[04:07] <pl0vs> WW, hi
[04:34] <WW> pl0vs: Hey there.  I was away lighting the fire.
[04:51] <pl0vs> just finished cleaning up some more pages
[04:53] <WW> I noticed!  Looks like you're keeping busy :)
[04:54] <pl0vs> there is still a lot to be done before we have really good docs
[04:56] <pl0vs> we still have lots of empty pages
[04:57] <WW> What happened to your "minimalist" Front Page?
[04:57] <pl0vs> upstream preferred a less minimalistic approach
[04:58] <pl0vs> it's not too bad, a little full but well, that;s how it is
[04:58] <WW> Ah.  I haven't check what most of the links contain, but it looks like a lot of it should be static content on the regular web page.
[04:58] <pl0vs> the philosophy is, within 3 links you are on the destination, that is hard with very little links
[04:59] <WW> So the preference is wide, shallow trees.
[04:59] <pl0vs> yes, like nautilus
[05:00] <pl0vs> i am more used to deeper trees, but i can see the logic
[05:00] <pl0vs> at least i got icons :)
[05:01] <WW> "Policies & Procedures", "Promotion & Events", "Releases"... would it make sense for these to be on the main page? 
[05:01] <pl0vs> how is the faq going?
[05:02] <pl0vs> Procedures, is used by devs
[05:02] <pl0vs> Releases, has lots of docs behind it
[05:02] <WW> Well, whatever, I'm sure there are good reasons...
[05:03] <pl0vs> Promotions & Events is empty, but lulu insisted on it, we can always (re)move it later if it does not get used
[05:03] <pl0vs> no 1 reason, we needed a new page fast, that's done
[05:04] <WW> The FAQ, however, seems to have moved down the tree a bit... but I guess it is still within three clicks to get to it. :)
[05:04] <pl0vs> but it used to be twice as long
[05:04] <WW> Maybe Lulu should google for YAGNI.
[05:04] <pl0vs> the FAQ needs to be on the frontpage
[05:05] <pl0vs> i like kiss
[05:06] <WW> What's the latest on macros (or something equivalent) in ReST or moin or whatever...
[05:06] <pl0vs> it will balance out over time, i think some things will move to support, and FrontPage will shrink to nice and minimal
[05:07] <pl0vs> they *still* have not finished installing the site, it still is slow, and caches badly, so no time to code :(
[05:07] <pl0vs> ReST hast some sort of TOC but it is turned of
[05:07] <WW> I have a couple small things that I would add to the FAQ, but without some sort of TOC, the page is already too long.
[05:08] <pl0vs> i will bug lulu (again) on monday
[05:08] <pl0vs> maybe an idea is to remove some stuff, as it is also covered somewhere else
[05:08] <pl0vs> like mono, maybe a link will do
[05:09] <pl0vs> mp3 has a page as well
[05:09] <pl0vs> i think you should add (good) points, gives us more reasons for a TOC
[05:11] <pl0vs> and feel free to make remarks about the FrontPage, it is not yet finished, a wiki never is
[05:11] <pl0vs> (just as long you don't ditch all my icons)
[05:11] <WW> ...otherwise it wouldn't be a wiki! :)
[05:11] <pl0vs> :)
[05:11] <pl0vs> right!
[05:11] <pl0vs> no reason to be overly attached to some page
[05:11] <WW> Have you just been collecting icons from the web, snagging whatever looks good?
[05:12] <pl0vs> no, it is all legal
[05:12] <WW> (and is free, of course)
[05:12] <pl0vs> i spoke with jimmac and the gnome people
[05:12] <pl0vs> it is all theirs, and Aaron made one icon
[05:13] <WW> Ah, cool.
[05:13] <pl0vs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/IconsPage
[05:13] <pl0vs> i especially like http://jimmac.musichall.cz/ikony.php3
[05:13] <pl0vs> i really like the way jimmac draws
[05:14] <pl0vs> it is my absolute favourite, better then mac kde anything (i think)
[05:14] <WW> I agree, pretty slick.
[05:15] <pl0vs> but again, feel free to make recommendations etc, just don't steel icons from apple or so ;) they get easily aggitated
[05:15] <pl0vs> and add your own off course
[05:15] <WW> Right.
[05:16] <pl0vs> what you might do is add a toc by hand in ReST
[05:17] <pl0vs> it is a pain off course but better then nothing maybe, i don't know
[05:17] <WW> I thought about doing that (like the test I put in the WikiSandBox), but a simple TableOfContents macro would make all the work instantly obsolete!
[05:17] <pl0vs> [[TableOfContents] ]  we miss you
[05:17] <WW> That's why I've been waiting to see what happens.
[05:18] <pl0vs> don't hold your breath, things move slooow
[05:19] <WW> Also, I suspect completely rewriting the FAQ in ReST might make some people unhappy.
[05:19] <pl0vs> i believe in meritocracy
[05:20] <pl0vs> you work, you choose
[05:20] <pl0vs> i only make ReST pages
[05:20] <pl0vs> if people don't like it, then they should type faster
[05:20] <pl0vs> i think you are the only one touching the FAQ atm
[05:20] <WW> And you know, the FAQ hasn't changed in quite a while... maybe it
[05:21] <WW> it's time for a shake-up.
[05:21] <pl0vs> just make it as clear as possible, maybe like: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[05:22] <pl0vs> look in the source
[05:22] <WW> I'll take a look...
[05:22] <pl0vs> if somebody complains, tell them to complain in the doc-list
[05:23] <pl0vs> and i will definately flame them for it
[10:39] <sivang> morning folks :)
[10:40] <ChrisH> sivang: moin
[10:40] <sivang> Have fun ChrishH
[10:43] <sivang> morning pl0vs
[12:43] <ChrisH> Heck. Those other customers in the supermarket behave like it's the last day they every can buy something.
[01:09] <sivang> ChrisH : this happens in germeny also ???
[01:09] <sivang> I thought this was centric to Israel only haha
[02:26] <ChrisH> hi, hornbeck :)
[02:27] <hornbeck> Hey ChrisH
[02:27] <hornbeck> I just got done with your great backlog
[02:27] <sivang> Hi JOHN!
[02:27] <sivang> what;s up?
[02:28] <ChrisH> I was pretty surprised that it still worked this morning. :)
[02:28] <hornbeck> hey sivang
[02:28] <sivang> what do you think of our newly addition to the doc team? the amazing ChrisH :) ?
[02:28] <hornbeck> I think he is great
[02:28] <ChrisH> sivang: Put down the "Applause" sign, please. :)
[02:28] <sivang> haha
[02:28] <hornbeck> sorry I have not been around
[02:28] <hornbeck> I had a hot water tank bust, had to tear out a wall to get to it, and still am not done
[02:28] <ChrisH> Any features that you would like to see in the log?
[02:28] <sivang> ah
[02:29] <hornbeck> I should be back to full speed monday
[02:29] <sivang> no problem,
[02:29] <sivang> after all it *is* the weekend
[02:29] <sivang> :)
[02:29] <hornbeck> well this crap has been going on since wednesday
[02:29] <hornbeck> :-)
[02:29] <hornbeck> one crappy weekend
[02:30] <hornbeck> does anyone else use a laptop with Ubuntu?
[02:30] <ChrisH> Yes.
[02:30] <hornbeck> does it drain your battery fast?
