[12:00] <mdz> Kamion: warty has bigger warts than that :-)
[12:01] <lucas_> Hi, is there some info somewhere on the wiki about how to build custom distribs based on ubuntu ?
[12:01] <tseng> lucas_: i think thats a goal of hoary
[12:01] <Kamion> mdz: oh yeah
[12:02] <lucas_> tseng: arg, not before hoary ? I would have liked to build a warty-derivate ...
[12:02] <mdz> lucas_: you can certainly derive from warty if you would like
[12:03] <mdz> there is no step-by-step howto
[12:04] <lucas_> mdz: who could give me an overview of how to build a derivate that only adds a dozen of packages ?
[12:05] <mdz> lucas_: it would be very nearly the same process as building a Debian derivative
[12:05] <lucas_> if I knew how to build a debian derivate, I wouldn't be there asking :)
[12:05] <Kamion> the archives of the debian-custom mailing list may have useful information
[12:06] <Kamion> I think there's a "debian-cdd" howto (or some such name)
[12:06] <jdub> pants off dudes
[12:06] <tseng> zi[
[12:06] <tseng> *p
[12:07] <lucas_> ok, thanks for the pointer
[12:07] <jdub> ow! morning! cold!
[12:07] <mdz> I think I am learning about this "cold"
[12:08] <mdz> it was only ~16C yesterday
[12:08] <Kamion> wuss
[12:08] <mdz> I had to wear sleeves!
[12:09] <jdub> rock, the dude who ITPed ifolder has passed it over :)
[12:14] <Mitario> lo everyone
[12:15] <mjg59> jdub: Make ifolder non-sucky
[12:15] <jdub> tberman is helping with that
[12:15] <jdub> hey Mitario 
[12:15] <tseng> or use epittance instead
[12:16] <jdub> it performs a different function
[12:18] <tseng> 1
[12:35] <tseng> i think beagle cvs is broken atm, make in the top dir does nothing.
[12:35] <tseng> so much for packaging
[12:58] <pitti> Night
[01:05] <mdz> Kamion: which d-i bit creates /sbin/unconfigured.sh?
[01:21] <lucas_> mdz: which d-i bit copies all .deb from the cdrom to the HD ?
[01:21] <elmo_> archive-copier
[01:21] <lucas_> I thought it was archive-copier, but I read its code
[01:21] <lucas_> from the code and apt-cdrom's manpage, it only adds the cdrom entry in /etc/apt/sources.list
[01:21] <lucas_> was apt-cdrom hacked to change that ?
[01:21] <tseng> bob2: i see the syntax error in tomboy now
[01:21] <lucas_> elmo: I read the apt-cdrom source code and still can't find a place where it copies the .deb to the HD.
[01:21] <tseng> hornbeck: finishing up libdbus-cil pkg now
[01:21] <tseng> hornbeck: care to test on a clean box?
[01:24] <mdz> lucas_: apt-cdrom does not do any copying. archive-copier does
[01:25] <lucas_> oh, got it
[01:25] <lucas_> I was only reading the "prebaseconfig" script
[01:25] <lucas_> postinst makes more sense :)
[01:26] <hornbeck> tseng: yes I would like to try it
[01:26] <hornbeck> is it in your repos?
[01:26] <tseng> one moment
[01:26] <tseng> and not on the box you already installed dbus from cvs on
[01:26] <tseng> since we wont easily know if the dep is filled by the package, or something you installed already
[01:27] <tseng> eg, do we need anything more than the dll's
[01:27] <hornbeck> tseng: I do not think so, I could be wrong though
[01:28] <hornbeck> its rare but it has been known to happen :)
[01:28] <tseng> hm i guess it needs the .pc also
[01:28] <tseng> oops
[01:31] <tseng> daniels: ping
[01:35] <lucas_> mdz: which bit of d-i installs the packages in ubuntu-desktop but not in base after the reboot ?
[01:36] <mdz> lucas_: base-config
[01:36] <lucas_> oh ok
[01:38] <tseng> hornbeck: libdbus-cil is in my repo, with all the +cvs dbus stuff
[01:39] <tseng> hornbeck: i took it from thom so im not sure if it is new enough for beagle.. dated 10/7
[01:39] <hornbeck> tseng: I will check in alittle while
[01:39] <hornbeck> I am doing school work right now
[01:40] <hornbeck> any clue why blam resets to defaults everytime it launches?
[01:42] <lucas_> ok, I now have a much clearer view of how d-i works. I'll write a nice howto if I succeed in building an Ubuntu-derivate =) thanks for answering my questions ; good night.
[01:52] <tseng> oh hornbeck 
[01:52] <tseng> could you send me that tarball after all, my cvs checkout seems b0rk
[01:53] <tseng> when you have a chance that is
[02:02] <__daniel> sleep tight
[02:12] <hornbeck> yeah tseng
[02:13] <hornbeck> can I get a mail for you
[02:13] <tseng> brandon@smarterits.com
[02:14] <hornbeck> on its way
[02:17] <hornbeck> evolution is crapping out on sending attachments
[02:17] <hornbeck> will try to send from other account
[02:23] <hornbeck> tseng: now it is on its way
[02:25] <tseng> hornbeck: er dude
[02:25] <tseng> i meant beagle
[02:25] <tseng> did i say dbus?
[02:26] <hornbeck> haha, yeah
[02:26] <hornbeck> ok I will send beagle
[02:26] <tseng> thanks
[02:27] <hornbeck> tseng: now that one is on its way
[02:28] <tseng> great
[02:28] <hornbeck> tseng: you should shoot for a gecko-sharp-0.6 also :-)
[02:28] <tseng> perhaps
[02:28] <hornbeck> nice
[02:39] <srbaker_> okay, after a full day of ubuntu on my laptop, i'm even more impressed than before.  great work, guys
[02:46] <mdz> thanks
[02:53] <jdub> "
[02:53] <jdub> i've done with install snd_via82xx /bin/true"
[02:53] <jdub> ^ eeeeeek!
[03:06] <lamont> jdub/mdz: I think rc2 == release.  thoughts?
[03:27] <hornbeck> kinda neat how when you move around the website you are logged in one page than not another, good way to keep people from being able to do anything
[03:33] <hornbeck> hmmm
[03:49] <mdz> hornbeck: you can use https://site-edit.ubuntulinux.org/ until that's fixed
[03:53] <hornbeck> mdz: thanks
[03:55] <hornbeck> man that is way to complicated
[03:57] <srbaker_> anyone know how i can find out when to expect ubuntu cds?  i'm planning our LUG meeting, and i want to know which one my "introduction to ubuntu" talk (with cds) will take place
[04:00] <mdz> hornbeck: it's a bug
[04:01] <mdz> lamont: I think we have no choice :-)
[04:01] <mdz> srbaker_: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2004-October/007832.html
[04:20] <mdz> aw, daniels beat me to it
[04:48] <lamont> mdz: true, I think there are bugs that would be nice to have fixed, but I think they mostly come back to hwdetection diffs and minifo :-(
[04:51] <daniels> mdz: quick draw, yo
[05:02] <fabbione> morning guys
[05:03] <daniels> morning papa fabbione
[05:03] <hornbeck> good morning
[05:03] <hornbeck> night here :-)
[05:06] <fabbione> hey kid
[05:08] <fabbione> daniels: we will probably have a kitchen the first week you will be here :-)))
[05:08] <daniels> awesome!
[05:08] <fabbione> and hopefully the bigger office during the second one
[05:08] <daniels> your timezone shift is bad, dude
[05:08] <fabbione> i know
[05:10] <fabbione> it's not like i am having fun waking up at 5 am every day
[05:22] <amu> ;) 
[05:30] <fabbione> amu: you are not supposed to be awake either ;)
[05:37] <amu> fabbione: correct, i lie straight on a slopematte in the southseas, 2 pretty girls make breakfast for me, wow i dream stilD[D[D[D[Dl 
[05:53] <fabbione> amu: eheheh
[07:26] <doko> morning fabbione, did you get the debhelper things working?
[07:41] <fabbione> xmlconfig.c:912: error: `program_invocation_short_name' undeclared (first use in this function)
[07:41] <fabbione> and errno.h is included
[07:41] <fabbione> what am I missing here?
[07:42] <Keybuk> #define __USE_GNU ?
[07:43] <daniels> Keybuk: er, _GNU_SOURCE?
[07:44] <Keybuk> Redhat found a vulnerability in fileutils (ls and mkdir), that could allow a remote attacker to execute arbitrary code with root privileges.
[07:44] <Keybuk> ^ ouch
[07:45] <Keybuk> though highly odd *how* you'd do that without making ls or mkdir setuid root
[07:46] <Keybuk> Received: from 2ens11.uta.edu (2ens11.uta.edu [129.107.2.122] ) by
[07:46] <Keybuk>         menubar.gnome.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951303B0D8A for
[07:46] <Keybuk>         <gnome-announce-list@gnome.org>; Sun, 24 Oct 2004 18:00:13 -0400 (EDT)
[07:46] <daniels> Keybuk: also, Red Hat know how to spell their company name
[07:46] <Keybuk> also the instructions are to untar, build and install a random tar file
[07:47] <Keybuk> RH ship security updates as RPM
[07:47] <daniels> interestingly, they ship 'fileutils-patch.bin' in that tarfile
[07:47] <daniels> which is an RPM
[07:48] <Keybuk> ah yes, bit red notice on RH.com
[07:48] <fabbione> daniels, Keybuk: thanks...
