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ChrisHWho would usually hold the copyright of the FAQ? All authors (Gnome proposes that)? Or just "The Ubuntu Documentation Team"?12:04
sivangUbuntu Documentation Project12:08
ChrisHAccording to the web site it's the "Documentation Team".12:09
sivangok, then.12:11
sivangI have no idea what would be the better choise12:11
ChrisHI just wondered who the copyright holder is.12:11
WWChrisH: Interesting question.  12:11
sivangadd 'All Authors' maybe like in gnome?12:11
ChrisHThe single authors like Gnome uses it following the GDP guidelines... or the whole team.12:11
=== ChrisH is not very familiar with the GFDL either :(
WWFor comparison... Is the Linux kernel copyrighted?  Who holds that copyright?12:12
ChrisHWW: Everybody knows that. SCO of course.12:15
ChrisHEverybody who is curious... http://workaround.org/ubuntu/faq.html is the HTML output. http://workaround.org/ubuntu/faq.xml is the DocBook'ed template. You may download it and run it through 'yelp'. Not completely done but works mostly.12:19
ChrisHHmmm. Yelp isn't very good in displaying qandasets.12:20
WWChrisH: Something's wrong.12:22
WWYou've listed plovs as a co-author, but there are no icons in the document.12:23
ChrisHWW: lol12:23
ChrisHWW: You scared me. :)12:23
WWTalk about being scared...  I hate to think of the icon he finds for headless servers.12:24
ChrisHThat will at least keep him occupied. :)12:24
=== ChrisH wonders if we could provide the FAQ in HTML form
ChrisHAnyway... I'll get a quick nap. See you in my dreams. And if horbeck comes back in: I'll help him later (in about 8 hours if he is still awake then).12:27
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sivanghey there again, john01:44
sivanghow is the server going?01:46
hornbeckboy this server is pissing me off01:46
hornbecki have got nothing else done01:46
sivangyeah, I've heared01:46
hornbecknow the isp is telling me that my ip's are not public01:46
sivangwell don't get too down because of it,01:46
hornbeckeven though they are supposed to be01:46
sivangthen sue them01:46
hornbeckwhat I would not give to be writting docs :-)01:47
hornbeckare you running hoary yet?01:47
hornbeckis it working ok?01:47
hornbeckyou still there?01:49
sivangworking pretty fine, what have you stumbled into?01:56
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sivanganyway, night all02:14
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hornbeckback already?03:04
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hornbeckhey George04:54
George^Dekahi hornbeck 05:10
George^Dekaplovs: noticed in the logs you were after a windows desktop using one here now, i have not got ubuntu installed on this because of my slackness05:14
hornbeckI don't remember why I needed one05:16
George^Dekahornbeck: that was to plovs05:18
George^Dekathink he was after something like tomboy05:18
hornbeckhehe, yeah I see that now05:18
George^Dekaim bored - should be studding for uni exam 2morrow05:20
hornbeckI should be working on my server05:26
hornbeckbut I am watching tv with my 6 year old05:26
hornbeckand updating the laptop to hoary05:27
George^Dekawell im still on dialup hell, so ill be with warty till the release probably, unless i download a nightly cd image, but not much point now i would imagine nothing much happened yet in the world of gnome and they are moving over to x.o soon, that may have a hiccup or 205:28
George^Dekaso hows the book going05:33
hornbeckI have had a ton of stuff this past week, so no progress really05:37
hornbeckI am starting to work on the docbook markup though05:37
hornbeckI am reading through ChrisH's docbook stuff right now05:37
hornbeckthan I will start putting the stylesheet together and start feeling in the blanks05:38
George^Dekaso first book i take it ?05:39
hornbeckis it noticable?05:39
George^Dekareading docbook stuff now05:39
George^Dekathere is a good debian book that never got released - debianuniverse.org - if your going to be using a open doc style licence05:40
George^Dekaso you going to write it then hope you find a publisher05:41
hornbeckyeah, I am hoping to get it published near the hoary release05:42
hornbeckmaybe alittle after so I can get all the updates in05:42
George^Dekawell if you use a cd image a few weeks before hoary then you know what you will be doing, then you may be able to release it at the same time as hoary05:43
George^Dekai was thinking i would write a book, but then found out you already started i thought stuff it05:44
hornbeckif you would like to help with this one feel free05:44
hornbeckthe templete is online05:44
George^Dekado you have an idea on chapters yet05:45
George^Dekawheres the template05:45
hornbeckI am going to have a arch or svn server up in the next couple days05:45
George^Dekafeel free to use my firefox how to as the using firefox page05:50
George^Dekait is only about 20% done so far05:50
hornbeckas you get more let me know05:51
hornbeckI am working on the book right now05:51
hornbeckChrisH will help me with the svn server tomorrow05:51
hornbeckthan you can pull down the docbook if you want05:52
George^Dekawell that will be a while before i do that05:54
George^Dekabusy for next few weeks05:55
hornbeckthats fine05:55
hornbeckI will keep chugging along05:55
hornbeckwe got about five months :-)05:55
hornbeckwell I am going for a reboot, hoary just got done updating05:57
hornbecktalk to you later05:57
George^Dekaokay cya\05:59
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plovshornbeck so how is the server today?06:48
WWhey there06:48
plovsWW, morning!06:48
hornbeckdon't know how it is working06:48
hornbecktry it06:48
plovsWW, i read the logs! no jokes about icons please!06:48
plovsWW, ;-)06:48
plovshornbeck, works!06:48
hornbecktry opensoftdesign.org06:49
