lupus_is there a spec from freedesktop.org12:04
danielswhat sort of psec?12:04
lupus_where to save favourites, my documents, my music12:05
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spotterhow does one change the ubuntu locale, so that I get color instead of colour12:05
danielslupus_: no12:05
lupus_I was thinking of using .Documents/ and let gnome-vfs for example create my documents or in my language mijn documten 12:06
lupus_to it12:06
lupus_so you can store somewhere and the name of the location is translatable since it is handled by gnome-vfs12:07
jdublupus_: the design proposed by alex will mean translated names in the gui, normal names on the filesystem12:09
jdubnot dot directories, either12:09
jdubthis is the same way os x does it12:09
lupus_where is this method discribed?12:10
jdubo don't think there's a single document12:10
lupus_couldn't that design be used for downloads instead of desktop?12:11
jdubno, that's a different problem12:13
jdubthe downloads stuff is a matter of choosing a good location12:14
jdubthe translation stuff is just a way of seeing what's on disk differently12:14
robertjjdub: is synaptic coming out of the Computer menu when gnome-app-install gets done?12:30
jdubrobertj: most likely12:31
lupus_jdub, http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=8888 I think this will interest you ( Reducing Fedora Boot Time )12:38
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jdublupus_: mmm, posted links to ubuntu-devel previously :)12:42
lupus_:) I hadn't openened the png's so I thought those where new :)12:44
amun8 12:50
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Keybuk * Creating copy of debian gaim12:58
Keybuk * Considering public_html/ongoing-merge/gaim/gaim_debian.patch12:58
Keybuk   - 1 patch hunks dropped12:58
Keybuk * Creating copy of ubuntu gaim12:58
Keybuk * Considering public_html/ongoing-merge/gaim/gaim_ubuntu.patch12:58
Keybuk   - All patch hunks applied12:58
Keybuk * Using result of applying ubuntu patch12:58
KeybukI found one12:58
Keybuk(invert the "result of applying X patch" bit -- it's the wrong way round)12:58
Keybukactually, sorry, it's the "Creating copy of X gaim" that's the wrong way round12:59
Keybuk * Creating copy of ubuntu gaim01:00
Keybuk * Considering public_html/ongoing-merge/gaim/gaim_debian.patch01:00
Keybuk   - 1 patch hunks dropped01:00
Keybuk * Creating copy of debian gaim01:00
Keybuk * Considering public_html/ongoing-merge/gaim/gaim_ubuntu.patch01:00
Keybuk   - All patch hunks applied01:00
Keybuk * Using result of applying ubuntu patch01:00
Keybuk... there, fixed01:00
jdubwhee :)01:01
thomman, rendezvous in gaim is SO FUCKED01:03
=== Kamion builds a test debian-installer with udev-udeb, hotplug-udeb, new busybox-cvs, new rootskel
Kamion... and watches it crash and burn, oh dear01:07
danielsKamion: nice!01:07
KeybukKamion: work directories should be gone too <g>01:15
Safari_Aljdub, thanks for that email.01:16
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robertjIs partition resizing on the list for hoary?01:18
Kamionwhat kind of partition resizing?01:23
lamont_rNov 17 00:25:41 buildd: Nothing to do -- sleeping 300 seconds01:26
lamont_rnow I'm stuck with fixing cyrus-sasl2 sometime.01:29
lupus_ntfsresize is in sid installer, will also be in ubuntu?01:29
Keybuklamont_r: want the new set of merges all assigned to you?  if you're bored? :p01:29
lamont_rhow big is the set?01:29
Keybuk20 today01:30
Keybuk(this is actually about 5 days worth ... because some idiot commented out the "download the new needs-merged.txt file" line)01:31
lamont_ryou could certainly assign them to me...01:34
lamont_rI'd eventually forgive you...01:37
Kamionlupus_: already is in hoary01:40
robertjKamion: sorry, ahead of myself. On-the-fly NTFS resizing01:40
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Kamionrobertj: see what I said to lupus_ then01:41
Kamionrobertj: download Array CD 1, try it out01:41
Kamionsee ubuntu-users mailing list archives ...01:42
KamionSubject: Array CD 101:42
Keybuk^ that's the list of new, unassigned "main" merges01:42
Kamiongarrr, this installer crash is really hard to reproduce under any kind of controlled conditions01:44
lupus_Kamion, I'm supprised ubuntu uses ntfs since redhat doesn't dare to touch it because of IP problems01:46
Kamionlupus_: reference for that claim?01:47
Kamionlupus_: we don't use it for anything important, it's just the stuff from the stock kernel01:47
lupus_I know01:47
lupus_but redhat does not include the ntfs kernel module01:47
lupus_Why doesn't my Distro support NTFS?01:49
lupus_Due to the uncertain legal status of using the NTFS driver, RedHat and Fedora have chosen to leave the driver out of their kernels. 01:49
Kamionit's not something that's come up, and it doesn't seem to have bothered anyone in Debian either01:49
lupus_so it ntfs is not only in non_US or something in debian?01:50
Kamionit's in the Debian stock kernels; non-US is essentially dead01:51
lupus_ic :)01:51
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lamont_relmo: I see you arrived safely01:53
Keybukthe George does seem to have utterly replaced the Claverley as the Canonical hotel now01:54
jdubthom: it should be fixed up to use howl01:55
jdubKeybuk: is it better?01:57
lamont_ris the George better?01:57
thomjdub: yes01:57
thomthere's a launchpad sprint and a baz sprint?01:58
KeybukI've not actually sampled the George yet01:58
elmothe George is so much better it's not funny02:00
elmodecent 2Mb internet, okay rooms, good food02:00
Keybukbut no cute staff :'(02:00
elmodude, you just said you haven't been here yet?02:01
jdubelmo: ahr, that's reasonable02:01
Keybukelmo: I asked others who rated them for me :)02:01
elmooh, yes, now I remember kinnison complaining about the porter who bought up his special pillow :)02:02
Keybukhis "special" pillow :)02:05
Kamiondo I want to know?02:07
jdubKamion: waterproof.02:07
Keybukit's the "special" sheeting you need to worry about02:08
jdublamont_r: looked into the postfix disk access stuff?02:08
lamont_rvs laptop you mean?02:09
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Kamionrunning /sbin/debian-installer under strace is sufficient to make the problems go away02:14
=== Kamion bangs head on desk
Kamionjdub: could you add an xserver-xorg package to bugzilla please?02:16
robertjKamion: you may need to proceed onto more intense debugging techniques such as banging hand in cabinet or, for the most challenging bugs, slamming nuts into car-door02:16
=== Kamion winces
lifelessrobertj: thats vicious. 02:25
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robertjKamion: do you use bochs to debug d-i?02:48
Kamionrobertj: no, I have plenty of real test hardware which is much faster02:48
Kamionusually CD since that's the primary Ubuntu installation method02:49
Kamionoccasionally netboot02:49
robertjhehe, how many times does a rewriter rewrite ;)02:49
Kamionnot had enough coasters yet to worry about it02:49
Kamionmaybe one or two out of I suppose many hundreds of writes02:50
Kamionthe main disadvantage of using CDs is that they're slow02:51
robertjis there a way to take screenshots during the install?02:53
lupus_can someone look if he also has this in /etc : drwxr-s---   2 root   dip         96 2004-11-15 22:37 chatscripts02:54
Kamionrobertj: not without some kind of emulation02:55
Kamionerk, I think I'm hitting some kind of library reduction bug03:32
Kamionadding /usr/bin/strace to the image is sufficient to make it work03:33
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jdublamont: yeah03:57
jdubKamion: sure03:57
jdubKamion: done04:01
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jdubwhat's this mondo/mindi stuff?04:19
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shayaI think I discovered a regression in ubuntu's gnome over plain debian05:07
shayain plain debian, if I click on the dvd device (with a dvd movie inside) it auto launches totem05:07
shayain ubuntu, gnome-device-manager takes care of the initial load of totem (which doesn't work in debian) but every other open action, just opens the dvd in nautilus05:08
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infinityshaya : Is that a 2.6 versus 2.8 thing, or a Debian versus Ubuntu thing?06:43
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fabbionemorning guys07:06
infinityYou've had reports via IRC?07:18
infinityOn non-UML hosts?07:18
infinity(That .mem file is sparse on every non-UML host I've run across, and never large enough to be an issue)07:18
infinityfabbione : Also, this is clearly the wrong channel.  Pretend I was typing in #debian-apache.07:19
infinityfabbione : I'm half asleep. :)07:19
lifelessmjg59: are there plans to get your kernel into hoary? (I'd love to have a prop ati driver package :))07:19
fabbioneinfinity: don't worry :-), but yes.. i got the same report on a non uml host07:35
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infinityfabbione : Was the report "I ran out of space on /tmp" or was it "there's a giant file in /tmp and it scares me!"?07:41
infinityfabbione : Cause I've had a lot of the latter before (which goes away when you tell them "it's a spare file, retard")07:41
infinityfabbione : Note that until very recently, PHP/libmm on unstable worked this very same way.07:42
fabbioneinfinity: apache was crashing on restart. 07:42
fabbionedowngrade mm was fine again07:42
fabbionesame setup except outside UML07:42
infinityMust have been a tiny /tmp07:42
infinityOr stable's libmm is broken in even more interesting ways than unstable's.07:43
fabbionealso.. if it was working before with a 1MB /tmp it must keep working if nothing else changed07:43
infinity<nod>.. I agree.  The change should have been tested more.07:43
fabbioneinfinity: libmm in stable got an update in the "attempt" to fix a php segfault07:43
infinityNot much we can do about it now, unless Joey can push a fix in somehow.07:44
fabbioneinfinity: i am going to knock on Joey's door if he doesn't fix it now07:44
fabbioneor i will let him adopt apache... so he can feel the pain07:44
infinity(FOr the reocrd, I had no idea broonie had uploaded that s-p-u upload until it made it into the last update... I only expected him to do the MMFILE experimenting on unstable..)07:45
fabbioneread the changelog...07:45
infinityAnd, for added irony, I've since completely removed MM as a session handler in PHP, cause it sucks.07:45
fabbioneit is scary07:45
=== infinity runs off and stops abusing #u-d.
