| lupus_ | is there a spec from freedesktop.org | 12:04 |
|---|---|---|
| daniels | what sort of psec? | 12:04 |
| lupus_ | where to save favourites, my documents, my music | 12:05 |
| === spotter [~spotter@dyn-160-39-247-29.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| spotter | how does one change the ubuntu locale, so that I get color instead of colour | 12:05 |
| daniels | lupus_: no | 12:05 |
| lupus_ | I was thinking of using .Documents/ and let gnome-vfs for example create my documents or in my language mijn documten | 12:06 |
| lupus_ | to it | 12:06 |
| lupus_ | so you can store somewhere and the name of the location is translatable since it is handled by gnome-vfs | 12:07 |
| jdub | lupus_: the design proposed by alex will mean translated names in the gui, normal names on the filesystem | 12:09 |
| jdub | not dot directories, either | 12:09 |
| jdub | this is the same way os x does it | 12:09 |
| lupus_ | where is this method discribed? | 12:10 |
| jdub | o don't think there's a single document | 12:10 |
| jdub | s/^o/i | 12:10 |
| lupus_ | couldn't that design be used for downloads instead of desktop? | 12:11 |
| jdub | no, that's a different problem | 12:13 |
| jdub | the downloads stuff is a matter of choosing a good location | 12:14 |
| jdub | the translation stuff is just a way of seeing what's on disk differently | 12:14 |
| robertj | jdub: is synaptic coming out of the Computer menu when gnome-app-install gets done? | 12:30 |
| jdub | robertj: most likely | 12:31 |
| lupus_ | jdub, http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=8888 I think this will interest you ( Reducing Fedora Boot Time ) | 12:38 |
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| jdub | lupus_: mmm, posted links to ubuntu-devel previously :) | 12:42 |
| lupus_ | :) I hadn't openened the png's so I thought those where new :) | 12:44 |
| amu | n8 | 12:50 |
| === Matt| [~Matt|@81-178-88-128.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| Keybuk | * Creating copy of debian gaim | 12:58 |
| Keybuk | * Considering public_html/ongoing-merge/gaim/gaim_debian.patch | 12:58 |
| Keybuk | - 1 patch hunks dropped | 12:58 |
| Keybuk | * Creating copy of ubuntu gaim | 12:58 |
| Keybuk | * Considering public_html/ongoing-merge/gaim/gaim_ubuntu.patch | 12:58 |
| Keybuk | - All patch hunks applied | 12:58 |
| Keybuk | * Using result of applying ubuntu patch | 12:58 |
| Keybuk | \o/ | 12:58 |
| Keybuk | I found one | 12:58 |
| Keybuk | (invert the "result of applying X patch" bit -- it's the wrong way round) | 12:58 |
| daniels | nice | 12:58 |
| Keybuk | actually, sorry, it's the "Creating copy of X gaim" that's the wrong way round | 12:59 |
| Keybuk | * Creating copy of ubuntu gaim | 01:00 |
| Keybuk | * Considering public_html/ongoing-merge/gaim/gaim_debian.patch | 01:00 |
| Keybuk | - 1 patch hunks dropped | 01:00 |
| Keybuk | * Creating copy of debian gaim | 01:00 |
| Keybuk | * Considering public_html/ongoing-merge/gaim/gaim_ubuntu.patch | 01:00 |
| Keybuk | - All patch hunks applied | 01:00 |
| Keybuk | * Using result of applying ubuntu patch | 01:00 |
| Keybuk | ... there, fixed | 01:00 |
| jdub | whee :) | 01:01 |
| thom | man, rendezvous in gaim is SO FUCKED | 01:03 |
| === Kamion builds a test debian-installer with udev-udeb, hotplug-udeb, new busybox-cvs, new rootskel | ||
| Kamion | ... and watches it crash and burn, oh dear | 01:07 |
| daniels | Kamion: nice! | 01:07 |
| daniels | heh | 01:07 |
| Keybuk | Kamion: work directories should be gone too <g> | 01:15 |
| Safari_Al | jdub, thanks for that email. | 01:16 |
| === nasdaq4088 [sdfsd@tkp-ip-nas-1-p141.telkom-ipnet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| robertj | Is partition resizing on the list for hoary? | 01:18 |
