[12:04] <ChrisH> Who would usually hold the copyright of the FAQ? All authors (Gnome proposes that)? Or just "The Ubuntu Documentation Team"?
[12:08] <sivang> Ubuntu Documentation Project
[12:08] <sivang> maybe?
[12:09] <ChrisH> According to the web site it's the "Documentation Team".
[12:11] <sivang> ok, then.
[12:11] <sivang> I have no idea what would be the better choise
[12:11] <ChrisH> I just wondered who the copyright holder is.
[12:11] <WW> ChrisH: Interesting question.  
[12:11] <sivang> add 'All Authors' maybe like in gnome?
[12:11] <ChrisH> The single authors like Gnome uses it following the GDP guidelines... or the whole team.
[12:12] <WW> For comparison... Is the Linux kernel copyrighted?  Who holds that copyright?
[12:15] <ChrisH> WW: Everybody knows that. SCO of course.
[12:15] <WW> :)
[12:19] <ChrisH> Everybody who is curious... http://workaround.org/ubuntu/faq.html is the HTML output. http://workaround.org/ubuntu/faq.xml is the DocBook'ed template. You may download it and run it through 'yelp'. Not completely done but works mostly.
[12:19] <ChrisH> fg
[12:19] <ChrisH> oops
[12:20] <ChrisH> Hmmm. Yelp isn't very good in displaying qandasets.
[12:22] <WW> ChrisH: Something's wrong.
[12:23] <WW> You've listed plovs as a co-author, but there are no icons in the document.
[12:23] <ChrisH> WW: lol
[12:23] <ChrisH> WW: You scared me. :)
[12:24] <WW> Talk about being scared...  I hate to think of the icon he finds for headless servers.
[12:24] <ChrisH> That will at least keep him occupied. :)
[12:27] <ChrisH> Anyway... I'll get a quick nap. See you in my dreams. And if horbeck comes back in: I'll help him later (in about 8 hours if he is still awake then).
[01:44] <sivang> hey there again, john
[01:45] <hornbeck> hey
[01:46] <sivang> how is the server going?
[01:46] <hornbeck> boy this server is pissing me off
[01:46] <hornbeck> i have got nothing else done
[01:46] <sivang> yeah, I've heared
[01:46] <hornbeck> now the isp is telling me that my ip's are not public
[01:46] <sivang> well don't get too down because of it,
[01:46] <hornbeck> even though they are supposed to be
[01:46] <sivang> huh?
[01:46] <sivang> then sue them
[01:46] <sivang> :)
[01:47] <hornbeck> what I would not give to be writting docs :-)
[01:47] <hornbeck> are you running hoary yet?
[01:47] <sivang> yes
[01:47] <hornbeck> is it working ok?
[01:49] <hornbeck> you still there?
[01:54] <sivang> yes
[01:56] <sivang> working pretty fine, what have you stumbled into?
[02:14] <sivang> anyway, night all
[03:04] <hornbeck> back already?
[04:54] <hornbeck> hey George
[05:10] <George^Deka> hi hornbeck 
[05:14] <George^Deka> plovs: noticed in the logs you were after a windows desktop using one here now, i have not got ubuntu installed on this because of my slackness
[05:16] <hornbeck> I don't remember why I needed one
[05:18] <George^Deka> hornbeck: that was to plovs
[05:18] <George^Deka> think he was after something like tomboy
[05:18] <hornbeck> hehe, yeah I see that now
[05:20] <George^Deka> im bored - should be studding for uni exam 2morrow
[05:26] <hornbeck> I should be working on my server
[05:26] <hornbeck> but I am watching tv with my 6 year old
[05:27] <hornbeck> and updating the laptop to hoary
[05:28] <George^Deka> well im still on dialup hell, so ill be with warty till the release probably, unless i download a nightly cd image, but not much point now i would imagine nothing much happened yet in the world of gnome and they are moving over to x.o soon, that may have a hiccup or 2
[05:33] <George^Deka> so hows the book going
[05:37] <hornbeck> I have had a ton of stuff this past week, so no progress really
[05:37] <hornbeck> I am starting to work on the docbook markup though
[05:37] <hornbeck> I am reading through ChrisH's docbook stuff right now
[05:38] <hornbeck> than I will start putting the stylesheet together and start feeling in the blanks
[05:39] <George^Deka> so first book i take it ?
[05:39] <hornbeck> yes
[05:39] <hornbeck> is it noticable?
[05:39] <George^Deka> reading docbook stuff now
[05:40] <George^Deka> there is a good debian book that never got released - debianuniverse.org - if your going to be using a open doc style licence
[05:41] <George^Deka> so you going to write it then hope you find a publisher
[05:42] <hornbeck> yeah, I am hoping to get it published near the hoary release
[05:42] <hornbeck> maybe alittle after so I can get all the updates in
[05:43] <George^Deka> well if you use a cd image a few weeks before hoary then you know what you will be doing, then you may be able to release it at the same time as hoary
[05:44] <George^Deka> i was thinking i would write a book, but then found out you already started i thought stuff it
[05:44] <hornbeck> yeah
[05:44] <hornbeck> if you would like to help with this one feel free
[05:44] <hornbeck> the templete is online
[05:45] <George^Deka> do you have an idea on chapters yet
[05:45] <George^Deka> wheres the template
[05:45] <hornbeck> I am going to have a arch or svn server up in the next couple days
[05:45] <hornbeck> ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LearningUbuntuOutline
[05:45] <George^Deka> yyep
[05:50] <George^Deka> feel free to use my firefox how to as the using firefox page
[05:50] <George^Deka> it is only about 20% done so far
[05:51] <hornbeck> ok
[05:51] <hornbeck> as you get more let me know
[05:51] <hornbeck> I am working on the book right now
[05:51] <hornbeck> ChrisH will help me with the svn server tomorrow
[05:52] <hornbeck> than you can pull down the docbook if you want
[05:54] <George^Deka> well that will be a while before i do that
[05:55] <George^Deka> busy for next few weeks
[05:55] <hornbeck> thats fine
[05:55] <hornbeck> I will keep chugging along
[05:55] <hornbeck> we got about five months :-)
[05:57] <hornbeck> well I am going for a reboot, hoary just got done updating
[05:57] <hornbeck> talk to you later
[05:59] <George^Deka> okay cya\
[06:47] <plovs> morning!
[06:47] <hornbeck> morning
[06:48] <plovs> hornbeck so how is the server today?
