[12:00] <sivang> Kamion : tested it a bit, the installer enters an endless loop - never snaps out , after it sasying it enters lowmem mode i.e. loading the lowmem packages.
[12:00] <mdz> Kamion: it's only the installer and main packages files which are used during the first stage anyway, right?
[12:00] <Mithrandir> does qemu support serial interfaces?
[12:00] <Kamion> mdz: hm, except that bunzip2 probably isn't installed at that point
[12:01] <Kamion> Mithrandir: if you've got that sort of setup you wouldn't bother with emulation
[12:01] <Kamion> mdz: and restricted
[12:01] <mdz> the uncompressed hoary/main packages file is only ~2M
[12:01] <Mithrandir> Kamion: saves a box, though.
[12:01] <Kamion> mdz: remember we're already winning over Debian mind
[12:01] <Kamion> smaller Packages files
[12:01] <mdz> Kamion: right, and main and restricted are decompressed separately
[12:23] <Kamion> mdz: what did you think about my three Ship proposals for installer language support?
[12:23] <Kamion> jfbterm, unifont, console-terminus
[12:29] <robertj> Kamion: I was wondering the other day, can you think of a good reason hostname shouldn't be autoset?
[12:31] <mdz> Kamion: did I miss your proposal?  I lost some mail a few days ago
[12:31] <mdz> robertj: yes...autoset to what?
[12:32] <robertj> a random string?
[12:32] <robertj> the ubuntu-macaddress
[12:33] <robertj> would that cause the world to come to an end?
[12:33] <infinity> No, but it's pretty irritating behaviour.
[12:34] <infinity> I cursed Microsoft when they started doing that in their installers.
[12:34] <robertj> infinity: why?
[12:34] <infinity> "jkfdW2kk, now that's an intuitive hostname!"
[12:35] <infinity> "bobsmith1" might be nicer (based on username, or some other string entered in the installer) than the random gobleygoop.
[12:36] <chrisa> Or use dict -m on something from urandom
[12:36] <chrisa> That's fun too
[12:36] <sivang> chrisa : yes :)
[12:36] <robertj> but why do you need the hostname anyway? Chances are if they are going to register it with a dhcp server they will change the host nam
[12:37] <robertj> most desktop users won't be running any services
[12:37] <infinity> It's traditional for UNIX hosts to have a sane name, though.
[12:37] <infinity> And for people to have prompts like user@name:~$
[12:37] <infinity> s/name/host/
[12:38] <chrisa> There's something endearing about user@jkfdW2kk:~$
[12:38] <robertj> infinity: anyone at the prompt can figure out how to change their hostname then
[12:38] <infinity> I suppose.  <shrug>... I'm not terribly emotional about it.
[12:39] <infinity> As long as I always have the option to run my installers in ultra-verbose, ask-me-everything mode, I don't know that I personally care.
[12:39] <infinity> I still prefer the idea of basing the name on the "create a normal user" username, though.
[12:39] <infinity> So, you'd get dave@dave01:~$
[12:39] <infinity> Or whatever.
[12:40] <chrisa> That'll make the paranoid ex-ms droids happy
[12:40] <infinity> (Of course, that's horribly out of order, as far as the installer is concerned)
[12:40] <chrisa> "declined@declined: ~$"
[12:40] <Kamion> mdz: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2004-November/001308.html (and subthread)
[12:40] <Kamion> mdz: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2004-November/001309.html
[12:41] <Kamion> robertj: there's an RFC about recommended practices for host naming ...
[12:41] <Kamion> robertj: we attempt to set the hostname from DHCP or DNS, but if that's not possible I think getting a name from the user is appropriate
[12:42] <robertj> Kamion: it's really irritating though. Home users don't know what a host name is (better docs could help with that) and business users likely don't know where a given machine will end up
[12:42] <Kamion> I dunno, IME arguments that start "most desktop users" tend to fall flat ... we had a number of experiences like that pre-Warty :)
[12:43] <mdz> Kamion: yeah, that was during my black{out,hole} period
[12:43] <Kamion> mdz: thought it might've been
[12:43] <robertj> what does IME stand for?
[12:43] <infinity> In My Experience.
[12:43] <elmo> in my experience
[12:44] <robertj> Kamio: ahh
[12:44] <robertj> is this what you were thinking of? http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2100.html
[12:44] <Kamion> we did talk about it before Warty - one of the reasons we left it as it is, actually, is that changing the hostname after installation is such a royal pain
[12:44] <Kamion> the hostname has a bad habit of getting hardcoded into configuration files all over the place, rightly or wrongly
[12:45] <mdz> kamion: is http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=99339 a concern for us?
[12:45] <Kamion> robertj: I think there's a rather more serious one somewhere
[12:45] <Kamion> sivang: look for "Jabberwocky"
[12:45] <sivang> Kamion : it's by Louis Kroll, right?
[12:45] <mdz> Kamion: how familiar are you with jfbterm?  some of that i18n console stuff is scary (random setuid binaries and such)
[12:46] <Kamion> sivang: parody thereof
[12:46] <sivang> Kamion : ah, k
[12:47] <pitti> Night everybody!
[12:47] <sivang> night pitti
[12:47] <Kamion> mdz: jfbterm seems to work for me on powerpc
[12:48] <robertj> Kamion: if XP gives random host names, then the world probably won't come to an end if Ubuntu does as well.
[12:48] <Kamion> mdz: hm, yeah, it has a setuid root binary, that's annoying
[12:48] <Kamion> robertj: XP does lots of things that we're trying to fix :-)
[12:48] <robertj> Kamion: hostnames dont fix much
[12:48] <Kamion> like I say, we did debate this before Warty
[12:49] <Kamion> jfbterm would need a full audit, it seems
[12:50] <Kamion> it has privilege-dropping code, and drops privileges as the first thing it does; but it's still a world-executable setuid-root program
[12:50] <robertj> It just seems contrary to an otherwise "Just the facts" type of setup
[12:50] <mdz> Kamion: what resources does it hold when it drops privileges?
[12:51] <Kamion> it's the first thing that main() does, so just its starting file descriptors I should think
[12:53] <Kamion> it does tty-switching by ioctl() on /dev/console and /dev/tty*, and a couple of things with /dev/tty* and /dev/fb*
[12:53] <Kamion> some odd ioperm() stuff as well for vga16fb
[12:55] <Kamion> we could defer that for now and just take the font stuff?
[01:06] <mdz> it certainly wouldn't need to be setuid if it dropped privileges as its first operation
[01:06] <mdz> ioperm() requires root, though
[01:06] <mdz> I'll look at it
[01:07] <mdz> Kamion: have you looked at them with an eye to the usual seed requirements?
[01:07] <mdz> (are they maintained, etc.)
[01:07] <mdz> I have no problems with unifont; seems dead simple
[01:07] <mdz> oh, they really are just fonts
[01:08] <Kamion> there's #218720
[01:08] <Kamion> dunno if it matters though
[01:09] <mdz> unifont and console-terminus are both fine with me
[01:09] <Kamion> I can't say I can claim unifont is maintained, but as you say it's just a font
[01:09] <mdz> we'll defer jfbterm for now, as you proposed
[01:09] <Kamion> all right, thanks
[01:10] <mdz> it would be a good idea to send something to the new security-review list about jfbterm
[01:10] <Kamion> jfbterm may be less of a concern now that we're doing UTF-8 throughout
[01:11] <Kamion> I don't yet have a good feel for how good the Linux console's support for UTF-8 actually is in practice
[01:14] <sivang> Kamion : for my belingual needs, it's pretty fine, although console RTL input can be sometimes tricky.
[01:17] <tseng> has anyone tested ubuntu on intel emt64 chips?
[01:18] <tseng> i understand that its basically an amd compatible x86_64, but not quite.
[01:19] <elmo> I think it is enough that ubuntu should work
[01:19] <elmo> we provide a kernel for it and there's no userspace incompatabilities
[01:20] <elmo> but no, I don't know of anyone who's tested it
[01:21] <tseng> danke
[01:25] <mdz> mjg59: around?
[01:29] <Kamion> I believe the amd64-generic kernel should work too (just as well, since that's all that's on the CD)
[01:30] <elmo> right, sorry I more meant that our kernel was aware of EM64T
[01:30] <elmo> as in, at the source level
[01:30] <Kamion> ah, right
[01:42] <mjg59> mdz: Pong?
[01:52] <mdz> mjg59: how do the reports from your kernel look?  what changes do you have that we'll need to merge into the default kernel?
[01:57] <mjg59> mdz: For the most part, pretty good
[01:57] <mjg59> mdz: Suspend to disk is still failing for some people for reasons I haven't tracked down
[01:57] <mjg59> But other than that, the success rate for suspend to disk is almost perfect, and suspend to RAM is working better than I expected
[01:57] <Kamion> guess that's time to hit the sack; night all
[01:58] <mdz> mjg59: which swsusp are you using?
[01:58] <mdz> Kamion: night
[01:58] <mjg59> mdz: Kernel stock
[01:58] <mdz> mjg59: I thought that one didn't work with modular storage device drivers
[01:58] <mjg59> mdz: I added some fairly trivial code so that echo -n resume >/sys/power/state triggers another resume
[01:58] <mjg59> And then added code to do that at the end of the initrd
[01:59] <mdz> ah, I see
[01:59] <mdz> so we just need 2.6.9
[01:59] <mjg59> 2.6.10 would probably be better, but yeah
[01:59] <mjg59> I've got a patch tree here, so I can show you what I added to the tree fairly easily
[02:01] <mjg59> Mm. Yeah. 4 patches - at least one is in current Linus tree, one is the dodgy dsdt-initrd hack, one is theoretically needed but I haven't found a case that doesn't work without it and one is the swsusp stuff
[02:04] <mdz> how does Linus feel about the dsdt-initrd thing?
[02:05] <mjg59> I doubt he's keen. The linux-acpi people certainly aren't.
[02:06] <lifeless> mjg59: does your stuff work for all laptops, or just one model ? And if just one model, how do I convince you to teach me how to fix my laptop(s) ?
[02:06] <mjg59> On the other hand, jdub needs it in order to get battery information
[02:06] <mjg59> lifeless: In theory, all
[02:06] <mjg59> What's the problem?
[02:07] <lifeless> my hoverbook - you remember it right? - will go into battery sleep mode, but nothing brings it alive except for holding the powe down for 5-7 seconds.
[02:07] <lifeless> and every time I've tried suspend to disk, it loops and never gets into sleep.
[02:07] <lifeless> I'd /kill/ for battery sleep mode to work well.
[02:07] <daniels> lifeless: you don't have to kill!
[02:07] <lifeless> daniels: do too.
[02:07] <mjg59> lifeless: Ok, we have the first issue on multiple machines.
[02:08] <daniels> lifeless: an X40 is only a few clicks away
[02:08] <lifeless> daniels: you offering me yours ?
[02:08] <daniels> no
[02:08] <daniels> but surely it's easier than murder
[02:08] <lifeless> well, then, TEASE.
[02:08] <lifeless> you are a sleep teaser
[02:08] <mjg59> lifeless: I suspect the complete failure to wake is the same as the NC4010's failure to wake and the craptop's spontaneous reboot
[02:08] <lifeless> craptop ?
[02:08] <mjg59> lifeless: On the other hand, it's also worth checking /proc/acpi/wakeup
[02:08] <mjg59> The VIA piece of shit we had in Oxford
[02:09] <daniels> lifeless: via aberration
[02:09] <lifeless> cat /proc/acpi/wakeup 
[02:09] <lifeless> Device  Sleep state     Status
[02:09] <lifeless>  LID       3            *enabled
[02:09] <lifeless> SLPB       3            *enabled
[02:09] <lifeless> PWRB       5            *enabled
[02:09] <lifeless> CRD0       3            disabled
[02:09] <lifeless> LANC       3            disabled
[02:09] <mjg59> Heh. Ok, that's not it.