[02:30] <hornbeck> I have dual battery and it just goes fast
[02:30] <ChrisH> Toshiba Satellite - works well. The Toshiba Tecra at work doesn't do power management and has audio trouble though. Already told mjg59.
[02:31] <ChrisH> Didn't try it that long though. KDE on Debian Sarge worked a lot better IMHO.
[02:31] <hornbeck> I am on a dell 600m and everything works just uses alot of power
[02:31] <ChrisH> But laptops and linux is a hard issue.
[02:31] <hornbeck> yeah it is
[02:32] <sivang> hornbeck : uptill now, it has drained my battery,
[02:32] <sivang> heat up the system
[02:32] <sivang> work slow as HELLLL
[02:32] <sivang> :)
[02:32] <sivang> I reverted to debian sarge on the laptop for the meanwhile
[02:32] <hornbeck> ahh
[02:32] <sivang> But I might give another chance for Ubuntu on the laptop,
[02:32] <sivang> using only ext3 filesystem.
[02:33] <ChrisH> And I also have Sid still on this PC because I need to do debian package maintenance. There are fewer workstations on ubuntu than I wanted to have.
[02:33] <hornbeck> Hoary made my laptop heat up fast
[02:33] <sivang> there have been reports that XFS / resierfs have several issues
[02:33] <sivang> unclosed ones :)
[02:33] <sivang> which might cause excessive disk activity etc.
[02:33] <hornbeck> I have all my stuff on Ubuntu at the moment
[02:33] <sivang> ChrisH : I have only one desktop system (the strongest of them all here) with Ubuntu.
[02:33] <hornbeck> yeah I reverted to ext3 and it works alittle better
[02:33] <ChrisH> Isn't reiserfs going commercial anyway?
[02:33] <sivang> everything else is using debian
[02:34] <sivang> commercial?
[02:34] <sivang> you mean, they change thier license?
[02:34] <ChrisH> I thought I read something that reiserfs4 is no longer bsd/gpl.
[02:34] <sivang> I thought they were to stay GPL
[02:34] <hornbeck> reiserfs has two licenses
[02:34] <ChrisH> reiserfs has screwed a lot of data here. I'm staying on ext3 although xfs is really fast on the proxys.
[02:34] <hornbeck> gpl, and a I won't tell if you are using it license
[02:36] <sivang> as soon as XFS gets more stable ,
[02:36] <sivang> for a more wide range of hardware - e.g. laptops etc.
[02:36] <sivang> that would be cool.
[02:36] <sivang> I am using reiserfs for /
[02:36] <sivang> XFS for /home
[02:36] <sivang> and ext3 for /boot
[02:36] <sivang> on this desktop
[02:37] <sivang> with full fledged Ubuntu.
[02:37] <sivang> but this is a 2.6Gigs HT 512MB machine
[02:37] <sivang> with 2 7200RPM, ATA100 harddrives.
[02:37] <sivang> ubuntu nearly "killed" the dell inspiron 8200 :)
[02:37] <ChrisH> btw, why is there no german home page for ubuntu yet? ubuntulinux.de has already been registered. Could I help with that?
[02:38] <ChrisH> Ubuntu is slowly becoming famous over here.
[02:38] <sivang> ChrisH : talk to mako, he is your man. oh, and lulu ofcourse.
[02:38] <sivang> There are quite some very nice germen people already on the project, which might help you set up it
[02:38] <hornbeck> boy, you have to love coffee
[02:39] <sivang> mako deals with everything community, and lulu is the site(s) admin :)
[02:39] <sivang> I love REDMUG
[02:39] <ChrisH> mako also from canonical?
[02:39] <sivang> yes
[02:39] <ChrisH> k
[02:40] <sivang> he's the community guy 
[02:41] <hornbeck> brb, reading the gnome planet site
[02:45] <sivang> hornbeck : you on black coffe there?
[02:47] <sivang> ah cappuccino is great, although bit expansive here comapred to other stuff
[02:47] <hornbeck> sivang: alittle milk, alittle suger
[02:49] <sivang> on the black? I prefer it traditional arabic black, we call it "mud" coffe here - because it sinks to the bottom of the glass and looks like mud :)
[02:49] <sivang> there is also an arabic/hindo spice there - "Hel"
[02:49] <sivang> it adds bits of bitterness and spice to the coffe
[02:49] <hornbeck> we have coffee
[02:50] <hornbeck> I never buy different coffee
[02:50] <hornbeck> folgers is what I buy
[02:51] <sivang> can you send a link ? pic ?
[02:52] <hornbeck> of the coffee?
[02:52] <sivang> yes
[02:52] <sivang> :)
[02:52] <sivang> or the package
[02:52] <hornbeck> http://www.folgers.com/
[02:53] <ChrisH> We should open #ubuntu-coffee for the morning chitchat. :)
[02:53] <hornbeck> yes
[02:54] <sivang> yeah :)
[02:56] <sivang> ah cool
[02:56] <sivang> you seen this:
[02:56] <sivang> http://www.folgers.com/blend/index.shtml
[02:58] <hornbeck> no I don't really look around coffee sites much
[03:00] <hornbeck> I am folgers french roast
[03:02] <hornbeck> well I am going to be out for a second to read email
[03:02] <hornbeck> back in about ten minutes
[03:06] <sivang> who are the other guy besides sparkes that is no longer on the doc team?
[03:09] <sivang> is John Levin still with us?
[03:10] <sivang> or was it ben edwards who signed off ?
[03:17] <hornbeck> ben edwards
[03:17] <hornbeck> he said he may start helping again when he has time
[03:18] <sivang> ok, no prob.
[03:18] <sivang> so Levin still with us?
[03:18] <sivang> you happen to have his email? (I am working on the main site docteam page)
[03:19] <hornbeck> let me see if I can pull it up real quick
[03:20] <hornbeck> john@technolalia.org
[03:20] <hornbeck> damn that will be logged and posted to a website
[03:21] <sivang> why is that a problem?
[03:21] <sivang> :)
[03:21] <hornbeck> damn spam spiders
[03:22] <sivang> oh shit
[03:22] <sivang> I didn't realize
[03:22] <sivang> :(
[03:22] <hornbeck> yeah
[03:22] <sivang> ChrisH : you have an idea ?
[03:22] <sivang> how we might protect ourselves ?
[03:22] <hornbeck> hornbeck@SPAMFREEfreeshell.org
[03:22] <sivang> oh
[03:23] <hornbeck> or hornbeck at freeshell dot org
[03:23] <sivang> we should be foastering this way of discussion URLs agreed
[03:24] <hornbeck> huh?
[03:27] <hornbeck> well guys I am off for now, have to get this hotwater tank in
[03:27] <hornbeck> I will try to get back on and get some work done later
[03:27] <sivang> c'ya !
[03:27] <hornbeck> monday starts "get the book going good" week :-)
[03:27] <hornbeck> later
[04:01] <ChrisH> sivang: if you use an email account on my server you will hardly get any spam
[04:01] <ChrisH> sivang: I'm an active in the "anti-spam scene" and have built up good measures to block off spammers.
[04:02] <ChrisH> sivang: half of my incoming emails are spam. But I only get one spam per day and 100 ham mails.
[04:03] <ChrisH> sivang: I could as well create sivang@member.of.ubuntu.and.sick.of.spam.workaround.org :) But that's probably overkill.