[06:48] <WW> hey there
[06:48] <plovs> WW, morning!
[06:48] <hornbeck> don't know how it is working
[06:48] <hornbeck> try it
[06:48] <plovs> WW, i read the logs! no jokes about icons please!
[06:48] <hornbeck> 69.155.172.150
[06:48] <plovs> WW, ;-)
[06:48] <WW> :)
[06:48] <plovs> hornbeck, works!
[06:49] <hornbeck> nice
[06:49] <hornbeck> try opensoftdesign.org
[06:49] <plovs> hornbeck, also works
[06:49] <hornbeck> weeeeeeeeeeee
[06:49] <hornbeck> I cannot check because I am within the network
[06:49] <hornbeck> your running linux right
[06:50] <plovs> yes (among others)
[06:50] <plovs> main desktop linux
[06:50] <hornbeck> would you be willing to try the ssh access for me?
[06:50] <plovs> sure!
[06:50] <plovs> rm -rf / 
[06:50] <hornbeck> haha, never mind
[06:50] <hornbeck> :-p
[06:51] <plovs> nah, been there done that (really,don't ask)
[06:51] <hornbeck> haha, let me finish setting up your account
[06:59] <WW> Hey, while you folks are getting the official FAQ set up with DocBook, can I replace the wiki FrequentlyAskedQuestions with NewFAQTest?
[06:59] <hornbeck> I have not looked but maybe :-)
[07:01] <plovs> WW, we'll wrap it up in a couple of days, then yes
[07:02] <WW> I mean, for now, just rename NewFAQTest to become FrequentlyAskedQuestions.
[07:02] <WW> It has the same content, just converted to reST.
[07:32] <plovs_work> ok, back at work
[07:49] <plovs_work> WW, in that case just move NewFAQTest to FrequentlyAskedQuestions and FrequentlyAskedQuestions to OldFaq (and link it on the page)
[08:57] <ChrisH> Anyone awake already? :)
[08:58] <plovs_work> yep!
[08:58] <plovs_work> from five in the morning
[08:59] <trickie> 7pm here
[09:00] <plovs_work> after we redorated the bedroom yesterday i mixed up the clock and put it two hours off... duh
[09:00] <ChrisH> 9 here
[09:06] <plovs_work> ChrisH, aargh, how come?
[09:08] <ChrisH> plovs_work: No idea really. I can't see if I have x.org. But that's not the problem.
[09:09] <ChrisH> plovs_work: I run evolution-exchange. And every time I'm fetching mails from the exchange server the process grows up to 1 GB eating up all swap... and then dies.
[09:09] <ChrisH> plovs_work: In hoary there is not yet an evolution-exchange package. So I needed to pin/hold. But that failed completely. :(
[09:10] <ChrisH> plovs_work: Do you run hoary already
[09:10] <ChrisH> plovs_work: ?
[09:10] <plovs_work> no, no time to muck around atm
[09:13] <trickie> i am upgrading my hoary install now
[09:18] <plovs_work> how hard is it to upgrade, nned to document it?
[09:20] <trickie> well i didn't really use warty very long before i upgraded, but it was seemless for me
[09:21] <trickie> installed it on friday
[09:22] <plovs_work> ok
[09:22] <plovs_work> ChrisH, looks nice the faq-docbook
[09:28] <plovs_work> ChrisH, what about <note>...</note> how would that format?
[09:28] <plovs_work> ChrisH, and some of the fonts are too small
[09:29] <plovs_work> ChrisH, can we have a faq without the preamble (or put the preamble at the end) ?
[09:33] <trickie> plovs_work: where/how could i have a look at it (the faq)
[09:43] <plovs_work> http://workaround.org/ubuntu/faq.html
[09:43] <plovs_work> this is what we are working on
[09:43] <plovs_work> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
[09:44] <plovs_work> this is the origianl
[09:44] <plovs_work> original
[10:12] <ChrisH> plovs_work: I have just used one of the stylesheets of the web site. So the fonts are probably not correct yet.
[10:19] <ChrisH> plovs_work: Have you tried it with yelp? Looks nice. :)
[10:22] <plovs_work> ChrisH, how do I do that?
[10:24] <ChrisH> plovs_work: Grab the xml file and run it with "yelp foobar.xml"
[10:25] <plovs_work> duh, just did that, sorry i even asked
[10:25] <ChrisH> plovs_work: np :)
[10:25] <plovs_work> ChrisH, this is *really* neat
[10:25] <plovs_work> ChrisH, wow!
[10:26] <ChrisH> plovs_work: Shipping that with Gnome should be fine for end-users.
[10:26] <plovs_work> ChrisH, icons work!!! in yelp, with <note> !!!
[10:26] <ChrisH> Morning, lulu. :)
[10:26] <ChrisH> plovs_work: Argh! Icons... ;)
[10:27] <plovs_work> ChrisH, but seriously this needs to get into hoary, maybe even updated warty
[10:27] <lulu> Morning Chris, Morning All :o)
[10:27] <plovs_work> morning lulu
[10:27] <lulu> :o)
[10:29] <plovs_work> lulu, you know what yelp is?
[10:30] <ChrisH> plovs_work: Indeed. Would you start with that XML file?
[10:30] <lulu> plovs_work: afraid I don't....:o(
[10:30] <plovs_work> ChrisH, yep, today
[10:31] <plovs_work> lulu, it is the gnome help browser, you run ubuntu atm?
[10:31] <plovs_work> ChrisH, but a little later, I do have some questions for you still (you being the local docbook-guru)
[10:32] <plovs_work> lulu, it is in Applications > Help
[10:32] <plovs_work> lulu, are there any plans to add ubuntu-branding to it? It just begs for it
[10:33] <lulu> plovs_work: I'm on Apple Mac atm - but can have a look....ahh - ok - so it needs branding - is there a page in Hoary that is a Hoary wish list you can add it to?
[10:33] <lulu> on the wiki?
[10:34] <plovs_work> lulu, yes, let me find it
[10:34] <ChrisH> plovs_work: Not a guru. :) I'm merely glad it worked so far.
[10:38] <plovs_work> ChrisH, if we make the faq in docbook->html can I refer to a specific question, and can i make the previous link *not* break?
[10:38] <plovs_work> ChrisH, there are already links to the wiki questions
[10:38] <plovs_work> ChrisH, not wiki faq-questions
[10:40] <ChrisH> plovs_work: I'm not sure if I get you. You want to create hyperlink to Wiki pages? Or do you want to link within the docbook-faq?
