[12:37] <sparkes_x> won't be here for start of doc meeting
[12:37] <sparkes_x> I am logging
[12:37] <sparkes_x> afk bbl
[12:42] <sivang> sparkes_x : why x ? :)
[12:43] <sparkes> is this better?
[12:43] <sparkes_x> lot's of lag on my other client this direct one seems best today
[12:43] <sparkes_x> bbl really late now ;-)
[12:45] <sivang> how late is it for you?
[12:46] <sparkes_x> it's almost midday ;-) but I have to be elsewhere for the next hour or so
[01:02] <sivang> darn.
[01:02] <sivang> had to crash x,
[01:02] <sivang> tried to use nvtv to attend meeting through TV
[01:04] <sivang> does anybody knows of other people who might be on their way to attend this?
[01:06] <sivang> hmm, not much of reaction..is there anybody here alive?
[01:08] <sivang> each person who's alive here, please say "beep" :)
[01:09] <sivang> ok, let's try and start - see how long can I talk to myself :)
[01:50] <sivang> yo asw!
[01:50] <sivang> :)
[01:50] <sivang> whassup?
[01:50] <asw> not too much. I'd like to see if I can make the community meeting in Barcelona.  Anybody else from the Doc team going to be there?
[01:52] <sivang> I would love to be there, not sure if I could manage to though.
[01:54] <hornbeck> hey no talking
[01:54] <asw> I seem to have taken the unlikely role of Free Software zealot in the group but I do find it slightly grating that we don't uniformly follow the Debian/FSF policy of referring to this O/S as either "Ubuntu" full-stop or "Ubuntu GNU/Linux".  I have the irrational desire to go and change every URL that has http://www.ubuntulinux.org to be http://www.ubuntu.com
[01:54] <hornbeck> :-)
[01:55] <hornbeck> alot of the url's don't seems to work with just www.ubuntu.com
[01:56] <Kamion> ubuntulinux.org was an unfortunate consequence of domain handling politics
[01:56] <Kamion> apart from the domain, I believe that we consistently refer to ourselves as simply "Ubuntu". If you find exceptions, please correct them.
[01:57] <asw> hornbeck: can you give an example? Re. broken ubuntu.com links?  There should be a standard procedure for filing doc/wiki bugreports (if there isn't already.) 
[01:57] <sivang> Kamion : we can make some clarification so to note our gratitude to GNU , what do you think?
[01:58] <hornbeck> asw: I have not tried them in awhile but for the longest alot of the wiki pages did not work
[01:58] <asw> Kamion: I had been told the same thing by Mako. I'm perfectly happy with the idea of the "Ubuntu O/S" full stop. 
[02:00] <Kamion> we standardised on simply "Ubuntu" to avoid the whole debate.
[02:01] <sivang> ok, that's fine altogether. In docs and referneces we can just say "Ubuntu is a Debian GNU/Linux system, ..." for the record
[02:01] <Kamion> it's not
[02:01] <sivang> it's not ?
[02:01] <Kamion> it's a derivative of Debian GNU/Linux; it's not a Debian GNU/Linux system
[02:02] <hornbeck> nice beagle pics up the mozilla extentions now
[02:02] <sivang> oops, yes I menat a based
[02:02] <asw> in particular, hornbeck's proposed book should either be "Learning the Ubuntu Operating System" or "Learning Ubuntu GNU/Linux" but -not- "Learning Ubuntu Linux" as it is currently called.  I don't want to tell other people what to name their work, so, I find the whole thing very awkward.  Kamion: yes standardize on Ubuntu (operating sytem) full-stop.  Does that sound good to everybody else?
[02:03] <sivang> asw : it pretty good to me.
[02:03] <sivang> anyways,
[02:03] <sivang> shall we start?
[02:03] <sivang> Has everybody glanced at the agenda?
[02:03] <hornbeck> is sparkes here?
[02:03] <sivang> hmm good point
[02:03] <sivang> let's see
[02:04] <sivang> if no one objects, I don't mind waiting 10 more minutes before we start..:) so maybe every interested party would get the chance
[02:05] <George^Deka> hi all
[02:05] <hornbeck> hello
[02:05] <asw> hi
[02:05] <hornbeck> yes sivang I think we need to wait a few for people strolling in
[02:06] <sivang> yes I see now
[02:07] <sivang> hey plovs!
[02:07] <hornbeck> plovs!!!!!!
[02:07] <hornbeck> you know its amazing how in a chat you act so excited about seeing another grown man
[02:07] <hornbeck> hmmm
[02:08] <hornbeck> lets retract a couple of the !!! from that
[02:08] <sivang> hi lulu, good to see you here :)
[02:08] <lulu> Hi all! Great to see such a turnout - sorry I'm late - been working with plovs
[02:09] <plovs_work> hi guys!
[02:09] <sivang> no it's ok, we're still waiting a bunch for people strolling in...
[02:09] <hornbeck> I think we are pretty good now
[02:10] <lulu> sivang: is it a standup meeting? I may be a bit behind on email - do we have an agenda and a time limit?
[02:10] <sivang> lulu : I've yet to think of a time limit, but the agenda is linked from the topic
[02:10] <plovs_work> my time-limit 45 minutes, i have a meeting afterwards
[02:10] <lulu> ahh - there it is - thanks :o)
[02:11] <hornbeck> I work in about a hour
[02:11] <plovs_work> who makes a backup of this whole thing and sends it to enrico?
[02:11] <asw> i can do that gladly. 
[02:12] <lulu> asw:thank you!
[02:12] <hornbeck> sivang: want to start
[02:12] <plovs_work> so, shall we go from top to bottom then on the http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamMeeting ?