[04:03] <sivang> yes it would be an overkill :)
[04:11] <sivang> hey WW
[04:15] <WW> Hi there
[04:16] <WW> If you have a minute, take a look at NewFAQTest on the wiki (and compare to FrequentlyAskedQuestions).
[04:19] <sivang> I will, later, I have to go for about 30 minutes :)
[06:16] <sivang> boy, the new FAQ by WW sure looks good, have you given it a look ChrisH ?
[06:16] <sivang> hey kevin!
[06:16] <sivang> I'm sorry I havn't been responsive to your inquiries,
[06:16] <kmulligan> greets
[06:16] <ChrisH> sivang: I have. Two broken links. But looks good otherwise.
[06:16] <ChrisH> kmulligan: Cheers.
[06:17] <kmulligan> Greets all :)
[06:17] <sivang> kmulligan : if you'd like, mail me at sivan@workaround.org, with stuff you require from me and I will follow it item by item :)
[06:17] <kmulligan> what do you mean stuff i require?
[06:20] <sivang> hmm, in relation to linuxinto primerily
[06:20] <sivang> we "talked" a bit on the wiki
[06:21] <sivang> Oh, and I thought it would be better clarify that the LinuxInto / StartingTheJoureny doesn't intend to be a practical guide,
[06:22] <sivang> I inted to discuss the background a user needs to know prior to even using a howto or a tutorial for practical benefits.
[06:22] <sivang> but, the input you provided could very well serve me on a sequal to that doc,
[06:22] <kmulligan> ah
[06:23] <sivang> in a form of something more practical or get merged into FirstSteps which is currently very very basic
[06:23] <sivang> oh
[06:27] <sivang> and I recalled you asked me something about making special keyboard keys work under X
[06:27] <sivang> I will momentarily send you a nice link,
[06:27] <sivang> sec.
[06:27] <kmulligan> i think it was just how to switch workspaces
[06:27] <kmulligan> i found it and put it on linuxintrowishes
[06:27] <kmulligan> ctrl + alt + <-- or -->
[06:28] <kmulligan> the only other thing than that was getting mouse 3/4/5 to work
[06:31] <sivang> yes,
[06:31] <sivang> well this part invloves some 2 utilities from X.
[06:31] <sivang> one in which you capture the key codes the keys on the mouse would produce,
[06:32] <sivang> the other sets up a specific program or alike to react to it,
[06:34] <kmulligan> ok
[06:34] <sivang> frankyl, I have used it mostly in XMMS as the reciving application has to implement some kind of interaction with the fireing up process from X
[06:44] <plovs> hi guys
[06:45] <ChrisH> plovs: skol
[06:46] <kmulligan> greets
[06:47] <plovs> kmulligan, so you found your way to irc?
[06:47] <kmulligan> indeed
[06:47] <plovs> nie!
[06:47] <plovs> nice! 
[06:48] <kmulligan> ive used it before, just didn't know if one came loaded
[06:48] <ChrisH> Is there another place than the IRC?
[06:51] <plovs> ChrisH, nie very usefull, i love irce
[06:52] <ChrisH> IRC is easy to get addicted to.
[06:52] <sivang> hi plovs, what's up?
[06:52] <sivang> I
[06:52] <sivang> Have started to move thing into main site
[06:53] <plovs> sivang, good! 
[06:53] <plovs> i am just looking at what's new, i like the FAQ
[06:53] <plovs> WW is doing a nice job
[06:54] <plovs> NewFAQTest
[06:57] <sivang> I think we should move the faq by WW to be official faq, it's very nice
[06:58] <ChrisH> Is there someone following ubuntu-doc and putting that up in the faq?
[06:58] <plovs> yes, he did a good job, looks much better, allthough it needs some more cleaning, some stuff is double in the wiki
[06:58] <ChrisH> Errr. s/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-users/
[06:58] <plovs> ChrisH, ah, ok
[06:58] <plovs> ChrisH, i read only the interisting pieces, it is too much
[06:59] <plovs> WW, hi!
[06:59] <WW> Hey there.
[06:59] <plovs> kust talkning about you
[06:59] <WW> ChrisH: I noticed.  That irclog is awesome.
[06:59] <WW> :)
[07:00] <ChrisH> WW: Bloody lurker! Thanks. :)
[07:00] <ChrisH> plovs: We need to be careful when bashing WW. He's reading us. ;)
[07:01] <plovs> ;)
[07:01] <WW> ChrisH: Nah, not lurking, just joined and then decided to see what was up.
[07:01] <sivang> WW what is your name ? (I am not sure if I know who you are)
[07:01] <plovs> ww, but, nice the new faq
[07:02] <WW> sivang: Warren, but I also use WW on the wiki.
[07:02] <sivang> ah ok 
[07:06] <plovs> WW, you have no icons on your FAQ?
[07:07] <ChrisH> Does anyone know how to use the own portrait directly in the wiki? I didn't found that documented anywhere.
[07:07] <WW> No, I didn't add any icons.  Just converting it to ReST and getting rid of errors was a chore.
[07:08] <WW> But hey, it's a wiki.  Just Fix It (tm).
[07:08] <plovs> ChrisH, no, you can link it back to your homepage, but that's all
[07:08] <plovs> ChrisH, name-linking doesn't work either yet
[07:08] <plovs> in the changes page i mean
[07:09] <ChrisH> So I would still put the graphics up somewhere else. Okay.
[07:10] <plovs> you can link it (using ReST) with .. image:: IconSambaShares
[07:10] <plovs> sivang, good idea, do it
[07:10] <plovs> and then preplace IconSambaShares with the link to your head
[07:11] <ChrisH> Have to check that out.
[07:11] <plovs> ChrisH, http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/directives.html#images
[07:12] <ChrisH> Thanks for the link. ReST can be tricky. :)
[07:13] <sivang> WW : what's your real name for sake of list email ? :)
[07:13] <WW> sivang: Warren Weckesser
[07:14] <sivang> WW: thanks. also have you already incorporated the main site
[07:14] <sivang> site's issues into your new wiki?
[07:14] <sivang> this is what I am talking about : http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/faqfolder_view/
[07:14] <WW> sivang: I'm not sure what you mean?
[07:15] <sivang> I mean, were you intending to have your FAQ as the wiki FAQ, or a main support FAQ ?
[07:16] <WW> sivang: It isn't "my" FAQ.  i just converted the existing wiki page FrequentlyAskedQuestions to ReST, so it could have a table of contents. 
[07:16] <sivang> oh ok :) sorry about the misunderstanding.
[07:17] <WW> sivang: I expect the policy would stay the same... someone from Ubuntu could grab whatever they like from the wiki faq and move it to the main site when they find something they like.
[07:17] <plovs> sivang, i still do not understand why we should have two faqs
[07:17] <sivang> plovs : me neither.
[07:17] <plovs> sivang, i think we can do that ourselves actually (move it)
[07:17] <sivang> Ok, I am going to release a post to the list, saying we want WW's
[07:17] <sivang> faq as the official one.
[07:18] <sivang> if I don't get any canonical response,
[07:18] <sivang> I am going to move it there.
[07:18] <plovs> sivang, WW, good idea! what do you think about this:
[07:18] <sivang> the current one, is *ahhem*  sh*t ?
[07:18] <plovs> sivang, agreed
[07:18] <sivang> oopst
[07:18] <sivang> this is documented on ChrisH logs...