[10:41] <plovs_work> ChrisH, link within the docbook-faq
[10:42] <ChrisH> plovs_work: Yes, that's possible. See my DocBook wiki page. It should work with the <ulink url="... tag.
[10:43] <plovs_work> lulu, maybe http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SupportedSeedProposals, i asked mdz but no answer yet
[10:45] <lulu> plovs_work - likely that he is still asleep! He's very good at getting back to people so I'm sure he'll answer you when he's up. Send him an email.
[10:49] <plovs_work> lulu, ok, i'll add it then, agreed?
[10:50] <plovs_work> ChrisH, did you notice? is the wiki significantly faster today or is firefox 1.0 faster?
[10:51] <plovs_work> lulu, thanks for your mail
[10:51] <ChrisH> plovs_work: The wiki is always fast during this time (morning time here). Later in the day it's a pain.
[10:52] <plovs_work> ChrisH, too bad, i was just hoping ...
[10:52] <ChrisH> plovs_work: I already considered setting up a local wiki here and test the pages there before uploading.
[10:53] <lulu> plovs_work: email - no worries
[10:54] <plovs_work> ChrisH, its an apt-get away...
[10:55] <lulu> plovs_work:re: yelp - if you think that's the right place!
[10:56] <plovs_work> lulu, we'll fix things today and send you some screenshots tomorrow
[11:03] <lulu> plovs_work - ok :o)
[11:13] <sivang> hey everybody,
[11:13] <sivang> what brings the day?
[11:16] <ChrisH> sivang: work, work, work :)
[11:17] <ChrisH> while ( ! $boss->satisfied() ) { work(harder); }
[11:18] <ChrisH> sivang: Although the docbook xml stuff looks pretty nice already. There is just a quirk that yelp only creates a TOC for the highest level. So there is list of FAQs ins a category. In XHTML this looks good.
[11:18] <sivang> wow, nice to hear that. :)
[11:18] <sivang> then we could just use XHTML , if yelp eats it nicely.
[11:24] <ChrisH> Let's see if future versions of yelp will handle that better (or at least customizable).
[01:02] <sid77> hi
[01:03] <ChrisH> Hi, sid77 
[01:22] <lulu> Hiya sid77
[01:23] <lulu> ChrisH: thanks for your email - I'd like to take a little time to respond to it ok?
[01:24] <ChrisH> lulu: Sure.
[01:25] <George^Deka> hi all
[01:25] <ChrisH> hi, George^Deka 
[01:26] <sid77> hi
[01:40] <George^Deka> seems like the licencing of the docs is still an issue in the ML (even though thought we basically decided during meeting) - unfortunatly i have been missing some mail that i should have been reading - i have just sent my reply to the list any comments
[01:41] <George^Deka> what free software guidlines does ubuntu go by DFSG or OSSF
[01:42] <ChrisH> George^Deka: It has been discussed recently on ubuntu-doc@ whether the GFDL would be appropriate. And it was said that it has license problems of some kind. But I think there is not yet a consensus.
[01:42] <ChrisH> George^Deka: Do you know the differences of those licenses to recommend a license scheme?
[01:43] <ChrisH> George^Deka: btw: there is a mailman list archive in case you missed anything
[01:43] <George^Deka> ChrisH: i know from what i have read on debian-legal based off the DWN
[01:44] <George^Deka> ChrisH: my post sheds more lite, finding the wiki page now
[01:44] <ChrisH> George^Deka: found it
[01:45] <George^Deka> GFDL DSFG non-free http://people.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/Position_Statement.xhtml
[01:46] <ChrisH> Ah... my good old friend Manoj. :)
[01:47] <George^Deka> ChrisH: manoj ?
[01:48] <ChrisH> George^Deka: Manjos Srivastava. Got flamed by him badly once or twice. ;)
[02:01] <George^Deka> from what i can see ubuntu follows the FSF guidlines which means we can use GFDL, however i think some people have honest issues about it in the doc team (those which concur with the issues of debian-legal) because most of the team from my understanding come from a debian background and love free as in speach not beer
[02:01] <George^Deka> sorry about spelling, cant be bothered trying to correct it all
[02:14] <George^Deka> ChrisH: from what i have said do you understand anymore or less ? 
[02:15] <George^Deka> brb somko time, then if theres any chit chat hang around for a bit or otherwise bed - exam in 9 hours exactly
[02:16] <ChrisH> George^Deka: Yes, more less than more. But I remotely remember I have read that before. I'm not a legal things guru. So You think that OSSF is the only decent way?
[02:16] <George^Deka> ChrisH: well i was getting OSSF and FSF mixed up - they are some thing i had wrong acronym
[02:17] <George^Deka> ChrisH: well i think what licence we use comes down to what guidlines ubuntu follows (from what i can see FSF)
[02:18] <George^Deka> ChrisH: cause if FSF we can use GFDL otherwise if we use DFSG we cannot use GFDL
[02:19] <George^Deka> ChrisH: but of cource i think some ppl may have issues with GFDL - such as the non-changable parts of content etc.
[02:20] <ChrisH> I'm not sure about the legal status of those licenses. And sometimes the discussions in debian-legal are hard to follow IMHO. In addition some people are just talking there. Hmmm.
[02:20] <plovs_work> hi guys, I'm glad we got people who are in to licenses
[02:20] <plovs_work> my head always starts spinning after a couple of minutes
[02:23] <George^Deka> back
[02:23] <hornbeck> good morning
[02:24] <George^Deka> well i do have a okay understanding how law works - studied 2 units of it - was going to become a lawyer but then decided against it (mainly didnt get into the course)
[02:25] <George^Deka> plovs_work: do you understand anything i have said - i am trying to simplify it down as best as i can
[02:25] <George^Deka> morning hornbeck (well nite for me)
[02:26] <George^Deka> hornbeck: if you know anything bout licences or are interested check the log
[02:27] <George^Deka> ChrisH: i only ever consider the full consecus of debian-legal as i know they have lawyers on the team
[02:27] <hornbeck> I will George
[02:28] <plovs_work> George^Deka, to be honest, i must read the meaning of all the abbreviations first, i know bsd and gpl and lgpl, that's it
[02:28] <plovs_work> hornbeck, morning!
