[12:00] <pl0vs> what is #debian-mentors?
[12:02] <ChrisH> sivang: :)
[12:02] <ChrisH> pl0vs: A channel for mentoring new debian package maintainers.
[12:02] <ChrisH> pl0vs: Two fellow project guys and I started it after we set up mentors.debian.net two years ago.
[12:02] <ChrisH> pl0vs: eim (Ivo Marino) and CHS (Christoph Siess)
[12:04] <pl0vs> ah, so that's you as well, wow, i'm impressed
[12:04] <sivang> ChrisH : was synregy in anyway related to the project apart from sponsering your packages?
[12:04] <ChrisH> sivang: Nope.
[12:05] <ChrisH> pl0vs: http://workaround.org/server.jpg
[12:06] <pl0vs> ah, now i saw the pic full-size i can see the domainname on it :-)
[12:06] <ChrisH> pl0vs: :)
[12:06] <pl0vs> how fast is your uplink?
[12:07] <pl0vs> no ups?
[12:07] <sivang> me too
[12:07] <ChrisH> 512kbps
[12:07] <sivang> could you remind me what is the black machine for?
[12:07] <ChrisH> sivang: my TV server ;)
[12:07] <sivang> ah right
[12:07] <sivang> I recalled now :)
[12:08] <ChrisH> sivang: or do you mean the black pooping machine?
[12:08] <sivang> the asus
[12:08] <ChrisH> pl0vs: I bougt that old 19" mini-rack from a coworker and moved those two machines into old 19" industry covers :)
[12:08] <ChrisH> sivang: Yes. :)
[12:09] <sivang> yo WW !
[12:09] <ChrisH> yo^2
[12:09] <WW> Hey there
[12:09] <pl0vs> WW, hi
[12:09] <pl0vs> ChrisH, nice
[12:10] <sivang> ChrisH : what machine are those? I mean the mentors.d.n and t.d.n ?
[12:10] <sivang> SCSI / ide ?
[12:10] <pl0vs> ChrisH, but no ups needed in germany, here we loose electricity about once a month
[12:10] <WW> ChrisH: Quick question (maybe): Your DocBook example shows how to create an html file.  How would I change that to create a PDF file?
[12:10] <ChrisH> sivang: Both 2 GHz Athlon. 512 MB RAM. IDE (m.d.n = 80 GB, t.w.o = 200 GB)
[12:11] <sivang> wow
[12:11] <ChrisH> WW: docbook-utils - Convert Docbook files to other formats (HTML, RTF, PS, man, PDF)
[12:11] <ChrisH> WW: There is probably a stylesheet in that package.
[12:11] <ChrisH> WW: Just refer to the PDF XSLT and it should spit out pdf.
[12:11] <WW> ChrisH: Oh, yeah.  _Eventually_ I'll RTFM, but all the acronyms and standards are a bit overwhelming.
[12:12] <ChrisH> WW: I've tried to keep them to a minimum. But it's confusing, yes.
[12:13] <ChrisH> WW: did you read pl0vs posting on -doc?
[12:13] <pl0vs> docbook2man, docbook2pdf, docbook2rtf even!
[12:13] <WW> ChrisH: I don't mean _your_ docs... those are nice.  But I start following links about other stuff, I get lost pretty quick.
[12:13] <ChrisH> WW: Have you ever worked with LaTeX?
[12:13] <WW> ChrisH: Yes, lots.
[12:13] <ChrisH> WW: You probably haven't changed the styles yourself. Same here. :)
[12:13] <ChrisH> WW: Just use it. Tweak it by setting a few variables. That's it.
[12:14] <ChrisH> WW: That XSLT is even more funky than XML alone.
[12:14] <sivang> this is the general defenition , of a general language :)
[12:15] <pl0vs> we should add how to disable timesync to the faq as well
[12:15] <ChrisH> sivang: XSL is the language. XSLT is a transformation in that language that converts XML => sivangistic
[12:15] <sivang> ChrisH : ah now I get it, finally.
[12:16] <ChrisH> Interesting: http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gdp/resources.html
[12:16] <sivang> sure load much faster then ubuntulinux.org .. :)
[12:17] <ChrisH> That's not hard.
[12:17] <ChrisH> Wiki is probably much more CPU-intensive than static pages.
[12:20] <ChrisH> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gdp/templates.html
[12:20] <sivang> ChrisH : yes, but moinmoin was about 50% faster
[12:20] <ChrisH> This seems to be what we are looking for
[12:20] <pl0vs> ChrisH, maybe you could add the gnome link to the docbook page?
