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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Hoary kickoff meeting: Monday, 2004-10-25, 1600UTC
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sivangcan someone put the agenda link on the channel's topic?04:19
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:bob2] : Hoary kickoff meeting: Monday, 2004-10-25, 1600UTC || Agenda: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryKickoffMeeting
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ploumI put already a link about my opinion05:09
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dokoI know I am late ... are people already busy working? so quiet ...05:29
Keybukhalf an hour early05:29
dokoahh still summertime in the UK?05:30
Keybukmeeting time is UTC, not BST/GMT05:31
Keybukwe're UTC+0100 at the moment05:31
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lamontdoko: so you're early. :-)05:38
dokolamont: at least that can't be wrong ;)05:38
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sivangdoko : early enough :)05:55
mdzjdub: are you here for the duration?  thanks for staying up05:55
jdubi'm hammered05:56
jdubgot up at 4am05:56
danielsyou're turning into fabio :\05:56
fabbionetsk :P05:56
sivanghey lamont05:56
fabbionehe should be honoured of that ;)05:56
sivangfabboine : still insomnic ?05:57
thomfabbione: the word in english is "suicidal" ;-)05:57
danielsor terrified, either way05:57
mdzjdub: had a nap along the way, I hope05:57
bob2daniels: think how much fun you'll have over there!05:57
jdubmdz: no05:58
bob2"little daniel, it's 4am, let's hack x.org!"05:58
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=== jdub goes to have a sprite recharge
mdz...daniels awakes as a bucket of ice water is emptied over his head05:58
Keybukright, better get tea05:59
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danielsmdz: 4am is generally when I go to sleep these days05:59
mdzcalled to order, etc.06:00
mdzis everyone here who ought to be?06:00
lamontmorning sivang06:00
sivanglamont : good evening, it's 18:00pm here ;-)06:01
=== Kamion waves
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mdzme waits a moment for stragglers to arrive06:01
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sabdflhi all06:01
pittiHi fearless sabdfl!06:01
sivangHi fearless leader! :)06:02
sabdflhey all, mdz will be chairing this one06:02
seb128evening sabdfl 06:02
mdzok, we have a ton of ground to cover, so let's get started06:02
dokoevening all06:02
mdzfisrt agenda item is to review the release schedule, and probably make some adjustments. jdub, are you back with Sprite?06:02
mdzI believe the schedule requires updating to reflect changes to the GNOME 2.10 schedule06:03
mdzok, let's skip ahead to the merge process for now06:04
Kamionand we need to fiddle the CD milestone dates06:04
jdubit does06:04
mdzok, let's not :-)06:04
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Keybukwho wants some cute stats about warty?06:04
mdzjdub: any changes which we should talk about here?06:04
jdubmdz: not significant enough, no06:04
jdub^ that's the gnome schedule, for the record06:04
jdubours just needs tweaking06:04
danielsfwiw, the proposed gnome schedule: http://www.gnome.org/start/2.9/06:05
Keybukjdub: by how much?06:05
mdzKamion: I'm happy for you to tweak the CD milestone dates as you feel is appropriate; you might want to wait for jdub's changes though06:05
Kamionmdz: not in a hurry, just flaggint it06:05
mdzok, nothing major in that department, then; we can move on06:05
mdzto THE MERGE06:05
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mdzelmo: what's the status of the sync infrastructure?06:05
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mdz...creepy organ music plays...06:06
elmomdz: mostly ready - I need two things before I can go:06:06
elmoa) proper seed lists for hoary06:06
elmob) a decision on what, if anything, we're doing about indices files for hoary?06:06
Gmailam i allowed to say a few comments?06:06
danielsGmail: we are talking about the huge merge with sid.  if it is appropriate and on-topic, yes.06:07
ploum March 9th: 2.10.0 release! (wow, my birthday :-) )06:07
mdzGmail: yes, this is a public meeting, but please try to stay on topic, we have a great deal to discuss06:07
KamionGmail: we're on an agenda here, let's stick to it and have any other business at the end.06:07
mdzelmo: what sort of indices?06:07
elmomdz: Packages/Sources, etc.  there was talk of pw-protecting and/or hiding them at one stage06:07
mdzelmo: until we have the initial merge sorted out?06:07
jdubelmo: that was about crack-o-the-day, not hoary06:08
mdzthere may be something to be said for that06:08
elmojdub: no, it really was  hoary at one stage. 06:08
lamontelmo: I thought that applied more to grumpy start (at hoary freeze...)06:08
mdzwe really don't know how bad the breakage will be, though06:08
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jdubelmo: it was about hoary while warty was still in devel06:08
mdzthe only compelling justification is so that people don't dive into it when it's known to be severely broken06:09
sabdflbasic question, do we think people will expect hoary to be sane-if-there?06:09
mdzwhich I think it very well could be at the very beginning06:09
Kamionsabdfl: we've been telling people not to, but I'm sure they will06:09
mdzsabdfl: perhaps not sane, but installable and not breaking their desktop06:09
fabbionesabdfl: mostlikely06:09
danielssabdfl: you can s/warty/hoary/ now, and apt-get update won't error our06:09
mdzthose who have been warned deserve what they get, but there will be others who have not been warned06:09
elmodaniels: eh, you'll screw your system06:09
sabdflbut there's nothing in their system telling them to s/warty/hoary/06:09
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sabdflit will take longer to get through the pain of merging if we try to keep hoary sane at all times06:10
mdzelmo: regarding the seed lists, let's use the Warty seed lists; we can update them later06:10
mdzelmo: we'll need to have a review of the proposed seed changes, and I expect we won't get to it during this meeting06:10
elmomdz: ok06:10
Kamionmdz: are we going to duplicate them in the wiki, or do I not need to change Germinate yet?06:10
Gmailok as i goto sleep here are a few ideas: you know you new usplash thing add to it that alt+flock's F1 == alt+F1 it get really anoying on crappy key baords that have f-lock off by default06:10
fabbioneelmo, mdz: please kill anything X related in the seeds, we don't want to merge xfree86 from sid06:10
elmofabbione: we won't merge it - it's ubuntu modified06:11
sabdflgmail: msg me oob and i'll raise them at the end06:11
mdzKamion, elmo: let's continue to use germinate pointing to the Warty seeds06:11
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fabbioneelmo: perfect06:11
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mdzso what elmo and I discussed was that his tool would automatically import unmodified packages06:11
mdzand for modified packages (those with an ubuntu version number), send out a notification06:12
mdzprobably a simple email to start06:12
Keybuknotification to whom?06:12
mdza mailing list seems appropriate06:12
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dokonotification of what? resync, or keep it?06:12
mdzdoko: a notification of the fact that it needs review06:12
lamontand then we either merge, or sync new-debian06:12
elmomdz and I discussed including the changelog from the debian version, to aid in prioritzation06:12
mdzthen someone will read the changelog, determine if there are changes which have not been merged upstream, and either request a sync of the Debian version (if none), or do a manual merge (if so)06:13
fabbionewouldn't be better to track it in bugzilla?06:13
Keybuk^ that's the set of patches made to warty since Debian-freeze06:13
mdzelmo: yes, that would be great06:13
fabbioneso we are sure of what is done or not?06:13
Keybuk^ that's the changes to those packages in Debian since the freeze06:13
lamontelmo: sweet06:13
mdzfabbione: we discussed it briefly, it is a possibility06:13
mdzI am concerned about generating a huge number of bugs that way06:13
Keybuk^ result of merging the two together, with a bunch of rejects to review06:13
Kamionfabbione: bugzilla feels extraordinarily heavyweight for this, to me06:13
mdzbut we have the tools to do it06:13
fabbioneKamion: i think it's easier since you go, pickup, kill and so on...06:14
mdzbugzilla does have the advantage of making it easy to track assignments, so we know if something is being done or not06:14
fabbioneKamion: otherwise we might lose track of the list06:14
elmowe're talking about 248 bugs06:14
elmojust for main06:14
pittimdz: and we could also sort out the "who does what" easily in bz06:14
mdzelmo: let's create bugs automatically for the initial batch at least06:14
elmo*shrug* k06:15
mdzwe'll need to figure out what to do for the ongoing merges, based on that experience06:15
sabdflcould equally well be a single wiki page06:15
pittisabdfl: where everybody marks the packages he will merge?06:15
pittiwould work, too; maybe easier than bz06:15
elmowhat do we want to do about universe?  the majority of those changes were "make it build" fixes that should be irrelevant - I'm semi-tempted to overwrite, but that may just be me06:15
danielsdoing X could be really interesting -- personally, I'd really like a lock on the repository for 48h to just do X stuff and deal with the fallout, if any.06:16
mdzlet's start with bugzilla, and if it becomes cumbersome, we can switch to something else06:16
mdzelmo: let's ignore universe for now06:16
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elmomdz: err.. mmk06:16
elmonot even sync the unmodified stuff?06:16
mdzsure, why not06:16
fabbionedaniels: no need to. we will use chroots for that06:16
fabbionedaniels: let's discuss it tomorrow06:16
mdzbut we don't want bugs or notifications about the rest of it until we've finished with the initial work for main06:16
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mdzelmo: what about accessing the morgue?06:17
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elmomdz: what do you think Scott's been doing?06:17
sabdflre universe, are there any changes other than "make it build" changes?06:17
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sabdflif not, let's just throw open the doors06:17
mdzelmo: no idea06:17
Keybukelmo: I'm convinced he has me on ignore these days <g>06:17
jdubsabdfl: some resyncs06:17
dokoelmo: can you publish a list of changed packages in universe?06:17
mdzsabdfl: yes, we've done things like the libtiff transition06:17
elmomdz: anyway, it's on rookery, I can make it via http, if you want06:17
jdubsabdfl: libtiff-- yeah06:17
pittisabdfl: I added some RC bug fixes regarding file conflicts06:18
mdzelmo: what I expect we want for the merge tool is a Sources.gz06:18
sabdfldid the libtiff stuff not get take upstream?06:18
mdzelmo: or a bunch of them06:18
pittisabdfl: not all of them are already fixed in sid06:18
Keybukmdz: what would this merge tool do?06:18
mdzKeybuk: :-)06:18
mdzKeybuk: a lower form of magic06:18
elmomdz: sure, can create a sources.gz06:18
mdzjust a simple 3-way merge from 1.0-1, 1.0-1ubuntu3 and 1.0-206:18
Kamionpitti: I thought almost everything did, it was blocking britney for ages and isn't any more06:18
elmomight take a day or two, but ;P06:18
sabdflif libtiff was a lamont-automated-patch then we can recreate it quickly enough06:18
Keybukmdz: ah, yes.  you get http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/output/ when you do that06:18
mdzlibtiff was06:19
Keybukdid that over the weekend because I was bored06:19
jdubsabdfl: (yeah)06:19
mdzKeybuk: is that from hct?06:19
Keybukmdz: no, just low-level magic06:19
jdubi think sync-and-overwrite in universe is fairly sane06:19
dokokeybuk: hmm, that output is useful for new upstream versions as well?06:19
Keybuktla was taking too long06:19
mdzKeybuk: it has lots of lovely rejects06:19
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mdzKeybuk: what are the numbers like?06:19
Keybukmdz: 10,704 "rejects"06:20
Keybukaround 7,000 of those with same changes on each side06:20
Keybuk3,596 left as different changes to both sides06:20
mdzKeybuk: that's number-of-hunks or number-of-files?06:20
Keybuksome 2,500 of those in .po files and debian/changelog or debian/control06:20
Keybukmdz: number-of-files06:20
lamontKeybuk: sounds like you need to autodetect same-changes case, eh?06:20
sabdflKeybuk: any magic you can bring to the next two weeks will make you friends for life :-)06:21
Keybukwarty has some 295,004 hunks06:21
sabdflwe can drop po06:21
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Kamionsabdfl: uh, I think that's a really bad idea for d-i06:21
sabdflKamion: true06:21
Keybuk42,680 patched files ... 1,320 patches in 387 packages06:21
danielsKeybuk: (you can safely exclude xfree86 from that list of number of hunks)06:21
Kamionsabdfl: we put enormous amounts of effort into the .po branding06:21
dokosabdfl: but not for all of the installer packages (s/Debian/Ubuntu).06:22
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sabdflright again06:22
Keybukyes, I'd like daf to teach us how we merge changes between .po files06:22
Keybukbecause whoeever designed that file format is getting a beating if I ever meet them06:22
dokouse Rosetta?06:22
sabdflrosetta gets you faster community translations06:22
sabdflbut wn't help maintain an effective long-lived branch06:23
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KeybukKamion's hunch was right ... it actually is easier to apply the debian changes to warty than try to go back and apply warty's changes to debian06:23
sabdflreal solution is to parameterise the branding06:23
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dokohmm, I didn't send kamion the script I used for merging the translations ...06:23
Kamionsabdfl: I spent quite a lot of thought on it and TBH I'm not very convinced that it's possible06:23
Kamionat least, not without FAR greater gettext-fu than I possess or have so far seen06:24
sabdfli'll knock on daf's door06:24
dafKeybuk: what sort of merge? simple join of two PO files, three-way merge between translators or three-way merge with message ID and translator changes or or something else?06:24
sabdflbetter than def's door06:24
Keybukdaf: three-way merge.  you have original .po and two sets of patches to it06:24
mdzdaf: in  this case it's a 3-way merge with both message ID and translations changed :-)06:24
KeybukKamion: I actually don't see any po/ failures in debian-installer06:25
Kamionthere will be a number of cases where we just have to re-brand, there's no choice06:25
KeybukI think it was happy with most of them :o)06:25
KamionKeybuk: debian-installer is just the build system.06:25
Keybukoh :'(06:25
KamionKeybuk: it doesn't HAVE any .po files :-)06:25
KeybukI broke apart all the patches as well06:25
mdzKeybuk: so how much of this can we realistically automate?06:25
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Keybukthat's each "change" to warty06:26
mdzif we can get it down to a level where, for the simple case, we can end up with a source package, complete with changelog entry, read for upload06:26
Kamionfor .po files I'm happy to do it by steam for now and gradually automate; I think I've got the majority of the changes there06:26
mdzthat'd be ideal06:26
fabbioneKeybuk: the list isn't complete, is it?06:26
Keybukfabbione: packages for which there is both a debian and ubuntu verison in the morgue and debian < ubuntu06:26
Keybuk(ie stuff we've changed)06:26
Keybukthough the gnome stuff we can probably ignore, because we *really* changed that <g>06:26
dafKeybuk: what are the two sets of patches?06:26
Keybukthat's the debian side of it06:26
fabbioneKeybuk: ok06:26
Keybukdaf: "ubuntu changes" and "debian changes"06:27
mdzKeybuk: output/ is the result of applying debian/ to warty-current?06:27
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sabdflyes, gnome, x, we figure we take the lead06:27
Keybukmdz: yup06:27
Kamiondaf: Ubuntu changes generally fall into two groups: branding, and minor translation updates from overenthusiastic people who thought we had a good process for translation updates in warty :-)06:27
mdzKeybuk: <mdz> if we can get it down to a level where, for the simple case, we can end up with a source package, complete with changelog entry, read for upload06:28
mdzKeybuk: doable?06:28
dafif you simply have a patch that adds/changes translations, you simply apply the patch, regenerate the .pot file and use msgmerge06:28
Kamiondaf: Debian changes you know06:28
Keybukit actually ends up with about 1,000 rej files that need manually checking (3 per package) ... and a lot of those are hopefully simple fixes06:28
Kamiondaf: the patch typically doesn't apply06:28
Keybukmdz: well, you still need a human to resolve the case where debian and ubuntu have gone in different directions06:28
mdzKeybuk: yes, but we have a lot of stuff which should be non-overlapping06:28
dafKeybuk: ok, you need to find the file the patch applies to, apply it to that and then do further merging with the patched file06:29
mdzthe changelog in particular will always conflict due to diff/patch being how they are, but that's something we should be able to consistently resolve automatically06:29
Keybukmdz: yeah, need to figure out a trick for that one :)06:29
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Kamiondaf: ah, so we unpack the branchpoint package for that06:30
danielsmdz: you could reasonably trivially write a changelog merge tool tho06:30
danielsmdz: the only problem is that patch doesn't understand changelog format06:30
sabdflhm... changelog.ubuntu, which points into changelog.debian would be easier06:30
jdubseparate ubuntu changelog would be really useful06:30
Kamionsabdfl: urk, debian/changelog is something understood by all sorts of tools06:30
sabdfli'm not sure what the tools would do with that06:31
elmohoary's been seeded with woody, and sync's running for non-modified stuff now06:31
dafin general, I think the method is this: (1) for each patch, apply it to the file it was originally for; (2) call msgcat on all the files to join them all together; (3) regenerate POT; (2) use msgmerge on the results of (2) and (3)06:31
pittican we please resolve these technical details later and go on with the agenda?06:31
Keybukelmo: did you really mean "woody"? :p06:31
danielselmo: woody?06:31
Kamionit's more useful to users not to have a separate Ubuntu changelog, I feel06:31
mdzpitti: the technical detail of the merge is significant because it will determine how the work progresses06:31