plovshornbeck, also works06:49
hornbeckI cannot check because I am within the network06:49
hornbeckyour running linux right06:49
plovsyes (among others)06:50
plovsmain desktop linux06:50
hornbeckwould you be willing to try the ssh access for me?06:50
plovsrm -rf / 06:50
hornbeckhaha, never mind06:50
plovsnah, been there done that (really,don't ask)06:51
hornbeckhaha, let me finish setting up your account06:51
WWHey, while you folks are getting the official FAQ set up with DocBook, can I replace the wiki FrequentlyAskedQuestions with NewFAQTest?06:59
hornbeckI have not looked but maybe :-)06:59
plovsWW, we'll wrap it up in a couple of days, then yes07:01
WWI mean, for now, just rename NewFAQTest to become FrequentlyAskedQuestions.07:02
WWIt has the same content, just converted to reST.07:02
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plovs_workok, back at work07:32
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plovs_workWW, in that case just move NewFAQTest to FrequentlyAskedQuestions and FrequentlyAskedQuestions to OldFaq (and link it on the page)07:49
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ChrisHAnyone awake already? :)08:57
plovs_workfrom five in the morning08:58
trickie7pm here08:59
plovs_workafter we redorated the bedroom yesterday i mixed up the clock and put it two hours off... duh09:00
ChrisH9 here09:00
=== ChrisH needs to reinstall - Hoary update failed
plovs_workChrisH, aargh, how come?09:06
ChrisHplovs_work: No idea really. I can't see if I have x.org. But that's not the problem.09:08
ChrisHplovs_work: I run evolution-exchange. And every time I'm fetching mails from the exchange server the process grows up to 1 GB eating up all swap... and then dies.09:09
ChrisHplovs_work: In hoary there is not yet an evolution-exchange package. So I needed to pin/hold. But that failed completely. :(09:09
ChrisHplovs_work: Do you run hoary already09:10
ChrisHplovs_work: ?09:10
plovs_workno, no time to muck around atm09:10
trickiei am upgrading my hoary install now09:13
plovs_workhow hard is it to upgrade, nned to document it?09:18
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trickiewell i didn't really use warty very long before i upgraded, but it was seemless for me09:20
trickieinstalled it on friday09:21
plovs_workChrisH, looks nice the faq-docbook09:22
plovs_workChrisH, what about <note>...</note> how would that format?09:28
plovs_workChrisH, and some of the fonts are too small09:28
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plovs_workChrisH, can we have a faq without the preamble (or put the preamble at the end) ?09:29
trickieplovs_work: where/how could i have a look at it (the faq)09:33
plovs_workthis is what we are working on09:43
plovs_workthis is the origianl09:44
ChrisHplovs_work: I have just used one of the stylesheets of the web site. So the fonts are probably not correct yet.10:12
=== ChrisH is now back on Warty
ChrisHplovs_work: Have you tried it with yelp? Looks nice. :)10:19
plovs_workChrisH, how do I do that?10:22
=== plovs_work is playing with vpn's and just ordered 7 new network-cards
=== plovs_work also runs firefox 1.0
=== plovs_work is having a grand day
ChrisHplovs_work: Grab the xml file and run it with "yelp foobar.xml"10:24
plovs_workduh, just did that, sorry i even asked10:25
ChrisHplovs_work: np :)10:25
plovs_workChrisH, this is *really* neat10:25
plovs_workChrisH, wow!10:25
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ChrisHplovs_work: Shipping that with Gnome should be fine for end-users.10:26
plovs_workChrisH, icons work!!! in yelp, with <note> !!!10:26
ChrisHMorning, lulu. :)10:26
ChrisHplovs_work: Argh! Icons... ;)10:26
plovs_workChrisH, but seriously this needs to get into hoary, maybe even updated warty10:27
luluMorning Chris, Morning All :o)10:27
plovs_workmorning lulu10:27
plovs_worklulu, you know what yelp is?10:29
ChrisHplovs_work: Indeed. Would you start with that XML file?10:30
luluplovs_work: afraid I don't....:o(10:30
plovs_workChrisH, yep, today10:30
plovs_worklulu, it is the gnome help browser, you run ubuntu atm?10:31
plovs_workChrisH, but a little later, I do have some questions for you still (you being the local docbook-guru)10:31
plovs_worklulu, it is in Applications > Help10:32
plovs_worklulu, are there any plans to add ubuntu-branding to it? It just begs for it10:32
luluplovs_work: I'm on Apple Mac atm - but can have a look....ahh - ok - so it needs branding - is there a page in Hoary that is a Hoary wish list you can add it to?10:33
luluon the wiki?10:33
plovs_worklulu, yes, let me find it10:34
ChrisHplovs_work: Not a guru. :) I'm merely glad it worked so far.10:34
plovs_workChrisH, if we make the faq in docbook->html can I refer to a specific question, and can i make the previous link *not* break?10:38
plovs_workChrisH, there are already links to the wiki questions10:38
plovs_workChrisH, not wiki faq-questions10:38
ChrisHplovs_work: I'm not sure if I get you. You want to create hyperlink to Wiki pages? Or do you want to link within the docbook-faq?10:40
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plovs_workChrisH, link within the docbook-faq10:41
ChrisHplovs_work: Yes, that's possible. See my DocBook wiki page. It should work with the <ulink url="... tag.10:42
plovs_worklulu, maybe http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SupportedSeedProposals, i asked mdz but no answer yet10:43
luluplovs_work - likely that he is still asleep! He's very good at getting back to people so I'm sure he'll answer you when he's up. Send him an email.10:45
plovs_worklulu, ok, i'll add it then, agreed?10:49
plovs_workChrisH, did you notice? is the wiki significantly faster today or is firefox 1.0 faster?10:50
plovs_worklulu, thanks for your mail10:51