[12:20] <ChrisH> pl0vs: k
[12:21] <sivang> this are XSLT templates ?
[12:21] <ChrisH> sivang: No, XML. :)
[12:21] <ChrisH> Looks like yelp is reading native docbook. So we would not need to convert anything.
[12:23] <pl0vs> just add an ubuntu style-sheet
[12:23] <pl0vs> do you guys know any radio stations that work with xmms?
[12:24] <ChrisH> Okay, guys. It was a long day. Heading to bed. Sleep well (if some of you ever sleep).
[12:24] <ChrisH> And don't talk behind my back. I read you! ;)
[12:24] <pl0vs> sleep, i used to know such a word ...
[12:24] <WW> See ya.
[12:24] <pl0vs> ChrisH, good night!
[12:26] <WW> About docbook2pdf... I saved Chris's example as example.xml, and tried running "docbook2pdf example.xml > example.pdf"
[12:26] <WW> Should that work?
[12:26] <sivang> pl0vs : I install Helix and use it to play this www.106vic.org
[12:27] <sivang> ChrisH : night buddy!
[12:27] <WW> I get this error:
[12:27] <WW> jade:/usr/share/sgml/declaration/xml.dcl:31:27:W: characters in the document character set with numbers exceeding 65535 not supported
[12:33] <WW> Hmmm. The man page for docbook2pdf (which is just a front end for jw) says it can't handle xml, only sgml.
[12:37] <sivang> pl0vs : can you try and add ChrisH's docbook tutorial to the documentation section of the main website? I have ran into problems
[12:38] <pl0vs> WW, but it still works
[12:38] <pl0vs> sivang, ok, let me try
[12:38] <WW> I can't seem to create a pdf file from Chris's "Hello world" example.
[12:39] <WW> Should I not use encoding="UTF-8"?
[12:40] <pl0vs> docbook2pdf test.xml gives me a pdf file, and you do need utf8
[12:41] <WW> Do you get the "jade" error that I got?
[12:41] <WW> Actually, I do get a pdf file, but xpdf reports and error when it tries to display it.
[12:42] <sivang> pl0vs : any luck?
[12:42] <pl0vs> well, i cannot add a howto but i can edit existing ones
[12:43] <pl0vs> which is funny because some are mine, so i put them there to begin with
[12:43] <sivang> which ones can you edit?
[12:43] <pl0vs> Smart BootManager Howto
[12:45] <sivang> argghh I wanted to add chris's tutorial there
[12:45] <sivang> well, guess another mail to Lulu
[12:45] <sivang> boy's that's stupid :) I can also edit each and every howto / tutorial there,
[12:45] <sivang> but not add a new one :)
[12:49] <pl0vs> right.
[12:50] <pl0vs> so no new howto\s for now
[12:50] <sivang> :(
[01:00] <pl0vs> you guys into encrypted file-systems?
[01:01] <WW> Nope.  Are you in a HowTo frenzy? :)
[01:01] <pl0vs> yes
[01:01] <pl0vs> ;)
[01:02] <pl0vs> and icons
[01:02] <WW> HowTo encrypt your icons...
[01:02] <pl0vs> coool..
[01:02] <WW> I still can't get the pdf output to work... Probably doing (or not doing) something stupid here.
[01:03] <pl0vs> it's always like that with computers
[01:03] <WW> Yeah, they are so picky about commas and semicolons and stuff.
[01:03] <pl0vs> yeah, picky they are
[01:04] <pl0vs> can you make html ?
[01:07] <WW> I was able to make an html file using the command in Chris's notes (xsltproc), but if I use docbook2html, I get that same jade error.
[01:07] <pl0vs> WW, does  xsltproc -o test.html /usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/xhtml/docbook.xsl test.xml work?
[01:07] <WW> Yes, that one works.
[01:09] <pl0vs> docbook2html test.xml gives me an error message and index.html
[01:11] <WW> What is the error message?
[01:11] <pl0vs> jade:/usr/share/sgml/declaration/xml.dcl:31:27:W: characters in the document character set with numbers exceeding 65535 not supported
[01:11] <WW> Looks familiar. :)
[01:13] <pl0vs> you have no index.html in the directory where you ran docbook2html?
[01:13] <sivang> I am calling it a night, fellas :)
[01:14] <pl0vs> sivang, ok, see ya!
[01:14] <sivang> G'night all, c'ya soon!
[01:14] <sivang> nice docbook work went on today, thanks to ChrisH, pl0vs , everybody on the doc team 
[01:14] <WW> See ya.
[01:15] <WW> pl0vs: Yes, it did create an index.html.  
[01:15] <pl0vs> ah!