sabdflthe changelog problem is one of a general class of problems we'll have to solve for derivatives06:31
elmoyeah, I thought it'd give us a special old skool flavour06:31
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sabdflKamion: think about the general problem, debian->ubuntu->kubuntu06:31
mdzif we're going to fix up all of the conflicts by hand, we also need to do it consistently06:31
sabdfland i don't think a single file can convey it06:31
dokodaf: you need to recode file if the encoding changed06:31
Keybukmdz: so yeah, if we can work out a way of automating a given type of conflict, I can put that logic into hct so it can do it automatically later06:32
sabdflcertainly not one in the current format06:32
Kamionsabdfl: I know, but I still think it's actively more useful to users to have a single changelog06:32
mdzKeybuk: yeah, you'll need to do that anyway06:32
dafdoko: urgh, good point06:32
Kamionsabdfl: I've considered this fairly carefully ...06:32
sabdflKamion: or a tool which presents it that way06:32
mdzKamion: we'd need a changelog format which could represent branches meaningfully06:32
jdubi find it a pain to maintain ubuntu+debian packages06:32
mdzwhich would probably require version numbers which can represent branches meaningfully06:32
dafthere are disadvantages to using msgcat, though06:32
mdzwhich is a ways off :-)06:32
Kamionmdz: nah, I have a suggestion I'll feed you offline06:32
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fabbionesabdfl: changelog is used also to build the package itself. it's not a good idea to fiddle with it too much06:33
Keybukmdz: /debian/changelog.rej and /ChangeLog.rej I'm tempted to just do by stripping the context and applying them at 0,0 -- that usually "works" :o)06:33
pittiWith my recent merges, I packaged every ubuntu change as a debian/patches/ubuntu- patch, took the pristine Debian package and documented the Ubuntu patches in the changelog06:33
mdzKeybuk: apart from being out of order06:33
KamionKeybuk: better to merge changelogs in version order if possible ...06:33
dafKeybuk: I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on a file format that would be better than PO (even if they only relate to making diffs work better)06:33
pittiThis was quite a bunch of work, but it is very clean06:33
sabdfli understand that the toolchain uses it heavily, but part of our hoary goal is to generalise the platform for derivatives, and that will mean touching the toolchain06:33
Keybukmdz, Kamion: I've applied debian to warty, not the other way around06:33
mdzpitti: yes, that works when the package is already using dpatch06:33
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Keybukit's the debian changelog entries conflicting06:33
Keybukso putting those at the top *does* put them in order06:34
Keybuk<hoary> <new debian> <warty> <old debian>06:34
jonohi all06:34
mdzKeybuk: no, it doesn't06:34
pittimdz: for dpatch/cdbs packages this is actually very nice06:34
pittimdz: so we could do it for packages supporting it06:34
Keybukmoving warty to the top actually takes the changelog out of version order06:34
mdzKeybuk: the correct order could be something like <old debian> <less old debian> <old ubuntu> <current debian> <current ubuntu>06:34
Kamionsabdfl: I don't think separating the changelogs out is the right answer, though; the nCipher changelog format would be better (it documents branches inline), and I'll suggest something like that when we're not in a meeting06:34
Keybukmdz: that's the order we're going to get06:34
mdzKeybuk: ah, if you do the merges in version number order, yes06:35
mdzwait, no06:35
Keybukmdz: *nods* :)06:35
mdzyou'd need to do them in date order06:35
sabdflKamion: ok, sounds good06:35
danielsmdz: surely version order is more meaningful?06:35
Kamionsabdfl: (this would also have benefits for things like BTS version tracking)06:35
mdzdaniels: it gets weird06:35
danielsmdz: it more accurately represents the branches, though06:36
pittidaniels: but you cannot really sort 2.0-0ubuntu1 and 2.0-106:36
mdzversion order leaves us with something that makes more sense in and of itself :-)06:36
pittidaniels: either one may happened sooner or later06:36
Keybukmdz: tomorrow afternoon UK, I can give you a collection of source packages with changelog and anything else I can obviously do automatically resolved06:36
danielsmdz: if you do it in date order, you'll end up with confusion because stuff that got changed in debian, wasn't in ubuntu at that stage06:36
Keybukeach one will be accompanied by a "this fell out" patch which will need manual review06:36
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mdzKeybuk: great06:36
Keybukand if we find ways of automatically doing that review, then I want to know about it to write code to do that next06:36
sabdflok, i think we can take this discussion out of band06:36
Keybukthe total lines of "this fell out" are pretty tiny, around 3,000 in total06:37
mdzinitial merge strategy is to let Keybuk lock himself in a room for a day06:37
mdzand then create bugs on the remainder06:37
Keybukwhich given nearly a million lines of changes is pretty good <g>06:37
Keybuk(ignoring .po files, which are evil, evil, evil)06:37
mdzif the remainder is small enough, we'll just do it by hand06:37
mdzeek, we do need to resolve that .po issue06:37
azeemthis whole problems smells like an application for that conary package thingy, which reportedly handles branches, patches and merges pretty well06:37
Keybukdaf: not putting a changing line number right before the bit that changes would be swell06:38
jdubazeem: ssshhh, be wery, wery quiet.06:38
mdzok, onward to feature goals06:38
mdzlet's take it from top to bottom06:39
mdzand for each item, determine whether it makes most sense for one of us to do it, or see if someone else listening would like to volunteer06:39
mdzfirst item is UTF-8, which is a bit of amorphous06:40
mdzwe'll set UTF-8 by default early in the release cycle, and just fix whatever breakage comes up06:40
mdzit's really a bunch of unclassified bugs at this point, rather than a feature06:40
Keybukyeah, I've been running utf-8 for a couple of years now; zsh is about the only breakage I notice06:40
pittiI have UTF-8 running for very long now, works nice for most parts06:40
mdzwhat will we do about existing Ubuntu installations?06:40
mdzleave them at non-UTF8, send out an announcement asking them to change?06:41
fabbionemdz: wiki -> utf8 howto ?06:41
pittiwould make most sense06:41
dokochanging the default from ISO to UTF8 on upgrade?06:41
KeybukKamion: what does debconf do in this situation?06:41
mdzfabbione: we should supply a script I think06:41
sivangadd something to ubuntu-desktop to do that? :)06:41
pittichanging ~/.profile files on upgrading would be hell06:41
Keybukfirst install the question was too low a priority to get asked06:41
mdzwhich handles generating locales and setting the default06:41
Keybukwhat happens if the value is different on the update06:41
KamionKeybuk: which?06:41
Keybukdoes it keep the old or go with the new?06:41
jdubmdz: shouldn't we switch as part of the upgrade, so systems are consistent by default?06:41
enricomake an application to handle post-upgrade configuration issues?06:41
mdzjdub: changing the locale on the user sounds fairly evil06:41
mdzenrico: something more like that, yes06:42
fabbionei wouldn't go for automatic changes of that level06:42
dokomdz: we don't change the locale, but the encoding06:42
enricoLike one runs that and gets a TODO-list of things to check06:42
KamionKeybuk: it's got a value already, it keeps it unless told otherwise06:42
mdzdoko: that is a locale setting06:42
elmoyeah, that's like spitting on the golden rule thing06:42
KeybukKamion: and a dpkg-reconfigure locales would change to the new value?06:42
pittimdz: we can't change the encoding automatically; this would break _every_ text file the user created06:42
sabdfljdub: golden rule06:42
KamionKeybuk: no06:42
mdzpitti: we are in agreement06:42
Keybukor do you have to nuke out config.dat ?06:42
KamionKeybuk: EVIL EVIL EVIL06:42
seb128if we change the system locale, what will happen with filename ?06:42
mdzwe will provide a tool which the user can run which will DTRT06:43
sivangpitti is right. why wasn't it set at UTF8 from first place?06:43
mdzwho will write it?06:43
jdubsabdfl: not a user chosen setting :)06:43
seb128we need to convert the filesystem ?06:43
pittisivang: because there are still some bugs06:43
mdzsivang: bugs06:43
seb128filenames even06:43
=== enrico was thinking filesystem charset, too
Kamionwe should make sure that UTF-8 is generated where possible, but I'm very leery of changing the default for existing installations06:43
sabdfli think this falls into the category of things that new installations get by default, upgrades get if they themselves do it06:43
sabdflKamion: agreed06:43
pittisabdfl: agreed06:43
Keybukenrico: GNOME does UTF-8 filenames whatever charset you're in, I think06:43
mdzKamion: will you write the utf8-enabler tool?06:43
pittiAutodetecting the existing encoding of an ASCII file is practically impossible06:44
sabdflwe will have a good "release notes" and "upgrade notes" which can document this06:44
Kamionmdz: can do, yeah06:44
enricoKeybuk: even on things like BIG5 VFATs?  (it would create illegal names)06:44
mdzok, great06:44
mdzand the bugs we'll fix as they come06:44
mdznext is a big one06:44
Kamionpitti: autodetecting the existing encoding of an *ASCII* file is trivial ... :-)06:44
mdzunified hardware detection06:44
ograwill there be any iso support in the apps left ?06:44
seb128Keybuk: nautilus does, but a lot of files are created out of nautilus ...06:44
pittiKamion: okay, but you don't need to change them anyway06:44
danielsmdz: i would kill to move off discover106:44
sabdflogra: yes, aiui06:44
mdzogra: yes, we won't try to remove support for non-utf8 encodings06:45
pittiKamion: but take a look at my ~, there are thousands of files with different encodings; some already in UTF-8, some in LATIN9, etc.06:45
sabdflby unified we mean:06:45
sabdfl - installer06:45
sabdfl - installed system06:45
sabdfl - live cd06:45
Kamionpitti: (you said ASCII, not text)06:45
danielssorry, my bad.06:45
mdzcurrently those use: discover1, hotplug and knoppix, respectively06:45
pittiKamion: whoops06:45
mdzmy position is that hotplug is the way forward for all three06:45
KeybukI guess hotplug is the target for unification06:46
sabdflin addition there's the layer of intelligence above the detection tools06:46
danielshowever, currently discover1-data has by far the most accurate hardware list, afaik06:46
sabdflfor example, x resolution and refresh06:46
fabbionewe might still need discover for X06:46
Kamionok, hotplug is one of the post-sarge goals for d-i06:46
Kamionwe can move forward on that ourselves, given udev-udeb and hotplug-udeb packages06:46
mdzfabbione: yes, I consider X a separate issue06:46
fabbionemdz: ok06:46
mdzthis one is purely kernel stuff06:46
rburtondoesn't discover load a few drivers which hotplug doesn't?06:46
Kamionhotplug doesn't do X stuff, so discover is still needed for that, but that's OK06:46
sabdflmdz: but we'll still need to unify the live cd x detection with the installer06:47
mdzrburton: installed Ubuntu has been using hotplug exclusively for some time now06:47
sivangrburton : this is what I was once told by joeyh06:47
mdzsabdfl: yes, I think we should consider that separately as well06:47
pittidaniels: does hotplug have hw lists at all? I thought it just uses the modules file from the kernel06:47
bob2pitti: purely from the kernel06:47
rburtonmdz, ah ok06:47
Kamionpitti: yes, modules.pcimap06:47
sabdflit's fundamental to the feature goal 06:47
sivangrburton : experimenting with that backed up his statement.06:47
bob2isn't that generated from the kernel?06:47
sivang(on sid)06:47
dafKeybuk: yeah, that would help06:48
danielssabdfl: tbh I haven't even looked at the live CD's autodetection, but that's one of the things we can look at06:48
lamontand then for grumpy eliminate the "separate but equal" (X vs kernel)?06:48
sabdflsound, video, webcam, modem, network06:48
KamionI'm happy to do the hotplug d-i integration, but does anyone know udev and hotplug well enough to produce udebs?06:48
Keybukpitti: if the kernel doesn't know a module can be used with a given id, it's a lost cause trying to load it *anyway*06:48
sabdfli'd like to be using the same codepaths for all of them06:48
mdzKamion: should be easy06:48
Kamion(I don't; I looked briefly before warty released, and got lost)06:48
mdzhotplug is just a bunch of scripts06:48
lamontKamion: I expect creating udeb's wouldn't be _that_ difficult, no?06:48
pittiKeybuk: right; at the time I typed this question I still thought we want to use it for X :-/06:48
mdzudev isn't much more06:48
mdzKamion: I'll lend a hand with that06:48
Kamionlamont: it's not hard, just a question of knowing the package really06:48
Kamionmdz: thanks06:49
lamontah, ok06:49
mdzfabbione: I know you have some ideas about the way forward for X autodetection06:49
KamionKeybuk: that's not always true06:49
mdzfabbione: what is the right way to unify it between the live CD and the installed system?06:49
fabbionemdz: yes06:49
Kamioncan I just flag up buses that aren't hotplug-enabled, too06:49
Kamionthe mac-io bus on powermacs is the big one06:49
mdzKamion: I have a patch for that06:49
Keybukisn't that enabled yet?06:49
Kamionmdz: what, to the kernel?06:49
KeybukI thought that was floating06:49
mdzKamion: yes06:49
Kamionmdz: cool06:49
fabbionemdz: i can simply create a script that simulate an installation to detect the hardware as i do in the normal installation and create a live config06:50
mdzwe can stage it for upstream06:50
Kamionwe'll still have the installer's register-module facility available for corner cases06:50
mdzfabbione: so we would change morphix to invoke something which would trigger the debconf magic, rather than using the knoppix stuff06:50
fabbionemdz: correct06:50
sabdflfabbione: can we shift the x scripts to python please?06:50
amui think rewriting live-hwdesting using discover/hotplug is not such diffifult, timeuseage is very high 06:51
fabbionesabdfl: no06:51
sabdflfabbione: why not?06:51
mdzamu: it should just be a matter of calling /etc/init.d/hotplug start, if we do our work correctly06:51
sabdflmdz: plus the config layer06:51
Kamionsabdfl: .config scripts can only use Essential: yes packages safely06:51
mdzsabdfl: config layer? for hotplug?06:51
sabdflKamion: see further down the list :-)06:51
fabbionesabdfl: because it is too much rework and as i was telling you a couple of days back i understimated the load to switch to x.org06:52
sabdflmdz: for eg sound config06:52
fabbionesabdfl: so i much rather keep what we can from Xfree8606:52
Kamionsabdfl: diverging from Debian on something as big as the X .config script is busy-work, surely?06:52
mdzsabdfl: we should use all of the stock Ubuntu stuff for that06:52
amumdz: with cdbackup it works  06:52
sabdfldetecting the card is one thing, setting appropriate levels etc06:52
Kamionsabdfl: also, upgrades06:52
sabdflKamion: i'm trying to standardise skill sets, which will pay off for us as a team later06:52
Kamionsabdfl: I know, but Essential is a very hairy place06:52
mdzthe other issue is that python is huge for an essential package06:53
sabdflunderstood, having python there is not something i'm going to budge on06:53
Keybuksabdfl: the issue comes where Python has to be installed, configured and completed before *any* package using it is installed06:53
Keybukso it gets a bit hairy06:53
mdzsabdfl: the python guys will scream if we split up the standard library further :-)06:53
sabdflthe python guys will be thrilled that python has become Essential06:53
jdubooof, which bits would you choose for python-base, too...06:53
dokowe had the split once in Debian. there are no clear lines where to split it. but that further down the list.06:54
sabdflas for scchnnnaaakkee...06:54
fabbionesabdfl: we are going to deal with a new upstream and that will be already hell of a job. perhaps we can reconsider it for hoary+1, but i am not too crazy to do it now06:54
Kamionwill they? they weren't so thrilled about distutils not being there ...06:54
sabdflfabbione: no, since we are creating these packages from scratch, i'd like to do it right the first time06:54
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KamionI don't think they'd be happy unless the standard library's in one piece06:54
sabdflKamion: it will be, post install06:54
Kamionsabdfl: in some configurations ... :)06:54
Keybuksabdfl: but then you can't use any of the Python standard library in Python scripts in packages06:55
Keybuksabdfl: and Python is pretty useless without its standard library :(06:55
dokokeybuk: depends which modules and extensions you compile in statically06:55
sabdflok, separate discussion, i dont mind really, just do mind that python is in essential for ubuntu06:55
sabdfland that we use it for all system functions unless there's a bollocking good reason not to06:55
Keybuk(personally, I'd like to kick perl out of Essential :p)06:55
=== sivang thought it was going to be for GTK/GNOME wise
Kamionsivang: Essential's a technical category06:56
mdzok, the current unresolved item is the unification of hardware detection06:56
mdzwe can either do this as one task, or break it down06:56
mdzKamion said he would do the hotplugification of d-i06:56
sabdflmdz: i think we're all agreed on hotplug for device detection06:56
sabdflamu: live cd06:56
mdzso the remainder is live CD work06:56
mdzamu: ?06:56
jdubmdz: can we put someone in charge of that goal in general?06:57
mdzjdub: I will take responsibility for tracking the sub-tasks06:57
jdubthat was easy ;)06:57
mdzfabbione: what is your opinion about dynamic X reconfiguration at boot, to detect hardware changes?06:57
amuhmm good question, therorethically it should work  06:57
=== mdz ducks
fabbionemdz: i have some ideas already in that direction06:58
mdzfabbione: that would bring the live CD and the installed system in line with each other06:58
fabbionemdz: and a possible solution06:58
mdznd we will need it for a gui installer asa well06:58
fabbionemdz: that will come after X.org is out06:58
mdzfabbione: hoary?06:58
fabbionemdz: probably06:58
Kamionmdz: we don't need that for a GUI installer06:58
danielsmdz: it's difficult to do that without crapping all over user changes06:58
fabbionemdz: i am boiling the idea. i need to see with daniel if it's possible06:58
mdzwell, in both cases we need _something_ which works at boot06:58
danielsyes, X is too heavy for a GUI installer and a bootsplash.06:58
jdubdaniels: not for the installer06:59
fabbionemdz: hold on a sec. we are confusing 2 things here06:59
mdzdaniels: we could do it only if X fails to start06:59
