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=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Community Council meeting, 2004-10-26 1600UTC || Agenda: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
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=== bluefoxicy idles here until 16:00UTC . . . 14 hours from now. . . it's 10pm . . .12 noon?
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ctalkepwhat's going on with the meeting??11:13
Seveasctalkep, see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda11:16
ctalkepSeveas, thanks, but when is 1600 UTC?11:19
Seveasin less then 7 hours11:20
Seveasit is now 09:20 UTC11:20
ctalkepSeveas, ok, thanks, how do i chek the utc time anyway?11:20
SeveasI alway just remember the difference between my local time and UTC11:21
ctalkepSeveas, doing it the hard way...:)11:21
ctalkepSeveas, waht MastersOfTheUniverse might be?11:23
SeveasI think that is about administering the "Universe" repository11:23
ctalkepSeveas, thanks a lot11:24
Gmailwhat was the out come of last nights meeting?02:09
Kamionthere was no one single outcome; it was a very long meeting involving going through all the hoary goals, deciding which to do and which to leave for later, allocating them to people, and debating some of the details02:28
Gmailgfx installer?02:29
Kamionnot committing to it for hoary but we're going to start the work; may not land until grumpy02:29
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bluefoxicymeeting is what 3 hours?02:48
bluefoxicyI've got 12:48UTC here02:48
thomyep, 3 hours looks right02:53
danielsyeah, 3h is right03:11
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Gmailam i on the wrong side of the netspilt?04:08
Gmailor not?04:08
Seveasdepends on what you call good and wrong04:11
Seveasif you dan't want to be near me, you're at the wrong side obviously >:)04:11
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sparkescould be a non productive meeting if this doesn't get sorted today04:30
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DacInBCDo I have the right time?04:54
aswin one hour? 04:55
DacInBCdamn I thought I was 5 minutes away, I seem to be off by an hour04:56
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Kamionwell, we have three community council members here, can't be that bad04:59
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aswhi Kamion. I really enjoyed chatting with you the other day. 05:02
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bluefoxicyo.x tired05:20
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=== mako waves to everyone
=== T-Bone waves back
=== bluefoxicy yawns and tailwaves
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mdzwho is running the CC meeting today?05:58
sivangyou maybe ? :)06:00
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sivangsabdfl ?06:00
ctalkephi guys06:00
mdzhe'll join shortly06:00
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sivangProactiveSecurity is the first one?06:01
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sabdflhi all06:01
sivanghey sabdfl06:01
KamionProactiveSecurity isn't a CC matter; it should be discussed elsewhere, maybe ubuntu-devel and then the tech board if there's a controversial decision to be taken06:02
johnlevinhi sabdfl06:02
johnlevinhi sivang06:02
sabdflKamion: agreed, let me get things rolling06:02
sabdflelmo, mako, around?06:02
makosabdfl: yep06:02
sivangso the new developers mentoring maybe?06:03
Kamionsabdfl: sorry to preempt, was mainly answering a question from sivang from just before you joined06:03
sabdflnoprob, was late, apologies06:03
sabdflsivang: let's get elmo in here06:03
sivangKamion : you did ? what did I ask?06:03
Kamion17:01 < sivang> ProactiveSecurity is the first one?06:03
sivanghey elmo06:03
sabdflelmo: was just sms'ing a fly for the trout :-)06:04
sabdflok, let's get going06:04
sabdflJohnMoser, around?06:04
mdznot here06:04
sabdflnot sure what his nick is on irc, but I agree with Kamion06:04
Kamionthat's bluefoxicy I think06:04
Kamion16:54  * bluefoxicy yawns and tailwaves06:05
Kamionmaybe gone to bed06:05
makofive minutes before the meeting :)06:05
Kamionah, there06:05
sabdflhaving said that, he did phrase it in a "what does the community want" sort of way, so let's address that06:05
sabdfltechnical discussion is tech board's department06:05
=== bluefoxicy John Moser
bluefoxicyYes, I'm sure it'll be a very short discussion06:06
sabdflbluefoxicy: care to comment?06:06
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bluefoxicythe tech board will be where the deep discussion occurs on proactive security.  :)06:06
bluefoxicysabdfl:  about Proactive Security?  (*first time here*)06:06
sabdfldo we need to discuss this here? your hnt was intriguing but oblique06:06
Kamionactually I'd say the deep discussion should happen on ubuntu-devel; the tech board should take any hard decisions that aren't clear to the development community, I feel06:07
sabdflbluefoxicy: this is the community council meeting06:07
sabdflmainly, we are focused on how the ubuntu community organises itself06:07
sabdflroles and responsibilities06:07
sabdflappointments and policies06:07
bluefoxicysabdfl:  Ah.  I know nothing.  :)06:07
sabdflbluefoxicy: ok, then please read the governance section of the web site for future agenda items :-)06:07
bluefoxicysabdfl:  Would it be appropriate to skip the topic altogether and move it to a more appropriate forum?06:07
Kamionis there a group of people interested in investigating this kind of issue, perhaps with the toolchain people?06:08
sabdflbluefoxicy: yes, thanks06:08
mdzKamion: I have a couple of names06:08
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sabdfllet's move on to mentoring06:08
KamionOK, maybe we can revisit this when there's some kind of appointment to be made06:08
=== bluefoxicy decides to stick around to get a better grasp on what goes on here, backgrounds.
sivangprobably now ubuntu is laking manpower to do mentroing, IMHO06:09
sabdflwe haven't done a good enough job of mapping out a "new maintainer" process06:09
sabdflmaybethat's a good focus for discussion now06:09
sabdfland will lead us nicely into the "masters of the universe" topic06:09
sabdflcan I throw it open for discussion on:06:10
sabdfl - what sort of process we want for maintainer appointments06:10
sabdfl - how we'll distinguish between universe and main maintainers, if at all06:10
sabdfl - how mentoring can fit into that framework06:10
sabdflfire away06:10
Kamionbefore touching process, I think we need to know what criteria we expect maintainers to fulfil before accepting them06:10
Henri1Perhaps one should set up a list of 'Junior Jobs', like KDE has, which are easy dev tasks for beginners to start on. I think they do it in bugzilla in fact.06:10
sabdflKamion: also, need to define the responsibilities and authority, so we know how much good / damage a maintainer could do06:11
mdzat the BOF in Oxford, we outlined a scheme which involved a natural progression from someone who submits patches through being a team leader06:11
T-Bonesabdfl: what about gateways for say "people who are already debian maintainers"?06:12
mdzand what responsibilities would be involved at each level of commitment06:12
makoKamion: a lot of those "answers" are up here: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/maintainers06:12
sabdflt-bone: yes, this makes sense06:12
sivangT-Bone : this has already been used:) AFAIK06:12
sabdflin a real sense a dd is already an ubuntu maintainer06:12
Kamionat the universe level, at least06:12
sabdflbecause when we are in hotsync mode an upload to debian is effectively also an upload to ubuntu06:12
Kamionmako: ah, yes06:12
T-Bonesabdfl: good to know. Given how long the Debian NM process is, i'd rather not go through it twice ;)06:12
makowell, in a similar, so is an upstream.. but in relation to unierse, it is clearly the case06:13
makoT-Bone: i don't think the goal is to replicate NM :)06:13
makoat least, it's not my goal06:13
sabdflt-bine in addition to this it makes sense to have a fast track for proven dd's06:13
T-Bonemako: *G* ;)06:13
T-Bonesabdfl: right06:13
sabdfli'd like us to have fast track processes for people who are upstream06:13
sabdflas mako points out, it's their code we are shipping06:14
Kamionthere are upstreams and upstreams, of course06:14
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makoi'd like us to fast track processes for anyone who has proven they are technical competant and socially capable :)06:14
makoand motivated enough to stick around :)06:14
sabdflhmm... having written http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/maintainers i'm finding it hard to disagree with it :-)06:15
T-Bonemako: hehe; gonna make yourself a few friends ;)06:15
