuntu 4.10 is static
[10:32] <mdz> according to sabdfl there shall be no point releases
[10:32] <Keybuk> right, I misunderstood that then :)
[10:32] <Keybuk> I assumed we were still going to do occasional major-bug fixes to it
[10:33] <mdz> we will, but they'll be kept separate
[10:33] <Keybuk> fair enough I guess; would've still been nice to document this somewhere for users :o)
[11:05] <__daniel> re
[11:24] <sabdfl> Keybuk: yes, we should have mentioned warty-updates in sources.list, i didn't realise the distinction myself until after release
[11:24] <sabdfl> but mdz is right: security-updates only will generate better trust with sysadmins
[11:25] <sabdfl> and with our regular release schedule a point release of warty seems silly unless it's a disastrous bug we have to fix
[11:26] <sabdfl> what we might do, if warty-updates keeps making warty better, is release warty again when hoary goes out, as "enterprise grade", but we've not really put any thought into the work required to keep fixing bugs in warty, and no clear idea how to fund that sustainably
[11:40] <Kamion> enterprise-grade> the five-year thing?
[11:50] <pitti> sjoerd: Hey, pmount already made it through NEW. That was quick...
[11:50] <pitti> sjoerd: it should go into the archive with tomorrow's katie run
[11:51] <sjoerd> pitti: saw it.. hal 0.4.0 made it too 
[11:51] <pitti> sjoerd: oh, nice
[11:52] <pitti> sjoerd: let the future begin :-)
[11:52] <Kamion> #2698 is kind of d'oh; fortunately not critical ...
[11:54] <sjoerd> pitti: g-v-m 1.0.2 is going to sarge tonight too