jdubX is a good option for the installer06:59
danielsgui installer is directfb domain, imho, and bootsplash is mad phat splash's area06:59
Kamionjdub: not convinced06:59
fabbioneone thing is configuring X at boot time for liveCD06:59
mdzok, let's leave the gui installer discussion for another time06:59
jdubKamion: easier to deal with than gtkfb or directfb06:59
fabbioneand one is autoconfiguring it for the normal installation06:59
mdzwe're talking about unifying X config between the live CD and the installed system06:59
fabbionemdz: ok. i have already a solution for that. and yes it will be hoary07:00
mdzI think there is overlap between that, and dealing with hardware changes in the desktop07:00
Kamionjdub: directfb just comes up and just works, no effort whatsoever; I don't see how X could be easier07:00
fabbionejdub: Kamion is right07:00
fabbionejdub: X will only bring problems07:00
daniels(my parting shot: the framebuffer very rarely goes wrong -- like, ever; however, looking at the list, X autodetection is harder)07:00
sabdflmdz: at the very least, it would be possible to store a set of "detected values", and see if that has changed from one boot to the next, and prompt for reconfig07:00
danielsanyway, yeah, unifying the config from livecd to ubuntu is hoaryable07:00
mdzfabbione: ok, so you will take care of moving the live CD X configuration over to use our config system rather than knoppix07:00
sabdfli agree the gui installer is more directfb territory07:01
fabbionemdz: if i get the resources yes.07:01
jdubdaniels: (using fb doesn't rule out X...)07:01
ograwhat about kdrive ? 07:01
mdzsabdfl: let's treat the live CD piece of it as part of the unification goal, and the reconfigure-on-hardware-change as a separate feature?07:01
sabdflfabbione: you will, it's a priority, in python07:01
fabbionemdz: when i offered my help for the livecd, my ping was lost07:01
danielsogra: awful hardware support07:01
sabdflmdz: yes, that's what i was suggesting07:01
ogradaniles: vesa ?07:01
danielsogra: not an option07:01
fabbionesabdfl: sorry.. i lost the contest...07:01
sabdflhave a tool that looks at a store of "what was previously detected" and sees if that has changed07:02
sabdflfabbione: you will get the resources to unify live cd and installer x config in python07:02
mdzfabbione: contest?07:02
fabbionesabdfl: ok07:02
fabbionemdz: typo07:02
fabbionesabdfl: but that will kill the plan to configure X at debian-installer time07:03
fabbionesabdfl: that is something that we can probably do for hoary07:03
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mjg59sabdfl: One issue with using directfb for the installer is that someone needs to write an accessibility interface for directfb/atk then07:04
mdzfabbione: we don't need to configure X at debian-installer time; the current timing is OK for hoary07:04
mdzmjg59: good call07:04
mjg59X gives you already working a11y infrastructure07:04
Kamionmjg59: text mode + speakup might make more sense for hoary07:04
sabdflmjg59: hmm... can we run x on directfb?07:05
mdzhowever, using X in the installer would seem to be in conflict with Kamion's idea to support floppy installs :-)07:05
mdzsabdfl: yes07:05
mdzsabdfl: well, on fb07:05
mjg59Kamion: Speakup requires extra hardware, doesn't it?07:05
sabdfland we still have fall-back to text mode07:05
Kamionmjg59: well, yeah, depends on the kind of a11y07:05
mdzat present, GUI installer is not on the hoary list07:05
mdzand we have many more items to review which are07:06
mdzso can we table that discussion for now?07:06
jdubgui installer is on the hoary list, but it has sabdfl's question mark07:06
sabdfli won't commit to having a gui installer for hoary07:06
sabdflit will back us into a corner07:06
sabdfli've no problem with starting work on it07:06
mdzI propose that we not attempt ppc64 for hoary07:07
mdzthere is currently no real vacuum for it to fill07:07
sabdflmdz: won't attempt any further arch's unless a community team steps up07:07
mdzand it is a multiarch-wanting arch too07:07
sabdflif one does, we'll provide h/w07:07
dokoyes, that would need a toolchain update07:07
mdzok, consider it moved07:07
mdz" LSB compliant i386 libraries on amd64"07:08
mdzdoko: this is 32-bit compatibility?07:08
mdzwhat does it entail?07:08
elmowe'll need to do enough of ppc64 for G5 support, tho, right?07:08
elmo[sorry, I'm late] 07:08
mdzelmo: I expect we'll build a ppc64 kernel for the powerpc arch07:08
elmook, cool07:08
mdznoted in bugzilla and discussed with herbert07:09
elmoit'd suck to not support our own buildds ;-)07:09
mdzhey, we have our own h4x0red kernel for that07:09
Kamionyeah, ppc64 kernel != ppc64 userspace07:09
mdzelmo: you love custom kernels :-P07:09
sabdflnonetheless, elmo has a point07:09
mdzdoko: so what exactly would be involved in implementing this feature?07:09
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mdzI assume this would only provide basic support for compiling and running 32-bit apps07:10
mdzsince we are not going to do multiarch in the packaging system for hoary07:11
sabdfldo they get a limited set of 32-bit libs to work with?07:11
sabdflis this how we currently do mozilla and oo.o?07:11
mdzso that means a bi-arch gcc, and ia32-libs07:11
mdzsabdfl: yes, that's ia32-libs07:11
diemanheh, ubuntu is on /. again07:11
dokohmm, thought that this is Tollef's domain? See #277852 for a current discussion, if/what is needed for proper i386 support. needed: a working biarch toolchain, agreement where to put the ia32 libraries07:12
mdzif there is not yet agreement, then this is not something we should push for hoary07:12
mdzthe mention of LSB seems to imply that there is a standard07:12
mdzMithrandir is not here07:12
mdzlet's skip this item for now07:13
dokowether ia32-libs is a good idea? some libs already have biarch support like ncurses, readline, etc. so maybe just add to these libraries the 32bit things.07:13
mdzdoko: sabdfl would like an essential python package07:13
ograregarding the support side on amd64 , there should be a home for things like flash......07:14
mdzdoko: is there anything in the current python2.3 package which could be split in order to simplify it?07:14
mdzogra: I think the only way to support i386 flash is to have an i386 firefox, which we don't want to do07:14
dokoyes, I looked back at the point where we had split it.07:14
ogramdz: oh..... the peole are crying a lot about flash...07:14
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mdzdoko: there seems to be a fundamental conflict between providing the full python standard library, and having it be essential07:15
dokocodecs maybe make up a bit of code size, standard libraries which you don't need at a point of time... I'd prefer to have some use case for what we want with python at that point and then define the split.07:15
dokoshould this essential python work without /usr?07:15
mdzdoko: perhaps we could provide all of the pure python stuff07:15
mdzdoko: good question07:16
Keybukperl-base works without /usr07:16
mdzno it doesn't :-)07:16
Keybukperl-base DOESN'T work without /usr07:16
sabdfldoko, mdz, let's figure out the implementation separately07:17
dokowhy stop at pure, and don't have the zlib module? this line is artificial.07:17
mdz" Raise default dpkg-reconfigure priority, adjust packages as necessary?"07:17
mdzwe already did that for warty07:17
Keybukyeah, isn't that High already?07:17
Kamiondpkg-reconfigure != debconf07:17
Kamiondpkg-reconfigure's default priority is low07:17
mdzohh, right07:17
Kamionwhat's the use case for raising it?07:17
Kamiondpkg-reconfigure asks all questions by design07:17
mdzKamion: to make it more useful07:17
sabdflyes that causes the "million spurioous questions on reconfigure" experience07:17
Kamionmdz: that would make it less useful, actually07:18
mdz"all questions" is too many questions07:18
Kamionsabdfl: reconfigure is a deliberate choice, though07:18
sabdflKamion: those who want the full question set can ask for it07:18
Kamionpeople WANT to see all questions :-)07:18
Kamion(if they run dpkg-reconfigure)07:18
sabdflif they do, --priority=low07:18
mdzKamion: when we tell an Ubuntu user to run dpkg-reconfigure, they don't want to see all questions07:18
Keybukmdz: why would we tell a user to do that?07:18
sabdflreconfigure says "give me the same set of questions again"07:18
mdzKeybuk: because it is often the simplest way to solve their proble07:18
sabdflKeybuk: i think we will aim to provide a high level UI for that07:19
=== ogra agrees with mdz
sabdflfor example, inside aptitude, press a key to reconfigure a package07:19
Kamionok, don't think it should be as high as --priority=high though, medium feels better07:19
dokosorry, a bit late: is python2.4 default for hoary?07:19
sabdfland the questions should be the same as the questions on install07:19
mdzKamion: yes, I think medium is appropriate07:19
mdzKamion: the idea is to exclude the "control freak" questions07:19
mdzand just give them a basic level of configurability07:19
Kamionsabdfl: that just doesn't work with a lot of debconf scripts though07:19
mdzwhich is what medium should be07:19
Kamionmdz: right, agreed07:19
sabdflKamion: because they assume you've answered the question already?07:20
mdzreconfigure should ask more questions than at install07:20
mvo_sabdfl: synaptic support reconfigure via debconf (through the gnome debconf ui)07:20
mdzbecause install should exclude questions which have a reasonable default07:20
Kamionsabdfl: varies; they'll certainly often have different behaviour. debconf's arbitrarily scriptable07:20
sivangwhat's the profile of an average Ubuntu user anyway? what can we expect of them?07:20
sabdfli think we are asking for users to go from b0rked to v87686ked07:20
mdzbut reconfigure should ask questions which have a reasonable default, and give the user the opportunity to change them07:20
Kamionmdz: YES :-)07:20
Keybuksivang: ideally we don't have one; Ubuntu works for all users, not just the average one07:20
sabdflhold on07:21
sabdflhow do you tell a user "you answered the wrong way at install, do this, and answer it differently"07:21
mdzsabdfl: Kamion and I seem to be in agreement that what we want here is a default dpkg-reconfigure priority of 'medium'07:21
sabdflthat's fine, if i can see a list of new questions that introduces :-)07:21
sivangwouldn't it be wise to think up one, and then target it, and decide priorites by it (debconf)? surely we cannot target each and every user profile which might arise..07:21
Kamionif we made it 'high', it would often end up asking fewer questions, which I think would be worse07:21
mdzsabdfl: that is a problem of unsolvable complexity, I fear :-)07:22
jdubsivang: (this is slightly more abstract than that)07:22
Kamionwe can attempt to produce one for base+desktop, probably07:22
sabdflkamion: i'd like to really define the set of questions that a user is ever likely to see07:22
mdzit varies depending on arbitrary criteria07:22
fabbionemdz: i don't have a very strong opinion on raising to medium, but i think changing it will create some kind of extra debugging work for the users when we have to ask to reconfigure with --priority=low07:22
sivangor maybe let them choose the profile, and configure debconf accordingly ? (please excuse me if this is all babble)07:22
mdzsabdfl: do you agree that reconfiguration should ask a different set of questions than at initial install, given that our goal for many packages (all of deskop) is that they not ask any questions at initial intsall?07:23
sabdflin fact, i don't mind if we do this, but it means i'm going to have to review every single "medium" question07:23
Keybukto be honest, I think I tend towards defaulting to --default-priority; as that's generally unsurprising07:23
KamionKeybuk: but will generally mean dpkg-reconfigure does absolutely nothing07:23
mdzKeybuk: that does nothing in most cases07:23
KamionI don't think taking a useful command and turning it into a no-op is good07:23
=== mdz channels harder
sivangwhy not having it low priority install time, and raise it automatically on reconfigure? (assuming this requests for more control)07:24
Kamionsabdfl: maybe we shouldn't be recommending dpkg-reconfigure in general ...07:24
sabdflok, let's go with medium, but then you guys are going to have to put up with a lot of bugs from me in that regard :-)07:24
Keybukit still does the effect of the settings, as in postinst?07:24
mdzthis change falls under the heading of stuf that we should change early07:24
sabdflKamion: need some tool to do it07:24
mdzso that we can catch as much of the fallout as possible through routine testing07:24
Keybukmdz: yeah, first thing type change07:24
Kamionsabdfl: or, at least, for a very limited set of packages, like xserver-xfree8607:25
mdzsabdfl: I think most of those bugs will be trivial ones07:25
sabdflKamion: could you produce a script to mail me all of the questions in debconf, for main/restricted packages, that would be visible at medium or higher priority07:25
mdzsabdfl: things which are medium and should be low07:25
mdzsabdfl: the worst of it will be that we need to rewrite some text for the questions07:25
sabdflmdz: yes, we will need to, guaranteed07:25
Kamionsabdfl: ok, will try07:25
sabdflKamion: tvm07:25
mdzKamion: as long as you're taking on work, will you be the one to upload debconf with the default priority change for dpkg-reconfigure?07:25
Kamion(sometimes priorities are programmatically determined, so it may be fun)07:26
Kamionmdz: yeah, that's easy07:26
mdzKamion: it'll be on the list of things to break early, with your name next to it07:26
mdzmoving on07:27
mdzSE Linux07:27
jdublet's dump it07:27
mdzthis is a highly specialized project07:27
pittiI would really like to see some easy support for MAC07:27
mdzI don't think we need to do it in-house, but I would love to see a proof of concept from a third party07:27
Keybukif we want SE Linux, we need someone who knows all about it07:27
sivangKamion : any example ?07:27
mdzKeybuk: agreed07:27
Keybukfrom what I can tell with my chats with them, there's an arch-like learning curve to it07:27
dokopitti: MAC?07:27
pittiDo we really want SELInux support?07:27
sabdflit's going to be a user nightmare if we fiddle with selinux07:28
pittidoko: Mandatory Access Control07:28
thomdoko: mandatory access control07:28
mdzsabdfl: it strikes me as something to do as a derivative07:28
pittiApart from the fact that SELInux is in upstream kernel, it is very complicated07:28
jdubwe just won't have the cycles to do it propery for hoary07:28
mdzsabdfl: and then fold in once it is shown to work07:28
sabdflmdz: good call07:28
jdubmdz: agree07:28
Keybukand there's probably at least 6 months work on dpkg before it can even support it as well07:28
pittiWe should develop it in Hoary time and publish it in grumpy07:28
thomyeah. fedora seem to be having a lot of problems getting it usable07:28
sabdflsubuntu :-)07:28
mdznext up is fresher and juicier glibc07:28
mjg59Did Fedora go with SELinux in the end?07:28
danielssabdfl: is subuntu the distro with a root account per default?07:29
mdzapparently, Debian's glibc is ages old07:29
jdubmjg59: FC3 has a very very basic default configuration07:29
Keybukmjg59: backed most of it out to a policy just for things like ssh07:29
pittiCan't we pick up something easier, like grsecurity or RSBAC?07:29
Keybukmdz: it isn't07:29
Kamionmdz: it'll be updated right after sarge07:29
danielsmjg59: yes, although far more toned down from fc2's aggressive policies07:29
azeemmdz: jbailey was working on updating glibc, AFAIK07:29
Keybukmdz: it's one minor release behind07:29
Keybukunless I'm missing something entirely07:29
Kamionmdz: it's only been frozen because we (Debian RMs) are bastards :)07:29
sabdflpitti: any of those things immediately takes us way out on a limb07:29
mdzis BenHerrenschmidt here?07:29
dokoafaik, newer glibc is tightly coupled with newer gcc ... :(07:29
mdzhe proposed this, and might have some details about what it means07:29
elmomdz: no07:29
azeembut he stopped a bit when he noticed sarge wasn't about to get released soonish07:29
thommdz: he's in .au, so most likely asleep07:29
jdubmdz: no, but we should get more details from him about it07:29
Keybuk^ the latest there is 2.3.307:29
KamionKeybuk: glibc's stopped making releases, you have to pull CVS07:29
jdubmdz: happy to take an action07:29
mdzok, so is this simply a "track Debian" sort of thing, then?07:29
pittisabdfl: why? We shouldn't install it by default, but we could have apt-get install xxx-server-profile or xxx-desktop-profile07:30
KeybukKamion: oh, I didn't know that07:30
elmomdz: I think so07:30
Keybukthat's kinda scary07:30
dokokamion: there is 2.3.307:30
jdubmdz: i can clarify it from him07:30
thom(new glibc gets us NPTL on powerpc, amongst other things)07:30
azeemKeybuk: glibc stopped doing proper releases, 2.3.3 is a sort-of stable snapshot from last year, AFAIK07:30
pittisabdfl: grsec/rsbac/lids only need kernel support and tiny userspace programs07:30
mdzif sarge doesn't happen soon enough to get it from Debian, is it worth moving ahead of Debian?07:30
dokothom: only with gcc-3.407:30
mdzi.e., what do we get out of newer glibc?07:30
Kamionwhich basically means we need hard-core glibc experts on staff to make it work07:30
Keybukchanging libc smells like abandoning binary compatibility with Debian to me07:30
mdz1. NPTL on powerpc07:30
jdubmdz: can we pass on this and get more feedback from benh?07:30
mdzjdub: ok, let's07:30
danielsbenh was saying that most of the problems with glibc were !(i386|amd64|powerpc), i.e. mostly NOTWARTY07:31
Kamionsince picking a working glibc out of CVS is generally experts' work07:31
mdzjdub: will you get that feedback?07:31
daniels(glibc -> CVS glibc)07:31
jdubmdz: happy to take the action07:31
mdznext up, usplash07:31
sabdflno releases from glibc? nnaaaiiice07:31
sabdflkernel, glibc, the yellow submarine07:31
=== azeem suggests talking to jbailey for glibc
mdzsladen: are you here?07:31
Keybukno npmccallum either?07:31
jdubazeem: (benh raised the issue)07:31
danielsah, mad phat startup07:31
mdzusplash, for those unfamiliar, is the proposed boot splash implementation07:31
mdzwhich works in userspace using the kernel framebuffer, rather than patching it07:32
danielsi don't believe there is any contention over what's on the wiki right now07:32
mdzit also involves some dbus magic to provide a nice progress indicator07:32
jdubcan we bring these items back together?07:32
mdzjdub: which items?07:32
danielsmdz: not dbus until we can do some upstream hackery (libexpat in initrd, yuk)07:32
Keybukusplash -> have it if it's finished07:32
sabdflnpmccallum won't be on the team for hoary07:33
danielsmost of the bits of usplash are reasonably small07:33
mdzKeybuk: what we're here to decide is whether it will be done, and who will do it :-)07:33
