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sparkes_xwon't be here for start of doc meeting12:37
sparkes_xI am logging12:37
sparkes_xafk bbl12:37
sivangsparkes_x : why x ? :)12:42
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sparkesis this better?12:43
sparkes_xlot's of lag on my other client this direct one seems best today12:43
sparkes_xbbl really late now ;-)12:43
sivanghow late is it for you?12:45
sparkes_xit's almost midday ;-) but I have to be elsewhere for the next hour or so12:46
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sivanghad to crash x,01:02
sivangtried to use nvtv to attend meeting through TV01:02
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:sivang] : Documentation Team Meeting, 2004-11-04 13:00UTC
sivangdoes anybody knows of other people who might be on their way to attend this?01:04
sivanghmm, not much of reaction..is there anybody here alive?01:06
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sivangeach person who's alive here, please say "beep" :)01:08
sivangok, let's try and start - see how long can I talk to myself :)01:09
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:sivang] : Documentation Team Meeting, 2004-11-04 13:00UTC, agenda at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeeting
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:sivang] : Documentation Team Meeting, 2004-11-04 13:00UTC, agenda at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeeting | Seems everybody asleep here or out, I'll be ideling here a bit - msg me (sivang) if you got here and interested in doc issues.
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:sivang] : Documentation Team Meeting, 2004-11-04 13:00UTC, agenda at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeeting | Seems everybody asleep here or out, I'll be ideling here a bit - msg me (sivang) if you got here and interested in doc issues | as soon as enough people arrive, we'll start
=== hornbeck is here
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:sivang] : Documentation Team Meeting, 2004-11-04 13:00UTC, agenda at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeeting
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=== asw is here
sivangyo asw!01:50
aswnot too much. I'd like to see if I can make the community meeting in Barcelona.  Anybody else from the Doc team going to be there?01:50
sivangI would love to be there, not sure if I could manage to though.01:52
hornbeckhey no talking01:54
aswI seem to have taken the unlikely role of Free Software zealot in the group but I do find it slightly grating that we don't uniformly follow the Debian/FSF policy of referring to this O/S as either "Ubuntu" full-stop or "Ubuntu GNU/Linux".  I have the irrational desire to go and change every URL that has http://www.ubuntulinux.org to be http://www.ubuntu.com01:54
hornbeckalot of the url's don't seems to work with just www.ubuntu.com01:55
=== asw reads meeting agenda
Kamionubuntulinux.org was an unfortunate consequence of domain handling politics01:56
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Kamionapart from the domain, I believe that we consistently refer to ourselves as simply "Ubuntu". If you find exceptions, please correct them.01:56
aswhornbeck: can you give an example? Re. broken ubuntu.com links?  There should be a standard procedure for filing doc/wiki bugreports (if there isn't already.) 01:57
sivangKamion : we can make some clarification so to note our gratitude to GNU , what do you think?01:57
hornbeckasw: I have not tried them in awhile but for the longest alot of the wiki pages did not work01:58
aswKamion: I had been told the same thing by Mako. I'm perfectly happy with the idea of the "Ubuntu O/S" full stop. 01:58
=== sivang hails for Ubuntu GNU/Linux
Kamionwe standardised on simply "Ubuntu" to avoid the whole debate.02:00
sivangok, that's fine altogether. In docs and referneces we can just say "Ubuntu is a Debian GNU/Linux system, ..." for the record02:01
Kamionit's not02:01
sivangit's not ?02:01
Kamionit's a derivative of Debian GNU/Linux; it's not a Debian GNU/Linux system02:01
hornbecknice beagle pics up the mozilla extentions now02:02
sivangoops, yes I menat a based02:02
aswin particular, hornbeck's proposed book should either be "Learning the Ubuntu Operating System" or "Learning Ubuntu GNU/Linux" but -not- "Learning Ubuntu Linux" as it is currently called.  I don't want to tell other people what to name their work, so, I find the whole thing very awkward.  Kamion: yes standardize on Ubuntu (operating sytem) full-stop.  Does that sound good to everybody else?02:02
sivangasw : it pretty good to me.02:03
sivangshall we start?02:03
sivangHas everybody glanced at the agenda?02:03
hornbeckis sparkes here?02:03
sivanghmm good point02:03
sivanglet's see02:03
sivangif no one objects, I don't mind waiting 10 more minutes before we start..:) so maybe every interested party would get the chance02:04
=== George^Deka [~George_De@046.a.009.mel.iprimus.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
George^Dekahi all02:05
hornbeckyes sivang I think we need to wait a few for people strolling in02:05
sivangyes I see now02:06
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sivanghey plovs!02:07
hornbeckyou know its amazing how in a chat you act so excited about seeing another grown man02:07
hornbecklets retract a couple of the !!! from that02:08
sivanghi lulu, good to see you here :)02:08
luluHi all! Great to see such a turnout - sorry I'm late - been working with plovs02:08
plovs_workhi guys!02:09
sivangno it's ok, we're still waiting a bunch for people strolling in...02:09
hornbeckI think we are pretty good now02:09
lulusivang: is it a standup meeting? I may be a bit behind on email - do we have an agenda and a time limit?02:10
sivanglulu : I've yet to think of a time limit, but the agenda is linked from the topic02:10
plovs_workmy time-limit 45 minutes, i have a meeting afterwards02:10
luluahh - there it is - thanks :o)02:10
hornbeckI work in about a hour02:11
=== asw has to leave in an hour also...