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fabbionehey lamont08:56
lamont_ryo, even09:14
fabbionelamont_r: i saw all the build failures for x.org on ia64 :-)09:14
lamont_rhow many?09:14
fabbioneif you can send me the files i asked for, i can fix it before we upload the next version09:14
fabbioneseveral failures...09:15
fabbionebecause it's missing rman :-)09:15
fabbionean orgy of failures :P09:15
lamont_ryeah - it's still building from a partial archive09:15
lamont_rand then I'll have to really fix cyrus-sasl2 tomorrow...09:16
fabbioneand it is trying at a regular rate of once every hour :-P09:16
lamont_rof course, nearly time to fall over tonight.09:16
lamont_rreally... hrm. yeah.09:16
fabbionedid you spot the problem with my logs?09:16
lamont_rnot yet09:16
lamont_rmore to the point, I didn't spot how your's managed to avoid the failure...09:17
fabbionebecause my sparc is more cool than your buildd's?09:17
fabbionetake a look at zsh09:18
fabbionedid you install autoconf on amd64 and ia64 buildd manually?09:18
fabbionebecause i get the same FTBFS as i386 and ppc09:19
fabbionepossible leftovers?09:20
lamont_rI do have that...09:20
fabbionewhich file?09:20
lamont_rI suppose it's possible that autoconf got installed and left somehow, but I don't believe so09:21
fabbione        "xserver"                       => "xserver-xfree86",09:22
fabbionethere are a bunch of those that needs love09:22
infinityNothing build-deps on xserver anymore.09:22
lamont_ryeah - mail-transport-agent is another09:22
lamont_rwhich is good..09:22
infinityRather, yes.09:23
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=== infinity wonders how long it would take him to bootstrap and build ubuntu/main on m68k if he pulled a couple of 060s out of the Debian buildd rotation for a while...
fabbioneinfinity: a lot.. and you will fail on X.org :-)09:25
fabbionei still need to merge the MANIFEST files check09:25
fabbionebut the code compiles without any glitch09:25
fabbionemorning seb128 09:25
infinityfabbione : How many regressions have you guys found in moving from XF86 to Xorg?09:25
seb128hi fabbione 09:26
fabbioneinfinity: from a usage pov or packaging pov?09:26
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infinityfabbione : Usage.09:27
fabbioneinfinity: only 3 or 4, but nothing really bad09:27
fabbionewe have only 3 bugs open on X.org09:27
fabbioneone of them fixed upstream09:27
infinityYou'll get a few more if you push it into Debian, I'd imagine. :009:27
fabbioneinfinity: i am sure about that too, but we need to merge first09:28
fabbioneand Overfiend is still drawing the layout for the SVN repo09:28
fabbioneafter that we can start syncing again09:28
infinityNo chance of a hostile takeover, I guess?09:28
fabbionewhy a hostile takeover?09:29
fabbioneOverfiend and I work perfectly together09:29
fabbionethere is NO point in taking over09:29
infinityFair enough.  But the lack of DanielS in the team seems like a mistake.09:29
infinityClash of egos notwithstanding.09:30
seb128fabbione: how is the UTF-8 issue going ?09:30
fabbioneinfinity: i have been pushing changes back and forward in place of Overfiend and DanielS09:30
fabbioneinfinity: so that is not an issue09:30
fabbioneseb128: it's not.. it is not high priority for me at the moment09:30
fabbioneseb128: you will have to bug daniels at least until DecConf09:31
seb128fabbione: there is no hurry, I was just wondering09:31
fabbioneseb128: i know :-) i don't feel the pressure09:31
=== lamont_r sleeps
fabbionenight lamont09:37
seb128'night lamont_r 09:37
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fabbionesabdfl morning 09:52
sabdflhiya fabbione09:53
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seb128daniels: here ?10:07
danielsseb128: yo, sup10:10
seb128daniels: 10:10
seb128xine-lib (1-rc6a-1ubuntu1) hoary; urgency=low10:10
seb128  * Resync with Debian.10:10
seb128that's not really useful to redo a merge with the new version10:10
seb128do you any details on what do you merged ?10:10
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danielsi took the ubuntu changes ... and applied them to the debian version ... like the rest of the sync ...10:12
seb128ok, so I just have to read the diff to get the ubuntu changes ? :)10:12
seb128that's only the 10:12
seb128  * debian/control:10:12
seb128  - Also build-depend on libtheora-dev, because it is worthy of our praise and10:12
seb128    adulation. Also, tautologies.10:12
calcsomeone using theora finally10:13
seb128ah ah10:13
=== calc has yet to ever use it despite maintaining it
danielsseb128: um, yeah, dude10:13
seb128ok, thanks10:14
calcdaniels: canonical hackfest in london?10:14
=== calc sees everyone with the same ip
infinityHotel with a dinky 2Mb pipe.  You could DoS it and make a great number of Canonical folk very unhappy.10:15
infinityNot that I'd suggest such a thing.10:16
elmo__infinity: all two of them10:16
=== elmo__ is now known as elmo
infinityOh, that's less fun, then.10:16
infinityAnd lulu...10:16
infinityThat's 3.10:16
elmoinfinity: dude, this IP isn't the hotel10:16
infinityOh. :)10:16
=== infinity goes back to his hole.