Keybuksabdfl: oh?07:33
sabdflso we need to take this on internally or find a bounty candidate07:33
azeemjdub: fair enough, but jbailey is a glibc maintainer and was working on it for Debian anyway07:33
danielssabdfl: it's almost certainly doable internally, IMO07:33
mjg59Are we sure about being framebuffer based?07:33
danielsmjg59: as opposed to ... ?07:33
mdzmjg59: no, that's just current thinking07:33
sabdflKeybuk: grep -ir npmccallum ~scott/patches/warty07:33
mdzif the implementor wants to do X or aalib, I'll at least listen :-)07:34
mjg59I worry that using two different graphical mechanisms could result in weirdness07:34
mjg59There'll always be some hardware that'll work with one and not the other07:34
sabdflis fedora using a newer glibc?07:34
danielssabdfl: write small fb blitter; write small co-ordination daemon; write novtswitch (done); make gdm and lsb init lib usplash-aware07:34
mdzmjg59: we'll need to get framebuffer stuff into good shape eventually anyway07:34
sabdfldaniels: don't trivialise the issues, x-platform for a start07:34
jdubcan we bountyise this to sladen?07:34
mdzjdub: depends on sladen07:34
danielssabdfl: true07:34
Keybuksabdfl: so, uh, can someone update StaffOverview when people leave <g>07:34
thomsabdfl: yes, fedora is pretty much running off head of CVS07:34
mjg59mdz: This is sort of related to later stuff, but suspend/resume is going to be easier without framebuffer07:35
mjg59Probably massively easier07:35
sabdflKeybuk: yes, sorry, i should have07:35
mjg59(on x86, at least)07:35
mdzmjg59: are the framebuffer issues unsolvable?07:35
mjg59mdz: vesafb is never going to work across suspend/resume, because there's no way to reconfigure the mode07:36
jdubmdz: can we assign a 'project manager' to the goal, to sort out bounty, delivery, etc?07:36
mjg59vesafb-tng might be a better plan, but it's a big divergence from mainstream07:36
mdzjdub: we should decide whether one of us will do it, or bounty it out07:36
mdzit's looking like a bounty sort of thing so far07:36
jdubyes, i think it's a bounty07:36
mdzunless someone here has a very strong interest in it07:36
mdzok, bounty07:36
jdubnot sure it's critical enough to manage internally07:36
mdz" Do something smart with SMART?"07:37
jdubhold on07:37
sabdflmjg59: give me a quick rundown of the alternative options to fb for ubusplash?07:37
jdubcan we assign someone to manage the bounty?07:37
mdzsabdfl: X07:37
mdzjdub: I will07:37
mjg59sabdfl: Most straightforward is to start X /very/ early07:37
danielsfb or x, and i personally think x is a very bad idea; i think what's on the wiki is current best practice07:37
mjg59Which is what Fedora do07:37
mdzthe SMART proposition would involve getting the SMART tools installed by default, and having them do something useful by default07:38
mdzideally the user should get some notification when their disk is failing, etc.07:38
jdubmdz: sounds underspecified07:38
sabdflmdz: silbs and i have a PA starting in two weeks who can carry the load  of bounty state tracking07:38
mdzjdub: indeed07:38
danielsmjg59: yes07:38
jdubsabdfl: (that's good news)07:38
mdzsabdfl: administrative or technical?07:38
LeeColletonSMART tools don't work with SATA drives last time I checked07:38
danielsmjg59: but they also start kdrive to track init, which is just bong imo07:38
sabdflmdz: purely admin07:38
danielsmjg59: note that the current plans involve starting x very early07:38
Keybukdaniels: like, putting X in initrd ?!07:39
mdzsabdfl: ok, so I'll expect to continue to track technical progress07:39
Keybukloading ramdisk ......07:39
sabdfldaniels: but not THAT early07:39
mdzKeybuk: not as crazy as it sounds07:39
Keybukstill loading ramdisk .....07:39
danielsKeybuk: no07:39
danielssabdfl: right.07:39
sabdflmdz: i think we should have an internal contact for each bounty, clearly, but not always you07:39
sabdflit will be good to develop a little management capacity in the rest of the team too07:40
danielsbasically, start the system, kick in usplash, get a logo out to framebuffer early and drop in some icons and status text; after network init (the hostname *cannot* change under X in current implementations), start X in the background07:40
mdzsabdfl: less work for me is usually acceptable :-)07:40
danielswhen gdm has a login screen ready for the displaying, switch over to that07:40
mjg59If we want framebuffer functionality and we want suspend/resume, we're going to have to modify every single framebuffer driver07:40
sabdflmjg59: can you get rid of framebuffer post-boot?07:40
danielssabdfl: framebuffer 4 lyf, i'm afraid07:40
mdzthe SMART thing is underspecified; I'll put it on a list of vague stuff, and if someone wants to come along and propose something concrete, we'll revisit it07:40
mjg59sabdfl: Not trivially07:40
sivangsabdfl : could there be a more thorugh explenation for the bounties on the wary page? IMHO it should have already been moved to Hoary07:40
jdubsabdfl, mdz: a number of the goals with my name attached are ones i expect to manage, rather than do07:41
Kamionmjg59: that's kind of unavoidable on powerpc, mind ...07:41
sivangsabdfl : for example, what is doc-base registeration?07:41
mdzsivang: several of the goals assume a thorough working knowledge of Debian packaging07:41
mdzwhich would be necessary to complete them anyway07:41
thomsivang: every thing that ships documentation needs to register siad documentation with doc-base07:42
mjg59Kamion: PPC is less of a problem - people have already dealt with that07:42
Kamionmjg59: oh, the modifications aren't quite portable?07:42
mdzlet's take the usplash design discussion offline07:42
mdzwe have much more ground to cover07:43
mjg59Kamion: The current suspend/resume code relies on OF doing some reinitialisation07:43
mdznext up is the question of whether we should handle NTP differently for Hoary07:43
mdzusing ntpd rather than just running ntpdate at boot07:43
Keybukaren't we doing ntpdate+ntpd now?07:43
mdzno, we currently only do ntpdate07:43
lamontKeybuk: "No listening ports"07:43
Keybukahh, it's in the seed but doesn't do anything?07:43
dokothat was basically the delay problem, when you don't have a network connection?07:43
mdzthis proposal came from the fact that gnome-system-tools integrates with ntpd07:44
mdzand not ntpdate07:44
lamontit would be nice to have an ntpd listening on the port by default.07:44
mdzso it has a little checkbox which will install ntpd, and then let you configure which servers to sync with07:44
lamontthen again, the current ntpd is pretty fat07:44
ograthe delay could easy be solved by a poing in the bootscript07:44
Keybuklamont: it'd be nice to have cups listening, http listening, etc.07:44
mdzit'd be nice to get rooted07:44
danielsi think ntp would be much more doable if we were smart about miitool or iwtool or whatever for link beat07:44
lamontKeybuk: heh. yeah07:44
Keybukbut then we're security swiss-cheese07:44
sabdflcan ntpdate be run in the background?07:44
mdzsabdfl: yes, it can07:44
jdubdaniels: (NetworkManager)07:44
mdzin fact, I think it ignores errors currently anyway07:44
mdzbut the delay is a separate issue07:44
mdzntpdate and ntpd do different things07:45
sabdfllet's not do ntpd unless we really have to 07:45
lamontvery different07:45
Keybukyou need both07:45
sabdfli'd be much happier with a cron'd ntpdate07:45
dokothe delay isn't ntp specific. needs a mod to /etc/nsswitch.conf07:45
Keybukntpd keeps the clock in sync, but will cowardly not sync it if it's too far away07:45
Keybukntpdate syncs it, and then leaves07:45
sabdflyes, ntpdate is a one-timerr07:45
Keybuksabdfl: that's what we used to do at Demon to avoid the port07:45
elmothe cowardly thing is actually a feature tho07:45
mdzwe decided way back in london that we wanted ntpdate as a default07:45
Keybuk(well, you have the port, but only for a few seconds)07:45
lamontsabdfl: anyone relying on filesystem timestamps would be very unhappy with cron'ed ntpdate07:45
sabdflbut there's nthing stopping us from doing it regularly07:45
mdzso the obvious course would be to change g-s-t to integrate with our ntpdate package07:46
mdzrather than with ntpd07:46
sabdfllamont: where would you rely on filesystem timestamps?07:46
elmooh, btw, orthogonally, can we pretty please de-root ntpd, even if we don't install it by default07:46
mdzjdub: is that a reasonable proposition?07:46
Keybuklamont: anyone relying on filesystem timestamps that much would have configured ntpd themselves07:46
mdzelmo: good call07:46
elmothe ntpdate-regularly thing also breaks regular cron jobs07:46
jdubmdz: 'synchronise now' or 'set up regular cron job'? i'm kinda uncomfortable with the cron job too07:46
mdzjdub: 'synchronise now' button, and configure servers07:46
elmoas time just, err, doesn't behave like time.. whereas with ntp, it just speeds up or down :)07:46
sabdflseems we have the same problem either way07:47
mdzI'm not particularly hot on cron either07:47
lamontKeybuk: make users don't particularly care that time is accurate to within hours, they just care that it's monotonically increassing07:47
jdubmdz: that'd be great07:47
mdzjdub: bounty?07:47
jdubmdz: yeah07:47
Kamionwithout regular ntpdate, time is at least approximately monotonic. :-)07:47
mdzjdub: someone from gnome?07:47
pittisabdfl: rather than cron, wouldn't /etc/network/ifup.d/ make much more sense? I. e. for dialup users07:47
jdubmdz: yes07:47
sabdflcan we use ntpdate to nudge the clock syncing algorithms in the right direction?07:47
Kamionsabdfl: that's more what ntpd's for really07:47
Keybuksabdfl: ntpd is the clock-syncing algorithms07:47
jdubmdz: have a candidate for quite a few of these07:47
lamontsabdfl: all ntpdate does is yank time to the current time07:47
mdzok, so that's on the bounty list07:48
lamontntpd slews the local clock to keep it there07:48
elmoif the problem is the open port, can't we just bounty someone to fix that?07:48
mdznext up is speeding up the boot process07:48
elmoor is it inherent to ntp's design?07:48
Keybukelmo: that's because ntpd uses udp, isn't it?07:48
mdzKeybuk: yes, but it could still be improved07:48
Keybukmdz: didn't you rewrite hotplug in Perl?07:48
mjg59ntpdate can make the clock run backwards and confuse everything07:48
mdzKeybuk: yes, and then reverted it because perl needs /usr07:48
sabdfl*cough* *splutter*07:48
Keybukmdz: I'd be tempted with a little C parser for that07:48
mdzKeybuk: yes07:48
mjg59If you're running slow, ntpdate will make your screensaver come on07:49
=== enrico leaves the meeting
mdzKeybuk: but ssshh, before sabdfl insists that it be rewritten in python :-)07:49
enricoPlease reach me in the next days if you need anything07:49
mdzmjg59: that seems like a bug in xscreensaver07:49
=== enrico [~enrico@81-174-12-206.f5.ngi.it] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
mjg59ntpd just makes your clock go faster or slower until it reaches the right time07:49
Keybukspeed is really critical for it, and the last thing you want is to haul Perl or Python into memory ... that's not going to be hugely faster than shell07:49
=== martinald [~hm@martinalderson.plus.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
mdzKeybuk: hauling perl into memory was a big win07:49
mjg59mdz: The results from gettimeofday() suddenly change...07:49
sabdflis hotplug very complex? why not bounty a C implementation?07:50
Keybuksabdfl: *shrug* I could do it in a few hours07:50
mjg59I'm off home - back in 15 minutes or so07:50
mdzsabdfl: it's not very complex at all07:50
KeybukI'm reasonably sure I wrote one and have it on my disk somewhere07:50
sabdflKeybuk: go for it07:50
mdzbut it's easier to maintain in shell07:50
Keybukin fact, I *know* I wrote one07:50
sabdflis it the shell that makes it slow?07:51
mdzit's the fact that it uses shell *exclusively* that makes it slow07:51
sabdflor is it hardware delays?07:51
Kamionsabdfl: parsing in shell tends to be slow, you have to fork lots of processes07:51
mdzI suggest that we rewrite certain bits in C07:51
mdzand not the whole thing07:51
sabdfli thought they put in a deliberate delay to avoid some race condition in specific kernel versions07:51
Kamionit's just the modules.pcimap parser isn't it?07:51
Keybukmdz: I was thinking the pcimap etc. parsers07:51
mdzKamion: that's most of it, yes07:51
mdzKeybuk: exactly07:51
mdzthat's what I rewrote in perl07:51
dokowe could use ash as /bin/sh to make things a bit faster.07:52
mdzand saved about 0.3 seconds per device07:52
Keybukand I know I wrote one for i-d; so I've just got to find it07:52
mdzanother item under the same heading is starting gdm earlier07:52
danielsmdz: as I mentioned before07:52
mdzthat's a large perceived performance benefit07:52
mdzI think we were in agreement that we should just do it07:53
mdzearly on, and fix whatever breaks07:53
danielsyou can start gdm as soon as you know the hostname won't change from under you07:53
Keybukmdz: stick the hotplug parser under me, it'll give me something to do during test case runs :p07:53
danielsif the hostname changes under X, you're totally screwed07:53
mdzKeybuk: ok07:53
mdzneed someone to take responsibility for gdm07:54
mdzsince that's on the early breakage list07:54
Keybukdo we know how early it *can* be started?07:54
danielsmight as well take that one07:54
danielsKeybuk: i have a very good idea07:54
mdzKeybuk: I've started it as the first thing in runlevel 207:54
mdzwith on il leffects07:54
Keybukit probably needs all the Utopia stuff for when the user logs in07:54
mdzno ill effects07:54
mdzdaniels: ok, yours07:54
mdznext up, we have some kernel stuff07:55
mdzwhich I think is probably bounty-oriented07:55
pittiKeybuk: hal must be running, the other stuff is gnome session07:55
Keybukmdz: I have it at 21 ... I needed alsa, dbus and fam loaded first07:55
mdzoh, speaking of dbus07:55
mdzthe other side of the start-gdm-early coin is displaying startup notifications for the things that start after it07:56
mdzwith a little dbus magic07:56
danielsmdz: usplash07:56
mdzoverlap with usplash07:56
danielsmdz: (the usplash daemon just either writes out to the fb or X as is appropriate)07:56
mdzanyway, the next few items on the agenda are fixing the various warts in how we load kernel modules07:56
danielspersonally, i think that is wholly subsumed by usplash07:56
mdzthe fact that IDE stuff doesn't Just Work is the big one07:56
mdzalso figuring out the right strategy for drivers which are no longer autoloaded with udev07:57
mdzunless anyone here has a strong interest and the domain knowledge for it, I suggest it be a bounty07:57
Kamionhaving mount load loop when needed would clean up a lot of user questions07:57
fabbionemdz: bounty07:57
thommdz: agree07:58
Kamionbut yes, bounty07:58
mdzKamion: having it autoloaded somehow, whether it's mount's job or something else's needs to be determined07:58
seb128bounty yes07:58
mdz" Go back to the LiveSeed? idea to provide a more demonstration-worthy LiveCD?"07:58
lamontmdz: that has a pre-req of "make liveCD seeed fit..."07:58
jdubthat's probably a non-issue given the size of the livecd + winfoss bits07:59
mdzthis seems to raise the question of whether we want to try to make the live CD snazzier than the default desktop07:59
Kamionif LiveSeed is a strict subset or superset of each of the other seeds, that's fine, otherwise tricky in germinate07:59
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jdubi think we do07:59
jdubfor instance, i'd like to have a package of demo files07:59
mdzas you say, I don't think we can add much due to space constraints07:59
Kamiondesktop-plus-some-stuff-from-supported would work07:59
danielslive dvd?07:59
Kamion(or desktop-minus-some-stuff)07:59
mdzKamion: yeah, that's what it'd be07:59
jdubKamion: yeah, +/- would be good07:59
jdubbut all within supported08:00
lamontjdub: but not both08:00
ogradaniels: wont work in cd roms08:00
Keybuk- ttf-baemuk! </lamont>08:00
Kamionbut if we want to add some bits from supported and take away pieces, the germinate-fu gets complicated08:00
sabdfldo we have space?08:00
lamontsabdfl: after tossing celestia, I think we're at 650MB or so08:00
jdubsabdfl: winfoss makes it hard08:00
mdzsabdfl: it's very tight08:00
sabdflthen i vote for parity between livecd and installed08:00
jdubanyway, this could be a derivative livecd08:01
jdubfor demos08:01
jduband stuff08:01
mdzI think we should probably leave the package list alone for hoary08:01
mdzfor the live CD08:01
mdzi.e., match desktop08:01
jdubsabdfl: parity for the official livecd, yeah08:01
sabdflwe could well have derivatives in place for hoary08:01
lamontjdub: maybe a demoCD which puts your cool hoary packages in insead of WinFOSS?08:01
mdz" Optionally encrypted home directories that work out of the box (MartinPitt?)"08:01
jdublamont: yeah08:01
mdzpitti: would you like to say something about this?08:01
Kamionpartman was designed with support for encrypted filesystems in mind08:01
pittiI played around a little today with several implementations08:02
pittiI won't discuss them here, I will mail08:02
Kamionbut it's not been implemented in partman yet08:02
pittiI just wnat to ask if there is consensus that we want support for it08:02
lamontI would like my USB dongle to automount after asking me for a passphrase...08:02
mdzpitti: I'm not sure exactly what it is08:02
mdzpitti: would this be cryptoloop stuff?08:02
pittiIMHO it would be a great thing for laptops08:02
mdzI think it's a lot of complexity for the default install08:02
fabbionepitti: i would like it hounestly08:02
pittinot necessarily cryptoloop08:02
pittifrom the user's view nothing changes08:02
Kamionpitti: are we talking about having /home be a cryptofs, created in the installer?08:02
sabdflnot by default08:03
pittiif he logs in, his homedir is transparently decrypted08:03
=== jdub likes the idea of crypto partition gui love, but not convinced about supporting crypto home stuf
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pittiKamion: I think it needs installer support to have it from the beginning08:03
Keybukcrypto home sounds slow to me08:03
Kamionpitti: indeed08:03
jdubconsider that people will go, "ooh! this smells like security!"08:03
pittiit should be optional08:03
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Kamionsabdfl: right, I don't think it's a default thing08:03
pittiIt does not make sense for desktops08:03
pittithe user should deliberately choose it08:03
mdzI don't see why /home should be special08:03
jdubpitti: can we support it sanely?08:04
pittiwe don't need to encrypt the whole partition08:04
Kamionpartman may grow this sort of stuff if we just wait for the Anton Zinoviev machine to grind out code :-)08:04
mdzif you want encryption, it should be across the board08:04
pittiencrypting just some files or directories is actually less hassle08:04