ChrisHplovs_work: The wiki is always fast during this time (morning time here). Later in the day it's a pain.10:51
plovs_workChrisH, too bad, i was just hoping ...10:52
ChrisHplovs_work: I already considered setting up a local wiki here and test the pages there before uploading.10:52
luluplovs_work: email - no worries10:53
plovs_workChrisH, its an apt-get away...10:54
luluplovs_work:re: yelp - if you think that's the right place!10:55
plovs_worklulu, we'll fix things today and send you some screenshots tomorrow10:56
=== ChrisH wonders why yelp only shows one level of the TOC
luluplovs_work - ok :o)11:03
sivanghey everybody,11:13
sivangwhat brings the day?11:13
ChrisHsivang: work, work, work :)11:16
ChrisHwhile ( ! $boss->satisfied() ) { work(harder); }11:17
ChrisHsivang: Although the docbook xml stuff looks pretty nice already. There is just a quirk that yelp only creates a TOC for the highest level. So there is list of FAQs ins a category. In XHTML this looks good.11:18
sivangwow, nice to hear that. :)11:18
sivangthen we could just use XHTML , if yelp eats it nicely.11:18
ChrisHLet's see if future versions of yelp will handle that better (or at least customizable).11:24
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ChrisHHi, sid77 01:03
luluHiya sid7701:22
luluChrisH: thanks for your email - I'd like to take a little time to respond to it ok?01:23
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ChrisHlulu: Sure.01:24
George^Dekahi all01:25
ChrisHhi, George^Deka 01:25
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George^Dekaseems like the licencing of the docs is still an issue in the ML (even though thought we basically decided during meeting) - unfortunatly i have been missing some mail that i should have been reading - i have just sent my reply to the list any comments01:40
George^Dekawhat free software guidlines does ubuntu go by DFSG or OSSF01:41
ChrisHGeorge^Deka: It has been discussed recently on ubuntu-doc@ whether the GFDL would be appropriate. And it was said that it has license problems of some kind. But I think there is not yet a consensus.01:42
ChrisHGeorge^Deka: Do you know the differences of those licenses to recommend a license scheme?01:42
ChrisHGeorge^Deka: btw: there is a mailman list archive in case you missed anything01:43
George^DekaChrisH: i know from what i have read on debian-legal based off the DWN01:43
=== ChrisH is bad at understanding licenses
George^DekaChrisH: my post sheds more lite, finding the wiki page now01:44
ChrisHGeorge^Deka: found it01:44
George^DekaGFDL DSFG non-free http://people.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/Position_Statement.xhtml01:45
ChrisHAh... my good old friend Manoj. :)01:46
George^DekaChrisH: manoj ?01:47
ChrisHGeorge^Deka: Manjos Srivastava. Got flamed by him badly once or twice. ;)01:48
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George^Dekafrom what i can see ubuntu follows the FSF guidlines which means we can use GFDL, however i think some people have honest issues about it in the doc team (those which concur with the issues of debian-legal) because most of the team from my understanding come from a debian background and love free as in speach not beer02:01
George^Dekasorry about spelling, cant be bothered trying to correct it all02:01
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George^DekaChrisH: from what i have said do you understand anymore or less ? 02:14
George^Dekabrb somko time, then if theres any chit chat hang around for a bit or otherwise bed - exam in 9 hours exactly02:15
ChrisHGeorge^Deka: Yes, more less than more. But I remotely remember I have read that before. I'm not a legal things guru. So You think that OSSF is the only decent way?02:16
=== sid77 bye all
George^DekaChrisH: well i was getting OSSF and FSF mixed up - they are some thing i had wrong acronym02:16
George^DekaChrisH: well i think what licence we use comes down to what guidlines ubuntu follows (from what i can see FSF)02:17
George^DekaChrisH: cause if FSF we can use GFDL otherwise if we use DFSG we cannot use GFDL02:18
George^DekaChrisH: but of cource i think some ppl may have issues with GFDL - such as the non-changable parts of content etc.02:19
ChrisHI'm not sure about the legal status of those licenses. And sometimes the discussions in debian-legal are hard to follow IMHO. In addition some people are just talking there. Hmmm.02:20
plovs_workhi guys, I'm glad we got people who are in to licenses02:20
plovs_workmy head always starts spinning after a couple of minutes02:20
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hornbeckgood morning02:23
George^Dekawell i do have a okay understanding how law works - studied 2 units of it - was going to become a lawyer but then decided against it (mainly didnt get into the course)02:24
George^Dekaplovs_work: do you understand anything i have said - i am trying to simplify it down as best as i can02:25
George^Dekamorning hornbeck (well nite for me)02:25
George^Dekahornbeck: if you know anything bout licences or are interested check the log02:26
George^DekaChrisH: i only ever consider the full consecus of debian-legal as i know they have lawyers on the team02:27
hornbeckI will George02:27
=== George^Deka is now known as GeorgeD
plovs_workGeorge^Deka, to be honest, i must read the meaning of all the abbreviations first, i know bsd and gpl and lgpl, that's it02:28
plovs_workhornbeck, morning!02:28
plovs_workbtw Jakub Steiner said he would try to draw a wiki-icon for us (he is one of the main gnome artists)02:29
GeorgeDplovs_work: well DFSG is Debian Free Software Guidlines - FSF is the Free Software Foundation02:29
GeorgeDdoes anyone know of anyone @ canonical that makes the decisions on licences etc... would be good to get them talking02:30
plovs_workGeorgeD, ok, i just backread the log and mail now02:30