daniels(the hotel is the one with 'hotel' in the domain name)10:17
danielsi'm glad I checked in as 'george rumpadinkle' :P10:18
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azeemdaf: did you repackage the ruby-gnome2 upstream tarball? The size seems to be slightly off to what's on upstream's download site, or I picked the wrong tarball11:37
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seb128elmo: gaim sync please :)01:05
seb128jamesh: here ?01:05
elmoseb128: done01:11
Kamionjdub: ... with Fabio as maintainer? (xserver-xorg)01:12
danielsKamion: hmm?01:13
Kamiondaniels: unless there's a Bugzilla account that goes to both of you01:17
danielsKamion: assigned to d.s@c.c please01:17
KamionFabio's the xserver-xfree86 maintainer at the moment; should it be you for xserver-xorg?01:17
Kamionjdub: ^--01:17
danielsKamion: xorg is mine now, yah01:17
fabbioneKamion: *X* -> daniels01:18
Kamionbonus for Fabio, then :-)01:22
danielsheh, yeah01:22
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=== sid77 ciao
fabbionesparcbuildd@vultus5:~/chroots$ sudo rm -rf xorg-chroot/01:29
=== fabbione grins
fabbionedaniels: sparc is done and changes committed to baz01:29
danielsawesome, will update it01:29
danielsnice work :)01:29
fabbionei need to find the time to merge m68k01:30
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stratusDo i need report that sed 4.1.2-2 postinst is f*cked?01:41
sid77just reported (again) in #ubuntu01:42
stratushmm 3771 maybe01:42
danielsstratus: no01:42
danielsstratus: known problem, came in via a debian sync, will be fixed via a debian sync01:42
sid77btw, is there anything to do beside waiting?01:42
sid77answered by daniels 01:43
stratusdaniels, i see01:43
Kamionthe sed thing has been reported about 10 times so far01:43
stratussid77, bugzilla.ubuntu.com/377101:43
stratusno problem i was just asking and searching at bugzilla at the same time01:43
sid77stratus, I know01:43
danielsKamion: my My Bugs query now makes me look a hell of a lot worse01:43
Kamionit's already been fixed in Debian incoming01:44
Kamiondaniels: heh01:44
Kamiondaniels: try mine01:44
stratusyes, 4.1.2-3 is there01:44
Kamiondaniels: (100 bugs or thereabouts; I made a heroic effort the other day to get it down from 120-ish)01:47
danielsKamion: wow, nice01:48
fabbionedaniels: -1 hour and 2 minutes01:58
fabbione1 hour to go02:00
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amuhaggai: *waves*02:09
seb128elmo: python-gnome2 sync too :)02:09
Kamionelmo: please sync console-data02:16
Kamionelmo: please sync redland from Debian02:34
Kamionboggle, now d-i/udev just works; I didn't do anything to fix it02:36
=== Kamion looks confused
Kamionlast night main-menu was segfaulting away02:36
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Mithrandirhmm, are we going to move to gcc-3.4 for hoary?02:41
elmoKamion: done02:42
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fabbionedaniels: i think i found a really really bad bug in xserver-xorg02:51
danielswhat is it?02:51
daniels(please don't say it's about xkb, or I'll cry)02:51
fabbionei need to see if i can reproduce it but it i think we lost debconf data on conversion from xserver-xfree8602:52
danielswhat data?02:52
fabbioneat least 3 things... monitor identifier, and vert/horiz sync02:53
fabbioneit happend on the hp box02:54
fabbionenot on mine02:54
danielsso what's the effect of losing V/H?  recalculated from resolution?02:55
fabbionei need to try and reproduce it02:55
fabbionedaniels: you are the X.org maintainer.. you need to tell me :P02:55
fabbioneno seriously02:55
fabbionei need to check on a 3rd box02:56
danielshey man, you know my plans for sync rates being written out anyway :)02:56
danielsfabbione: hey, here's a cool datapoint03:04
danielswhen we use libX11 from the modular tree, UTF-8 locales work.03:04
fabbionedaniels: good.. now diff them and find the fix :P03:05
danielsha ha ha03:06
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fabbionedaniels: apparently it was a glitch on the hp03:12
fabbionethe other 4 installations are ok03:12
fabbionedaniels: please verify witrh debconf-show xserver-xorg03:12
fabbioneif you get all the values as expected03:12
fabbioneguys.. you too03:12
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danielsfabbione: ok, the UTF-8 problem isn't related to the locale *data*, it's a code issue03:18
danielsfabbione: i have h-s and v-s03:19
fabbionedaniels: ok good. it's a glitch on the hp box than03:22
fabbionei will have to check it later03:22
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michiel_hi everyone03:30
sivanghi pitti03:31
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Mitario*sigh* great03:31
Mitarioi think the breakage of the sed package is not new? :)03:36
KamionMitario: new today in Debian, also fixed in Debian incoming03:36
Mitarioah ok03:36
Kamionreported lots :)03:36
Mitarioyeah, thought so :)03:36
seb128the package which is in incoming doesn't build here :/03:36
=== ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:bob2] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion and support on #ubuntu | Hoary is here: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2004-October/000005.html | Want to help? see https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryGoals | yes, sed is broken in sid and hoary, fix coming soon
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=== Kamion completes an installation with d-i/udev
elmoKamion: rock on03:43
danielsfabbione: found the spots where threading is TOTALLY BROKEN03:44
fabbionedaniels: good03:44
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Kamionseb128: built fine on the Debian buildds04:01
elmoKamion: did you hear back from Lamont WRT Herbert and ia64 ?04:02
Kamionelmo: no04:02
elmook, I'll mail him - I need some kernel love for ia64 myself anyways04:03
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Kamionelmo: we *are* still contracting Herbert, aren't we? haven't heard anything from him in a while04:18
seb128Kamion: apparently the problem is locale dependent04:19
elmoKamion: yep, I talked to him about kernel  security stuff yesterday04:19
elmobob2: is that some variation on tourettes?04:19
Kamionelmo: ah, good04:21
Kamionseb128: yay :-/04:21
Kamionelmo: we should have a swear-box for buzzwords04:21
danielsKamion: XORG COMPOSITE SHINY04:21
Kamion*bzzt* *bzzt* *bzzt*04:22
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=== sid77 bye!
spotteris there any reason universe packages don't appear in the gnome menu, even when they have a .desktop file (and appear in plain debian)04:30
spotterfor example, blam04:30
rburtonspotter: tried killing the panel?04:31
rburtonthat will force the panel to re-read04:32
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spotterit usually does it by itself w/ot that04:32
rburtonthis is a bug, do you have fam/gamin installed?04:33
spottergamin is installed04:34
spotterand so is fam04:34
spotterthat cant be a good thing04:34
spotterhmm, guess they dont conflict04:35
spotterthought they did04:35
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spotterhmm, dpkg seems to allow one to remove dependencies04:37
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azeemhoary features evolution-2.1, right?04:59
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pittisjoerd: just read the hal commit changelogs; looks nice :-)05:02
sjoerdpitti: thanks05:03
sjoerdpitti: one issue though.. My external usb2 disk doesn't have the sysfs removable property set to 105:03
pittisjoerd: now that you tried out tarball.mk, do you actually like it? You should not use it just because I do :-)05:04
pittisjoerd: bad05:04
sjoerddbs-edit-patch is indeed very nice05:04
pittisjoerd: but pmount does not only rely on this attribute05:04
pittisjoerd: it uses the attribute in addition to bus checking05:04
sjoerdbut to set it up correctly is a hassle 05:04
sjoerdpitti: that doesn't help hal :(05:05
pittisjoerd: all USB and FireWire devices should work (also with older kernels, which don't provide the attribute anyway)05:05
pittisjoerd: ah, I see what you mean05:05
pittisjoerd: does it work with other devices?05:05
sjoerdyah my usb flash pen thingy works fine05:05
sjoerdbrw-r-----  1 root hal 8, 33 Nov 16 22:44 /dev/sdc105:06
sjoerdpitti: currently hacking gvm so we can just specify "/usr/bin/pmount-hal %h"05:07
pittioh, you changed the permissions to 064005:07
pittisjoerd: but I already modified g-v-m to do that05:07
pittisjoerd: ah, you mean you support the %foo templates?05:08
pittilike %d for device, %u for udi and so on?05:08
elmopitti: 'Using sudo is inherently insecure' - what crack are you on, and can I have some please?05:09
danielselmo: please dude, no more :P05:10
pittielmo: because as soon as the user sudo'ed something, all of his processes have essentially root capabilities05:10
Keybukpitti: that's the same as "su" though05:10
Keybuk"user who can become root" in "can become root" shocker05:11
pittiwell, only if you have the timeout, which su does not have05:11
Keybuk*shrug* just send key presses to the terminal with su running inside it05:11
Keybukit's not exactly rocket science05:11
Keybuksudo encourages you to *not* leave a root shell open all the time05:12
pittisudo is just a little worse, but it does not open principially new holes05:12
KeybukI'd say sudo is a little better05:12
pittiKeybuk: but you can gain root even if you don't have a root shell open05:12
Keybukonly within a few minutes of the user becoming root themselves05:12
elmopitti: dude, there is more to sudo than "unrestricted root"05:12
pittiKeybuk: I think sudo and su don't differ quite much in this regard05:12
pittielmo: right05:12
pittielmo: but in Warty it's unrestricted root05:13
pittielmo: that's why I said that I don't bother to fix the bug in Warty05:13
pittielmo: it can be fixed in Hoary and upstream, for my sake05:13
pittielmo: well, if there is a general desire, I do fix the bug in Warty05:13
pittibut I don't really see the benefit05:13
KeybukANYTHING that lets you elevate your privileges is an attack honeypot05:14
pittifix a small hole and neglect the really big one? hmm05:14
elmopitti: no, dude it's not "unrestricted root" in warty05:14
elmoI have 40 servers that say otherwise05:14
pittilogging in as root at a text console is the only safe way anyway05:14
Keybukthere is absolutely no way to allow someone to "become an administrator" which isn't a gaping security hole05:14
elmoplease don't make inane assumptions like users never customize 05:14
pittielmo: do your servers call sudo programs without specifying the exact path?05:16