sabdflmdz: you know a user is around when you want to access it08:04
dokopitti: why not, but you would have to mount separate ones for /home/*08:04
pittibut it does not make sense to encrypt e. g. /us08:04
pittiI mean /usr08:04
pittidoko: not mount, just encrypt the directories separately08:04
pitticryptoloop is not the only (and not the best) implementation08:04
mdzok, let's discuss this on ubuntu-devel and hash it out08:05
sabdflso to speak08:05
pittiso is there general interest?08:05
mdzsabdfl: har har08:05
amuKamion: you cannot feeC[Cl the differents between a crypred dev and a normal. Computeres are too fast.    08:05
jdubpitti: i'm concerned about supportability08:05
pittiThat was the only question, I will work out details and bring it to the list08:05
mdzpitti: it's interesting, yes08:05
mdzwhether we can and will do it depends on the details08:05
pittijdub: I will work that out08:05
ograwaht about repairing a broken FS pitti ?08:05
sabdflpitti: it may be something i prefer a bounty / contractor to do, rather than internal resources08:05
pittiogra: I don't see what's different. e2fsck does not care whether the data looks like garbage08:06
pittisabdfl: your choice :-)08:06
ograpitti im ean dd rescue on a broken disk i.e.08:06
LeeColletonWRT encryption.. will there be a GUI key manager for hoary?  The new seahorse goes a long way towards integration with the desktop.08:06
pittiIf we want to do it inhouse, I would like to deal with it08:06
pittiogra: of course the rescue copy will still be encrypted08:06
mdzLeeColleton: doesn't gnome-keyring-manager handle that stuff?08:06
pittiogra: you need the same password to decrypt it08:06
jdubLeeColleton: (new seahorse will be considered)08:06
jdubmdz: no08:06
=== mvo_ likes the idea of encrypted /home
ograbut can i decrypt easily08:06
jdubmdz: that's for gnome-keyring (not gpg related)08:07
bob2mithrandir was working on some dm-crypt gui stuff, iirc08:07
pittiogra: it is transparent08:07
=== mjg59 is back
ograpitti: k08:07
Keybukmy god, we're nearly a quarter of the way though08:07
pittiogra: it could be encrypted with your login password08:07
pittiogra: and we need a PAM module for this, but there are solutions08:07
ficusplanetWhat are you guys thinking in regards to mono for hoary?08:07
mdzright, moving on08:07
jdubLeeColleton: (can you put it on the HoaryHedgehog/SupportedSeed proposals list please?)08:07
mdzif anyone has suggestions that are not already on the list, please discuss them on the ubuntu-devel mailing list after the meeting08:07
jdubficusplanet: (we're working to an agenda, see HH feature goals)08:07
ograpitti: as long as i can repair it with, say knoppix ....if nothing else is handy08:07
ficusplanetjdub, thanks08:08
mdzwe have enough to discuss with what is on the list; the page has been open for suggestions for a long time now08:08
pittiogra: depends on the concrete implementation. Repairing an fs is always possible, though08:08
mdznext up, kernel unification08:08
mdzthis is herbert's domain08:08
ograpitti: :)08:08
mdzI think we know exactly what needs to be done08:08
jdubmdz: (btw, are you modifying the page as we go?)08:08
mdzjdub: I'm making notes and will replace the page wholesale08:08
LeeColletonjdub: where is the proposals list?08:08
jdubmdz: ok08:09
mdzwhat about inotify?08:09
jdubLeeColleton: HoaryHedgehog/SupportedSeed08:09
jdubmdz: should definitely go in, something for herbert08:09
mdzjdub: has it been submitted upstream?08:09
jdubnot accepted yet08:09
Keybukinotify seems to be the way forward08:09
mdzframebuffer-based bootsplash is superseded by usplash08:09
Keybukand it makes fam+portmap go away :)08:09
Keybuk(gamin does too, but it makes the whole problem easier)08:10
Kamionmdz: kernel unification> restricted-modules too08:10
mdzKamion: hmm?08:10
sabdflANNOUNCEMENT: we got our first customer for a tech support contract today END ANNOUNCEMENT :-)08:10
seb128yeah :)08:10
mdzsabdfl: EXCITEMENT wonderful! END EXCITEMENT08:10
dokocanonical ltd? ;-)08:10
=== mvo_ is happy about that
sabdflkeep going :-)08:11
Kamionmdz: linux-restricted-modules and the udebs of same08:11
mdzKamion: yes, includes that08:11
mdzI'll make an explicit note08:11
sabdflw.r.t. kernel, i've discussed creating a six-month release of 2.6 for broader use than ubuntu08:11
sabdflwith herbert08:11
mdzwhich I think is a fantastic idea08:12
sabdflit would be timed to our release schedule, since it's our core funding, but the idea would be to build a small community around it08:12
sabdflfor the smaller distros08:12
dokosabdfl: what does this mean? two kernel upgrades per year?08:12
sabdfldoko: yes, in a predictable release schedule08:12
sabdflbecause at the moment, we have crack from upstream08:13
mdzmoving on, we have a bunch of installer stuff08:13
mdztops of which is the controversial gui installer08:13
dokonice idea, that would include the binary tools needed for restricted modules?08:13
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mdzsabdfl: gui installer decision?08:14
sabdflnot for hoary08:14
mdzok, pushing it back08:15
sabdflno problem starting down the road, balanced against hoary priorities08:15
KamionGUI installer status: boots with much hackery, nothing too fundamentally painful; need debconf protocol extensions to make it be a good UI; will need coordination with #debian-boot folks; recommend starting early even if we don't finish for hoary08:15
pittiwhat's kickstart?08:15
sabdflyes please!08:15
mdzpitti: unattended semi-custom installs based on a config file08:15
Kamionpitti: Red Hat mass deployment thing08:15
jdubkickstart == RH compatible pre-seed format08:15
mjg59The RH implementation was moderately sucky when I played with it08:15
sabdfldoes it have to be RH-compatible? would that be the hard part?08:15
mjg59Making it similar to RH would ease transition08:16
Kamionkickstart's specification looks remarkably similar to d-i preseed when you look at it; it says things like "if you don't answer a question, the installer will ask the user"08:16
jdubsabdfl: the format, yes; the data, no08:16
Kamionsabdfl: sysadmins of my acquaintance would kill for it08:16
mdzI think the useful subset of RH-compatibility would not be that hard08:16
Kamionhowever, I believe that it's "just" a format translation job08:16
jdubkickstart generation guis already exist, etc.08:17
Kamionfor the bits that usually vary between distros, sysadmins are already used to having different fragments for RH/SuSE, etc.08:17
mdzanyway, kickstart is something we'll do for hoary, but needs spec work08:17
mjg59Kickstart would be a very good thing to push back into Debian08:17
Kamionmjg59: yep08:17
mdznext up, the fancy keyboard selector08:18
mdzsmells like bounty to me08:18
Kamionthere's localization-config in Debian08:18
fabbionemdz: i will be very glad to get rid of X keyboard management08:18
mjg59(Regardless of the reality of things, some people are feeling like http://unstable.buildd.net/index-i386.html - obviously useful chunks of infrastructure make life better)08:18
Kamionthat's Konstantinos Margaritis' work (Skole)08:18
mdzlocalization-config is like what we do now for X08:18
mdzthe fancy selector is something much fancier :-)08:18
Keybukfabbione: will X.org still work with the GNOME Keyboard Preferences stuff?08:18
Kamionah, I thought l-c was better, haven't looked in detail yet08:18
mdzthis is the thing which deduces your layout by having you type things08:18
danielsKeybuk: yes08:18
mdzand uses that to seed everything which needs keyboard layout info08:18
fabbioneKeybuk: i don't know yet08:18
mdzconsole and X08:18
mdzit requires some fairly broad knowledge about layouts and their differences08:19
fabbionemdz: we use the same code for X now and it doens't look that good considering the bugs we got08:19
mdzfabbione: this is not the same thing, it is a different project08:19
fabbionemdz: we need to involve the console-data maintainer to do the right thing08:19
danielsthe problem is the zero-question assumption08:19
danielssome people in the czech republic have us-layout keyboards08:20
mdzwe will not guess as we do not08:20
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mdzwe will ask once, and ask very thoroughly08:20
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mdzok, going on the bounty list08:20
KeybukLanguage, Timezone and Keyboard are sensible questions to ask everybody08:20
Keybukeven MS ask them08:20
mdzhotplug installer we already covered as part of unifying hardware detection08:20
Keybukthough highlighting the most common answer is a win08:20
fabbioneKeybuk: our problem is sync X and console08:20
mdz" support for multiple network devices of same type"08:20
danielsmdz: bountying out to someone with very good keyboard knowledge (of which there are very few) is recommended08:20
mdzKamion: ?08:20
Kamionmdz: I don't know what that is?08:21
mdzneither do I08:21
Kamionmdz: maybe it's ISDN bonding or something08:21
KeybukI thought hotplug solved that?08:21
mdzI certainly hope not08:21
Keybukassuming he's talking about the 2.4-era of having to tell the module to create eth0 and eth1 type things08:21
Kamionmdz: whatever it is, it stinks of bounty or "wait for Debian to do it" to me :-)08:21
jdubmight be refering to ifrename things08:21
mdzmarking it as not-enough-info08:21
mdz" Option to set up proxy/authentication before attempting first apt-get update"08:21
mdzthis one would require sabdfl approval to ask another question in every install08:22
Kamionthe code's there, but it fell to the "fewer questions" axe08:22
fabbionemdz: we explicitly killed that question if we could reach archive.u.c08:22
Keybukwhat's the loss with the way we do it now?  I thought we tested08:22
mdzbut there has been user demand for it08:22
Keybukfabbione: indeed, don't we test and then ask if it fails08:22
Kamionfabbione: but do we ever ask that question? I've never seen it08:22
mdzKeybuk: what we lose is caching proxies08:22
lamontjust because I can reach a.u.c doesn't mean I want to go that path..08:22
mdzwhich is a big win for mass installs08:22
mdzsabdfl: ?08:23
fabbioneKamion: yes, we ask if we cannot reach archive08:23
Keybukisn't that what custom is for?08:23
Kamionfabbione: I think that code might be buggy, because I would have seen that question.08:23
fabbioneKamion: but that happens with choose-mirror08:23
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Hoary kickoff meeting
lamontfabbione: define "reach"08:23
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Hoary kickoff meeting || Agenda: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryKickoffMeeting
fabbionelamont: wget a Package file or a Release.08:23
fabbionelamont: can't remember08:23
dokotell the user to pull the plug if wants proxy support08:23
mdzok, we'll leave this one as pending a decision, since the code is already there and just needs to be switched on08:23
Kamionlet's file a bug on that and move on08:23
mdz" CD-based upgrade?"08:24
lamontdoko: sadly, pulling the plug just means you don't get prompted for _any_ network source.08:24
lamontor does it....08:24
mdzthe idea of that one would be to be able to insert a Hoary CD on a Warty machine and have an upgrade happen08:24
Keybukmdz: would be nice if you could put the CD in and it do the right thing08:24
Keybukshould be pretty trivial too?08:24
Kamionis that apt-cdrom-style, or boot from CD (a.k.a. crack)?08:24
lamontas in auto-run?08:24
mvo_mdz: with some kind of auto-run?08:24
mdzKamion: autorun type thing08:24
mdzKamion: not boot from CD08:24
dokolamont: anyway it would counter intuitive to pull the plug for configuring some network stuff ;)08:24
mdzwe have no autorun in warty, but that'd be the general idea08:24
jdubautorun is off by default08:25
fabbionebut do we have some sort of autorun in place that can take care of warty -> hoary?08:25
mdzdouble-click and have it run apt-cdrom, change sources.list and go08:25
Kamionright-click -> upgrade would be nice08:25
lamontmdz: sounds like something we'd add in hoary to take advantage of with grumpy, no?08:25
mdzlamont: we can do it for hoary, it's just a double-click rather than autorun08:25
sabdfl(re proxy conf, sounds useful in corporate setting, like kickstart, perhaps with a boot-time command)08:25
Keybuklamont: make it an executable on the CD ... you put the CD in and run something on it08:25
mdzput something in the root of the CD called "DO THE UPGRADE PLEASE".sh08:25
mvo_mdz: I can take it08:25
Kamionsabdfl: you could easily preseed it08:25
Kamionsabdfl: (modulo tweaks to make sure preseeding works for that)08:26
sabdflkamion: agreed, useful for those who need it, not necessary to ask otherwise08:26
mvo_fits with the upgrade-center idea that Mitario proposed08:26
mdzsabdfl: I don't think we talked about the CD-based upgrade; what's your opinion?08:26
sabdfli like it08:26
mdzI'm happy for mvo_ to work on it08:27
sabdfl"good to have"08:27
mdzit should be a fairly small project08:27
sabdflnot sure it has to be automatic08:27
Keybukit should be pretty trivial ... the CD is an APT archive anyway08:27
mdzI think it would be very slick for it to be automatic, post-hoary08:27
mdzbut anyway that's the easy part08:27
sabdflnot *too* automatic though :-)08:27
mdzas automatic as other autorun stuff, i.e. prompt for confirmation first08:27
lamontand sudo password08:28
Keybukmdz: auto-run of binaries signed by a key in a keyring type thing?08:28
=== Kamion mails sabdfl a batch of trojaned CDs, just for fun
=== sabdfl installs everything Kamion sends me, just for fun
mdz" Install libglide3 library when one of the supported 3dfx cards is detected"08:28
lamontKamion: I was just going to burn one to carry around with me.. :-)08:28
Keybuk-> desktop seed suggestion08:28
mdzthis has a question from Kamion next to it which doesn't seem to have been answered08:28
mdzdaniels: do you know wha tit's about?08:28
sabdflisn't libglide3 toxic^Wproprietary?08:28
fabbionemdz: it's not dangerous to install libglide308:28
mjg59sabdfl: Not for years08:28
fabbionesabdfl: no08:28
mjg593DFX GPLed it before going under08:28
mdzlibglide3 is dlopened when using some cards or something?08:29
mjg59It's needed for DRI on Voodoo3/4/5/608:29
sabdflso let's make it part of X08:29
fabbionemdz: X uses it if the driver is 3dfx and if there is a compatible board08:29
mdzso, yes, desktop seed suggestion08:29
fabbionemdz: yes, it's dlopened08:29
mjg59Yeah, it's utterly harmless08:29
mdz" installer bootable from floppy (for older systems that don't boot from CD/network)"08:29
danielslibglide3 is fine for desktopseed08:29
bob2fabbione: can it emulate GL?08:29
mjg59Except for its crackful build system08:29
mdzKamion: ?08:29
daniels(sorry, just trying to figure out why my laptop's /home got shut down)08:29
Kamionmdz: that's fairly trivial, I only disabled it for warty because we didn't have time to test it08:30
Kamionwe've had a lot of requests for it08:30
fabbionebob2: it is for GL08:30
bob2fabbione: ah. thanks.08:30
mdzKamion: ok, added to the list of stuff to switch on early and start testing08:30
mdz" installer bootable from USB drive (for laptops without CD drives)"08:30
mdzthat would be extremely cool08:30
=== fabbione did it once
pittid-i boots nicely from USB08:31
danielsshould work fine08:31
Keybukanother Kamion plaything08:31
Kamionpretty much likewise; I propose putting the netboot kernel and initrd in a form conveniently ddable to USB08:31
fabbione.. to bad i didn't have any device that could boot from USB08:31
dokonice to have it for our shop: memory stick preloaded with warty/hoary :)08:31
KamionDebian supports this, but they do it by telling you to put a businesscard ISO on the USB stick08:31
Keybukdoko: you can fit warty on a Laks watch at the moment :)08:31
Kamionsince we don't have businesscard ISOs and Warty won't fit on most sticks we need to take a slightly different approach, but it won't take long08:32
sivang500mb in it?08:32
pittiit works without an image, just the initrd and the kernel (and syslinux)08:32
mdzok, let's take a brief diversion and talk about the laptop goals08:32
Keybuksivang: 512MB08:32
sabdflhmm... think we can keep hoary under 512MB?08:32
mdzbecause mjg59 can't stay much longer08:32
pittiMy usbstick just needs 4 MB for a network d-i08:32
mjg59Sorry - feeling miserably unwell08:32
jdubsabdfl: unlikely08:32
Kamion(I have to go in about 40 minutes, BTW)08:32
mdzthe big laptop goal is going to be suspend support08:32
mjg59Let's make this quick then08:32
mdzmjg59: what's our strategy for that, regarding ACPI vs. swsusp etc.08:32
sabdflsoftware suspend?08:32
mjg59Suspend to disk is fairly easy, with the possible exception of nvidia08:33
mjg59There's some drivers that could do with fixups, but in most cases that's straightforward (and it's major community love)08:33
mdzthis is definitely something we should break early08:33
mdzwhat changes do we need to make?08:33
mjg59SuSE are shipping with swsusp enabled by default in 9.2, so there's no strong reason not to include it08:33
mjg59It's a kernel patch plus some modifications to let it work with initrd08:33
mdzmjg59: and also changing acpi-support to enable it by default?08:34
mdzwhat about acpi S3? do we care at all?08:34
jdubswsusp requires swap >= ram?08:34
mjg59S3 is, in almost all cases, preferable to StD08:34
fabbionewhat about all the problems we have with "boot with acpi=off"?08:34
mjg59jdub: No08:34
mjg59jdub: Except in extremely pathological cases08:34
mdzmjg59: so what will the default action be, for sleep button, lid close, etc.?08:35
danielsmdz: s3 is nice but really, really hard to get right08:35
danielsmdz: needs lots of testing and brute-forcing as to which modules need to get removed08:35
Keybuks4 is too heavy-weight for lid close, I'd say08:35
mjg59mdz: S3 has an outside chance of being useful early enough for Hoary08:35
danielsmdz: i'm making acpi-support-x40 more generic, so we can just slot in different module lists08:35
mdzmjg59: what's the change that we'll make in the next week or so in order to start testing it?08:36
sabdfl"outside chance" is not something we should aim for08:36
mdzmjg59: swsusp?08:36
mjg59mdz: swsusp is in 2.6.9 and works well, but needs patching to work with an initrd rather than a monolithic kernel08:36
sivangI couldn't not spot the "excellent documentation" feature. is this going to be discussed here?08:36
sabdflthat sounds doable08:36
sivangbeing a hoary feature goal.08:36
amumdz: you need double sawp as ram08:36
mdzamu: ??08:36
sabdflsivang: let mdz set the pace08:36
mjg59amu: No08:36
jdubsivang: (we're not there yet)08:36
sivangok, sorry.08:37
amumdz: sw susp08:37
mdzsivang: we've skipped ahead to accomodate mjg59 having the plague08:37
mjg59There are three main issues with S308:37
amumjg59: no? 08:37
mjg591) hardware where it just doesn't work08:37