GeorgeDplovs_work: cool02:31
GeorgeDanyone know if mdz is awake ?02:31
plovs_workGeorgeD, doesn't look like it, yet02:32
plovs_workGeorgeD, what are invariant sections?02:32
GeorgeDplovs_work: they are sections of a document that you can specify cannot be varied02:33
GeorgeDplovs_work: which makes those sections non-free02:33
GeorgeDplovs_work: IMO02:34
plovs_workGeorgeD, sorry i am not a native english speaker, cannot be varried eg, people are not allowed to mess with it?02:36
hornbeckman the stupid isp is still messing up my ip range02:37
GeorgeDplovs_work: exactly those sections cannont be changed (varied = changed)02:37
hornbeckChrisH, plovs: I have the book set to docbook and have a decent little start to it02:38
plovs_workhornbeck, da man!02:38
hornbeckI would like everyone to be able to see it in the next few days and give suggestions02:38
GeorgeDChrisH: the irclog yours ? if so any chance can get like 500 lines or something the change between 100 and 1000 is way too huge02:38
hornbecksoon, as this server works :-)02:38
plovs_workhornbeck, did you see the faq in yelp?02:38
plovs_workGeorgeD, do we have documentation that says that, invariant sections?02:39
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hornbeckmy email is not hornbeck@aol02:40
hornbeckbastards :-)02:41
ChrisHhornbeck: Uh, err, hmm, well, a software error I suppose. :)02:41
ChrisHhornbeck: btw, I'm preparing the steps for the repository here so we know exactly what to do. :) I used SSH in the past. But I think WebDAV through Apache2 would be better.02:42
ChrisHhornbeck: btw, hi :)02:42
ChrisHhornbeck: Did you get your ISP connection up and running? It's bad that our time zones are so different. :(02:42
GeorgeDplovs_work: Do you mean does any of our docs have invariant sections atm - then i think no - but the issue is that our docs can then be modified and make with sections that cannot be changed02:42
plovs_workGeorgeD, where is a page with debian compliant licenses? we would like to send stuff upstream, i think02:46
GeorgeDplovs_work: debian-legal wiki http://wiki.debian.net/index.cgi?DFSGLicences02:48
GeorgeDI have just found what i have been trying to find all night the actual ubuntu stance on licences - http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/licensing/document_view02:48
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GeorgeDIn particuar this section - Ubuntu "main" Component Licence Policy - Must allow modification and distribution of modified copies under the same licence. Just having the source code does not convey the same freedom as having the right to change it. Without the ability to modify software, the Ubuntu community cannot support software, fix bugs, translate it or improve it.02:49
GeorgeDreading that it poses a good question can invariant sections be translated - question for the writers of the GFDL02:50
GeorgeDcan someone please make sure lulu and enrico reads this02:51
GeorgeDplovs_work: GFDL cannot be sent upstream02:53
GeorgeDanyone awake ?02:59
GeorgeDotherwise it will be nite02:59
ChrisHGeorgeD: Good luck with your exam. :)03:01
GeorgeDChrisH: thanks ill need it - it is 8 hours away and i dont know a thing and its bedtime now03:01
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GeorgeDChrisH: thats the problem with everyone in diff time zones03:02
plovs_workGeorgeD, thanks, good night03:02
GeorgeDChrisH: bloody australia03:02
ChrisHGeorgeD: You don't know a thing? Whow...03:03
GeorgeDChrisH: well i know some but not enough jack all of the theory - i been slack with the uni work been too busy with ubuntu, firefox and slashdot03:04
GeorgeDcan someone do me a favour if you see mdz ask him to talk to about licenses then tell me03:06
GeorgeDbloody printer low on ink03:07
GeorgeDif anyone here has a managment major i need quick help/teaching on mckinsey's 7 S's03:07
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GeorgeDfinal nite all03:09
sivanganyboyd has new updates on the GFDL thing?03:09
GeorgeDsivang: now your awake - read the backlog03:10
GeorgeDsivang: been discussing it for last hour at least03:10
sivangI saw a post about it being the choosen license.03:10
sivangGeorgeD : oh, sorry, will read the backlog03:10
GeorgeDsivang: i totally disagree03:10
GeorgeDsivang: email me what you think of my opinion03:10
GeorgeDi do not want GFDL and think it does not meet http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/licensing/document_view - and if will take it all the way so we dont have to have it03:11
GeorgeDsivang: i also think it may cause an issue for translations03:11
plovs_workhi sivang!03:12
GeorgeDsivang: will stay up for another 5 minutes if you need me to but otherwise bed in 1 minute03:13
sivangGeorgeD : no problem, go to bed - I will read the latest posts and through the backlog03:14
GeorgeDsivang: sweet as03:14
GeorgeDlulu: if you read this from who did you get the conculsion GFDL wins ?03:15
GeorgeDnite all03:15
plovs_workhornbeck, how is the firewall going?03:17
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aswGeorgeD: I had to leave early from the doc meeting but I asked hornbeck to put in my vote for the GPL as doc license.  I think the GFDL should be permitted in Ubuntu on a case by case basis.  Respectfully, I think you are wrong that it's non-free  but it's a klunky license and there is no need to use it by default.03:40
aswOn the other hand, being forced to create a mechanism to deal with "non-technical" invariant sections (aka political speech) is probably a good thing. [tm]  03:42
luluI just sent an email on licensing: GeorgeD: Mark is keen for it to be GFDL, but this will not be forced. The creator of the document can choose what license they wish to use. Derived works will remain under the license of the originator. I think this will cover the discussions to date.03:46