[07:48] <fabbione> i wonder more why it wasn't set automatically
[07:49] <Keybuk> fabbione: you have to set it to say you're happy that your code is no longer C99/POSIX/blah and you're happy about that
[07:49] <daniels> also, _BSD_SOURCE, _POSIX_SOURCE, and _XOPEN_SOURCE
[07:50] <daniels> the latter two accept numbers as to your level of posix/x/openness
[07:53] <fabbione> hmm
[07:53] <fabbione> the only lib complaining about it is libgl
[07:53] <fabbione> i wonder if others are affected too
[07:54] <fabbione> Keybuk: this is dri (black magic wodoo) stuff
[07:54] <fabbione> very difficult to say
[07:55] <daniels> ehm
[07:55] <fabbione> daniels: what do you think about confining the -D_GNU_SOURCE to libgl ?
[07:55] <daniels> you know how I worked out which flags most modular libs used?
[07:55] <daniels> buildd.d.o
[07:56] <daniels> if you can do per-file cflags in imake, even better
[07:56] <daniels> maybe even just a #define _GNU_SOURCE rather than -D
[07:56] <fabbione> daniels: yes i can do that
[08:06] <fabbione> daniels: btw.. all these little changes are just because of -DUseInstalled
[08:06] <fabbione> a real pain in the butt
[08:07] <fabbione> and it needs to be done at Imake level
[08:09] <fabbione> but i can still confine it to that specific dir
[08:09] <fabbione> there is no need to force it on the entire lib
[08:17] <daniels> fabbione: building mesa/glx and the server separately is a huge pain in the arse
[08:17] <daniels> right now you can't do it and keep dri
[08:18] <daniels> that's why my monolithic tree still contains lib/GL and extras/Mesa
[08:18] <daniels> (also, Xfont is really bizzaro, but that's another story)
[08:18] <fabbione> daniels: yes i know they circular build-dep
[08:18] <fabbione> i already have the xserver source tree as dependency
[08:19] <daniels> hm
[08:19] <fabbione> right now libgl is the worst crap i have seen in terms of Imakefile
[08:20] <jdub> i'm glad you guys can bond over X horrors
[08:20] <daniels> fabbione: isn't it great?
[08:20] <daniels> jdub: sort of like old war stories
[08:20] <fabbione> jdub: all this stuff is coming out because we are splitting the tree
[08:20] <jdub> YAY!
[08:20] <daniels> 'and then there was the time I realised half of the XKB code was probably exploitable if someone tried hard enough'
[08:20] <fabbione> daniels: yes, but that doesn't scare me too much
[08:22] <fabbione> jdub: as i already told Mark, the amount of work is much higher than what i planned in the beginning
[08:22] <fabbione> jdub: unfortunatly i realized it later
[08:22] <fabbione> but we will do our best
[08:24] <sladen> daniels: ''But I just typed "2*&)$}{;')(*!" at the keyboard..''
[08:26] <vorlon> daniels: so how did you happen upon the Boeing glider story?
[08:27] <Keybuk> yeah was reading that, is a good telling of it :o)
[08:27] <Keybuk> I first heard about it reading some racetrack trivia stuff
[08:27] <daniels> vorlon: chris blizzard linked to it on his blog
[08:27] <vorlon> ah. :)
[08:28] <Keybuk> there's several examples of races being interrupted by planes doing emergency landings (lots of race tracks are old airfields), but that's the only one which was a commerical liner
[08:30] <jdub> although, knowing your pilot can glide the plane in if there's a problem is kinda nice
[08:31] <lifeless> depends on the plane really :)
[08:32] <vorlon> sure, though they showed that the glide ratio on those things really is lousy, and there aren't all that many airline pilots who do know how to fly gliders. :)
[08:32] <jdub> dude, if it's a 747-400, i still want to know the guy can glide it
[08:32] <Keybuk> indeed; the natural state for an out-of-fuel jetliner is "crater"
[08:34] <Keybuk> Silverstone is pretty fantastic for that; it's still an in-use airfield as well as a F1 Grand Prix race track -- on race day a fleet of helicopters arrives and lands in the middle of the track as all the rich kids get around the parking problems
[08:35] <fabbione> Keybuk: how was the race yesterday?
[08:35] <fabbione> i don't have a TV yet :)
[08:35] <Keybuk> fabbione: got a bit wet, but no major casualties
[08:35] <fabbione> who won?
[08:35] <Keybuk> Montoya
[08:35] <fabbione> argh
[08:35] <Keybuk> Kimi 2, Barichello 3
[08:35] <fabbione> schummy?
[08:36] <Keybuk> somewhere a little way back, he toasted his car in the wall during practice so had to take an engine change
[08:36] <daniels> montoya!
[08:36] <Keybuk> fabbione: you seen the rule changes for 2005 yet?
[08:36] <fabbione> Keybuk: nope.. i only read the one you posted here
[08:36] <fabbione> about no tyres change during the race
[08:37] <fabbione> that is going to be sooooo boring
[08:37] <Keybuk> front wing height and rear wing size reduced; so will be interesting whether we'll see 1980-era wings-fixed-to-noses again
[08:37] <fabbione> i hope there is at least the exception in case of rain/dry weather
[08:37] <jdub> Keybuk: you'd land a plane on alicia silverstone? bastardo!
[08:37] <Keybuk> no tyre changes during race (except for environmental conditions)
[08:37] <Keybuk> in fact, same tyres have to last for both Qualy *and* the race
[08:37] <fabbione> amen
[08:38] <fabbione> we will see more cars out with falt tyres than anything else
[08:38] <Keybuk> which is interesting that they didn't forbid refuelling as well; because the pit boys won't have much to do now
[08:38] <Keybuk> engines have to last for two race weekends, not just one
[08:39] <fabbione> so if one engine blows up
[08:39] <Keybuk> 9/10 teams want to eliminate tyre testing entirely, so effectively use standardised tyres for all teams
[08:39] <fabbione> you are out for 2 races
[08:39] <Keybuk> fabbione: no, just have to take a 10-position penalty
[08:40] <fabbione> bah that sucks
[08:40] <Keybuk> 9/10 teams want to reduce testing to just 10 days throughout the entire season
[08:40] <fabbione> it's getting to complicate
[08:40] <Keybuk> Qualy is going to be Saturday afternoon for a first low-fuel run in previous race finishing order
[08:40] <Keybuk> then on Sunday morning, they'll run again with race fuel in reverse order of previous finishing
[08:40] <Keybuk> Position will be based on an aggregate of both times
[08:41] <fabbione> why don't they just use /dev/urandom?
[08:41] <fabbione> it will save them tons of headackes
[08:42] <Keybuk> heh, I still think they should go back to the *original* Qualy format, but with the addition that you have to run laps in 15 minute windows (to prevent everyone going out with 10 minutes left on the clock)
[08:43] <sivang> morning all
[08:43] <Keybuk> next year's going to be kinda interesting
[08:43] <fabbione> Keybuk: i think they should go back to the original. that's it.. same as it was at Prost and Senna time
[08:43] <fabbione> hi sivang 
[08:43] <Keybuk> Minardi are probably safe, they have their own engines they can run
[08:43] <Keybuk> Jordan are probably safe, they are rumoured to be running Toyota engines next year
[08:43] <sivang> fabbione : morning, how are you? :)
[08:44] <Keybuk> Jaguar are still in the shit though, no buyer yet
[08:44] <fabbione> sivang: fine thank and you?
[08:44] <fabbione> Keybuk: too bad...
[08:44] <Keybuk> fabbione: will be amusing, because Ferrari will have to run a third car if they drop out
[08:44] <fabbione> i wonder when they will allow more than 2 cars x team
[08:45] <fabbione> Keybuk: uh why?
[08:45] <Keybuk> it's not a matter of "allow", it'll be a requirement for the top teams
[08:45] <Keybuk> F1 rules state a minimum of 20 cars must run
[08:45] <fabbione> ahhh
[08:45] <Keybuk> the third car won't be a points-scorer
[08:45] <Keybuk> so if you happen to be in the third Ferrari, you don't count
[08:45] <fabbione> and what's the point of having a third car than?
[08:45] <fabbione> just to fill up the grid?
[08:45] <sivang> fabbione : not bad at all, I see it's race car discussion day? :)
[08:45] <lifeless> thaytan: you shrink you
[08:45] <Keybuk> it counts for the driver, not the teeam
[08:45] <lifeless> bah. sorry
[08:46] <fabbione> sivang: well yeah.. i don't have a tv yet in the new house
[08:46] <fabbione> and Keybuk is updating me
[08:46] <Keybuk> though I think it'd be sweet if they let Jordan and Minardi have the third cars, and be points-scorers :)
[08:46] <fabbione> Keybuk: understandable... will the team decide which cars will bring points to the team or they will pick the 2 highest score for each race?
[08:47] <Keybuk> 2 highest runners, I believe
[08:47] <sivang> fabbione : don't major sports channels broadcast on the internet as well?