[02:09] <lifeless> AC97       3            disabled
[02:09] <lifeless> thats what it claims :0.
[02:09] <mjg59> Yeah, probably the same problem, then. The Intel guys know about it, I'm trying to track it down.
[02:09] <mjg59> Suspend to disk is more interesting
[02:10] <lifeless> can I help other than by throwing peanuts and shouting encouragement.
[02:10] <mjg59> lifeless: Oh, if you could check suspend to RAM after init=/bin/bash, that would be good
[02:10] <mjg59> Just mount proc and echo -n 3 >/proc/acpi/sleep
[02:10] <mjg59> I'd expect it to fail in the same way, but it'd be nice to confirm it
[02:10] <mjg59> Suspend to disk shouldn't fail in the way it's failing, as far as I can tell
[02:10] <mjg59> But it seems unwilling to give large amounts of debug information
[02:11] <mjg59> So I'll probably need to throw a pile of printks in a kernel and get you to test it
[02:11] <lifeless> ok, I'll do so later - I'm high latency on debugging these things, generally each reboot. (Too busy working to fiddle much ...)
[02:11] <mjg59> Once we've got this solved, it ought to work anyway
[02:11] <mjg59> s/anyway/anywhere/
[02:11] <lifeless> I'm happy to run a custom kernel for you.
[02:11] <mjg59> Cool
[02:11] <lifeless> Do I need to start with a special kernel? Currently I've just warty's P4 kernel.
[02:11] <mjg59> Oh
[02:11] <mjg59> Were you testing my stuff with my kernel?
[02:13] <jdub> ahr.
[02:13] <mjg59> Suspend to disk won't work without my kernel and my initrd
[02:13] <mjg59> Uh, initrd-tools
[02:17] <lifeless> apt-line ?
[02:17] <mjg59> http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~mjg59/laptops/ ./
[02:17] <mjg59> You need the initrd-tools *first*
[02:18] <lifeless> heh, or it'll fail to install the kernel :|
[02:18] <jdub> mjg59: yay, aptable
[02:19] <daniels> jdub: morning
[02:19] <jdub> yo yo
[02:19] <mjg59> jdub: Dude, it has been for ages
[02:20] <jdub> ooh, qemu update works
[02:21] <lamont_r> hrmpf.  usb camera plugged in, shows up in lsusb, why did nothing automount?  and how do I cause it to mount?
[02:21] <lifeless> lamont_r: did usbstorage find it ?
[02:21] <lamont_r> usb 1-2: new full speed USB device using address 3
[02:22] <lamont_r> Nov 15 18:13:42 localhost usb.agent[3081] :      libgphoto2: loaded successfully
[02:22] <mjg59> Looks like the mass storage driver didn't bind to it
[02:22] <lamont_r> now I really wonder...
[02:22] <lifeless> that sounds like a no. So, its not a mountable device.
[02:22] <lamont_r> which would mean?
[02:22] <lamont_r> oh.
[02:22] <lifeless> thus the lack of automount love :).
[02:22] <mjg59> lamont_r: It's not a mass storage device, so it needs an application that knows how to speak to it
[02:22] <mjg59> gphoto ought to manage
[02:22] <lifeless> you need to use gphoto to pull stuff off it
[02:23] <lamont_r> gphoto invocation?
[02:23] <lifeless> mjg59: do I need to reboot post initrd-tools install before kernel install ? I presume not ... but checking is good.
[02:24] <mjg59> lifeless: Nope
[02:24] <lifeless> mjg59: whats the kernel image I should look for ?
[02:24] <mjg59> linux-image-2.6.9-something-386
[02:24] <jdub> mako: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/i18n/iiimf-faq.html
[02:25] <lifeless> mjg59: you could probably use a pre-depends to force the initrd ordering.
[02:25] <lifeless> 2.6.9-1-386 coming in.
[02:26] <mjg59> lifeless: Yeah, but that'd require me rebuilding the damn kernel images again
[02:27] <lifeless> well, /next build/ then :)
[02:27] <lupus_> is there already a guide for qemu?
[02:29] <mako> jdub: Yet Another Input Method To End All Input Methods.. i'm losing track :)
[02:29] <daniels> mako: oh, this week's ultimate input method
[02:30] <mjg59> Just use Dasher
[02:31] <daniels> mjg59: this is cjk
[02:31] <daniels> mjg59: by 'ultimate input method for every language, not just the crap ones from the english fascists' read 'doesn't work for anything other than cjk, will abuse anyone attempting to make it work for non-cjk'
[02:32] <daniels> (including 8859-1)
[02:37] <mako> daniels: i've heard of people using dasher for chinese input
[02:38] <daniels> oh wow
[02:38] <daniels> consider myself corrected
[02:38] <mako> daniels: it must be a little disorienting
[02:38] <daniels> mmm
[02:38] <mako> but yeah
[02:39] <jdub> mako: ii* seems to be the input method du jour
[02:39] <mako> so many IMs are the Smart Common, or Unified, or eXtended, or Smart Extended or Integrated
[02:39] <mako> and the great part is that all now seem to be providing interfaces to EACH OTHER
[02:40] <mako> i'm getting some ideas IM wise for hoary though :)
[02:40] <mako> some pretty non-invasive changes we can make that will do good good things
[02:41] <jdub> rocking
[02:41] <mako> gnome has the infrastructure there already
[02:42] <mako> more than six months ago, i used to do non-latin input in emacs exclusively.. now i will load up gedit even if it's just to paste it elewhere.. things are getting better quickly even if they aren't getting more organized :)
[02:43] <chrisa> mako: I call lies, korean input for instance is still a pita (imo at least)
[02:43] <jdub> the gnome-kr dudes have some cool stuff for that
[02:43] <chrisa> jdub: oh?
[02:44] <jdub> you'll have to find an interdimensional wormhole
[02:45] <mako> chrisa: i'll admit, i haven't tried korean :)
[02:45] <chrisa> brilliant!
[02:45] <mako> there are *two* amharic input methods
[02:46] <mako> well, that's impressive to me :)
[02:46] <chrisa> When I went to try asian input I was overwhelmed by the bazillion IMs and even moreso by the fact that they have interfaces for each other
[02:46] <mako> chrisa: yeah, but it's sort of necessary
[02:46] <mako> for japanese at least, every one of those has a population that love it and won't use anything else :)
[02:47] <mjg59> But we know better
[02:48] <chrisa> It would be infinitely cool if gnome just had an abstraction that could handle korean/whatever
[02:48] <jdub> chrisa: http://gnome.or.kr/wiki/GnomeKoreaProjects
[02:48] <mako> japanese kids may have had nintendo games 6 months before us but they are paying for their high-techedness by having to deal with 4 widely incompatible encoding schemes and supporting a dozen input methods :)
[02:48] <mako> chrisa: everyone agrees on that one
[02:49] <mako> chrisa: every one also agrees that their system is the correct umbrella under which to unify
[02:49] <chrisa> jdub: thanks for the link
[02:49] <lamont_r> what does 302 mean from apache?
[02:49] <daniels> heh
[02:50] <daniels> jdub: now all you need is for someone to adopt it
[02:50] <daniels> jdub: they can be the gdickfoster
[02:50] <lifeless> redirect
[02:50] <lamont_r> yeah - figured that out... grumble
[02:51] <mako> lamont_r: glad to hear the cds went over well :)
[02:51] <lamont_r> mako: yeah - went over pretty well
[02:52] <lamont_r> bdale took some back to colorado with him, will be handing one to each of Martin Fink's staff on tuesday
[02:52] <mako> lamont_r: nobody riled by the "peanut smuggling"? :)
[02:53] <mako> wednesday i should be able to drop off a whole bunch at the NYLUG meeting
[02:53] <lamont_r> peanut smuggling???
[02:53] <mako> lamont_r: it was a comment kinnison made
[02:53] <mako> jdub: you don't have them already?
[02:53] <jdub> no
[02:54] <jdub> i ordered about 200 for slug with my address
[02:54] <lamont_r> mako: didn't see kinnison's comment
[02:54] <mako> lamont_r: i'm assuming it a was reference to nipples :)
[02:54] <lamont_r> ah
[02:54] <lamont_r> no complaints from that crowd at all.
[02:55] <sivang> mako : peanut smuggling ? :) 
[02:55] <mako> evidently, it's a pretty common term
[02:55] <mako> (among some circles)
[02:55] <lamont_r> right
[02:55] <lifeless> nuts ?
[02:55] <lamont_r> well..  gotta go take a break from typing for a bit... bbl.
[02:55] <mako> jdub: so it looks like i will be making it down this conference in veracruz to talk up ubuntu
[02:56] <jdub> mako: oooh, nice!
[02:56] <mako> jdub: there's a day devoted to nothing but randall schwartz, maddog, rms, and me talking about ubuntu
[02:56] <mako> !!
[02:57] <mjg59> mako: You're an open source celebrity
[02:57] <mjg59> Make sure you tell rms that
[02:57] <jdub> i hope the "me talking about ubuntu" is in virtual parentheses :)
[02:57] <mako> jdub: seriously, a clerical error
[02:57] <mako> jdub: equal billing even
[02:58] <jdub> rawk!
[02:58] <mjg59> Heh
[02:58] <jdub> dude, how many cds do you have? :)
[02:58] <mako> jdub: ~400
[02:58] <mako> it won't last
[02:58] <mjg59> You're obviously almost as famous as tbm
[02:58] <mako> mjg59: at LSM 1.5 years ago, someone came up to tbm and i asked for my autograph
[02:59] <mako> mjg59: tbm was like "do you know what he is?", they say 'yes', then "do you know what i am?" :)
[02:59] <mako> mjg59: he was riled
[02:59] <mjg59> Something like that happened as FISL
[02:59] <mako> mjg59: good :)
[03:00] <mjg59> We were having lunch and some leading south american open source guy came up
[03:00] <mjg59> Martin started introducing himself, then he looked at martin's nametag and said that he'd got the wrong person
[03:00] <mjg59> Then started talking to me...
[03:01] <mako> haha
[03:01] <lifeless> heh. you da man.
[03:01] <mako> he really doesn't like that :)
[03:02] <mako> jdub: yeah, i've been talking the gulev organizer about ubuntu back and forth for a couple months now.. it's paid off i guess :)
[03:02] <mako> jdub: of course, the fact that he really likes our work doesn't hurt :)
[03:05] <jdub> the only thing that really shits me about reading CJK screenshots and pages is that ASSTASTICALLY ugly serif they're used to, it drives me up the wall
[03:08] <daf> jdub: you mean latin text on CJK pages having ugly serifs
[03:08] <daf> jdub: ?
[03:08] <jdub> yeah
[03:08] <daf> mmm, that sucks
[03:08] <jdub> there's like this classically CJK ugly ass filler font
[03:08] <daf> you can avoid it, though
[03:09] <daf> it's as simple as using the lang attribute correctly
[03:09] <jdub> heh
[03:09] <daf> seriously
[03:09] <daf> most people just say the whole page is in Japanese, and then you get the ugly filler font
[03:10] <jdub> they just shouldn't put filler characters in
[03:10] <jdub> bastards
[03:10] <jdub> it offends my eyes
[03:10] <jdub> hrm
[03:10] <jdub> fell into mjg59 mode for a minute there
[03:12] <daf> I wonder if everybody in Asia thinks Western Latin fonts are ugly
[03:16] <jdub> "look at those sans serifs! how do they read them? each letter is like a typographical non sequitur! it's criminal!"