sivanglulu : yes, I think so pretty much, sounds reasonable on this stage.03:48
luluall: thoughts?03:49
ChrisHlulu: According to discussions on debian-devel the GFDL is considered non-free. But I'm not sure if Ubuntu enforces the same legal standards as Debian. (Oh how I hate that lawyer talks.) I think I would use the GFDL anyway.03:50
aswasw: obviously fine with me.  I think the bugs in the GFDL will be fixed, so, I have no problems with the GFDL.  And most importantly it's the only license that emphasizes that bits should be licensed differently if they are put to different human purposes.  03:51
aswthat was for you lulu 03:51
=== sivang will stick to GPL
sivangon my documents ofcourse.03:52
aswmy preference is to use the GPL for most things to because it's nice to be able to cut and paste between source to documentation.   03:53
luluOk - so everyone can choose what they are most comfortable with.03:56
luluHow's the documentation writing and polishing going?03:56
plovs_workwe'll work on the faq today, converting it to docbook03:56
ChrisHlulu: We are currently setting up the repository for the FAQ (hornbeck had some network problems). The DocBook/XML template for the news FAQ is ready. plovs_work is already converting.03:57
ChrisHlulu: Would we rather upload the processed HTML manually to a Wiki page? Or would it be okay to either upload it directly or have it on another server (like faq.ubuntu.workaround.org or such)?03:57
luluChrisH: I think it could be ok to upload directly....any security issues?03:59
luluIt should all be on our server if at all possible.03:59
aswBelaboring the licensing point.  I had lunch with RMS yesterday and after two and a half hours of intersting conversation I am even more convinced that he's right that we should be really careful about not using the same license for protecting ideas in the "creative commons" versus the "science commons" versus the "software commons".  We shouldn't automatically use the GPL because it's what we know.  (For example, what license should04:00
asw be used for http://parts.mit.edu ?) Now, back to docbook and FAQs. 04:00
ChrisHlulu: How would we access it? Out plan is to auto-process the DocBook file to XHTML and upload it. FTP access? SSH access?04:00
aswPS. Can the DocBook/XML template be used to produce plain text? 04:00
luluYou can upload the HTML file within the Documentation area - Browse and select the file....wouldn't that be sufficient?04:01
ChrisHlulu: Hard to do it automatically. But for updates once every few days that should be possible.04:04
ChrisHlulu: Or you set up a cron job that fetches the HTML page from the repository and puts it online.04:04
sivangwow asw, I dind't know you were into biological computation :) nice04:04
ChrisHasw: I think so.04:05
luluChrisH: mmmm - I think we need to chat to admins and plone pepes to see what we can do....what is "going for gold"!04:06
ChrisHasw: the "xmlto" package provides converters for DocBook to plain text. And if nothing helps we'll "just" write our own XSLT.04:07
ChrisHlulu: Yes. I don't have more access to your server(s) than plain Wiki. So it's hard to decide what would be best. I'm used to script a lot on my web servers.04:08
aswsivang: yeah. I have somewhat eclectic professional interests.  04:09
sivangChrisH : yelp failing on me , it cannot find the faq.xml's stylesheet, should I install something for it?04:10
luluChrisH: Let's put forward the options - pls email me and I will get that explored ok!? thanks Chris :o)04:10
ChrisHsivang: Stylesheet? Is yelp not properly installed?04:11
ChrisHlulu: Sure.04:11
luluChrisH: thanks :o)04:11
aswChrisH: I'm reading the logs.  I'm the maintainer of "pmars" the reference implementation for the game corewar. So I can be a test-case for the "new package" process.  I'd also like to put the REC.GAMES.COREWAR faq into docbook using your tools. 04:11
sivangChrisH : xsl:import : unable to load /usr/share/xml/gnome/xslt/docbook/html/db2html.xsl04:12
sivangcompilation error: file /usr/share/sgml/docbook/yelp/db2html.xsl line 7 element import04:12
ChrisHasw: Yes, sure.04:14
ChrisHsivang: Very strange. I can run it without problems on Warty here.04:14
sivangI'm using hoary04:15
ChrisHsivang: Hoary is not covered by your support contract. ;)04:19
ChrisHasw: What is the "new package process"? Did I miss anything? (Well, I probably miss most things.)04:21
sivangnew maintainers process I think :)04:22
ChrisHIs there such a thing? I only read discussions about it. And on #-devel I heard that the packages are mainly coming from Debian with only very few exceptions.04:23
sivangmostly for main supported packages, if I am not mistaken04:25
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=== sid77 hi
aswChrisH: "new package process" it's more like a new maintainer process. I think sivang is one of the early test-cases.   (or maybe I'm mixing up names.)04:28
sivangno, I am :)04:28
aswMy understanding is that people should be able to contribute to universe first with the intention of contributing to debian later. (So a person can start out as an apprentice ubuntu maintainer but with the understanding they'd probably become a debian maintainer too.)  04:30
aswsivang: are you a debian maintainer already? Is that something you are considering?04:31
sivangasw : I have, however I am not sure how much time will be left for me to care for debian maintainerships at the moment.04:31
ChrisHasw: I have put myself on the MaintainerCandidates page. And although I've been contributing to Debian for two years by now I could imagine to help maintaining packages here before the DAM approves me. ;)04:32
sivangyou can04:32
sivangI think so.04:32
=== asw gets something to eat.