[07:18] <sivang> :)
[07:18] <plovs> ;)
[07:18] <WW> sivang: The only problem with the current one is that the TableOfContents macro no longer works.
[07:19] <sivang> I hope nobody notices that ...
[07:19] <WW> sivang: If that macro worked, I would never have done the conversion.
[07:19] <sivang> ChrisH : could you remove this form the log? :-)
[07:19] <plovs> moving the faq to the official one, putting to the wiki: StuffToBePutInTheOfficialWiki
[07:19] <ChrisH> No problem if you want to have some lines removed. Just remember to send your name and expiry date, too. And btw, I don't take American Express any more.
[07:19] <sivang> but siriously, let's take a quick look at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/faqfolder_view/
[07:19] <sivang> ChrisH : hahaha
[07:20] <sivang> No, I stand behind what I just said.
[07:20] <sivang> :)
[07:20] <WW> sivang: Although I do agree that the current Ubuntu FAQ need to be reorganized.
[07:20] <sivang> does anybody think a linux distro FAQ should likke like?
[07:20] <WW> It has just two categories, "Ubuntu" and "Support", which seem meaningless.
[07:21] <sivang> and i *really* don't think it is anyway comparable to http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewFAQTest
[07:21] <sivang> with all do respect.
[07:21] <sivang> Oppinions people? flame? :)
[07:21] <plovs> a faq should be short Frequently does not mean every single possible question
[07:21] <sivang> that's right plovs,
[07:22] <sivang> but do you think some new people can be benefited from using http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/faqfolder_view/ as a start point?
[07:22] <plovs> off course *we* have to figure out how to do it right
[07:22] <sivang> I have a hunch they won't..
[07:22] <plovs> sivang, i have never seen it referred to in #ubuntu or the list
[07:23] <sivang> plovs : you mean nobody even noticed it ? It's linked from Ubuntu's main apge
[07:23] <sivang> page
[07:23] <WW> sivang: I agree.  A new user asks "How do I get Java to work?" , not "What are the unsupported formats and tools?"
[07:23] <plovs> but if we would incorperate WW's FAQ with this faq and link it to the wiki for missing stuff, so it would be one thing then it would be ok
[07:23] <sivang> he doesn't even KNOW what those puzzled words like "restcited format" mean in the context of Ubuntu
[07:23] <plovs> sivang, correct
[07:24] <sivang> I think it's doing a great diservice for peopole just wanting to make *something* work.
[07:24] <plovs> sivang, *I* never read it, btw until just now
[07:24] <sivang> I didn't want to say anything about it,
[07:24] <plovs> i do not like the support section, it is redundant and out-dated
[07:25] <sivang> as I was sure someone from canonical would take care of making it something more similar to the wiki's form of FAQs..
[07:25] <sivang> but now as I look it,
[07:25] <sivang> it's considered as nothing IMHO.
[07:25] <plovs> i think it is considered to be doc-team's job
[07:25] <plovs> meaning yours ;)
[07:26] <sivang> no problem. I will ad this to my TODO :)
[07:26] <sivang> so we would incorporate WW's with what already there, with links to the wiki where applicable ?
[07:27] <plovs> i would like that, ask for consensus on the list, though
[07:27] <plovs> and if WW agrees, off course
[07:27] <sivang> yes ofcourse,
[07:27] <sivang> nothing gets done on the doc team with the consensus thingy :)
[07:28] <plovs> what about a page: StuffToBePutInTheOfficialWiki ?
[07:28] <sivang> plovs : yes, thank you. without all sorts of notes everywhere I get lost :)
[07:29] <sivang> OfficialSite
[07:29] <plovs> and then no faq in the wiki, only one faq
[07:29] <sivang> :)
[07:29] <sivang> yes!!!
[07:29] <plovs> WW, would you like to be the FAQ-man?
[07:29] <sivang> WW : yes, since you've done such a good work, would you?
[07:30] <WW> plovs: But if you simply change the name of StuffToBePutInTheOfficialWiki to FrequentlyAskedQuestions, you end up with the current policy. :)  Which is fine with me.
[07:30] <plovs> well, i think we should move all the good stuff to thr 'real' faq-page and empty this one
[07:31] <WW> Ah, well, if you guys are able to edit the real FAQ, then go for it.
[07:31] <plovs> not only *we*, we are thinking about *you*
[07:31] <plovs> WW, that is
[07:32] <plovs> on the official FAQ
[07:32] <sivang> yes, that would be way cool
[07:32] <plovs> WW, the offical FAQ-representative
[07:32] <WW> plovs: Sorry, I don't think I can be FAQ-man.  I don't have the time or ambition for that kind of committment.
[07:32] <plovs> ah, ok
[07:32] <sivang> plovs : and also adopt the wiki's devide and conquer approahc
[07:33] <ChrisH> Didn't follow it. Are you guys planning to do the FAQ in Docbook or Wiki? The latter is probably hard to handle.
[07:33] <plovs> ChrisH, can we put docbook in the site?
[07:33] <plovs> if we can then docbook would be my #1 choice
[07:34] <plovs> but we need something that shows up on the web as well
[07:34] <ChrisH> I don't know if we needed to just link the XHTML output from Docbook or if it can produce Wiki language.
[07:34] <ChrisH> Is there a way to upload HTML directly instead of using the wiki?
[07:34] <plovs> ChrisH, yes
[07:34] <ChrisH> Wiki is collaborative and nice. But handling large FAQs with TOCs, links and footnotes can become ugly.
[07:35] <WW> Is docbook easy to use?  One point of the wiki FAQ is that anyone can add to it.
[07:35] <plovs> WW, the official faq should be 'locked down' the StuffToBePut.. is open, wiki style
[07:35] <ChrisH> WW: That would not work with Docbook. So it depends on we want it ugly and collaborative or neat and restrictive.
[07:36] <ChrisH> plovs: I agree. A FaqProposedUpdates wiki page would still be needed and would serve as the input for the FAQ man.
[07:36] <plovs> ChrisH, do you have some test docbook file?
[07:36] <sivang> ChrisH : The online official FAQ can be edited with an WYSIWYG editor, very slick
[07:36] <WW> ChrisH: Main ubuntu site: neat and restrictive.  Wiki FAQ: easy but occasionally messy.  (IMHO)
[07:36] <sivang> ChrisH : for the offline FAQ manual, ofcourse I support DocBook
[07:36] <ChrisH> plovs: I'm currently writing the Docbook tutorial I plan to have online in about an hour. That would perhaps give all here a better idea of how it looks.
[07:37] <plovs> ChrisH, is it in docbook?
[07:37] <ChrisH> plovs: the tutorial itself is not in docbook because I intend to wiki it.
[07:37] <ChrisH> sivang: Would be nice to have the FAQ be easily added to Gnome Help and shipped.
[07:37] <plovs> the reason i asked is, you can use html on the site
[07:38] <plovs> if we will do the official documentation in docbook then i would love to have a faq about it
[07:38] <ChrisH> plovs: sounds a little recursive ;)
[07:39] <plovs> you do perl, you must like that kind of stuff
[07:39] <plovs> ;)
[07:39] <sivang> ChrisH : yes ofcourse. I'm planning of taking all the online docs and pacakge them for yelp
[07:39] <ChrisH> plovs: well... :)
[07:39] <ChrisH> sivang: wiki2yelp?