=== silbs [~sbsm0084@host217-37-231-28.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
mdzok, it sounds like swsusp is what we should start testing for hoary08:37
sivangmdz : ok, we can always dicuss this on CC meeting08:37
mjg59The VIA craptop is an example of this. I'm working on it, mildly in touch with someone in Intel08:37
mdzand if good things happen with s3, maybe we can enable it on a case-by-case basis for some laptops08:37
mjg592) hardware where it works but video doesn't come back08:38
amumjg59: ok 08:38
thommdz: this kinda ties into the hardware db08:38
mdz" More flexible implementation of TRLS features (hal/dbus, etc.)?"08:38
bob2is swsusp the One True suspend-to-disk thing now?08:38
mjg59(2) is not easily solvable in the VESA case08:38
mdzwhat is that about?08:38
bob2ie will it support !i386 soon/now?08:38
mjg593) individual drivers that don't work08:38
mjg59(3) is easily fixed on a case by case basis08:38
mdzmjg59: TRLS?08:38
Kamionbob2: as I understand it powermac support is RSN08:38
thommdz: it almost certainly is !hoary - moving power management infrastructure to use hal08:38
mjg59More hardware for testing would be good. If I can sort the craptop, I'll produce kernel images.08:38
jdubtrls == Totally Rad Laptop Support08:39
thomand then doing all the TRLS stuff over dbus08:39
mjg59I think that's post-hoary08:39
mdzwe really ought to fix that08:39
mjg59We need more hal support for platform devices first08:39
mdzas rad as it is, it's fairly hacktastic on the inside at the moment :-)08:39
thommdz: yes.08:39
mdzwhat about the configuration side of it?08:39
mdzi.e., currently the user needs to hand-edit scripts in /etc to change the timeouts and such08:40
mjg59I'm inclined to go for suspend to disk on power or sleep button, and just try to blank the screen on lid close08:40
mdzespecially that evil-cryptic hard drive timeout value08:40
thommdz: well, that's the flipside - with a dbus/hal implementation, you could have a NetworkManager like implementation - user config frontend that talks to a backend daemon08:40
mdzmjg59: blank the screen and leave everything powered up?  that seems to cause lots of user surprises08:40
amumjg59: there are some reports about swsusp.? i guess many brocken drivers, like cetrino wireless ;)  08:40
mjg59mdz: Suspend to disk on lid close is hard08:41
mdzamu: they'll be fixed08:41
amucentrino even 08:41
mdzmjg59: why harder than power button?08:41
thomso no need to mod stuff under /etc08:41
Keybukmdz: stand up, shut lid, move to other table, open lid08:41
mjg59mdz: It's difficult to get most hardware to autoresume from swsusp on lid open at present08:41
Keybukthe time the lid is shut is often less than the time to actually suspend08:41
mdzmjg59: ah08:41
Keybuk(not to mention the technical reasons)08:42
mjg59And we're still talking 20 seconds or so for resume08:42
amumdz: something good for the liveCD    08:42
mdz" Automatic /cpufreq module loading (possibly for desktop systems, too)"08:42
mjg59Sladen was working on that08:42
mdzI think the path forward for that is hotplug cpu support, is it not?08:42
mjg59It's straightforward - just need to map CPU to module, and then fall back to acpi08:42
sabdflcan we not do a delayed swsusp?08:42
sabdflso if the lid stays closed for mor ethan 3 minutes, std?08:42
mjg59sabdfl: Yes - a timer on closed lid is practical08:42
mdzmjg59: what was he working on?  loading the right module based on /proc/cpuinfo?08:43
mjg59mdz: Yes08:43
thommdz: yes08:43
mdzok, sounds eminently doable for hoary08:43
thomcan we bounty hotplug cpu support, and stay with sladen's script short term?08:43
mdz" APM support selectable on install for laptops with missing/broken APCI support (BenjaminLong?)"08:43
mjg59Firstly, anything that doesn't support ACPI should have APM loaded08:43
Keybuk*shrug* that should be automatic08:44
mjg59At the moment, loads of people are having to add APM to /etc/modules by hand08:44
mdzsounds like early breakage to me08:44
mjg59There's no real downside to always trying to load APM08:44
ogramjg59: i have a lap that has acpi but isnt supported08:44
mdzso we should start loading apm automatically whenever acpi is not active?08:44
Keybukcan't we load acpi, and then apm -- iirc apm will not load if acpi was loaded and worked08:44
mdzKeybuk: I think so08:44
mjg59mdz: If you try to load APM when acpi /is/ active, it'll just disable itself08:44
mdzwhat's the proper userland place to trigger apm loading?08:44
mdzoh, we have apmd in desktop08:44
mdzso apmd should start loading apm, it sounds like08:45
mjg59The apm init script could check for a /proc/acpi, and load apm if it's not there08:45
mjg59That's probably the easiest solution08:45
mdzwho will make the changes?08:45
mjg59Passing acpi=off then results in the right thing happening08:45
mdzto the apm package?08:45
Keybukmjg59: why do you need the acpi=off ?08:45
thomi'll take08:45
mdzthom: yours08:45
mjg59Keybuk: If you have working APM suspend but no working ACPI suspend, for instance08:45
mdzmjg59: that's it for the laptop stuff08:45
mjg59mdz: Yup08:46
Keybukok, I assume you don't need that for an APM-only laptop08:46
thommdz: NetworkManager08:46
mjg59Oh, one thing - I have a limited range of hardware for this. Another test machine would be handy08:46
mdzthom: that's under a separate heading08:46
thomdo we want to talk about this in relation to laptops, or seperately? (mjg59 has been looking at it, as have I)08:46
jdubseparate, there's a big chunk of bullet points about it08:47
mdzonly if there's a specific feature goal in it other than "package networkmanager and add it to desktop"08:47
mjg59Yeah, it's more useful on laptops than elsewhere but I think it's part of the big network autoconfiguration love thing08:47
mjg59mdz: Thanks08:47
mdzI'm already thinking that we may need to adjourn and finish tomorrow08:47
mdzwe have another couple of hours, easily08:47
mdzbut let's blaze through as much as we can08:47
mdzlanguage support08:48
jduboh man, another 2am meeting tomorrow would kill me :)08:48
danielsmdz: one hit is good for me and the others at 2am08:48
jdub(it's 5am)08:48
Keybukjdub: interfering with breakfast? :p08:48
fabbionemdz: i won't be able to be here tomorrow at this time08:48
jdubKeybuk: (i got up at 4am yesterday)08:48
mdzthe big part of this bit is the backend infrastructure to pull things out of packages during the build cycle08:48
mdzwhich is a generic facility we may use for several things08:48
dokoduring build, not install?08:49
mdzthis is high priority, so someone will be assigned to implement it08:49
mdzdoko: right, during build08:49
mdzfor example08:49
lamontmdz: 2400UTC?08:49
jdubpart of it is just pulling stuff out08:50
mdzthe basic idea is to create language packs08:50
mdzby extracting locale-specific data from packages08:50
jdubthe tricky bit is pulling stuff out entirely, and making new packages based on it08:50
pittieven more trickier is that the stuff must not be put into the original packages any more, right?08:50
mdzso probably a debhelper component to do the acquisition of the data, a repository of some sort to hold it, and a system to make packages out of it08:50
ograthe printing system tied to the locale would be nice08:50
Keybukyou'd have to do it somewhere between binary and signing the changes08:50
dokodetect thing in /usr/share/locale and build new packages from that, add to the control file the new packages and add conflicts to the old package?08:51
mdzKeybuk: you'd do it before even creating the .deb08:51
jdubmdz: debhelper means lots of patches08:51
mdzjdub: why?08:51
Kamionjdub: good08:51
jdubhrm, unless it was built in to an existing debhelper module08:51
mdzjdub: it would be a separate module08:51
KamionI don't think that something this invasive should be silent as far as the source package is concerned08:51
fabbionedh_builddeb could call it08:51
jdubmdz: so surely that means lots of patches against modules08:51
mdzit wouldn't even necessarily have to be debhelper-compatible, but it would be used in the same way08:51
lamontmdz: and many things don't build-dep debhelper...08:51
Kamionotherwise users will have a hell of a time building packages08:52
=== Keybuk makes a note to be on holiday at hoary->grumpy merge :p
mdzjdub: why does a separate module imply patches to existing modules?08:52
lamontKeybuk: trivial to automate, no? :-)08:52
Keybukmdz: to change debian/rules ?08:52
jdubmdz: patches to packages08:52
mdzlamont: packages which use this facility should probably do so explicitly and build-dep08:52
mdztrying to intrusively hook into the process this way sounds rather insane08:52
jdubmdz: debian/{rules,control}08:52
mdzjdub: yes, right08:52
lamontmdz: so you don't mean _all_ packages, just those with locale compoinets?08:52
mdzjdub: I was talking debhelper modules08:52
mdzI think this needs a real design discussion08:53
mdzbut it also needs someone to take the lead08:53
jdublamont: it gets pretty close to all, given gnome (locales separation and .desktop extraction)08:53
pittisounds interesting08:53
Kamionjdub: there are lots of unlocalised and don't-need-to-be-localised packages below the desktop08:53
Kamionlibraries instantly spring to mind08:54
mdz.desktop extraction is significantly easier08:54
mdzbeacuse it's a tiny amount of data08:54
=== Keybuk tries to think of an unlocalised library
mdzwe don't need to exclude it from the .deb at all08:54
Kamionwouldn't this be easier with arch-for-everything?08:54
seb128Kamion: most of gnome libs are localised08:54
mdzKamion: not for locale data; it's generated at build time, no?08:54
dokoare desktop extractions worth to put in an extra package?08:54
jdubKamion: lots of this has to be done after build08:55
Kamionmdz: you could generate it from the .po files in the same way, I'd've thought08:55
mdzok, I don't want to have the design discussion now08:55
Keybukdoko: not for an extra package, for a smart "Add/Remove Programs" app08:55
pittimdz: well, if the stuff is extracted into an extra package, it shouldn't be in the original deb any more08:55
Keybukmdz: it's a must-have from sabdfl isn't it?  so should be punted to design later08:55
jdubpitti: (.desktop stuff is a bit different, it'll go elsewhere)08:55
mdzthe spec as it stands is that we want to have language packs which include the localisation data across the distribution, and exclude that data from the packages08:55
mdzthe question in the table is who will implement it08:55
Kamionhas anyone checked if all of these language packs will actually fit on the CD?08:56
Kamionthey're going to be absolutely enormous08:56
sabdflKamion: won't ship all of them08:56
Kamionsabdfl: even one of them will be enormous :)08:56
mdzthat, and they won't have any new data to start08:56
mdzwe'll just be moving things from one package to another08:56
pittimdz: I'd like to look at this08:56
mdzpitti: ok, yours08:56
sabdflKamion: don't we currently ship *all* translations?08:56
lamontthis is all of french (say) for all desktop apps in one package?08:56
jdubmdz: (though it will include all of Supported translations too)08:56
Kamionsabdfl: no, see openoffice.org-l10n-*08:56
Kamionabout 3MB per language08:56
sabdflKamion: right 08:56
mdzjdub: I think we can separate supported from desktop08:57
mdzanyway, trying not to get into it08:57
dokosabfl: only for packages which don't have localization packages as extras08:57
mdz" excellent GDMLanguageIntegration? (selection of login language, selection of system languages)"08:57
sabdflwe'll only do this for the desktop package08:57
mdzwe already can select the login language, no?08:57
mdzjdub: can you expand?08:57
jdubbut not guiable08:57
Kamionif generated, yeah08:57
Keybukall three of those sound like bounties08:58
mdzneeds a spec, though08:58
mdzmoving on08:58
jdubthere's no way of configuring the GDM language08:58
Sensebendwhat is the target size of the next release?08:58
KeybukSensebend: single CD08:58
mdzSensebend: one CD08:58
Sensebendso 650MB or 700MB?08:58
Kamion650, I think08:59
jdubbut there is a list of languages - if configured - to choose from for your session08:59
jdubwe need a gui way of choosing available languages08:59
mdznext up, documentation08:59
mdzany documentation team folks here?08:59
mdzhornbeck: hi08:59
Sensebendagreed jdub08:59
jduband add gdm language choice to gdmsetup08:59
jdub(this should probably be shifted to desktop)09:00
sivang_awayme also09:00
mdzpython port of yelp -> bounty09:00
ograjdub: and disable it if there is only one lang ?09:00
jdubmdz: python port of yelp can be dumped for hoary09:00
mdzeven better09:00
sivangjdub : have you talked with shaunm ?09:00
mdz" Network Administrator's Kick Arse Rollout Guide (Re: kickstart)"09:00
jdubmdz: bounty09:01
mdz" Devhelp for Python development documentation love"09:01
jdubmdz: bounty, have candidate09:01
mdz" Ubuntu in a nutshell style booklet (JeffWaugh?)"09:01
jdubmdz: bounty09:01
dokojdub: what should be done?09:01
mdzwe should have more documentation goals09:02
mdzbut we can discuss them later09:02
dokofor the devhelp thing?09:02
sivangmdz : any connection to redhet's kickstart?09:02
mdzthe doc team can bring that together09:02
mdzsivang: yes, scroll back about an hour09:02
SensebendUbutu in a netshell sounds good09:02
jdubdoko: just making python docs appear in devhelp09:02
mdzmoving on09:02
mdzyou are on it already09:02
Sensebendyes! to Xorg!09:02
KeybukGo Team Denmark! etc.09:02
fabbionewe are progressing slower than expected09:02
mdzhigh priority, get it in as soon as possible, fix what breaks09:02
danielsfabio and I are both on it09:02
dokojdub: let's talk about it later please09:03
fabbionemdz: read above09:03
mdzfabbione: what's a reasonable target date?09:03
fabbionemdz: we are facing more problems than i expected09:03
fabbionemdz: possibly end of novemeber09:03
sabdflthat's late09:03
mdzyes it is09:03
fabbionemdz: i am working 15 hours/day on it but i can't sustain this rithm forever09:03
mdzfabbione: it doesn't need to be perfect09:03
mdzbut it needs to be in09:03
fabbionemdz: it doens't even compile09:04
fabbionei have bigger issues than having it perfect09:04
sabdflfabbione: can we provide help in any way?09:04
mdzwhat about the work that daniels did back in August?09:04
mdzare you working from that, or from scratch?09:04
fabbionemdz: we are using all the things we have09:04
fabbionesabdfl: i will soon need (root) access to amd64 and ppc to test portability09:04
mdzfabbione: you will have it09:05
sabdflfabbione: we have porting boxes available09:05
fabbionesabdfl, mdz: perfect09:05
fabbionethere are bits that goes in very fast09:05
fabbioneothers are a real pain09:05
mdzfabbione: can we do it in stages?09:05
fabbionethere is not much i can do about it09:05
fabbionemdz: ?09:05
mdze.g., first transition the X server, and then the libs?09:05
fabbionewhat you mean by stages?09:05
elmofabbione: err, why root?09:05
fabbionemdz: no09:05
fabbioneelmo: i need to be able to install packages i build on the fly09:06
danielselmo: install stuff09:06
danielselmo: no longer a single monolithic package, remember09:06
fabbioneelmo: otherwise i need you and/or thom available when i am working on it09:06
jdubcurrent xorg isn't split out, is it?09:06
danielsmdz: stepping it in will be more work than just crashing the lot in09:06
danielsjdub: upstream, no.  packaging, yes.09:06
jdubdaniels: why?09:07
mdzsplitting it out is less important than getting it in early09:07
danielsjdub: (why ... ?)09:07
mdzit is perfectly OK to have a monolithic package09:07
fabbionemdz: it's like the python scripts.. either we get from the beginning or we don't09:07
mdzthat does not make sense to me09:07
fabbionemdz: and we will still face the same problems later09:07
mdzit is entirely a bulid-time problem09:07
dokosplitting up a package is much work09:07
jdubfabbione: but it can be tested in the mean time09:07
mdzmoving binary packages between source packages is easy09:07
jdubfabbione: or it can be split for grumpy09:08
mdzonce upstream is properly split, we can split along the same lines09:08
fabbionemdz: we need to upgrade from Xfree and it doesn't make it easier09:08
fabbionethere are hell of dependencies already09:08
mdzfabbione: source package layout does not affect upgrades09:08
jdubthere are two big issues here09:08
jdub- managing the upgrade from xfree09:08
jdub- testing the software itself09:08
=== MrTom [~thomas@] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
fabbionemdz: till a certain point.09:09
jdubsplitting the package (for the packaging's sake) doesn't assist either of those09:09
mdztrying to split the source packages early is introducing a lot of unnecessarily complexity09:09
fabbionemdz: we will only postpone the problem09:10
mdzwe can afford to postpone that problem09:10
mdzwe cannot afford to postone testing X.org in Hoary09:10
jdubfabbione: postponing until upstream does the split sounds great :)09:10
fabbioneit's your call09:10
jdubxorg should be one of the first things to hit hoary09:10
mdzok, let's delay the split09:11
fabbionejdub: it's not like i haven't been working for it09:11
mdzget something which builds the right binary packages so we can get it in and test09:11
KamionOK, I have to go to beat people up^W^W^Wpractice peaceful martial arts now09:11
mdzfabbione: I understand, and I really appreciate your work09:11
Kamionback in two hours or less, if you're still going09:11
fabbioneonly portion of the patch forwarding costed me 30 hours of work if not more09:12
danielsupstream split is april/may09:12
mdzfabbione: we just need to make sure that we focus on the right priorities to make the release09:12
danielswhich will defer our split to grumpy09:12
jdubfabbione: i grok - the split is a lot of work, and important for different reasons; thank you09:12
mdzsplit for grumpy sounds fine09:12
mdzwe have lived with monolithic X for many years09:12
mdzanother 6 months will not kill us09:12
mdzso let's establish a target for getting X.org uploaded09:13
fabbionewell ok.. 09:13
fabbionemonolitich tree will be09:13
fabbionei am not happy about this decision09:13
fabbionebecause it will make X drops still complex and slow09:14
fabbionebut i have to accept the fact that we have deadlines09:14
fabbionedates will be asap09:14
mdzfabbione: what are the dates of the X sprint?09:14
fabbionedaniels is coming here the 1st of nov until the 14th09:15
mdzlet's target array CD 309:15
mdzNovember 1509:15
fabbioneso we should be able to upload something usable for that time09:15
mdz" Enhanced GDM"09:15
jdubmdz: bounty, have candidate09:16
mdz" Process bugs and feedback from the WartyWarthog? release"09:16
mdznot a feature goal :-)09:16
mdz" GNOME 2.10"09:16
mdzseb128: all you09:16
seb128yeah, no problem09:16
mdz Easy package install GUI (JeffWaugh?, talking to RossBurton?)09:16
jdubmdz: bounty, have candidate, almost finished already :)09:16