[03:17] <daf> I bet that's just how it is
[03:53] <jdub> When doing diversions, does the 'divertor' package have to depend on the 'divertee' package?
[04:58] <fabbione> morning guys
[05:08] <fubarpa> hello :)
[05:08] <mojo_> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=19255#post19255
[05:09] <mojo_> fubara:
[05:09] <mojo_> fubara: what field are u working on?
[05:10] <fubarpa> I'm actually trying to figure out where I'd fit in.  I want to help :)
[05:10] <mojo_> fubara: are u good a C++?
[05:11] <fubarpa> heh, that's one language I'm not well-versed in
[05:12] <mojo_> fubara: we need more testers
[05:12] <mojo_> fubara: please report all bugs related to GNOME to us
[05:12] <fubarpa> Well, I just upgraded to the development version
[05:12] <fubarpa> but, I'm using KDE as my main desktop right now
[05:13] <mojo_> fubara: then it's bit hard, b/c we don't support KDE, we already made up our mind, GNOME is the only desktop on Ubuntu
[05:13] <mojo_> fubara: we don't want to create a distro that mixed up 2 wm
[05:14] <mojo_> fubara: initially, I used KDE but then KDE 's getting heavier and messier, so I use GNOME for its simplicity, slim and pro GUI
[05:15] <daniels> guys. kde vs gnome. offtopic here. somewhere else.
[05:15] <daniels> (please)
[05:15] <fubarpa> no prob.  I can test Gnome out too :)
[05:15] <fubarpa> Not tryin to start a desktop war...  just wanna be helpful :)
[05:15] <mojo_> fubara: cool, 
[05:16] <mojo_> fubara: I think u should play around with GNOME applet, try to test it with all possible cases
[05:16] <mojo_> fubara: and report all the bugs to us, make sure u update to latest GNOME 2.9.1 provided by our respository
[05:18] <fubarpa> I just ran dist-update against hoary repositories...  I should be ok, I think unless it just updated again
[05:20] <mojo_> daniels: are we allowed to include restricted-kernel and nvidia driver along?
[05:41] <fubarpa> any laptop team members around? :)
[06:25] <fabbione> mdz: i wonder how ubuntu-meta will behave on new archs...
[06:25] <fabbione> hey Manoj 
[06:25] <fabbione> Manoj: decided to join the dark side?
[06:26] <Manoj> just checking out the competition
[06:26] <mdz> fabbione: all that is necessary is to update the control file and the 'update' script
[06:26] <mdz> Manoj: that's not a word we like to use, in relation to Debian at least ;-)
[06:27] <fabbione> Manoj: there is no competition
[06:27] <Manoj> heck, we seem to be losing users (as seen on p.d.o) to ubuntu all the time ;-)
[06:28] <fabbione> where do you see it on p.d.o?
[06:30] <Manoj> Tollef Fog Heen today
[06:30] <Manoj> and debianplant had a whole slew
[06:30] <fabbione> you mean planet.d.n ?
[06:30] <Manoj> planet.debian.org
[06:31] <fabbione> p.d.o can also be people.d.o.. you know :P
[06:34] <mdz> or packages
[06:34] <fabbione> or pr0n.debian.org :P
[06:38] <fabbione> hmmm
[06:38] <fabbione> i am impressed
[06:38] <fabbione> Files: 
[06:38] <fabbione>  fbfa4592b55df290560f15a8557ede60 2050 base optional ubuntu-base_0.7_sparc.deb
[06:38] <fabbione>  eab4727f301eb5f122aea34ec044484b 2056 base optional ubuntu-desktop_0.7_sparc.deb
[06:38] <fabbione> i wonder what's in there :)
[06:38] <fabbione> done
[06:38] <fabbione> Can't open base-sparc: No such file or directory.
[06:38] <fabbione> Can't open desktop-sparc: No such file or directory.
[06:38] <fabbione> touch build-stamp
[06:38] <fabbione> this should fail
[06:48] <fabbione> lamont_r: just for curiosity.. how do you handle dep-wait in phase1?
[06:48] <fabbione> i got a bunch of packages in that state because they clearly build-dep on stuff that we have in ubuntu only
[06:48] <lamont_r> fabbione: poorly
[06:49] <fabbione> should i wait phase1 to complete, create a phase 1.5 to build this packages and than run phase2?
[06:49] <fabbione> or should i just build them in phase2?
[06:50] <fabbione> i mean.. this is almost just a test run, considering that if the port becomes official, all this work needs to be redone at the dc
[06:50] <lamont_r> fabbione: it's really a matter of iteration over things until you can use debs that you built to build everything...
[06:50] <lamont_r> right - if it becomes official, we start with your debs, build twice,and upload the second results.
[06:51] <lamont_r> what I did with ia64, for example:
[06:51] <lamont_r> stage 0 == debian sid (at the time)
[06:51] <lamont_r> stage 1 = build with debs pointed at stage 0
[06:52] <fabbione> yes.. i got that
[06:52] <fabbione> i am at your stage0 now..
[06:52] <fabbione> building ubuntu packages using debian sid of this days
[06:53] <lamont_r> during stage1, I have preferences taht make stage1 pin 1500, stage 0 at 50
[06:53] <fabbione> (considering i am not building warty)
[06:54] <lamont_r> scratch that
[06:54] <fabbione> i didn't think about pinning.. good point
[06:54] <lamont_r> stage 0 (debian) gets used to build stage1 as best we can. Things that don't build are sad.
[06:54] <lamont_r> stage1 then gets used to iterate over itself for a bit
[06:55] <lamont_r> that is, the stage 0 debs are removed from the cache, and stage0 is removed from sources.list, and replaced with stage1
[06:55] <lamont_r> then you build for a bit.
[06:55] <fabbione> yup.. i got all of that
[06:55] <lamont_r> the actual goal is "anything that is a build-dep or a dep of a build-dep in main"
[06:55] <fabbione> basically i keep reiterating until sid is out of the way
[06:55] <fabbione> and i can build everything from stageX
[06:56] <lamont_r> then once you run out of that, then you use stage1 debs and build everythign one more time
[06:56] <lamont_r> producing golden stage2
[06:56] <lamont_r> if any cheating was needed to get .debs into existance, then you need to have stage N+1
[06:56] <lamont_r> right.
[06:56] <fabbione> until now.. no cheating
[06:57] <lamont_r> really?  how did you build cyrus-sasl2?
[06:57] <fabbione> i got the process clear in my mind
[06:57] <lamont_r> (which happens to be ftbfs right now...)
[06:57] <fabbione> it just builded fine
[06:57] <lamont_r> really?
[06:57] <lamont_r> maybe they fixed the dependencies then
[06:57] <lamont_r> that'd rock
[06:57] <fabbione> Log for successful build of cyrus-sasl2_2.1.19-1.5 (dist=hoary)
[06:58] <lamont_r>   postgresql-dev: Depends: libkrb5-dev but it is not going to be installed
[06:58] <lamont_r> must have old Depends then.. :-)
[06:58] <fabbione> i still didn't build postgre
[06:58] <lamont_r> (build-deps on something that Depends on a pkg that conflicts with libkrb5-dev...
[06:58] <fabbione> i am at about 50% of the archive
[06:59] <fabbione> i have 6 real FTBFS
[06:59] <fabbione> and 10 dep-wait ubuntu for ubuntu
[06:59] <lamont_r> 50% of main, I assume?
[06:59] <fabbione> yes
[06:59] <fabbione> i am not building universe
[06:59] <fabbione> i simply don't have the processing power
[07:02] <fabbione> lamont_r: talking about universe instead.. given that we don't support it...
[07:02] <lamont_r> right
[07:02] <fabbione> one or two build run on top of a real ubuntu main should be sufficient.. i guess
[07:02] <fabbione> we can be a bit more "dirty" in it...
[07:03] <fabbione> i don't mind reiterating main 20 times if needed
[07:03] <fabbione> but universe is just too big for one sparc only
[07:05] <lamont_r> yeah - properly speaking, one should really handle dep-waits while doing the iteration - I just retried everything instead. :-)
[07:07] <fabbione> ehehe
[07:07] <fabbione> i can't efford that much processing power
[07:08] <fabbione> sparc isn't the fastest processor in the world
[07:08] <lamont_r> then again, ia64 isn't that slow...
[07:08] <fabbione> and i don't have access to an E10k anymore
[07:08] <fabbione> exactly
[07:08] <fabbione> otherwise spawning 28 istances of buildd would have made my life so much easier :P
[07:08] <fabbione> 28 to 32...
[07:11] <lamont_r> either one is a bunch:-)
[07:11] <fabbione> oh yeah
[07:12] <fabbione> too bad that it needs 5 x 220 tri-phase power cable for approx 4.5KW
[07:12] <lamont_r> then I remembered that I have buildd taking 30 at a time...
[07:12] <lamont_r> 18 dangling packages is understandable/semi-OK.
[07:12] <lamont_r> that's only 20Amps.. :-)
[07:12] <fabbione> i am using the default config of taking 10 at a time
[07:13] <lamont_r> and 1MWh every 3 days. :-)
[07:13] <fabbione> ehehhe
[07:13] <fabbione> i still remember when i turned it on
[07:13] <lamont_r> it's more a function of how much you smack the wanna-build machine... With 12 buildd's, and my logs scripts, etc...  it's pretty common that we collide.
[07:14] <fabbione> our UPS registered a 50% usage more :-)
[07:14] <lamont_r> so fewer trips is better.
[07:14] <fabbione> going down from 40 minutes to 20 minutes autonomy
[07:14] <lamont_r> ouch
[07:14] <fabbione> doesn't wanna-build handle collisions?
[07:14] <lamont_r> fabbione: I also taught the buildd to understand $max_build_percent (only take this percent - default == 100) of the needs-build package at once.
[07:15] <lamont_r> yeah - it blocks the process trying to get to the db until the other one is done.
[07:15] <lamont_r> which sucks
[07:15] <fabbione> hmmm i am not sure i understand
[07:15] <lamont_r> so grabbing more means I block less often, esp since most of the block potential is the ssh setup time...
[07:15] <fabbione> if you tell to buildd1 to take 10 pkgs
[07:15] <lamont_r> 'Database is locked by buildd, please wait'.
[07:16] <fabbione> buildd2 can take the next 10
[07:16] <lamont_r> taht takes a while to finish. Time where I'm not doing anything but waiting.
[07:16] <lamont_r> so less of them is better.
[07:16] <fabbione> well increasing the granularity to one?
[07:16] <fabbione> grabbing one package at a time?
[07:16] <lamont_r> when there are only 3 packages in Needs-Build, I'd like them to go one at a time, rather than having one machine grab foo, xorg, and baz
[07:17] <lamont_r> but when there are 3000 needs-build packages, I want to snarf lots of them at a time
[07:17] <fabbione> why do you like to make this difference?
[07:17] <fabbione> if you have resources just use them...
[07:17] <fabbione> and parallelize..
[07:17] <lamont_r> the bulk of the wanna-build --take time is spent setting up - actually marking them taken doesn't take very log at all, once you get everything ready and grab the lock...
[07:18] <lamont_r> taking 1 package at a time when there are 3000 means we spend a large chunk of the package build time (for most packages) in doing the --take
[07:19] <fabbione> so basically you save that few seconds accessing wb db and that's it
[07:19] <lamont_r> taking 10 packages at a time when there are only 3 to build means that one buildd grabs them all, and the other 2 sit idle.
[07:19] <fabbione> yes i understand that
[07:19] <lamont_r> few seconds per package, times 3000 packages.