sabdflKamion: naturally :-)06:15
mdzand being an upstream does not usually qualify you to make packaging decisions06:15
Kamionworth noting that we've had an upstream come very close to trying to trojan Debian in the past06:15
makoif we know those things, and if the TB and CC can sign off on it, we're good to go06:15
sabdflKamion: not a risk we can mitigate from serious projects06:15
T-Boneboth mdz and Kamion are right too06:15
sabdflwe agreed TB and CC both need to sign off on a new maintainer06:15
mdzmost upstreams have zero experience with packaging, having relied on others to do it06:16
=== mako remembers at least one of them
sabdflso fast track is fine, given that we have a review process06:16
mdzwhat will the input to the review process be, though?06:16
sabdfli think in the early days we will get by with track record and community credibility06:16
sabdfli don't think we should decline Linus' request to maintain the kernel06:17
sabdflshould it come :-)06:17
mdzI think linus would be a fairly crap kernel package maintainer, to be honest :-)06:17
T-Bonesabdfl: you'll have to define "community credibility" tho, adn that's not gonna be trivial, i'm afraid06:17
makomdz: well in your role on the TB, you'd be able to make that position heard IRT linus :)06:18
sabdflt-bone, to a certain extent we can be brutal in the beginning06:18
sivangwhat is going to be done to allow new people into the NM / devel process? many want to assist and help in development, but don't know how to start.06:18
Kamionin the early days, do we expect to have enough CC bandwidth to review candidates individually?06:18
T-Bonesabdfl: agreed06:18
makoKamion: yes06:18
sabdflKamion: i would rely heavily on peer assessment06:18
mdzwhat about people that we don't already know, either personally or by reputation?  that's where we need additional input into the process06:18
makoi mean sort of.. they will be mentored06:18
makoand will have done work06:18
KamionI realise we won't, in the long run; but the experience will let us work out what we need from peer assessment06:18
makomdz: we ask them to find a mentor and to work in the community until they we do know them06:19
makomdz: until we do know them06:19
Kamionsabdfl: that's fine, I'm just trying to work out whether we can get away without trying to delegate an essentially undefined process right from the start :-)06:19
sabdflwe could think of this as an exercise in pipelining06:19
Kamionwe can delegate once it's better-defined06:19
sabdflwe need to setup the pipeline, defining where people need to start06:19
sabdflfor example, have a page that lists work that needs doing06:20
sabdfland a commitment to review submissions against that list06:20
sabdfland keep track of who has done what06:20
sivangsabdfl : finally :)06:20
sabdflas people progress up that list, we'll get a sense of their progress06:20
mdzwho will do that bookkeeping?06:20
Kamionmdz: of course, we don't necessarily have to be as focused on packaging as Debian is; most of our wishlist is development more than packaging06:20
sabdflso for absolute community newbies, they always know where they stand06:20
mdzKamion: true06:20
makoso.. i guess my question is what is missing from the maintainers page now?06:21
mdzKamion: in our progression, though, we defined a maintainer as someone who makes new releases of packages06:21
sabdfli would very much like to keep an explicit test of packaging policy knowledge in the pipeline06:21
mdzwhich is firmly in packaging territory06:21
T-Bonesabdfl: looks like what you're defining is basically a BTS with assignement tracking06:21
sabdflmdz: do you have a url for those stages?06:21
mdzsabdfl: I have a text file of my notes06:21
mdzcould paste it here06:21
sabdflt-bone: and a record of quality of work done06:21
sabdflmdz: go for it06:22
T-Bonebugs are filed, with a "difficulty" markup, and assigned to volunteers06:22
mdz        makes changes in their own branches06:22
mdz        uses branches to submit their changes to committers and maintainers06:22
mdz        anyone can do this06:22
mdz        essentially unprivileged, but much more fun than the unprivileged mode06:22
mdz        of most projects06:22
=== asw wonders if mdz could post the text file to devel
mdz-> commit rights06:22
mdz        can merge their stuff into mainline06:22
mdz        granted by maintainer06:22
mdz-> maintainership06:22
mdz        can issue a new official release06:22
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mdz-> team leadership06:22
mdz-> technical council & governance council06:22
mdz        include team leaders for decisions06:22
mdzthis was jdub's BOF; I expected he would post notes to the wiki06:22
mdzso a patcher is essentially unprivileged, someone who is interested in doing work06:23
mdzbut we provide means for them to trivially submit their changes to committers and maintainers06:23
sabdflquite a lot of that depends on a good revision control system, which we do not have right ow06:23
mdzthat sounds like the right place to start, where this review would take place06:24
sabdflcan we make this workable on a straight "flying patches" basis?06:24
mdzwell, making it trivial requires that06:24
makomdz: send that file to me and i will post it in the summary for the meeting06:24
mdzsending patches is more work, but we can streamline that process as well06:24
mdzmako: ok06:24
mdzmako: they're raw06:24
sabdflok. we have the MaintainerCandidates page on the wiki06:25
mdzwe could provide a simple command line tool or two to manage a patch queue06:25
sabdflmdz: ?06:25
mdzsabdfl: so I've downloaded the source for a package, and make some changes06:25
=== sabdfl didnt think that he would ever hear "simple command line tool" and "revision control system" in the same line again
mdzsabdfl: we could make it easy to turn that into a patch and drop it someplace where it caneb reviewed06:26
mdzsabdfl: ah, that's because I was talking about doing this before revision control :-)06:26
mdzI would actually prefer that it be more streamlined than a BTS06:26
mdzthat's part of the problem with the Debian contributor approach06:26
sabdflmdz: would you like a dedicated system for tracking each of these patches, in a queue?06:27
mdzhaving to file a bug to submit something creates this negative ethos around the process06:27
mdzmaintainers take it as criticism, contributors shy away from it06:27
mdzsabdfl: yes, but very very simple06:27
sabdflmdz: ok06:27
mdzat its core it would take as input a source package and a working tree, and a description (log message)06:28
=== mako is still a little doubtful about another system
mdzand drop the patch into a directory where the maintainer can review it06:28
sabdfli don't think i can add another project to the development queue and have it ready before the december conf06:28
mdzif the deadline is december, perhaps we can do better ;-)06:28
sabdfli can definitely do better, but it will be a trade of this for the bug tracker, sooner06:29
Kamionit doesn't really want to be web-driven anyway, could just be mail triggered by a command-line tool06:29
mdzthis shouldn't be contingent on implementation details, anyway; the important thing is the role06:29
sabdflfrom my side we want to promise two things:06:29
Gmailas we are on the subject of package maintanor i wound like to add: can the package maintanor add the program to gnome menu and kde menu when it makes sence to like all games should be in the games menu or you can do what debian does and make a ubuntu menu. </my-2cents>06:29
sabdfl - rapid review of patches, so candidates get steady, reliable feedback06:29
sabdfl  - an insititutional memory of the quality of work that was done, so candidates build up a track record06:30
mdzGmail: that would be a technical decision to be made by the desktop team06:30
makoGmail: i think that's a slightly different topic.. and perhaps more for teh technical board06:30
sivangsabdfl : insititutional <== maybe documented in some sort06:30
mdzit screams revision control, doesn''t it?06:31
sabdfli'd lke people to be able to point at a web page somewhere and say "that's my contribution to date"06:31
sabdflyes, and database06:31
sabdflhmm.... :-)06:31
Gmailisnt it the package manigers job to package stuff correctly? so it will be his job to package it that stuff gets added to the menu??06:31
Henri1A dedicated phpBB board where patchers write a short message describing their patch, and include it as an attachment?06:31
elmosabdfl: damn, dude, I'm surprised you manage to have lunch without finding a reason to design a database for it :-P06:32
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sabdflelmo: it's already in the design: industrial karma, remember?06:32
mdzGmail: it is the package maintainer's responsibility to follow the technical direction of the project06:32
