[12:09] night guys [12:11] night sabdfl === Astharot [isager@host103-160.pool8254.interbusiness.it] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"] [12:16] jdub : are we using scrollkeepr for yelp in hoary? any plans to use gnome-doc-utils ? [12:16] sivang: gnome-doc-utils doesn't replace scrollkeeper [12:19] jdub: can we either get rid of scrollkeeper or get it to run faster? it's _dog_ slow. [12:19] Mithrandir: everyone wants to get rid of it :) [12:19] Mithrandir: it'll happen at some stage [12:20] jdub: well, we're at the front and doing crazy things, so I think we should do it. :) [12:20] heh [12:20] it's not on our feature goal list :) [12:20] that's easily fixed ;) [12:21] i already proposed it in the wiki, but just in case: http://linux.thestreet.dk/ [12:21] debinstaller written in python [12:22] i didn't fully test it but i think ubuntu needs sth. like that [12:23] why? [12:24] oh, debinstaller, should be a synaptic module, I think. [12:24] because all basic tasks should be available in a simple straight-forward gui [12:25] you shouldn't go around downloading random .debs, though. [12:26] yeah it doesn't have to be this specific implementation but their should be sth that pops up when clicking on and .deb saying what you can/should .. do/not do [12:26] a synaptic module would be better, i agree with that [12:28] hm so you don't think one should install a .deb outside apt/synaptic at all [12:28] speaking for the average user [12:28] I'm not sure we want people to do that, no. [12:28] (I'm talking about what I think, this isn't the views of canonical or anything, though I'm a developer) === wasabi [~wasabi@c-67-162-246-175.client.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:30] mh ok [12:30] just my proposal [12:31] jdub : doc team is interested in bringing some worked docs to be available under yelp for hoary, scrollkeeper is our freind ? :) [12:36] sivang: see how the gnome documents are structured, ie. omf files, build layout, etc. [12:36] sivang: i imagine you guys are working on the gnome-user-guide a bit? === RubenV [~lambda1@kn-upc-1.kuleuven.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:40] jdub : that document yes, and I would also like to have docs that we agree on, to be available under yelp. the FAQ is already being done in DocBook.. [12:49] jdub : this is already material which is adopted from the main documentation section on the website, and wiki. === robertj [~robertj@66-188-77-153.cpe.ga.charter.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:53] good night everybody [12:56] elmo: around? [12:59] d'oh [12:59] there is TOTAL RADNESS stuck in NEW [12:59] ;) [01:01] jdub: what in particular? [01:01] jdub: inotify? :-) [01:01] gnome-app-install [01:01] heh, i'm totally not going to be uploading kernels, dude ;) === ggi [~ggi@ggi.base.supporter.pdpc] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:04] jdub: but if we are at it, now that gamin is in hoary, it still uses dnotify, right? [01:04] jdub: or do we already have a patched kernel for inotify? [01:05] still uses dnotify [01:05] inotify is on the list for hoary kernels [01:05] the only update so far has been a bugfix [01:06] so [01:06] http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~jdub/gnome-app-install_0+20041111-1ubuntu1_all.deb [01:06] Keybuk: ^ [01:06] where is ubuntu NEW at? [01:06] well that works. [01:07] good night, guys! [01:07] night pitti [01:07] oh that's slick. === haggai [~halls@i-83-67-20-196.freedom2surf.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:08] jdub: fonts are a little *HUGE* ? :p [01:08] That's a neat idea [01:08] they ought to be big, but not stupidly so [01:09] heh [01:09] if you think they're buggily big, sshot it for me :) [01:09] I guess it uses it's own package list? [01:09] wasabi: see /usr/share/gnome-app-install/ [01:09] Since I don't see any X-Ubuntu-Package: in the .desktop files. ;0 [01:09] oh. [01:09] those .desktop files will be generated/pulled from the real ones later [01:09] There they are. [01:09] http://descent.netsplit.com/~scott/big-fonts.png [01:09] for now, it's just some exampls [01:10] Yeah. That's about the coolest thing I've seen in awhile. [01:10] Keybuk: you reckon they're buggily big? [01:10] Cool because it's usable by my mom. [01:10] jdub: yeah [01:10] Keybuk: the other option is bold, slightly larger, and an explanation of the category [01:10] but categories are stupid to explain [01:11] looks