mdz Security update notification GUI (MichaelVogt?)09:17
mdzmvo_: ?09:17
jdubmdz: depends on splitting .desktop files09:17
mvo_no problem09:17
jdub(easy package)09:17
mdzjdub: right09:17
mdznot worried about the .desktop files09:17
fabbionesabdfl, mdz, jdub: if there is nothing more for me i would like to go and get some dinner09:17
mvo_with update manager application 09:17
mdz" Fax support via efax or the new gfax?"09:17
sabdflfabbione: thanks very much!09:18
jdubnot really worth a 'goal'09:18
mdzfabbione: by all means, thank you09:18
jdubbut george farris is getting gfax ready for inclusion in hoary09:18
fabbionesabdfl: no! thanks to you!09:18
jdubintegrates with print system, etc.09:18
fabbionecya tomorrow09:18
mdz" Bluetooth GUI, with EddDumbill?'s packages"09:18
dokojdub: does it support ISDN devices?09:18
jdubends up just being a package inclusion09:18
=== sabdfl thought fabbione was offering to get me some dinner
fabbionesabdfl: also!09:18
jdubmdz: edd wants to do those, ends up being a seed change09:18
fabbionesabdfl: welcome to join09:18
fabbionesabdfl: but the new kitchen will be ready in 2 weeks now :-)09:19
mdz Replace fam with gamin09:19
jdubmdz: seed change09:19
fabbionesabdfl: i am on microwave and sandwich09:19
sabdflbluetooth will be important for the trls09:19
mdzjdub: does gamin exist?09:19
jdubmdz: already in universe09:19
mdzjdub: that's something we should get in as early as possible09:19
dokoso all the crowd is invited to cook pasta at your home? ;)09:19
jdubi have updated packages beyond warty ready to upload when i can09:19
sabdfljdub: are edd's packages in a state to go in early and get user feedbackl?09:19
jdubsabdfl: they're in my repo09:19
mdz" Replace esd with polypaudio"09:19
mdzanother early breakage item09:20
jdubmdz: seed change09:20
mdzjdub: oh?09:20
jdubalready in universe09:20
jdubi would like you to review polypaudio09:20
sabdfljdub: what's polyaudio's state in the gnome universe?09:20
=== MrTom is now known as MrTom-away
mdzhmm, I thought we were going for dmix09:20
mdzrather than a replacement sound daemon09:20
jdubsabdfl: installable, replaces esound09:20
jdubmdz: this gives us a sane option09:20
sabdflg2.10 standard?09:20
jdubsabdfl: oh, sorry09:20
mdzjdub: esd-compatible or no?09:20
jdubi'm hoping that it will replace esound in gnome land09:20
jdubmdz: protocol compatible09:21
jdubmdz: apps will still use libesd09:21
mdzjdub: apps linked with libesd?09:21
mdzI thought the plan was to get rid of the sound daemon concept entirely09:21
mdzand let alsa handle it09:21
Keybukmdz: then what multiplexes the sound card?09:21
Keybukalsa specifically won't handle it, and are going the other way and saying you need a multiplexer09:21
jdubmdz: dmix may be rough to configure automagically, has no config tools, and mean syou have to use libalsa for everything09:21
bob2Keybuk: dmix handles it09:22
bob2Keybuk: for libasound apps, at least09:22
Keybukdmix is a multiplexer daemon though?09:22
mdzlibalsa for everything is doable for desktop09:22
jdubKeybuk: no, part of liba*09:22
mdzmost of it is there already09:22
jdubmdz: that's lots of bugfixing, dude09:22
jdubwith uuuuugly alsa09:22
sabdflalso, alsa api got carrots09:22
mdzjdub: why is polypaudioi better than esd?09:22
Keybuksabdfl: and in en?09:22
jdubmdz: much, much saner structure, easier to configure, better for sync sound, latency, etc.09:23
sabdfl"the alsa api received less-than-glowing reivews from warty team members who looked at it"09:23
mdzsabdfl: true09:23
sabdfljdub: as in click, wait, ping!09:23
jdubmdz: probably a longer discussion involve dhere09:24
jdubmdz: but i'd like to start by replacing esound09:24
mdzif gnome 2.10 is going with polypaudio , we'll start there09:24
sabdflif it's in universe let's get it in asap09:24
mdzand then look into other stuff09:24
sabdfli think we should communicate very strongly that hoary will spend large amounts of time BROKEN09:24
mdzpolyp is on the early breakage list09:24
sabdflthen not fear breaking it09:24
mdzwe're going to break everything at once :-)09:24
mdz dns-sd via howl (JeffWaugh?)09:24
mdzjdub: ?09:24
jdubmdz: gnome-vfs depends change09:24
bob2there's a huge number of basically newbies who want to move to hoary09:24
jdubmdz: brings howl into main09:25
Keybukisn't that going to open a port?09:25
bob2you need to get that message out very very loud09:25
Keybukdeb http://break-my-computer-and-stamp-on-the-pieces.ubuntu.com/... :p09:25
jdubmdz: requires security analysis from you for mDNSResponder, and hopefully some configuration thingy to let mDNSResponder default to no-listen and switch to listen09:25
mdzthis is going to be breakage of a scale never before seen :-)09:25
mdzdebian has never broken this much at once09:25
Keybuklibc5 -> libc6 migration? :p09:25
mdzjdub: the listening switch sounds like a bounty sort of thing09:25
jdubmdz: (we could just not install mDNSResponder by default to start with)09:26
mdzKeybuk: that's one thing09:26
jdubmdz: agree09:26
mdzjust happened to affect lots of pakcages :-)09:26
jdubmdz: in which case, have candidate09:26
sivangmdz : true, but sid's small , harder to notice breakages also stung :)09:26
Keybukmdz: in sufficiently incompatible ways that it wasn't *bootable* for long periods :p09:26
sabdfljdub, mdz, how are we going to resolve the fundamental difference between "rendevous (howl) is awesome" and "don't listen by default"?09:26
mdzjdub: I'll mark it for further discussion, we'll break it down09:26
mdzsabdfl: require the user to check a box to turn it on09:26
Keybuksabdfl: put them in a ring and let them fight it out?09:27
jdubsabdfl: by taking your clothes, tying you to a chair, and... oh, or providing a configuration item to turn it on09:27
=== sabdfl thinks this sounds just like boarding school
Keybukjdub: can we have a cups configuration next to that?09:27
jdubKeybuk: i think this ends up being part of our 'services configuration' thingy09:27
jdubKeybuk: bounty ;)09:27
mdzthe CUPS configuration thing sounds simpler; it should just open up its port when you're looking to add a printer09:27
jdubKeybuk: plus discussion ;)09:27
mdzno point in sitting around listening all the time09:27
mdz improved panel:09:28
mdzjdub: ?09:28
jdubmdz: bounty, have candidate09:28
sabdflhow does cups know when someone else on the network wants to install a printer?09:28
mdz accessible by default + include a11y packages? (JeffWaugh?)09:28
mdzsabdfl: we're talking about the client end of it09:28
mdzthe print server will have a port open all the time09:28
Keybukmdz: I was talking about the server end09:28
jdubmdz: dump as official goal, leave to community and 'research and development' derivative09:28
mdzbut the thing we disabled was that the client currently needs a port open all the time in order ot browse09:28
mdz Some kind of reasonable video playback support (Fluendo's DVD Player?)09:28
sabdflso "share printer" makes you a print server, and slightly vulnerable, but it's your option09:29
jdubmdz: requires further discussion09:29
mdz User management (e.g., select whether new users should have local device access or not)09:29
mdzpitti: ?09:29
pittimdz: yes :-)09:29
mdzthis is a patch to g-s-t, right?09:29
dokothat's a pam thing?09:29
pittimdz: in gnome system tools?09:29
mdzpitti: yes09:30
mdza small one, I think09:30
mdzpitti: will you do it?09:30
pittimdz: yes09:30
mdz Remote desktop and rocking terminal support with  NX? (TollefFogHeen?)09:30
jdub(we could bounty the author on that one, too)09:30
mdzMithrandir is not here09:30
mdzanyone know what that's about?09:30
jdubintegrating nomachine nx09:30
jdubdefinitely an attractive goal09:30
ograin vino09:30
jdubno, just generally09:30
jdubnot related to vino09:31
mdzwhich is some sort of vnc-ish thing?09:31
sabdfllow-bandwidth x09:31
bob2super-low-bandwidth X09:31
ogramdz: way faster09:31
KeybukNX is "make my X go really really fast"09:31
Keybuk(over a network)09:31
sabdflcombined with ltsp, will rock09:31
jdubusually used for terminals, rather than sharing current session09:31
danielsparts of it are free, parts are non-free09:31
mdzX extension?09:31
danielsfreenx is a 500-line shell script to tie shit together09:31
mdzor separate protocol?09:31
jdubspecial server09:31
danielsruns a proxying, caching server09:31
amumdz: ... woorks with a goof compression, working with a modem line is very very fast compared to vnc 09:31
mdzwhat's involved in the feature for hoary?09:32
danielsseparate protocol/server, also interoperates with os x and windows if you buy their product09:32
mdzpackaging the thing?09:32
danielspackaging, yes09:32
sabdfldaniels: what parts are non-free, and can it be usefully used as entirely free config?09:32
jdubpackaging + seed09:32
mdzwho will do the work?09:33
jdubperhaps leave it for tollef to answer09:33
dokocan do it09:33
jdubhe has already done bits09:33
danielssabdfl: i believe you can get an entire freenx setup with free licences09:33
mdzok, will check with tollef09:33
mdz Attempt to standardise on process elevation method throughout GNOME09:33
tsengknoppix already includes bits of freen09:33
sabdfland the non-free stuff is what? optimised?09:33
jdubmdz: not convinced it's a useful goal for hoary09:33
mdz Thought: Replace Gnome's default palm only sync with  MultiSync? for syncing with many more devices? (BenjaminLong?)09:34
jdubmdz: can do as bounty for grumpy, can think of potential candidate09:34
Keybukwhoever wrote that is on crack, multisync doesn't work with evo 2.0, only 1.409:34
sabdflsounds like a gnome job, not a hoary job09:34
danielssabdfl: i think most of their integration is non-free but there are hacks around that09:34
jdubmultisync isn't ready for integration09:34
sabdfljdub: is it the platform to build on top of though?09:34
mdzwe had proposed a bounty of getting it into shape09:34
jdubespecially if intended as a replacement for current palm foo09:34
jdubsabdfl: potentially - needs a lot of work09:35
KeybukI looked through multisync briefly and I wasn't impressed09:35
sabdflis it actively maintained?09:35
mdzseveral apparently major bugs on the current palm-fu09:35
jdubthe general idea is right, but lots of mess gui and implimentation wise09:35
lamontKeybuk: I played with evo sync briefly, was so impressed I went back to jpilot09:35
mdzif there isn't something there to build on, we can't do this for hoary09:35
jdubsabdfl: not in a very strongly directed fashion ;)09:35
jdubmdz: i'd say punt09:35
jdubmdz: people can love it in universe09:35
sabdflok, pass09:35
mdz" Better sounds: for example new mail sound, preconfigured correctly"09:35
mdzsounds like random criticism of the audio theme :-)09:36
jdubwouldn't want to commit to supporting it09:36
sabdflpity, because PDA stuff is going to be very important09:36
sabdflerm, that was me09:36
tsengevo sync to palm is an "almost works, sortof"09:36
mdzsabdfl: something we should do professionally?09:36
dokohmm, turning off single sounds in sound themes would be nice09:36
sabdflwe need to review every desktop app for sound integration so it all works well together09:36
mdzsabdfl: I know people who could do very slick sounds for us09:36
sabdfllike, thunderbird's new mail sound was just a beep post-install09:37
sabdflmdz: great, ping me separately/09:37
elmoyay, someone do a slick sound that sabdfl can use on his damn jabber client ;-P09:37
sivangxchat's too09:37
Keybukand gaim could do with something a little cuter than the fingers-on-blackboard ring09:37
Keybukand gossip could do with something louder than its shy little peep09:37
mdzso this particular item is just about making sound events more integrated and consistent?09:37
Keybukelmo: AWOOGA!09:37
jdubDIVE! DIVE!09:37
thomelmo: "WOO WOO"09:37
sabdflcan we do "sounds froma nudist colony"?09:38
jdubsabdfl: 'slap!' 'squish!' etc?09:38
mdzwhat's the hoary piece of this?09:38
thomsabdfl: the "you can't show tits on the radio" theme09:38
mdzreview all desktop apps and make them use sound consistently?09:38
sabdflmdz: yes09:38
jdubmdz: bounty for sounds, fix badly chosen sound bugs in packages09:38
mdzsabdfl: just using a consistent set of sounds, or adding sound stuff where it isn't currently present?09:39
sabdfl(a) creating a good sound theme09:39
mdze.g., stuff which just beeps09:39
sabdfl(b) making sure all apps which use sound are correctly integrated to the theme09:39
sabdflso gossip and gaim could use the same sounds09:39
sabdflthunderbird and evo09:39
sabdflfor new mail, new im, etc09:39
mdzbut if an app only supports the console bell, or no sounds at all, we leave it alone?09:40
sabdflbasically, file bugs on packages where there are sound theme inconsistencies or unusabilities09:40
sabdflno bash sound theme needed09:40
mdz(a) I have bounty leads09:40
Keybuksabdfl: Gentoo ... it's only a matter of time09:40
sabdflcontract for the overall theme, bugs for apps that don't integrate09:40
doko"command not found" sound ...09:40
mdz(b) we need someone to do the review and file bugs09:40
mdzjdub: ?09:40
sabdfli think once the team knows this is important they will file bugs09:41
Keybukdoko: "D'oh!"09:41
jdubmdz: hrm?09:41
azeem(about multisync, I read the people behind it work on a sane replacement called opensync, which is supposed to by a fd.org standard)09:41
Keybukazeem: what isn't these days?09:41
danielshosted at fd.o, don't know how much movement there's been.09:41
jdubazeem: yeah, opensync is pretty far from ready09:41
danielshosted != standard09:41
mdzok, so we won't make this an official goal, and just file bugs09:41
sabdflsync punted -> grumpy09:41
mdz Improved network integration?09:42
mdzthom: you're packaging it?09:42
azeemdaniels: I asked about multisync for an unrelated matter, and found a post by one of the guys saying a first opensync preview release was imminent09:42
mdzassuming thom will take that one09:42
sabdflthom was showing it off here last week09:42
sabdfllooking pretty good09:42
sabdflneeds to be integrated with the broader picture of ifup ifdown09:42
jdublots of opportunities for NM integration in various programs09:42
jdublike evolution, etc.09:43
mdzthom: all of the sub-goals under that heading have been moved under networkmanager09:43
mdzthom: is that accurate?09:43
mdzwe don't need anything else?09:43
jdubsome patches have already been written by RH dudes09:43
mdzwhat about, e.g., not bringing the interface up at boot?09:43
thommdz: checking, but i think so09:43
mdzdoes networkmanager integrate with ifupdow?09:43
Keybukjdub: Colin's crusade against the "Network Error" dialog?09:43
sivangjdub : i.e ?09:43
jdubKeybuk: yeah (and clark's)09:43
thommdz: not as yet, intend for it to do so soon09:43
jdubso beyond packaging, there's integration work to do09:43
mdzthom: will you take that on as well?09:44
thomnot sure about zeroconf09:44
sivangmdz : and there's the trashing interfaces file when starting from skreatch no conffiles09:44
Keybukis a good hoary goal09:44
thommdz: yes09:44
tsengthere is fixing to do in networkmanager itself before its ripe to be a core component09:44
jdubTRLS! Yeah!09:44
mdzhmm, there's stuff under there that is clearly no tnetworkmanager stuff09:44
mdzso, zeroconf -> hoary09:44
mdzKamion: what about the wireless/installer bit?09:44
mdzoh, he went away09:44
mdz Don't ask for WEP / ESSID details during install if they are not really needed09:44
mdzprobably just file a bug about that09:44
sabdflplus, try the various essid's in of signal strength09:45
jdubyou're skipping the zeroconf bits?09:45
mdzdoes someone here care about IrDA? :-)09:45
jdubthat sebastien added?09:45
mdzjdub: I thought zeroconf was ->grumpy09:45
sabdflwhat's the diff between zeroconf and howl?09:46
mdzI thought howl was an implementation of zeroconf09:46
mdzbut surely there is lots of integration to do09:46
jdubsabdfl: howl provides implementations of the two sides of zeroconf09:46
thomsabdfl: howl is a zeroconf implementation09:46
mdzonce we have howl, there are lots of things to hook it into09:46
jdubthere is a NetworkManager/Howl integration possibility here, for local lan09:46
sabdflis howl out there, and stable?09:47
thomyou can get network details from zeroconf, which would need to tie into NM09:47
jdubplus there is the nss issue for .local09:47
jdubsabdfl: i package it09:47
=== lamont gets dragged out the door by his wife, back in ~2 hours or so
jdubsabdfl: it is a dependency of gnome-vfs already09:47
thomthat's another reason for new glibc, by the way09:47
jdubsabdfl: (not in warty)09:47
thomuseful nameservice reloading stuff09:47
mdzso what can we reasonable do with howl/zeroconf for hoary?09:47
jdubmdz: perhaps we should just talk about zeroconf issues between you, thom and i09:47
mdz-> further discussion09:47
tsenggnome-vfs support is as easy as a build09:48
jdubtseng: (already covered earlier)09:48
mdz Support users who don't want to use the restricted component09:48
mdzsounds like a couple of simple d-i changes09:48
Keybukbug for kamion09:48
mdzwill discuss with colin when he gets back09:48
=== mvo__ [~egon@suprimo-131.ping.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
mdzT-Bone is not here09:48
jdubmdz: there are some items under 'irda' that really shouldn't be there09:48
mdzjdub: good point09:49
mdzin fact nothing should be under irda09:49
thomhp are very kindly sending me an itanium workstation, so i can test d-i09:49
=== mvo__ is back after network problems
mdzbacking up09:49
mdz" More robust mechanism for consistently-named network interfaces"09:49
sabdflthom: ?09:49
mdzthat would be doing ifrename right09:49
jdubi think NM covers that to a certain extent09:49
jdubyeah, it unifies a lot of that stuff09:50
thom(not, "they're sending me it to test d-i", but "they're sending me one; thus i can test d-i as a side effect")09:50
mdz" Unified DNS configuration (resolvconf or similar)"09:50
sabdflthom: aha09:50
jdubNM may have an impact on that09:50
mdzsabdfl: they sent me one as well, some time ago, so no worries there09:50
=== bob2 is totally on the wrong team
thomthat should happen through NM ideally09:50
jdubbob2: you get free trips to sydney for fish'n'chips!09:51
mdzwe'll need to have a networkmanager meeting later09:51
mdz" Visual traffic indicators on panel network icons (so you can see when NIC or modem is busy)"09:51
thomnew glibc can notify apps of nameservice changes AIUI09:51
jdubyeah ;)09:51
Keybukand ugh09:51
bob2jdub: hah, indeed09:51
sabdfli put that in 09:51
jdubthom: and TZ! :)09:51
Keybuknetwork is always busy, evil, distracting flashy icons09:51
sabdfltwo things: first, the network stuff (wifi etc) should only be visible when it's meaningful09:51
mdzwas that a yeah, networkmanager will do the blinkenlights?09:51
jdubmdz: yes09:52
sabdfland second, it's good to have evil, distracting, flashing icons :-)_09:52
mdznot by default, please09:52