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ChrisHplovs: Would you like to join the repository already? This is temporary until hornbeck gets his server up. Then we can migrate it (nothing gets lost!).05:00
ChrisHplovs: Just install the "subversion" package and run "svn checkout http://ubuntu.workaround.org:8080/faq"05:00
sivangwe already have a repository?05:00
ChrisHsivang: I have set it up to record what steps we need to run on hornbeck's server.05:01
sivangoh nice.05:01
ChrisHsivang: I imagine it will be a few days until it's up and running. (Time zones, DNS records, routing, firewalls and all that.)05:01
sivangyes, that's a nice groccesries list.05:02
ChrisHsivang: Yeah, a few details can keep you occupied until the server runs.05:02
ChrisHsivang: Of course you are invited to try it out too (even if you don't intend to contribute currently).05:02
ChrisHThe files are publicly readable at: http://torf.workaround.org:8080/faq/05:03
sivangI will put there StartingTheJourney :)05:03
plovsChrisH, ok, thanks05:03
ChrisHJust committing changes will require a user name and password (that I will create for everybody here of course).05:03
sivangthank ChrisH !05:03
ChrisHCool... uploading even works through our squid proxy. :)05:05
plovsChrisH how can i check in?05:06
plovsChrisH, checkout works05:07
ChrisHplovs: Run "svn ci". We need to create an account for you first. I'll use "plovs" as a user name. Please /msg me the password you like to get assigned.05:07
plovsChrisH, ok?05:10
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ChrisHplovs: go for it05:11
ChrisHplovs: I have submitted revision 2. Yours should become 3.05:11
plovscan i add a new file as well?05:14
ChrisHAh... back again05:15
ChrisHplovs: Yes. "svn add filename"05:15
ChrisHplovs: "svn stat" shows you which files are new, local or will be uploaded.05:15
ChrisHIf you are interested I'll write a tiny Wiki page on the most frequently needed SVN commands. Not many actually.05:16
=== sivang would also make a good use of such a wiki page.
ChrisHI'll write a quick page on how to set up a repository and on how to use it. Will probably save some time for you. And it helps hornbeck get the steps done quickly.05:18
plovsChrisH, that would be great05:24
plovsChrisH, just added my faq_ap.xml to it05:26
plovswill start to work on it now05:26
ChrisHplovs: ap?05:27
plovsChrisH, btw do you do folding with vim?05:27
plovsChrisH, my initials05:27
plovsChrisH, docbook folds very nice05:27
ChrisHplovs: Ah... you may as well put your sections directly into the faq.xml (that's what it's for).05:28
ChrisHplovs: the repository will merge all changes automatically. So I can even work on the header while you are adding the old FAQ.05:29
plovsaaah, me stone-age man me make fire!05:29
=== plovs goes merging
ChrisHplovs: Hey, no problem. :) Not everybody on the rotten planet has worked that much with repositories before.05:29
plovsChrisH what is the reason you use <title> <para> now instead of <question> <answer> ?05:31
plovsjust found out it doesn't work in yelp05:32
ChrisHplovs: yelp does not seem to be able to use qandasets properly. I have done a few experiments yesterday. As Yelp and XHTML are the main output formats we will probably need I thought it would be better like this.05:32
ChrisHplovs: Sorry if I made you double-work.05:32
plovsno pro, i hadn't done much, more mucking around with vim and docbook then anything else05:34
plovsi love vim05:34
ChrisHI'm out for an hour. Gotta go home.05:37
ChrisHOnline: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SubVersion05:37
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hornbeckthe start of the "Learning Ubuntu GNU/Linux" is there07:36
hornbeckdocbook form07:36
hornbeckcheck it out07:36
hornbeckI have to go back to work now :-)07:36
lulunight guys - catch ya tomorrow :o)07:40
sivangbye lulu07:40
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cenerentola<hornbeck> the start of the "Learning Ubuntu GNU/Linux" is there07:43
cenerentolasorry i lost the first part07:43
hornbeckthats where07:47
ChrisHhornbeck: did you get your network working?07:49
ChrisHhornbeck: Great.07:50
hornbeckis it working?07:50
ChrisHhornbeck: I have summarized what you would need to do to create the repository. See http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SubVersion07:50
ChrisHhornbeck: Yes, could reach it.07:50
hornbeckfor how long it will work, I don't know07:51
ChrisHhornbeck: Why's that?07:51
hornbeckwell I have to run, I am on lunch07:51
hornbeckChrisH: seems to still be having problems07:51
hornbeckbut it is being fixed07:51
ChrisHhornbeck: okay... let's talk when you have time07:52
hornbeckI will be back in four hours07:52
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littlepaulChrisH, hast du #ubuntu-doc ins Leben gerufen?08:32
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ChrisHNicht alleine. Im doc team-Meeting letzte Woche Donnerstag in #ubuntu-meeting wurde beschlossen, dass man intensiver an der Doku arbeiten wollte. Und da hat man sich auf #ubuntu-doc geeinigt.08:33
littlepauldanke fr die Info08:33
littlepaulfinden team-Meetings regelmig statt?08:34
ChrisHlittlepaul: Every thursday IIRC. sivang: was it thursday that the doc team meeetings are taking place?08:34
sivangIt was last time, we might keep it that way if it's good for the members.08:36
sivangHowever, I don't mind setting a new day or not having a "special" day of the week.08:36