Henri1Could be set up in hours and would track user participation06:32
sabdfljust not in the implementation  pipeline yet06:32
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makoi don't think having a fully tracked full-blown database is necessary for determining if people do work to the point where they would make good maintainers06:32
KamionHenri1: I don't think most people want to fire up a web browser just to send a patch ...06:32
KamionHenri1: these people are already at the command-line doing work there06:33
sabdflok, simplest option is to have a place that the maintainers can write to that says "i agree, xxx did this work, it was good"06:33
makoi think we should insist on maintainers being mentored and trust that a lot.. and then expect maintainers to come forth with evidence of their continued and long-term good work :)06:33
makosabdfl: yeah, provide links06:33
Henri1I guess I'm more gui and web based than most :)06:33
=== sivang agrees with mako
sabdflok, here's a proposal06:33
elmois the maintainers for MOTU or something else, btw?06:33
sabdflwe put the cv tracking in the hands of the maintainer candidate06:33
sabdflon the wiki06:34
makosabdfl: a fully blown echelon system would be great, or even a little brother system, but it's a lot of work and not essential :)06:34
sabdflso when someone has a patch accepted they add it to their wiki, with a comment from the mentor06:34
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makoan "application" to the technical board should include evidence of work in ubuntu and/or debian over a period of time06:34
makoergh. to the CC/TB06:34
T-Bonedon't want to sound too dark here, but managing maintainers also includes managing their removal, which can happen for various reasons (among which stands self-retiring, and inactive maintainers)06:34
makoT-Bone: right, we've got automatic retiring if people don't renew it06:35
sabdflt-bone: what mako said06:35
T-Bonei think elmo has some figures about how many inactive maintainers we have in debian already :}06:35
makosabdfl: which i was less excited about last time but super excited about now having talked to some folks about the way it works in freebsd :)06:35
Kamionsabdfl: that works for me, puts the onus on the prospective maintainer, and we can do a quick check for truthfulness06:35
T-Bonemako: ok06:35
makoT-Bone: tbm is the one who has done that research AFAIK06:35
sabdflhere's another suggestion06:35
sabdfllet's use the existing bts's for tracking the status of the actual patch06:36
sabdflso say a bug gets opened, and a candidate wants to hepl out06:36
sabdflthey put a note saying they are working on a patch06:36
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sabdflthey attach the patch and then ask for a review06:36
thomsabdfl: like the mozilla review and superreview stuff?06:36
makoperhaps they cc a list06:36
sabdflwhen the patch is accepted, they can ad that bug to their wiki cv06:37
Kamionthom: could be just by the maintainer in our case06:37
sabdflthom: yes06:37
Kamion(which is kind of like mozilla sr I guess)06:37
sabdflwe should offer a promise of a review within a certain timeframe06:37
thomyeah, sr is the component owner, so =~ maintainer for us06:37
sabdfl48 hours06:37
sabdflso people don't work on patches that sit in limbo06:38
sabdflbut, at the same time, we don't have to promise to try to turn turds into diamonds06:38
Kamionperhaps 2 working days rather than 48 hours06:38
thomsabdfl: a week is probably more reasonable ; aim for 48 hours, promise a week06:38
=== Kamion doesn't want to commit to working weekends :-)
sabdflif the patch is b0rked, say so, 06:38
sabdfland move on06:38
sabdflwith maybe a hint as to where to look for better results06:38
sabdflok, happy for mdz and his team to set the level of the commitment they are comfortable06:39
sabdflis this sounding workable?06:39
sivangwhat about stuff other then docs that entails you to be called a maintainer? or is packaging most of it?06:40
mdzI think we can implement it, yes06:40
Kamionwe haven't really done mentoring as such yet. perhaps mentors could act to review patches as well as the component maintainer?06:40
Kamionthat seems like a reasonably straightforward way to go about it, and IIRC bugzilla has some support for that kind of thing06:40
sabdflsivang: i'm open to suggestions as to how we can get doc writers to have full commit capability06:40
sabdfli think mentoring here is the general process of "reviewing patches" 06:41
sabdflhopefully people strike up personal relationships06:41
mdzthere is much more to it than reviewing patches06:41
sabdflif someone gets along well with an existing ubuntu maintainer, they will naturally ask them for guidance06:41
hornbecksabdfl: I think if doc writers are to have permission to commit they need to be mentored by dev's first in the proper way of doing everythin06:41
mdzthere should be some assistance given to the process of learning how the system is put together, in order to make effective patches06:41
sabdflmdz: elaborate?06:41
sabdflhornbecK: i would trust that a doc writer would not commit code changes, if that's part of the social structure and agreement06:42
mdzsabdfl: what will we provide in order to allow the contributor to get to the point of making effective patches?06:42
hornbecksabdfl: true06:42
mdzprobably a lot of documentation06:43
makohornbeck: if we can't trust doc writers to not upload kernels they shouldn't be maintiners06:43
hornbeckmako: understood06:43
sabdflmako: disagree06:43
makobeing a maintainer is ultimately about trust06:43
sabdflhmm... maybe agree, depending on how i interpret your words06:43
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mdzsabdfl: I think he was agreeing with you06:43
sabdflmako: yes, exactly06:43
sivangsabdfl : agreed06:43
sabdfland that goes for docs as much as code06:43
makosabdfl: i think i agreed with you, so i suspect i'm just being opaque :)06:43
mdzone of the points of consensus from oxford was that we would promote social solutions over technical ones for problems like this06:44
sabdflso an ubuntu maintainer is "someone with a track record of consistent, regular and excellent contributions to ubuntu"06:44
sabdfl"who has the ability to make changes to ubuntu packages without reference to other maintainers when outside of freeze"06:44
sabdflsound good?06:44
sabdflcould be docs, design, code06:44
sivangsabdfl : how do we quantify that ?06:44
hornbecksounds good to me06:44
sabdflsivang: once you are in you are in06:45
sabdflat least, all of the above makes sense for main06:45
mdzsabdfl: the key distinction of a maintainer from the governance BOF was that they can make new releases of a package06:45
sabdflwhat about universe / multiverse?06:45
mdzthat distinguishes them from someone with commit access who is not yet a maintainer06:45
sabdflmdz: when we have commit without upload, that will be meaningful :-)06:45
mdztrue enough06:46
sabdflmako, could you draw up a draft process06:46
sabdflusing bugzilla06:47
sabdflhow someone would flag a contribution for review06:47
sabdfland the commitment we make to that pipeline06:47
sabdflalso, we need to discuss a test of knowledge of packaging policy06:47
sabdfli think that's importand for -doc and -dev teams 06:47
sabdflwhat's the best way to administer such a test?06:47
=== mako nods to sabdfl
sabdflmdz, kamion?06:54
mdzthat's the NM problem06:54
makosabdfl: i think the best test is just doing it06:54
KamionI'd rather the test be based on what people have produced06:54
T-Boneheh, indeed06:54
mdzif there were a straightforward solution, NM wouldn't be such a mess :-)06:54
Kamionheh, mako> snap06:54
sabdflagreed, past product is essential06:54
sabdflbut it's also useful to know if someone can actually give the right answer immediately without reference to the docs06:54
Kamionyou can't really test that, though, not without being in the same room06:54
mdzhaving immediate recall is not all that important06:54
makothe point is, if you have producing debs for debian for the last 4 years, ubuntu for the last 4 months, there is no need to ask you 50 questions on packing :)06:54
sabdflwhat about a telephone interview, answering 10 questions out of a possible 200?06:54
mdzit lets you work faster, but not more effectively06:54
makosabdfl: i don't think that's important at all06:54
mdzI find that a far better indication of the quality of someone's work is that they know when to look in the docs or ask questions06:54
Kamionsabdfl: I'd much rather that somebody knew where to look in the docs than that they made up answers without looking06:54
sabdflmako: we don't want to tell people to go somewhere else for 4 years06:54
makosabdfl: in fact, knowing when to look at the docs06:54