[08:47] <Keybuk> though Brundle was being cynical and suggesting that a Ferrari 1, 2, 3 is the last thing the sport needs next year :o)
[08:47] <Keybuk> sivang: no, F1 isn't net-broadcast
[08:48] <sivang> Keybuk : this is an european exlusive sport channel I suppose? (I know Eurosport, ESPN for the states etc)
[08:48] <Keybuk> sivang: F1 = FIA Formula 1
[08:49] <sivang> Keybuk : Ah so that's the famous formula 1 races , those are better watched from within the audience ;)
[08:49] <fabbione> Keybuk: ahahah that would own the F1.. Ferrari 1 2 3 :P
[08:49] <Keybuk> actually, I tend to disagree there ... they are fantastic to attend; but you get a better race if you watch at home
[08:50] <fabbione> yeah
[08:50] <fabbione> you don't see anything at the race
[08:50] <fabbione> it gets too messy
[08:50] <daniels> it's way too much to go here
[08:50] <daniels> prices start at about $au450 or so
[08:50] <Keybuk> fabbione: not really likely though, Ferrari are notably mid-field at the moment -- all the other teams have caught up; even Schumy is notably off-pace
[08:51] <Keybuk> it's almost as if he's bored, he's made silly mistakes in the last several races
[08:53] <fabbione> Keybuk: yeah well... he is demotivated after winning the championship
[08:54] <Keybuk> which is odd for Michael, he's normally even more motivated afterwards and just driving for fun
[08:55] <Keybuk> he is the "oldest man in F1" now ... though I give him a few more years yet, I expect we're starting to see the peak of his career
[08:55] <fabbione> yeah i agree
[08:56] <Keybuk> still waiting to see who'll be in the 2nd Williams
[08:56] <Keybuk> and, if they have to, 3rd Ferrari and BAR
[08:56] <Keybuk> (I guess the latter will be Anthony Davidson)
[08:57] <fabbione> probably Fittipaldi?
[08:58] <fabbione> isn't he the test driver for Ferrari?
[08:58] <Keybuk> no idea
[08:59] <daniels> yay Webber
[09:08] <fabbione> make[1] : Leaving directory `/usr/src/xorg/xorg-lib-gl-6.8.1/build-tree/xc/lib/GL'
[09:08] <fabbione> touch stampdir/build
[09:08] <fabbione> YES
[09:08] <fabbione> finally
[09:09] <fabbione> daniels: isn't about time to sign my gpg keys?
[09:09] <jdub> fabbione: last time i asked daniels about signing your key, he said he wasn't sure that you really were 'Fabio, The Most Beautiful Man In The World'
[09:12] <fabbione> jdub: you didn't even want to exchange id's with me :(
[09:12] <fabbione> vorlon: eheh
[09:13] <jdub> fabbione: we've already exchanged, haven't we? at the original uk meeting
[09:13] <fabbione> jdub: only for one of my key
[09:13] <fabbione> i am searching sigs for my new shiny 4096RSA key and the canonical key ;)
[09:14] <fabbione> gpg --list-sigs fabbione@fabbione.net |grep Jeff
[09:14] <fabbione> $
[09:15] <fabbione> so that means that even if we exachanged... you didn't sign
[09:15] <fabbione> ;)
[09:15] <jdub> i didn't ;)
[09:15] <fabbione> you suck :P
[09:17] <pitti> Morning
[09:19] <daniels> heh
[09:20] <daniels> yeah, i should probably sign keys from oxford ... and akademy ... and ols ... and lca ...
[09:20] <aj> heh, i should probably sign keys from lca ... 2001
[09:21] <fabbione> aj: and debconf4 :-)
[09:21] <fabbione> or was it 3?
[09:21] <fabbione> the one in Olso..
[09:21] <fabbione> olso
[09:22] <fabbione> OSLO
[09:22] <fabbione> ok
[09:23] <daniels> 3 was oslo, 4 was brazil
[10:01] <fabbione> daniels: is there actually any reason why we build libgl1.2 when 1.4 is available in debian?
[10:01] <fabbione> usr/lib/libGL.so.1.4.500                                    libs/mesag3,libs/mesag3-glide2,libs/mesag3+ggi
[10:04] <daniels> fabbione: yeah -- mesa built independently from X is incapable of direct rendering
[10:04] <daniels> only software
[10:05] <daniels> working on using debian's mesa on a branch was what got me kicked out of the XSF the first time :P
[10:05] <Gmail> in how many hr is the meeting?
[10:05] <Gmail> i want to getready
[10:06] <Gmail> but i think its in 8hrs
[10:07] <fabbione> daniels: ok... and do you happen to remember why there is a /usr/lib/libGL link to /usr/X11R6/lib/libGL ?
[10:07] <daniels> probably because people suck and hardcoded the path
[10:08] <daniels> fabbione: just like the rest of /usr/X11R6 :)
[10:10] <fabbione> daniels: eh the libgl1 stuff is complex
[10:11] <daniels> hm?
[10:11] <fabbione> because libgl1 is a virtual package provided by several other packages
[10:11] <fabbione> there is all a rationale behind it
[10:11] <fabbione> it's in debian/changelog
[10:11] <daniels> yeah
[10:11] <fabbione> that also means that i cannot call the package libgl1
[10:11] <daniels> oh, right
[10:11] <fabbione> and that seriously SUCKS HARD
[10:11] <daniels> so you're saying there's a /usr/lib/libGL->/usr/X11R6/lib/libgl link?
[10:12] <fabbione> daniels: there is a link because that link is handled by different packages as far as i can see
[10:12] <fabbione> so yes.. it needs to stay as symlink
[10:12] <daniels> /usr/lib/X11/libGL.so
[10:12] <daniels> hey, wait ...
[10:17] <daniels> mmm
[10:17] <daniels> they're trying to fix that upstream, so mesa will be capable of direct rendering when built separately
[10:17] <fabbione> daniels: i think i will keep the same name schema we have in Debian now.. even if i think it sucks
[10:18] <fabbione> xlibmesa-* has nothing to do with libgl
[10:18] <fabbione> but that's the easiest i think
[10:19] <daniels> i don't really like xlibmesa
[10:19] <daniels> i would personally prefer libgl1-xorg
[10:20] <fabbione> or xorg-libgl1
[10:20] <fabbione> that is slightly more coherent with all the other packages
[10:20] <fabbione> like 171 xorg-source-*
[10:20] <fabbione> ;)
[10:21] <fabbione> Package: xorg-libgl1
[10:21] <fabbione> Package: xorg-libgl-dev
[10:21] <fabbione> Package: xorg-libgl-dri
[10:21] <fabbione> ehm
[10:22] <fabbione> libgl1-dri
[10:22] <daniels> mmm, but libgl1-* is far more compliant with standard naming scheme's
[10:22] <daniels> x's is total bong
[10:22] <daniels> (the xlib* mess being a bad hangover)
[10:22] <daniels> s/scheme's/schemes/
[10:23] <daniels> also, libgl1-dri is bad because we're not actually dri
[10:23] <daniels> that's dri.sf.net
[10:23] <daniels> so i propose libgl1-xorg, but your call
[10:25] <fabbione> let's keep it as xorg-libgl*
[10:26] <fabbione> we can easily change it later
[10:26] <daniels> fabbione: hm
[10:26] <fabbione> there is the same mess with xorg-libosmesa
[10:26] <daniels> fabbione: as i said, your call
[10:26] <fabbione> daniels: as i said.. it's a detail right now
[10:26] <daniels> but in my packages, it's libgl1-xorg, libosmesa4-xorg, et al
[10:26] <daniels> yeah
[10:26] <fabbione> we can change later ;)
[10:26] <daniels> we can fight it out in denmark :)
[10:27] <fabbione> daniels: the ring is ready.. time for the cage :P
[10:27] <daniels> heh
[10:41] <__daniel> hai
[10:46] <Keybuk> 1,320 changesets for warty
[11:01] <fabbione> daniels: can you gice me the output of objdump --all-headers libGL.so.1.2 | grep TEXTREL on your libGL ?
[11:01] <fabbione> s/gice/give
[11:01] <fabbione> and on libosmesa4
[11:01] <fabbione> hey sabdfl 
[11:02] <daniels> fabbione: there should be no TEXTREL -- see my make libGL PIC-compliant patch
[11:03] <fabbione> daniels: that's what i was searching for
[11:03] <daniels> i have no TEXTREL here
[11:03] <daniels> but yeah, I wrote a patch to make GL PIC-compliant
[11:03] <daniels> anyway, dinnertime
[11:04] <fabbione> yeah it didn't apply clean.. i will check it again
[11:04] <fabbione> i remember the first time i didn't do it deeply
[11:05] <daniels> jakub jelinek did a better one, might be applied now
[11:05] <daniels> that will make gl *significantly* *quicker*
[11:05] <daniels> anyway, dinner
[11:05] <sabdfl> hiya fabbione
[11:06] <Kamion> mdz: d-i doesn't create /sbin/unconfigured.sh; that's a boot-floppies thing
[11:07] <Kamion> mdz: instead, /etc/inittab is just set to run base-config until base-config rewrites it not to do that
[11:35] <daniels> fabbione: that's the unfortunate reality
[11:39] <fabbione> daniels: i rediffed your patch and now libGL is PIC compliant
[11:39] <daniels> cool
[11:39] <fabbione> but libosmesa4 isn't
[11:39] <daniels> yeah, that probably still needs doing
[11:39] <fabbione> and probably your version isn't linked properly either
[11:40] <fabbione> the Imake is missing a REQUIREDLIBS = MathLibrary
[11:40] <fabbione> i start to eat Imakefiles for breakfast
[11:41] <daniels> yeah, that's a patch from Gentoo I never got to integrating
[11:41] <daniels> their BTS has a few patches to practically eliminate all weak references
[11:41] <daniels> i was working on debrix at that stage, and couldn't be arsed dealing with Branden to get it into the Debian tree
[11:43] <fabbione> the debian patch applie on xfree86 but not x.org
[11:44] <daniels> which debian patch?