[02:12] <sivang> yo enrico my man!
[02:13] <enrico> Hello all!
[02:13] <sivang> thank you enrico for managin this,
[02:13] <plovs_work> the man himself!
[02:13] <lulu> hey enrico!  will you chair the meeting then?
[02:13] <sivang> enrico : ?
[02:13] <enrico> lulu: I can do it, not sure for how much, but I'm confident I can spend at least an hour here
[02:14] <enrico> I'm loading galeon and getting to the docmeeteing page
[02:14] <asw> enrico: seems that others have to go in an hour too. hornbeck, plovs... 
[02:14] <sivang> galeon???
[02:14] <enrico> sivang: a web browser
[02:14] <sivang> it's oldie , isn't it?
[02:15] <enrico> yes
[02:15] <sivang> that's why the ???
[02:15] <sivang> :)
[02:15] <lulu> guys....... :o) shall we begin!?
[02:15] <enrico> Let's begin!
[02:15] <sivang> yes!
[02:15] <enrico> Who's there?
[02:16] <enrico>  * Enrico
[02:16] <sivang> * Sivan
[02:16] <asw> * asw
[02:16] <hornbeck> * hornbeck
[02:16] <lulu> * lulu
[02:16] <ChrisH> * ChrisH
[02:16] <George^Deka> * George^Deka
[02:16] <sivang> we have several new people here, I would like them to shortly introduce themselves 
[02:17] <enrico> Let's begin from the beginning: state of the documentation team
[02:17] <enrico> who's who and who does what
[02:18] <hornbeck> can I start?
[02:18] <enrico> hornbeck: sure, please
[02:18] <hornbeck> ok
[02:19] <hornbeck> I am setting up a svn server for the doc team
[02:19] <hornbeck> it will be active the beginning of next week and be hosted out of my home
[02:19] <hornbeck> I have not done much doc work because I have been learning how to set this all up :-)
[02:20] <hornbeck> I will be giving ssh accounts to certain doc members so if you would like to be on the list please contact me
[02:20] <asw> hornbeck svn? 
[02:20] <enrico> asw: subversion
[02:20] <lulu> hornbeck: Rationale for setup?
[02:21] <hornbeck> lulu: Ubuntu dev's would not give us room to work on large files
[02:21] <hornbeck> so I bought a bigger line into the house and some static ip's
[02:21] <sparkes_x> how far down the agenda are we?
[02:21] <sivang> not started
[02:21] <sivang> :)
[02:21] <hornbeck> sparkes just started
[02:21] <enrico> asw: a version control system like CVS and Arch  (if you ignore the authors of cvs, svn and arch telling you that they're all so extremely and fundamentally different ;)
[02:21] <sivang> you didn't miss a thing
[02:21] <sivang> :)
[02:21] <sparkes_x> cool
[02:21] <asw> um. I, personally, use GNU Arch.  Canonical is also investing heavily in Arch (see Bazar).  
[02:21] <hornbeck> if we do not like svn, we can try something else
[02:22] <lulu> hornbeck: i.e. working on books? who did you ask?
[02:22] <enrico> lulu: mdz
[02:22] <sparkes_x> I love svn but arch sounds, errrm interesting
[02:22] <hornbeck> lulu: mdz
[02:22] <lulu> ok - right.....
[02:22] <sivang> I think we might altogether switch to Bazzar, might also help canonical in testing and patches
[02:22] <asw> See http://www.canonical.com/projects/ 
[02:22] <lulu> sivang: that is what I'd like to suggest - Robert Collins would help you hornbeck
[02:23] <hornbeck> is that what everyone wants?
[02:23] <hornbeck> to use arch and bazar when it is ready?
[02:23] <sivang> plus it would make merging the repo into canonical, once this is approved by upranks
[02:23] <sparkes_x> RCollins help hornbeck with what?
[02:23] <sparkes_x> sivang, agreed
[02:23] <lulu> sparkes_x: getting bazaar set up
[02:24] <hornbeck> lulu: I was with the understanding that arch required more than one webserver
[02:24] <sparkes_x> lulu, ta, makes sence now
[02:24] <sivang> can we continue with agenda, and discuss technicalities at the end maybe?
[02:24] <enrico> sivang: I agree
[02:25] <lulu> hornbeck: ok - shall we say - Action point - contact Rob Collins re: requirements and present pros and cons of options to the team??
[02:25] <enrico> Let's compress this in Hornbeck is working on setting up a VCS for the docteam to use for larger documents
[02:25] <hornbeck> enrico: yes
[02:25] <enrico> Enrico is happy to help hornbeck
[02:25] <sivang> Let have some more team memebers tell whay they are up into currently, so to finish status item :)
[02:26] <enrico> I can talk about me
[02:26] <sivang> ok, as we have several new people here that would be good they know who you are :) go ahead
[02:26] <enrico> I'm currently half-available, in Brasil for a conference
[02:26] <asw> lulu, hornbeck: I'm setting up Arch for my own project, please, use me as a resource as well.  
[02:27] <enrico> I've been appointed at the documentation team secretary and I'm now working on setting up my position on this and to learn how to interact with Canonical
[02:27] <sivang> enrico is going to be the person to complain too :)
[02:27] <sivang> to
[02:28] <enrico> In the EnricoZini wiki page you can find a list of advertised services from the secretary :)
[02:28] <sivang> ok, I'll go next ? 