T-Bonesabdfl: telephone interview implies that the candidate is fluent in its interviewer language, too06:54
makosabdfl: that was an example of an overqualified applicatoin, not a suggestion for where the bar should be06:54
sivangsabdfl : this is the exact feeling I've been getting :(06:54
sabdflKamion: if they make up the answers, they are unlikely to get them right, ad they fail the test06:54
Kamionsabdfl: the Debian NM "answer enormous numbers of arbitrary questions with no relevance to your work" is one of its biggest flaws06:54
makoKamion: AOL06:54
sabdflKamion: agreed, and tb/cc can see past that06:54
Kamionsabdfl: if the questions were relevant to their work, then the answers would already be demonstrably part of the work they've produced06:54
sabdflbut i still think we should know that a maintainer, doc or dev, has really read and taken on board those documents06:54
Kamionnot to mention, experienced developers look up the documentation all the time06:54
Kamionit's simply not a good use of brain cells to memorise them06:54
=== mako nods
sabdfland a reasonable answer might be "hell yes, i know that's in plicy under this section, i can't quite remember if it's this dir or that dir"06:54
makoif you haven't read policy, you make policy mistakes06:54
Henri1A telephone interview doesn't have to be standard questions, but could just rely on the interviewers judgement.06:54
Kamionok, if that's to be considered an acceptable answer, then fine06:54
sabdflbut i feel strongly that an expectation of study and test is part of the process, if a small part06:54
sivangsabdfl : do we have an ubuntu policy already? or are we reverting to debia's ?06:54
T-BoneHenri1: still, there's the problem of language fluency06:54
sabdflT-Bone: we would accommodate that06:54
sivangyou could just being thoughtful for people who's english not their native tounge.06:54
makosabdfl: i'm worried that it is in danger of repliucating the parts of NM i like are most flawed06:54
sabdflsivang: eloquently put06:54
Kamionit inevitably does colour an interviewer's judgement06:54
sivangwait more for the answer, guide the person if he's on the right track06:54
T-Bonesabdfl: i honestly wonder how ;) Besides, people might not necessarily feel cumfortable in a telephone interview, though being potentially very good packagers...06:54
Henri1People have to communicate to submit patches anyway06:54
mdzwhere possible, we should match candidates with mentors who can converse with them in the language where they are most comfortable06:54
KamionIRC interviews are much superior to telephone interviews for our purposes06:54
Henri1agree IRC sounds good06:54
sabdflok, i think we're on the same basic track06:54
T-BoneHenri1: it's much more easier to _write_ in a foreign language than to speak it fluently; for you have _time_ to consider what you're writing06:54
Henri1For most people :)  06:54
T-Boneand writings don't suffer from incomprehensible accents ;^)06:55
sabdflpeople will start by submitting patches, for review, managed in the bts06:55
sabdflthey willkeep trak of actual work done06:55
makoi think there are some very nice things we can do in an irc interview and it's worth following up .. but i still don't really like the idea of expecting peopel to memorize policy and be tested.. 06:55
sparkesT-Bone, as someone with a strong accent I second that ;-)06:55
sabdflthey will progress to the point they want to be considered as a maintainer06:56
sabdflthey will understand that they will be tested, in an appropriate communications medium, on policy06:56
sabdflmako, i think it's vital people see it as a real test of knowledge06:56
sabdflyou can be brilliant, and still clueless06:56
Kamionmako: we can leave the extent of the test up to the judgement of the tester, I think06:56
T-Boneabsolutely right06:56
Kamiondon't think the CC needs to prescribe that just yet06:56
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sabdflwe'll have fast-track for people who can justify it06:56
sabdfldd's, upstreams-not-on-crack06:57
Henri1An open book IRC test, where people have a chance to look stuff up06:57
sabdfljudge's decision is final no correspondence will be entered into06:57
Kamionabove all, don't waste people's time when they're clearly good, and don't waste our time on people who are clearly hopeless :-)06:57
sabdflwe should NOT promise that anybody can be a maintainer06:57
=== mako nods
sabdfli won't be afraid to decline an application, i'll ask mdz to do the same06:58
T-Bonesounds good06:58
hornbeckthats the way it should be06:58
sivangAgain I am still puzzled how we can quantify the issue, especially for doc writers.06:58
makosabdfl: right, i see the argument for the test. i won't block consensus on it or anything but i'm not wild about it either, that's it06:58
mdzthe trick is to decline in a way that doesn't discourage improvement and re-submission06:59
sabdflsivang, we cant, but it's in our interests to try to build a healthy community of good people06:59
sabdflmako: let's see how it goes and tweak process based on experience06:59
sabdflok, for a complete newbie, i expect the process to take... how long?07:00
sabdfl4-12 months depending on ability?07:00
sivangthat;s the question I was after..:)07:00
sabdflKamion, elmo, mdz?07:00
mdzhard to say07:00
=== Kamion isn't sure "complete newbie" is a useful place to start, it covers a multitude of sind
sivangI'll give myself as an example,07:00
Kamionsomebody who can code but doesn't know anything about Ubuntu? couple of months07:01
sabdflok, say someone who is a fast learner and puts in the time, knows linux well but not ubuntu or debian07:01
mdzsabdfl: a complete newbie to the process, or a complete newbie to Debian packaging?07:01
Kamionsomebody who already has a good working knowledge of Linux and puts in the time? a month or so07:01
sabdflok, we'll just have to find out07:01
=== asw offers self as test case. me too.
sivangKnowing some Debian and linux, knowing how to code07:01
Kamionbut this is all finger-in-the-air made-up numbers :-)07:01
mdzit's much more a factor of their attitude and commitment than the time07:01
sivanghaving troubles with packaging though,07:02
mdzI know people who, even though they are completely ignorant of Debian packaging, I would trust them to begin work immediately, because I know that where they don't know the answer, they would seek it out07:02
T-Bonesabdfl: if that's just about "learning packaging practices", (someone who's definitely not a newbie then), i'd say that 1 month is a max07:02
sabdflit will be hard to say no to some enthusiastic guys, but mdz is right, it's more a question of deferrment till the level of quality is right07:02
DacInBChere's another example: long time programmer, linux experience, no debian or ubuntu experience07:02
makomdz: yesyesyes07:02
Kamion(took me about six months from starting to mess about with Debian packages to even applying, and that wasn't because I was put off by the process; admittedly I was doing finals at the time)07:02
mdzthat is the kind of quality that I look for07:02
sivangsabdfl : meaning I should not ask, until i have _exhusted_ all other resources?07:02
makomdz: right, me too07:03
sabdflall other resources?07:03
aswI've used debian for years and GNU/Linux since forever but I thought package maintainers were some kind of gods... 07:03
sivangmailing lists (debian)07:03
Kamionsivang: there's no sense wasting your time when you're clearly stuck and need guidance, but at the same time you shouldn't expect other people to read you the documentation07:03
sabdflno, ask on -devel07:03
sabdflbut read whatever you are pointed to07:03
sivangKamion : I wasn't expecting that. Just had time where I dind't know _what_ the docs are 07:03
sabdflKamion: snap07:04
sivangi mena, where to read07:04
Kamionsivang: certainly 'tis fair to ask for pointers07:06
sivangI mean, going over /doc at debian's sure has lots of inof,07:06
sabdflok, another thing we could do is publish a maintainers reading list :-)07:06
mdzin general, if I answer with a google URL which finds you the answer with some obvious keywords, you should have searched first :-)07:06
sabdflmako, could you also put together a set of url's to relevant docs for new maintainers?07:06
sabdflhornbeck: this could also be a useful focus for the -doc team07:06
makosabdfl: yes07:06
aswsabdfl, all: I think keeping an up-to-date reading list on the wiki is a great idea.  07:06
sivangmdz : ahh, I agree. I would contribute this to an overwhelmning enthusiasm. I am working to tame this , I think you've already felt that :)07:06
makoif the doc team wants it, that's be great07:06
makomy plate is brimming already :)07:06
hornbecksabdfl: putting together some maintainer guides?07:06
makohornbeck: yeah, we can talk after the meeting about it07:06
hornbecksabdfl: or pointing to them07:06