pittielmo: because the attack only works if you call programs without path05:16
pittibut then you can as well put a trojan horse somewhere else in $PATH05:16
pittiWell, for my sake I fix it05:16
elmono, they don't - what's that got to do with anything tho?    my point is that the default, is just that, the default.  it's not the only way sudo is used05:17
pittiKeybuk: what's wrong with login at the text console?05:17
danielspitti: the fact it's at a data centre?05:17
pittidaniels: well, root login over ssh should be safe too, right? The pty belongs to root05:18
Keybukpitti: uh, no05:18
Keybukthe terminal is owned by the USER05:18
Keybuksimply debug the terminal and send key presses to it05:18
Keybukand that's not even considering anything more evil05:18
pittiKeybuk: no, it's not; if I login as ROOT, the terminal is owned by root05:19
Keybukpitti: login as root where?05:19
Keybukthe machine's in the data centre05:19
pittiKeybuk: text console?05:19
pittiKeybuk: or ssh05:19
danielspitti: send key events via XTest05:19
pittidaniels: I speak about text consoles, not X terminals05:19
Keybukso to login to the data centre machine as root, you switch your own desktop/laptop to text console and login there as root, sshing from root to root to get to the other machine?05:19
danielspitti: so you have everyone with the one root account.  rad.05:20
pittiKeybuk: that's an entirely different problem; I speak about the host you login to, not the client side05:20
danielspitti: right05:20
Keybukpitti: no, it's exactly the same problem05:20
danielspitti: so, at the clientside, you do it in an xterm05:20
danielspitti: and I just send lots of XTest key events05:20
danielsand screen-scrape your xterm05:20
pittidaniels: as I said, there is no safe way to login as root under X05:20
Keybukif you don't clean-room root the entire way, you're argument drops onto the floor and dies05:20
danielspitti: so you are talking about the clientside05:21
pittiKeybuk: of course, if you don't trust your laptop, you shouldn't do ssh root. There is simply no other way05:21
pittiKeybuk: you HAVE to trust the whole chain05:21
danielspitti: so what you're saying is that no-one should bother running computers?05:21
pittiKeybuk: and this is entirely orthogonal to sudo/su/whatever authentication system05:22
pittidaniels: no05:22
Keybukpitti: no, it's entirely the same thing05:22
Keybukas soon as there is a gateway where you go from a mortal to a superuser, that is where you attack05:22
pittidaniels: I said that the only safe way to login as root at my computer is vga text console, not from an user's session05:22
Keybukit doesn't matter whether that's a command like su or sudo on the server, or someone's ssh client on their laptop05:22
pittiKeybuk: of course05:22
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Keybuk"running anything as root is inherently insecure"05:24
Keybuknot just sudo05:24
pittiprocesses that run as root can't be touched by other users (apart from buffer overflows and similar holes, of course)05:25
pittiso root processes are not insecure by design, to the contrary05:25
pittithe weak point is the authentication05:25
daniels17:22 < Keybuk> as soon as there is a gateway where you go from a mortal to a superuser, that is where you attack05:26
pittiso as soon as you use sudo and su from an user's session, root and user don't have separated contexts any more, and root is no better any more05:26
Kamionyes, and bugs that weaken the authentication further are unacceptable for exactly that reason05:26
pittiKamion: what do you mean in particular?05:27
Keybukpitti: but it's not just sudo and su, it's as soon as you use any method to become root from a user's session -- ssh root@ is just as attackable05:27
pittiKamion: the sudo bug does not weaken authentication05:27
pittiKeybuk: of course, that was my exact argument05:28
Keybukbut you need to be able to become root from a user's session05:28
danielsthe sudo bug does weaken authentication05:28
danielsbecause it allows you to escalate privileges in ways that you shouldn't be able to05:28
Keybukso the concern instead goes to limiting the damage05:28
danielsregardless of the default configuration, surely that's a method of weakening authentication?05:28
pittidaniels: no, it enables you to run trojan horses in an already authenticated root session05:28
danielsyes, which is escalating privileges in ways that you shouldn't be able to05:29
daniels(fwiw, xfree86 is go whenever the buildds are done)05:29
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pittidaniels: if you allow users to run sudo programs without full path, you have lost anyway05:29
Kamionpitti: uh, no, restricted sudo is not a freely available root session; you're arguing that it's OK to turn restricted sudo into unrestricted sudo which it totally isn't05:29
pittidaniels: you don't need functions for that05:29
Kamionthat's a rather binary argument IMHO05:30
pittidaniels: I already released xfree8605:30
danielsah, cool.  thanks.05:30
pittiKamion: with "restricted" you mean that you can only run some programs?05:30
pittiKamion: and you say that it is safe to specify the set of allowed programs without full path?05:31
daniels(e.g. for freedesktop.org, pasc will probably be allowed to run /usr/sbin/postfix -- and *only* /usr/sbin/postfix -- as whatever he needs to, as he admins our mail)05:31
pittidaniels: ah. But pasc will _not_ be allowed to run "postfix", right?05:31
pittidaniels: if you specified /usr/bin/postfix, then you are safe even with the current sudo05:32
Kamionpitti: ah, hmm05:32
azeemdoes sudo qualify the path and then look it up?05:32
pittidaniels: the bug applies only if you specify without path05:32
pittiazeem: it uses $PATH normally05:32
Kamionis there a way to force a particular $PATH in sudoers05:33
pittias I see it, sudo should rather clean the $PATH instead of purging all functions from the environment05:33
pittiKamion: I have to research that05:33
pittiKamion: you can specify the "env_reset" flag05:34
pittiKamion: oh no, this will not alter $PATH05:35
pittiKamion: however, it seems like a good idea anyway (and will close this export function bug, too)05:35
Kamionwe build --with-secure-path="/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/X11R6/bin"05:35
Kamionso surely env_reset would reset $PATH to that?05:35
pittiah, nice05:35
pittiKamion: the manpage says that it only purges everything but HOME, LOGNAME, PATH, SHELL, TERM, and USER05:36
pittiKamion: so --with-secure-path should rather be applied unconditionally05:36
Kamionyes, but then right afterwards it says that PATH will be set to the value of SECURE_PATH if sudo was compiled that way05:36
pitticurrently, "sudo echo $PATH" prints for me:05:37
Kamioner, $PATH is expanded *before* sudo gets a look-in in that command!05:38
Kamion<cjwatson@cairhien ~>$ echo $PATH05:38
Kamion<cjwatson@cairhien ~>$ sudo sh -c 'echo $PATH'05:38
Kamionthat's on Debian, but should be the same05:38
pittioh, right05:38
pittijust checked05:39
Kamion<cjwatson@cairhien ~>$ which burn-cd05:39
Kamion<cjwatson@cairhien ~>$ sudo burn-cd05:39
Kamionsudo: burn-cd: command not found05:39
Kamionso it looks like sudo already does clean the $PATH before looking up where to execute a binary, and this vulnerability is indeed relevant05:40
pittias I said, for my sake I fix it05:40
Kamionassuming you haven't given write permissions to any of the directories in SECURE_PATH05:40
pittiwell, I think this is a realatively safe assumption05:40
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azeemlamont_r: do you guys have sbuild packages for ubuntu up somewhere?06:02
lamont_razeem: the sbuild that we're using is almost identical to debian's, and I've been pushing diffs to neuro as I make changes.06:06
lamont_rfrankly, some of the changes make no sense for debian, etc.06:06
azeemok, so where should I hack sbuild so that it accepts warty as distribution? Or is this not possible?06:07
lamont_roh, that diff...06:07
lamont_rsearch for 'Bad distrib' in the file somewhere around line 57606:08
lamont_rmake it look like this...06:08
lamont_r                $main::distribution = "unstable" if $main::distribution eq "u";06:08
lamont_r                #die "Bad distribution\n"06:08
lamont_r                #       if !isin($main::distribution, keys(%main::dist_order));06:08
lamont_rfor extra credit, go down to after the closing brace after "Unknown option", and add:06:09
lamont_rdie "Need distribution\n" if $main::distribution eq "unstable";06:09
m_tthewfor extra *extra* credit, rewrite it in python.06:11
lamont_rm_tthew: actually, there's an even more invasive rewrite in progress06:11
Kamionor decent perl06:11
azeemlamont_r: other than the multibuild effort?06:12
m_tthewlamont_r: nice06:12
lamont_rsadly, the basic architectural design is completely different than debians, sadly06:13
azeemI had to touch /var/lib/sbuild/source-dependencies-warty as well, but maybe that's because I was using the packaged version of sbuild06:14
infinitylamont_r If you just pull "unstable" out of main::dist_order, then it'll happily die.06:14
infinitylamont_r : And put in the ubuntu dists too.06:14
danielshot air on lists doesn't count as a rewrite06:14
lamont_ractually, I just changed it to require a dist, and never mind adding each new chroot I want to have...06:15
lamont_rmuch simpler to force me to type -dfoo06:15
lamont_ractually, the version on my personal machine is slightly different - -dunstable still works.. :-)06:16
infinityI'd say that main::dist_order should be overridable in .sbuildrc06:16
danielsinfinity: yes06:16
lamont_rgiven that the if statement there is the only place it's used in sbuild, I'd say it should just be deleted.....06:16
azeemwill you submit a patch to debootstrap so it is possible to bootstrap Ubuntu from Debian? (in case you haven't already)06:17
mirakisn't the kernel 2.6 responsible of sound problems ?06:18
lamont_razeem: good question for Kamion, I expect...06:18
mirakI have heard that on #debian06:18
lamont_rit's not exactly a debian bug that it lacks debootstrap scripts for other distros....06:18
mirakin fact when I rip a audio cd, I got a empty wav file06:19
azeemlamont_r: not a bug, but wishlist :)06:19
infinitylamont_r : No, but a wishlish request, certainly.06:19
mirakbut the size is good06:19
azeemmirak: saying that 2.6 is broken WRT sound is a rather broad statement06:19
infinitylamont_r : If I could debootstrap warty dists from my sid machine, it'd make making chroots and playing aroiund that much simpler.06:19
mirakazeem: what does meean broad statement06:19
=== infinity decides to go back to napping.