[11:44] <fabbione> ok fixed
[11:44] <fabbione> the 062_
[11:44] <fabbione> is the same you geve to me
[11:44] <daniels> the libGL PIC one?
[11:44] <fabbione> gave to me
[11:44] <fabbione> yes
[11:44] <daniels> right
[11:44] <fabbione> that one doesn't apply to x.org
[11:44] <fabbione> and i rediffed
[11:44] <daniels> hmm
[11:44] <fabbione> now it is ok
[11:44] <fabbione> also
[11:44] <daniels> rad
[11:44] <fabbione> libosmesa was ranting about TEXTREL because it was not properly linked with MathLibrary
[11:45] <fabbione> so that is fixed too
[11:45] <daniels> cool
[11:45] <fabbione> hmm no hold on
[11:45] <fabbione> i used the wrong the script for the PIC
[11:46] <fabbione> at least it is linked properly
[11:48] <daniels> http://dev.gentoo.org/~spyderous/xfree/patchsets/4.3.0/patch-2.1.17/0192_all_4.3.0-missing-lib-sharedreqs.patch
[11:49] <daniels> that's a small part of the patch
[11:49] <daniels> http://dev.gentoo.org/~spyderous/xorg-x11/patchsets/6.8.0/patch/0130_all_4.2.1-fix-shared-libXau-link.v2.patch
[11:49] <daniels> you'll want that if you want a shared Xau lib (I want a shared Xau lib)
[11:50] <fabbione> we already have a share libXau
[11:51] <fabbione> the last patch is only partially true
[11:51] <fabbione> s/true/correct
[11:51] <fabbione> anyway
[11:51] <fabbione> the pic problem is still there
[11:51] <fabbione> and it's not a link issue
[11:51] <fabbione> these are easy to fix
[11:52] <daniels> yeah
[11:52] <daniels> gl pic is a bitch
[11:52] <daniels> and when you do get it right, you lose arseloads of performance
[11:52] <fabbione> GL is PIC now
[11:52] <fabbione> we only miss libosmesa4
[11:52] <daniels> mmm
[12:01] <aj> yo, keybuk!
[12:02] <Keybuk> aj: hey
[12:02] <aj> l33t
[12:02] <fabbione> is there a generic way to find code that makes a lib non-pic?
[12:02] <aj> hrm, now i should find that bugnumber
[12:03] <Keybuk> fabbione: not easily
[12:03] <Keybuk> grepping the resulting assembler *shrug*
[12:04] <aj> Keybuk: Bug 62529 -- what're the chances of getting something done about it?
[12:04] <fabbione> Keybuk: ok....
[12:04] <fabbione> well... almost
[12:05] <Keybuk> aj: reasonably high, I think that's one I read over the weekend
[12:05] <aj> yeah, you did
[12:05] <aj> or someone pretending to be you set it to wishlist, anyway
[12:05] <Keybuk> I favour the "does the -revision contain .0.x" trick
[12:06] <Keybuk> it's one lamont and elmo keep poking me about :)  so expect it to be one of the first bugs fixed once sarge has its translation update release
[12:07] <aj> goodo
[12:07] <aj> i'll see if i can get kamion to poke you about it too
[12:23] <Kamion> Keybuk: (consider yourself poked)
[12:24] <daniels> (all the cool kids are doing it)
[12:25] <Kamion> Keybuk: might be worth going over queue/done to check whether any sourceful uploads in the last <whatever> have been versioned .0.x
[12:25] <Kamion> oh, .0.x doesn't work, binNMUs of sourceful NMUs are .1.x etc.
[12:25] <Keybuk> Kamion: there are a few upstream examples (usually bpb) but seeing as policy says .0.x in the revision is a bin-nmu, I think anyone who does it is silly
[12:25] <Kamion> doesn't work on its own, anyway
[12:26] <Keybuk> Kamion: elaborate?
[12:26] <Kamion> MU 1.0-2, sourceful NMU 1.0-2.1, binNMU 1.0-2.1.1
[12:27] <Keybuk> why 1.1 ?
[12:27] <Kamion> because -2.0.1 would be less than -2.1 and -2.1.0.1 would be excessively long?
[12:27] <daniels> Keybuk: rebuild of 2.1
[12:27] <daniels> hence, 2.1.1
[12:27] <Kamion> I think the idea is third level of Debian revision = recompile
[12:28] <Kamion> dunno, just know it's historical fact :)
[12:28] <Keybuk> I get worried about not making it *look* magic
[12:28] <Keybuk> .0.x is pretty rare
[12:29] <Keybuk> .1.x is common for general usage
[12:29] <Kamion> I'm just observing what people have historically done
[12:29] <Kamion> also, katie supports .<whatever>.<whatever>
[12:30] <Kamion> re_bin_only_nmu_of_mu = re.compile("\.\d+\.\d+$");
[12:30] <Kamion> re_bin_only_nmu_of_nmu = re.compile("\.\d+$");
[12:31] <Kamion> all I'm saying is it'd be worth checking queue/done, since people do all sorts of weird shit and it might be worth choosing something with maximal weird-shit deflection potential :-)
[12:34] <daniels> heh :)
[12:34] <daniels> the software design metric of the future!
[12:39] <aj> Keybuk: feel free to make up your own magic, like .recN, or .0.N$ or something different
[12:39] <aj> Keybuk: we can always just REJECT anything that doesn't match the magic
[12:40] <aj> new characters would be bad, though; cf ~...
[12:40] <Keybuk> at least ~ actually makes sense
[12:40] <Keybuk> cf. patch, diff -ru foo-1.0~ foo-1.0
[12:41] <aj> yeah, but it's a nuisance trying to get it to actually work
[12:42] <Keybuk> hrm, ".." could be cute foo_1.0-1..1
[12:42] <aj> eww! that so gross!

[12:43] <aj> eww, only [0-9A-z+.]  to play with
[12:44] <aj> .0+1?
[12:44] <Keybuk> + tends to get used for what ~ is intended for
[12:44] <Keybuk> 1.0-1+but.really+0.99.1
[12:45] <Keybuk> * Not changed: geda-gschem  ... (ugh, that's a horrible package name)
[12:45] <aj> ajt@newraff:~/queue/done$ find | grep -- '-.*\.0+1_' | wc -l
[12:45] <aj>       0
[12:46] <Keybuk> aj: that's certainly a useful idea then
[12:46] <aj> foo_1.0-1.0+1 would work
[12:46] <aj> *shrug* i'm happy if you break things though, REJECTing is easy :)
[12:46] <aj> anything that actually gets implemented gets my vote
[12:46] <Keybuk> are there any in queue/done that end in "+\d*" ?
[12:46] <Keybuk> upstream included
[12:47] <aj> ./2002/11/28/openoffice.org-debian-files_1.0.1-6+1_i386.changes
[12:47] <aj> ./2002/03/05/cfdisk-utf8_2.11n-5+1_powerpc.changes
[12:47] <aj> ./2002/04/07/alsa-modules-2.4.18-i386_0.9+0beta12+3+2.4.18+4+1_i386.changes
[12:47] <aj> ./mutt_1.5.6-20040907+1_powerpc.changes
[12:48] <aj> ./vim_6.3-025+1_arm.changes
[12:48] <sivang> mantis will be used by ubuntu after bugzilla?
[12:48] <aj> ./2002/03/04/tetex-bin_1.0.7+20011202-5_i386.changes
[12:49] <Keybuk> *nods* I'll bounce off lamont when he wakes up and see if he has any opinions
[12:49] <aj> "rc+\d" doesn't match anything, so foo_1.0-1.rc+1 would work too
[12:49] <Keybuk> "rc" ?
[12:49] <aj> +rc1 matches release candidates otoh
[12:49] <aj> ReCompile
[12:51] <Keybuk> yeah I read "rc" as "Release Candidate"
[12:51] <aj> rb+1 for rebuild, maybe
[12:52] <aj> +rb\d works too
[12:54] <Keybuk> I like the +<something>\d+ form ... foo_1.0-1.1+rebuild3 ... kinda reads as "and 3 rebuilds"
[12:57] <azeem> 'rebuild' is relatively short so it could be spelt out, IMHO
[12:57] <azeem> doesn't make people like me wonder what it means, as e.g. with 'ds'
[01:01] <Keybuk> it doesn't really matter too much, as it's not important for anyone but buildd freaks :)
[01:01] <Keybuk> aj: is +b\d used?