sabdflhornbeck: yes07:06
sivangmako : that'll be great07:06
=== mako nods to sivang
hornbeckmako: will do07:06
sabdflhornbeck: start with pointing, then write better ones?07:06
sabdfli *think* that takes us to the masters-of-the-universe discussion07:06
sivangmdz : I apologize hereby for all those link questions :)07:06
hornbecksabdfl: sounds great07:06
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mdzsivang: :-)07:06
makoenrico: ciao07:06
sabdfllet me outline the goals:07:07
sabdfl - the core team is focused on main07:07
sabdfl - universe and multiverse for warty were largely just a frozen snapshot07:07
sabdfl   (with a bit of a nudge to build)07:07
sabdfl - for hoary, we want a process where the community can garden universe and multiverse07:07
sabdfl  - mainly focused at sync from debian and other sources07:08
sabdfl - aimed at closing rc bugs before the release, during the freeze07:08
sabdflbut this could be expanded to include:07:08
sabdfl - uploads of brand new packages that don't exist elsewhere07:09
sabdfl - uploads of fixes that are better than a sync to sid07:09
sabdflcomments, thoughts, volunteers?07:09
mdzsounds about right07:09
elmobear in mind that gardening of universe increases the merge load07:09
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mdzelmo: gardening includes  merging :-)07:09
pittiAs I already said on the ML, I think it would be good to focus primarily on sid07:09
hornbecksabdfl: are you looking for a few people to sit for request and be the ones who work through them?07:09
elmookay, as long as that's clear (to the gardeners07:10
pittihaving sid packages will ease maintenance in the long run07:10
aswsabdfl: you know I'd like to do this: "uploads of brand new packages that don't exist elsewhere"07:10
Kamionparticularly for uploads of brand new packages, I would like some (not necessarily all) of the mastersoftheuniverse to take responsibility for pushing what we do back to Debian, where appropriate07:10
pittiKamion: +1 :-)07:10
sabdflhornbeck: i would like the outcome of this discussion to be a process that can run itself largely without input from the core team07:10
makoKamion: ++07:10
sabdflit would be a major responsibility in that regard07:10
DacInBCsabdfl: Same here on the new packages, I want to develop some07:10
hornbecksabdfl: alright07:10
sivanganyway, I have to go now people, I hope mako would summerize it all07:10
pittia Master of the Universe should be a DD in all cases07:10
sivangmako : :)07:10
makosivang: i will07:10
Kamionthis isn't to say that people can't do work directly in hoary/universe, and there will be people who are interested who aren't Debian developers, and I think that's fair07:10
aswI think the "universe" could be a gentle path to becoming an ubuntu maintainer.  is that the idea? 07:10
Kamionpitti: I wouldn't go that far, although it depends what "Master" is07:11
pittieven if a package is not in Sid, being a DD ensures at least a minimal quality standard on audit07:11
sabdflasw: yes07:11
aswkamion: absolutely (re pushing back to debian)07:11
makopitti: not necessarily07:11
pittiKamion: if a MOU wants to sponsor uploads to Debian, it will be good if he is a DD07:11
lamontpitti: MOTU should not require DD-hood07:11
Kamionpitti: there need to be some people taking responsibility for it, but it doesn't have to be all of them07:11
pittiThe problem is, when we play around with our own universe only, the merging problem will aggravate badly over time07:11
sabdflubuntu is not a subset of debian07:11
lamontpitti: being a debian developer ensures that you can write lengthy answers to arcane questions.07:12
lamontit says nothing about package quality07:12
pittilamont: :-)07:12
mdzwe can make it very easy for Debian to incorporate our work07:12
mdzbut we cannot do Debian's work for them07:12
lamontmdz ++07:16
pittiwell, it's the same as a driver's license. Most drivers don't behave well anyway, but at least they (should) know what "good behavior" is07:16
Kamionmdz: I'd like us to be doing active liaison07:16
mdzKamion: agreed, I am saying that we should not be doing package uploads as part of that process07:16
Kamionrather than just "here's a repository of stuff"07:16
makoKamion: i think it's very important07:16
makomdz: no07:16
pittilamont: if I look at the packages my applicants presented me, it does make a difference to be a DD07:16
makomdz: as in, i agree07:16
Kamionmdz: s/doing/requiring/ and I'd agree07:16
KamionI think it's a useful optional step, and it will ease our merge load in the long run07:16
pittiI think pointing "Debian" (whoever that is) to a repo of stuff won't do anything07:16
pittithere's nobody in Debian who goes around and collects packages07:16
Kamionalso if we do active liaison we increase the likelihood that Debian will take our packages rather than some other ones, further simplifying the merge load07:16
pittiDebian packages need a maintainer and they must be pushed into Debian, not pulled07:16
mdzI agree that active liaison is beneficial and appropriate07:16
Kamionif we don't do that, we're going to run into the situation where we have to choose between the packaging in Debian and the packaging in Ubuntu07:16
Kamionand version number / upgrade problems etc. will ensue07:16
pittiso we shouldn't enforce it, but encourage?07:16
mdzbut I do not feel that uploading Ubuntu packages to Debian is appropriate, unless the Ubuntu maintainer is also a Debian maintainer and will fulfill the duties of that role07:16
Kamionmdz: that's why I said "responsibility" rather than anything else07:16
pittimdz: if he is not willing to maintain the package, it is useless anyway07:16
mdzI do not want a Debian developer to sponsor uploads of a bunch of Ubuntu packages without anyone taking responsibility for them in Debian07:16
pittiIMHO we should avoid the situation that many people dump packages into universe and does not care about them any more07:16
pittiso they need a maintainer anyway07:16
mdzyes, an Ubuntu maintainer07:16
mdzbut that person is not necessarily a Debian maintainer, and that will only become more common as time goes on07:16
sivangso basically, people maintaining universe would have to be DD first?07:16
Kamionlet's try to avoid the situation where there are two entirely separate packagings of libfoo sharing the same version number space.07:16
pittithat can as well be the Debian maintainer, it's just another name for the same thing07:16
sabdflsivang: no07:16
mdzsivang: absolutely not07:16
aswmdz: my understanding would be that a person could be an ubuntu "master of the universe" and NOT a DD.  They could not push to debian then.  However, it would be the intention (in the longer run?) of most Ubuntu Master of the universe to become Debian maintainers. 07:16
Kamionwe can do that by monitoring Debian wnpp and pointing out our packaging to people who post intent-to-package notices07:16
sabdflKamion: i'd like to think that if someone in debian wants libfoo, they will open a line of communication to people who have done that work07:16
pittiasw: ++07:17
sabdfland figure it out reasonably07:17
mdzasw: my feeling is that Debian maintainers and Ubuntu maintainers are two groups which have intersection07:17
mdza relationship with one does not imply a relationship with the other07:17
Kamionsabdfl: it's not a reasonable expectation that somebody in Debian should have to look through the Ubuntu archive before making a change in Debian07:17
mdzUbuntu maintainers who are not Debian maintainer must not be second-class07:17
lamontKamion: for new packages07:17
pittibut Ubuntu maintainers can have their debian packages sponsored by a MOTU, they don't need to be DD themselves07:17
Kamionsabdfl: that's why I think active liaison is appropriate, monitoring the Debian new-packages list07:17
aswmdz: but I'm confused because there seems to be another group "Master of the universe" kind of a junior Ubuntu maintainer with fewer priv.07:17
makoi'm with Kamion on this07:22
mdzasw: approximately, yes. but the same principle applies07:22
sabdflasw: in talking about the management of universe07:22
sabdflwe want to have a core team that manages it - the masters07:22
sabdflbut also a team of people who contribute to it07:22
sabdflthey would be like "maintainers in universe"07:22
sabdflthey can contribute uploads etc07:22
Kamionsabdfl: it's in our own interests to do this, because otherwise eventually upgrades from Debian will get more and more difficult if there are radically different packagings of stuff in universe sharing the same version number space07:22
sabdfland the universe team gets to decide what goes in, and what does not07:22
pittisabdfl: shall they be able to upload  on their own?07:22
pittiokay, that answers the question07:22
Kamionpitti: masters of the universe definitely have to07:22