lamont_runderstood... one could fetch the warty* files from ubuntu's debootstrap, of course.06:20
infinityOh, of course.06:20
lamont_ra wishlist would make sense06:20
azeemLog for successful build of synce-serial_0.9.0-1 (dist=warty)06:20
azeemof course, I just figured out that synce-serial is in universe and the guy on -users probably doesn't have that06:20
mirakazeem: what means "broad statement" ?06:21
azeemmirak: it means: it is not specific enough06:21
azeemmirak: surely sound did work on Linux-2.6 and still does for most users06:21
mirakazeem: yet I can't find a reason why I can't hear audio CD sound06:22
mirakthis doesn't makes sens06:22
mirakI mean that's numeric data06:22
azeemmirak: did you try #ubuntu?06:22
mirakif I can read a normal cd06:22
Kamionazeem: aj has copies of our debootstrap packages, if he wants to do so06:22
mirakazeem: I asked on every linux channel lol06:23
mirakazeem: I have heard somebody else with this problem06:23
azeemmirak: I can't help you06:23
azeemKamion: ah, ok06:23
lamont_rmirak: the correct place for support questions is #ubuntu, this channel would be the right place to discuss your patch for fixing it...06:23
mirakazeem: I ask in dev section, because maybe, there is more "competent" people on this subject06:23
azeemmirak: the same people are also in #ubuntu06:23
azeemwell, some of them at least06:24
mirakazeem: ok06:24
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Kamionmirak: competent people who'll just retreat somewhere else if they don't have some peace away from support questions, though :)06:24
Kamionwe used to use #ubuntu as our development channel, before the preview ...06:25
mirakKamion: don't, I ask here, because it seems more an internal problem than a usage problem, if you see what I mean. but well I will continue to search everywhere06:26
mirakbut not here :)06:26
rcaskeyyou know, reading debian release news these days just doesn't have the same zing as it did before ubuntu06:35
azeemwhat's "zing"?06:37
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Kamionanyone want to claim understanding of what's needed to fix #3770 in a udev world?06:55
danielsKamion: fwiw, I'm pretty sure I've nailed the UTF-8 bug in libX1106:58
danielsKamion: rebuild of that pending, right after this security build of x.org finishes ...06:58
pittiKamion: is this really an udev problem? this rather sounds as if the alsa modules are not loaded06:58
Kamionpitti: oh, I'm not suggesting it's a udev problem06:59
pittiCan somebody please proofread https://chinstrap.warthogs.hbd.com/~pitti/usn-sudo.txt ? Thanks in advance07:03
pittiKamion: #3770: it seems that the reporter was not using udev at all; so maybe it's just NOTWARTY?07:04
Kamionpitti: "non-fully qualified" => "non-fully-qualified", I'd say; otherwise fine07:05
lamont_rpitti: you forgot to say "for this and other reasons, one should not use a shell script that runs with elevated privileges." :-)07:05
Kamionpitti: well, it's explicitly when upgrading from sarge, which we want to support in hoary07:05
KamionI've asked him if he installed udev and rebooted07:05
pittiKamion: the bug report contains too little information to pinpoint the problem; but udev should solve it07:06
pittiKamion: will upgrades from sarge to Hoary install udev?07:06
Kamionif you install ubuntu-base, yes07:06
Kamionassuming he has the alsa modules loaded ...07:06
pittiof course07:07
pittibut at least for me Sarge's hotplug should load the modules as well07:07
Kamionyes, true07:08
pittiso probably we should write "ubuntu-base" in very big letters into the upgrading instructions :-)07:09
pittioh, gotta go... bye everybody07:09
amulamont_r: so what we'll do ? do you setup and test the new buildsys ?  07:09
lamont_rdamn caps07:09
amucool, than just download the latest morphix-tree 07:10
lamont_ramu: could you send me an email with an rsync command? :-)07:11
lamont_ror must I mirror it the painful way?07:11
amuwget rocks ;) the other way is, ask alex for an acc   07:12
Kamionubuntu-base> I thought we already did ...07:14
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RubenVupdating sed just killed my apt08:02
m_tthewRubenV : see topic08:03
RubenVaha :)08:03
RubenVah well, this means no updates08:03
RubenV-> more time for study08:04
RubenVyou should break stuff more often :)08:04
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usual cp /usr/share/info/sed.info-1.gz /usr/share/info/sed.info.gz08:05
usualfix for sed08:05
usualaccording to #debian08:05
usualahh it works08:05
infinitysyncing with incoming would work too.08:05
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Keybukelmo: Package base version not found: ghfaxviewer (0.22.0-4)08:14
mwhIm having some trouble getting java-applets going with mozilla-firefox, but not with mozilla and epiphany, anyone heard about this problem before=?08:14
Keybukhmm... I really don't know what to do about that08:14
Keybuks/^elmo/E/ heh08:14
Keybuksnapshot never archived ghfaxviewer_0.22.0-408:14
Keybuk E: Package base version not found: lightspeed (1.2-4)08:18
Keybukanother one too08:18
kylemsed fixed would be nice... 8)08:32
Kamionit'll happen, duded08:32
amuyep ;)08:34
=== kylem just hacks var/lib/dpkg/info/sed and grumbles about ubuntu maintainers. 8)
infinitykylem : Just install the debian package from incoming on ubuntu.  Sheesh. :)08:35
kylem<- lazy08:36
Kamionwasn't an Ubuntu maintainer who broke it ...08:36
kylemwho do i castrate?08:37
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Kamionwell, Clint broke it in Debian, but it worked for him on sparc; it was a "breaks on buildds" issue08:37
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mxpxpodcould someone with a cd burner test something for me on hoary?08:57
ironwolfwhatcha need mxpxpod?09:07
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mxpxpodironwolf: could you download coaster's latest release, compile and run it to make sure it works on hoary?09:09
mxpxpodironwolf: I'm not willing to upgrade to hoary if it's going to impede coaster development09:09
mxpxpodironwolf: http://www.coaster-burn.org/files/coaster/coaster-0.1.2.tar.gz09:11
ironwolfmspxpod: what's coaster do?09:13
mxpxpodironwolf: write cd's... data-only for now09:14
ironwolfmxpxpod: isn't that just apt-get install coaster ?09:15
mxpxpodironwolf: I don't think it's in hoary yet....09:15
lupus_E: Couldn't find package coaster09:15
mxpxpodironwolf and lupus_: it's not in hoary/warty... it's a project I'm working on09:17
ironwolfmxpxpod: compiling now....09:18
mxpxpodironwolf: awesome09:18
mxpxpodironwolf: thanks for doing this09:19
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fabbionedoes anybody know what provides -ldml ?09:24
=== lamont_r beats xorg
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fabbionelamont_r: what's the problem now? ;)09:26
lamont_rxorg is d-w libglide3-dev, which fails to install (missing xorg009:27
fabbionelibglide3-dev (>= 2002.04.10-7) [alpha amd64 i386 ia64] 09:27
lamont_ron ia6409:28
fabbionebut libglide3 cannot know about xorg... if there is no xorg09:28
fabbioneit would pull in xfree86 build-deps09:28
lamont_r  libglide3: Depends: libx11-6 but it is not installable or09:28
lamont_r                      xlibs (> 4.1.0) but it is not going to be installed09:28
lamont_r             Depends: libxext6 but it is not installable or09:28
lamont_r                      xlibs (> 4.1.0) but it is not going to be installed09:28
fabbioneE: Couldn't find package libglide3-dev09:28
fabbionethis is the last error you get09:29
lamont_rof course, once xfree86 finishes building...09:29
lamont_rcould just be a time thing09:29
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lamont_rlib64/libdlm.so.0                                           libs/libdlm009:29
fabbioneat what phase are you now?09:29
lamont_ris filling the archive09:30
fabbionemake sence09:30
fabbionelvm2 is missing a build dep09:30
fabbioneon libdlm009:31
fabbioneyeah that one09:31
fabbioneok.. bug has been reported already09:32
fabbionethis is interesting :-)09:32
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fabbione ./main/binary-sparc/: New 1314kB 1129 files 496MB 11s09:36
fabbione ./main/source/: 2 pkgs in 0s09:36
fabbionei love this :P09:36