[07:39] <sivang> ChrisH : huh?
[07:39] <WW> I'll split hairs here... I think you might need a docbook HowTo.  After all, how frequently are people asking about using docbook (not counting those crazy doc-team members :)
[07:39] <sivang> ChrisH : you mean from docutlils ?
[07:39] <plovs> ChrisH, docbook2yelp
[07:39] <ChrisH> sivang: How do you plan to do that?
[07:40] <ChrisH> sivang: Just a wild guess. I didn't even know html2yelp exists. :)
[07:40] <ChrisH> plovs: Is there such a thing?
[07:40] <plovs> yes, i *think* so let me find it, brb
[07:40] <sivang> ChrisH : well, hopefully to be assisted by the ReST --> XML script
[07:40] <sivang> then,
[07:40] <plovs> i need beagle
[07:41] <ChrisH> That's the whole trouble with Wikis. It's hard to convert it into anything but HTML.
[07:41] <plovs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HowDoc
[07:41] <plovs> Yelp reads DocBook. OMF files.
[07:41] <sivang> go manual over stuff the didn't go well,
[07:41] <sivang> and then packages it for scrollkeeper
[07:41] <plovs> ChrisH, a question about docbook:
[07:42] <plovs> i can do docbook2html, right?
[07:42] <sivang> ChrisH : if you use ReST on the wiki, it could be *realtively* easy to convert it to xml
[07:42] <plovs> sivang, but there is (not yet) an xml2docbook converter
[07:43] <sivang> so what were all the talking about the easy way to convert from the wiki to docbook ?
[07:43] <sivang> :)
[07:43] <sivang> I need tomboy,
[07:43] <sivang> anybody know how I can find tseng's repo?
[07:44] <plovs> :) in the faq?
[07:44] <plovs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BreakMyUbuntu/view?searchterm=tseng
[07:44] <ChrisH> plovs: yes, docbook to html is trivial. Look at my tutorials at http://workaround.org
[07:44] <plovs> tomboy is really nice, i use it every day
[07:45] <plovs> ok, and we can post html on the site
[07:45] <plovs> that means that we should use docbook for bg things and then convert it and upload it
[07:45] <ChrisH> IMHO it would be nice to have Wiki for most pages ("who is in the doc team", "welcome to ubuntu" and "restricted formats") but use DocBook on larger articles that are potentially needed to be converted.
[07:45] <plovs> and those things can then be used with yelp
[07:45] <ChrisH> plovs: seconded
[07:45] <plovs> cool
[07:46] <plovs> sivang, find it?
[07:46] <sivang> not yet,
[07:46] <plovs> ChrisH, i intend to study docbook today (my wife is out of town, i have free time)
[07:46] <sivang> searching...
[07:47] <plovs> sivang, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BreakMyUbuntu
[07:47] <plovs> ChrisH, what do you use to write docbook, emacs?
[07:47] <sivang> emacs is great at docbook
[07:47] <sivang> but I think he's using VI :)
[07:48] <ChrisH> plovs: There is a reasonably nice plugin for XML in the vim.
[07:48] <plovs> nice, i use vim
[07:48] <ChrisH> plovs: You may even want to take a look at conglomerate.
[07:48] <plovs> ChrisH, conglomerate crashed on me
[07:50] <plovs> ChrisH, article, book or set?
[07:51] <ChrisH> plovs: article
[07:51] <sivang> Darn, am in the middle of hoary upgrade
[07:51] <sivang> pkg file is locked
[07:51] <sivang> plovs : found it , thanks.
[07:51] <ChrisH> Let me put up the first part of the Wiki entry already. Looks like it could prove helpful already.
[07:52] <sivang> ChrisH : wiki entry of what? :)
[07:52] <WW> ChrisH: Where are you putting it?
[07:52] <WW> ChrisH: wait, nevermind...
[07:52] <ChrisH> sivang: DocBook
[07:52] <plovs> ChrisH, that would be nice
[07:52] <sivang> ChrisH : oh, it's finished ?
[07:53] <ChrisH> sivang: Nearly. The first part would allow everyone here to understand the abbreviations and get a "hello world" document compiled.
[07:54] <plovs> i'll write a doc, and publish it to the wiki, see if it's as good as they say it is ;)
[07:54] <sivang> plovs : about what?
[07:55] <plovs> as a test, probably about something important
[07:55] <plovs> about icons, i think
[07:56] <sivang> ChrisH : I would also appriciate a tutorial for doing docbook in VIM, using "reasonably nice plugin for XML in the vim."
[07:56] <sivang> :)
[07:56] <sivang> if it's not already how you're tutorial is put , as a vim guy
[07:59] <ChrisH> sivang: No problem. :) already here in draft form
[07:59] <ChrisH> Can anybody tell me how to use something like <pre>...</pre> in ReST?
[08:00] <ChrisH> Ah... literal block I guess. "::"
[08:00] <sivang> plovs is our rest expert
[08:00] <sivang> :)
[08:01] <sivang> I have yet to do a single doc in it,
[08:01] <sivang> I might as well start with DocBook altogether
[08:25] <ChrisH> Anyone reading it? :)
[08:25] <WW> ChrisH: Looks like a nice start.  For those of us too lazy to install everything right away, is it possible to add a link to the HTML version of you Hello World example?
[08:26] <sivang> looks very nice
[08:26] <ChrisH> WW: Sure. Where shall I put it?
[08:26] <ChrisH> sivang: tnx
[08:27] <WW> ChrisH: Can you make 'test.html' a link right there in the page?
[08:27] <ChrisH> WW: To another wiki page?
[08:27] <WW> ChrisH: I don't know.  Is it possible to upload the html file to the wiki?
[08:29] <WW> I haven't tried uploading a complete html file to the wiki... don't know if you can do that.  Anybody?
[08:29] <sivang> hoary is crawling into my system.....
[08:29] <ChrisH> WW: I have put it on workaround.org - who cares
[08:29] <sivang> WW : there's an option when you edit main site pages
[08:35] <WW> ChrisH: Thanks.  I'll be using your page when I start experimenting with DocBook for a project of mine.
[08:36] <WW> Time to go...  but who knows, maybe I'll be lurking...  :)
[08:36] <ChrisH> WW: DocBook has own tags for generating FAQs. Should I provide an example for out internal use?
[08:36] <ChrisH> *our
[08:36] <sivang> arggh
[08:37] <ChrisH> sivang: okay, okay, I won't, I promise!
[08:37] <sivang> hoary started to break things for me, I'm headed to a reboot :)
[08:37] <WW> ChrisH: That would be interesting to see.
[08:37] <pl0vs> ok, back online
[08:37] <sivang> that wasn't intented for you ChrisH :)
[08:37] <WW> Later, y'all.
[08:37] <ChrisH> sivang: I know. :)
[08:37] <ChrisH> WW: l8r
[08:37] <pl0vs> see ya WW
[08:37] <sivang> I arrgheed at hoary breaking my mozilla-firefox
[08:37] <sivang> C'ya WW
[08:38] <pl0vs> ChrisH, nice to see that the log now has autoscroll as well. Super!
[08:38] <ChrisH> pl0vs: for the lazy of us :)
[08:39] <pl0vs> sivang, you are going to the conference?
[08:41] <sivang> I wish, I am not sure yet for the travel expanses if I can handle them,
[08:41] <sivang> but I am checking possibilities.