| Kamion | what kind of partition resizing? | 01:23 |
| lamont_r | Nov 17 00:25:41 buildd: Nothing to do -- sleeping 300 seconds | 01:26 |
| lamont_r | woot | 01:26 |
| lamont_r | now I'm stuck with fixing cyrus-sasl2 sometime. | 01:29 |
| lupus_ | ntfsresize is in sid installer, will also be in ubuntu? | 01:29 |
| Keybuk | lamont_r: want the new set of merges all assigned to you? if you're bored? :p | 01:29 |
| lamont_r | how big is the set? | 01:29 |
| Keybuk | 20 today | 01:30 |
| Keybuk | (this is actually about 5 days worth ... because some idiot commented out the "download the new needs-merged.txt file" line) | 01:31 |
| lamont_r | hehe | 01:34 |
| lamont_r | you could certainly assign them to me... | 01:34 |
| lamont_r | I'd eventually forgive you... | 01:37 |
| Kamion | lupus_: already is in hoary | 01:40 |
| robertj | Kamion: sorry, ahead of myself. On-the-fly NTFS resizing | 01:40 |
| === nasdaq4088 [sdfsd@tkp-ip-nas-1-p141.telkom-ipnet.co.za] has left #ubuntu-devel [] | ||
| Kamion | robertj: see what I said to lupus_ then | 01:41 |
| Kamion | robertj: download Array CD 1, try it out | 01:41 |
| robertj | Array? | 01:41 |
| Kamion | see ubuntu-users mailing list archives ... | 01:42 |
| Kamion | Subject: Array CD 1 | 01:42 |
| Keybuk | https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/buglist.cgi?bug_status=NEW&bug_severity=normal&field0-0-0=alias&type0-0-0=regexp&value0-0-0=%5Emerge- | 01:42 |
| Keybuk | ^ that's the list of new, unassigned "main" merges | 01:42 |
| robertj | ahh | 01:42 |
| Kamion | garrr, this installer crash is really hard to reproduce under any kind of controlled conditions | 01:44 |
| lupus_ | Kamion, I'm supprised ubuntu uses ntfs since redhat doesn't dare to touch it because of IP problems | 01:46 |
| Kamion | lupus_: reference for that claim? | 01:47 |
| Kamion | lupus_: we don't use it for anything important, it's just the stuff from the stock kernel | 01:47 |
| lupus_ | I know | 01:47 |
| lupus_ | but redhat does not include the ntfs kernel module | 01:47 |
| lupus_ | Why doesn't my Distro support NTFS? | 01:49 |
| lupus_ | Due to the uncertain legal status of using the NTFS driver, RedHat and Fedora have chosen to leave the driver out of their kernels. | 01:49 |
| lupus_ | http://linux-ntfs.sourceforge.net/rpm/about.html | 01:49 |
| Kamion | it's not something that's come up, and it doesn't seem to have bothered anyone in Debian either | 01:49 |
| lupus_ | so it ntfs is not only in non_US or something in debian? | 01:50 |
| Kamion | it's in the Debian stock kernels; non-US is essentially dead | 01:51 |
| lupus_ | ic :) | 01:51 |
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| lamont_r | elmo: I see you arrived safely | 01:53 |
| Keybuk | the George does seem to have utterly replaced the Claverley as the Canonical hotel now | 01:54 |
| jdub | thom: it should be fixed up to use howl | 01:55 |
| jdub | Keybuk: is it better? | 01:57 |
| lamont_r | is the George better? | 01:57 |
| thom | jdub: yes | 01:57 |
| thom | there's a launchpad sprint and a baz sprint? | 01:58 |
| Keybuk | I've not actually sampled the George yet | 01:58 |
| elmo | the George is so much better it's not funny | 02:00 |
| elmo | decent 2Mb internet, okay rooms, good food | 02:00 |
| Keybuk | but no cute staff :'( | 02:00 |
| elmo | dude, you just said you haven't been here yet? | 02:01 |
| jdub | elmo: ahr, that's reasonable | 02:01 |
| Keybuk | elmo: I asked others who rated them for me :) | 02:01 |
| elmo | oh, yes, now I remember kinnison complaining about the porter who bought up his special pillow :) | 02:02 |
| Keybuk | his "special" pillow :) | 02:05 |