silly compared to the little fonts when you open the category [01:11] oh, they're big to make the icons big? :p [01:11] ok, i will wait for more feedback on that one ;) [01:11] The grafical user interface (xlib) does not support your chosen language environment [01:11] Makes me wonder what kind of server stuff Ubuntu is going to go for. [01:11] heh *boom* [01:11] wasabi: "server stuff" ? [01:11] Keybuk: isn't that bong... so annoying [01:11] Weither you'll be able to add/remove appache from that proggram... like you can do in OS X Server and Windows. [01:11] FOr instance. [01:12] (since all those servers are gui managed) [01:12] wasabi: there will be some stuff like that [01:12] wasabi: for instance, "LAMP Web Development" [01:13] etc. [01:13] there will also be developer-oriented selections [01:13] http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DomainAuthenticationUtility/view?searchterm=authentication [01:14] Someday i'll figure out how to format that right. [01:14] wasabi: seen the libuser proposal on u-d? [01:15] haven't signed up yet [01:15] jdub: has anybody ITP-ed libuser? [01:15] searching [01:15] wasabi: i'm actively thinking about these problems - glad you are too :) [01:15] Mithrandir: no, but considering it. [01:15] jdub, centralized auth systems are my speciality right now. :0 [01:15] jdub: me too.. basically hanging on available time. [01:15] I'm tired of editing pam and nss. [01:15] and creating kerberos keys. *scream* [01:16] Mithrandir: do you think it would be acceptable in debian by default? [01:16] jdub: not for sarge, possibly for etch. [01:16] Mithrandir: (i think you'd be more up to maintaining it than i, btw) [01:16] jdub, what month was it in? [01:16] Mithrandir: (although i could do the legwork, and you could send patches :) [01:16] jdub: what's the upstream URL? I only have your repo for it. [01:16] wasabi: last, maybe? [01:16] hmm. no search on the archives. [01:16] Mithrandir: in src.rpms... [01:16] ew. [01:17] :-) [01:17] with new rpm being non-free and all.. phun! [01:17] (it uses some non-free lib, iirc? [01:17] http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2004-November/000906.html [01:17] That one? [01:17] Mithrandir: the lib might be free [01:17] Oh Rock. [01:17] nobody Debianish really bothered to check that thoroughly [01:17] wasabi: yeah, message above [01:18] Yeah that's exactly what im thinking about. [01:18] Keybuk: ok, I just remember that joeyh orphaned rpm because of it. [01:18] that wiki thing has a walk through explaining what I think of hte process. [01:18] no UI mockups... those will come later. [01:19] wasabi: mmm, i think the infrastructure is more important for the moment anyway [01:19] The infrastructure is already done really. [01:19] Mithrandir: want to co-maintain libuser? [01:19] It's just a matter of glueing it all together. [01:19] wasabi: we talked about this -> "it's the integration, stupid" :-) [01:19] jdub: sure; you ITP it or I? [01:19] Yeah. [01:19] Mithrandir: i can [01:19] jdub: go ahead, then. [01:20] THat's what I mean jdub. We have to combine all these disparet services: Kerberos, LDAP, DNS, NSS, PAM, together into one entity. GIve it one name. [01:21] And then it needs to work, with no fuss. [01:22] where in the stack does libuser really fit in? [01:22] Might be interested in the Lorikeet project. [01:23] It's an effort by a number of the Samba guys to integrate all those things into one package. [01:23] Clean them all up so they work perfectly together: openldap, heimdal, samba. [01:23] wasabi: oh? [01:23] which samba guys? [01:23] abartlet told me about it [01:23] think vorlon is working on it too, not sure. [01:24] http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:bCG0alB-rPkJ:www.openldap.org/conf/odd-sandiego-2004/Andrew.pdf+lorikeet+samba&hl=en [01:24] oh [01:24] hrm, i think i've read this [01:25] It's less a single project and more an effort to smooth all the bumbs from all the respective services so they integrate seamlessly [01:25] They've altered Heimdal to store keys in LDAP, for instance. [01:25] jdub: drop me an URL when you have an arch archive with libuser up and I'll tag off you? [01:25] mmm, and now there's the password sync module in openldap, which makes life easier [01:25] Mithrandir: heh, ok [01:26] Well the end mission is to have no passwords in LDAP, to have one source: kerberos. [01:26] but yeah, the password sync module is a good start. ;0 [01:28] So, my client