sivangmeetings should work for us, not the other way around :)08:36
ChrisHWe'll probably not find a time that satisfies everyone.08:37
=== ChrisH hates RL meetings
littlepaulist wohl wahr08:37
=== sivang wished he could read understand germen
ChrisHYes, we better keep it english here. :)08:38
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plovsChrisH, already 30 sections, svn works nicely08:55
ChrisHplovs: That reminds me... I need to create the script that automatically creates HTML files with every submission.08:56
ChrisHplovs: will you remove the faq_ap.xml file again?08:57
plovsChrisH, how?08:57
ChrisHsvn rm faq_ap.xml ; svn ci08:57
plovsok (not in the howto)08:58
ChrisHYes, I know. :)08:58
ChrisHI didn't intend to copy the subversion book. If you are interested you should read a few chapters there. It's really interesting. And by far not as complicated as CVS.08:58
plovsChrisH, will do, so svn it is? not arch (i have no preference yet)09:00
plovsChrisH, it seems kind of a vi-emcs think09:00
ChrisHI just read a lot of documents about "subversion versus arch".09:00
ChrisHSee the last paragraph of the README I just committed.09:00
plovsin faq?09:01
ChrisHPerhaps parts of Ubuntu are kept in 'arch' currently. But it's a lot like "you'll love it or hate it". After reading the docs I found out that the author mainly wrote it to become famous and to make money with it.09:02
=== plovs cleans his glasses again
ChrisHI prefer using easy solutions instead of following people that say "this is what serious developers use - screw everything else".09:02
plovs[white]  faq > ls09:02
plovsMakefile  faq.xml  faq.xml~  svn-commit.tmp~  ubuntu.xs09:02
ChrisHcvs up09:03
ChrisHsvn up09:03
ChrisHI just committed the changes. So you need to check out other people's (my) changes first.09:03
plovsi did svn ci 50x duh, reading docs is good09:03
ChrisHNah, docs are for wimps. :)09:03
ChrisHThere are really only 4 or 5 important commands that you need to know.09:04
ChrisHplovs: Would you consider using <sect2> sections for the questions? I intended to have <sect1> for the major categories.09:05
plovswell, for our 3 docs i think i can settle for the inferior of the two then (me being a superior hacker and all)09:05
plovsmeaning svn09:05
plovsChrisH, ok09:05
plovsChrisH, question, how do i put the following lines in docbook: (carefull small flood follows)09:06
plovsPressed CDs09:07
plovsWill you really ship CDs free of charge, and where can I get one?09:07
plovsIf you cannot download CDs, or would simply like more attractive pressed CDs, we can send you pressed copies of the Install CD free of charge.09:07
=== ChrisH puts on his helmet
plovsyou see? Pressed CDs <sect1>09:07
=== plovs waves, flood is over, all alive?
plovsWill you really ship <sect2>09:08
plovsIf you cannot <the rest09:08
plovshow should i do it instead?09:08
ChrisHThis way we would have 500 sect1's.09:08
ChrisHIMHO categories are very important here.09:09
plovsi know, it looks like, not so good09:09
plovsagreed, i just do not know how to do it09:09
ChrisHplovs: Look at the few questions I have already entered.09:09
ChrisHplovs: I thought that would serve as a good template09:09
ChrisHWe surely don't know what all the categories will be called yet09:09
ChrisHBut it will be easier to move around FAQs than moving all sect1 to sect2.09:10
plovshmm, but the sec1 tags can just be removed right?09:10
plovswhat if i just dump it all in, then we make sections?09:10
plovsor we make sections first?09:11
ChrisHYes, good idea (dump it).09:11
plovsor i just dump it all in at sec2?09:11
plovsand forget about the classification used in the faq atm09:11
ChrisHplease look at my example in "SECTION: UBUNTU IN GENERAL". Every FAQ is just <sect2><title>...</title><para>...</para></sect2>09:12
ChrisHSo sect1 will deliver the categories later.09:12
plovsi know, i just wrapped them all in a second sec1, like an extra useless blanket09:12
plovslet them be cold, no more extra sect1! forget it! it's over!09:13
plovsonly sect2!09:13
=== plovs goes off to work
=== plovs on the faq
ChrisHplovs: Thanks.09:16
ChrisHplovs: Glad we agree on that.09:16
plovsChrisH, wait till i start bargaining for icons next time... (but Chris last time we did it your way...)09:18
=== plovs grins evily
ChrisHI knew there was a catch in this "consensus". :)09:20
=== sivang LOLs
ChrisHSheesh. The more comments on arch versus subversion I read I see that it's a "discussion" like Gentoo versus Debian. Gentoo is better. It must be! It's faster! I's customized. It's *your* system. Nothing else is as good as it. It makes you smart.09:21
ChrisHWhere by now all the 'arch' users have been bashing and the 'subversion' users seeked comments for improvements.09:21
trickie__see ya guys09:29
plovsChrisH, ok, initial copying is done, i did not copy the links yet09:51
plovsChrisH, what about the wiki faq?09:52
plovsi make a backup copy and then start moving stuff around09:54
ChrisHThe Wiki FAQ has not really a good quality. We should carefully check which entries are worth moving.10:06
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plovsok, time for review10:45
plovsChrisH, more less categories etc?10:46
ChrisHplovs: Okay, checking... 0%... 1%... 2%...10:47
ChrisHplovs: Very good structure so far.10:47
ChrisHplovs: Actually it's very nice to have auto icons added to <note>...</note> sections :)10:48
plovsChrisH, i just *had* to put one in10:49