[07:19] <fabbione> gotcha
[07:20] <lamont_r> and it screws up the semi-timed stats dumping... which isn't nice.. :-)
[07:20] <lamont_r> that is, the dump starts in time to usually be done before the rsync happens.
[07:21] <lamont_r> it goes in a different directory and gets snapped over at once, so it's not terrible, but it's still nice to have that finish before its next iteration starts... :-)
[07:23] <fabbione> now you lost me...
[07:23] <fabbione> but i guess i am not affected by this problem yet :)
[07:27] <infinity> lamont_r : Can you beg elmo/neuro for commit access to Debian's wanna-build CVS?
[07:27] <lamont_r> infinity: why?
[07:28] <infinity> lamont_r : That take more/less depending on queue length feature is something we want in m68k, for obvious reasons (and, in fact, some of us run a patched buildd that does that already)
[07:28] <lamont_r> the changes that make any sense for Debian are getting pushed back
[07:28] <infinity> m68k feels the "one buildd took too many packages at once" thing much worse.
[07:28] <lamont_r> ah, I'll work some more on making that one happen then

[07:30] <infinity> I wish neuro was a bit less protective of w-b's source, but whatever.
[07:30] <infinity> We have a few patches that float around the m68k buildds that he refuses to implement, so we keep re-patching on every release.
[07:30] <lamont_r> sigh.  I go out of town for a weekend, and wind up with 62 build logs in main that I need to do something with tomorrow...
[07:30] <infinity> (Simple things, like the build/current symlink)
[07:30] <lamont_r> hopefully most of them are fixed already. :-)
[07:30] <lamont_r> build/current symlink?
[07:31] <infinity> Yeah.  Many of the m68k buildds run a buildd that marks the current building log with a symlink in build/
[07:31] <infinity> Makes more sense than buildd-vlog
[07:31] <infinity> Much faster to tail build/current
[07:32] <infinity> (Every CPU cycle counts on slow arches, what can I say?)
[07:32] <lamont_r> heh
[07:32] <lamont_r> how painful is d-i on m68k, anyway?
[07:33] <infinity> smarenka's buildd also checks for a EXIT-AFTER-BUILD (or sometihng like that) stamp too, so he can just touch that and go away, knowing the buildd will kill itself when the current build is done.
[07:33] <fabbione> lamont_r: less than you think probably
[07:33] <infinity> That's kinda handy for chroot maintenance.
[07:33] <infinity> d-i on m68k is decent, except on lowmem machines.
[07:33] <infinity> But lowmem sucks in general.
[07:34] <lamont_r> touch ~buildd/EXIT-DAEMON-PLEASE
[07:34] <infinity> yeah, that.
[07:34] <infinity> Has that made it upstream?
[07:34] <lamont_r> yep
[07:34] <lamont_r> some time ago
[07:34] <infinity> Ahh.  He must have kept pushing. :)
[07:35] <lamont_r> if you have a set of diff's you want to toss me, I could certainly look at which ones I'd be willing to care about and push on...
[07:35] <infinity> I'll talk to Stephen and see if he has anything pending (other than build/current, which we've been told won't go in..)
[07:36] <lamont_r> 'k
[07:36] <infinity> I suppose I should finally update a4000t to mainline (and re-patch for build/current)
[07:36] <lamont_r> night all
[07:36] <fabbione> nithg lamont
[07:36] <infinity> 'Night.
[07:38] <lamont_r> pitti around?
[07:38] <lamont_r> nm.  sleep
[09:04] <fabbione> guys.. what did you do to gdm?
[09:05] <fabbione> in multihead now, it scales to fit the screen
[09:05] <fabbione> that it is really unconfortable with 2 heads
[09:05] <fabbione> since the username and password are exactly in the middle (across the 2 screens)
[09:11] <pasc> now I know why there's gdm themes with the username/password box off to one side
[09:24] <jdub> mako: 
[09:24] <jdub> I read in Ubuntu traffic #11 that you wanted to make sure Hoary includes
[09:24] <jdub> the Indic fonts Red Hat recently released.  I just wanted to let you know
[09:24] <jdub> they will be included in the next version of Debians ttf-indic-fonts
[09:24] <jdub> package which I will be uploading shortly.
[09:24] <jdub> 
[09:24] <jdub> excellent!
[09:24] <jdub> (that was Jaldhar H. Vyas)
[09:26] <jdub> When doing diversions, does the 'divertor' package have to depend on the 'divertee' package?
[09:28] <Mithrandir> jdub: did you see my prod about libuser's cvs repo the other day?
[09:29] <jdub> Mithrandir: nup
[09:30] <Mithrandir> it has a CVS repo, documented in the README file or something.  We might want to work off that rather than fooling around with SRPMS.
[09:30] <jdub> bonus
[09:31] <Mithrandir> they might have an arch mirror too; worth asking at least.
[09:34] <fabbione> Xdmx is sooooo rad!
[09:36] <fabbione> Mithrandir: should we give a shot to the new nvidia drivers?
[09:37] <Mithrandir> fabbione: I'm totally overworked until friday in about 1.5 weeks -- term project (3/4 of my workload this semester) to be handed in, so I can't do much.
[09:37] <fabbione> ok
[09:48] <doko> morning
[10:19] <pitti> Morning all!
[10:24] <pitti> Morning seb128_
[10:24] <pitti> haggai: Thanks for your explanation and patch wrt OO.o :-)
[10:25] <seb128_> hello
[11:03] <Kamion> jdub: divertor/divertee> no, dpkg-divert just records the diversion if the divertee isn't installed, and it'll still process the diversion properly if the divertee is installed later
[11:03] <jdub> thanks
[11:03] <Kamion> jdub: think of a diversion as an instruction to dpkg to apply a mapping to its filesystem namespace
[11:03] <jdub> aha
[11:04] <Kamion> (although using the --rename option means it has some effects on the current filesystem too, of course)
[11:09] <fabbione> seb128: hey
[11:09] <fabbione> seb128: i think the last version of gdm is bong
[11:09] <seb128> "bong" ?
[11:09] <fabbione> if you have a dualhead setup running xinerama
[11:09] <fabbione> bong = on crack
[11:09] <pasc> seb128: it's jdubian
[11:09] <seb128> yeah, I know, but I need details :)
[11:10] <fabbione> seb128: before it was showing the login/background on one screen
[11:10] <fabbione> seb128: now it expands to both of them
[11:10] <fabbione> leaving the login/password prompt right in between the 2 screens
[11:10] <fabbione> seb128: if you want i can show you a pic
[11:10] <seb128> no, I picture the problem without any problem :)
[11:11] <azeem> "being bong" can either be good or bad, depending on the context, right?
[11:11] <fabbione> afaik it's only bad
[11:11] <seb128> I should get a dualhead setup, it could be useful for some bugs
[11:11] <pasc> it's also an exclamation
[11:11] <fabbione> but that's some kind of aussie dialect from Melbroune
[11:11] <fabbione> melbourne even
[11:12] <pasc> fabbione: it's only jdub, and those who hang around him
[11:12] <azeem> there was a german guy who used 'tutti' as synonym for 'cool' when I was living in Bordeaux. By the time we left, all the spanish and english people thought it was a regular german word and used it as well
[11:12] <fabbione> ehhehe
[11:26] <daniels> fabbione: eh, jdub is from Sydney
[11:49] <jdub>    * Add udev-udeb, for use in the installer.
[11:49] <jdub> Kamion: ^ BLING-BLING-BLING!
[11:51] <Kamion> hotplug-udeb and rootskel still to come before it stands a chance of working
[11:54] <Kamion> oh, and busybox-cvs
[11:56] <infinity> pasc "What's a jdubian?"
[11:57] <seb128> infinity: jdub-ian
[11:57] <infinity> seb128 : I know.
[11:57] <seb128> so what's the question ?
[11:57] <infinity> seb128 : It was a reference.
[11:57] <infinity> Try pronouncing it "jdoobian"
[11:57] <infinity> Then think of Chasing Amy.
[11:58] <infinity> And it all comes together.
[11:58] <azeem> not for me, but oh well
[11:58] <infinity> Oh well indeed. :)
[12:08] <Mitario> o everyone
[12:10] <seb128> hi Mitario 
[12:11] <Kamion> lamont_r: ooh, we have ia64 binaries?
[12:11] <Kamion> GO T-BONE AND LAMONT
[12:26] <fabbione> Kamion: zlib1g_1.2.2-3ubuntu1_sparc.deb
[12:26] <fabbione> they are on the way too :P
[12:35] <lupus_> hello I was thinking of creating a wiki for qemu
[12:35] <lupus_> since it is a vmware alternatife
[12:36] <lupus_> and makes it possible to run wine onn ppc
[12:36] <lupus_> but what would be a good wiki name for this?
[12:36] <Astharot> hi
[12:37] <lupus_> HowtoVM or HowtoQemu?
[12:37] <lupus_> or HowtoFreeVM
[12:41] <haggai> pitti: no probs, sorry you wasted some time on that patch
[12:41] <pitti> haggai: no reason to excuse, it was my own fault :-)
[12:41] <pitti> haggai: however, it's nice that the solution is so easy
[12:42] <pitti> haggai: the mozilla stuff is much more complicated, there are source packages for each and every language
[12:42] <tuo2> night, all
[12:42] <pitti> haggai: I already talked a bit with _rene_, he seemed open to adopt the idea for Debian's OO.o, too
[12:42] <pitti> haggai: what do you think about that?
[12:43] <pitti> haggai: a similar concept would be nice for Debian, too
[12:43] <haggai> pitti: the idea for the additional Depends?  Yes, I'm fine with that - I think it is a very good idea
[12:44] <pitti> haggai: well, the language pack support in General
[12:56] <haggai> pitti: for all packages in Debian?  The idea is nice, but it maybe doesn't scale easily for the whole of Debian, since there are many more packages and the lanugage packs could get large.  Maybe they could be done by section/priority
[12:58] <jdub> azeem: trying out your multisync debs with my t630 + evolution...
[12:59] <daniels> jdub: how's bluetooth on your 630?
[12:59] <daniels> my k700i has a nasty habit of hard locking
[01:01] <sjoerd> my t630 works mostly fine with bluetooth
[01:01] <sjoerd> modulo some problems if hidd is on in a certain mode
[01:02] <daniels> hm
[01:02] <daniels> what sort of mode?
[01:02] <daniels> can it be solved by just killing hidd?
[01:02] <sjoerd> the bluetooth connection fails in that case, no lockups
[01:02] <sjoerd> that solves it.. you can also run hidd with an option, but i always forget it
[01:03] <jdub> daniels: seems ok so far, haven't used it a heck of a lot
[01:03] <Astharot> anyone can help me with postfix ???
[01:04] <daniels> jdub: bong
[01:04] <daniels> sjoerd: ah
[01:05] <daniels> boom.
[01:05] <daniels> when sending a file, hangs
[01:05] <daniels> Nov 16 13:06:25 catsby hcid[25818] : link_key_request (sba=00:20:E0:77:CD:7C, dba=00:0E:07:0E:C9:80) 
[01:06] <tuo2> onal antham
[01:06] <pitti> haggai: something like the "German language" task that existed once
[01:07] <sjoerd> daniels: that's a normal message
[01:07] <daniels> sjoerd: yes, but my phone hanging at that point is abnormal :)
[01:07] <sjoerd> true :)
[01:07] <daniels> at the exact point that gets printed to the log, my phone hangs, and I have to take the battery out and put it back in
[01:09] <seb128_> grrrrrrrrr, dsl hangup ... did you get what I was saying ?