plovs_workwho makes a backup of this whole thing and sends it to enrico?02:11
aswi can do that gladly. 02:11
luluasw:thank you!02:12
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hornbecksivang: want to start02:12
plovs_workso, shall we go from top to bottom then on the http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeeting ?02:12
sivangyo enrico my man!02:12
=== enrico managed to participate
enricoHello all!02:13
sivangthank you enrico for managin this,02:13
plovs_workthe man himself!02:13
luluhey enrico!  will you chair the meeting then?02:13
=== sivang nods
sivangenrico : ?02:13
enricolulu: I can do it, not sure for how much, but I'm confident I can spend at least an hour here02:13
enricoI'm loading galeon and getting to the docmeeteing page02:14
aswenrico: seems that others have to go in an hour too. hornbeck, plovs... 02:14
enricosivang: a web browser02:14
sivangit's oldie , isn't it?02:14
sivangthat's why the ???02:15
luluguys....... :o) shall we begin!?02:15
enricoLet's begin!02:15
enricoWho's there?02:15
enrico * Enrico02:16
sivang* Sivan02:16
asw* asw02:16
hornbeck* hornbeck02:16
lulu* lulu02:16
ChrisH* ChrisH02:16
George^Deka* George^Deka02:16
sivangwe have several new people here, I would like them to shortly introduce themselves 02:16
=== plovs_work as well
=== sivang notes that the meeting seems to go right as planned :)
=== enrico looks at the agenda, it's huge!
enricoLet's begin from the beginning: state of the documentation team02:17
enricowho's who and who does what02:17
hornbeckcan I start?02:18
=== enrico salutes all the new members
enricohornbeck: sure, please02:18
hornbeckI am setting up a svn server for the doc team02:19
hornbeckit will be active the beginning of next week and be hosted out of my home02:19
hornbeckI have not done much doc work because I have been learning how to set this all up :-)02:19
hornbeckI will be giving ssh accounts to certain doc members so if you would like to be on the list please contact me02:20
aswhornbeck svn? 02:20
enricoasw: subversion02:20
luluhornbeck: Rationale for setup?02:20
hornbecklulu: Ubuntu dev's would not give us room to work on large files02:21
=== sparkes_x is back
hornbeckso I bought a bigger line into the house and some static ip's02:21
sparkes_xhow far down the agenda are we?02:21
sivangnot started02:21
hornbecksparkes just started02:21
enricoasw: a version control system like CVS and Arch  (if you ignore the authors of cvs, svn and arch telling you that they're all so extremely and fundamentally different ;)02:21
sivangyou didn't miss a thing02:21
aswum. I, personally, use GNU Arch.  Canonical is also investing heavily in Arch (see Bazar).  02:21
hornbeckif we do not like svn, we can try something else02:21
luluhornbeck: i.e. working on books? who did you ask?02:22
=== ChrisH loves svn
enricolulu: mdz02:22
sparkes_xI love svn but arch sounds, errrm interesting02:22
hornbecklulu: mdz02:22
=== plovs_work looks amazed at all the amart people
luluok - right.....02:22
sivangI think we might altogether switch to Bazzar, might also help canonical in testing and patches02:22
aswSee http://www.canonical.com/projects/ 02:22
lulusivang: that is what I'd like to suggest - Robert Collins would help you hornbeck02:22
hornbeckis that what everyone wants?02:23
hornbeckto use arch and bazar when it is ready?02:23
sivangplus it would make merging the repo into canonical, once this is approved by upranks02:23
sparkes_xRCollins help hornbeck with what?02:23
=== sparkes_x still catching up
sparkes_xsivang, agreed02:23
lulusparkes_x: getting bazaar set up02:23
hornbecklulu: I was with the understanding that arch required more than one webserver02:24
sparkes_xlulu, ta, makes sence now02:24
sivangcan we continue with agenda, and discuss technicalities at the end maybe?02:24
enricosivang: I agree02:24
luluhornbeck: ok - shall we say - Action point - contact Rob Collins re: requirements and present pros and cons of options to the team??02:25
enricoLet's compress this in Hornbeck is working on setting up a VCS for the docteam to use for larger documents02:25
hornbeckenrico: yes02:25
enricoEnrico is happy to help hornbeck02:25
sivangLet have some more team memebers tell whay they are up into currently, so to finish status item :)02:25
enricoI can talk about me02:26
sivangok, as we have several new people here that would be good they know who you are :) go ahead02:26
enricoI'm currently half-available, in Brasil for a conference02:26
aswlulu, hornbeck: I'm setting up Arch for my own project, please, use me as a resource as well.  02:26
enricoI've been appointed at the documentation team secretary and I'm now working on setting up my position on this and to learn how to interact with Canonical02:27
sivangenrico is going to be the person to complain too :)02:27
enricoIn the EnricoZini wiki page you can find a list of advertised services from the secretary :)02:28
sivangok, I'll go next ? 02:28
enricoI think that's it.  Questions welcome anytime02:28
plovs_worki have been cleaning up the wiki, adding some icons and looking at the FrontPage02:29
=== sparkes_x needs to talk about icons later don't let me forget
=== lulu Lulu is responsible for the Canonical and Ubuntu websites and making sure our Community's needs are met by the site and the wiki. Also - have been working with plovs on the APFrontPage