[08:42] <ChrisH> Which conference is it?
[08:42] <pl0vs> well, if you go say hi from the doc-team 
[08:43] <sivang> ofcourse!
[08:43] <sivang> I would represent us
[08:43] <sivang> there.
[08:43] <pl0vs> ChrisH, you can escape wiki names with ! like  LaTeX
[08:44] <ChrisH> pl0vs: so they don't become links?
[08:45] <pl0vs> yes
[08:46] <ChrisH> pl0vs: ic
[08:56] <pl0vs> ChrisH, it is easier if commands (xslt etc) are in a box as well, beginning with "bash:~$ " BeagleInstallHowto has nice layout
[08:57] <pl0vs> easier to copy/paste
[08:57] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Okay... I will just finish it. (A dozen more lines.) Then I'll clean it up.
[08:57] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Your original text is still there (commented out) in case you want it included.
[08:59] <pl0vs> ChrisH, nono, yours is much better (despite the fact that it does not have *any* icons whatsover)
[08:59] <sivang> ChrisH : there is going to be a hoary conference in spain on december
[09:00] <pl0vs> ChrisH, i tried it, i'm inpressed
[09:00] <sivang> ChrisH : It would be 2 weeks of hacking, talks etc
[09:00] <pl0vs> now i'll copy it to thw wiki
[09:00] <pl0vs> sivang, sounds really nice
[09:01] <ChrisH> sivang: I didn't know there was an Ubuntu conference. :)
[09:01] <sivang> what are you working on now fellas ?
[09:01] <sivang> ChrisH : all canonical employees are going to be there, together with a bunch of interested folks and related
[09:01] <pl0vs> ChrisH, it's on the frontpage of ubuntulinux and in the wiki in Conference
[09:02] <ChrisH> sivang: Two weeks? That's a long time. Is there so much to discuss?
[09:02] <pl0vs> ChrisH, it's in spain, it's warm, has beaches...
[09:03] <ChrisH> pl0vs: I know spain well. But in December it will hardly be that warm. Northern hemisphere. :)
[09:03] <sivang> ChrisH : I am not sure, but I'm sure mako would have better answers about this, just write to him.
[09:05] <ChrisH> sivang: Not that much on the Agenda, yet.
[09:05] <pl0vs> ChrisH,  still 20+ in the south, atm
[09:05] <pl0vs> btw checkout: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookTestHtml
[09:05] <sivang> he said on the conference page that he would wlecome any questions etc.
[09:05] <pl0vs> i think the ubuntu guys just want to meet, they might never have met before
[09:05] <ChrisH> sivang: I can surely not attend. Both work and family won't allow that. I was very surprised that last year my boss paid the travel for a coworker and me to the LinuxTag.
[09:06] <sivang> ChrisH : what company do you work for ?
[09:06] <ChrisH> sivang: www.otto.com / www.otto.de
[09:06] <pl0vs> really? my mum buys there
[09:07] <ChrisH> pl0vs: I have been to the CCCongress for five years until 1999. But with the time there was less hacking (in the productive meaning) but more pr0n leeching. :(
[09:07] <pl0vs> ChrisH,  at otto or linuxtag ?
[09:07] <ChrisH> pl0vs: I'm in the network security team there. Usually it's fun. But out management is laying off 25% of all employees. :(
[09:08] <ChrisH> pl0vs: LinuxTag. :)
[09:08] <pl0vs> management, firing people and wanting more work done in the same memo!
[09:08] <pl0vs> bah!
[09:09] <pl0vs> on a more positive note, docbook works great!
[09:09] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Currently no one is doing serious work there. Everybody is waiting who will get fired. We will know that in 03/2005. Gnarr.
[09:09] <pl0vs> i put the html output in the wiki, and it renders ok
[09:09] <sivang> pl0vs : have you followed ChrisH new tutorial?
[09:10] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Cool. And with the stylesheet it looks decent. :)
[09:10] <pl0vs> sivang, yes, test.html: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookTestHtml , renders fine
[09:10] <pl0vs> which means we could write real docs in docbook and then use xslt and put it in the site
[09:11] <pl0vs> ChrisH, can you add a links section? with the docbook site etc
[09:11] <ChrisH> pl0vs: just that people needed to know that the source is docbook so they would not start changing the html code
[09:11] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Yes.
[09:12] <ChrisH> At first I found that DocBook/XML was a bad joke. Mostly because most of the programs I got recommended did not work at all. Where couldn't there just be a "do this and that" and a few pointers?
[09:12] <pl0vs> we would put that stuff not in the wiki but in the support section
[09:12] <ChrisH> pl0vs: (excuse my ignorance) support section?
[09:13] <ChrisH> Great advantage of DocBook: we could have it checked in and out in CVS or SVN because it's plain text.
[09:13] <pl0vs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/support the 'official' documentation
[09:14] <pl0vs> hornbeck is setting up svn/cvs for us (doc-team)
[09:14] <pl0vs> Fedora uses it as well, they have graet looking docs
[09:14] <pl0vs> with one style-sheet it all looks the same, really good
[09:15] <ChrisH> Who has permissions to edit the support page? Only canonical?
[09:16] <pl0vs> doc-team as well, meaning we do
[09:16] <ChrisH> Perhaps one day I qualify for edit access, too. No hurry. :)
[09:17] <pl0vs> you already have edit-access
[09:17] <pl0vs> everybody has
[09:17] <ChrisH> pl0vs: not for the support area
[09:17] <pl0vs> it's just not common knowledge
[09:18] <sivang> you have
[09:18] <sivang> yes, everybody has
[09:18] <sivang> :)
[09:18] <ChrisH> Do you see an "Edit" button at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/support ? Or do I need to use the "secret edit link"?
[09:19] <pl0vs> go to documentation/howto's
[09:19] <sivang> you need to create an account
[09:19] <sivang> and then log in
[09:20] <ChrisH> There I get an edit link. Just not for the parent pages it seems.
[09:20] <pl0vs> no only admin can edit those
[09:20] <sivang> after you logged in,
[09:21] <ChrisH> canonical probably does not want a kid to screw the main support page.
[09:26] <sivang> sec, checking
[09:28] <sivang> I seem to be able to edit all support pages :)
[09:28] <sivang> which page do you want to edit?
[09:28] <sivang> Tell me what you want to edit and I will add it, ChrisH
[09:29] <ChrisH> Nothing concrete. Just looking for a place to insert WW's Docbookified FAQ later.
[09:30] <sivang> strange.
[09:30] <sivang> I could edit those last night
[09:30] <sivang> it seems locked now
[09:30] <sivang> my "edit" bar is gone!!!
[09:30] <sivang> maybe someone saw how I referenced the current official faq ? :)
[09:31] <ChrisH> sivang: Thanks a lot, sivang. You screwed for all of us! ;)
[09:32] <sivang> ahh, found it
[09:32] <sivang> it was all my human error
[09:32] <pl0vs> :)
[09:32] <sivang> :)
[09:32] <sivang> this is how to do it
[09:32] <sivang> :
[09:33] <sivang> from https://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/
[09:33] <sivang> click on the specific square you're interested in,
[09:33] <sivang> then you can edit it
[09:33] <sivang> you can even add a new item to it
[09:38] <pl0vs> ChrisH, and it works great with vim as well
[09:38] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Did you install the xmledit plugin?