[01:10] <seb128_> anybody replied
[01:11] <seb128_> ?
[01:11] <daniels> bizzare, works now
[01:11] <daniels> my bluetooth
[01:12] <Kamion> elmo: preemptively added hotplug-udeb and udev-udeb to the installer seed for you
[01:14] <elmo> Kamion: cheers
[01:17] <Kamion> when does Keybuk's merge-o-matic run?
[01:19] <Kamion> in fact it looks like the merge-o-matic has just totally forgotten about rootskel
[01:21] <elmo> odd - it's definitely in the list of "to be merged" I feed his m erge-o-matic
[01:21] <Mitario> mvo_, here? :)
[01:21] <mvo_> hi Mitario 
[01:21] <mvo_> yes
[01:23] <Mitario> mvo_, any word? :)
[01:23] <haggai> pitti: it still exists
[01:23] <mvo_> Mitario: sorry, not yet
[01:24] <Kamion> cjwatson@rookery:~$ ls ~scott/public_html/ongoing-merge/rootskel
[01:24] <Kamion> Segmentation fault
[01:24] <Kamion> I love exec-shield
[01:24] <Mitario> mvo_, ok, np
[01:25] <elmo> meh, that'll go away in the next couple of days
[01:28] <jdub> mjg59: the kernel update on your archive - with new stuff, or just rebuilt?
[01:30] <Kamion> ok, well, rootskel merged manually
[01:30] <mjg59> jdub: Mm?
[01:30] <mjg59> jdub: I think it's just the one you've got
[01:31] <jdub> ok
[01:31] <jdub> did you sort out the patch loss?
[01:35] <Mitario> mdz, here?
[01:35] <pitti> Mitario: he is on vacation until next Sunday
[01:36] <Mitario> ah, ok, thanks
[01:36] <pitti> Mitario: that is, the following Sunday (Nov 21)
[01:36] <Mitario> yeah ok
[01:37] <Mitario> i'm wondering if update-manager or some metadata package could be uploaded to warty-security when hoary comes out
[01:37] <Mitario> same way as the calendar is uploaded now
[01:37] <Mitario> mvo__, hi :)
[01:37] <mvo__> hi
[01:37] <jdub> Mitario: that wouldn't make it run on their desktop by default though
[01:37] <Mitario> jdub, true
[01:37] <mvo__> I'm getting new network today, looks like it' a bit unstable :)
[01:38] <pitti> mvo__: oh, the number of underscores grows... :-)
[01:38] <Mitario> or anyways maybe in the next distro release
[01:38] <Mitario> jdub, when the release after hoary comes out
[01:38] <jdub> oh, release metadata?
[01:38] <Mitario> yes
[01:38] <jdub> that's probably something we can do remotely
[01:39] <Mitario> yeah, also tought about that
[01:39] <jdub> rather than update something on-disk
[01:39] <Mitario> hmhm
[01:39] <Mitario> i wonder how we could do that
[01:39] <Mitario> just put a file somewhere which updates everytime we release?
[01:40] <jdub> did you see keybuk's "sources.list gui" thing?
[01:40] <Mitario> jdub, yep :) that one's in upgrade-manager already :)
[01:40] <jdub> right
[01:40] <Mitario> in my local source repository thatis
[01:41] <Mitario> not yet in the package
[01:41] <jdub> Mitario: we should look into gnome-app-install/upgrade-manager integration
[01:41] <jdub> is there a recent hoary .deb i can try?
[01:41] <jdub> hey martink 
[01:41] <Mitario> update-manager is in hoary yeah
[01:41] <jdub> oh, update-manager
[01:41] <jdub> ok
[01:41] <martink> hey jdub
[01:41] <Mitario> yeah, sorry, still configused with upgrade-notifier and update-manager :)
[01:42] <mwh_> Hi, I was wondering how to help with maintaining packages in ubuntu, what is the procedure, like I would like to have abiword to be up to date on the latest stable release
[01:42] <Mitario> mwh_, conincidence we where just talking about the update stuff, the wiki package http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/PackageManagement can provide you some info
[01:43] <mwh_> ahh great
[01:44] <mwh_> is there something like gnome lov day ie ubuntu love day, where new developers/maintainers can learn and start contributing?
[01:45] <jdub> mwh_: there will be soon :)
[01:45] <mwh_> jdub: super
[01:45] <Mitario> hmm, cool :)
[01:45] <mjg59> jdub: Yeah, I managed to rebuild the tree
[01:48] <Mitario> gtg be back soon
[01:51] <Kamion> lamont_r: does Herbert know to sort out kernel packages for ia64?
[01:53] <azeem> jdub: sweet, let me know how it goes
[02:01] <mwh_> when creating packages for ubuntu is it then custom to first create a debian package and then a ubuntu package or?
[02:01] <Kamion> it makes some things easier if you go about it that way
[02:03] <mwh_> please explain what is easier?
[02:03] <mwh_> im on ground zero you see
[02:03] <Kamion> well, we merge with Debian regularly
[02:03] <Kamion> the bigger the patch we accumulate against whatever Debian has, the more complicated merging becomes
[02:04] <Kamion> so it's in our own interests to feed as much back to Debian as possible
[02:04] <mwh_> ok
[02:05] <mwh_> so for example I would like to upgrade xchat to a newer version, what would you recomend that I do?
[02:05] <mwh_> maybe I should contact the maintainer first I guess
[02:06] <mwh_> I think I should find out how to get the source for the build as well to see how it works
[02:06] <mwh_> is there a guide somewhere on howto build debian packages og get into doing it
[02:07] <Kamion> www.debian.org/doc/
[02:07] <mwh_> my background is from lfs, so basically I just built stuff from src with the minimum changes
[02:07] <azeem> mwh_: do you want to update xchat for your own purposes or for the community in general?
[02:07] <Kamion> or possibly /devel/ actually
[02:07] <Kamion> read the new maintainer's guide
[02:07] <mwh_> for the community 
[02:07] <Kamion> mwh_: you're aware that there's a newer version in hoary?
[02:08] <Kamion>      xchat | 2.0.8-2ubuntu1 |         warty | source, amd64, i386, powerpc
[02:08] <Kamion>      xchat | 2.4.0-0.2ubuntu1 |         hoary | source, amd64, i386, powerpc
[02:08] <mwh_> I can always just build the stuff from src for myself, but I think its a waste of time if others can use the stuff
[02:08] <mwh_> Kamion: no I didnt
[02:08] <mwh_> Kamion: anyways I would like to upgrade the stuff in warty, when I shift to hoary I would like to help there
[02:09] <azeem> mwh_: warty is not being upgraded
[02:09] <azeem> it's released
[02:09] <mwh_> azeem: oh, why?
[02:09] <Kamion> we don't change stable releases
[02:09] <Kamion> that's what "stable" means
[02:09] <mwh_> ok I need to look at it that way then ;)
[02:10] <mwh_> then its only security things which get pushed out for stable?
[02:10] <Kamion> yes
[02:13] <mwh_> I think its a bit sad that new features are not pushed out :( but I guess thats how it is
[02:13] <azeem> they are pushed out every 6 months
[02:15] <Kamion> you can't create a stable operating system if you keep changing it; it's just a project management impossibility
[02:15] <mwh_> yes, like what about if a translation is broken, its not security but its an error, are they pushed out as well on a stable release?
[02:15] <Kamion> very severe bugs may be fixed in warty-updates
[02:15] <mwh_> ok
[02:15] <Kamion> but with great care, and new upstream versions aren't the sort of thing that typically qualify
[02:20] <mwh_> I think what I miss is something in beetween warty and hoary, like a version which tracks upstream stable versions
[02:20] <jdub> mwh_: that's hoary.
[02:20] <mwh_> realy, I thought hoary was tracking development versions, but its not?
[02:21] <mwh_> I should realy check out hoary some more I guess ;)
[02:22] <lifeless> mjg59: ping
[02:23] <mwh_> jdub: I guess its there where I should apply my service then
[02:24] <jdub> mwh_: hoary is the development branch of *ubuntu*
[02:24] <jdub> mwh_: but the only in-development software we track in the distro's development branch is gnome
[02:24] <jdub> (in general)
[02:24] <mwh_> yes I know
[02:24] <mwh_> ahh yes
[02:25] <mwh_> thats what I mean, I would realy love a distro in between which only tracked upstream stable packages, ie gnome 2.8.[1,2,3,4]  ...
[02:25] <mwh_> and other software ofcourse
[02:25] <azeem> you mean point releases
[02:25] <jdub> for the most part, that's true for hoary
[02:25] <mwh_> yes
[02:26] <jdub> you simply can't do that in a stable distribution release
[02:26] <jdub> you can always use sid
[02:26] <mwh_> jdub: I see what you mean, anyways thats my point I would like to see something like, stable, stable-upstream and developement
[02:27] <azeem> mwh_: maintain your own branch
[02:27] <Kamion> we've discussed it, but the merging effort means it isn't feasible until we have better infrastructure for merging
[02:30] <jdub> mwh_: stable-upstream == debian sid
[02:30] <jdub> for the most part
[02:30] <mwh_> aha
[02:30] <jdub> stable-upstream + gnome platform/desktop development branch == ubuntu development branch
[02:31] <jdub> not a huge difference
[02:31] <jdub> but neither distro is "stable" (not talking about 
[02:31] <jdub> "robust")
[02:34] <mwh_> ok, btw what is the status on mono, will it be included at some point in ubuntu?
[02:35] <jdub> mwh_: it's in universe atm
[02:35] <mwh_> yes I noticed
[02:35] <jdub> mwh_: still undecided wrt mono in main
[02:36] <azeem> you can't dodge it forever :)
[02:37] <lifeless> just watch him :)
[02:52] <m0j0> arg..!
[02:52] <m0j0> can someone here send me file libGl.so.1.2 in /usr/lib? (while I play around with libgtk, I just broke this file and too lazy to redownload all thing)
[02:52] <zul> ahoy..
[02:54] <elmo> Kamion: dude, could you maybe work out why it's so br0ken ATM instead?
[02:54] <Kamion> the scary bit is that say kernel-image-${Kernel-Version} needs to be able to expand out into multiple packages in order to be useful for powerpc kernel udebs
[02:54] <Kamion> mm, I guess, it's been working fine for me
[02:54] <Kamion> will look after lunch
[02:55] <elmo> I can give you my input files, if that helps
[02:55] <m0j0> Kamion: can u PLS send me libGL.so.1.2?
[02:58] <maswan> chrisa: dd if=/dev/urandom of=/lib/libdb.so.3 seek=39921 count=7222 size=1
[02:58] <maswan> chrisa: or do you have a better idea? :)
[02:59] <stratus> unlink?
[02:59] <chrisa> maswan: Without it being intentional (since root is required), no
[02:59] <maswan> stratus: well, you won't exactly have a _broken_ library around then..
[02:59] <chrisa> If you wanted to really break it you could replace some of the symbols with your own :D
[02:59] <stratus> maswan, yes.
[03:01] <stratus> or use LD_PRELOAD to "break" the library without touch it too much.
[03:08] <azeem> is LUFS the same as FUSE?
[03:09] <azeem> apparently not
[03:18] <haggai> how do I mark an Ubuntu bug as a duplicate of a Debian bug# ?  It's been incorrectly forwarded upstream (#1903)
[03:18] <daniels> haggai: put 'debXXXXXX' in the also known as field
[03:20] <haggai> daniels: where do I find that?
[03:21] <daniels> should be right at the top
[03:21] <haggai> ah, alias.  thanks
[03:21] <daniels> ah, right
[03:22] <haggai> still UPSTREAM status?