fabbionelamont_r: unknown/silo_1.4.8-1 [-:uncompiled] 09:37
fabbionewhat was the trick to switch from unknown to whatever it really is?09:38
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lamont_rfabbione: overrides file, or fix the ^*_& package09:39
=== spotter [~spotter@dyn-wireless-244-172.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #ubuntu-devel
fabbionelamont_r: ok :-)09:39
spotterseb128: the evolution panel problem isn't fixed09:39
spotterit now just references evolution-2.209:40
lamont_rfabbione: it09:40
spotterit should be just evolution09:40
lamont_rs an archive thing, not a buildd thing09:40
spotterwhat happens w/ evolution-2.409:40
seb128spotter: there is no evolution.desktop09:40
fabbionelamont_r: yes.. i just didn't bother to create an override file09:41
lamont_rme neither. :-)09:41
fabbionelamont_r: it was just to schedule it before other packages09:41
spotterseb128: there should be, and that should be what's in the panel by default09:41
spotterotherwise upgrades are going to be a bitch w/ each release09:41
lamont_rcould always shut down the buildd, take it, and then manually sbuild it before starting back up the buildd... :-p09:42
seb128spotter: not sure09:42
fabbionelamont_r: ehehe09:42
fabbionelamont_r: that's cheating :P09:42
spotterjust my not so humble opinion, take it as you will.09:42
lamont_rfabbione: nah - that's _EFFICIENCY_ :-)09:42
spotterseb128: I'm just annoyed w/ it as its constantly crashing on me09:42
fabbionetime to get some food09:43
fabbionethanks lamont09:43
fabbionelater fellas09:43
seb128spotter: the problem is the way to handle the // installation of differents version of evolution09:43
lamont_rnote also that our wanna-build isn't necessarily getting universe/multiverse (if present) after main, even.  - the DC wanna-build has the config to do that09:43
seb128spotter: like 1.4 and 1.5 were // installable, so have only one .desktop is not optimal09:43
spotterseb128: the way I view it09:44
spotterevolution.desktop == default09:44
spotteri.e. install 209:44
spotterevolution-2.2, which is in menu and autobuilt09:44
spotternever mind09:44
spotterdebian seems to handle it fine09:45
seb128debian doesn't have a launcher in the panel :p09:45
spotterdefault evo (2.0) installs as evolution09:45
seb128same here 09:45
spotterseb128: so defualt evolution.desktop should be what ever is your default09:45
spotterif you want another evo installed, it installs a versioned evo09:45
spotteri.e. on my laptop b4 it died I had 2.0 and 2.2 runnable09:46
seb128you want to set an alternative on the desktop file ?09:46
spotterno alternative09:46
seb128there is no other way to have the same file in 2 packages09:46
spotterwhy do you need the same file in 2 packages?09:46
spotterare there 2 evo's installable in ubuntu?09:46
seb128not atm, but that could happen09:46
spotterok, so you just control which is considered default09:47
spotterif user wants to use non default, that's their choice09:47
seb128how do you set the default ?09:47
spotteryou do09:47
spotteraka ubuntu09:47
seb128ie: 1.4 and 1.5 .. 1.4 has the evolution.desktop09:47
spotteryes, as that was stable09:47
seb128and then 1.5 -> 2.0 and 2.0 should have the .desktop09:47
spotterwhen 1.5 went stable to 2.0, 1.4 disappeared09:47
spotteri.e. there's evolution and evolution-unstable (aka evolution2.2)09:48
seb128yeah, could be in this way09:48
fabbionelamont_r: yes i know. i configured only main atm09:48
seb128much easy to just change the panel link :)09:48
fabbione(food isn't ready yet)09:48
lamont_rfabbione: yeah09:48
lamont_ria64 buildd's are into universe09:48
seb128spotter: what's the big deal to have the default in the panel ?09:48
spotterseb128: but sucks for users ugrading who dont know and just know after an upgrade it doesnt work anymore09:48
fabbionelamont_r: as i was writing yesterday at the meeting, i don't have enough processing power for universe09:49
spotterseb128: when users upgrade from warty to hoary, their evolution panel icon wont work anymore09:49
seb128spotter: yeah, but hoary is a devel branch, don't worry it'll be fine before the release whatever is the fix09:49
spotterunsure it's possible to fix w/o ugliness09:49
spotterwhat I'm proposing is a way to think about this for the future09:50
spotterno .desktop entry should have a versioned filename09:50
seb128some people want 2.1 in the panel/menu09:50
seb128why not having both version here if both version are installable in // ?09:51
spotterusers can still do that09:51
fabbionelamont_r: but if the port will be accepted, Mark will buy buildds09:51
fabbioneok now food is ready09:51
spotterbut ubuntu's supported is just one09:51
fabbionebye :-)09:51
spotteri.e. does ubuntu support courier?09:51
spottereven though that can be installed09:51
lamont_rfabbione: right09:51
spotterthey support postfix09:51
Keybukjdub: Good Morning.  Today is Boomtime, the 30th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3170.  You have no new messages.  You have no appointments.09:57
lamont_rToday is Sweetmorn, the 29th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 317009:58
lamont_rKeybuk: wassup with your calendar?09:58
Keybuklamont_r: it's the 17th today ...09:58
lamont_rsame here09:58
Keybukactually, for jdub it's the 18th09:58
makopeople are totally unjustified in calling ubuntu the "debian-based distro with the funny name"10:00
Keybuk"Debian" itself is a pretty funny name, when you think about it10:03
Keybukpeople are just used to it10:03
makoKeybuk: not nearly as funny as beernix :)10:03
makoor "penguin sleuth"10:03
KeybukIn fact, Linux is reasonably silly10:03
Keybuk(and has equal problems with people pronouncing it correctly :p)10:04
makoright, i think ubuntu belongs in the class of debian and linux10:04
makobasically whimsical sounding names that gain a meaning and seem natural later for the vast majority of people10:04
Keybukat least "Ubuntu" is actually a word in a widely-spoken language10:04
makoi have now seen ubuntu spelled with every possible vowel in the last letter10:04
makojdub: compared to cornish, sure10:04
Keybukof course, they could be referring to "Warty Warthog" as the funny name10:04
Keybukand they've got us by both balls, there10:05
makolinux loco!10:05
makoor, BIG LINUX10:05
mako(all caps)10:05
KeybukFAT LINUX!10:06
makoyeah, they're just inviting a BIGGER LINUX with that name10:06
spottermako: did you ever find a place to host that event you asked the acm about?10:06
makospotter: nope, it was too bad10:06
makospotter: it was super last minute10:06
makospotter: it was a bad combination of me just moving here and it being last minute10:06
spotterso it wasn't held?10:06
makospotter: no organized talk10:07
spotterso you live at the med school?10:07
makospotter: yep10:07
spottergot to love the heights10:07
makospotter: you are at columbia?10:07
=== spotter points mako to /whois shaya
=== spotter is now known as shaya
shayathat would work now10:08
makotrue enough, morningside?10:08
shayathat's where school is, home is washington10:08
makoyou coming tonight?10:08
makoshaya: dc or state?10:08
makook, i'm from washington STATE, living in washington HEIGHTS10:08
makoi do love washington heights10:09
makoyou coming to the talk tonight?10:09
shayai'm from dc suburbs, spent summer in the state working for the man10:09
makoshaya: www.nylug.org10:10
shayayes, but you go to restaurants10:10
shayaproblematic for me10:10
makoshaya: it may be too late to rsvp for their (slightly authoritarian) rsvp system10:11
shayait is10:11
shayasaw your blog post10:11
shayait was closed when you posted it10:11
makothere is this "stammtisch" thing10:11
shayasounds like a yiddish word10:11
makoat 8:30.. keysigning and hanging out in the bar across the street10:11
makolast monght i missed the meeting but just went to the hang-out10:12
makolast month even10:12
=== shaya points to why food is a problem
shayacome dressed like that and I wouldn't fit in :)10:12
makoi think it would be fine10:13
makobut if you don't make it tonight, we can get together some other time if you'd like10:14
makothere is a talk at the morningside campus i'm going to tomorrow on free software stuff10:14
=== Cube-ness [~james@170-215-49-81.dsl2.elk.ca.frontiernet.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