sabdflKamion: we will always review the options and choose the better package07:22
pittiKamion: no, I mean the contributors (the maintainers of the u)07:22
aswkamion: I think it will be easier if you train "maintainers in universe" then as they get good they will become DDs ... potential for gentler curve... 07:22
Kamionpitti: I think it would depend, might be different levels07:22
sabdflthe universe process is still uncertain07:22
sabdflbut i think we should leave it as flexible and open as possible07:22
sabdflour default option should always be to look to see if there's a debian package for something07:22
Kamiondo we have a set of people who are obvious candidates to coalesce into a core team?07:22
sabdflbut if we have someone who wants to do uploads to ubuntu with improvements, and the universe team likes it, then we will accept them07:22
sabdflKamion: not yet07:23
aswso the structure is: cc/tb for "main" are roughly equiv. to Master's of Universe for "universe/multiverse"07:23
sabdflasw: no07:23
sabdflthe universe is still part of the community, and still must work according to the policies of the tb07:23
Kamioncc/tb are for Ubuntu07:23
Kamionas a whole07:24
sabdflbut the universe team gets to figure out how best to implement that within the universe07:24
sabdflthe primary focus of this, once again, is post-freeze07:24
pittisounds like a good compromise07:24
sabdflwhen we freeze hoary, and start working on main, we don't want universe to stagnate as much07:25
sabdflwe want to get new point releases, perhaps new packaging tweaks07:25
sabdfland we want the "nudge to build" stuff taken care of by that team07:25
=== mdz gasps at the phrase "point releases"
sabdflso universe is useful throughout the release process07:25
mdzoh, you meant upstream point releases07:25
sabdflnot of the distro :-)07:25
=== Kamion chuckles
sabdflsay, something 2.1.2 is in universe and there is a 2.1.3 release07:26
sabdflthe universe team decides whether or not that makes it in07:26
Kamionpresumably we have to start accepting bug reports on universe, and assigning them to the masters or whoever's appropriate07:26
mdza good entry level skill set for universe gardening is being able to fetch source packages from Debian, build and test them on Ubuntu07:26
Kamionare we going to attempt to do that in bugzilla?07:26
mdzwe can fairly easily pick up candidates from the mailing list for that07:26
sabdflKamion: i don't know07:26
makomdz: sure07:26
mdzI've been answering folks who ask for new stuff in universe to do exactly that07:28
mdzs/to do/by asking that they do/07:28
Kamionmostly worried about the component drop-down setting daniels' dialup on fire :-)07:28
mdzdaniels has DSL now, don't pay him any mind07:28
=== Kamion makes a note to upgrade his DSL to cope with the component list then
sabdfli *think* we'll have good infrastructure by  the hoary release07:28
mdzI think lamont is the most bandwidth-starved now07:28
sabdflthat will be dialup-safe07:28
mdzsabdfl: I'm pretty strongly against tracking universe bugs in bugzilla07:28
mdzat least, in the same bugzilla where we track main bugs07:28
sabdflmdz: agreed07:28
sabdfleither a second bugzilla, or something else07:29
mdzworks for me07:29
=== asw thinking slowly, so, it's: cc/tb > Ubuntu Main Maintainers >= Masters of Universe > Ubuntu Universe Maintainers...
mdzasw: it's a hierarchy more so than an inequality07:30
sabdflasw: yes, that puts it nicely into focus07:30
aswmdz: that's helpful re. skills required.  (fetching source, build test...) 07:30
sabdflMOTU should also be able to take a sane view on the benefits of an update vs the risks07:30
aswI like the name "gardners of Universe" ... 07:31
sabdfland be able to review an update and assess whether or not it is likely to cause breakage elesewhere07:31
sabdflok, don't want this to turn into a much longer meeting07:31
sabdfli'll draft something that outlines this and send it to -devel and -user07:32
sabdflalso, publish on the site07:32
mdzneed to discuss the doc team still07:32
Kamionasw: master07:32
hornbeckmdz: please :-)07:32
mdzhornbeck, plovs: still here?07:32
elmosorry, carton-flashbacks07:33
aswkamion: thanks. I definitely nominate the term GOTU (Gardner of the Universe) for the lesser role. 07:33
sabdflnext up07:33
sabdfldoc team?07:34
sabdflthere's been some excellent work, thank you guys07:34
mdzagreed, kudos07:34
sabdflsorry for the imposed wiki switch07:34
sabdflshould have happened before release07:34
Kamionasw: doesn't have the cartoon history to the name though :-)07:34
sabdflnonetheless, we are testing a conversion script as we speak07:35
sabdflwe should have it all converted tonight, europe time07:35
sabdflwhen we start, we will lock the old wiki07:35
mdzwe appreciate your patience during the transition; I truly believe it will be worthwhile in the long run07:35
sabdfland the new one won't be widely announced till we've cleaned up the pieces of the conversion07:35
hornbecksabdfl: we are all ready to get at it07:35
sabdflfor the moment, pick the format that works best for you07:36
sabdflthe zwiki maintainer has been fantastic07:36
sabdfland has implemented moin 07:36
sabdfli think completely07:36
hornbeckyes he has been helpful in answering questions for us07:36
mdzsabdfl: does he scan the WikiWishlist?07:36
sabdflhe's actually helping with the setup etc07:37
sabdflwith stevea07:37
sabdflso that should all be done soon07:37
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sabdflthere are still some glitches relating to authentication (logging in)07:37
sabdfland also to tracking changes, but we will get them all sorted out07:37
hornbeckgood, that seems to be the biggest problem right now07:37
sabdflALL members of the community can create pages anywhere in the site07:38
sabdflplease use that very carefully07:38
sabdfli'd prefer to keep all brainstorming in the wiki07:38
sabdflthen move content over to the main site07:38
hornbecksounds good07:38
sabdflsince the main site uses ReST and StructuredText, it's beneficial to do the wiki the same way07:39
sabdflfor the conversion later07:39
mdzwe should certainly convert the FAQs and How-Tos to the more structured plone documents07:39
mdzand maintain those outside of the wiki07:39
hornbeckmdz: that seems a problem right now with doc team07:39
sabdflhmm.. i wonder how hard a command line moin->ReST tool would be?07:39
mdzhornbeck: in what way?07:40
hornbeckmdz: I will address in a second07:40
mdzReST is crack07:40
makosabdfl: perhaps not trivial07:40
makomdz: i love ReST :)07:40
sabdflhornbeck: go ahead07:40
aswmdz: is crack good or bad? 07:40
elmoasw: drugs bad mmk07:40
hornbeckI really wish more doc guys could have been here, first of all07:40
=== sparkes sparkes is here, just
hornbeckgood to see you sparkes07:41
sabdflenrico_dinner: oh07:41
hornbecksabdfl: we seem to be in need of some guidence07:41
hornbeckeveryone on the list seems to be infighting about which way to push forward07:42
sabdflok, what options have been put out there?07:42
sparkesI don't think infighting is the right word but we do have several options out there at the moment07:42
hornbeckwell alot seem to want to go straight wiki for almost everything, while others wish to move alot off wiki07:42
hornbeckthat is one07:42
sparkeshornbeck, true07:43
hornbeckanother is whether or not to appoint a leadership role to push us in directions and to also talk between doc team and devs07:43
hornbeckthere seems to be one on one conversations between doc people and devs but it is not getting back to doc people07:43
hornbeckI think someone is needed to rally the doc people in a direction07:44
hornbeckI hope that is all right07:44
sparkesthere is also the issues of what licence is good for ubuntu and upstream07:44
aswI think forcing people to check two places the "real" FAQ (more nicely formatted) and the Wiki FAQ (more current) is a recipe for problems if not disaster. If ReST lets us maintain the FAQ in the Wiki I think that would be very, very nice.  But I don't know if it's practical.   07:45
sabdflthat's an easy one to solve07:45
sabdflthe faq's should go straight into the faq section07:45
sabdflit's designed for it07:45
hornbeckI really feel we need a leadership role in the doc team to over see what is happening and to stop arguements07:45
aswsabdfl: agreed. 07:45
sabdfland i've no problem with people putting new faq's straight in07:45
mdzI think they should be reviewed by the doc team07:45
mdzusing the facility provided by plone07:46
sabdflhornbeck: having an leader does not stop arguments07:46
aswmdz: does PLONE do revision control the doc team can check changes? Possibly ban users if they've been putting in Bogus answers to faqs?07:46
sabdflasw: no07:46
hornbeckbut that person can step in and push for a certain direction or have a final say, or take to CC and such07:46