sivangMy name is Sivan Green, I started working on the wiki some time ago, and a list of my current activies can be found at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamCurrentWork02:30
enricolulu: do you mean that I've finally found the person to ask things for when I want to interact with Canonical?02:31
sparkes_xI am Steve Parkes and I am writing a different book based on the current upstream docs, cos I am a free software zealot too ;-)02:31
luluenrico: fire away!  - All -  Please do not hesitate to be in touch and if I can help you I will.02:31
=== enrico hugs lulu
sivangCurrently paying special attention to new people who join us, as well as well as devising a more formal plan / page for that matter.02:32
sivanganyone else?02:33
George^DekaI am George Dekavalas, currently doing nothing been thinking about making the plunge into contributing back and tonight is just the start of it.02:33
sparkes_xnice one George^Deka ;-) welcome aboard02:33
=== ChrisH 's real name is Christoph Haas. I'm new to the devel side of Ubuntu. Sent an introduction to ubuntu-devel@ yesterday. I've been maintaining Debian projects like mentors.debian.net before and want to check if there is work for me here. :)
aswI am Alexander (Sasha) Wait.  Recently self-apointed free software zealot.  Willing test-subject for community procedures and evangelist for the use of the Ubuntu O/S in science.  I also run an ALife group in Boston and am the new maintainer of the REC.GAMES.COREWAR FAQ. 02:33
enricoWe should have an introduction of everyone now02:34
luluwhat a team :o)02:34
sivangyes, I see some more people here, who hadn02:34
sivangn't introduced themselves, for sake of new comers I propose they do :)02:35
enricoDo people know of other active people who are not present here or written in the list?02:35
hornbeckBen Edwards dropped out02:35
sivangwhat do you mean dropped out?02:35
hornbeckhe is no longer on the doc team02:36
luluDo you know why?02:36
sivangsince when?02:36
sivangWas he mailing the list?02:36
hornbecklulu: yes, but he asked me not to say02:36
hornbeckhe was here first ,meeting and mailing list02:36
luluhornbeck: oh dear. Sorry to hear that. Is there anything we can do to encourage his return?02:37
hornbecklulu: I tried he said he was not interested in being a part anymore02:37
plovs_worki wrote to him, not for now he said02:37
hornbeckok, lets try to speed up if we can :-)02:37
=== asw has another meeting. (Thought it was later.) I'll log and see you all later!
hornbeckasw: farwell02:38
sivangbye asw02:38
enricoasw: bye02:38
plovs_workasw: see ya!02:38
George^Dekaasw: cya02:38
enricoLet's move on.  I was thinking about asking people a list of wiki pages they maintain, but it would take time.  Could everyone just list them in their wiki homepages?02:39
=== plovs_work almost unnoticed looks at his watch 20 minutes left
luluenrico: tools we are currently using?02:39
enricoI know of Wiki and the upcoming version control system for large docs.  And the mailing list.02:39
hornbeckenrico: agreed, those are the only ones right now02:40
luluok - have we got a final decision on the wiki markup language and for the website?02:40
lulufor the record?02:40
enricoWe don't have a specific IRC channel, and I don't usually see IRC chats about the doc team: are there some happening?02:40
sivanglulu : I thought we would leave how it's now - everybody can choose whatever he likes 02:41
enricolulu: there was the idea of distinguishing between different stages of documents02:41
hornbeckirc is happening in -devel02:41
hornbecklulu: I use ReST and moin02:41
sivanglulu : I've seen you can choose what format of markup to save02:41
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enricohornbeck: thanks.  For the records, there's a lot of traffic in -devel and I don't follow it, so if you see me in and need me, just say my name and I'll see a notice02:41
hornbeckenrico: I normally PM you02:42
plovs_work#ubuntu-doc would not be bad02:42
luluok - perhaps we should have one we recommend - so we can get consistency?02:42
sivanglet's agree for #ubuntu-doc for all our docdevel discussions, it's been great in serving us till now02:43
plovs_worksomebody has to find out about channelownership etc02:43
George^Dekawell in terms of markup to use what do people consider the best to us, for someone who has not edited a wiki before (no tendencies to one or other)02:43
enrico[format]  this idea that was around in the list was to use the easiest markup (Moin) for things everyone scraps on, since it has a very low barrier of entry.  Then, if things evolve and need more structure and the people in the page want, it can be refactored in ReST02:43
enricoThen eventually it can become a DocBook work if it grows up even more and the team of people that work on it feel like02:43
plovs_workenrico, agreed, moin is easy but broken in zwiki, ReST is difficult but (more) complete02:43
sparkes_xenrico, the other parts of the site don't support moin so moving to /docs would require new markup02:43
enrico(from this recap I'm writing, I see a pattern emerging: "the people active on the page are the ones that decide" :)02:44
sparkes_xenrico, that seemst o be the case02:44
sivangI think we should be focusing on MoinMoin, really use the wiki is the scrap & sketch area. 02:44
luluI had never edited a wiki before joining Canonical - moinmoin was very easy to learn. an should be fully supported by the ZWiki now....02:44