[01:15] <sivang> see ya WW
[01:15] <pl0vs> can you check it?
[01:16] <WW> I checked it with firefox. It has the same structure as the file created by the xsltproc command, but it numbers the section, and the font is bigger.
[01:19] <pl0vs> but it is correct?
[01:19] <pl0vs> that means it works
[01:20] <WW> pl0vs: Yes, it looks correct.
[01:21] <pl0vs> docbook2pdf test.xml what does that do, i get an erro but also test.pdf
[01:22] <WW> I get the same jade error, and a pdf file.  However, xpdf is unable to read the pdf file.  It gives errors and shows a blank window.
[01:24] <pl0vs> hmm, here i get an error but xpdf does read the file ok
[01:24] <WW> Doh! Never mind. I was doing this: docbook2pdf test.xml > test.pdf
[01:25] <WW> So I was trying to use stdout as the pdf file.
[01:26] <pl0vs> :)
[01:26] <pl0vs> so, now it works?
[01:26] <WW> Yes, I now have a pdf output that looks correct.
[01:27] <pl0vs> ok!
[01:29] <WW> Now I have to learn the various ways of hacking stylesheets to get the output just the way I want it.  Oh boy.
[01:31] <WW> I'm taking off.  See ya, pl0vs.  If I find any cool icons, I'll let you know. :)
[01:33] <pl0vs> WW, ok, see ya, good night
[04:40] <ftwig> Hi, anybody around?
[04:40] <pl0vs> ftwig, hi
[04:43] <ftwig> hi
[04:45] <pl0vs> looking for help with writing ubuntu-docs?
[04:45] <ftwig> the fromt page of the wiki has gone a bit teche - I did a alternative at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewFrontPage which was linked to from the front page but the link has been removed;(
[04:45] <pl0vs> ah, it was you page
[04:45] <ftwig> yes - it had agrement on the old wiki but I have not been able to incorporate stuff from new wiki
[04:46] <ftwig> my view was the wiki should stand on its own and have the same philosify as newbie frendly as the rest of the project
[04:47] <pl0vs> yes, well actually several  things from your page were used on the new page
[04:47] <pl0vs> it was a bit from all kinds of pages together
[04:47] <pl0vs> what do you think of the new page?
[04:48] <pl0vs> FrontPage, that is
[04:48] <ftwig> if I was a newbie I would run away ;) - apart from that fine
[04:48] <pl0vs> :)
[04:48] <pl0vs> what do you think is newbie unfriendly?
[04:49] <ftwig> the getting started section was to get round this, and thats why it was at the top
[04:50] <ftwig> also I had a nice contence section whitch was auto generated in moin but it cant be done in zwiki;(
[04:51] <pl0vs> yes, still fighting with the admins on that one [[TableOfContents] ] 
[04:51] <pl0vs> the canonical wanted alphabetical order
[04:53] <ftwig> ?alph order
[04:53] <pl0vs> and the real first page has getting ubuntu on it http://www.ubuntulinux.org
[04:53] <pl0vs> Community, Documentation, Policies & Procedures etc
[04:54] <ftwig> I also think the wili should be moin as thats a lot easier to learn.  Problem with havein RsTxt is people will use it and scare away people
[04:55] <pl0vs> it is still possible to use moin, and yes i would have preferred just moin as well
[04:55] <pl0vs> especially 1.3
[04:55] <pl0vs> but having one site is easier for the admins
[04:55] <ftwig> As I said I think the wiki should stand on its own - that way a total site can be developed
[04:56] <pl0vs> the wiki is only used as a scratchpad, all finished docs will be taken out and moved in the support-area
[04:56] <ftwig> are you saying we cant turn off RsTxt in the wiki section only
[04:57] <ftwig> problem with moving stuff off the wiki is it makes it more difficult to develop in
[04:57] <pl0vs> no, some writers prefer ReST over moin (i for one)
[04:58] <pl0vs> the stuff that is moved will aso be put in yelp
[04:58] <pl0vs> so it will be installed on the desktop
[04:58] <pl0vs> we move it to docbook
[04:58] <pl0vs> so people without network still have docs
[04:58] <ftwig> but surly accessebility in terms of learning markup is of prime importance in wiki.  If some of it is in ReST it may scare off some people 
[04:59] <ftwig> BTW the alpha order on the front page would REALLY suck.  The stuff new users need should be at top
[04:59] <pl0vs> i have been looking at who actually uses the wiki to write, i think hjaving to register is a bigger hurdle the the markup
[05:00] <pl0vs> then the markup
[05:00] <ftwig> not if you use other wiki and know moin ;)
[05:02] <pl0vs> we'll see, if moin support becomes better maybe we will remove ReST, until then we will have mixed 
[05:02] <ftwig> OK - anyway must go to bed
[05:02] <pl0vs> and about the frontpage, the order needs to be improved
[05:02] <pl0vs> ok, thanks for dropping by!