[01:03] <aj> no +b\d
[01:04] <Keybuk> cool, that's reasonably short
[01:05] <mvo_> hi seb128 
[01:13] <sid77> hi all
[01:30] <fabbione> daniels: ping
[01:31] <daniels> pong
[01:32] <daniels> fabbione: 2676 is yours
[01:33] <fabbione> daniels: i was talking with Overfiend right now
[01:33] <fabbione> he wrote that section of policy about */X11
[01:33] <fabbione> and he said that we can go as we like
[01:33] <daniels> awesome
[01:33] <fabbione> that means no X11R6
[01:33] <daniels> right
[01:34] <daniels> remember you're the maintainer, ultimately -- /usr and /usr/X11R6 is your call
[01:34] <daniels> you know my opinion by now, I'm sure :)
[01:35] <fabbione> daniels: yes i know your opinion
[01:36] <fabbione> right now i want to get libgl out of my way
[01:36] <fabbione> but the problem is still that TEXTREL
[01:36] <fabbione> and i can't find the piece of code generating it
[01:36] <fabbione> osmesa.c includes 3 tons of crap
[01:39] <daniels> crap
[01:39] <daniels> yeah
[01:43] <fabbione>  * \file imports.h
[01:43] <fabbione> it seems to be the one at fault
[01:44] <fabbione> ./extras/Mesa/src/mesa/main/glheader.h
[01:44] <fabbione> ./extras/Mesa/src/mesa/main/imports.h
[01:45] <daniels> sid77: please turn off public away
[01:51] <lamont> moo
[01:51] <lamont> Keybuk: what version number?
[01:55] <Keybuk> lamont: we were discussing bin-nmus
[01:56] <Keybuk> the idea that dpkg could recognise a certain form of version number, and generate the changes so it's missing the bit at the end in the Source: header
[01:58] <fabbione> daniels: i think i found a solution to the TEXTREL
[01:58] <daniels> fabbione: wassat?
[01:58] <fabbione> but it's going to impact performance. there is no other way around
[01:58] <fabbione> check imports.g
[01:58] <fabbione> ehm .h
[01:58] <daniels> all our PIC changes have killed performance
[01:58] <daniels> i'm not sitting at a computer with an unpacked tree right now
[01:58] <fabbione> it has several specific asm definition
[01:58] <daniels> right
[01:59] <fabbione> and also a generic portable C one
[01:59] <fabbione> so it's question of do in such a way that it will compile the generic one
[01:59] <fabbione> always
[01:59] <daniels> hm
[02:00] <daniels> personally I'd be shooting to make the ASM PIC-compliant
[02:00] <lamont> Keybuk: .0.N is kinda defacto, you know.
[02:05] <Keybuk> lamont: except Kamion was saying it wasn't, and that when a source-NMU has been done, you do .N; and it's not safe when applied to upstream
[02:06] <fabbione> daniels: well.. if you know enough about asm.. patches are welcome :-)
[02:06] <lamont> and no real standard exists for native packages.
[02:07] <Keybuk> lamont: so we were discussing going with something else entirely ... I personally like +b1, +b2 etc.
[02:07] <Kamion> I think that's why I ended up liking aj's DEB_RECOMPILE suggestion after thinking about it, but some convention that nobody's used yet would work too
[02:07] <Kamion> Keybuk: you know some smartarse will use it for beta versions though - why abbreviate?
[02:07] <lamont> the code I've seen basically says "if there are 3 more components in the debian version number, and there is source excluding either the last 1 or 2 components (which must be numeric), then that's it...'
[02:08] <lamont> +binNMU<n>
[02:09] <lamont> of course, anything that is not '.x.y' will require changes in katie and sbuild, to name just a few.
[02:09] <daniels> fabbione: look at the way I did libGL :P
[02:11] <lamont> Keybuk: the goal here is for dpkg to know that it's building an NMU?
[02:11] <lamont> er, binNMU?
[02:12] <elmo> more that the archive can know reliably, I suspect
[02:13] <lamont> note also that a binNMU of a package in ubuntu is newer than the ubuntu version...  (1-1.0.1 > 1.1ubuntu1)
[02:13] <daniels> lamont: er, is it really?
[02:13] <lamont> elmo: ah, right.
[02:13] <lamont> daniels: yep.
[02:13] <daniels> i would've thought that 1ubuntu1 > 1.0
[02:14] <lamont> dpkg --compare-versions 1.0.1 gt 1ubuntu1 && echo y
[02:14] <lamont> y
[02:14] <lamont> daniels: thanks for playing, though.
[02:14] <lamont> :-)
[02:14] <daniels> heh
[02:14] <Keybuk> daniels: "." > "u"
[02:15] <elmo> lamont: (ITYM, 'kthxbye' :P)
[02:15] <lamont> fortunately, the only binNMU in warty has a newer version in sid
[02:15] <lamont> elmo: lol
[02:15] <lamont> sablevm, for those with scorecard
[02:15] <lamont> s
[02:15] <Keybuk> lamont: yeah, basically it's so dpkg-genchanges can go "ah, a recompile, I'll stick 'Source: foo (1.0-1)' in then"
[02:16] <daniels> elmo: the ubuntuforums folk are find of 'k thnx.
[02:16] <daniels> '
[02:18] <fabbione> bah
[02:18] <fabbione> that asm isolation killed my ccache
[02:20] <lamont> Keybuk: then it's probably just a matter of getting all the principals in one place an picking a format,eh?
[02:20] <Keybuk> yup
[02:20] <lamont> personally, I don't really care, so long as the next sourceful upload has a higher version
[02:21] <lamont> for extra credit, pick something < 'u' :-)
[02:22] <Keybuk> that's kinda tricky
[02:22] <Keybuk> you'd actually have to pick a new character for that, and put it < 'a'
[02:22] <lamont> yeah - that's why it's _extra_ credit
[02:22] <Keybuk> all punctuation is > 'z' right now
[02:22] <lamont> or choose a-t to be the character. :-)
[02:23] <Keybuk> see, if you used "x.ubuntu.y"  instead of "xubuntuy" you could use '+', + < '.' ;o)
[02:24] <lamont> Keybuk: yeah, the issue was that we wanted 1ubuntu1 < 1.1
[02:25] <Kamion> jdub: 1ubuntu1myderivative1
[02:25] <lamont> heh
[02:25] <Keybuk> foo_1.0-1ubuntu5skole3guade2_i386.deb :p
[02:25] <lamont> back in about 90 minutes or so, actually closer to 2 hours now that I think about it,
[02:26] <elmo> 326, 326, 350, 22 <-- need-update, up-to-date, ubuntu-modified, ubuntu-specific
[02:26] <elmo> s/22/20/
[02:27] <lamont> Keybuk: truthfully, I don't really mind what it is, so much as I want there to be an official standard for it.
[02:27] <lamont> and buyin from all concerned, of course..
[02:28] <lamont> bbl
[02:28] <Keybuk> elmo: I have 438 ubuntu-modified
[02:32] <elmo> keybuk: I'm only doing main
[02:32] <elmo> right now
[02:32] <Keybuk> ahh ok
[02:32] <jdub> Kamion: that so doesn't scale :)
[02:33] <Keybuk> I did main+universe I think
[02:33] <elmo> hmm, I'd kind of forgotten about universe, meh
[02:33] <daniels> elmo: ubuntu-specific soon to be += ~80
[02:36] <Keybuk> elmo: you're doing the sync of the need-update ones, right?
[02:37] <elmo> Keybuk: getting ready to, yeah
[02:37] <Keybuk> cool
[02:37] <elmo> and mailing folks about stuff that would like to be updated, but are ubuntu modified
[02:37] <Keybuk> I really wish abiword wasn't first on ubuntu-modified :o)
[02:38] <elmo> it'd help if there were proper hoary seeds
[02:39] <Keybuk> most of my rejects seem to be autofuck updates so far
[02:39] <Keybuk> which is encouraging
[02:40] <Keybuk> oh, and po/* hell
[02:40] <Keybuk> I swear, the guys who invented ".po" sat down and designed a file format deliberately intended to be totally unpatchable
[02:40] <thom> it's a feature (TM)
[02:59] <Keybuk> thom: did apache2 steal dpkg-style sorting for filenames ?!
[02:59] <daniels> while we're speaking of httpds, what's up with the indexing on auckland?
[03:00] <Keybuk> * kdemultimedia trying 3.2.2-1ubuntu2 + 3.3.0-1
[03:00] <Keybuk> 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file debian/changelog.rej
[03:00] <Keybuk> 1 out of 4 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file debian/control.rej
[03:01] <Keybuk> lamont is teh suck
[03:01] <thom> Keybuk: hrm?
[03:02] <Keybuk> thom: I just noticed that the files are sorted correctly
[03:02] <Keybuk> rather than 1 10 11 2
[03:02] <thom> ah, heh
[03:03] <thom> doubt it's dpkg stealage :-)
[03:03] <Keybuk> it's not quite right actually, but is close :p
[03:03] <Keybuk> [   ]  aiksaurus_1.0.1+cvs.2004.03.15+dev-0.12-0ubuntu1.patch 25-Oct-2004 07:02   91M  
[03:03] <Keybuk> [   ]  aiksaurus_1.0.1+cvs.2004.03.15-1ubuntu1.patch          25-Oct-2004 07:02  9.8K  
[03:03] <Keybuk> those two should be the other way around :p
[03:03] <lifeless> http://sourcefrog.net/projects/natsort/
[03:03] <jdub> so how do i distribute the op love?