[02:28] <enrico> I think that's it.  Questions welcome anytime
[02:29] <plovs_work> i have been cleaning up the wiki, adding some icons and looking at the FrontPage
[02:30] <sivang> My name is Sivan Green, I started working on the wiki some time ago, and a list of my current activies can be found at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamCurrentWork
[02:31] <enrico> lulu: do you mean that I've finally found the person to ask things for when I want to interact with Canonical?
[02:31] <sparkes_x> I am Steve Parkes and I am writing a different book based on the current upstream docs, cos I am a free software zealot too ;-)
[02:31] <lulu> enrico: fire away!  - All -  Please do not hesitate to be in touch and if I can help you I will.
[02:32] <sivang> Currently paying special attention to new people who join us, as well as well as devising a more formal plan / page for that matter.
[02:33] <sivang> anyone else?
[02:33] <George^Deka> I am George Dekavalas, currently doing nothing been thinking about making the plunge into contributing back and tonight is just the start of it.
[02:33] <sparkes_x> nice one George^Deka ;-) welcome aboard
[02:33] <asw> I am Alexander (Sasha) Wait.  Recently self-apointed free software zealot.  Willing test-subject for community procedures and evangelist for the use of the Ubuntu O/S in science.  I also run an ALife group in Boston and am the new maintainer of the REC.GAMES.COREWAR FAQ. 
[02:34] <enrico> We should have an introduction of everyone now
[02:34] <lulu> what a team :o)
[02:34] <sivang> yes, I see some more people here, who hadn
[02:35] <sivang> n't introduced themselves, for sake of new comers I propose they do :)
[02:35] <enrico> Do people know of other active people who are not present here or written in the list?
[02:35] <hornbeck> Ben Edwards dropped out
[02:35] <sivang> what do you mean dropped out?
[02:36] <hornbeck> he is no longer on the doc team
[02:36] <lulu> Do you know why?
[02:36] <sivang> since when?
[02:36] <sivang> Was he mailing the list?
[02:36] <hornbeck> lulu: yes, but he asked me not to say
[02:36] <hornbeck> he was here first ,meeting and mailing list
[02:37] <lulu> hornbeck: oh dear. Sorry to hear that. Is there anything we can do to encourage his return?
[02:37] <hornbeck> lulu: I tried he said he was not interested in being a part anymore
[02:37] <plovs_work> i wrote to him, not for now he said
[02:37] <hornbeck> ok, lets try to speed up if we can :-)
[02:38] <hornbeck> asw: farwell
[02:38] <sivang> bye asw
[02:38] <hornbeck> fairwell
[02:38] <lulu> cheers!
[02:38] <enrico> asw: bye
[02:38] <plovs_work> asw: see ya!
[02:38] <George^Deka> asw: cya
[02:39] <enrico> Let's move on.  I was thinking about asking people a list of wiki pages they maintain, but it would take time.  Could everyone just list them in their wiki homepages?
[02:39] <lulu> enrico: tools we are currently using?
[02:39] <enrico> I know of Wiki and the upcoming version control system for large docs.  And the mailing list.
[02:40] <hornbeck> enrico: agreed, those are the only ones right now
[02:40] <lulu> ok - have we got a final decision on the wiki markup language and for the website?
[02:40] <lulu> for the record?
[02:40] <enrico> We don't have a specific IRC channel, and I don't usually see IRC chats about the doc team: are there some happening?
[02:41] <sivang> lulu : I thought we would leave how it's now - everybody can choose whatever he likes 
[02:41] <enrico> lulu: there was the idea of distinguishing between different stages of documents
[02:41] <hornbeck> irc is happening in -devel
[02:41] <hornbeck> lulu: I use ReST and moin
[02:41] <sivang> lulu : I've seen you can choose what format of markup to save
[02:41] <enrico> hornbeck: thanks.  For the records, there's a lot of traffic in -devel and I don't follow it, so if you see me in and need me, just say my name and I'll see a notice
[02:42] <hornbeck> enrico: I normally PM you
[02:42] <hornbeck> :-)
[02:42] <plovs_work> #ubuntu-doc would not be bad
[02:42] <hornbeck> agreed
[02:42] <lulu> ok - perhaps we should have one we recommend - so we can get consistency?
[02:43] <sivang> let's agree for #ubuntu-doc for all our docdevel discussions, it's been great in serving us till now
[02:43] <plovs_work> somebody has to find out about channelownership etc
[02:43] <George^Deka> well in terms of markup to use what do people consider the best to us, for someone who has not edited a wiki before (no tendencies to one or other)
[02:43] <enrico> [format]  this idea that was around in the list was to use the easiest markup (Moin) for things everyone scraps on, since it has a very low barrier of entry.  Then, if things evolve and need more structure and the people in the page want, it can be refactored in ReST
[02:43] <enrico> Then eventually it can become a DocBook work if it grows up even more and the team of people that work on it feel like
[02:43] <plovs_work> enrico, agreed, moin is easy but broken in zwiki, ReST is difficult but (more) complete
[02:43] <sparkes_x> enrico, the other parts of the site don't support moin so moving to /docs would require new markup
[02:44] <enrico> (from this recap I'm writing, I see a pattern emerging: "the people active on the page are the ones that decide" :)
[02:44] <sparkes_x> enrico, that seemst o be the case
[02:44] <sivang> I think we should be focusing on MoinMoin, really use the wiki is the scrap & sketch area. 
[02:44] <lulu> I had never edited a wiki before joining Canonical - moinmoin was very easy to learn. an should be fully supported by the ZWiki now....
[02:45] <sivang> offline, full fledged stable docs should be docbook
[02:45] <enrico> [wiki]  we seem to have an agreement.