[02:29] <plovs_work> btw Jakub Steiner said he would try to draw a wiki-icon for us (he is one of the main gnome artists)
[02:29] <GeorgeD> plovs_work: well DFSG is Debian Free Software Guidlines - FSF is the Free Software Foundation
[02:30] <GeorgeD> does anyone know of anyone @ canonical that makes the decisions on licences etc... would be good to get them talking
[02:30] <plovs_work> GeorgeD, ok, i just backread the log and mail now
[02:31] <GeorgeD> plovs_work: cool
[02:31] <GeorgeD> anyone know if mdz is awake ?
[02:32] <plovs_work> GeorgeD, doesn't look like it, yet
[02:32] <plovs_work> GeorgeD, what are invariant sections?
[02:33] <GeorgeD> plovs_work: they are sections of a document that you can specify cannot be varied
[02:33] <GeorgeD> plovs_work: which makes those sections non-free
[02:34] <GeorgeD> plovs_work: IMO
[02:36] <plovs_work> GeorgeD, sorry i am not a native english speaker, cannot be varried eg, people are not allowed to mess with it?
[02:37] <hornbeck> man the stupid isp is still messing up my ip range
[02:37] <GeorgeD> plovs_work: exactly those sections cannont be changed (varied = changed)
[02:37] <hornbeck> bahhhh
[02:38] <hornbeck> ChrisH, plovs: I have the book set to docbook and have a decent little start to it
[02:38] <plovs_work> hornbeck, da man!
[02:38] <hornbeck> I would like everyone to be able to see it in the next few days and give suggestions
[02:38] <GeorgeD> ChrisH: the irclog yours ? if so any chance can get like 500 lines or something the change between 100 and 1000 is way too huge
[02:38] <hornbeck> soon, as this server works :-)
[02:38] <plovs_work> hornbeck, did you see the faq in yelp?
[02:39] <plovs_work> GeorgeD, do we have documentation that says that, invariant sections?
[02:40] <hornbeck> yes
[02:40] <hornbeck> my email is not hornbeck@aol
[02:41] <hornbeck> bastards :-)
[02:41] <ChrisH> hornbeck: Uh, err, hmm, well, a software error I suppose. :)
[02:42] <ChrisH> hornbeck: btw, I'm preparing the steps for the repository here so we know exactly what to do. :) I used SSH in the past. But I think WebDAV through Apache2 would be better.
[02:42] <ChrisH> hornbeck: btw, hi :)
[02:42] <ChrisH> hornbeck: Did you get your ISP connection up and running? It's bad that our time zones are so different. :(
[02:42] <GeorgeD> plovs_work: Do you mean does any of our docs have invariant sections atm - then i think no - but the issue is that our docs can then be modified and make with sections that cannot be changed
[02:46] <plovs_work> GeorgeD, where is a page with debian compliant licenses? we would like to send stuff upstream, i think
[02:48] <GeorgeD> plovs_work: debian-legal wiki http://wiki.debian.net/index.cgi?DFSGLicences
[02:48] <GeorgeD> I have just found what i have been trying to find all night the actual ubuntu stance on licences - http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/licensing/document_view
[02:49] <GeorgeD> In particuar this section - Ubuntu "main" Component Licence Policy - Must allow modification and distribution of modified copies under the same licence. Just having the source code does not convey the same freedom as having the right to change it. Without the ability to modify software, the Ubuntu community cannot support software, fix bugs, translate it or improve it.
[02:50] <GeorgeD> reading that it poses a good question can invariant sections be translated - question for the writers of the GFDL
[02:51] <GeorgeD> can someone please make sure lulu and enrico reads this
[02:53] <GeorgeD> plovs_work: GFDL cannot be sent upstream
[02:59] <GeorgeD> anyone awake ?
[02:59] <GeorgeD> otherwise it will be nite
[03:01] <ChrisH> GeorgeD: Good luck with your exam. :)
[03:01] <GeorgeD> ChrisH: thanks ill need it - it is 8 hours away and i dont know a thing and its bedtime now
[03:02] <GeorgeD> ChrisH: thats the problem with everyone in diff time zones
[03:02] <plovs_work> GeorgeD, thanks, good night
[03:02] <GeorgeD> ChrisH: bloody australia
[03:03] <ChrisH> GeorgeD: You don't know a thing? Whow...
[03:04] <GeorgeD> ChrisH: well i know some but not enough jack all of the theory - i been slack with the uni work been too busy with ubuntu, firefox and slashdot
[03:06] <GeorgeD> can someone do me a favour if you see mdz ask him to talk to about licenses then tell me
[03:07] <GeorgeD> bloody printer low on ink
[03:07] <GeorgeD> if anyone here has a managment major i need quick help/teaching on mckinsey's 7 S's
[03:09] <GeorgeD> final nite all
[03:09] <sivang> anyboyd has new updates on the GFDL thing?
[03:10] <GeorgeD> sivang: now your awake - read the backlog
[03:10] <GeorgeD> sivang: been discussing it for last hour at least
[03:10] <sivang> I saw a post about it being the choosen license.
[03:10] <sivang> GeorgeD : oh, sorry, will read the backlog
[03:10] <GeorgeD> sivang: i totally disagree
[03:10] <GeorgeD> sivang: email me what you think of my opinion
[03:11] <GeorgeD> i do not want GFDL and think it does not meet http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/licensing/document_view - and if will take it all the way so we dont have to have it
[03:11] <GeorgeD> sivang: i also think it may cause an issue for translations
[03:12] <plovs_work> hi sivang!
[03:13] <GeorgeD> sivang: will stay up for another 5 minutes if you need me to but otherwise bed in 1 minute
[03:14] <sivang> GeorgeD : no problem, go to bed - I will read the latest posts and through the backlog
[03:14] <sivang> thanks!
[03:14] <GeorgeD> sivang: sweet as
[03:15] <GeorgeD> lulu: if you read this from who did you get the conculsion GFDL wins ?
[03:15] <GeorgeD> nite all
[03:15] <sivang> night
[03:17] <plovs_work> hornbeck, how is the firewall going?
[03:40] <asw> GeorgeD: I had to leave early from the doc meeting but I asked hornbeck to put in my vote for the GPL as doc license.  I think the GFDL should be permitted in Ubuntu on a case by case basis.  Respectfully, I think you are wrong that it's non-free  but it's a klunky license and there is no need to use it by default.