[05:03] <pl0vs> c ya!
[05:03] <ftwig> what I would really love is someone to do a increasing res in X - I keep on doing installs and cant get above 1024;(
[05:03] <ftwig> nite
[10:36] <ChrisH> plovs: moin...
[10:36] <plovs> hi!
[10:37] <plovs> he do you know: how to make a service stop forever without installing it
[10:37] <plovs> chmod -x?
[10:38] <plovs> or update-rc.d
[10:38] <plovs> or both?
[10:39] <plovs> i am updating https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuBootupHowto, and i do not know if it is correct
[10:58] <ChrisH> plovs: update-rc.d servicename remove
[10:58] <ChrisH> plovs: see "man update-rc.d"
[10:58] <plovs> ChrisH, yes, i did, but do they *stay* away? or do they get reinstalled
[10:59] <plovs> sb on the m'list said so
[10:59] <plovs> but what i wrote in the howto is what i do
[11:03] <ChrisH> Reinstalled? You mean if the service gets registered in the rc2.d when you "apt-get --reinstall install ..."?
[11:07] <plovs> when the service gets updaed i mean
[11:07] <ChrisH> IMHO it will stay disabled.
[11:10] <ChrisH> http://www.nl.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-opersys.html#s-sysvinit
[11:10] <ChrisH> 9.3.2
[11:11] <ChrisH> Though it's not 100% clear.
[11:14] <plovs> ChrisH, thanks
[12:03] <ChrisH> trickie: hi
[12:03] <trickie> hello
[12:04] <trickie> i posted earlier on the developers list asking where i can start to help out on ubuntu
[12:04] <trickie> thought docs is a good start
[12:06] <trickie> would i find things to do for documentation on bugzilla?
[12:06] <plovs> trickie, not yet
[12:07] <plovs> trickie, what are your interests?
[12:10] <trickie> well i do quite a bit of web development... also mono and gtk
[12:10] <trickie> i wouldn't mind learning abit about ubuntu as whole... like some of the processes involved with releasing a distro
[12:11] <ChrisH> trickie: I'm not long in the project either. The biggest problem is that even if there are rules they are hardly documented.
[12:11] <trickie> i also enjoy programming with python
[12:12] <trickie> true
[12:12] <trickie> i don't know much about debian so i gather that puts me behind in knowing a great deal about ubuntu
[12:13] <ChrisH> trickie: My first feeling when I read the main page was "Ubuntu is maintained by a small number of hand-picked debian developers". Sounded a bit elitist. I wasn't sure if I wanted to contribute. But actually the structure are a hell better than what's partly happening in Debian.
[12:13] <ChrisH> trickie: Unless you want to maintain your own packages (as they are still taken from Debian) you are probably free to contribute to every part of Ubuntu.
[12:14] <trickie> so like the mailing lists, wiki that sort of thing?
[12:15] <trickie> bug fixes etc?
[12:17] <ChrisH> There is just one bug report in the bugzilla regarding documentation.
[12:17] <plovs> for docs that are "open" you might check: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WikiToDo
[12:17] <ChrisH> I guess most of what needs to be done will be discussed here.
[12:17] <trickie> ok thanks
[12:17] <plovs> ChrisH, we just gor the bugzilla entry, so we're not yet used to it
[12:19] <ChrisH> ah
[12:24] <trickie> well... time for bed... thanks for your help... i'll be around again!
[03:47] <sivang> howdy all
[03:49] <sivang> ChrisH , around?
[03:52] <ChrisH> sivang: yes... in a minute
[03:54] <sivang> ah no prob
[03:54] <sivang> I see we've got ourselves a new channel op :)
[03:54] <sivang> he's here all the time
[04:05] <ChrisH> sivang: back... my wife wanted to have footprints of our son in cement - what a mess
[04:05] <sivang> wow! He's a real celeberity
[04:05] <sivang> :)
[04:05] <sivang> like movie starts in hollywoord
[04:07] <ChrisH> Just that blowing up out kitchen with TNT wouldn't make a greater mess. :)
[04:07] <sivang> hahaha
[04:07] <sivang> well, you should call out the cleaning lady and have her fix the kitchen back
[04:07] <sivang> :)
[04:16] <sivang> ChrisH : are you still using sarge / sid ?