[02:45] <sparkes_x> sivang, agreed
[02:45] <enrico> Current wiki issues:
[02:45] <hornbeck> sivang: yes, docbook is a must offline
[02:45] <enrico>  * speed (they're working on it, but nothing short term will happen)
[02:45] <enrico>  * things lacking from Moin (I see TableOfContents often mentioned), is there other things?
[02:45] <sivang> so we've heared from lulu :-) thanks for your support though
[02:46] <enrico> sivang: yes, I was recapping lulu message: lulu, sorry for missing the attribution
[02:46] <enrico>  * license of wiki contents
[02:46] <hornbeck> sivang: I really like ReST on the wiki
[02:46] <sivang> GPL! GPL! GPL! :)
[02:46] <sparkes_x> enrico, gpl 
[02:47] <hornbeck> gpl
[02:47] <sparkes_x> gpl is the best option for upstream
[02:47] <hornbeck> ChrisH agreed
[02:47] <sparkes_x> ChrisH, true
[02:47] <sparkes_x> ChrisH, seconded ;-)
[02:48] <hornbeck> docbook is for offline docs
[02:48] <hornbeck> we have agreed on that
[02:48] <enrico> lulu: jdub told me there was some offline discussion about wiki content license, but I never heard of outcomes
[02:48] <ChrisH> hornbeck: It can be easily used to create online docs, too.
[02:48] <hornbeck> ChrisH please send a link
[02:48] <enrico> lulu: I tried asking twice in the warthogs list but I got no answer
[02:48] <sparkes_x> ChrisH, don't offend the wiki fans ;-)
[02:48] <lulu> enrico: Not sure of that myself - I am willing to find out - put e down for that action point.
[02:48] <enrico> lulu: do you know of anything?
[02:48] <lulu> and I'll get back to you all
[02:48] <enrico> lulu: ok.  Here we have an agreement on GPL
[02:49] <lulu> enrico: ok
[02:49] <enrico> lulu: if it's ok for them as well, we can proceed and put an explicit notice in the wiki
[02:49] <George^Deka> I am sure i read somewhere that someone had an issue on using the GPL for docs, but im fine with it
[02:49] <ChrisH> hornbeck: http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/ and http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/
[02:49] <lulu> enrico: I'd like to have a word with SABDFL on that issue ok?
[02:49] <hornbeck> ChrisH: thank you
[02:49] <enrico> It's important that there are no licensing issues in the wiki, or it would be a big problem when taking things from there into bigger doucments
[02:50] <sivang> George^Deka : that was for GFDL
[02:50] <enrico> lulu: ok.  I tried already to talk with sabdfl about it, but with little success.  I hope you're more lucky
[02:50] <enrico> We're getting to the end of the wiki discussion.  Someone has some missing feature to report?
[02:50] <lulu> enrico: let's put a wiki page up of what the argument is and concerns raised and I will get a decision ok!?
[02:51] <sparkes_x> we also need to take into account some parts of the wiki may be imported from elsewhere and have different licences
[02:51] <George^Deka> sivang: maybe but could have sworn there was also an issue with GPL, because i knew there was the issues with GFDL (non-DFSG)
[02:51] <enrico> lulu: ok.  my original mail on warthogs can be used as base contents for the page
[02:51] <lulu> sparkes_x: exactly. 
[02:51] <sivang> George^Deka : would you like to investiage and tell me your conclusions? this might be interesting.
[02:51] <enrico> lulu: I can take care of creating the page
[02:52] <lulu> enrico: good. Time is running short - let's move on.
[02:52] <sivang> what page are we talking about?
[02:52] <enrico> sivang: a recap on the licensing issue
[02:52] <sivang> ok
[02:52] <George^Deka> i will try, now trying to remeber where i saw it (me thinks it was ubuntu related or debian weekly news)
[02:52] <enrico> Next point is: how to approach new members
[02:52] <sivang> yes
[02:52] <sivang> :)
[02:53] <lulu> sivang: is there an ETA for a draft of the Initiation process so we can contribute wehn it's up there?
[02:53] <George^Deka> well as far as i can tell as being new for like 8 hours now, having people actually respond to your emails of help helps
[02:53] <sivang> lulu : I will have one by tommorow
[02:53] <lulu> sivang: awesome!
[02:54] <sivang> I would like to see we streamline the way we approach our new comers,
[02:54] <George^Deka> i have had the issue with moz that they are all two busy to get back to you on if they want your help or not
[02:54] <hornbeck> George same with mono-doc
[02:54] <hornbeck> noone wants to help you
[02:54] <sivang> together with a planned new comers TODO list, learning resources etc.
[02:54] <enrico> I propose to have a DocTeam Dogma
[02:54] <enrico> 1) All help mails should be answered
[02:54] <George^Deka> lulu: brillant - can you mail the link cause i might forget otherwise - good place for me to learn
[02:55] <sivang> bottom line, when someone approaches us and says "I wanna help"
[02:55] <sivang> he should be able to do so in matter of days, no better ! in matter of hours...:)
[02:55] <enrico> 2) RTFM is not an answer, unless it's nicely put and with a working link to the documentation
[02:55] <lulu> George^Deka: which link?
[02:55] <hornbeck> I am sorry everyone for my RTFM reply
[02:55] <George^Deka> lulu: initiation process
[02:55] <enrico> hornbeck: Don't worry: it happens
[02:56] <enrico> hornbeck: there are habits we all carry from other communities
[02:56] <sivang> no it's ok, We love you John Hornbeck :)
[02:56] <sladen> hornbeck: ''do this and this and this.  A more detailed overview can be found at <link>''
[02:56] <hornbeck> yes, I know
[02:56] <lulu> sivang: could u let the list know where the initiation doc is once it's up there?