[03:42] <asw> On the other hand, being forced to create a mechanism to deal with "non-technical" invariant sections (aka political speech) is probably a good thing. [tm]  
[03:46] <lulu> I just sent an email on licensing: GeorgeD: Mark is keen for it to be GFDL, but this will not be forced. The creator of the document can choose what license they wish to use. Derived works will remain under the license of the originator. I think this will cover the discussions to date.
[03:48] <sivang> lulu : yes, I think so pretty much, sounds reasonable on this stage.
[03:49] <lulu> all: thoughts?
[03:50] <ChrisH> lulu: According to discussions on debian-devel the GFDL is considered non-free. But I'm not sure if Ubuntu enforces the same legal standards as Debian. (Oh how I hate that lawyer talks.) I think I would use the GFDL anyway.
[03:51] <asw> asw: obviously fine with me.  I think the bugs in the GFDL will be fixed, so, I have no problems with the GFDL.  And most importantly it's the only license that emphasizes that bits should be licensed differently if they are put to different human purposes.  
[03:51] <asw> that was for you lulu 
[03:52] <sivang> on my documents ofcourse.
[03:53] <asw> my preference is to use the GPL for most things to because it's nice to be able to cut and paste between source to documentation.   
[03:56] <lulu> Ok - so everyone can choose what they are most comfortable with.
[03:56] <lulu> How's the documentation writing and polishing going?
[03:56] <plovs_work> we'll work on the faq today, converting it to docbook
[03:57] <ChrisH> lulu: We are currently setting up the repository for the FAQ (hornbeck had some network problems). The DocBook/XML template for the news FAQ is ready. plovs_work is already converting.
[03:57] <ChrisH> lulu: Would we rather upload the processed HTML manually to a Wiki page? Or would it be okay to either upload it directly or have it on another server (like faq.ubuntu.workaround.org or such)?
[03:59] <lulu> ChrisH: I think it could be ok to upload directly....any security issues?
[03:59] <lulu> It should all be on our server if at all possible.
[04:00] <asw> Belaboring the licensing point.  I had lunch with RMS yesterday and after two and a half hours of intersting conversation I am even more convinced that he's right that we should be really careful about not using the same license for protecting ideas in the "creative commons" versus the "science commons" versus the "software commons".  We shouldn't automatically use the GPL because it's what we know.  (For example, what license should
[04:00] <asw>  be used for http://parts.mit.edu ?) Now, back to docbook and FAQs. 
[04:00] <ChrisH> lulu: How would we access it? Out plan is to auto-process the DocBook file to XHTML and upload it. FTP access? SSH access?
[04:00] <asw> PS. Can the DocBook/XML template be used to produce plain text? 
[04:01] <lulu> You can upload the HTML file within the Documentation area - Browse and select the file....wouldn't that be sufficient?
[04:04] <ChrisH> lulu: Hard to do it automatically. But for updates once every few days that should be possible.
[04:04] <ChrisH> lulu: Or you set up a cron job that fetches the HTML page from the repository and puts it online.
[04:04] <sivang> wow asw, I dind't know you were into biological computation :) nice
[04:05] <ChrisH> asw: I think so.
[04:06] <lulu> ChrisH: mmmm - I think we need to chat to admins and plone pepes to see what we can do....what is "going for gold"!
[04:07] <ChrisH> asw: the "xmlto" package provides converters for DocBook to plain text. And if nothing helps we'll "just" write our own XSLT.
[04:08] <ChrisH> lulu: Yes. I don't have more access to your server(s) than plain Wiki. So it's hard to decide what would be best. I'm used to script a lot on my web servers.
[04:09] <asw> sivang: yeah. I have somewhat eclectic professional interests.  
[04:10] <sivang> ChrisH : yelp failing on me , it cannot find the faq.xml's stylesheet, should I install something for it?
[04:10] <lulu> ChrisH: Let's put forward the options - pls email me and I will get that explored ok!? thanks Chris :o)
[04:11] <ChrisH> sivang: Stylesheet? Is yelp not properly installed?
[04:11] <ChrisH> lulu: Sure.
[04:11] <lulu> ChrisH: thanks :o)
[04:11] <asw> ChrisH: I'm reading the logs.  I'm the maintainer of "pmars" the reference implementation for the game corewar. So I can be a test-case for the "new package" process.  I'd also like to put the REC.GAMES.COREWAR faq into docbook using your tools. 
[04:12] <sivang> ChrisH : xsl:import : unable to load /usr/share/xml/gnome/xslt/docbook/html/db2html.xsl
[04:12] <sivang> compilation error: file /usr/share/sgml/docbook/yelp/db2html.xsl line 7 element import
[04:14] <ChrisH> asw: Yes, sure.
[04:14] <ChrisH> sivang: Very strange. I can run it without problems on Warty here.
[04:15] <sivang> ohh
[04:15] <sivang> I'm using hoary
[04:15] <sivang> :)
[04:19] <ChrisH> sivang: Hoary is not covered by your support contract. ;)
[04:20] <sivang> haha
[04:20] <sivang> right
[04:21] <ChrisH> asw: What is the "new package process"? Did I miss anything? (Well, I probably miss most things.)
[04:22] <sivang> new maintainers process I think :)
[04:23] <ChrisH> Is there such a thing? I only read discussions about it. And on #-devel I heard that the packages are mainly coming from Debian with only very few exceptions.
[04:25] <sivang> mostly for main supported packages, if I am not mistaken
[04:28] <asw> ChrisH: "new package process" it's more like a new maintainer process. I think sivang is one of the early test-cases.   (or maybe I'm mixing up names.)
[04:28] <sivang> no, I am :)
[04:30] <asw> My understanding is that people should be able to contribute to universe first with the intention of contributing to debian later. (So a person can start out as an apprentice ubuntu maintainer but with the understanding they'd probably become a debian maintainer too.)  
[04:31] <asw> sivang: are you a debian maintainer already? Is that something you are considering?
[04:31] <sivang> asw : I have, however I am not sure how much time will be left for me to care for debian maintainerships at the moment.
[04:32] <ChrisH> asw: I have put myself on the MaintainerCandidates page. And although I've been contributing to Debian for two years by now I could imagine to help maintaining packages here before the DAM approves me. ;)
[04:32] <sivang> you can
[04:32] <sivang> I think so.
[05:00] <ChrisH> plovs: Would you like to join the repository already? This is temporary until hornbeck gets his server up. Then we can migrate it (nothing gets lost!).