sivangoffline, full fledged stable docs should be docbook02:45
enrico[wiki]  we seem to have an agreement.02:45
sparkes_xsivang, agreed02:45
enricoCurrent wiki issues:02:45
hornbecksivang: yes, docbook is a must offline02:45
enrico * speed (they're working on it, but nothing short term will happen)02:45
enrico * things lacking from Moin (I see TableOfContents often mentioned), is there other things?02:45
sivangso we've heared from lulu :-) thanks for your support though02:45
enricosivang: yes, I was recapping lulu message: lulu, sorry for missing the attribution02:46
enrico * license of wiki contents02:46
=== plovs_work applauds docbook
hornbecksivang: I really like ReST on the wiki02:46
sivangGPL! GPL! GPL! :)02:46
sparkes_xenrico, gpl 02:46
=== ChrisH doubts a little that Wiki is really useful for more complex documents
sparkes_xgpl is the best option for upstream02:47
=== sivang agrees with ChrisH
=== enrico is for GPL as well
hornbeckChrisH agreed02:47
sparkes_xChrisH, true02:47
=== ChrisH raises his hand for Docbook-XML
sparkes_xChrisH, seconded ;-)02:47
hornbeckdocbook is for offline docs02:48
hornbeckwe have agreed on that02:48
enricolulu: jdub told me there was some offline discussion about wiki content license, but I never heard of outcomes02:48
=== plovs_work agrees
ChrisHhornbeck: It can be easily used to create online docs, too.02:48
=== sivang agrees with ChrisH
hornbeckChrisH please send a link02:48
enricolulu: I tried asking twice in the warthogs list but I got no answer02:48
sparkes_xChrisH, don't offend the wiki fans ;-)02:48
luluenrico: Not sure of that myself - I am willing to find out - put e down for that action point.02:48
enricolulu: do you know of anything?02:48
=== hornbeck is not really a wiki fan
luluand I'll get back to you all02:48
enricolulu: ok.  Here we have an agreement on GPL02:48
luluenrico: ok02:49
enricolulu: if it's ok for them as well, we can proceed and put an explicit notice in the wiki02:49
George^DekaI am sure i read somewhere that someone had an issue on using the GPL for docs, but im fine with it02:49
ChrisHhornbeck: http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/ and http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/02:49
luluenrico: I'd like to have a word with SABDFL on that issue ok?02:49
=== ChrisH can help with providing Docbook-XML templates and Makefiles
hornbeckChrisH: thank you02:49
enricoIt's important that there are no licensing issues in the wiki, or it would be a big problem when taking things from there into bigger doucments02:49
sivangGeorge^Deka : that was for GFDL02:50
enricolulu: ok.  I tried already to talk with sabdfl about it, but with little success.  I hope you're more lucky02:50
enricoWe're getting to the end of the wiki discussion.  Someone has some missing feature to report?02:50
luluenrico: let's put a wiki page up of what the argument is and concerns raised and I will get a decision ok!?02:50
sparkes_xwe also need to take into account some parts of the wiki may be imported from elsewhere and have different licences02:51
George^Dekasivang: maybe but could have sworn there was also an issue with GPL, because i knew there was the issues with GFDL (non-DFSG)02:51
enricolulu: ok.  my original mail on warthogs can be used as base contents for the page02:51
lulusparkes_x: exactly. 02:51
sivangGeorge^Deka : would you like to investiage and tell me your conclusions? this might be interesting.02:51
enricolulu: I can take care of creating the page02:51
luluenrico: good. Time is running short - let's move on.02:52
sivangwhat page are we talking about?02:52
enricosivang: a recap on the licensing issue02:52
George^Dekai will try, now trying to remeber where i saw it (me thinks it was ubuntu related or debian weekly news)02:52
enricoNext point is: how to approach new members02:52
=== enrico hugs new members
=== sivang hugs them also
lulusivang: is there an ETA for a draft of the Initiation process so we can contribute wehn it's up there?02:53
George^Dekawell as far as i can tell as being new for like 8 hours now, having people actually respond to your emails of help helps02:53
sivanglulu : I will have one by tommorow02:53
lulusivang: awesome!02:53
sivangI would like to see we streamline the way we approach our new comers,02:54
George^Dekai have had the issue with moz that they are all two busy to get back to you on if they want your help or not02:54
hornbeckGeorge same with mono-doc02:54
hornbecknoone wants to help you02:54
sivangtogether with a planned new comers TODO list, learning resources etc.02:54
enricoI propose to have a DocTeam Dogma02:54
enrico1) All help mails should be answered02:54
George^Dekalulu: brillant - can you mail the link cause i might forget otherwise - good place for me to learn02:54
sivangbottom line, when someone approaches us and says "I wanna help"02:55
sivanghe should be able to do so in matter of days, no better ! in matter of hours...:)02:55
enrico2) RTFM is not an answer, unless it's nicely put and with a working link to the documentation02:55
luluGeorge^Deka: which link?02:55
=== sivang HAILS enrico
hornbeckI am sorry everyone for my RTFM reply02:55
George^Dekalulu: initiation process02:55
enricohornbeck: Don't worry: it happens02:55
enricohornbeck: there are habits we all carry from other communities02:56
sivangno it's ok, We love you John Hornbeck :)02:56
=== lulu points to sivang!