[02:56] <sivang> I would like us to see take up on the spirit of #gnome-love
[02:56] <sivang> lulu : ofcourse,
[02:56] <sivang> I would send the link to ML
[02:57] <George^Deka> enrico: RTFM ?
[02:57] <hornbeck> read the f**ing manual
[02:57] <enrico> George^Deka: Read The Fine Manual
[02:57] <hornbeck> enrico is being nice
[02:57] <enrico> hornbeck: it's an acronym which has two expansions: one for the writer and one for the reader :)
[02:57] <George^Deka> i should have known - it is 1am here
[02:58] <enrico> About always responding to help messages, we have a deadlock problem
[02:58] <enrico> Many help request don't get answered because everyone thinks someone else will answer
[02:58] <hornbeck> everyone should answer if they see it first
[02:58] <hornbeck> if you see it reply
[02:58] <sivang> yes that is important
[02:59] <sivang> so new people wouldn't get the feeling it
[02:59] <sivang> no alie
[02:59] <sivang> alive
[02:59] <lulu> enrico: good point to have one person who is ultimately responsible? - sivang - do you want to answer these?
[02:59] <enrico> hornbeck: good.  third dogma
[02:59] <sivang> (i can't type today, or anyday)
[02:59] <enrico>  3) If you see it, reply
[02:59] <George^Deka> As far as i am concerned the more replies the better, it makes you feel really wanted and that people are there to help you out.
[02:59] <sivang> lulu : I will
[02:59] <plovs_work> new people should go to the mailing-list or #ubuntu-doc
[02:59] <enrico> George^Deka: very good point!
[03:00] <plovs_work> we should be nice and then point them there
[03:00] <enrico> George^Deka: usually one thinks duplicate replies should be avoided because they generate unnecessary traffic, but this is an artefact from when we had 9.6Kbps modems.  We should get past it!
[03:00] <George^Deka> one issue i did have today was there is no link from ubuntu mail-list page to the -doc ML - had to find it in a post from -users
[03:00] <sladen> plovs_work: would inviting people to #ubuntu-help be more useful than clouding your documentation-discussion channel?
[03:00] <enrico> Dogma 4
[03:00] <lulu> George^Deka: yes - but we need to have someone ultimately responsible. 
[03:01] <enrico>  4) Don't worry about duplicate replies
[03:01] <George^Deka> enrico: well thats what newbies are for
[03:01] <lulu> I am responsible for answering the info and webmaster emails and that has been a comment from most people - we always get back to people and it's a highlight for us - I think it's very important to be a responsive distro.
[03:01] <plovs_work> sladen, if they want help with doc-stuff they are welcome, not for general help
[03:01] <sladen> plovs_work: nod, sorry, missed that bit
[03:01] <George^Deka> lulu: but it took me a while to get to it so i could even join, if i wasn't persitant enough to find the archives i would have not been here tonight cause i didnt know it was happening
[03:02] <enrico> George^Deka: please if you see 
[03:02] <plovs_work> we need one person who is responsible for those kind of things, helping newbies, newbie-docs etc
[03:02] <enrico> George^Deka: please if you see other issues like that, write a mail to the list: you're raising very valuable issues we were not able to see
[03:03] <enrico> plovs_work: sivan offered, if I'm not mistaken
[03:03] <George^Deka> enrico: sure will thought i would bring it here if i could anyway, another issue i had to guess it was on freenode
[03:03] <sivang> I think having a dedicated person for this task would be great, I am willing to voulenteer for that, but even so having other community memebers responsible for that would make a nice redundency in case I can't make it once in a while.
[03:03] <plovs_work> enrico, thanks
[03:03] <lulu> George^Deka: good point  and sivan: thanks - I think that's a good call.
[03:03] <enrico> sivang: yes, there could be a welcome team
[03:03] <plovs_work> sivang, you'll do fine
[03:04] <enrico> I'm happy to be in the welcome team
[03:04] <enrico> Welcome team: sivang, enrico
[03:04] <sivang> great
[03:04] <lulu> done! What's next?
[03:04] <enrico> Next point: offline documentation
[03:04] <hornbeck> yes, I was about to type that
[03:04] <enrico> Do we agree on docbook?  Yes.
[03:04] <enrico> Next point:
[03:05] <hornbeck> yes
[03:05] <enrico> :)
[03:05] <hornbeck> we HAVE to start writing this stuff
[03:05] <hornbeck> and decideing what is being brought over from debian
[03:05] <hornbeck> and gnome
[03:05] <sivang> I would  like to see one goal we set up -
[03:05] <enrico> Conversion strategies between different formats: should we discuss it now or just tackle it when the problem shows up?
[03:06] <enrico> I propose to use the ancient philosophy "first get to do it, then document it, then automate it"
[03:06] <sivang> I am ok with postponing it for when the problem shows up
[03:06] <George^Deka> or leave it to next meeting
[03:06] <sivang> yes it would be wise :) I wonder what brought me to put it htere in the first place...
[03:06] <enrico> Next point, then
[03:06] <enrico> License (again)
[03:06] <sivang> GPL! GPL! GPL! :)
[03:06] <enrico> I would #include <what said before>
[03:07] <hornbeck> are we going to fix debian docs?
[03:07] <hornbeck> I am now on the debian-doc list and they are very outdated
[03:07] <enrico> Do we need licensing differences between wiki and docbook documents?
[03:07] <sivang> I don't think so
[03:07] <lulu> hornbeck: and make them ubuntu-docs?