[09:39] <pl0vs> ChrisH, yes
[09:40] <pl0vs> ChrisH, would a page like: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BitTorrent be possible with docbook?
[09:40] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Why not? What is special about it?
[09:41] <pl0vs> code, looks like code, a note is a note etc?
[09:41] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Look at http://workaround.org/articles/ispmail-sarge/
[09:42] <ChrisH> pl0vs: I used my own style sheet. But basically there are notes (even different ones: warnings, important, notices) and terminal input.
[09:43] <pl0vs> i read that one already ;) this is nice stuff indeed
[09:44] <pl0vs> they have good looking stuff: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/
[09:44] <ChrisH> I'm currently putting together this extra page: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBookReference
[09:44] <pl0vs> they also use docbook i noticed
[09:45] <pl0vs> ChrisH, nice
[09:45] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Yes
[09:45] <ChrisH> pl0vs: And it fits nicely into the rest of my workaround.org pages
[09:45] <ChrisH> pl0vs: So it does not necessarily need to look as ugly as the debian documentation. :P
[09:46] <pl0vs> that is what i was wondering about, redhat looks great but is not high quality, debian the other way around
[09:47] <pl0vs> i would like to be a bit of both
[09:47] <pl0vs> No, the other bit!
[09:47] <ChrisH> Documentation is fine. But ugly documentation is not funny to read.
[09:47] <sivang> ChrisH : it looks again, superb
[09:47] <sivang> I wanna do DocBook also, waiting for my mentor to finish up with his first student :)
[09:47] <pl0vs> ChrisH, will you explain the meaning of the tags somewhere? or is there a good doc somewhere?
[09:48] <ChrisH> pl0vs: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBookReference
[09:48] <pl0vs> eg keywordset
[09:48] <ChrisH> pl0vs: incomplete though. I'll include links to the "real" docs
[09:48] <pl0vs> reading http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBookReference atm
[09:48] <ChrisH> This is the real link: http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/
[09:49] <pl0vs> understand everything except keywordset
[09:50] <ChrisH> pl0vs: why?
[09:50] <pl0vs> what is it used for?
[09:50] <pl0vs> keywordset
[09:51] <ChrisH> pl0vs: In HTML the keywords in the header will be generated from that.
[09:51] <pl0vs> ok
[09:52] <pl0vs> btw you have a space too many before all the lines in the example in http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBookReference
[09:52] <pl0vs> it doesn't parse, until you remove the space
[09:53] <ChrisH> pl0vs: haven't saved for a while :)
[09:53] <pl0vs> ok
[09:58] <pl0vs> sivang, where you working on the debian documentation or only horbeck?
[09:59] <sivang> pl0vs : hornbeck and the other new guy, I just suggested we should try and put in shape already shipping docs
[09:59] <sivang> and give back to debian on colliding areas
[10:00] <ChrisH> I'm done with http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBookReference - does it look reasonable to you?
[10:00] <pl0vs> looks nice
[10:00] <pl0vs> i reloaded the page already
[10:01] <pl0vs> i am still missing notes, definitions
[10:02] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Notes are like <important>...
[10:02] <ChrisH> pl0vs: I'll add them.
[10:03] <pl0vs> ChrisH, see http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/s1-xml-admon.html
[10:03] <pl0vs> or can we just use that?
[10:04] <ChrisH> pl0vs: done... what else?
[10:05] <sivang> ChrisH : which pages did you want to go on the front support page ? new xml howto and ?
[10:05] <pl0vs> maybe better like this:
Body of text goes here.</para></note>
[10:06] <pl0vs> ?
[10:06] <ChrisH> pl0vs: done :)
[10:06] <ChrisH> sivang: uh?
[10:06] <pl0vs> i can't reload this fast!
[10:06] <sivang> ChrisH : wanted to link from "latest" howtos to your new docbook one
[10:07] <pl0vs> niiice!
[10:07] <ChrisH> I start to get a hang on ReST markup. :)
[10:08] <sivang> nice page , I'm stunned
[10:09] <ChrisH> I would write more but I have no idea of dragons really. :)
[10:11] <pl0vs> now we need a list of stuff they want to be done for yelp
[10:12] <sivang> pl0vs : we need to first see if the already shipping stuff is current, and make a new start page for the first yelp doc that is presented when you fire it up
[10:12] <ChrisH> pl0vs: to convert docbook to yelp?
[10:12] <sivang> yelp is using docbook,
[10:12] <sivang> just with some custom XSLT
[10:12] <ChrisH> natively?
[10:12] <sivang> yes
[10:12] <ChrisH> ah, ok
[10:12] <sivang> :)
[10:13] <pl0vs> yelp uses docbook imo
[10:13] <sivang> you can just check out some gnom
[10:13] <sivang> docs sources
[10:13] <sivang> for example, the controversial gnome2-user-guide
[10:13] <sivang> :)
[10:13] <pl0vs> sivang,  how, what from where?
[10:13] <pl0vs> using cvs?
[10:13] <sivang> pl0vs : also,
[10:14] <pl0vs> howto?
[10:14] <sivang> and you can just look it in your system - although that would be the 2.6 docs afaik
[10:14] <sivang> lemme see where is the scrollkeeper conf files..
[10:15] <sivang> or where are the actual docbook file for this manual.
[10:17] <sivang> /usr/share/gnome/help/user-guide/C/user-guide.xml
[10:18] <sivang> I am not sure if XSLT is the right word for what it uses,
[10:18] <sivang> it's standard DocBOok,
[10:18] <sivang> but yelp has it's own way of rendering stuff
[10:18] <sivang> XSLT defines the way the resulting page looks?
[10:20] <ChrisH> There is probably an XSLT to transform the DocBook/XML into yelp format.
[10:20] <ChrisH> Same procedure as with html
[10:20] <sivang> XSLT defines in which images/ rendering the resulting page should use?
[10:21] <sivang> for example, if a "note" should use once icon in standard docbook, and another on yelp's format?
[10:21] <ChrisH> XML + XSLT => output format
[10:22] <ChrisH> You can toggle whether icons are used or just text.
[10:22] <ChrisH> http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/Icons.html#d0e4990
[10:38] <ChrisH> this is a docbook FAQ: http://workaround.org/ubuntu/faq.html
[10:38] <ChrisH> feedback?
[10:39] <ChrisH> (Still needs some nice stylesheet of course. Just plain HTML.)
[10:42] <sivang> nice
[10:42] <sivang> we should use the main site's style sheet
[10:42] <pl0vs> looks good, what does the docbook source look like?
[10:42] <sivang> ChrisH, anyway I'm starting with your docbook tutorial, does it say there how to use vim for docbook?
[10:43] <ChrisH> sivang: yup
[10:43] <sivang> k, great
[10:43] <ChrisH> pl0vs: see workaround.org/ubuntu/faq.xml
[10:44] <ChrisH> pl0vs: By the way... the xmledit plugin has nice features. Enter "<para>>" in insert mode. :)
[10:44] <pl0vs> ChrisH, i don't think so...
[10:44] <ChrisH> pl0vs: ?