[05:00] <ChrisH> plovs: Just install the "subversion" package and run "svn checkout http://ubuntu.workaround.org:8080/faq"
[05:00] <sivang> we already have a repository?
[05:01] <ChrisH> sivang: I have set it up to record what steps we need to run on hornbeck's server.
[05:01] <sivang> oh nice.
[05:01] <ChrisH> sivang: I imagine it will be a few days until it's up and running. (Time zones, DNS records, routing, firewalls and all that.)
[05:02] <sivang> yes, that's a nice groccesries list.
[05:02] <sivang> :)
[05:02] <ChrisH> sivang: Yeah, a few details can keep you occupied until the server runs.
[05:02] <ChrisH> sivang: Of course you are invited to try it out too (even if you don't intend to contribute currently).
[05:03] <ChrisH> The files are publicly readable at: http://torf.workaround.org:8080/faq/
[05:03] <sivang> I will put there StartingTheJourney :)
[05:03] <plovs> ChrisH, ok, thanks
[05:03] <ChrisH> Just committing changes will require a user name and password (that I will create for everybody here of course).
[05:03] <sivang> thank ChrisH !
[05:05] <ChrisH> Cool... uploading even works through our squid proxy. :)
[05:06] <plovs> ChrisH how can i check in?
[05:07] <plovs> ChrisH, checkout works
[05:07] <ChrisH> plovs: Run "svn ci". We need to create an account for you first. I'll use "plovs" as a user name. Please /msg me the password you like to get assigned.
[05:10] <plovs> ChrisH, ok?
[05:11] <ChrisH> plovs: go for it
[05:11] <ChrisH> plovs: I have submitted revision 2. Yours should become 3.
[05:14] <plovs> can i add a new file as well?
[05:15] <ChrisH> Ah... back again
[05:15] <ChrisH> plovs: Yes. "svn add filename"
[05:15] <ChrisH> plovs: "svn stat" shows you which files are new, local or will be uploaded.
[05:16] <ChrisH> If you are interested I'll write a tiny Wiki page on the most frequently needed SVN commands. Not many actually.
[05:18] <ChrisH> I'll write a quick page on how to set up a repository and on how to use it. Will probably save some time for you. And it helps hornbeck get the steps done quickly.
[05:24] <plovs> ChrisH, that would be great
[05:26] <plovs> ChrisH, just added my faq_ap.xml to it
[05:26] <plovs> will start to work on it now
[05:27] <ChrisH> plovs: ap?
[05:27] <plovs> ChrisH, btw do you do folding with vim?
[05:27] <plovs> ChrisH, my initials
[05:27] <plovs> ChrisH, docbook folds very nice
[05:28] <ChrisH> plovs: Ah... you may as well put your sections directly into the faq.xml (that's what it's for).
[05:29] <ChrisH> plovs: the repository will merge all changes automatically. So I can even work on the header while you are adding the old FAQ.
[05:29] <plovs> aaah, me stone-age man me make fire!
[05:29] <ChrisH> plovs: Hey, no problem. :) Not everybody on the rotten planet has worked that much with repositories before.
[05:31] <plovs> ChrisH what is the reason you use <title> <para> now instead of <question> <answer> ?
[05:32] <plovs> just found out it doesn't work in yelp
[05:32] <plovs> duh
[05:32] <ChrisH> plovs: yelp does not seem to be able to use qandasets properly. I have done a few experiments yesterday. As Yelp and XHTML are the main output formats we will probably need I thought it would be better like this.
[05:32] <ChrisH> plovs: Sorry if I made you double-work.
[05:34] <plovs> no pro, i hadn't done much, more mucking around with vim and docbook then anything else
[05:34] <plovs> i love vim
[05:37] <ChrisH> I'm out for an hour. Gotta go home.
[05:37] <ChrisH> Online: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SubVersion
[07:35] <hornbeck> 69.155.172.150/hornbeck
[07:36] <hornbeck> the start of the "Learning Ubuntu GNU/Linux" is there
[07:36] <hornbeck> docbook form
[07:36] <hornbeck> check it out
[07:36] <hornbeck> I have to go back to work now :-)
[07:36] <sivang> nice!!
[07:36] <sivang> :)
[07:40] <lulu> night guys - catch ya tomorrow :o)
[07:40] <sivang> bye lulu
 the start of the "Learning Ubuntu GNU/Linux" is there
[07:43] <cenerentola> where?
[07:43] <cenerentola> sorry i lost the first part
[07:47] <hornbeck> 69.155.172.150/hornbeck
[07:47] <hornbeck> thats where
[07:49] <ChrisH> hornbeck: did you get your network working?
[07:50] <ChrisH> hornbeck: Great.
[07:50] <hornbeck> is it working?
[07:50] <ChrisH> hornbeck: I have summarized what you would need to do to create the repository. See http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SubVersion
[07:50] <ChrisH> hornbeck: Yes, could reach it.
[07:50] <hornbeck> nice
[07:50] <hornbeck> :-)
[07:51] <hornbeck> for how long it will work, I don't know
[07:51] <ChrisH> hornbeck: Why's that?
[07:51] <hornbeck> well I have to run, I am on lunch
[07:51] <hornbeck> ChrisH: seems to still be having problems
[07:51] <hornbeck> but it is being fixed
[07:52] <ChrisH> hornbeck: okay... let's talk when you have time
[07:52] <hornbeck> I will be back in four hours
[07:52] <ChrisH> uh
[07:52] <ChrisH> ok
[08:32] <D4ni31> hui
[08:32] <ChrisH> Yo
[08:32] <littlepaul> ChrisH, hast du #ubuntu-doc ins Leben gerufen?
[08:33] <ChrisH> Nicht alleine. Im doc team-Meeting letzte Woche Donnerstag in #ubuntu-meeting wurde beschlossen, dass man intensiver an der Doku arbeiten wollte. Und da hat man sich auf #ubuntu-doc geeinigt.
[08:33] <littlepaul> danke fr die Info
[08:34] <littlepaul> finden team-Meetings regelmig statt?
[08:34] <ChrisH> littlepaul: Every thursday IIRC. sivang: was it thursday that the doc team meeetings are taking place?
[08:36] <sivang> It was last time, we might keep it that way if it's good for the members.
[08:36] <sivang> However, I don't mind setting a new day or not having a "special" day of the week.
[08:36] <sivang> meetings should work for us, not the other way around :)
[08:37] <ChrisH> We'll probably not find a time that satisfies everyone.