| Kamion | do I want to know? | 02:07 |
| jdub | Kamion: waterproof. | 02:07 |
| Keybuk | it's the "special" sheeting you need to worry about | 02:08 |
| jdub | lamont_r: looked into the postfix disk access stuff? | 02:08 |
| lamont_r | huh? | 02:09 |
| lamont_r | vs laptop you mean? | 02:09 |
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| lamont_r | jdub? | 02:10 |
| Kamion | aaargh | 02:14 |
| Kamion | running /sbin/debian-installer under strace is sufficient to make the problems go away | 02:14 |
| === Kamion bangs head on desk | ||
| Kamion | jdub: could you add an xserver-xorg package to bugzilla please? | 02:16 |
| robertj | Kamion: you may need to proceed onto more intense debugging techniques such as banging hand in cabinet or, for the most challenging bugs, slamming nuts into car-door | 02:16 |
| === Kamion winces | ||
| lifeless | robertj: thats vicious. | 02:25 |
| lifeless | OW. | 02:25 |
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| === robertj [~robertj@66-188-77-153.cpe.ga.charter.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| robertj | Kamion: do you use bochs to debug d-i? | 02:48 |
| Kamion | robertj: no, I have plenty of real test hardware which is much faster | 02:48 |
| robertj | netboot? | 02:48 |
| Kamion | usually CD since that's the primary Ubuntu installation method | 02:49 |
| Kamion | occasionally netboot | 02:49 |
| robertj | hehe, how many times does a rewriter rewrite ;) | 02:49 |
| Kamion | not had enough coasters yet to worry about it | 02:49 |
| Kamion | maybe one or two out of I suppose many hundreds of writes | 02:50 |
| Kamion | the main disadvantage of using CDs is that they're slow | 02:51 |
| robertj | is there a way to take screenshots during the install? | 02:53 |
| lupus_ | can someone look if he also has this in /etc : drwxr-s--- 2 root dip 96 2004-11-15 22:37 chatscripts | 02:54 |
| Kamion | robertj: not without some kind of emulation | 02:55 |
| Kamion | erk, I think I'm hitting some kind of library reduction bug | 03:32 |
| Kamion | damnit | 03:32 |
| Kamion | adding /usr/bin/strace to the image is sufficient to make it work | 03:33 |
| === Kamion [~cjwatson@host81-153-126-219.range81-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| jdub | lamont: yeah | 03:57 |
| jdub | Kamion: sure | 03:57 |
| jdub | Kamion: done | 04:01 |
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| jdub | what's this mondo/mindi stuff? | 04:19 |
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| shaya | I think I discovered a regression in ubuntu's gnome over plain debian | 05:07 |
| shaya | in plain debian, if I click on the dvd device (with a dvd movie inside) it auto launches totem | 05:07 |
| shaya | in ubuntu, gnome-device-manager takes care of the initial load of totem (which doesn't work in debian) but every other open action, just opens the dvd in nautilus | 05:08 |
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| infinity | shaya : Is that a 2.6 versus 2.8 thing, or a Debian versus Ubuntu thing? | 06:43 |
| === steve [~steve@static24-72-64-205.regina.accesscomm.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| fabbione | morning guys | 07:06 |
| infinity | You've had reports via IRC? | 07:18 |
| infinity | On non-UML hosts? | 07:18 |
| infinity | (That .mem file is sparse on every non-UML host I've run across, and never large enough to be an issue) | 07:18 |
| infinity | fabbione : Also, this is clearly the wrong channel. Pretend I was typing in #debian-apache. | 07:19 |
| infinity | fabbione : I'm half asleep. :) | 07:19 |
| lifeless | mjg59: are there plans to get your kernel into hoary? (I'd love to have a prop ati driver package :)) | 07:19 |