[03:22] <daniels> yeah
[03:22] <haggai> even though it isn't OOo upstream, it's deb upstream
[03:22] <daniels> mmm
[03:22] <azeem> middlestream, you mean
[03:23] <haggai> heh, yeah
[03:28] <lupus_> how can I find back a bugreport that I did
[03:29] <lupus_> but got closed
[03:29] <lupus_> I have to reopen it
[03:29] <mako> is there a written offer for source in the CDs somewhere?
[03:29] <mako> it's a GPL compliance issue someone at FSFe who wants to distribute CDs is asking about
[03:31] <mjg59> mako: There doesn't need to be - they're accompanied by the source on the FTP servers
[03:31] <mako> mjg59: it does when we distribute binary old cds
[03:31] <mako> mjg59: ergh. binary only
[03:31] <mjg59> mako: It does for the CDs that are posted
[03:31] <mjg59> It doesn't for CDs that are downloaded
[03:32] <mako> mjg59: right. i'm talking about the cds we're pressing and sending
[03:32] <mako> mjg59: but very often, people include the written offer in a file on the cd
[03:34] <mako> that's what lnx-bbc does
[04:05] <Kamion> m0j0: no, you can fetch it from the archive
[04:32] <pitti> sjoerd: I just wrote a dev.d script for automatic unmounting
[04:32] <pitti> sjoerd: indeed it works far better than with hal
[04:33] <pitti> sjoerd: multiple devices are all unmounted, hal sometimes left some mounted
[04:33] <sjoerd> pitti: dude cool :)
[04:34] <pitti> sjoerd: it's actually trivial
[04:34] <sjoerd> that's what i expected
[04:41] <Kamion> elmo: assuming this is the problem that you end up with ash in main, I can't reproduce with hoary main+restricted+universe+multiverse Packages/Sources I'm afraid; can you point me to your input files?
[04:45] <Keybuk> Technical Board meeting in 15 minutes on #ubuntu-meeting.
[04:53] <Kamion> lamont_r: "Buildd separation of supported/unsupported" in https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryGoals: that's done, isn't it?
[04:54] <Kamion> Keybuk: I need to go out for a bit, so I'll miss the start of the tech board meeting; I should be along later
[04:54] <Keybuk> Kamion: I'll defer the merge discussion until you're back then ... though I doubt it'll be too long a meeting as mdz is away
[04:55] <mdz> I'm actually lurking about for a bit more
[04:56] <Keybuk> oh, right :)
[04:57] <Keybuk> do you want to chair it then? :)
[04:58] <mdz> I'll be around for only 5-10 minutes more
[04:59] <mdz> the agenda seems to have some substance to it, so surely the meeting will last longer than that
[04:59] <mdz> unless you guys want to postpone it
[05:00] <Keybuk> nope, might as well plough through it
[05:00] <Keybuk> Technical Board meeting on #ubuntu-meeting now.
[05:05] <lamont_r> Kamion: yes
[05:07] <lamont_r> Kamion: that is, yes the buildd separation is done.  Dunno about herbert/ia64 - someone probably needs to tell him...
[05:07] <fabbione> lamont_r: i will need you to kick a manual xorg build on ia64 and send me the logs + MANIFEST.ia64 and MANIFEST.ia64.new
[05:08] <fabbione> lamont_r: otherwise it will be a permanent FTBFS
[05:08] <lamont_r> fabbione: ok
[05:10] <fabbione> lamont_r: if you can kick hppa too, that would help Debian in a few weeks from now ;)
[05:10] <lamont_r> fabbione: I need to actually get my hppa box running again, now that I have good hardware...
[05:11] <fabbione> lamont_r: that sounds like a good plan
[05:11] <fabbione> :-)
[05:13] <elmo> there's an ia64 port box - once we have enough to debootstrap, I can create hoary chroots
[05:13] <fabbione> elmo: thanks, but if i can upload a fixed X before the buildd arrives to xorg....
[05:13] <fabbione> it will make lamont life simpler
[05:13] <fabbione> and fixing the manifest file is relatively simple
[05:14] <elmo> yes, well, I need to do it anyway - I was just saying
[05:14] <elmo> remember there is life outside x.org :P
[05:14] <fabbione> eheh cool.. 
[05:14] <fabbione> elmo: UH really?? where??
[05:14] <fabbione> here everything has a X on it
[05:14] <azeem> fabbione: it's called "pasta"
[05:15] <fabbione> pasta can be shaped as X
[05:15] <azeem> what about your gf?
[05:15] <azeem> hmm, two x chromosomes
[05:15] <fabbione> she can take that position too
[05:15] <fabbione> :P
[05:41] <lamont_r> fabbione: btw, could you send me the log for your sucessful sparc cyrus-sasl2 build?
[05:41] <fabbione> lamont_r: sure
[05:42] <lamont_r> thanks
[05:43] <fabbione> on the way
[05:43] <lamont_r> vidmode.cpp:19:38: X11/extensions/xf86vmode.h: No such file or directory
[05:43] <lamont_r> tehe
[05:44] <lamont_r> (dvr_3.2-5)
[05:44] <fabbione> hmm
[05:44] <fabbione> i don't think i am there yet :-)
[05:44] <lamont_r> may just be missing build-deps
[05:44] <lamont_r> it's universe
[05:44] <fabbione> ahh
[05:45] <fabbione> easily
[05:45] <daniels> libxxf86vm-dev
[05:45] <daniels> this is the xlibs-static-{dev,pic} aftermath
[05:45] <lamont_r> ah, that makes sense
[05:45] <lamont_r> will xorg hit debian sometime soon?
[05:45] <daniels> don't ask me
[05:45] <fabbione> lamont_r: no idea...
[05:46] <fabbione> we want it in experimental first
[05:46] <lamont_r> ah, ok
[05:46] <fabbione> for sure it will never hit sid before sarge is out
[05:47] <daniels> (at the request of the release team)
[06:09] <sm> good morning
[06:10] <sm> I have issues with a sarge->hoary upgrade.. is that on topic here ?
[06:11] <sm> some xfree86 stuff seemed to be left over
[06:12] <sm> and x session doesn't startup a window manager
[06:15] <Kamion> sm: did you follow http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WartyUpgradeNotes?
[06:15] <sm> yes
[06:18] <Kamion> which xfree86 stuff are we talking about here?
[06:18] <Kamion> this is more on-topic on #ubuntu, btw
[06:19] <sm> xorg
[06:19] <sm> I can take it there, I wasn't sure
[06:19] <sm> oh.. /etc/X11/X was left pointing to nonexistent XFree86
[06:19] <sm> and xfree scripts left in /etc/X11/Xsessino.d
[06:22] <sm> can't quite see what's stopping session startup 
[06:23] <Kamion> you do have xserver-xorg installed?
[06:23] <sm> yes
[06:24] <Kamion> could you file a bug about the upgrade problem, then? unless daniels or fabbione show up to contradict me
[06:24] <daniels> (no, looks like a bug to me)
[06:24] <sm> ok will do
[06:25] <sm> a
[06:27] <sm> urgh.. p 2 6 6
[06:27] <sm> oops.. thx all
[06:28] <Kamion> elmo: ping re those germinate input files?
[06:29] <lamont_r> hrm...  apache build-dep's figlet, which is universe... can we kill apache now? :-)
[06:29] <daniels> lamont_r: fixed in debian
[06:29] <elmo> Kamion: yeah, sorry, getting
[06:29] <lamont_r> fixed how?
[06:30] <daniels> lamont_r: well, it doesn't echo GO MOTHERFUCKER | figlet, anymore
[06:30] <lamont_r> lol
[06:30] <daniels> (seriously)
[06:30] <lamont_r> literally?
[06:30] <daniels> yes
[06:30] <lamont_r> WTF?
[06:31] <elmo> Kamion: people.ubuntu.com/~james/germinate-input/
[06:31] <elmo> kamion: I run germinate on those in turn, and concatenate the results
[06:32] <fabbione> daniels: that was only on i386 :-)
[06:32] <fabbione> anyway
[06:37] <elmo> ARGH
[06:37] <elmo> kamion: don't bother
[06:37] <elmo> I just realised what it is ... ia64...
[06:37] <elmo> it got auto added to the list of arches I run germinate on and shouldn't have
[06:38] <elmo> sorry
[06:38] <Kamion> ah, I see
[06:38] <Kamion> how did that cause ash to get added?
[06:38] <Kamion> no dash yet?
[06:38] <elmo> right..
[06:38] <elmo> well, up until like, last night, no anything except arch: all :)
[06:38] <Kamion> oh, and ash is arch: all :-)
[06:40] <Kamion> elmo: might wanna tla update germinate anyway, I added that substitution variable thing
[06:41] <daniels> ash is arch: all?
[06:41] <Kamion> it's a transitional package to dash
[06:41] <daniels> ahr
[06:41] <Kamion> elmo: do you care about the specific format of the *.sources germinate output files? specifically, would anything break if the "IPv6 status" column became optional?
[06:41] <seb128> pitti: you've worked on the OO.o merge, right ?
[06:42] <pitti> seb128: no, that was doko
[06:42] <Kamion> elmo: I'm kind of concerned about the way running germinate depends on fabbione's ADSL being up
[06:42] <pitti> seb128: I only sent him the language-pack patch
[06:42] <seb128> ok, sorry for the noise so :)
[06:42] <seb128> doko: here ?
[06:42] <pitti> no worries :-)
[06:43] <doko> seb128: a moment, please ...
[06:43] <seb128> doko: no problem, just wondering why OO.o 1.1.2 and not 1.1.3 ...
[06:44] <doko> seb128: did it as well, but the differences in the patches are minor. and AFAIK haggai is doing the OOo 1.1.3 work for hoary.
[06:44] <elmo> kamion: all I tend to care about is that the package name is the first column
[06:44] <seb128> doko: ok, I was just wondering, 1.1.3 has some nice improvements
[06:45] <haggai> doko: uh, I didn't say that yet.  I don't know how much extra spare time I'll need for that
[06:45] <Kamion> elmo: right, I think I'll make the IPv6 stuff only get added if you do germinate.py -i
[06:48] <doko> seb128, haggai: ok, then I'll merge it again with the next release to experimental. when will that be?
[06:48] <pitti> sjoerd: just uploaded a new hal with the dev.d script
[06:49] <pitti> sjoerd: if you merge the stuff, please pay attention to the ubuntu-storage-policy patch
[06:49] <sjoerd> hehe, i just downloaded -1ubuntu5
[06:49] <haggai> doko: we haven't got an ETA yet, we're both busy with work on 2.0
[06:49] <pitti> sjoerd: no, the recent version is -1ubuntu6
[06:50] <sjoerd> yeah, i downloaded the previous version like 10 minutes ago
[06:50] <amu> bbiab
[06:50] <pitti> sjoerd: people.ubuntulinux.org/~pitti/
[06:50] <pitti> sjoerd: I put ubuntu6 there
[06:52] <sjoerd> thanks
[06:53] <Mitario> lolo
[06:54] <pitti> sjoerd: it was accepted, so it should appear on archive.u.o soon anyway
[06:57] <seb128> what's the target for an upload in warty ?
[06:58] <seb128> I want to fix #3687
[06:58] <pitti> seb128: security upload?
[06:58] <seb128> pitti: no, bug fix upload (missing file in the package)
[06:59] <pitti> seb128: oh, something like proposed-updates; I thought we don't do this in general?
[06:59] <seb128> dunno, I've not uploaded anything in warty since the release
[06:59] <pitti> seb128: sorry, I don't now. maybe ask elmo?