[04:17] <ChrisH> sivang: yes, on my main pc
[04:18] <sivang> I was wondering, I can't seem to  make sound work on my inspiron 8200 laptop,
[04:18] <sivang> and Ubuntu , well made me little unable by means of configuration..:)
[04:18] <sivang> do you remember how to set up sound using alsa in sarge?
[04:18] <sivang> I am trying to use alsaconf,
[04:18] <sivang> it appears to be detecting the hardware but it doesn't work 
[04:24] <ChrisH> sivang: I didn't use alsaconf finally as it was too confusing.
[04:24] <sivang> well yes,
[04:24] <sivang> it's pretty much that way - you never know really what goes on
[04:24] <sivang> so , you used manual modprobe ?
[04:25] <ChrisH> sivang: In kernel 2.4 I use OSS and in 2.6 I switched to alsa. The kernel did it all.
[04:26] <ChrisH> sivang: then I check "lspci" which modules I needed... modprobe... bingo
[04:26] <sivang> problem is, I already tried many things using 'modconf' and I might be already having oss colliding with alsa
[04:27] <sivang> darn..
[04:28] <sivang> in 2.6, is /dev/dsp still used?
[04:28] <ChrisH> sivang: I'd be curious how to make my Sid installation auto-detect the hardware just like ubuntu and the new sarge installer does.
[04:28] <sivang> (I reckon GNOME is trying to find it )
[04:28] <sivang> the new sarge installer does that?
[04:28] <ChrisH> sivang: At least /dev/dsp enabled apps work in ubuntu and the artsd. (like xgalaga) I didn't get that to work in KDE.
[04:29] <sivang> Well, I'm not much of a KDE user anymore, so I guess I don't care about it.
[04:31] <ChrisH> sivang: Well... I installed hotplug and discover. But that didn't help it.
[04:32] <sivang> ah right
[04:32] <sivang> I should try those, although I think discover had alredy been installed.
[04:32] <ChrisH> sivang: I'm currently trying the gnome 2.6 (as in Sid) but it has flaws... the file requester is making me mad for example.
[04:32] <sivang> let's se
[04:33] <ChrisH> I just wanted to add a "home" symbol to the panel that should open my home directory. worked with nautils after a while. Then I wanted to give it a decent icon - not a chance. I chose /usr/share/pixmaps but whenever I clicked on "Open" nothing happened because the file requester wanted to open a file - not a directory.
[04:33] <ChrisH> And I even don't want to talk about "spatial views". The first thing I did was switching back to the old behavior.
[04:34] <sivang> ok, hotplug already installed.
[04:34] <ChrisH> I really like Gnome (over fvwm2 or fluxbox) but KDE is much more integrated.
[04:34] <sivang> discover I just did
[04:34] <sivang> teu
[04:34] <sivang> true
[04:34] <sivang> anyway, I'll go for a reboot hopefully all the redundent OSS modules would get off
[04:34] <sivang> :)
[04:35] <sivang> beb
[04:35] <sivang> brb
[05:36] <sivang> back
[07:35] <smurfix> Anybody know how to embed WikiLinks into ReST documents?
[07:35] <smurfix> (Specifically, links with slashes in them)
[07:36] <ChrisH> smurfix: Try [Wiki/Link] 
[07:39] <smurfix> Ah, it displays the brackets only as long as the page doesn't exist. Very clever ^w confusing, that.
[07:40] <ChrisH> smurfix: :)
[07:42] <ChrisH> God... is the Wiki sleeping? It takes ages to commit changes.
[07:52] <ChrisH> plovs: I have added some content to the SSHHowto Wiki page. Like to review it?
[08:53] <plovs> hi
[08:54] <plovs> ChrisH yes, i'll look at it,thanks
[08:58] <plovs> ChrisH, very nice
[08:58] <ChrisH> plovs: Thanks. :) I just felt the page would miss something about the more funky features.
[09:07] <plovs> ChrisH, ah, the power of wiki
[09:09] <ChrisH> plovs: You wrote "work in progress". Is there anything you would miss on that page?
[09:13] <plovs> ChrisH, i would like to add ssh-agent stuff to it
[09:14] <ChrisH> plovs: what exactly?
[09:16] <plovs> how to get ssh-agent to run on login, be asked for the password once and that's it
[09:16] <ChrisH> Errr. Do you really miss it? Try scrolling down a little. ;)
[09:22] <plovs> duh, i should not imagine i can read 5 windows in the same time, sorry
[09:22] <ChrisH> Just wondering. :)
[09:22] <plovs> then it's more or less finished
[09:22] <plovs> just icons, then it's ok ;-)
[09:23] <ChrisH> You are the icon man.