sladenhornbeck: ''do this and this and this.  A more detailed overview can be found at <link>''02:56
hornbeckyes, I know02:56
lulusivang: could u let the list know where the initiation doc is once it's up there?02:56
sivangI would like us to see take up on the spirit of #gnome-love02:56
sivanglulu : ofcourse,02:56
sivangI would send the link to ML02:56
George^Dekaenrico: RTFM ?02:57
hornbeckread the f**ing manual02:57
enricoGeorge^Deka: Read The Fine Manual02:57
hornbeckenrico is being nice02:57
enricohornbeck: it's an acronym which has two expansions: one for the writer and one for the reader :)02:57
George^Dekai should have known - it is 1am here02:57
enricoAbout always responding to help messages, we have a deadlock problem02:58
enricoMany help request don't get answered because everyone thinks someone else will answer02:58
hornbeckeveryone should answer if they see it first02:58
hornbeckif you see it reply02:58
sivangyes that is important02:58
sivangso new people wouldn't get the feeling it02:59
sivangno alie02:59
luluenrico: good point to have one person who is ultimately responsible? - sivang - do you want to answer these?02:59
enricohornbeck: good.  third dogma02:59
sivang(i can't type today, or anyday)02:59
enrico 3) If you see it, reply02:59
George^DekaAs far as i am concerned the more replies the better, it makes you feel really wanted and that people are there to help you out.02:59
sivanglulu : I will02:59
plovs_worknew people should go to the mailing-list or #ubuntu-doc02:59
enricoGeorge^Deka: very good point!02:59
plovs_workwe should be nice and then point them there03:00
enricoGeorge^Deka: usually one thinks duplicate replies should be avoided because they generate unnecessary traffic, but this is an artefact from when we had 9.6Kbps modems.  We should get past it!03:00
George^Dekaone issue i did have today was there is no link from ubuntu mail-list page to the -doc ML - had to find it in a post from -users03:00
sladenplovs_work: would inviting people to #ubuntu-help be more useful than clouding your documentation-discussion channel?03:00
=== enrico thanks George^Deka for enlightening him
enricoDogma 403:00
luluGeorge^Deka: yes - but we need to have someone ultimately responsible. 03:00
enrico 4) Don't worry about duplicate replies03:01
George^Dekaenrico: well thats what newbies are for03:01
luluI am responsible for answering the info and webmaster emails and that has been a comment from most people - we always get back to people and it's a highlight for us - I think it's very important to be a responsive distro.03:01
plovs_worksladen, if they want help with doc-stuff they are welcome, not for general help03:01
sladenplovs_work: nod, sorry, missed that bit03:01
George^Dekalulu: but it took me a while to get to it so i could even join, if i wasn't persitant enough to find the archives i would have not been here tonight cause i didnt know it was happening03:01
enricoGeorge^Deka: please if you see 03:02
plovs_workwe need one person who is responsible for those kind of things, helping newbies, newbie-docs etc03:02
enricoGeorge^Deka: please if you see other issues like that, write a mail to the list: you're raising very valuable issues we were not able to see03:02
enricoplovs_work: sivan offered, if I'm not mistaken03:03
George^Dekaenrico: sure will thought i would bring it here if i could anyway, another issue i had to guess it was on freenode03:03
sivangI think having a dedicated person for this task would be great, I am willing to voulenteer for that, but even so having other community memebers responsible for that would make a nice redundency in case I can't make it once in a while.03:03
plovs_workenrico, thanks03:03
luluGeorge^Deka: good point  and sivan: thanks - I think that's a good call.03:03
enricosivang: yes, there could be a welcome team03:03
plovs_worksivang, you'll do fine03:03
enricoI'm happy to be in the welcome team03:04
enricoWelcome team: sivang, enrico03:04
luludone! What's next?03:04
enricoNext point: offline documentation03:04
hornbeckyes, I was about to type that03:04
enricoDo we agree on docbook?  Yes.03:04
enricoNext point:03:04
hornbeckwe HAVE to start writing this stuff03:05
hornbeckand decideing what is being brought over from debian03:05
hornbeckand gnome03:05
sivangI would  like to see one goal we set up -03:05
enricoConversion strategies between different formats: should we discuss it now or just tackle it when the problem shows up?03:05
enricoI propose to use the ancient philosophy "first get to do it, then document it, then automate it"03:06
sivangI am ok with postponing it for when the problem shows up03:06
George^Dekaor leave it to next meeting03:06
sivangyes it would be wise :) I wonder what brought me to put it htere in the first place...03:06
=== sivang ducks
enricoNext point, then03:06
enricoLicense (again)03:06
sivangGPL! GPL! GPL! :)03:06
enricoI would #include <what said before>03:06
hornbeckare we going to fix debian docs?03:07
hornbeckI am now on the debian-doc list and they are very outdated03:07
enricoDo we need licensing differences between wiki and docbook documents?03:07
sivangI don't think so03:07
luluhornbeck: and make them ubuntu-docs?03:07
plovs_workwe need a page, stating what docbook docs we need, i for one have no idea03:07
hornbecklulu: yes03:07
luluhornbeck: I like your thinking :o)03:07
hornbeckI really would like to see alot of offline stuff for hoary03:08