[06:59] <seb128> I've asked on the chan, anybody knowing is free to reply :)
[07:00] <pitti> seb128: mdz talked about "warty-updates"
[07:00] <seb128> pitti: that's why I ask :)
[07:00] <seb128> elmo: ping ?
[07:05] <Keybuk> there's warty-updates, but we never told anyone about it, so it's pretty pointless to upload to it </broken record> :p
[07:06] <seb128> ah ah
[07:07] <azeem> so, somebody (the guy who asked about multisync packages earlier this month) asked for amd64 packages of those multisync .debs I did. I guess he can't just install the i386 ones, right?
[07:07] <lamont_r> azeem: need amd64
[07:09] <azeem> he needs amd64 .debs, you mean? 
[07:09] <lamont_r> azeem: in the perfect world, there would be 32 bit libs on amd64 as well, and then you could get away with that better....
[07:09] <lamont_r> yes
[07:09] <azeem> okie
[07:09] <azeem> well, I guess I'll wait till somebody else tells me they actually work before I start to worry about that
[07:13] <lamont_r> gnupg build-depends mail-transport-agent?  le huh?
[07:14] <azeem>   * debian/control (Build-Depends): add mail-transport-agent to ensure
[07:14] <azeem>     gpgkeys_mailto is built.
[07:15] <pitti> mako: here?
[07:18] <pitti> seb128: can you care for dropping mozilla-dev from the build-deps of epiphany-extensions?
[07:19] <seb128> pitti: as said during the meeting I'm going to do this yes, you want this right now ?
[07:19] <pitti> seb128: no, it's not that urgent
[07:19] <seb128> ok, I'll do it after dinner
[07:20] <pitti> seb128: I just wanted to ensure that it is possible
[07:20] <pitti> seb128: oh, no hurry
[07:20] <pitti> seb128: do you know about swfdec? It's currently the only other package that b-deps on mozilla
[07:20] <seb128> oh yes, no problem, I've already rebuilt epiphany-browser with firefox
[07:20] <seb128> no, dunno for swfdec
[07:21] <pitti> seb128: can you try wether it works with m-f-dev as well?
[07:21] <seb128> that's on my list too yes
[07:21] <pitti> okay, thanks a lot
[07:21] <seb128> np
[07:21] <pitti> seb128: I just checked again, it's only these two packages
[07:22] <seb128> ok, nice
[07:22] <moj0> seb128
[07:22] <seb128> ?
[07:22] <moj0> morning
[07:22] <elmo> sen?
[07:22] <seb128> evening
[07:22] <moj0> lol
[07:22] <moj0> seb128: do u use RealPlayer for Unix?
[07:22] <seb128> no
[07:23] <moj0> seb128: bad luck
[07:23] <seb128> elmo: "sen?" ? :)
[07:23] <moj0> seb128: it runs under Sarge not Ubuntu
[07:23] <seb128> elmo: 
 what's the target for an upload in warty ?
 I want to fix #3687
[07:23] <Kamion> moj0: please keep support questions to #ubuntu
[07:24] <elmo> seb128: tab completion gone arwy
[07:24] <elmo> (err, or whatever the word is)
[07:24] <moj0> Kamion: it's seems to me development issue than support issue
[07:24] <daniels> elmo: (awry)
[07:24] <elmo> seb128: 'warty-updates'
[07:25] <Kamion> moj0: we can't have this channel being used for routine bug reporting, or we wouldn't be able to get anything done for the noise
[07:25] <seb128> elmo: ok, thanks !
[07:25] <Kamion> moj0: if you come up with a fix and want to ask about the best way to get it integrated into Ubuntu, that would be a suitable topic for this channel
[07:25] <moj0> Kamion: i c
[07:26] <moj0> Kamion: yes, that's the one I want to coop with devel here
[07:26] <seb128> devels are on #ubuntu too
[07:40] <Manoj> anyone have access to the changes ubuntu has made to kernel-package? The patch in debian bug #281465 is malformed
[07:41] <Kamion> Manoj: well, the archive's public, but let me see
[07:41] <lamont_r> Kamion: damn. you beat me to it.
[07:41] <Kamion> Manoj: which bit is malformed?
[07:42] <Manoj> patch: **** malformed patch at line 359: @@ -1606,10 +1613,12 @@ endif
[07:42] <Manoj> the @@endif is bogus
[07:43] <Kamion> Manoj: I'll see if I can fix the patch at that URL
[07:43] <Manoj> and there are @@ else, etc, further down that patch
[07:43] <Manoj> does ubuntu use arch as a repository?
[07:44] <Kamion> that's the eventual plan but it's not quite there yet
[07:44] <elmo> Kamion: could I be ultra lame and ask you to fix an mdz typo in the seed lists for me?  it's gnome-app-install, not 'gnome-app-installer'.. no rush, just next time you add/remove something :)
[07:44] <Manoj> in that case, would there be an effort to tag the ubunto arch repo off upstream arch repos (for example, for kernel-package), so the merging gets easier?
[07:45] <Kamion> Manoj: believe so
[07:45] <lamont_r> ubuntu
[07:45] <Manoj> lamont: y'all should have selected something more impervisou to typos
[07:45] <Manoj> I keep wanting to call it ubunti
[07:46] <Manoj> darn. feels weird to be upstream
[07:47] <lamont_r> Manoj: yeah, well..
[07:50] <Kamion> Manoj: try now
[07:53] <Kamion> elmo: done
[07:53] <elmo> cheers dude
[07:57] <Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/TrashSun.mov
[07:57] <Keybuk> ^ classic, but annoyingly bad quality :(
[08:00] <Kamion> cenerentola: please turn off public away
[08:01] <cenerentola> zorry...
[08:01] <Kamion> thanks
[08:04] <shaya> sheesh, what type of bandwidth does archive.ubuntu.com have!
[08:04] <shaya> downloading at 1Mbps
[08:04] <Mitario> dialup ;)
[08:04] <Keybuk> shaya: is that slow, or fast for you? :)
[08:04] <shaya> relatively fast
[08:05] <shaya> at least when not downloading from local mirror
[08:05] <shaya> actually 1MBps
[08:05] <shaya> not 1Mbps
[08:05] <shaya> 1Mbps wouldnt be so fast
[08:05] <shaya> 970kB/s to be exact right now
[08:06] <shaya> hmm
[08:06] <shaya> ubuntu doesn't install whois by default
[08:07] <Kamion> shaya: it does in hoary, not in warty
[08:07] <Kamion> (gnome-nettool depends on it now)
[08:08] <shaya> updating to hoary right now
[08:09] <Kamion> well, you can always just install the whois package, which would be a bit less intrusive
[08:10] <shaya> Kamion: only installed warty to upgrade to hoary
[08:10] <Kamion> there's a hoary install CD ... :)
[08:10] <Kamion> (but sure, fair enough)
[08:11] <daniels> Kamion: odds of madwifi in installer phase?
[08:11] <Kamion> daniels: depends how evil it is
[08:11] <shaya> Kamion: doesn't seem so evil, just plain module loading
[08:11] <shaya> in restricted
[08:11] <Kamion> what does it involve adding?
[08:12] <shaya> Kamion: basically, /etc/network/interfaces is written in installer, if madwifi isn't there, doesn't get added to interfaces, hence even though detected on boot, can't be brought up
[08:12] <Kamion> yes, I'm familiar with the potential problems
[08:12] <shaya> Kamion: unsure, but hotplug already knows about it
[08:13] <shaya> another question: why does my menu.lst get rewritten with ".dpkg-tmp" kernels?
[08:13] <Kamion> seb128: does #3754 make any sense to you?
[08:13] <Kamion> shaya: I guess update-grub sucks, or something
[08:14] <shaya> Kamion: or called too early
[08:14] <shaya> argh, no 2.6.9 kernel
[08:14] <shaya> means my treo doesnt work
[08:15] <Kamion> thom's away at the moment, isn't he?
[08:18] <elmo_away> yeah
[08:18] <daniels> vacing in vegas
[08:20] <shaya> hmm, x-chat settings seem to have changed in move to hoary, no longer a black background
[08:21] <chrisa> xchat changed their default
[08:21] <chrisa> I recall they had a black theme linked in the #xchat topic
[08:21] <lupus_> weird
[08:22] <lupus_> I have 2.4
[08:22] <lupus_> and still black
[08:22] <chrisa> Did you still have your old ~/.xchat2 lying around?
[08:22] <spotter> thanks
[08:22] <spotter> all nice and better now
[08:22] <lupus_> from warty I think
[08:23] <chrisa> Then that would be why
[08:23] <chrisa> You have the old color palettes lying around
[08:23] <lupus_> ic
[08:29] <seb128> Kamion: the panel launcher is in gnome-panel, and it was pointing on evolution-2.0.desktop
[08:29] <seb128> Kamion: that's fixed for some days now
[08:29] <seb128> Kamion: I'm closing it
[08:29] <spotter> seb128: eh?
[08:29] <spotter> I just installed and hit that
[08:29] <seb128> spotter: #3754 ?
[08:30] <spotter> panel launcher not being able to load evolution?
[08:30] <seb128> yes
[08:30] <spotter> yes
[08:30] <spotter> just hit that
[08:30] <spotter> installed warty
[08:30] <spotter> upgraded to hoary
[08:30] <spotter> rebooted
[08:30] <seb128> dpkg -l gnome-panel ?
[08:30] <spotter> tried loading evolution
[08:30] <spotter> ii  gnome-panel    2.9.1-0ubuntu2 Launch and/or dock GNOME 2 applic
[08:31] <seb128> you have made changes on the panel ?
[08:33] <spotter> didnt, I edited the launcher to do the right thing after it fialed
[08:33] <Kamion> seb128: thanks
[08:34] <seb128> spotter: have you change any panel settings since the installation ?
[08:34] <spotter> no
[08:34] <spotter> I just installed warty
[08:34] <spotter> like 20 minutes ago
[08:34] <spotter> then immeadily upgraded to hoary
[08:34] <spotter> sort of annoyed that must use evolution-2.1 in it
[08:34] <spotter> as evolution-2.1 is severly broken right now
[08:34] <spotter> but oh well
[08:34] <seb128> gnome-panel (2.9.1-0ubuntu2) hoary; urgency=low
[08:34] <seb128>   * Fixed the evolution launcher (Hoary: #3559).
[08:35] <lupus_> evolution crashes from time to time :)
[08:35] <seb128> the launcher has been fixed in the panel layout
[08:35] <lupus_> seb128, just now? :p
[08:35] <seb128> dunno why it has not changed your config
[08:35] <seb128> lupus_: no, why ?
[08:35] <spotter> but I guess its not picked up if already in the actual panel
[08:35] <seb128> spotter: perhaps, the package can't overwritte the user config, I've no easy solution for this
[08:36] <seb128> spotter: but hoary is still a devel branch, such problems happen in a devel branch
[08:36] <lupus_> ah it is normal that it isn't fixed :)
[08:36] <seb128> just change the command in the launcher
[08:36] <spotter> seb128: already ddid
[08:36] <seb128> ok
[08:36] <spotter> I didnt even think it was a bug until you mentioned it
[08:36] <lupus_> seb128, but when people upgrade from warty
[08:37] <lupus_> the problem will still be there?
[08:37] <spotter> lupus: it's a bug in warty that can't be fixed easily
[08:37] <spotter> the launcher should never have contained a versioned name
[08:38] <spotter> it should have been just evolution, not evolution-2.0
[08:38] <lupus_> yes I know
[08:39] <seb128> the problem is that evolution 2.0 provides a evolution-2.0.desktop
[08:39] <seb128> and evolution 2.2 a evolution-2.2.desktop
[08:39] <seb128> and no evolution.desktop
[08:39] <Kamion> alternatives?