thomNM will do wifi strength, not sure about traffic but it probably is trivial, will look09:52
sabdflbut seriously, often want to know if the network is busy or not, it's a common user perceptual reinforcement09:52
Keybuksabdfl: but if you have a windows machine on the network, the light won't stop flashing09:52
jdubsabdfl: and common irritant ;)09:52
sivangisn't there already an applet for showing network traffic? I use one.09:52
Keybukbecause they don't shut up broadcasting shit09:52
jdubsivang: there is, but NM centralises the configuration, etc.09:53
sabdfljdub: i know which side i'm going to ask us to err on :-)09:53
mvo__siretart: netspeed?09:53
=== Keybuk wonders what that wailing sound is
jdubthom: i wouldn't be surprised if some of the gnome applets are fixed up to support NM09:53
jdubmvo__: ew, no ;)09:53
sabdflthom: can nm appear as a notifier, rather than an applet?09:54
mdzwhat about sabdfl's network-applets-only-when-meaningful?09:54
tsengnm is a notifier09:54
thomsabdfl: it is  a notification applet09:54
Keybukmdz: requires massive, total, unrelenting overhaul of gnome-panel and gnome-applets09:54
jdubmdz: NM does that09:54
sabdflwe need the same for battery09:54
mdzconflicting answers09:54
amushould we also add support for handicapped people? i got some request for the liveCD some time ago09:54
=== sivang is stunned to see mdz laughing :)
mdzjdub: what's the right implementation overall?09:54
thommdz: NM provides an API to find out whether you're connected to the network09:54
mdzshould the applets run always, and not display anything unless appropriate?09:55
tsengamu: we're followig the outline09:55
jdubmdz: can't answer that sanely09:55
mdzjdub: how do we implement what sabdfl proposed?09:55
jdubmdz: but NM has nicons that appear per-network-interface09:55
jdubmdz: NM09:55
Keybukmdz: doesn't work ... the applets hook to the panel via bonobo so if they run they display stuff ... if they don't display stuff they aren't run09:55
mdzjdub: battery09:55
mdzother stuff which is not network09:55
jdubmdz: well, there's battfink which did that to start with09:55
tsengthere is battfink and another notification for batter09:56
tsengiirc nat did one09:56
sabdflKeybuk: need to be able to run them, and have them display nothing if there's nothing to tell09:56
sabdflcan an applet be converted to a notifier easily?09:56
Keybuksabdfl: have chatted about this upstream with the gnome people09:56
Keybukour general feeling is to convert the entire panel to a notification area09:56
jdubmdz: but in this case, using existing battstat code to run a nicon would be a quick fix09:56
Keybukand make all applets nicons instead of silly bonobo controls09:56
Keybukthough jdub wailed a bit, iirc :p09:56
jdubKeybuk: no09:57
sabdflthe battstat icon is close to perfect for us at the moment09:57
sabdflexcept that it shows on computers without a battery :-)09:57
sabdflcan we move on?09:57
jdubKeybuk: everyone wails at the idea of replacing applets with nicons, because it's the wrong thing to do (however, it is a simple way of moving toward what we want)09:57
sabdfli don't want to replace ALL the applets, just network and battery in our case09:58
jdub(was referring to upstream discussion)09:58
sabdflmdz? next?09:58
ograyou shouldnt make gtik a nicon ;)09:58
=== mdz snuck off to nibble on some food
mdznext up is ia6409:59
mdzbut T-Bone isn't around09:59
=== MrTom-away is now known as MrTom
mdzhe's going to run that show, right?09:59
sabdflyes, we're not going to make it an internal problem10:00
sabdflbeyond buildd's and no doubt some lamont-lovin#10:00
mdzhuge framework needed here10:00
mdzbounty material10:00
mdzneeds a detailed spec and some candidates10:00
sabdflthis one i think is worth doing internally10:00
sivangQA ?10:01
sabdflwe'll be living with it for a long time10:01
mdztrue, lots of ongoing maintenance probably10:01
mdzQA indeed10:01
sabdfland it is not something we can just drop out if it doesn't show up10:01
mdzthis could keep someone busy for most of the hoary cycle10:01
mdz" APT package authentication (signed releases, apt 0.6)"10:02
mdznot a big deal if we do it early10:02
jdubwish we had some apt hackers on board10:02
mdzneeds answers to a few PKI type questions10:02
mdzhow we'll manage keys, etc.10:02
sabdflmdz: fire away, oo10:02
mdzI think sabdfl/elmo/I had it pretty much sorted the last time we talked10:02
mvo__mdz: would like to help here10:02
mdzI'll put apt 0.6 on the early breakagae list10:03
mdzand get it uploaded ASAP10:03
=== gro [~gro@u212-239-167-206.adsl.pi.be] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
mdzmvo__: we'll need auth support in synaptic10:03
mdzand also in aptitude10:03
mvo__yes, I can do this10:03
mdzmvo__: aptitude as well?10:04
mvo__mdz: I'll contact daniel first, but I can do a patch if needed I think10:04
mdz Splitting/removing files from binary packages we talked about already10:04
mdz bzip2'ed packages10:04
mdzKeybuk: ?10:04
Keybukalready on dpkg mainline10:04
Keybukbinary, anyway10:05
mdzKeybuk: early breakage10:05
sabdflis it in warty dpkg?10:05
Keybuksabdfl: no.10:05
dokois that decided? installation slowdown?10:05
sabdfldoko: not for all pacakges10:05
mdzdoko: we will have the feature10:05
Keybukbzip2 packages will need to Pre-Depend: dpkg (>= 1.10.24)10:05
mdzthat much is decided10:05
sabdfljust stuff like languagepacks10:05
mdzKeybuk: when can you upload bzip2-enabled dpkg?10:05
jdubor we could defer bzip packages to grumpy, but get dpkg in10:05
Keybukmdz: when can I upload?10:06
jdub(suppose it doesn't matter, really)10:06
mdzKeybuk: as soon as you're done with the merge?10:06
mdzdpkg seems to have 2 ubuntu revisions10:06
mdzafaik hoary is open for uploads now10:06
Keybukmdz: yeah, one of those was amd64; the other hasn't been merged upstream10:06
=== jdub tries
Keybukelmo: is my key in the ring again yet? :p10:07
mdzelmo is importing packages anyway; real uploads should not be far behind10:07
mdzanyway, that one is Keybuk's10:07
mdz" Some facility for installation of meaningful package groups? (tasks)"10:07
mdzKamion suggested that we resurrect tasksel or a similar feature10:08
mvo__I would like to take this10:08
jdubsome of that will be covered by app-install10:08
mdzyes, I think it makes sense to integrate the two into one10:08
Keybukyeah, isn't this covered by Ross' gui10:08
sabdflthe nice slick app installer would likely look something like the win-foss gui10:08
jdubmdz: only some of the use cases are covered by app-install, not all10:08
daniels0609, good night.10:08
sabdflsimple, click here to get this app10:09
Keybukdaniels: nite, dude10:09
mdzdaniels: night10:09
sabdfltasksel is a different thing10:09
mdzthey wouldn't be presented together10:09
mdzbut backend-wise, there is a lot of overlap10:09
jdubsabdfl: app-install can also install sets of packages, such as "OpenOffice.org" -> implies a bunch of packages10:09
Keybuksabdfl: is it though?  are click here to get "word processor" and "development environment" actually different?10:09
=== sabdfl reconsiders
jdubsabdfl: possibly things like "Web Development Environment" -> bunch of things10:10
mdzKeybuk: "development environment" has never been a useful task :-P10:10
sabdfli'd like to keep that gui tool very basic and simple10:10
jdubit is :)10:10
jdubi'll send you sshots10:10
Keybukoh, it should be very basic and simple10:10
Keybukfor complex task selection, synaptic should do that10:10
sabdflsorry, aimed at "basic and simple users" and i'm not sure web development environment counts10:10
mdzhonestly, I think that the app-installer and the security update notifier and the simple upgrader should be one app10:10
jdubsabdfl: "File Server"10:11
mdzthat doesn't mean a complex ui; it could be a few separate UIs10:11
jdubmdz: agree10:11
sabdfljdub: nfs, samba, ftp???10:11
thomagree with mdz; much simpler for users10:11
jdubsabdfl: there are lots of simple aggregate examples like these10:11
jdubsabdfl: but the only cover some of the use cases10:11
sabdflhmm... security update notification will put a blinkenlight in the panel10:12
sabdflthat's all10:12
mdzand when you click on it...10:12
Keybuksabdfl: something needs to happen when you click it :)10:12
mvo__it opens the update maanager10:12
sabdflsimple app installer is like our win-foss goodie, very simple, focused on end-user apps that are high quality but not general enough to be in the desktop install10:12
sabdfllike dia10:12
Keybukthis should all be effortless and obvious10:12
sabdfland sodipodi (though i think inkscape might make it for hoary)10:13
=== MrTom is now known as MrTom-away
ograwhats wrong with inkscape ?10:13
sabdflwhat's simple upgrader?10:13
jdubsabdfl: app-install does that delightfully, per spec we talked about at oxford10:14
mdzsabdfl: one-click system upgrade10:14
sabdflshouldn't that be a simple view on synaptic?10:14
sabdfljdub why not/10:14
mvo__sabdfl: could be, but it's desinged as a python app with synaptic as backend for now10:14
mdzmvo__: until synaptic is rewritten in python :-)10:15
Keybuksabdfl: it effectively is as I understand it10:15
jdubsabdfl: because it's so much simpler10:15
jdubsabdfl: it runs synaptic to do the work10:15
mvo__so it only lists updates and gives you "proceed"10:15
jdubthe frontend is pygtk10:15
sabdflwhere is this beast?10:15
mvo__mdz: we'll do this later :)10:15
azeemwhy not make synaptic simpler?10:15
jdubsabdfl: sent by mail10:15
mdzazeem: because package management is complex; synaptic offers a lot of power10:15
mdzwe should not remove that power, but provide a simpler interface for simpler things10:16
mdz lm-sensors in main for hardware monitoring10:16
mdz-> seed change10:16
=== MrTom-away is now known as MrTom
azeemdid you look at the red-carpet stuff from the ximian usability wizards?10:16
mdzhmm, and also fixing up the package10:16
azeemmight be simpler10:16
elmoI thought we excluded lm-sensors 'cos the packaging was crackful?10:16
mdzto get rid of the 2.4 modules crap10:16
jdubazeem: it's about as complex as synaptic10:16
mdzI did a bunch of that for warty already10:17
mdzthe source is in main10:17
mdzand yet it still build-depends on kernel-source-2.4.2710:17
mdzoh, wrong version10:18
mdzBuild-Depends: bison, flex, librrd0-dev, debhelper (>= 4.1.16)10:18
mdzelmo: yeah, I fixed lm-sensors in ubuntu already10:18
mdzBinary: sensord, libsensors3, lm-sensors, libsensors-dev10:18
mdzso it's just a seed change10:18
mdz" resolvconf in main for managing resolv.conf with multiple networks"10:18
mdzcovered under network magic10:18
mdz(cue ominous music)10:18
sabdflanother biggie10:19
mdzfun though10:19
thomcue thom running away and hiding10:19
=== Keybuk is going to drop out now ... been a 14 hour day
mdzsabdfl: bounty or no?10:19
sabdfl-cheers Keybuk10:19
mdzKeybuk: night10:19
sabdflmdz: need to figure out who will use it10:19
sabdfl - fabbione10:19
seb128later Keybuk 10:19
sabdfl  - mjg5910:19
mdz- herbert10:20
sabdfl  - sound config10:20
thomit should be interesting and doable - i've had some thoughts on the matter which i need to write up10:20
sabdflkernel cant really adapt itself10:20
mdzthat stuff will be very useful for the kernel10:20
thomsabdfl: which modules get loaded, acpi v apm, etc10:20
mdzwhich devices are present but unrecognized by hotplug10:20
pittithom: do you think hal could be extended for such things? Or do you write another db?10:21
thomwhich modules to blacklist10:21
mdzI think using hal would make a huge project even huger10:21
thompitti: different problem space, i think10:21
elmooh, you mean that kind of DB10:21
pittithom: hal 0.4.0 has a lot of extensions, though10:21
elmoI thought you meant ZDHW10:21
mdzelmo: ZDHW?10:21
thomelmo: it'd tie into zero day hardware, i think10:22
mdzisn't that the same as the hardware db we're talking about?10:22
thompitti: a web DB?10:22
elmomdz: ZDHW is user-orientated10:22
elmo(well it is in MY mind ;-)10:22
=== MrTom is now known as MrTom-away
elmotho, there's certainly overlap10:22
thomcan we move ZDHW/this to a different meeting? (is it a hoary goal?)10:22
mdzI envisioned a client app which would scan the system and ask questions, and upload the information to a central db10:23
mdzwhich would also have a web frontend10:23
mdzbut mostly we would trawl it for information10:23
mdzthe web frontend of that = ZDHW?10:23
thommdz: i think so10:23
sabdflcould be linked :-)10:23
mdzyes, let's treat that separately10:23
mdzsame database, different app10:23
sabdflso there are several challenges10:23
bob2if you're going to ask people to send in info, the db results need to be open10:24
sabdfl(a) the design of the database (yay!)10:24
mdzI think the collection app is the first step10:24
pittithom: ok, I think I misunderstood the purpose10:24
sabdfl(b) the app that collects the data10:24
sabdfl(c) figuring out what the data means10:24
sabdfl(d) integrating it with the scripts that autoconf the setup10:24
sabdfllike x, sound, network, etc10:24
sabdflthat's a lot of work10:25
mdzyes, but we can do it in stages10:25
mdzfirst the db + app10:25
sivangwow, and auto bug reproduction system....10:26
ograreproduction ?10:26
sivangaccording to what sabdfl just outline, so it sound like.10:26
mdzI think he means the possibility of finding people with similar hardware to try to reporduce bugs10:26
mdzwhich I think is a good application of the system10:26
mdzthe user could volunteer their contact info so that we could ask them for help in testing10:27
sabdflthat's an interesting idea10:27
ograsouds good10:27
thomeww, that means storing contact info10:27
sabdflmake it a two-way flow10:27
thomRUN AWAY10:27
mdzthom: link to Person :-)10:27
jdubhardware matchmaker!10:27
sivangeach interested party would list his details on the bugdb, and when the need arise we politely ask him to test10:27
sabdflthom, have you SEEN the database of DOOM recently?10:27
mdzjdub: your systems are compatible!10:27
jdub"i love matrox too! see you on friday!"10:27
mdzthis stuff would be very interesting to summarize, too10:28
sabdfl"nice cpu's wanna ....'?10:28
thomsabdfl: no. but i do need to ask, have you looked into UK regs for personal data storage?10:28
sabdflthom: hmmm... no10:28
thom(the legal stuff, i mean)10:28
thomyou absolutely utterly need to10:28
sabdflnot sure if we are technically in that part of the uk10:29
mdzwe're going to store that stuff anyway, so that's not a problem specific to the hardware db10:29
=== jdub attempts to upload to hoary...
sabdfljdub: x.org?10:29
jdubpre-emptive strike!10:29
sabdflok, moving on...10:29
mdzso thom, you're going to take on the hardware db?10:30
mdzwith support from the rest of us, of course10:30
sabdflno, let's have a separate meeting for that10:30
thommdz: can we have a sep meeting?10:30
mdzmoving on10:30
mdz Derivative Distributions10:30
mdzwhat can we do in the hoary timeframe?10:30
sabdflshould have a lot of plumbing in place for christmas10:31
sabdflat least for more adventurous / skillful candidates10:31
mdzthis isn't specifically ubuntu stuff10:31
mdzunless you want to do the branding crack10:31
sabdfl-yes, exctly10:31
mdzit shouldn't require changes to the distribution itself10:31
mdzyes to branding crack? or yes to not specifically ubuntu?10:31
sabdflyes to brandability of derivatives10:32
sabdflwhich touches hoary10:32
mdztouches?  molests10:32
sabdfleasy tiger10:32
sabdflwe only deal in mature packages10:32
sabdflable, certainly10:32
mdzok, that needs a metting and a spec I think10:32
=== MrTom-away is now known as MrTom
mdzmeeting, even10:33
thomsabdfl: http://www.informationcommissioner.gov.uk/ for DPA stuff10:33
azeemcompenentized linux made branding possible some time ago, and people seemed to like it10:33
jdubi'm thinking of making ubuntu-artwork divert a bunch of other art-related branding things10:33
jdubso you can just replace u-a for all of that10:33
mdz" Enforce main/universe separation on buildds (LaMontJones?)"10:33
mdzlamont: all you10:33
dokohe's still away10:34
mdzthat's the end of the list!10:34
sabdflwell done10:34
mdzthanks for hanging in there10:34
=== jdub dances around like kermit
mdzespecially those of little sleep10:34
dokoleft out the launchpad integration10:35
mdzmako: can we get a transcription and summary?10:35
bob2jdub: V.10:35
sivang26hrs in a row?10:35
mdzdoko: that's another meeting10:35
jdubbob2: sprite recharge ;)10:35
bob2jdub: hah10:35
seb128'night jdub :)10:35
mdzmeeting adjourned, thanks everyone10:35
=== mdz ices his wrists
sivangthank you10:36
bob24:35, hard core10:36
mvo__thanks mdz10:36
=== jdub goes to pay attention to pipka
seb128'night thom 10:36
sabdflcheers all, thanks mdz10:36
dokothanks for the moderation10:36
seb128'night everybody10:36
mdzI'll write up my notes for the wiki10:36
jdubthanks mdz10:36
sivangnight thom10:37
ograthanks for enabling us to participate :)10:37
sivangmdz : you're gonna do this on the new wiki?10:37
mdzsivang: yes10:37
mdza bit later, need a break10:37
sivangah ofcourse10:37
jdubnew wiki hurts my brain :|10:38
sabdfljdub: i'm thinking we should keep moin format as recommended default10:38
jdubsabdfl: what about the tables?10:38
jdubinline html, or...?10:39
sabdfljdub: we got tables in10:39
sabdfli don't like the moin format but we can handle it now10:39
sabdfl(moing table format)10:39
sivangsabdfl : would it be ok of you to discuss things like wiki integration and other doc related stuff on CC meeting? or do you prefer it to be a seperate one?10:39
sabdflsivang yes please put it in the agenda10:40
dokomdz: please put my name to the TestingInfrastructure thing, at least as a co-worker10:40
sivangsabdfl : ok np. I've already added to it10:40
makomdz: yes10:43
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sivangnight all10:55
Kamionmdz: restricted/installer is trivial, it's a "file a bug and wait for Kamion to have a spare hour" routine11:00
Kamionmdz: TestingInfrastructure> have I already massively pimped joeyh's d-i autoinstall framework at you? it's awesome11:01
Kamionmdz: he's been doing full CD tests out of cron lately11:02
Kamionworks with iLO, which IIRC we have on some of our boxes11:02
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mdzdoko: ok11:13
mdzmako: thanks11:13
mdzKamion: sounds very interesting, where can we get more info/11:13
Kamionmdz: svn://svn.debian.org/d-i/people/joeyh/autoinstall/ is probably the best place for now11:14
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sabdflKamion: we have iLO on the new itaniums, and please go ahead on the restricted-free option11:45
elmonah, we don't, iLO is an x86 server only option11:47
elmothe Itaniums have something much less fun, called "MP"11:47
Kamionhowever joeyh also does have something going on ia64, may not be with iLO11:48
KamionI think it's just netboot over serial console11:48
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