[03:07] <plovs_work> we need a page, stating what docbook docs we need, i for one have no idea
[03:07] <hornbeck> lulu: yes
[03:07] <lulu> hornbeck: I like your thinking :o)
[03:08] <hornbeck> I really would like to see alot of offline stuff for hoary
[03:08] <hornbeck> I like the wiki but it is not a solid doc base
[03:08] <sivang> I would like to raise up one goal for hoary, to pollish up already exisitng docs and especilly improving GNOME docs to include Ubuntu's quircks and differences from stock
[03:08] <lulu> sivang: add it to the wiki under HoaryHedgehog
[03:08] <George^Deka> I was thinking about it today, we need the wiki offline so it can just be used as help, with all the FAQ's etc i have been seeing around
[03:09] <hornbeck> gnome2-user-doc will be the first thing in the new server
[03:09] <sivang> lulu : ok, I will
[03:09] <George^Deka> So it might be a case of converting it (wiki) to docbook
[03:09] <enrico> If we get really good, we could do like de devels do with code: make patches and apply them to future versions of documents
[03:09] <sivang> this is what I have in mind
[03:09] <sparkes_x> wtf I thought I was the only person who cared about debian-docs ;-)
[03:09] <enrico> But we can thing about that when we get really good
[03:10] <lulu> George^Deka: we have a Help Centre in Plone, called Documentation, where we are hoping all FAQs, HowTos and books will sit.
[03:10] <hornbeck> enrico: I have already begun talking to debian-doc guys about how I submit patches
[03:10] <sivang> lulu : I would like also to have some of it compiled and to be installed in an ubuntusystem out the box, and be browseable through yelp
[03:10] <George^Deka> lulu: granted, i still havent kicked debian and kde off this box yet. It will happen soon though
[03:11] <sivang> lulu : that is the markup that is used for that section on the main site?
[03:11] <enrico> hornbeck: cool!!
[03:11] <lulu> sivang: we have a mix of html and structured text currently
[03:11] <enrico> hornbeck: you mean we could team up with debian doc guys?  That would be AWESOME!  (or OUTSTANDING for the brits)
[03:11] <sparkes_x> you lot are taking the piss now ;-) when I suggested debian docs everyone barfed
[03:11] <lulu> sivang: I think structured text is easier for most pepes and will need help converting all pages to it.
[03:11] <hornbeck> enrico: I posted to their list about helping, they were very happy to have me
[03:12] <hornbeck> sparkes_x: You are not sexy like me so noone listens :-p
[03:12] <enrico> hornbeck: you made by day!
[03:12] <sivang> ChrisH : now here a team of debian who accepts new blood :)
[03:12] <enrico> hornbeck: you made my day!
[03:12] <sparkes_x> bollocks to this
[03:12] <sparkes_x> you lot say one thing and mean another
[03:13] <sparkes_x> we argued about debian docs for a week and everyone was against the idea
[03:13] <hornbeck> sparkes: I hope you are joking
[03:13] <enrico> sparkes_x: I wasn't
[03:13] <sparkes_x> and now everyone is for the idea
[03:13] <sparkes_x> enrico, true
[03:13] <sivang> lulu : yelp eats DocBook XML, so I guess we might use the conversion script and see what results we can have in yelp
[03:13] <sparkes_x> but everyone else (mostly) was
[03:13] <hornbeck> I don't remember being against debian-docs
[03:13] <hornbeck> I may have been
[03:13] <hornbeck> who knows
[03:13] <sivang> I surely wasn't against it
[03:13] <sparkes_x> hornbeck, you where ;-)
[03:14] <hornbeck> well you made me see the light :-)
[03:14] <sivang> well, it's all evident on the mailing list archive
[03:14] <sivang> if anyone cares to proove that, but we're not debian kiddies are we?
[03:14] <sivang> :)
[03:14] <lulu> sivang: ok - good. I am looking into Plone ATContentTypes and lingua plone for the site so we can deal with translations - it's going to be a little while tho to get that done.
[03:14] <hornbeck> I am against most things till someone tells me why it is a good idea
[03:14] <sparkes_x> hornbeck, debian is always a good idea ;-)
[03:14] <sivang> hornbeck : I also talked you into it :)
[03:14] <ChrisH> sivang: sorry, I missed a few lines (coworker interruption). I just read that we agree on Docbook. :)
[03:15] <sivang> ChrisH : I think we do
[03:15] <hornbeck> sivang, sparkes, enrico: all of you talked me into it
[03:15] <hornbeck> ChrisH: yes
[03:15] <enrico> Ok, I guess we're all happy that we all agree and we don't want to fight just because we do agree, isn't it? :)
[03:15] <sivang> hahhaha
[03:15] <sivang> yes
[03:15] <hornbeck> no I just like to fight
[03:15] <sivang> hornbeck, I suggest you put up a wiki page "Who wants to fight with me" and see what you can get :)
[03:15] <enrico> People who like to fight meet at 15:00 UTC in #ubuntu-arena :)
[03:15] <ChrisH> lol
[03:16] <George^Deka> lol
[03:16] <hornbeck> so it is agreed, we will work on converting debian-docs, and send any fixes back to debian
[03:16] <sivang> yeah!
[03:16] <enrico> Let's move on: Hoary milestone strategy
[03:16] <sivang> yes
[03:16] <sivang> Ok, First thing is to get some pollishing for documentation Hoary is already carrying
[03:16] <hornbeck> Hoary milestone for me is, get alot of docs
[03:16] <sivang> for instance, MAN pages
[03:16] <sivang> isntalled HTML documents
[03:17] <sivang> GNOME documentation
[03:17] <sivang> info pages etc etc.