gui idea is geared towards being dirt simple: in the best case it would only ask you for a user name and password. [01:33] jdub : so is user-conf from the gst backend going to be dropped altogether in favor of libuser and fedora's userconfig ? [01:34] jdub : sorry, this includes the gui also ofcourse. [01:37] hmm. does libuser have any docs yet? [01:38] wasabi: there's a docs/ directory in the tarball, at least. [01:38] : tfheen@yiwaz ../libuser-0.52.5/docs/sgml > ls -l libuser.sgml [01:38] -rw-r--r-- 1 tfheen tfheen 8629 2004-09-28 22:48 libuser.sgml [01:38] a little bit about motivation and so on. [01:40] jdub : I have started some work with garanacho about adding the default privilieges groups , so it might be of interest to me :) [01:43] sivang: no decision so far [01:46] mdz: aorund? [01:47] wasabi: Whoever did OS X's directory stuff knew their stuff [01:47] robertj, amen. [01:47] Except for the quota business [01:47] robertj, have you used it? [01:47] Even their ACL system (NT based) is awesome. [01:47] Im an admin at a mostly mac school [01:47] So very well thought out. [01:47] (in tiger) [01:48] wasabi: haven't looked at it [01:48] Beats the pants off of POSIX ACLs and then some. [01:48] I installed tiger, checked to see if webdav workers with Nove's NetStorage yet (no), checked whether to see secure dav worked (no), and that was it. [01:48] Really though, their directory stuff is just a combination of LDAP and Kerberos, hooked together with a great UI. [01:48] Just like Windows. [01:48] wasabi: yeah. Made me very happy [01:48] I think they're even using OPenLDAP as a base aren't they? I don't know that. [01:49] They do use OpenLDAP with a custom schema [01:49] Yeah. [01:49] it would be nice if we had something like netinfo [01:49] netinfo is deprecated no? [01:49] jdub: netinfo is eeeeevil [01:49] netinfo is just a directory service plugin now [01:49] and it is evil [01:49] Yeah. Replaced with OpenDirectory [01:49] netinfo is just a front end API now. [01:49] how do they do disconnected clients? ldap proxy? [01:49] That's how I read it anyways. ;) [01:49] jdub: they dont [01:50] OlD is just a frontend as well [01:50] jdub, probably don't. MS doesn't. [01:50] ANd MS has never needed to. [01:50] But, it would be neat. ;) [01:50] erm [01:50] you *can* do disconnected clients with windows [01:50] Openldap, dotfiles nad netinfo all plug into the directory services architecture to actually do auth [01:50] no domain clients. [01:50] You mean disconnected file shares. [01:50] jdub: I think we need something like planet, but for calendars. Preferably with two-way synchronization. [01:50] no, authentication [01:50] jdub: that [01:50] er that's just cacheing [01:51] Mithrandir: yes, have been looking at it, oddly enough :) [01:51] robertj: exactly [01:51] pull your hard drive and put it in another machine and have it auth the machine account [01:51] i was under the impression that netinfo did it [01:51] That will be offline directory services ;) [01:51] jdub: I never saw netinfo used as anything but a dotfile replacement [01:51] jdub: gotten anywhere yet? I've just thought about it for a week or so, after I saw schoolbell hit unstable. [01:51] it's badly documented, poorly understood, and has a bad rep [01:52] Mithrandir: turns out the schooltool guys have written a fairly nice ical lib, which they're considering separating out [01:52] The good news so far is that it looks like we can get away with including suspend to disk in hoary without any trouble [01:52] jdub: ooh, that'd be great. [01:52] robertj: you could flick a switch to make it auth against other services [01:52] mjg59: yay! [01:52] mjg59: yay! [01:52] jdub: on 10.2? [01:52] robertj: believe so === Mithrandir chalks down a few beers for mjg59 [01:52] mjg59: coming to BCN? [01:52] I dont think it had any gui utils for doing such [01:52] Mithrandir: Doubt it - too much work to do [01:52] the server did [01:52] mjg59: shame :/ [01:52] on Mac you take your life into yoru own hands when you stray from the gui [01:52] Mithrandir: I'll be in Australia, with luc [01:53] mjg59: oh, when to when? [01:53] not doing stuff through the gui causes things to get ugly [01:53] mjg59: oh well, I guess that'll be fun. :) [01:53] jdub: Oh, next year :) [01:53] oh [01:53] mjg59: for lca? [01:53] Yeah [01:53] tops [01:53] we'll all be there [01:53] Still waiting to hear back about papers [01:53] mjg59: which reminds me; are you planning to sign