sabdfli've had some one on one conversations with different doc team members07:47
aswbummer. revision control is that's what makes the moinmoin wiki stuff work.  07:47
sabdflenrico, hornbeck, sivang07:47
sabdflasw: there is a zope-based revision management07:47
sabdflbut i' not sure how usable it is07:47
mdzasw: plone provides a framework where people can write new entries and submit them for review07:48
mdzasw: and then they can be published when they have been reviewed07:48
aswsabdfl: yeah I haven't followed zope too closefly I know too many OpenACS/ACS guys... 07:48
makobut that's workflow management, not revision control07:48
mdzbut it is not as straightforward to manage changes to existing documents07:48
sabdflonce published, i think they can be edited and immediately published07:48
sabdfland we don't have revision control that's as effective from that point onwards07:49
sabdflwe could create a group of trusted users who can edit the site07:49
sabdfland let everyone else work in the wiki07:49
mdzbut zwiki has a basic revision control facility like moin's07:49
hornbecksabdfl: if not a leadership role a core type team of doc people who make choices07:49
aswsabdfl: so I just don't get it.  Why would you use a wiki that doesn't give you revision control (like wikipedia or moinmoin)07:49
mdzasw: the wiki does give you revision control07:49
sabdfli think it's worth trying to open up the site to the whole community to see what happens07:50
mdzbut the other parts of the site do not07:50
sabdflmdz: actually they do07:50
sabdflin the zope layer it stores every version of every object07:50
sabdflyou can pack the db, and lose those07:50
mdzok, not visiible in the ui presented to me07:50
sabdfland i think we will be doing that07:50
sabdfli'm just not sure that plone exports the revisions as something useable07:50
makosabdfl: AFAIK it does not07:51
aswmdz, sabdfl: so it's a matter of improving plone?  (that's do able I suppose...) 07:51
sabdflasw: not the optimal strategy07:52
mdzasw: it would also be workable to continue to use the wiki as a staging area07:52
sabdflplone is big and hairy and built on zope2, which is bigger and hairier07:52
mdzwith the entire doc team behind it, things could be edited and moved into the FAQ much more quickly07:52
sabdflzope3 is now out, which is not backwards compatible07:52
sabdflthe huge advantae of the new wiki is that the search will find data in the wiki07:52
sabdflas well as in the faq07:52
sabdflhornbeck: let's talk a bit further about leadership07:53
sabdflwho have been the main contributors so far?07:53
hornbecksabdfl: in wiki or overall?07:53
hornbecksabdfl: the most vocal are myself, sivang, plovs, and now sparkes07:54
sabdflok, what role has enrico played?07:54
hornbeckBenEdwards is doing good stuff 07:54
sparkessabdfl, Also Ben 07:54
hornbecksabdfl: enrico, has poped in once in awhile07:55
makoi've seen a bunch of enrico posts to the mailing list07:55
makowith a lot of good stuff i thought.. although they didn't get a lot of reponse07:55
hornbeckenrico, has posted four times on new list, with all very good ideas07:56
hornbeckhe does not seem to be very involved with everything though07:56
makohornbeck: and a bunch of times to -devel07:56
hornbeckmako: true07:56
sabdfli've discussed with enrico having a "secretary"07:57
sabdflfor the doc team07:57
sabdflsomeone to do 2-3 hours of work every day07:57
sabdflkeeping the team focused and momentum going07:57
makolike wiki gardening, etc?07:57
sabdflcleaning up the wiki etc07:57
hornbeckthat is what I am wanting to be in place07:57
sabdflhornbeck: is that what you are wanting to do?07:58
hornbecksabdfl: I would like to yes07:58
sabdflyou have certainly been very visible in your contribution07:59
sabdflwhat needs to be done on a regular basis?08:00
hornbeckfor starters we need to round up the docs that we want to make solid for Hoary08:00
hornbeckwe also need to keep track of wiki08:01
hornbeckneed to start setting up solid areas for people to work in, and getting certain doc writers doing certain docs08:01
=== enrico_dinner lands here
hornbeckwelcome back enrico08:01
enricocatching up08:01
sabdflhi enrico, do you have scrollback?08:01
hornbeckwe are all kinda out there right now08:02
hornbeckneed someone to keep people on those task and do it in a way that is encouraging to them and to keep them happy08:02
enricosabdfl: I do, I caught up08:02
hornbeckand to make sure are docs are able to go back upstream08:02
sabdfli definitely can see a role for a wiki gardener08:02
sabdfli can also see a role for a "core team" that is responsible for decisions on documentation08:03
sabdflhow can we best organise this?08:04
enricoI haven't been much active because I didn't know how much time I could commit from now on08:04
hornbeckI think a solid doc team is as important as a solid dev team, because people will always look toward the docs and without solid easy to read docs they are lost08:04
sabdflso far i've only heard from hornbeck08:04
enricoI don't like to take responsibility for things without knowing if I can commit to them08:04
enricosabdfl: heard about what?08:05
sabdflin this forum08:05
enricosivan was here, but it got too late and he needed to head home08:05
hornbecksabdfl: I think to organize this, we should at least set up a core team that can make decissions08:05
=== AberMatt [~cxv@clarlp1mrm04.clar.aber.ac.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
sabdflhere are the big questions08:06
hornbecksabdfl: we also could use someone who is always going to be reliable08:06
sabdfl - how should doc budget be spent08:06
hornbeckdoc budget?08:06
sabdfl - how should appointments to that core team be made08:06
sabdfl - do we need to appoint a specific team leader08:06
hornbeckI think yourself and main core team should appoint the doc core team08:06
sabdfl - do we in addition need a secretary, or should they be the same role08:06
enricoThere have been mails in the list that were cautious about having a team leader08:06
hornbeckwe have made ourselves known and they mostly know us by now08:07
sparkesenrico, I think people wanted to adapt a wait and see attitude while the team was small08:07
sabdflthat makes sense08:08
sabdflat the same time, this is largely volunteer effort08:08
enricoI once wrote that at the beginning, the Ubuntu Code of Conduct can be a good enough leader08:08
hornbecksparkes: we are growing real fast on the list and to many random ideas are being thrown without peoples saying, lets do this08:08
enricoBen today posted something ismilar08:08
sabdflso i don't think a leader is going to be able to direct effort so much as help to coordinate08:08
makosabdfl: yes08:08
hornbeckmaybe it sould be said coordinater instead of leader08:09
hornbeckseems the term leader is throughing people off08:09
enricohornbeck: we can see if just having a secretary that picks up and cleans the ideas thrown on the ground is enough for people to cherry pick them08:09
sparkeshornbeck, ;-)08:09
aswI'm listening.  Since I'm writing a book length project, and am (newly) maintaining some public faqs / communities ; I'm not sure what I have to contribute, yet. 08:09
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enricoAlthough someone that tells when something is ready for release, for example, may be needed08:09
sparkesenrico, that's probally a better idea for the short/medium term08:10
hornbecka secretary would be good08:10
hornbecksomeone who can step in and make decissions08:10
sabdfldocs are generally best owned by one person08:10
hornbeckthat is what I would like to see08:10
=== plovs just walked in
sabdfli mean "a document" not "all the docs"08:10
sabdflso  maybe we need to think of ledership of specific pieces of it08:11
hornbecksabdfl: the concensus is no on that point from the doc team08:11
sabdflfor example, one person who is master of the faq's08:11
sabdfland one person who takes a lead on the installer guide08:11
sparkessabdfl, this was brought up on the docs list before to a mixed responce08:11
hornbecksabdfl: people hated that idea on the doc list08:12
=== sparkes believed docs should have maintainers
sparkes;-) just to disagree with hornbeck again and make it look like we never aggree in public ;-)08:12
enricoIt also depends on how the work is made08:12
sabdflhornbeck: consensus?08:13
aswI think that doc maintainers and over-all project leaders can be complementary'08:13
enricoIf things are "let's throw in", then nothing is needed08:13
enricoThen, we should see if it leads to enough quality08:13
hornbecksabdfl: agreement08:13
enricowell, IMO a good piece of documentation needs a bit of planning, like identify a target, describing it throughly, stating a goal08:13