[03:17] <sparkes_x> man pages are part of the deb
[03:17] <enrico> hornbeck: you can write man pages in docbook! :)
[03:17] <enrico> hornbeck: apt-get install docbook-to-man
[03:17] <hornbeck> I still hate man pages
[03:17] <hornbeck> they are ugly, and very criptic
[03:17] <sivang> this might very well benefit other communities we are basin on, debian is one example. 
[03:18] <hornbeck> written by those smart people for smart people
[03:18] <plovs_work> hornbeck, you should read openbsd man-pages, they are actually nice
[03:18] <ChrisH> Sorry to get back a step. Which debian docs are supposed to be converted to docbook? Most of them are already in docbook format IIRC.
[03:18] <sivang> plovs_work : BSD was my other exmaple :)
[03:18] <George^Deka> well on my old deb system man was the only place i knew to turn other than readme
[03:18] <hornbeck> ChrisH: convert debian docs to Ubuntu docs
[03:18] <ChrisH> hornbeck: s/Debian/Ubuntu/ ? :)
[03:18] <sparkes_x> ChrisH, they need to go from sgml to xml and then we start adding ubuntu isms to them
[03:18] <sivang> make them Ubuntish
[03:18] <sparkes_x> at least that was my fucking plan all along
[03:18] <ChrisH> sparkes_x: ic
[03:19] <sivang> sparkes_x : I am warning you for bad language :)
[03:19] <hornbeck> sparkes_x: you are a angry little man
[03:19] <sivang> watch it, hornbeck, enrico help!! :))
[03:19] <sparkes_x> I resign from my post on the doc team, too many people argueing a lost cause and then changing their position
[03:19] <sladen> sparkes_x: ;-)
[03:19] <sparkes_x> so bye bye and enjoy the doc team without me
[03:20] <hornbeck> what?
[03:20] <enrico> Ehi, people, cool down.
[03:20] <hornbeck> hmmm
[03:20] <sladen> sparkes_x: oops, I was replying to your previous comment then...
[03:20] <hornbeck> if that was my fault I am sorry
[03:20] <sparkes> hornbeck: no worries see you later
[03:20] <hornbeck> I thought he was joking
[03:21] <enrico> ?
[03:22] <enrico> I propose we move on at talk with sparkes later
[03:22] <ChrisH> Someone please press F1.
[03:22] <George^Deka> ChrisH: i did
[03:23] <enrico> We were on Hoary milestones
[03:23] <lulu> enrico: that's a good idea - mediation is needed :o) 
[03:23] <plovs_work> enrico, can we have a DocteamHoaryMileston page?
[03:23] <enrico> I don't know how many milestones we can setup now, though
[03:23] <plovs_work> make a pgae with priorities
[03:23] <hornbeck> the Ubuntu book is a huge milestone
[03:23] <sivang> enrico : agreed. I got a headache
[03:24] <George^Deka> well looking at the hoarygoals page today i noticed under the targets of opportunity there seems to be a bit of stuff doc related the devs want, some of it even says bounty next to it
[03:24] <plovs_work> hornbeck, and only, what, 4 months left
[03:24] <enrico> I propose we get going writing the documentation we like to write, then reschedule a milestone meeting in a month or so
[03:24] <enrico> plovs_work: 4 months?  Uhm... then in a couple of weeks
[03:24] <hornbeck> enrico: agreed
[03:24] <enrico> Next point: Start working
[03:25] <plovs_work> enrico, why don't you make a proposal, you are good at those
[03:25] <lulu> sivang was going to put up a page in HoaryHedgehog - let's get our goals on there and prioritise what we need to get done for Hoary.
[03:25] <enrico> plovs_work: you mean, for Hoary milestones?  Ok.  I can work on something
[03:26] <George^Deka> do we know what the devs/cannonical want in the way of docs for hoary
[03:27] <enrico> George^Deka: one problem with the devs is that they're goign to stabilize the feature list quite late
[03:27] <sivang> yes, it would be nice to get an idea what they might require, before we set off to do docs of our own when big parts of already shipped software needs documented.
[03:28] <lulu> George^Deka: Can u ask on the dev list as our representative? point them to the doc page in hoaryhedgehog and they can help prioritise and add what they tyhink is needed.
[03:28] <George^Deka> enrico: true but some docs they might wish may not be so easy - especially if alot of it is from scratch
[03:28] <hornbeck> enrico: saunm, complains of that alot
[03:28] <hornbeck> shaunm
[03:29] <lulu> George^Deka: and then the doc team can say what is possible to meet the Hoary deadline?
[03:29] <George^Deka> lulu: sure ill do that, better join the list then - enrico just make sure you summarize what im doing its 1:30am here now
[03:29] <enrico> George^Deka: summarize what you're doing?
[03:30] <lulu> enrico: if we can have minutes of the meeting with action points, deadline and who is responsible on the wiki - that would be awesome.
[03:30] <enrico> lulu: sure: it's my job to make a resume of this meeting
[03:30] <sivang> enrico : and please do remind me all of the things I promised to do today, so I won't forget? :)
[03:30] <George^Deka> enrico: lulu sumed it up for me
[03:30] <enrico> I'm now a bit slow in answering because I have a very loud brasilian television set right next to me
[03:31] <enrico> sivang: sure
[03:31] <sivang> enrico : after all, this is the secretary cow speaking :)
[03:32] <enrico> Uhm... di we still have things to discuss?
[03:32] <lulu> yes!
[03:32] <enrico> The "Start working" issue?
[03:32] <enrico> Unfortunately, it's not my house
[03:32] <lulu> guys - FrontPage - plovs has worked hard on this - we've pretty much incorporated the old front page into APFrontPage.