hornbeckI like the wiki but it is not a solid doc base03:08
sivangI would like to raise up one goal for hoary, to pollish up already exisitng docs and especilly improving GNOME docs to include Ubuntu's quircks and differences from stock03:08
=== sparkes_x notices synagy at work when someone quotes http://www.paul.sladen.org/pronunciation/ in a mailing list message just as sladen was offering advice in here ;-)
lulusivang: add it to the wiki under HoaryHedgehog03:08
George^DekaI was thinking about it today, we need the wiki offline so it can just be used as help, with all the FAQ's etc i have been seeing around03:08
hornbeckgnome2-user-doc will be the first thing in the new server03:09
=== sparkes_x I am fixing debian docs
sivanglulu : ok, I will03:09
George^DekaSo it might be a case of converting it (wiki) to docbook03:09
enricoIf we get really good, we could do like de devels do with code: make patches and apply them to future versions of documents03:09
sivangthis is what I have in mind03:09
sparkes_xwtf I thought I was the only person who cared about debian-docs ;-)03:09
enricoBut we can thing about that when we get really good03:09
luluGeorge^Deka: we have a Help Centre in Plone, called Documentation, where we are hoping all FAQs, HowTos and books will sit.03:10
hornbeckenrico: I have already begun talking to debian-doc guys about how I submit patches03:10
sivanglulu : I would like also to have some of it compiled and to be installed in an ubuntusystem out the box, and be browseable through yelp03:10
George^Dekalulu: granted, i still havent kicked debian and kde off this box yet. It will happen soon though03:10
sivanglulu : that is the markup that is used for that section on the main site?03:11
enricohornbeck: cool!!03:11
lulusivang: we have a mix of html and structured text currently03:11
enricohornbeck: you mean we could team up with debian doc guys?  That would be AWESOME!  (or OUTSTANDING for the brits)03:11
sparkes_xyou lot are taking the piss now ;-) when I suggested debian docs everyone barfed03:11
lulusivang: I think structured text is easier for most pepes and will need help converting all pages to it.03:11
=== sivang finally starts to see that his wish to feed debian back comes to a reality
hornbeckenrico: I posted to their list about helping, they were very happy to have me03:11
hornbecksparkes_x: You are not sexy like me so noone listens :-p03:12
enricohornbeck: you made by day!03:12
sivangChrisH : now here a team of debian who accepts new blood :)03:12
enricohornbeck: you made my day!03:12
sparkes_xbollocks to this03:12
sparkes_xyou lot say one thing and mean another03:12
sparkes_xwe argued about debian docs for a week and everyone was against the idea03:13
hornbecksparkes: I hope you are joking03:13
enricosparkes_x: I wasn't03:13
sparkes_xand now everyone is for the idea03:13
sparkes_xenrico, true03:13
sivanglulu : yelp eats DocBook XML, so I guess we might use the conversion script and see what results we can have in yelp03:13
sparkes_xbut everyone else (mostly) was03:13
hornbeckI don't remember being against debian-docs03:13
hornbeckI may have been03:13
hornbeckwho knows03:13
sivangI surely wasn't against it03:13
sparkes_xhornbeck, you where ;-)03:13
hornbeckwell you made me see the light :-)03:14
sivangwell, it's all evident on the mailing list archive03:14
sivangif anyone cares to proove that, but we're not debian kiddies are we?03:14
lulusivang: ok - good. I am looking into Plone ATContentTypes and lingua plone for the site so we can deal with translations - it's going to be a little while tho to get that done.03:14
hornbeckI am against most things till someone tells me why it is a good idea03:14
sparkes_xhornbeck, debian is always a good idea ;-)03:14
sivanghornbeck : I also talked you into it :)03:14
ChrisHsivang: sorry, I missed a few lines (coworker interruption). I just read that we agree on Docbook. :)03:14
sivangChrisH : I think we do03:15
hornbecksivang, sparkes, enrico: all of you talked me into it03:15
hornbeckChrisH: yes03:15
enricoOk, I guess we're all happy that we all agree and we don't want to fight just because we do agree, isn't it? :)03:15
hornbeckno I just like to fight03:15
=== sivang thanks for enrico
sivanghornbeck, I suggest you put up a wiki page "Who wants to fight with me" and see what you can get :)03:15
enricoPeople who like to fight meet at 15:00 UTC in #ubuntu-arena :)03:15
hornbeckso it is agreed, we will work on converting debian-docs, and send any fixes back to debian03:16
enricoLet's move on: Hoary milestone strategy03:16
sivangOk, First thing is to get some pollishing for documentation Hoary is already carrying03:16
hornbeckHoary milestone for me is, get alot of docs03:16
sivangfor instance, MAN pages03:16
sivangisntalled HTML documents03:16
sivangGNOME documentation03:17
=== hornbeck vomits: I hate man pages
sivanginfo pages etc etc.03:17
sparkes_xman pages are part of the deb03:17
enricohornbeck: you can write man pages in docbook! :)03:17
enricohornbeck: apt-get install docbook-to-man03:17
hornbeckI still hate man pages03:17
hornbeckthey are ugly, and very criptic03:17
sivangthis might very well benefit other communities we are basin on, debian is one example. 03:17
hornbeckwritten by those smart people for smart people03:18
plovs_workhornbeck, you should read openbsd man-pages, they are actually nice03:18
ChrisHSorry to get back a step. Which debian docs are supposed to be converted to docbook? Most of them are already in docbook format IIRC.03:18