[10:45] <pl0vs> ChrisH, nice para>>
[10:45] <pl0vs> ChrisH, it gives text only
[10:45] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Use the source, Luke. :)
[10:45] <pl0vs> duh
[10:46] <pl0vs> very nice,maybe this is a better solution for longer docs indeed
[10:47] <ChrisH> pl0vs: especially the automatic generation of the question list with correct links... you had to do that all manually in the wiki
[10:47] <pl0vs> yes, so we only need a good stylesheet then
[10:47] <ChrisH> Should I continue converting the current FAQ?
[10:47] <ChrisH> pl0vs: If you just import the HTML into the wiki? Doesn't it use the stylesheet by default?
[10:48] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Or how did you do it last hour?
[10:48] <pl0vs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookTestHtml does, but we should test it with question/answer and note etc
[10:49] <ChrisH> pl0vs: would you upload the faq test page?
[10:49] <pl0vs> working on it as we speak
[10:49] <ChrisH> Very good, Sir.
[10:51] <pl0vs> no, doesn't work
[10:51] <pl0vs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookTestHtml
[10:51] <ChrisH> But it's plain HTML? What did you do differently?
[10:53] <pl0vs> i'll put in the test again, and then the faq again
[10:57] <ChrisH> Tricky... what would we do with FAQ entries that just point to other Wiki pages? That would not work in the Gnome Help.
[11:00] <pl0vs> it does not work anymore ???
[11:00] <ChrisH> strange
[11:04] <ChrisH> I'm not that sure that having a heavily wiki-linked FAQ is a good thing to be put into Docbook. Opinions?
[11:06] <pl0vs> it works... human error .... 
[11:07] <pl0vs> why do the links not work?
[11:07] <ChrisH> they do here
[11:08] <pl0vs> ah, ok so the faq should be self-supportive for using it in gnome-help
[11:08] <pl0vs> well, then we have to 1) put those pages in help as well or 2) remove the links eg answer in the faq
[11:09] <pl0vs> btw it lokks like ... not so good https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookTestHtml
[11:09] <ChrisH> Putting the whole wiki in the help? Hmmm. Don't like the idea.
[11:09] <pl0vs> well, the linked pages, the top 10
[11:11] <ChrisH> Perhaps we should find a consensus on where the FAQ will be. If it's just a link farm to other Wiki pages then it would make hardly any sense outside of the wiki.
[11:12] <pl0vs> if it needs to be in gnome-help then that won't do...
[11:12] <pl0vs> i'll write to the mailinglist
[11:12] <ChrisH> good
[11:13] <ChrisH> IMHO an FAQ should be self-contained without too many external links
[11:16] <pl0vs> off=course wiki-links can be just external links, that would work: eg https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBook
[11:16] <ChrisH> I did it like that before. If that's what "people" want... okay.
[11:19] <pl0vs> there will always be outside links like: "for more info on working with docbook see: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBook"
[11:19] <pl0vs> or does that look bad
[11:19] <pl0vs> does it work in yelp btw? external links?
[11:19] <ChrisH> Good question.
[11:20] <ChrisH> As i said... I'd always try to make it self-contained.
[11:21] <pl0vs> it does work
[11:21] <pl0vs> it has an outside link to the gpl atm
[11:21] <ChrisH> But is it what we want?
[11:22] <pl0vs> maybe not, it kindoff defeats the whole purpose of putting it in yelp
[11:22] <pl0vs> if you have outside links, you might just ass well use a web-browser
[11:22] <pl0vs> for the whole thing
[11:23] <ChrisH> ...and use the Wiki FAQ :)
[11:23] <pl0vs> right... i'll put it in the question to the list
[11:23] <ChrisH> k
[11:25] <pl0vs> ok, sent
[11:27] <pl0vs> there is something about writing yelp stuff in yelp: Writing ScrollKeeper OMF Files
[11:27] <pl0vs> it looks like docbook, to my untrained eye
[11:28] <pl0vs> ChrisH, are yo urunning ubuntu? atm
[11:29] <ChrisH> pl0vs: not on this PC - but on the laptop
[11:30] <pl0vs> i have this funny thing in yelp, in system - synaptic docs, they show up in spanish?
[11:30] <ChrisH> oops?
[11:31] <pl0vs> that's too bad since it looks like good documentation, better then we have in the wiki
[11:33] <ChrisH> i'll check
[11:34] <pl0vs> this yelp is quite nice!
[11:35] <pl0vs> it even has the python tutorial
[11:36] <ChrisH> my docs are in english
[11:36] <ChrisH> (synaptic)
[11:37] <pl0vs> then maybe it is because i am running remote X through knoppix etc
[11:38] <pl0vs> you see how nice it looks in yelp, with icons and all for notes and warnings?
[11:39] <ChrisH> pl0vs: and still docbook :)
[11:40] <ChrisH> pl0vs: do you know if there is a wysiwyg editor for gnome help documents? I know there is an XSLT but I wonder how developers write their docs
[11:41] <pl0vs> the redhat guys use (and advise to use) emacs
[11:41] <sivang> ChrisH : they use emacs :)
[11:42] <ChrisH> Eeek. I quit!
[11:43] <pl0vs> sivang, do you know where the yelp "home-page" is? on my computer i mean, the first page yelp opens
[11:43] <pl0vs> ChrisH, we can advise vim, for ubuntu
[11:45] <pl0vs> what if we try to make yelp open on first boot, showing the ubuntu-faq, that would be a great help i think
[11:47] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Isn't the link in the panel pointing to it?
[11:47] <sivang> I think we would be better off letting the user choose when he wants "help!" :)
[11:47] <sivang> This could create much annoyance in some larger, non newbie, already linux familiar audience of Ubuntu.
[11:50] <sivang> what have you fine fellows doc team of me been working on my 1hr absence? more docbook stuff?
[11:50] <pl0vs> but only on first bootup, like the kde config wizard
[11:50] <pl0vs> not a good idea?
[11:50] <pl0vs> sivang, only docbook here
[11:50] <sivang> k
[11:51] <sivang> ChrisH : I am sure we could use some wysiwyg editor and have it render yelp's XSLT on the fly , what do you say?
[11:51] <sivang> (we need not stick to emacs as the gnome doc people)
[11:52] <ChrisH> sivang: You want to quickly write an editor for yelp? Nice.
[11:52] <ChrisH> sivang: Done already? ;)
[11:52] <sivang> nono :)
[11:53] <sivang> I thought we could just have some WYSIWYG xml editor use yelp's XSLT and render it for us as a gui editor..
[11:53] <sivang> it isn't possible ?
[11:53] <ChrisH> Wouldn't know how.
[11:54] <sivang> anyway, back again to your DocBook howto
[11:56] <sivang> do you think it would be easy to convert /wiki/StartingTheJourney to docbook? it
[11:56] <sivang> plain MoinMoin markup
[11:56] <pl0vs> ChrisH, if you make an alias between ChristophHaas and Christoph Haas then  your name becomes clickable
[11:57] <ChrisH> sivang: trivial
[11:57] <ChrisH> pl0vs: you mean in the signature? how?
[11:58] <ChrisH> sivang: why not try it yourself after you have read the mini-tutorial?
[11:58] <sivang> this is what I intend to do :)
[11:58] <pl0vs> in your homepage: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ChristophHaas add an alias "Christoph Haas"
[11:58] <ChrisH> sivang: I assume your document is quite complete...
[11:59] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Hmmm. How would I set such an alias?
[11:59] <pl0vs> ChrisH, press aliases?
[11:59] <ChrisH> pl0vs: I'm so dumb. :)