[08:37] <littlepaul> ist wohl wahr
[08:38] <ChrisH> Yes, we better keep it english here. :)
[08:55] <plovs> ChrisH, already 30 sections, svn works nicely
[08:56] <ChrisH> plovs: That reminds me... I need to create the script that automatically creates HTML files with every submission.
[08:57] <ChrisH> plovs: will you remove the faq_ap.xml file again?
[08:57] <plovs> ChrisH, how?
[08:57] <ChrisH> svn rm faq_ap.xml ; svn ci
[08:58] <plovs> ok (not in the howto)
[08:58] <ChrisH> Yes, I know. :)
[08:58] <ChrisH> I didn't intend to copy the subversion book. If you are interested you should read a few chapters there. It's really interesting. And by far not as complicated as CVS.
[09:00] <plovs> ChrisH, will do, so svn it is? not arch (i have no preference yet)
[09:00] <plovs> ChrisH, it seems kind of a vi-emcs think
[09:00] <ChrisH> I just read a lot of documents about "subversion versus arch".
[09:00] <plovs> and?
[09:00] <ChrisH> See the last paragraph of the README I just committed.
[09:00] <plovs> ok
[09:01] <plovs> in faq?
[09:01] <ChrisH> yes
[09:02] <ChrisH> Perhaps parts of Ubuntu are kept in 'arch' currently. But it's a lot like "you'll love it or hate it". After reading the docs I found out that the author mainly wrote it to become famous and to make money with it.
[09:02] <ChrisH> I prefer using easy solutions instead of following people that say "this is what serious developers use - screw everything else".
[09:02] <plovs> pwd
[09:02] <plovs> /home/plovs/Documents/Ubuntu/SVN/faq
[09:02] <plovs> [white]  faq > ls
[09:02] <plovs> Makefile  faq.xml  faq.xml~  svn-commit.tmp~  ubuntu.xs
[09:03] <ChrisH> cvs up
[09:03] <ChrisH> errr
[09:03] <ChrisH> svn up
[09:03] <ChrisH> I just committed the changes. So you need to check out other people's (my) changes first.
[09:03] <plovs> i did svn ci 50x duh, reading docs is good
[09:03] <ChrisH> Nah, docs are for wimps. :)
[09:04] <ChrisH> There are really only 4 or 5 important commands that you need to know.
[09:05] <ChrisH> plovs: Would you consider using <sect2> sections for the questions? I intended to have <sect1> for the major categories.
[09:05] <plovs> well, for our 3 docs i think i can settle for the inferior of the two then (me being a superior hacker and all)
[09:05] <plovs> meaning svn
[09:05] <plovs> ChrisH, ok
[09:06] <plovs> ChrisH, question, how do i put the following lines in docbook: (carefull small flood follows)
[09:07] <plovs> Pressed CDs
[09:07] <plovs> Will you really ship CDs free of charge, and where can I get one?
[09:07] <plovs> If you cannot download CDs, or would simply like more attractive pressed CDs, we can send you pressed copies of the Install CD free of charge.
[09:07] <plovs> you see? Pressed CDs <sect1>
[09:08] <plovs> Will you really ship <sect2>
[09:08] <plovs> If you cannot <the rest
[09:08] <plovs> how should i do it instead?
[09:08] <ChrisH> This way we would have 500 sect1's.
[09:09] <ChrisH> IMHO categories are very important here.
[09:09] <plovs> i know, it looks like, not so good
[09:09] <plovs> agreed, i just do not know how to do it
[09:09] <ChrisH> plovs: Look at the few questions I have already entered.
[09:09] <plovs> yes
[09:09] <ChrisH> plovs: I thought that would serve as a good template
[09:09] <ChrisH> We surely don't know what all the categories will be called yet
[09:10] <ChrisH> But it will be easier to move around FAQs than moving all sect1 to sect2.
[09:10] <plovs> hmm, but the sec1 tags can just be removed right?
[09:10] <plovs> what if i just dump it all in, then we make sections?
[09:11] <plovs> or we make sections first?
[09:11] <ChrisH> Yes, good idea (dump it).
[09:11] <plovs> or i just dump it all in at sec2?
[09:11] <plovs> and forget about the classification used in the faq atm
[09:12] <ChrisH> please look at my example in "SECTION: UBUNTU IN GENERAL". Every FAQ is just <sect2><title>...</title><para>...</para></sect2>
[09:12] <ChrisH> So sect1 will deliver the categories later.
[09:12] <plovs> i know, i just wrapped them all in a second sec1, like an extra useless blanket
[09:13] <plovs> let them be cold, no more extra sect1! forget it! it's over!
[09:13] <plovs> only sect2!
[09:16] <ChrisH> :)
[09:16] <ChrisH> plovs: Thanks.
[09:16] <ChrisH> plovs: Glad we agree on that.
[09:18] <plovs> ChrisH, wait till i start bargaining for icons next time... (but Chris last time we did it your way...)
[09:20] <ChrisH> I knew there was a catch in this "consensus". :)
[09:21] <ChrisH> Sheesh. The more comments on arch versus subversion I read I see that it's a "discussion" like Gentoo versus Debian. Gentoo is better. It must be! It's faster! I's customized. It's *your* system. Nothing else is as good as it. It makes you smart.
[09:21] <ChrisH> Where by now all the 'arch' users have been bashing and the 'subversion' users seeked comments for improvements.
[09:29] <trickie__> see ya guys
[09:51] <plovs> ChrisH, ok, initial copying is done, i did not copy the links yet
[09:52] <plovs> ChrisH, what about the wiki faq?
[09:54] <plovs> i make a backup copy and then start moving stuff around
[10:06] <ChrisH> The Wiki FAQ has not really a good quality. We should carefully check which entries are worth moving.
[10:45] <plovs> ok, time for review
[10:46] <plovs> ChrisH, more less categories etc?
[10:47] <ChrisH> plovs: Okay, checking... 0%... 1%... 2%...
[10:47] <ChrisH> plovs: Very good structure so far.
[10:48] <ChrisH> plovs: Actually it's very nice to have auto icons added to <note>...</note> sections :)
[10:49] <plovs> ChrisH, i just *had* to put one in
[10:49] <ChrisH> plovs: where?
[10:49] <ChrisH> plovs: Ah, the one <note>... yes :)
[10:51] <ChrisH> plovs: We can worry about the categories later. Did you include everything that was on both FAQs in the Wiki?