up to join the Ubuntu maintainer list? [01:53] Kamion: Hrngh. [01:54] haha [01:54] Kamion: That implies a level of committment I can't current offer :) [01:54] Kamion: tbm will take away his hair. [01:54] ah well, worth a try :) [01:54] Kamion: For the moment I'd rather try to coordinate some stuff and make patches someone else's problem [01:54] like the thing that is currently souring my day is how quotas mysteriously dissapear and quotacheck crashes [01:54] jdub: to replenish his own diminishing supply? [01:55] we have no need for anything netinfo like [01:55] since we have NSS [01:55] Uh [01:55] Dudes [01:55] Why is acpid suddenly packaged as a native package? [01:55] jdub: Oh, and why does polypaudio-x11 have no binaries in it? [01:56] mjg59: on? [01:56] OS X's flexible directory architecture is completely defeated by our EITS here [01:56] they run eDirectory, which is fine, except they _will_not_ add numeric uids [01:57] robertj : EITS ?(this one I am not familiar with) [01:57] jdub: Hoary [01:57] enterprise information technology services [01:57] i386 [01:58] doubt it has anything to do with the xorg upload [01:58] but might [01:58] i'll see, needs some love anyway [01:58] is polypaudio in universe or something? I don't see it on my mirror? [01:58] Haha [01:58] Kamion: universe [01:58] Kamion: yeah [01:58] bleh [01:58] Kamion: not committing to it yet :) [01:58] jdub: It desperately needs an esd-style Let go of the sound device after this much inactivity option [01:59] It's got an option to spawn on demand, but that only works for polypaudio clients, not legacy esd ones [01:59] http://primates.ximian.com/~jimmac/blog/Artwork/Eeek-a-gaim [01:59] ha ha ha ha ha [02:05] Suspend to RAM still looks a bit dodgy [02:05] Which is a pain [02:06] how can we make booting with suspend-to-disk 'just work'? [02:08] Add a kernel that supports it. Add resume= to the default kernel options. Add support scripts. [02:08] Done. [02:09] We probably need a few patches for some bits of hardware, but that's something that'll come up in testing [02:11] resume is fairly safe? :) === jdub got the impression it wasn't [02:12] but i guess you can mkswap early on in boot [02:12] and stuff [02:13] The resume process redoes the swap signature even if resume fails [02:13] The only issue is if someone boots with noresume [02:13] ah, right [02:14] Which is DANGEROUS and BAD and they SOULDN'T BE DOING IT [02:14] (ahem) [02:14] But yeah, it works with the craptop [02:14] So it ought to work anywhere [02:15] (Now that I've fixed the couple of obvious bugs) [02:15] I must try it with the craptop's older brother [02:16] http://store.myaopen.com/proso2000.html - coooooooooooooooool [02:16] Kamion: Which one is that? Your old Sony? [02:17] "default kernel options" is a bit of an interesting concept BTW; we can change {grub,lilo,yaboot}-installer, but how does it work on upgrades? [02:17] no, another Averatec box but rather more powerful [02:18] coooooooooooooooool> I think you misspelled "freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeak" [02:18] Kamion: Oh, I know the one [02:18] This isn't an averatec - it's even cheaper [02:18] oh, so it is [02:18] right, I meant "another Via box" I think [02:19] Heh [02:19] Kamion: Re: upgrades - in theory, grub can add it itself in the postinst [02:20] On the other hand, you probably don't want to do that in general [02:20] yeah, semantics get a bit hairy though 'cos you're fiddling with a config file [02:20] There's no real way we can autodetect which partition to resume off [02:20] Swap hasn't been mounted at that point [02:21] I guess it /could/ do something like RAID autostart and look for anything with the right header, but that's going to be pain [02:21] mjg59: i *almost* got my hands on a voyager. [02:22] Ooh [02:22] but i stupidly installed linux on it, and the customer wanted to keep it [02:22] *d'oh* [02:22] fucking sweet machine,though [02:24] is disk manager an ubuntu specific tool>? [02:24] no, it's a gnome-system-tool [02:24] ahh [02:25] It would be really great if the hal device manager ganked those tabs [02:26] hal device manager is really just a hal inspector [02:26] we shouldn't have put it in the menu :) [02:27] But seriously, guys - we need more x86 laptop testing before I try to get this stuff pushed into Hoary [02:27] (my fault) [02:27] mjg59: dude, hoary is the devel branch for testing! [02:27] yeah, I used to thhink that kind of thing was needed, but