[03:04] <daniels> /m chanserv access #ubuntu add nickname 20
[03:05] <jdub> aha
[03:05] <jdub> done for daniels and Keybuk 
[03:06] <jdub> and thom
[03:06] <jdub> anyone else?
[03:06] <daniels> thanks dude
[03:06] <daniels> i think bob2 wants it, too
[03:06] <jdub> done for lamont
[03:06] <fabbione> bah add me too
[03:06] <daniels> he was mentioning it a while ago, and is #debian
[03:06] <fabbione> just in case
[03:06] <HauntedUnix> Hello all.
[03:06] <jdub> done
[03:07] <seb128> why not :)
[03:07] <jdub> done :)
[03:08] <seb128> thanks :)
[03:09] <Keybuk> * opencv trying 0.9.5-4ubuntu1 + 0.9.5-10
[03:09] <Keybuk> 1 out of 1 hunk FAILED -- saving rejects to file debian/changelog.rej
[03:09] <Keybuk> 2 out of 2 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file debian/control.rej
[03:09] <Keybuk> o/~ oh, lamont
[03:15] <fabbione> daniels: getting an wireless AP for the sprint :-)
[03:15] <daniels> good thing, too
[03:16] <daniels> this house is now pretty reliant on my wrt54g :\
[03:16] <fabbione> i have tried everything i could to kill that TEXTREL
[03:16] <fabbione> it's gonna be 11Mb
[03:32] <Keybuk> rookery scott% grep -c "to file po/" failed.txt
[03:32] <Keybuk> 1277
[03:32] <Keybuk> ugh
[03:33] <Keybuk> in fact
[03:33] <Keybuk> rookery scott% egrep -c "to file (debian/)?po/" failed.txt
[03:33] <Keybuk> 1987
[03:33] <Keybuk> rookery scott% egrep -c "to file debian/(changelog|control)" failed.txt
[03:33] <Keybuk> 582
[03:55] <Mitario> lo everyone
[04:21] <T-Bone> mako: ping
[04:26] <lamont> Keybuk: how bad are the conflicts, I wonder.
[04:27] <mjg59> I'm not able to make the Hoary meeting
[04:27] <mjg59> Is there anyone else who would like to raise laptop stuff?
[04:29] <nmf> Hi all
[04:29] <nmf> I have a question I already made on the devel ml but got no (usefull) response, so...
[04:29] <pitti> mjg59: can you dump your "stuff" that you want to raise on a wiki page?
[04:29] <nmf> Are there any plans to make packages like tomcat available?
[04:30] <pitti> Guys, does anybody have a PCMCIA card which provides an IDE interface?
[04:30] <mjg59> pitti: Yeah
[04:30] <Micksa> well, some/most CF cards do that
[04:30] <mjg59> pitti: Well, PCMCIA->CF adapter
[04:30] <mjg59> Presents as IDE
[04:30] <Micksa> and you can get "dumb" CF -> PCMCIA adapters
[04:31] <Micksa> dammit :)
[04:31] <Micksa> what mjg said
[04:31] <thom> mjg59: quite happy to, yeah
[04:31] <pitti> mjg59: I'm currently debugging #2265, and I need people with such cards to execute two commands
[04:31] <pitti> the problem is how to reliably tell PCMCIA and "normal" IDE adapters apart; hal's current method is broken
[04:32] <mjg59> Oh, and I have a PCMCIA CD drive, too
[04:32] <mjg59> I don't have a laptop with PCMCIA running Ubuntu, though :)
[04:32] <pitti> I need the output of 'cat /var/lib/pcmcia/stab' and 'cardctl ident'
[04:33] <pitti> mjg59: I don't think that Ubuntu matters, Debian or another Linux is probably okay, too
[04:33] <pitti> mjg59: but it should be kernel 2.6, though
[04:33] <daniels> mjg59: what sort of laptop stuff do you want me to represent?
[04:33] <pitti> hal upstream wants to collect the output of these commands to find a better way
[04:34] <pitti> lamont: can you please send me the output of these commands for your card as well?
[04:34] <pitti> nmf: we will soon develop a policy for adding user contributed packages to our Universe
[04:35] <pitti> nmf: by now you can try to get packages from Debian unstable, or if unstable does not have it, from www.apt-get.org
[04:35] <pitti> nmf: (that is, most unstable packages shoudl already be in our universe)
[04:36] <mjg59> daniels: We need to figure out what sort of suspend work to concentrate on - StD is easier but less satisfying, StR is going to need more effort but /ought/ to be possible. We'd need lots of hardware testing, though.
[04:36] <daniels> mjg59: *craploads*
[04:37] <mjg59> pitti: I have no /var/lib/pcmcia/stab
[04:37] <mjg59> (Or, indeed, a /var/lib/pcmcia)
[04:37] <pitti> mjg59: hmm, and cardctl ident?
[04:37] <mjg59> Socket 0:
[04:37] <mjg59>   product info: SAMSUNG, Rev 1.18.4, 
[04:37] <mjg59>   manfid: 0x00ce, 0x0000
[04:37] <mjg59>   function: 4 (fixed disk)
[04:38] <pitti> mjg59: thanks!
[04:38] <nmf> pitti: yeahh, I know I can get them from debian, I'm using them now
[04:38] <pitti> nmf: the package is most likely not in universe because we don't have Java at the moment; but we will find a solution for this
[04:38] <nmf> pitti: the problem is packages like tomcat depend on not-free packages (sun JDK) to build
[04:39] <thom> yes, although we should try and work out a way to build them with gcj and see if they work
[04:39] <thom> this needs a test suite, and tomcat didn't have one last i looked
[04:39] <daniels> cocoon would be phat to have
[04:39] <nmf> pitti: ok, if there's anyway I can help to speed up the process, let me know
[04:40] <daniels> thom: (nor last I looked, short of 'it does stuff and works' or 'it crashes')
[04:40] <daniels> rburton: hey dude
[04:40] <thom> daniels: aye
[04:40] <rburton> hi daniels 
[04:40] <thom> afternoon ross
[04:40] <nmf> thom: I think most packages in debian that can work with free JVMs/JDKs already have the correct dependencies
[04:40] <rburton> thom: afternoon
[04:40] <fabbione> hey ross
[04:41] <rburton> hey fabbione 
[04:41] <rburton> good afternoon all
[04:41] <rburton> mvo_, synaptic --set-selections isn't doing the right thing for me
[04:42] <rburton> i clearly tell it "gaim\tremove" and it doesn't do it
[04:42] <rburton> aaah
[04:42] <rburton> ignore me
[04:43] <mvo_> rburton: gaim delete ...
[04:43] <tseng> hey thom, any idea how to solve this one.. dbus-1 starts networkmanager before hald
[04:44] <lamont> nmf: wrt tomcat:
[04:44] <lamont> multiverse/web/tomcat4_4.1.30-6: Dep-Wait by buildd+mcmurdo [optional:uncompiled] 
[04:44] <lamont>   Dependencies: j2sdk1.4
[04:45] <lamont> so warty only has source. :-(
[04:45] <lamont> pitti: booting now
[04:45] <mvo_> rburton: it's either "delete" or "uninstall"
[04:46] <rburton> mvo_, aah. that would stop the run i was about to do. whats the difference?
[04:46] <lamont> pitti: 4MB pcmcia card, and CF-adapter, fwiw
[04:46] <pitti> lamont: does /var/lib/pcmcia exist on your box?
[04:46] <mvo_> rburton: there is none. it's just for conenience
[04:46] <tseng> thom: should /etc/dbus/event.d have numbered scripts perhaps?
[04:46] <rburton> mvo_, k
[04:46] <mvo_> rburton: I can add "purge" if you need it
[04:47] <rburton> mvo_, could be useful, but i may just use remove
[04:47] <lamont> pitti: no
[04:47] <rburton> uninstall even
[04:47] <pitti> lamont: hm; /var/cache/pcmcia maybe?
[04:48] <pitti> lamont: find /var -name stab  ?
[04:48] <lamont>  /var/run/stab...
[04:48] <rburton> wohoo
[04:49] <pitti> mjg59: does /var/run/stab exist? Does it look as if it has sth to do with PCMCIA?
[04:49] <lamont> anyone want to tell me why apt wants to upgrade gnome-cpufreq-applet over and over...
[04:49] <rburton> mvo_, is therea way to force the terminal window to close when it is finished?
[04:49] <lamont> Preparing to replace gnome-cpufreq-applet 0.1.3-1 (using .../gnome-cpufreq-applet_0.1.3-1_i386.deb) ...
[04:49] <lamont> le huh?
[04:49] <pitti> lamont: can you please /msg me this file and the output of 'cardctl ident'?