sivangplovs_work : BSD was my other exmaple :)03:18
George^Dekawell on my old deb system man was the only place i knew to turn other than readme03:18
hornbeckChrisH: convert debian docs to Ubuntu docs03:18
ChrisHhornbeck: s/Debian/Ubuntu/ ? :)03:18
sparkes_xChrisH, they need to go from sgml to xml and then we start adding ubuntu isms to them03:18
sivangmake them Ubuntish03:18
sparkes_xat least that was my fucking plan all along03:18
ChrisHsparkes_x: ic03:18
sivangsparkes_x : I am warning you for bad language :)03:19
hornbecksparkes_x: you are a angry little man03:19
sivangwatch it, hornbeck, enrico help!! :))03:19
=== enrico is lost
sparkes_xI resign from my post on the doc team, too many people argueing a lost cause and then changing their position03:19
sladensparkes_x: ;-)03:19
sparkes_xso bye bye and enjoy the doc team without me03:19
=== enrico is lost and bewildered
=== hornbeck is also
=== sivang just hides from the splinters
=== George^Deka too
enricoEhi, people, cool down.03:20
=== sparkes_x [~sparkes@host217-42-166-29.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"]
sladensparkes_x: oops, I was replying to your previous comment then...03:20
hornbeckif that was my fault I am sorry03:20
=== lulu omigosh he was serious?
=== ChrisH is lost
sparkeshornbeck: no worries see you later03:20
hornbeckI thought he was joking03:20
=== sparkes [sparkes@linuxops.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting []
=== enrico didn't understand what happened
=== ChrisH neither
enricoI propose we move on at talk with sparkes later03:22
ChrisHSomeone please press F1.03:22
George^DekaChrisH: i did03:22
enricoWe were on Hoary milestones03:23
luluenrico: that's a good idea - mediation is needed :o) 03:23
plovs_workenrico, can we have a DocteamHoaryMileston page?03:23
enricoI don't know how many milestones we can setup now, though03:23
plovs_workmake a pgae with priorities03:23
hornbeckthe Ubuntu book is a huge milestone03:23
sivangenrico : agreed. I got a headache03:23
George^Dekawell looking at the hoarygoals page today i noticed under the targets of opportunity there seems to be a bit of stuff doc related the devs want, some of it even says bounty next to it03:24
plovs_workhornbeck, and only, what, 4 months left03:24
enricoI propose we get going writing the documentation we like to write, then reschedule a milestone meeting in a month or so03:24
enricoplovs_work: 4 months?  Uhm... then in a couple of weeks03:24
hornbeckenrico: agreed03:24
=== sivang agrees with enrico
enricoNext point: Start working03:24
plovs_workenrico, why don't you make a proposal, you are good at those03:25
lulusivang was going to put up a page in HoaryHedgehog - let's get our goals on there and prioritise what we need to get done for Hoary.03:25
enricoplovs_work: you mean, for Hoary milestones?  Ok.  I can work on something03:25
George^Dekado we know what the devs/cannonical want in the way of docs for hoary03:26
enricoGeorge^Deka: one problem with the devs is that they're goign to stabilize the feature list quite late03:27
sivangyes, it would be nice to get an idea what they might require, before we set off to do docs of our own when big parts of already shipped software needs documented.03:27
luluGeorge^Deka: Can u ask on the dev list as our representative? point them to the doc page in hoaryhedgehog and they can help prioritise and add what they tyhink is needed.03:28
George^Dekaenrico: true but some docs they might wish may not be so easy - especially if alot of it is from scratch03:28
hornbeckenrico: saunm, complains of that alot03:28
luluGeorge^Deka: and then the doc team can say what is possible to meet the Hoary deadline?03:29
George^Dekalulu: sure ill do that, better join the list then - enrico just make sure you summarize what im doing its 1:30am here now03:29
enricoGeorge^Deka: summarize what you're doing?03:29
luluenrico: if we can have minutes of the meeting with action points, deadline and who is responsible on the wiki - that would be awesome.03:30
enricolulu: sure: it's my job to make a resume of this meeting03:30
sivangenrico : and please do remind me all of the things I promised to do today, so I won't forget? :)03:30
George^Dekaenrico: lulu sumed it up for me03:30
enricoI'm now a bit slow in answering because I have a very loud brasilian television set right next to me03:30
enricosivang: sure03:31
sivangenrico : after all, this is the secretary cow speaking :)03:31
enricoUhm... di we still have things to discuss?03:32
enricoThe "Start working" issue?03:32
=== enrico hates loud television sets
enricoUnfortunately, it's not my house03:32
luluguys - FrontPage - plovs has worked hard on this - we've pretty much incorporated the old front page into APFrontPage.03:32
hornbeckI say APFrontPage be moved up03:33
lulucan all check it and approve/advise on changes so we can make it the Canonical FronPage? :o)03:33
luluFrontPage that is!03:33
sivangWould it be ok to agree now on the front page and them make modifications / comments ?03:33
sivanglulu : you mena this is going to be the new wiki frontpage ?03:34
hornbeckit looks great to me03:34
lulusivang: yup! that's the plan - as a good starting point......03:34
hornbeckgood job plovs, lulu03:35
=== enrico suggest a note abuot the license to be added as soon as it's agreed
=== lulu aye to making it the FrontPage....anyone second?