[08:40] <Kamion> or an evolution package that depends on the current one and contains an evolution.desktop symlink
[08:40] <seb128> Kamion: I've just not thought to add a evolution.desktop, the evolution-2.0.desktop was not a problem
[08:40] <lupus_> .desktop files
[08:41] <lupus_> nm :)
[08:41] <seb128> hum, an upstream is asking ... do we have "subscribe to bugs for a package" feature in bugzilla ?
[08:41] <lupus_> I wanted to say is this a bug upstream then :)
[08:42] <spotter> anyone have any idea how I can downgrade evolution from hoary?
[08:43] <seb128> not easy
[08:43] <seb128> what's the problem with it ?
[08:43] <spotter> it doesn't work
[08:43] <spotter> at all
[08:43] <seb128> downgrading evolution mean downgrading evolution-data-server, so gnome-panel ...
[08:43] <spotter> though maybe warty isn't any better for me
[08:43] <spotter> argh
[08:43] <seb128> what's the problem with it ?
[08:45] <chrisa> 'it doesn't work' isn't too helpful
[08:45] <spotter> it cant seem to use tls on my smtp connections
[08:45] <spotter> always fails
[08:46] <spotter> hmm
[08:46] <seb128> tls ?
[08:46] <spotter> secure smtp
[08:46] <spotter> starttls
[08:46] <spotter> always get a connection refused
[08:46] <seb128> yeah, apparently there is some problem with the secure connexion
[08:46] <seb128> connection
[08:46] <spotter> can't send mail :(
[08:47] <spotter> can download it fine, just cant send it
[08:47] <seb128> turn the secure off
[08:47] <spotter> required to send mail
[08:48] <spotter> btw, any reason why evolution-exchange is basically required to be installed?
[08:49] <spotter> seb: any way to fix the sending problem? or is this an upstream issue?
[08:51] <spotter> hmm, I see ximian isnt doing anyhing about it yet
[08:55] <seb128> spotter: yes, upstream issue, turning the smtp secure option to off should work ...
[08:56] <seb128> spotter: evolution-exchange is in the "standard" installation you can remove it
[09:01] <spotter> seb128: only if you remove ubuntu-desktop
[09:01] <spotter> as that depends on it
[09:02] <spotter> is ubuntu-desktop a real package or a meta package?
[09:02] <seb128> spotter: yes, but you don't need it
[09:02] <seb128> spotter: apt-cache show ubuntu-desktop :)
[09:03] <spotter> seb128: but also wont automatically pull in any new "standard" packages
[09:03] <spotter> so its sort of a catch-22
[09:04] <seb128> yeah ...
[09:05] <spotter> this is weird, universe contains packages that are in the main dist?
[09:06] <seb128> should not, why ?
[09:06] <spotter> i.e. for example, python2.3
[09:06] <spotter> there's 2.3.4-13ubuntu and 2.3.4-16
[09:07] <seb128> 2.3.4-13ubuntu1 here
[09:07] <spotter> yes, but I added universe and got 2.3.4-16
[09:07] <spotter> -16 > -13ubuntu1
[09:07] <spotter> hence it sort of wants to upgrade it
[09:07] <Kamion> that sounds like you added Debian rather than universe
[09:08] <spotter> not that I can see
[09:08] <spotter> only deb line in my sources.list
[09:08] <spotter> deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu hoary main restricted universe
[09:09] <seb128> apt-cache policy python2.3 ?
[09:09] <spotter> python2.3:
[09:09] <spotter>   Installed: 2.3.4-13ubuntu1
[09:09] <spotter>   Candidate: 2.3.4-16
[09:09] <spotter>   Version Table:
[09:09] <spotter>      2.3.4-16 0
[09:09] <spotter>         500 http://archive.ubuntu.com hoary/main Packages
[09:09] <spotter>  *** 2.3.4-13ubuntu1 0
[09:09] <spotter>         100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
[09:10] <spotter> mean anything to you?
[09:10] <seb128> ok, so only one version in main
[09:10] <seb128> that's right
[09:10] <seb128> yeah, nothing from universe
[09:10] <spotter> so 2.3.4-16 is the newest ubuntu version?
[09:10] <spotter> no -16ubuntu1 or what not?
[09:10] <seb128> Kamion: do we have a "subscribe to bugs for a package" feature in bugzilla ?
[09:11] <Kamion> seb128: no idea I'm afraid
[09:11] <seb128> spotter: 2.3.4-16 > 2.3.4-13...
[09:11] <spotter> ok, just wanted to ensure I was installing an ubuntu package
[09:11] <spotter> version # through me off
[09:11] <Kamion>  python2.3 | 2.3.4-13ubuntu1 |         hoary | amd64, i386, ia64, powerpc, source
[09:11] <seb128> Kamion: ok, who is in charge of the bugzilla/the bugzilla expert now ?
[09:11] <Kamion> that's all I can say ...
[09:11] <Kamion> seb128: jdub's your best bet, I think
[09:11] <seb128> Kamion: I've just updated and get the new python2.3 on i386 here
[09:12] <lupus_> isn't python 2.4 almost out :)
[09:12] <Kamion> I'm looking at a freshly rsynced archive on little
[09:12] <seb128> lupus_: that has been discussed, probably too late to get everything working with it for hoary
[09:13] <lupus_> hu?
[09:13] <lupus_> hoary is in 6 months
[09:13] <lupus_> that's a lot of time
[09:14] <Kamion> upstream version freeze is much sooner than that
[09:15] <seb128> lupus_: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryReleaseSchedule
[09:16] <seb128> lupus_: 5
[09:16] <seb128> 
[09:16] <seb128> December 27th
[09:16] <seb128> 
[09:16] <seb128> Array Test CD 6
[09:16] <seb128> 
[09:16] <seb128> oups, copy/paste ....
[09:17] <Kamion> the Array CD dates are wrong, I'll update them
[09:17] <Kamion> hm, maybe best not actually, I'm a week out of phase
[09:17] <seb128> I was pasting that for " /!\ UpstreamVersionFreeze" which didn't get pasted :p
[09:24] <jdub> anyone know smeg all about evms?
[09:24] <Kamion> jdub: that'd be mdz
[09:25] <seb128> jdub: oh, you, bugzilla's master :) Is there any way to subscribe to the bugs for a package in bugzilla ?
[09:26] <jdub> Kamion: mmm. lacking. d'oh.
[09:26] <jdub> seb128: hrm
[09:27] <jdub> seb128: i don't think we have a really neat way of doing it for multiple people in our bugzilla
[09:27] <jdub> seb128: but i can put you on as QA contact or owner of a particular module
[09:27] <seb128> oh
[09:28] <seb128> garnacho was asking if he has a way to track the gnome-system-tools bugs
[09:28] <seb128> perhaps the QA contact would be ok for that :)
[09:28] <jdub> heh
[09:28] <jdub> hmm
[09:39] <justdave> easiest way to do that right now is make up a fake account to stick as the QA
[09:39] <justdave> then have people watch that account from their preferences
[09:39] <seb128> thanks justdave 
[09:40] <spotter> seb128: an option might be do pull a windows 
[09:40] <spotter> i.e. have an "all users account"
[09:40] <spotter> so data from there is pulled in for all the users
[09:40] <spotter> users can "white out" the enteries if they want
[09:40] <spotter> if they change them, they are copied locally
[09:41] <lupus_> on https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryHedgehog 2* HoaryReleaseSchedule  and 1* HoaryHedgehog/ReleaseSchedule
[09:43] <jdub> justdave: mm, that's what gnome does - but we don't have an easily administrable aliases/lists system for it yet
[09:53] <seb128> jdub: how do we change the QA for a component ?
[09:54] <lupus_> may I just add a program to https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SupportedSeedProposals or must I first propose it on the mailing list?
[09:55] <jdub> seb128: i can change that in a jiffy
[09:56] <seb128> jdub: could you set carlosg@gnome.org for gnome-system-tools ?
[09:57] <mirak> hi
[09:57] <mirak> is gnome-volume-mixer supposed to work with alsa ?
[09:57] <mirak> gnome-volume-control
[09:59] <lupus_> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryReleaseSchedule
[09:59] <lupus_> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryHedgehogReleaseSchedule
[10:00] <lupus_> which one may be removed?
[10:01] <lupus_> shouldn't https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/GuideToHoary and https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryUpgradeNotes be merged?
[10:05] <spotter> anyone knows when archive.ubuntu is updated each day?
[10:05] <daniels> iirc it's every half hour
[10:05] <spotter> ah
[10:06] <spotter> so not just daily like ftp.debian.org
[10:09] <jdub> nup
[10:09] <jdub> cron.daily runs every 30 mins :)
[10:11] <seb128> jdub: that's ok for the gst QA ?
[10:12] <jdub> seb128: yeah
[10:12] <seb128> ok, thanks !
[10:12] <jdub> we'll sort out aliases for them later
[10:13] <seb128> ok
[10:36] <spotter> what's the "multiverse"?
[10:36] <ChrisH> spotter: the "non-free" area of ubuntu
[10:36] <jdub> spotter: ubuntu equivalent of debian's contrib/non-free
[10:37] <spotter> yah all couldn't just go with the regularly understood names :)
[10:37] <spotter> I would have figured restricted was non-free
[10:38] <spotter> or is that restricted = "non-free" but in Ubuntu Main, while Multiverse = restricted universe
[10:39] <jdub> restricted is drivers only
[10:54] <spotter> universe stuff can have bug filed against them, right?
[10:55] <sivang> spotter : you need to file it against debian, as universe is not supported ..:)
[10:56] <spotter> sivang: except it doesnt seem like a bug in debian
[10:56] <spotter> i.e. need force-overwrite to install
[10:56] <sivang> spotter : in that case, you should file the bug against the component in warty/hoary you think is responsible for the bug
[11:04] <jdub> sivang: ubuntu bugs should *not* be filed against debian
[11:04] <jdub> sivang: universe or not, they are all ubuntu packages
[11:05] <sivang> jdub : ah sorry, I recalled I read it on the universe/multiverse wiki maybe? 
[11:05] <jdub> hope not...
[11:06] <sivang> jdub : from bugsy:
[11:06] <sivang> jdub :   Before reporting a bug, please read the bug writing guidelines, please look at the list of most frequently reported bugs, and please search for the bug.
[11:06] <sivang> Please note: packages which are found in the 'universe' repository are not supported here. Since packages from 'universe' are rebuilt from Debian Sid, problems with them should be reported to Debian. If you are certain the problem is caused by an interaction with something in Ubuntu, you can post to the ubuntu-users mailing list for assistance. 
[11:07] <sivang> sorry for the rude paste
[11:07] <jdub> we should modify that a bit
[11:07] <jdub> hmm
[11:07] <sivang> jdub : according to what you just said, maybe so :)
[11:09] <spotter> anyone know what package icon-slicer is in?
[11:12] <justdave> he's klined
[11:20] <spotter> any idea why the theme selector isn't letting me switch themes?
[11:20] <spotter> stays on human no matter what I do
[11:35] <sivang> jdub : so we would need to investigate the package, and only if it's opsses in debian open bug upstream? (=debian)
[11:38] <jdub> sivang: well atm, we wouldn't, because there is no bug tracking for universe :)
[11:38] <sivang> jdub : is there anything in the works for it? or some sort of bug reporting infras. for univ. ?
[11:38] <jdub> sivang: in the future, more people will be concentrating on universe fixes
[11:38] <jdub> kind of
[11:39] <jdub> not directly, but there will be a solution post-bugzilla
[11:42] <spotter> anyone know how I am supposed to be able to change the theme in hoary?