[04:50] <mvo_> rburton: it's a bug if it does not close with "--non-interactive". I'll fix this 
[04:50] <pitti> lamont: maybe version +0.0001 and dpkg rounds to two digits? :-)
[04:50] <mjg59> pitti: Nope
[04:50] <mjg59> pitti: (As in, it doesn't exist)
[04:50] <rburton> mvo_, but app-install just removed and installed gaim for me. synaptic's cli stuff is useful, thanks
[04:50] <pitti> mjg59: hmm, thanks anyway
[04:51] <mjg59> Hmm. That's odd - I plug the card in, hal-device-manager briefly shows two partitions, and then they go away again
[04:51] <mjg59> pitti: Oh, hang on - it's suddenly appeared
[04:51] <mjg59> Socket 0: ATA/IDE Fixed Disk
[04:51] <mjg59> 0       ide     ide-cs  0       hde     33      0
[04:52] <nmf> lamont: that's the problem I was talking about, it depends on Sun JDK so it never gets built.
[04:52] <lamont> nmf: right
[04:52] <nmf> Anyone knows how contrib packages build is handled on debian?
[04:53] <thom> tseng: yes
[04:53] <mjg59> nmf: It's not autobuilt
[04:53] <lamont> nmf: buildd's try, if the non-free stuff is there, then maybe it works.
[04:53] <pitti> mjg59: thanks
[04:53] <lamont> otherwise, some random d-d uploads the binaries
[04:53] <thom> just spoke to (one of) the maintainers about it
[04:53] <tseng> wonderful.
[04:53] <daniels> networkmanager, or dbus?
[04:53] <thom> daniels: dbus-1
[04:54] <lamont> mjg59: hppa has 88 contrib/ entries in w-b... contrib is autobuilt
[04:54] <lamont> just not with great success...
[04:54] <mjg59> Oh, it is? Ha.
[04:54] <daniels> thom: the other maintainer sucks
[04:54] <lamont> non-free, OTOH, is definitely not in w-b
[04:57] <thom> heh.
[05:03] <lamont> hrm... SMC card seems to "just work".  Linksys card not so fortunate.
[05:04] <tseng> new linksys cards tend to be broadcom chips
[05:04] <tseng> while smc goes with prismX
[05:04] <lamont> netgear card happy too
[05:05] <lamont> tseng: WPC11 ver 4 802-11B wireless
[05:05] <lamont> not exactly "new" :-)
[05:05] <tseng> hmm thats an 11b even
[05:06] <tseng> survey says prism2, *should* work
[05:06] <lamont> yeah - I need to actually get my AP working, you see...
[05:10] <lamont> tseng: btw, url?
[05:14] <tseng> http://www.kismetwireless.net/cards.shtml
[05:16] <Kamion> still recommends base-config in a chroot, which is kinda suboptimal, but it'll do for now
[05:16] <Mitario> hello everyone!
[05:16] <mvo_> hi Mitario 
[05:17] <Mitario> mvo_, seen my updates on upgrade-notifier?
[05:18] <mvo_> Mitario: yes. I checked in a small fix also :)
[05:19] <Mitario> cool :)
[05:19] <mvo_> is the upgrade-center available for download somewhere?
[05:19] <Mitario> mvo_, umm, well I did the rewrite in python
[05:19] <Mitario> with python-apt
[05:19] <mvo_> I wonder if it is worth the efford to put the build-in window back
[05:19] <Mitario> but I have not yet made a package or buildsystem for it
[05:19] <Mitario> true
[05:19] <Mitario> IMO it isn't nescesairy
[05:20] <mvo_> ok
[05:20] <Mitario> does anyone here know a neet buildsystem for python apps?
[05:23] <Mitario> mvo_, i can send you the source I have now though
[05:23] <mvo_> Mitario: yes, please do :)
[05:24] <Mitario> oh, I was a bit stuck on setting selections in synaptic though, but i'll ask that later
[05:26] <Mitario> mvo_, see http://luon.net/~michiels/ubuntu/update-manager.tar.gz
[05:28] <mvo_> Mitario: looks very nice!
[05:29] <Mitario> :)
[05:30] <rburton> i best refactor app-install and make a tarball for people to poke at too
[05:30] <Mitario> app-install was that neet app you showed us some days ago?
[05:30] <rburton> aye
[05:30] <Mitario> nice :)
[05:31] <rburton> it just removed and installed gaim
[05:31] <rburton> (via synaptic)
[05:31] <Mitario> cool :)
[05:31] <Mitario> oh, can you show me your synaptic --set-selection method?
[05:31] <rburton> Mitario, okay to /query?
[05:32] <Mitario> sure
[05:35] <Mitario> mvo_, anyways, seen the --with-package-manager option?
[05:39] <mvo_> Mitario: yes!
[05:39] <Mitario> ok, i did that so distributions/maintainers can use the package manager of choice
[05:40] <Mitario> so for ubuntu (or at least my packages :) I would use --with-pkg-manager=/usr/bin/update-manager or something
[05:42] <elmo> oh, of the 326, only 248 actually have newer versions
[05:45] <fabbione> elmo: don't count xfree86. we are not going to merge it from sid
[05:45] <fabbione> elmo: we will kill it as soon as we have x.org
[05:47] <doko> elmo: and many can be just re-synced.
[05:51] <mako> T-Bone: hey there.. give me a couple minutes
[05:51] <T-Bone> mako: ok sure! just wanted to make sure you were alive ;)
[05:53] <daniels> fabbione: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=49038
[05:54] <fabbione> daniels: i didn't build Xx86rush yet
[05:54] <fabbione> i can test it on the fly
[05:55] <fabbione> i was just searching for a simple lib to trash before the meeting :-)
[05:55] <fabbione> daniels: if it doesn't contain *gl* anywhere in the name it's ok :)
[05:56] <daniels> heh
[05:57] <daniels> fabbione: anyway, that bug and the attached fd.o one are pretty much the canonical fixes
[05:57] <daniels> look like they're fixed upstream anyway
[05:57] <daniels> oh yeah, dlloader works out of the box
[05:58] <daniels> if you want to go for a triple-whammy we can KILL ELFLOADER with EXTREME PREJUDICE
[05:58] <tseng> dlloader rocks
[05:58] <daniels> it sure does
[05:58] <daniels> even better than dlloader is the loader in debrix
[05:59] <daniels> daniels@nanasawa:~/x/debrix/debrix/hw/xorg/loader% wc -l *.[ch]  | tail -1
[05:59] <daniels>   897 total
[05:59] <daniels> daniels@nanasawa:~/x/xorg/xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xfree86/loader% wc -l *.[ch]  | tail -1
[05:59] <daniels>  13417 total
[06:02] <fabbione> daniels: one thing at a time
[06:03] <fabbione> let's get X.org out of my harddisks first
[06:03] <daniels> heh
[06:04] <tseng> oh daniels, do you know anything about tv out on ati?
[06:04] <fabbione> daniels: Xx86rush compiles perfectly here
[06:04] <fabbione> they are on crack
[06:05] <daniels> fabbione: merged into xorg, then
[06:05] <fabbione> daniels: could be
[06:05] <daniels> tseng: 'don't'
[06:05] <daniels> tseng: how recent?
[06:06] <tseng> i have an radeon mobility, few months old and a radeon aiw 9200
[06:06] <daniels> should be fine with the mobility, likely sol with the 9200
[06:06] <tseng> just wondering if xorg will do anything for me, ati-drivers are the suck
[06:06] <daniels> for the mobility, google for atitvout
[06:37] <__daniel> hai
[06:57] <Mitario> heya
[06:59] <__daniel> brb
[07:05] <lamont> Kamion/Thom: please rename warty-rc2-live-i386.iso to warty-release-live-i386.iso.  Ditto for .torrent
[07:12] <elmo> kamion/thom/whoever: and please let me know, when it's done so I can upload it to the CD pressers
[07:12] <thom> not me, this is all kamio	
[07:13] <Kamion> thom: you need to do torrents :)
[07:13] <Kamion> I'll look, may not be done until the meeting's over
[07:15] <daniels> thom: isn't it great how much time tab completion saves you? :P
[07:16] <Kamion> lamont: (mdz's confirmed?)
[07:16] <mdz> elmo: confirm the md5sum with lamont
[07:16] <mdz> his latest bits are the ones which should go out
[07:19] <elmo> dac84a3abf5a1a104d768d569a62579e  warty-rc2-live-i386.iso
[07:19] <lamont> dac84a3abf5a1a104d768d569a62579e  warty-live-i386-20041022-04.iso
[07:19] <lamont> that should match rookery
[07:19] <lamont> should match releases.u.c
[07:23] <ctalkep> hi guys
[07:23] <ctalkep> is daf here?
[07:24] <daniels> ctalkep: he's on the channel
[07:24] <ctalkep> well...
[07:25] <daf> ctalkep: hi
[07:27] <ctalkep> daf, , hi
[07:27] <ctalkep> daf, been looking for you for several days
[07:28] <daf> I'm not always around on weekends
[07:28] <ctalkep> daf, wanted to contact you about the translation project, since you are in charge
[07:29] <ctalkep> i read at the list that the installer is about to be the most important part to be translated, so is that where we need to start?
[07:33] <daf> I recommend you choose something you would personally like to see better translated
[07:34] <daf> also, it's a good idea to take into account what experience you have when you start translating
[07:34] <daf> some programs are easier to translate than others
[07:34] <daf> and you have an advantage if you're translating a piece of software you're familiar with
[07:35] <ctalkep> i see
[07:36] <ctalkep> daf, so there is no structured schedule ?