[10:52] <plovs> ChrisH, we should have it checked, i might accidently have deleted something, moving stuff around
[10:52] <plovs> no, not from the wiki, only the support faq
[10:52] <ChrisH> IMHO the support FAQ is the more important page.
[10:53] <plovs> ChrisH, i think we should finish this one and then slowly put things from the wiki faq in
[10:54] <ChrisH> Agreed.
[10:54] <ChrisH> plovs: Is 'configuratoin' and 'installation' really different things?
[10:54] <ChrisH> plovs: 'contributing' should be moved to the bottom imho
[10:57] <ChrisH> plovs: And you should edit your own <author> section at the beginning of the file
[10:57] <ChrisH> plovs: And add yourself to the copyright
[11:07] <plovs_> ChrisH, did your bot stop?
[11:08] <plovs_> :-)
[11:09] <ChrisH> plovs_: Yes, unfortunately I made a mistake on mentors.debian.net today which disconnected the machine for about 6 hours. :(
[11:10] <plovs_> ah well...
[11:12] <plovs_> duh?
[11:12] <plovs_> what do you mean i have quit?
[11:12] <plovs_> stupid computer
[11:14] <plovs_> ChrisH, http://verbum.org/blog/freesoftware/stofsrc
[11:15] <plovs_> ChrisH, colin walters isn't he an ubuntu person as well?
[11:15] <ChrisH> colin watson? Yes.
[11:16] <ChrisH> But what a stupid thing to say: "it [subversion]  will never let me hack while disconnected on my laptop". Of course it does. What's the problem about having a central repository?
[11:16] <ChrisH> The arguments from arch-lovers are really childish. "CVS is a joke." "Subversion will never be a distributed system." Hell!
[11:17] <ChrisH> Some guys on #ubuntu-devel are really great hackers. But their blind love for 'arch' is disturbing.
[11:17] <ChrisH> The very same people haven't complained about CVS for years. And now all of a sudden even other improved systems are worthless. Yeah, right.
[11:17] <sivang> isn't subversion already a distributed system?
[11:18] <ChrisH> Of course.
[11:18] <sivang> so what do they base their arguments on
[11:18] <sivang> ?
[11:18] <ChrisH> It has a central storage. But so what. Everybody is free to work around as long as they like.
[11:18] <ChrisH> In Arch you don't have a server at all. It's all like "file sharing" (P2P).
[11:19] <sivang> ah, that sounds hmmm, how to put it nice for the log?
[11:19] <ChrisH> What annoys me is that they are complaining that the Subversion developers are arrogant (the mailing list reads quite nicely IMHO) and CVS is dead (since when?). But everything that drops out of the author of 'arch' is arrogant bullshit.
[11:20] <sivang> Boy, didn't know that even versioning systems have their share of religious wars.
[11:20] <plovs_> how would bitkeeper fit into this? arch-like or subversion-like?
[11:20] <ChrisH> http://www.red-bean.com/sussman/svn-anti-fud.html
[11:20] <ChrisH> Haven't used Bitkeeper every.
[11:20] <plovs_> sivang, yes, and bitkeeper is the worst of all :)
[11:21] <ChrisH> Amiga/Atari. Vi/Emacs. Subversion/Arch. I'm so tired of that. And I'm disappointed that core developers start that fight again. They really should know better.
[11:21] <sivang> bitkeeper sounds like something you would download X rated movies using...oops! I'm logged :)
[11:21] <ChrisH> sivang: You mean like the "pornviewer" debian package? :)
[11:21] <plovs_> bitkeeper is used by the panteon themselves
[11:21] <sivang> haha
[11:21] <plovs_> pantheon, i mean
[11:21] <sivang> that is by far, the most hilarious package name in the history of OS
[11:21] <sivang> :)
[11:22] <sivang> who are the pantheon ?
[11:22] <plovs_> and it as unfree as can be, and linus likes it
[11:22] <plovs_> the kernel-people
[11:22] <plovs_> which is, i think, rather funny
[11:23] <plovs_> i agree with the free software people, but fanatism is always bad, even if you're right
[11:25] <ChrisH> I listened to a discussion in #ubuntu-devel today and it scared me a bit. Sounded like an 'arch sect' for a moment.
[11:26] <sivang> do we have it all loggified ? :)
[11:26] <sivang> bitkeeper is not open source?
[11:27] <plovs_> sivang, very much not
[11:27] <ChrisH> It's free. But not open source.
[11:30] <sivang> and linus has no problem with it?
[11:30] <sivang> strange..
[11:34] <ChrisH> Why should he? As long as it's not eating the code... :)
[11:34] <sivang> maybe we should wait for HURD to become production quality...but then again we're back to the arch issue
[11:34] <ChrisH> I can only hope that Ubuntu will continue to not breed evangelists. Let's allow arch, cvs, subversion and even notepad.exe if people like. Even if Mark loves Python let's have Tcl, Perl and PHP around.
[11:34] <sivang> to be quoted on the next CC meeting...
[11:34] <sivang> :)
[11:34] <plovs_> sivang, Linus is a funny guy, he wouldn't fit very well into debian(-legal)
[11:34] <sivang> as long as he give the kernel source for free..
[11:34] <sivang> and have it GPLd
[11:34] <sivang> ..
[11:34] <plovs_> as he said once, he uses the best tool for the job
[11:34] <ChrisH> Everbody is talking about freedom of choice but there can only be one... :)
[11:36] <sivang> yes I recall that.
[11:36] <plovs_> ChrisH, did you notice, somebody asked today for 500 lines in the log, would that be hard to add?
[11:37] <ChrisH> plovs_: Not at all hard.
[11:37] <ChrisH> plovs_: done
[11:39] <plovs_> ok, i do not remeber who, but he'll be happy
[11:43] <ChrisH> I'll charge him later. :)
[11:45] <ChrisH> Okay... time to nap again. plovs_, I'll check in a few changes to the "general" section which I intend to get done tomorrow.
[11:45] <ChrisH> plovs_: did you read my suggestions a couple of lines above?
[11:46] <plovs_> ok, i'm off as well
[11:46] <plovs_> which ones, i'm half asleep
[11:46] <ChrisH> plovs_: please check the logs tomorrow :)
[11:47] <plovs_> ok, see ya!
[11:47] <plovs_> goodnight sivang!
[11:47] <sivang> night!
[11:47] <sivang> sleep tight
[11:48] <ChrisH> renite