ChrisHplovs: where?10:49
ChrisHplovs: Ah, the one <note>... yes :)10:49
ChrisHplovs: We can worry about the categories later. Did you include everything that was on both FAQs in the Wiki?10:51
plovsChrisH, we should have it checked, i might accidently have deleted something, moving stuff around10:52
plovsno, not from the wiki, only the support faq10:52
ChrisHIMHO the support FAQ is the more important page.10:52
plovsChrisH, i think we should finish this one and then slowly put things from the wiki faq in10:53
ChrisHplovs: Is 'configuratoin' and 'installation' really different things?10:54
ChrisHplovs: 'contributing' should be moved to the bottom imho10:54
ChrisHplovs: And you should edit your own <author> section at the beginning of the file10:57
ChrisHplovs: And add yourself to the copyright10:57
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plovs_ChrisH, did your bot stop?11:07
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ChrisHplovs_: Yes, unfortunately I made a mistake on mentors.debian.net today which disconnected the machine for about 6 hours. :(11:09
plovs_ah well...11:10
plovs_what do you mean i have quit?11:12
plovs_stupid computer11:12
plovs_ChrisH, http://verbum.org/blog/freesoftware/stofsrc11:14
plovs_ChrisH, colin walters isn't he an ubuntu person as well?11:15
ChrisHcolin watson? Yes.11:15
ChrisHBut what a stupid thing to say: "it [subversion]  will never let me hack while disconnected on my laptop". Of course it does. What's the problem about having a central repository?11:16
ChrisHThe arguments from arch-lovers are really childish. "CVS is a joke." "Subversion will never be a distributed system." Hell!11:16
ChrisHSome guys on #ubuntu-devel are really great hackers. But their blind love for 'arch' is disturbing.11:17
ChrisHThe very same people haven't complained about CVS for years. And now all of a sudden even other improved systems are worthless. Yeah, right.11:17
sivangisn't subversion already a distributed system?11:17
ChrisHOf course.11:18
sivangso what do they base their arguments on11:18
ChrisHIt has a central storage. But so what. Everybody is free to work around as long as they like.11:18
ChrisHIn Arch you don't have a server at all. It's all like "file sharing" (P2P).11:18
sivangah, that sounds hmmm, how to put it nice for the log?11:19
ChrisHWhat annoys me is that they are complaining that the Subversion developers are arrogant (the mailing list reads quite nicely IMHO) and CVS is dead (since when?). But everything that drops out of the author of 'arch' is arrogant bullshit.11:19
sivangBoy, didn't know that even versioning systems have their share of religious wars.11:20
plovs_how would bitkeeper fit into this? arch-like or subversion-like?11:20
ChrisHHaven't used Bitkeeper every.11:20
plovs_sivang, yes, and bitkeeper is the worst of all :)11:20
ChrisHAmiga/Atari. Vi/Emacs. Subversion/Arch. I'm so tired of that. And I'm disappointed that core developers start that fight again. They really should know better.11:21
sivangbitkeeper sounds like something you would download X rated movies using...oops! I'm logged :)11:21
ChrisHsivang: You mean like the "pornviewer" debian package? :)11:21
plovs_bitkeeper is used by the panteon themselves11:21
plovs_pantheon, i mean11:21
sivangthat is by far, the most hilarious package name in the history of OS11:21
sivangwho are the pantheon ?11:22
plovs_and it as unfree as can be, and linus likes it11:22
plovs_the kernel-people11:22
plovs_which is, i think, rather funny11:22
plovs_i agree with the free software people, but fanatism is always bad, even if you're right11:23
ChrisHI listened to a discussion in #ubuntu-devel today and it scared me a bit. Sounded like an 'arch sect' for a moment.11:25
sivangdo we have it all loggified ? :)11:26
sivangbitkeeper is not open source?11:26
plovs_sivang, very much not11:27
ChrisHIt's free. But not open source.11:27
sivangand linus has no problem with it?11:30
ChrisHWhy should he? As long as it's not eating the code... :)11:34
sivangmaybe we should wait for HURD to become production quality...but then again we're back to the arch issue11:34
ChrisHI can only hope that Ubuntu will continue to not breed evangelists. Let's allow arch, cvs, subversion and even notepad.exe if people like. Even if Mark loves Python let's have Tcl, Perl and PHP around.11:34
sivangto be quoted on the next CC meeting...11:34
plovs_sivang, Linus is a funny guy, he wouldn't fit very well into debian(-legal)11:34
sivangas long as he give the kernel source for free..11:34
sivangand have it GPLd11:34
plovs_as he said once, he uses the best tool for the job11:34
ChrisHEverbody is talking about freedom of choice but there can only be one... :)11:34
sivangyes I recall that.11:36
plovs_ChrisH, did you notice, somebody asked today for 500 lines in the log, would that be hard to add?11:36
ChrisHplovs_: Not at all hard.11:37
ChrisHplovs_: done11:37
plovs_ok, i do not remeber who, but he'll be happy11:39
ChrisHI'll charge him later. :)11:43
ChrisHOkay... time to nap again. plovs_, I'll check in a few changes to the "general" section which I intend to get done tomorrow.11:45
ChrisHplovs_: did you read my suggestions a couple of lines above?11:45
plovs_ok, i'm off as well11:46
plovs_which ones, i'm half asleep11:46
ChrisHplovs_: please check the logs tomorrow :)11:46
plovs_ok, see ya!11:47
plovs_goodnight sivang!11:47
sivangsleep tight11:47

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