sabdfli don't think that a doc maintainer means "this is my island get off it"08:13
sabdfli just think that a body of work like that needs a certain amount of consistent care08:14
enricoAnd before release, there's a need for some quality assessment, and someone that says "ehy, this is good!  Let's check the commas and release it"08:14
sabdfland that while everyone whould be free to contribute08:14
sabdflit's still good to be able to say "xyz is our faq-master"08:14
sparkessabdfl, agreed08:14
enricoBut we can apply the "YouAintNeedingItYet" pattern and defer until such problems happen08:14
sabdflok, let's start with this:08:15
enrico(one point in which to introduce quality control is when one says what goes into Hoary, and that has a release deadline as well)08:15
sabdflthe initial doc team is hornbeck, sparkes, plovs, enrico, ben, asw08:15
sabdflHenri1: would you  be interested in keeping an eye on docs from aa11y point of view?08:16
makodid sivang have a hand in it?08:16
enricosabdfl: sivan?08:16
sabdflsivang too, didn't mean to leave anyone off who's contributed08:16
enrico"aa11y" ?08:16
sabdfli will ask enrico to act as a secretary for the next few months while the team settles down08:16
=== enrico puts on the wiki gardener hat
sabdfli'd like you each to find an area that you particularly care about and make that your showcase08:17
=== sparkes hands over the wiki gardner gloves
Henri1I guess I can just try to feed them aa11y stuff; or do you mean to look at all the docs from an accessibility point of view?08:17
sabdfli'd like this team to come back to the next cc meeting with a list of doc priorities that we should publish for new people who come along and want to help with docs08:17
enricosparkes: you're welcome to continue gardening08:17
sabdflHenri1: contribute as you see fit, low hanging fruit first08:18
enricoah!  Accessibility!08:18
sparkesenrico, no these are bespoke secretary gloves I had hand made for the chief gardner ;-)08:18
sabdflgardening is much more fun in teams08:18
enricosparkes: Wow!08:18
aswhornbeck has suggested a "Learning Ubuntu" O'Reilly style book. If it's an updated version of: http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/debian/chapter/book/  With an equally liberal license I would be an eager participant. It might also be nice if we take care to mark the differences with Debian so that a debian user coiuld use the book too.  but that might be awkward.  08:18
plovssabdfl, can somebody from upstream make a list of what they would like to see? Or it's just us?08:18
sabdflhornbeck: great idea08:19
sparkesI would have prefered to use the debian user guide (progeny) but the concenus seems to be against taht one08:19
aswhorbeck: did I get your suggestion right? (you suggested Learning Redhat Linux as example I think.)08:19
sabdflyou guys need to discuss it amongst yourselves and come up with the list08:19
sabdfli can add some layering of priorities08:20
sabdflbut don't want to issue the list08:20
hornbeckasw: yes08:20
hornbecksabdfl: thanks08:20
sabdfli'm just very grateful for your contribution, and my role here is to try to help you feel like your contribution is most effective08:20
=== mako nods
aswsparkes: if it's under a liberal license then we should build on it. (re debian user guide) I don't see why it would harm us to build and improve on what exists! 08:21
sabdfli'm happy to use the most liberal licence o'reilly will go with, which makes the content available for debian, but don't want you to do extra work on that account08:21
sparkesasw, it's gpl08:21
=== enrico loves GPL documentation
hornbecksparkes: we would have to rework that whole doc08:22
plovsunder what license is the wiki?08:22
hornbecksparkes: it would be easier to make that a different project08:22
enricoplovs: good question: it should be made explicit08:22
sparkesok, hornbeck 08:22
aswsabdfl. at least one of my acquaintances published with oreilly. I can talk with them but I don't want to step on anyones toes.  This is hornbeck's idea. 08:22
sparkesplovs, this is something we need to sort out to stop probs later08:22
hornbeckasw: find out as much as you can about what we need to do08:22
=== sparkes has an orielly published freind too
hornbeckI am willing to get as much help as I can08:23
=== enrico would also like to have a 'documentation' metapackage in the BTS
=== hornbeck will have final edit though :-p
plovsdo we have an ata for the new wiki? 08:23
enricoNow that I have the secretary gloves, I can take care of it08:23
hornbeckenrico: I agree08:23
hornbeckenrico: can you get me some coffee ? :-)08:24
=== enrico hands hornbeck some dark italian coffee
hornbeckyou will be good at this job enrico08:24
=== enrico hugs hornbeck
sabdfleasy guys08:24
hornbecknice, I like a secretary who's "hands on"08:24
=== asw oh boy...
sabdflhere we go08:25
enricoOk, two things I'm taking care of: wiki license and documentation metapackage08:25
sparkeshornbeck, you don't want another human theme on our hands08:25
sabdflalright, that's me done here. let's review in a few months08:25
enrico...and hornback, of course ;)08:25
enricoehm, hornbeck, sorry08:25
sabdflworse and worse08:25
sabdflwhat have i done08:26
sabdflanyhow, workrave is screaming at me now08:26
hornbeckcreated a monster08:26
plovsnerds and secretaries don't mix08:26
sparkesplovs, they do here ;-)08:26
makook, i want to know if its possible to split the internal documentaiton issues and the stuff that the cc need sto do08:26
sabdflgo to it and enjoy08:26
sabdfland thanks again08:26
sabdfla big measure of your success will be the extent to which you can bring more guys into the team08:26
=== mako nods
sabdflcheers guys08:27
enricosabdfl: bye!08:27
sparkesthanks all08:27
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hornbeckdoc guys I will do a write up for the mailing list and send in alittle while08:29
enricohornbeck: mako's making a summary08:29
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hornbeckenrico: thats cool than08:30
sparkesafk bbl08:30
enricoI'll cut from mako's summary and post in the list08:30
hornbeckenrico: sounds good08:30
hornbeckI am back off to work, I snuck out to be here08:30
=== enrico skuck out of dinner
plovshornbeck, thanks08:31
hornbeckplovs: no problem08:31
plovsbtw just got a mail that we will have a lot of cleaning up to do after the wiki 'upgrade'08:32
hornbeckyes we will08:32
plovsthe guy resposible is stevea  and he lives in #zwiki08:33
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Henri1I guess that's the end of the meeting. We still didn't officially discuss setting up an Accessibility team.08:34
aswHenril: as in section 508?08:36
KamionHenri1: hm, that was confusingly put on the agenda for the previous meeting?08:36
Henri1It was skipped then as well, due to the release08:37
olafuraI watched a talk on the net about NX at the KDE conferece. They talked about it's itegration into KDE development. This brings an interesting option for Ubuntu. Because you support a release for 18 months and your developement model is supposed to be distribued.08:37
KamionHenri1: please make sure it's actually on the agenda for next meeting so that we remember it08:38
Kamionsabdfl's gone so I don't think we can do it now08:38
Henri1Right, OK. I've got to get with the procedures :)  It was on the agenda a few days ago, before it got restructured08:39
Henri1Anyway, no rush08:39
olafuraHoary has a possible goal to have an NX support. But would it also be smart to have a machine to test things for those less adventures.08:39
enricoWho was the bugzilla guy again?08:40
=== enrico wants to request the "documentation" metapackage
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Henri1I guess it needs CC approval to actually become a team, but there seems consensus that we want one.08:40
KamionHenri1: ah, whoops08:40
KamionHenri1: it doesn't need CC approval to start getting the people together and work out what you want to do08:40
Henri1Heh, no worries :)08:40
KamionHenri1: if anything, it's better to have that in place early08:40
Kamionenrico: file a bug on Websites/Bugzilla08:41
Henri1Righ, and were doing that, so no problem#08:41
enricoKamion: thanks08:41
KamionHenri1: ok, good; if we're really blocking you, a special meeting may be possible, but I hope we're not08:41
Henri1No, it was actually Luke who wondered why we weren't listed on the main Ubuntu page as a team08:42
Henri1The reason is of course that it needs CC approval first, but again, no rush08:43
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KragenSitakeris there a way to find out when these meetings are scheduled more than a day in advance?09:01
KamionCC/TB meetings are alternate Tuesdays, but subscribe to the agenda wiki page09:02
KragenSitakerthank you!09:03
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