enricoFine for me03:35
=== sivang nods
sivangand tanks AP for the good work03:35
luluenrico: yes indeedy03:36
enricoOk, last point is start working03:36
luluplovs_work: ping!03:36
plovs_worklulu, :-)03:36
luluplovs_work: we just wanted to say thanks for your hard work and we can make the page the new FrontPage!03:37
sivangMaybe a milestone for hoary plan was too harsh,03:37
sivangwhat about discussing close goals? 03:37
hornbeckI thought we would meet again about hoary goals?03:38
lulusivang: we have a To Do list on the wiki  - close goals should go on there - Hoary can go on there - perhaps we need to make this a table with person responsible and deadline dates. - http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WikiToDo03:39
enricohornbeck: yes.03:39
=== sivang rests
enricoI'd say let's have some minutes for people to post items not in agenda, then close the meeting.03:39
hornbeckWell I will be compiling the book into its order of the next couple weeks and calling on people to help in areas03:39
hornbeckI will also start looking at debian docs that could help us and updating them to current03:40
sivangis anybody keen to take up some work on pollishing documentation that already ships with Ubuntu?03:41
enricosivang: That can do together with the Debian teem03:41
George^Dekawell i may have a try at a fx doc as i mentioned on mailing list. But what else needs doing cause i dont have any doc work yet03:42
enricoadding/fixing manpages and other doucmentation inside packages03:42
sivangok, and what about gnome-user-docs ?03:42
sivangthis is more than merely the user manual03:43
luludo you have a WartyWarthogDoc page where all the tasks are listed - what docs need work? then people can methodically go through them and take responsibility for what they are keen to do?03:44
sivanglulu : good idea :)03:44
=== lulu wasn't sure who to direct that to!
sivanglulu : I had something similar on the /UDP pages,03:44
sivanglulu : I will break things down and try put them in the relavent places for HOary03:45
sivangI might need some help with that , though03:45
lulusivang: great - then each release can have it's goals set out by the doc team and the dev team can collaborate with doc team on it.03:45
sivangenrico : what do you think?03:45
hornbecklulu: great idea03:45
lulugreat!  guys I have to go in 5 - are we almost done?03:46
sivangseems so03:47
hornbecksame, here: work is calling03:47
sivangenrico ?03:47
luluenrico: thanks very much!03:47
enricoI declare the meeting finished, then.  I will post the summary in the ubuntu-doc list as soon as I have it03:47
enricoThe Holy Cow moos03:47
hornbeckenrico: thanks03:47
hornbeckthanks everyone, great meeting03:48
lulu:o) thanks all! Great to meet u guys.03:48
plovs_workok, thanks all!03:48
George^Dekanow its time for bed :P03:48
sivangthank you everybody03:48
=== lamont_r [~lamont@dsl-140-203.dynamic-dsl.frii.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
sivangnight George^Deka03:48
sivanglamont_r : we have just ajorned 03:48
enricoThanks everyone for attending, look forward to the oncoming work!03:49
lamont_rsivang: 's ok.03:49
hornbeckwell I am off to work03:50
hornbeckgoodbye for now03:50
=== enrico goes writing the summary
=== hornbeck [~hornbeck@adsl-68-92-227-70.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"]
plovs_worksee you all in #ubuntu-doc !03:51
luluenrico: will u talk to sparkes asap? it would be a shame to have him go03:51
enricolulu: yes, I'll see what I can do03:51
George^Dekadid you see his resignation mail03:51
ChrisHlulu: he has already posted on -doc. :(03:51
ChrisHI wasn't sure whether it was a joke. Obviously he was serious about it.03:52
luluChrisH: oh dear - he must've been very cheesed off....03:52
=== ChrisH probably lacks the previous history
sivangI reckon he didn't take so good the jokes me and horbeck made on account of the debian works03:53
sivangI mean, he eventually said it was due to lack of time 03:53
sivangI just dind't understand why he said "everybody" where against his plans, I never said something against working up debiand docs03:55
ChrisHIs he the "interface person" regarding the interchange of documentation between Debian and Ubuntu?03:55
sivangI think that is George^Deka03:56
plovs_workChrisH, enrico is the interface, most of the time03:57
sivangif I recall right the backlog03:57
sivangat least he said he voulneteers for that03:57
plovs_workthat is right03:58
=== George^Deka [~George_De@046.a.009.mel.iprimus.net.au] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["bedtime"]
plovs_workso guys, maybe you can start looking at the FrontPage, and flame away (in the mailinglist)04:02
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