I believe it's really kinda useless [02:27] jdub: Yeah, but I'm not going to convince Herbert to do anything with this stuff unless I've seen it work on a decent number of machines [02:28] heh [02:28] And you need someone to do you production-ready 2.6.9 images, because 2.6.8.1 isn't going to be good enough [02:28] And I am *not* going to sort that shit out on PPC and amd64 [02:28] Herbert's doing that, isn't he? [02:28] is he still on contract? [02:29] he is [02:29] Kamion: As far as I know [02:29] dunno if he's doing that htough [02:29] Kamion: My point was more that this stuff isn't going into 2.6.8.1, and I'm not doing you proper 2.6.9 images :) [02:29] indeed [02:29] mjg59: did you dump patches in bugzilla for herbert? [02:29] jdub: I dumped the kernel one, yeah [02:30] jdub: My current patch isn't his ideal solution, though. Someone ought to follow up to the swsusp bug and ask him whether he's happy with that or whether I should forward port his modular swsusp one [02:32] I'm eager to try out Ubuntu on my laptop, but the only cds I have now don't play well with my laptops' drive :( [02:34] okay, how do you do tables in whatever 'reStructuredText(tm)' is? [02:35] || Would be nice if it just || Worked || [02:38] sladen : hahah [02:39] sladen : was my point on the markup doc discussion..:) [02:39] sladen: http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/user/rst/quickref.html#tables [02:40] www.zwiki.org links to help on editing which links to restructuredtext stuff [02:40] sladen: If you pick moinformat or whatever, the || notation works [02:40] Oh, it's hard for people to do certain types of editting on this wiki [02:40] I know, we'll ADD ANOTHER INCOMPATIBLE FORMAT [02:41] Why are all wikis more crack-addled than Euginia? [02:44] been reading that quicklist, but can't find what [Nice Cleartext link to http://ob.fus.cated.org/] is [02:47] mjg59: T-shirt please. ''I should not have to use Emacs picture-mode to edit you %$#@! wiki tables'' [02:48] sladen: if only there was a markup language with a regular syntax that everyone knew! [02:49] robertj : html ? :) [02:49] I think we should invent a new one [02:49] stop this dudes, you're killing me :) [02:49] I haven't researched any of the existing ones, but I once heard someone say that they were crap [02:50] moinmoin's is nice [02:50] moinmoin is nice [02:50] *cough* [02:52] I use Textile on my blog, it's quite nice ... [02:52] Mithrandir uses a Wiki-like syntax on his I think [02:52] moinmoin is nice :) [02:52] there needs to be some way to cooerce people into reporting comptability results ;) [02:52] my complaint about WikiSyntax is it's '''bold''' not just *bold* [02:52] /italic/ _underline_ etc. [02:53] My problem with WikiSyntax is that if you try to use English it tries to interpret it as something closer to txt [02:53] Ah! Capital letters! MINE MINE MINE [02:53] OhYeahAndTheLinkFormatSucks [02:55] Ther really needs to be a way to convert between wiki and prolog [02:55] There really needs to be a way to convert between wiki and MY ARSE. [02:55] LetsDropThoseRadioButtonForOtherFormatsThanMoinMoin [02:56] OOH! RADIOBUTTONS! [02:56] MORE CRACK YES PLEASE YUM YUM YUM [02:58] AndAlwaysUseTheSimpleWikiSkin [02:58] AlwaysAlwaysAlways [02:59] I hate wikis [02:59] I love the concept [02:59] I dislike the execution [03:00] hopefully there will be some yummy firefox plugins [03:00] they're documented on the MakeWikisNotSuck page, iirc [03:01] We're going to make wikis not suck by fixing them in firefox? [03:02] is the wiki a zwiki? [03:04] Yes [03:09] jdub: here now for a bit [03:09] mdz: mailed you [03:09] jdub: UML? [03:09] yeah [03:20] aww DTML is disabled [03:20] in our zwiki? [03:20] I think so [03:21] yeah, we need more markup formats [03:21]

didn't evaluate in a reStructuredText format [03:22] christing fuck, tla is slow === sivang is now known as sivang_ZZzzZzzZz === sivang_ZZzzZzzZz is now known as sivang_sleep [03:25] mdz: thanks for reply - great :) [03:25] Keybuk: you sure you're not just asking it to do a metric boatload of stuff? [03:25] Keybuk: not using baz yet? [03:25] this wiki discussion is all too fun, however night everybody! [03:25] $ cat ~/bin/tla [03:25] #!/bin/sh [03:25] figlet -f small "USE BAZ, DICKHEAD" [03:25] [03:25] hahahaha [03:25] lamont_r: oh, I *am* making it do lots ... deliberately :p [03:26] hehe === jamesh [~james@203-59-50-191.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:43]