[07:37] <daf> no
[07:37] <daf> it's a free-for-all
[07:37] <ctalkep> daf, sorry, got to leave for a while, be right back, wanted to ask you and on the web site translation
[07:37] <daf> ok, see you later
[08:07] <lucas_> hi
[08:08] <Kamion> thom: updated live CDs, please check torrents
[08:08] <thom> Kamion: 'k
[08:13] <aj> how are you making your live cds?
[08:13] <aj> manually, or fai, or other automation?
[08:13] <daniels> manual, aiui
[08:15] <jdub> well
[08:15] <jdub> morphix-manual
[08:16] <thom> lamont/kamion: torrents torrentified
[08:16] <lamont> aj: morphix-mmaker
[08:17] <lamont> invoked manually atm
[08:19] <Kamion> lamont: I assume you or somebody will figure out who's sending the release announcement
[08:19] <Kamion> canonical URL is http://releases.ubuntu.com/warty/warty-release-live-i386.iso BTW
[08:21] <lamont> Kamion: yes, once the meeting is over, I'll work with mdz/jdub/whoever and make it happen
[09:17] <ctalkep> daf, you still here?
[09:19] <daf> yep
[09:22] <ctalkep> daf, so, do i take the files for translation from the debian repository?
[09:23] <daf> that depends on what you want to translate
[09:25] <ctalkep> daf, i was hoping there was someone out there to tell me what should be done,:), but since i'm on my own i don't generally care
[09:27] <ctalkep> daf, and i am so impressed with ubuntu, that i wanted to begin with it's translation
[09:29] <daf> well, it's really up to you
[09:29] <daf> find something you like using which needs work and work on it
[09:29] <daf> have you already managed to get Ubuntu working in your language?
[09:31] <ctalkep> haven't started yet
[09:32] <ctalkep> wanted to first get a grip of the situation
[09:33] <ctalkep> i guess i'll just start with that
[09:33] <ctalkep> then what about the web site translation?
[09:34] <ctalkep> there are a lot of people here working with linux, yet few of them are comfortable with english
[09:34] <daf> web site translation is not possible at the moment
[09:34] <ctalkep> i think it would bea great advantage, since there are only few online sources of information on linux/unix now
[09:34] <daf> we're working on that
[09:34] <ctalkep> i see
[09:35] <daf> I'll make an announcement as soon as it's ready
[09:35] <daf> running Ubuntu in your language would be a good start
[09:35] <ctalkep> i will begin with that then
[10:18] <dany> to beshe na purvata vuzmojna opcia be
[10:49] <pitti> So we can now upload our stuff into Hoary? Or shall we wait for the sync first?
[11:11] <hornbeck> is there anyway to find out what was said in the meeting today?
[11:11] <hornbeck> like a log or something
[11:13] <mdz> pitti: if you have packages to upload which do not interefere with the sync, I think it is fine. elmo can confirm
[11:13] <mdz> hornbeck: there will be a transcript and summary posted to the list
[11:13] <mdz> hornbeck: if you want something now, I can send you a copy of my scrollback
[11:13] <pitti> mdz: I already synced some packages (hal and gvm), so it would actually ease the merge
[11:14] <pitti> hornbeck: I have a copy here
[11:14] <Mitario> hmm, I'm wonderwing if it'd be usefull for ubuntu/me if i'd sign up for wannebe maintainer :)
[11:14] <pitti> hornbeck: http://www.piware.de/ubuntu-meeting-20041025.txt
[11:15] <pitti> mdz: but if there is already an automated merging process, I can defer uploading
[11:16] <mdz> pitti: should be fine, send mail to Keybuk to notify him that you have done it
[11:16] <pitti> mdz: okay, I will CC elmo as well
[11:16] <elmo> eh, I think we should try and sync where possible?
[11:17] <elmo> rather than do uploads?
[11:17] <hornbeck> pitti, mdz: thanks I am reading pitti's copy
[11:17] <pitti> elmo: I packaged a completely new hal version which just arrived at experimental
[11:17] <pitti> elmo: I just don't know what is easier: let you finish the automatic merging and upload afterwards, or upload immediately
[11:18] <hornbeck> mdz: a bounty for a python port of yelp?
[11:18] <pitti> elmo: but we changed so many things in hal and gvm that even manual merge was a PITA; I think it isn't possible automatically
[11:19] <elmo> pitti: what am I saying is, if ubuntu-version will == debian-version, I think we should sync
[11:19] <pitti> elmo: not really
[11:19] <pitti> elmo: I took the new Debian version, and redid the Ubuntu modifications as clean patches
[11:20] <pitti> elmo: same with g-v-m
[11:20] <pitti> elmo: I will need to upload anyway, but I want to do it at a time when it does not interfere with merging
[11:22] <elmo> then go ahead and upload
[11:22] <elmo> tho the cron jobs are disabled right now
[11:22] <elmo> only 800 or so more packages to sync in universe
[11:22] <pitti> elmo: okay, if now is a good time
[11:26] <hornbeck> mdz: I would like to do the Ubuntu in a Nutshell, if there are no other takers
[11:29] <jdub> hornbeck: that'll be a more-than-one-man project, probably involving some canonical contracts too
[11:30] <hornbeck> jdub: I would really like to work on it if I can
[11:30] <hornbeck> I really want to put something out that is not just internet based
[11:35] <hornbeck> well I am off to work again
[11:42] <sabdfl> hornbeck: i like the idea, who is the publisher of the "in a nutshell" series?
[11:42] <tseng> oreilly and associates
[11:43] <sabdfl> tseng: thanks
[11:43] <hornbeck> sabdfl oreilly
[11:43] <tseng> we could say
[11:43] <tseng> "ubuntu in a clamshell" :D
[11:43] <hornbeck> "ubuntu in a akorn"
[11:43] <sabdfl> hornbeck: go ahead and approach them if you like, with my support
[11:43] <hornbeck> sabdfl: I will try :-)
[11:44] <hornbeck> If I go about this, I don't think I will get much real docs done
[11:44] <tseng> there are several other publishers with an eye towards open source as well
[11:44] <hornbeck> but it will be a major doc in and of itself
[11:44] <tseng> if that is the route you are going
[11:44] <hornbeck> well it would be nice to get a Ubuntu Book out there
[11:44] <hornbeck> I like books
[11:44] <tseng> newriders, no starch press
[11:45] <hornbeck> no starch is through orielly is it not?
[11:45] <tseng> there is some sort of partnership i believe
[11:45] <hornbeck> yeah that is what I thought
[11:45] <tseng> but no starch is at least externally its own company
[11:46] <hornbeck> sabdfl: the nutshell series is more just facts
[11:46] <hornbeck> I could approach no starch about doing a "Ubuntu book"
[11:46] <hornbeck> or even Oreilly
[11:46] <tseng> http://www.nostarch.com/about.htm
[11:47] <tseng> oreilly is a distributer for no starch
[11:47] <hornbeck> what do you guys think?
[11:47] <pitti> night
[11:47] <tseng> bye pitti 
[11:47] <hornbeck> well, lets discuss later I have to be at work in 10 minutes
[11:47] <tseng> ok
[11:47] <tseng> content = #1
[11:48] <hornbeck> sabdfl, tseng: I think I would want to work with all the dev's on this
[11:48] <hornbeck> to make it very good
[11:48] <tseng> yes.
[11:48] <hornbeck> but discussion later
[11:48] <tseng> bye
[11:48] <sabdfl> hornbeck: to get it done for hoary it may be better to start with a tighter format
[11:49] <Kamion> so, I can upload merges to hoary now?
[11:49] <hornbeck> sabdfl: I will put together a outline and mail to you
[11:50] <elmo> yeah, if you want
[11:50] <elmo> they won't be built/mirrored out for a bit tho
[11:51] <sabdfl> hornbeck: i'm already a bottleneck, can you figure this out within the doc team? ping me on irc if you need any specific commitment
[11:51] <hornbeck> sabdfl: I will work something out and let you guys know
[11:51] <sabdfl> elmo: if we can avoid mirroring for a while, it might be worthwhile
[11:51] <sabdfl> maybe publish hoary somewhere where it can break
[11:52] <sabdfl> especially if we are going to be uploading new gcc etc
[11:52] <sabdfl> once the toolchain is in, we can rebuild
[11:52] <sabdfl> or is that toenail-smoking?
[11:52] <Kamion> sounds like a plan to me
[11:53] <Kamion> or maybe just publish source only
[11:55] <elmo> err, I thought we discussed this?
[11:55] <elmo> +in the meeting
[11:56] <elmo> this is why, I'd held off on hoary so long, because people keep telling me to do entirely conflicting things with hoary :-/
[11:57] <mdz> if we were going to update the toolchain, we should have done that _before_ importing new versions of everything
[11:57] <elmo> I can't not mirror hoary, without essentially forking the archive infrastructure.  I can do that, if you want but I need to know now.
[11:58] <elmo> The only other thing we could do is restrict access to the Packages/Sources files but that certainly won't allow us to en-masse rebuild
[11:58] <elmo> or option c) we just put hoary out there, which is what I thought was the plan, and what I had started on doing
[11:59] <elmo> by "update the toolchain" you mean switch to gcc3.4/4.0 by default?
[11:59] <Kamion> that sounds like bong ...