seb128jdub: here ?10:30
Cube-nessany estimation on when sed will be fixed?10:34
Cube-nesshehe.. cool10:38
sivangCube-ness :  Quick workaround for the sed problem in hoary: edit /var/lib/dpkg/info/sed.postinst as root, add "exit 0" in the second line...10:40
=== calc [~ccheney@ip70-185-2-220.ma.dl.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
ironwolfor add warty to sources.list and apt-get install sed/warty ;)10:42
hornbecksivang: Under the #! /bin/sh -e?10:46
hornbeckor under pkg=sed10:46
sivangunder pkg=sed,10:46
sivangworked for me10:46
hornbeckok thanks10:46
hornbeckthat would be the fourth line10:47
hornbecksivang: thanks that just helped me :-)10:47
sivanghornbeck : no prob.10:48
=== carlos [~carlos@69.Red-80-33-181.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
seb128elmo_away: gpdf sync please10:52
Keybuk     ^^^^10:55
KeybukIRC is a lossy protocol, you should probably IM him or send him a mail :p10:56
lamont_rKeybuk: but elmo_away is all seeing. :-)10:56
lamont_ralthough elmo_away may be his home instance, and that'll be really slow to respond... :(10:57
KeybukI fear anyone who can keep up with scrollback these days11:00
KeybukI know elmo's bitched in the past about people leaving messages on channel that he's never seen11:00
lamont_rit's good for messages that you don't really care if they get, but not good for critical messages (those I send a follow-up email for..)11:01
Cube-nessquestion about sound in hoary.. while my laptop works fine, this machine makes me kill esd in order for oss sound to work.. is there a better fix?11:04
KeybukCube-ness: 1) ask in #ubuntu   2) use esd instead of oss sound11:05
Cube-nesswell, a lot of apps "just use" oss11:06
Cube-nessi asked here because i assumed folks in devel would be more familiar with hoary at this point in time11:06
lamont_rCube-ness: #ubuntu has _lots_ of devel folks11:07
Cube-nessdont worry, i am not gonn aflood his place with general usage questions.. hehe11:07
lamont_r-devel is for discussing code changes11:07
KeybukCube-ness: developers hang out on #ubuntu too ... this channel is for discussion about development, not a place to find the developers11:07
Keybukand the truth is even the developers aren't all-knowing, sometimes a fellow user will have a much better suggestion11:08
=== daniels [~daniels@george.kkhotels.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-devel
amulamont_r: #3046 should i close it ?   11:14
Keybuklamont_r: how far along is it? :p11:15
lamont_rKeybuk: waiting for sync from debian11:16
lamont_ramu: I expect11:17
lamont_rwith comments, of course.11:17
jdubseb128: hey hey hey11:17
Keybukftp.debian.org still only has 4.1.2-411:17
lamont_rlike "mirroring the latest packages from morphix and running the script in the chroot as non-root, but allowed sbuild" type commnets11:17
lamont_rKeybuk: the buggy version is 4.1.2-211:17
Keybukso when did -3 or -4 pop into unstable?11:18
Keybuktonight's dinstall run?11:18
amulamont_r: thats another one :) he asked about QTparted on the liveCD :)  11:18
lamont_rKeybuk: yes11:19
amujust look to #3046  11:19
Keybukelmo's sync runs "daily" I think ... so we should've seen that by now, no?11:19
lamont_rit stalls until after the debian mirrors have time to finish syncing the pulse.11:20
seb128jdub: why not adding a conflict between gamin and fam ?11:20
lamont_rhence "any time now"...11:20
lamont_rnot sure when the sync script runs11:20
Keybukhmm, last run I see was 22:1211:20
KeybukJackass HTTP Time :p11:20
lamont_rjht.  got it.11:20
lamont_rso 8 min ago11:20
KeybukLast-Modified: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:12:20 GMT11:21
Keybuk(on the file it spits for mom)11:21
jdubseb128: because the packaging death squad would have my head :)11:22
Keybukjdub: can you install them both at the same time?11:23
seb128jdub: what's the problem with the conflict ? For the moment we only get users with broken system because they have both installed11:23
jdubKeybuk: yes11:23
jdubseb128: no, they only get a broken system if they have fam+libgamin11:23
Keybukif you install them both at the same time, can apps use one and other apps use the other?11:23
jdubKeybuk: no11:23
jdubKeybuk: libgamin + fam == broken11:23
Keybukwhy is it broken?11:24
jdubbecause they don't talk to each other correctly11:24
Keybukdoes libgamin not depend on gamin?11:24
seb128jdub: fam+gamin with gamin->libgamin0 and conflicts on libfam... you get fam+gamin+libgamin11:24
jdublibgamin recommends gamin11:24
seb128yeah, but they install gamin, get libgamin0 but fam is not removed11:24
Keybukif you have libgamin, gamin and fam installed -- is it broken?11:24
seb128and BOUM11:24
jdubseb128: fam+gamin+libgamin ought to work...?11:24
seb128jdub: dunno if it "ought" but it doesn't11:25
jdubKeybuk: if you have libgamin and fam, that is broken to start with11:25
seb128according to #ubuntu11:25
jdubseb128: ok11:25
Keybukjdub: but they won't get gamin installed anyway, because the dependency isn't strong enough *shrug*11:25
jdubKeybuk: yes.11:25
seb128but what's the problem with the conflict between gamin and fam ?11:25
Keybukseb128: they don't conflict.11:26
jdubseb128: because by definition of the rules, they don't actually 'conflict'11:26
Keybukthey just happen to break each other.11:26
shayajdub: try installing kde11:26
seb128Keybuk: gamin depends on libgamin0 and gamin+libgamin0+fam=broken ... seems to be a conflict case for me11:26
shayait's in universe, but a pita to install from aptitude11:26
Keybukseb128: no, that's not a conflict.11:26
jdubshaya: why?11:26
shayait complains for some reason11:26
Keybukconflict is "you must utterly remove this package before you even unpack me"11:26
seb128Keybuk: I've no problem to use a conflit to avoid breakages :p11:27
shayatry installing konq frm aptitude and you'll see11:27
jdubshaya: why should i try installing it? :)11:27
shayadont install it11:27
shayajust try in aptitude11:27
jdubshaya: i don't use aptitude, we don't support kde...11:27
Keybukseb128: and you're one of the primary reasons that apt and dpkg sometimes hang or fuck up doing upgrades :p11:27
lamont_rkeybuk: if it synced at :12, then it should show in w-b in about 6 min, and be in the archive in 3611:27
shayajdub: true, but you do provide it in universe11:27
seb128jdub: they'll get me first apparently :p11:27
=== seb128 runs
shayaone would think stuff in universe should be installable11:27
jdubshaya: universe == unsupported -> if there are bugs, they're not on my priority list11:28
shayathat's a different story11:28
seb128Keybuk: right ... but what's the right solution in this case ? I'm not forcing an upgrade this time :)11:28
Keybukwhat's in universe, built.  there's no other guarantees11:28
shayai had no interest in kde, just ran into it as needed kde-dev stuff to build redhat-artwork11:28
lamont_rshaya: if there's something in universe that is not built or not installable, we welcome patches....11:28
shayawhat can I say, I like bluecurve11:29
lamont_rshaya: likewise, if it's circular build-deps holding it up, please let me know...11:29
jdubseb128: i'll double-check with fam/gamin/libgamin11:29
Keybukseb128: someone actually sitting down and working out what's wrong, would be a good start11:29
lamont_rkde is known to be b0rked on ppc, but is there on i386/amd6411:29
shayalamont: I was really confused.  aptitude refused to install it, but a plain apt-get install worked fine (without removing anything)11:29
lamont_rinteresting - could be a recommended package that's not installable, then11:29
Keybukshaya: aptitude does that sometimes ... it's a way11:29
seb128Keybuk,jdub: is there any interest to get gamin AND fam installed ?11:29
lamont_raptitude (IIRC) likes to install recommended packages by default11:30
lamont_rapt-get doesn't.11:30
Keybukwhich is seeded?  fam or gamin?11:30
shayahere's something else weird11:30
shayafor konqueror11:30
shayaDepnds: ....  kfind11:30
jdubseb128: no11:30
jdubKeybuk: gamin11:30
Keybukjdub: are either libgamin or libfam seeded?11:31
shayanot anymore11:31
Keybukdoes gamin depend on libgamin?11:31
jdubKeybuk: don't think so11:31
=== mxpxpod [~bryan@mxpxpod.user] has left #ubuntu-devel ["later.."]