[03:33] <hornbeck> I say APFrontPage be moved up
[03:33] <lulu> can all check it and approve/advise on changes so we can make it the Canonical FronPage? :o)
[03:33] <lulu> FrontPage that is!
[03:33] <sivang> Would it be ok to agree now on the front page and them make modifications / comments ?
[03:34] <sivang> lulu : you mena this is going to be the new wiki frontpage ?
[03:34] <hornbeck> it looks great to me
[03:34] <lulu> sivang: yup! that's the plan - as a good starting point......
[03:35] <hornbeck> good job plovs, lulu
[03:35] <enrico> Fine for me
[03:35] <sivang> and tanks AP for the good work
[03:36] <lulu> enrico: yes indeedy
[03:36] <enrico> Ok, last point is start working
[03:36] <lulu> plovs_work: ping!
[03:36] <plovs_work> lulu, :-)
[03:37] <lulu> plovs_work: we just wanted to say thanks for your hard work and we can make the page the new FrontPage!
[03:37] <sivang> Maybe a milestone for hoary plan was too harsh,
[03:37] <sivang> what about discussing close goals? 
[03:38] <hornbeck> I thought we would meet again about hoary goals?
[03:39] <lulu> sivang: we have a To Do list on the wiki  - close goals should go on there - Hoary can go on there - perhaps we need to make this a table with person responsible and deadline dates. - http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WikiToDo
[03:39] <enrico> hornbeck: yes.
[03:39] <sivang> ok
[03:39] <enrico> I'd say let's have some minutes for people to post items not in agenda, then close the meeting.
[03:39] <hornbeck> Well I will be compiling the book into its order of the next couple weeks and calling on people to help in areas
[03:40] <hornbeck> I will also start looking at debian docs that could help us and updating them to current
[03:41] <sivang> is anybody keen to take up some work on pollishing documentation that already ships with Ubuntu?
[03:41] <enrico> sivang: That can do together with the Debian teem
[03:42] <George^Deka> well i may have a try at a fx doc as i mentioned on mailing list. But what else needs doing cause i dont have any doc work yet
[03:42] <enrico> adding/fixing manpages and other doucmentation inside packages
[03:42] <sivang> ok, and what about gnome-user-docs ?
[03:43] <sivang> this is more than merely the user manual
[03:44] <lulu> do you have a WartyWarthogDoc page where all the tasks are listed - what docs need work? then people can methodically go through them and take responsibility for what they are keen to do?
[03:44] <sivang> lulu : good idea :)
[03:44] <sivang> lulu : I had something similar on the /UDP pages,
[03:45] <sivang> lulu : I will break things down and try put them in the relavent places for HOary
[03:45] <sivang> I might need some help with that , though
[03:45] <lulu> sivang: great - then each release can have it's goals set out by the doc team and the dev team can collaborate with doc team on it.
[03:45] <sivang> yes
[03:45] <sivang> enrico : what do you think?
[03:45] <hornbeck> lulu: great idea
[03:46] <lulu> great!  guys I have to go in 5 - are we almost done?
[03:47] <sivang> seems so
[03:47] <hornbeck> same, here: work is calling
[03:47] <sivang> enrico ?
[03:47] <enrico> sure
[03:47] <lulu> enrico: thanks very much!
[03:47] <enrico> I declare the meeting finished, then.  I will post the summary in the ubuntu-doc list as soon as I have it
[03:47] <enrico> The Holy Cow moos
[03:47] <hornbeck> enrico: thanks
[03:48] <hornbeck> thanks everyone, great meeting
[03:48] <lulu> :o) thanks all! Great to meet u guys.
[03:48] <plovs_work> ok, thanks all!
[03:48] <George^Deka> now its time for bed :P
[03:48] <sivang> thank you everybody
[03:48] <sivang> night George^Deka
[03:48] <sivang> lamont_r : we have just ajorned 
[03:48] <sivang> :)
[03:49] <enrico> Thanks everyone for attending, look forward to the oncoming work!
[03:49] <lamont_r> sivang: 's ok.
[03:50] <hornbeck> well I am off to work
[03:50] <hornbeck> goodbye for now
[03:51] <plovs_work> see you all in #ubuntu-doc !
[03:51] <lulu> enrico: will u talk to sparkes asap? it would be a shame to have him go
[03:51] <enrico> lulu: yes, I'll see what I can do
[03:51] <George^Deka> did you see his resignation mail
[03:51] <ChrisH> lulu: he has already posted on -doc. :(
[03:51] <enrico> oh
[03:52] <ChrisH> I wasn't sure whether it was a joke. Obviously he was serious about it.
[03:52] <lulu> ChrisH: oh dear - he must've been very cheesed off....
[03:52] <sivang> yes
[03:53] <sivang> I reckon he didn't take so good the jokes me and horbeck made on account of the debian works
[03:53] <sivang> I mean, he eventually said it was due to lack of time 
[03:53] <sivang> but..
[03:55] <sivang> I just dind't understand why he said "everybody" where against his plans, I never said something against working up debiand docs
[03:55] <ChrisH> Is he the "interface person" regarding the interchange of documentation between Debian and Ubuntu?
[03:56] <sivang> I think that is George^Deka
[03:57] <plovs_work> ChrisH, enrico is the interface, most of the time
[03:57] <sivang> if I recall right the backlog
[03:57] <sivang> at least he said he voulneteers for that
[03:58] <plovs_work> that is right
[04:02] <plovs_work> so guys, maybe you can start looking at the FrontPage, and flame away (in the mailinglist)