jdubif you have ubuntu-desktop, you'll get gamin11:31
Keybukso anyone with ubuntu-desktop has gamin and libgamin11:31
jdubbut if you upgrade without ubuntu-desktop, you only get libgamin11:32
jdubi know that libgamin+fam is utterly b0rk11:32
Keybuklibgamin functionally-replaces libfam, yes ?11:32
jdubi'm just about to test libgamin+gamin+fam11:32
jdubit's a binary compatible subset11:32
Keybukdoes gamin functionally-replace fam?11:32
jdubroughly, but not really :)11:32
seb128jdub: the trashapplet (at least) is broken with this according to some user11:32
Keybukdo applications depend on libgamin?11:33
jdubgam_server is a user daemon11:33
Keybukor do they depend on "something that provides libfam"11:33
jdubfam is a global daemon, which can communicate to the outside world, too11:33
jdubatm, gnome-vfs depends on either11:33
Keybukis libgamin useful without gamin?11:34
jdubto let your program link, sure :)11:35
Keybukthat's not what I asked11:35
jdubbut it survives without gamin11:35
Keybukis there any reason to have libgamin installed without gamin?11:35
jdubgenerally no11:35
jdubbut it depends if you're smoking debian crack or not11:35
Keybukthen why doesn't it depend on gamin?  was somebody getting wishy-washy about dependencies? :p11:35
jdubbecause it doesn't strictly depend on gamin11:36
Keybuk"it absolutely critically needs this package, but you *might not* use that functionality, so it's just a Recommends"11:36
jdubsame way that libfam doesn't strictly depend on fam11:36
jdubi just explained that it doesn't absolutely critically need the package11:36
Keybuklibgamin works without gamin?11:36
Keybukyou can use its functionality without gamin installed?11:36
jdub09:35 < jdub> to let your program link, sure :)11:36
jdub09:35 < jdub> but it survives without gamin11:36
jdubexactly the same as the libfam/fam relationship11:37
Keybukso an application can use libgamin without gamin installed?11:37
jdubit will link, yes11:37
KeybukI didn't ask whether it'd link :op11:37
jdubthat's all it does, dude11:38
jdub"using" libgamin is linking to it11:38
Keybukso what does libgamin do?!11:38
jdublibgamin talks to gamin11:38
jdubthat's what it does11:38
jdubsoftware links to libgamin11:38
Keybuksure, you call functions in libgamin to use gamin?11:38
Keybukso if you use libgamin, you *need* gamin installed?11:38
jdub09:36 < jdub> 09:35 < jdub> but it survives without gamin11:38
jdub09:37 < jdub> exactly the same as the libfam/fam relationship11:38
Keybuklibgamin should depend on gamin11:38
Keybuklibfam should depend on fam11:39
Keybuklibfam and libgamin functionally-replace each other11:39
Keybukproblem solved11:39
lamont_rjdub: so when do we get a good gnome audio burner?? huh? huh? huh???11:39
Keybukif you weren't being so wishy-washy-liberal about your dependencies11:39
jdubi've done what was done with fam11:39
ironwolflamont_r: I'm working on it.11:39
Keybuk"you don't *need* to eat your dinner ... you could just look at it, sure you'll die, but you don't *need* to eat"11:39
jdubbecause, in debian mode, this is not a dependency11:39
Keybukit so is11:39
KeybukI'd make those dependencies in Debian11:39
Keybukthere are far too many Recommends, again especially in the GNOME and KDE camps, which should be Depends.11:40
jdublamont_r: coaster's doing something about it, which we may get in hoary11:40
Keybukok, so if you don't need gamin, it doesn't matter that it breaks :p11:40
=== carlos [~carlos@69.Red-80-33-181.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel
jdubthat's not what breaks11:41
jdubif you'd been listening11:41
seb128jdub: I don't get the problem with nautilus beeing slow without gamin ... which part is slowing it ?11:41
Keybuk  The `Depends' field should be used if the depended-on package is11:41
Keybuk  required for the depending package to provide a significant11:41
Keybuk  amount of functionality.11:41
jdubseb128: i'll figure out what's going on with libgamin/fam/gamin, and get back to you11:41
seb128jdub: ie: is it a nautilus or gamin issue ?11:41
seb128jdub: ok, thanks11:42
jdubseb128: libgamin issue, i believe11:42
KeybukI'm not trying to be a pain here, I'm actually trying to help11:42
seb128ok, I think so, nautilus has not changed and it used to work fine with fam11:42
Keybukconflicting something as low-down in the chain as fam could result in APT/dpkg needing to deinstall half the packages just to install gamin11:42
seb128speaking about nautilus I've tested the bonobo-slay branch today, it's almost fully working :)11:42
jdubseb128: rocking :-)11:43
jdubseb128: was going to ask ;)11:43
jdubit's going to be sweet11:43
Keybukconflicts are not fluffy, they are brutal11:43
Keybukgamin could Conflict&Replace&Provide fam11:44
Keybukor you could up the Recommends to Dependencies, so force fam's removal that way11:44
seb128how that forces the removal ?11:45
seb128<Keybuk> or you could up the Recommends to Dependencies, so force fam's removal that way11:46
Keybukgamin is seeded, so would be installed as a dependency of ubuntu-desktop11:46
seb128you still need a Conflicts right ?11:46
Keybuklibgamin0 would be installed as a dependency of gamin11:46
Keybuklibfam0 would be removed as a Conflict&Replace&Provide of libgamin011:46
Keybukfam would be removed as it depends on libfam011:46
seb128ok, you need the Conflict&Replace&Provide of libgamin011:46
sivangseb128 : could you please apply the fix to yelp (#3557) so doc team people could use yelp on hoary? or do you prefer we'd just fetch the package from warty?11:46
Keybukno Conflict.11:46
Keybuk(Conflict&Replace&Provide is magic, it's not an ordinary Conflict)11:47
seb128Keybuk: better to Replaces&Provide too than only Conflict ?11:47
seb128oh ok11:47
Keybukseb128: hell yes.11:47
seb128I'll remember that for the next time :)11:47
=== elmo [~james@george.kkhotels.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-devel
KeybukConflicts & Replaces means "absolutely replaces the functionality of"11:47
KeybukConflicts: foo11:48
Keybukmeans that you must prerm, remove and postrm 'foo' (utterly remove) before you even *unpack* the package11:49
Keybukgiven that APT/dpkg generally unpack everything at once, this is bad11:49
KeybukConflicts: foo11:49
KeybukReplaces: foo11:49
KeybukProvides: foo11:49
Keybukis a "total replacement for foo", it can be safely swapped at any point11:49
sivangseb128 : (I remember you told me that you might prefer to wait for 2.10 :)11:50
seb128hum ok, good to know11:51
seb128Keybuk: thanks :)11:51
seb128sivang: I was hoppy for a 2.9.2 upstream soon in fact, but if somebody need it I'll apply the patch tomorrow11:51
Keybukbut that's a per-package thing... Provides: foo (<< 1.2) is illegal :p11:52
sivangseb128 : thank you!11:52
seb128usually I only use Replaces/Provides for name changes11:52
seb128and brutal Conflict for something like fam/gamin11:52
seb128I'll try to think about this next time :)11:53
KeybukConflict on its own means one thing, and one thing only.  The two packages contain a file of the same name.11:53
KeybukThat's it.11:53
KeybukUsing it for *anything* else, will produce bad behaviour.11:53
seb128I used to use that as a "can't work together"11:54
jdubi did a c/r/p for polypaudio11:54
jdubbecause it has an esd file in it :)11:54
jduband really does functionally c/r/p esound11:54
Keybukjdub: yeah, I'd be happy if gamin c/r/p fam11:54
Keybukseb128: that's a *really* bad thing to do, because conflicts act before unpacking -- they're as evil as pre-depends11:55
KeybukI'm going to RSN add "Breaks" to dpkg -- which is a field for "doesn't play well together"11:55
seb128yeah, I don't really know how apt internals work, thanks for the explanations11:58
jdubso the consensus is c/r/p fam in gamin?11:58
seb128somebody should write a "why Conflicts is bad" document, I'm sure that a lot of the maintainers don't know a lot about how apt handle that :)11:59

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