| fabbione | infinity: don't worry :-), but yes.. i got the same report on a non uml host | 07:35 |
| === Manoj [~srivasta@host-12-107-230-171.dtccom.net] has left #ubuntu-devel ["No] | ||
| infinity | fabbione : Was the report "I ran out of space on /tmp" or was it "there's a giant file in /tmp and it scares me!"? | 07:41 |
| infinity | fabbione : Cause I've had a lot of the latter before (which goes away when you tell them "it's a spare file, retard") | 07:41 |
| infinity | s/spare/sparse/ | 07:41 |
| infinity | fabbione : Note that until very recently, PHP/libmm on unstable worked this very same way. | 07:42 |
| fabbione | infinity: apache was crashing on restart. | 07:42 |
| fabbione | downgrade mm was fine again | 07:42 |
| fabbione | same setup except outside UML | 07:42 |
| infinity | Must have been a tiny /tmp | 07:42 |
| infinity | Or stable's libmm is broken in even more interesting ways than unstable's. | 07:43 |
| fabbione | also.. if it was working before with a 1MB /tmp it must keep working if nothing else changed | 07:43 |
| infinity | <nod>.. I agree. The change should have been tested more. | 07:43 |
| fabbione | infinity: libmm in stable got an update in the "attempt" to fix a php segfault | 07:43 |
| infinity | Not much we can do about it now, unless Joey can push a fix in somehow. | 07:44 |
| fabbione | infinity: i am going to knock on Joey's door if he doesn't fix it now | 07:44 |
| fabbione | or i will let him adopt apache... so he can feel the pain | 07:44 |
| infinity | (FOr the reocrd, I had no idea broonie had uploaded that s-p-u upload until it made it into the last update... I only expected him to do the MMFILE experimenting on unstable..) | 07:45 |
| fabbione | read the changelog... | 07:45 |
| infinity | And, for added irony, I've since completely removed MM as a session handler in PHP, cause it sucks. | 07:45 |
| fabbione | it is scary | 07:45 |
| fabbione | brb | 07:45 |
| === infinity runs off and stops abusing #u-d. | ||
| === lamont_r [~lamont@c-24-6-251-226.client.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| fabbione | hey lamont | 08:56 |
| lamont_r | ho | 09:14 |
| lamont_r | yo, even | 09:14 |
| fabbione | lamont_r: i saw all the build failures for x.org on ia64 :-) | 09:14 |
| lamont_r | heh | 09:14 |
| lamont_r | how many? | 09:14 |
| fabbione | if you can send me the files i asked for, i can fix it before we upload the next version | 09:14 |
| fabbione | several failures... | 09:15 |
| fabbione | because it's missing rman :-) | 09:15 |
| fabbione | an orgy of failures :P | 09:15 |
| lamont_r | yeah - it's still building from a partial archive | 09:15 |
| fabbione | ok | 09:15 |
| lamont_r | and then I'll have to really fix cyrus-sasl2 tomorrow... | 09:16 |
| fabbione | and it is trying at a regular rate of once every hour :-P | 09:16 |
| lamont_r | of course, nearly time to fall over tonight. | 09:16 |
| lamont_r | really... hrm. yeah. | 09:16 |
| fabbione | did you spot the problem with my logs? | 09:16 |
| lamont_r | not yet | 09:16 |
| fabbione | ok | 09:17 |
| lamont_r | more to the point, I didn't spot how your's managed to avoid the failure... | 09:17 |
| fabbione | because my sparc is more cool than your buildd's? | 09:17 |
| lamont_r | no | 09:17 |
| lamont_r | :-) | 09:17 |
| fabbione | hheeh | 09:17 |
| fabbione | interesting | 09:18 |
| fabbione | take a look at zsh | 09:18 |
| fabbione | did you install autoconf on amd64 and ia64 buildd manually? | 09:18 |
| fabbione | because i get the same FTBFS as i386 and ppc | 09:19 |
| lamont_r | no | 09:20 |
| lamont_r | $alternatives{"automaken"}="automake1.8"; | 09:20 |
| lamont_r | $ | 09:20 |
| fabbione | possible leftovers? | 09:20 |
| lamont_r | I do have that... | 09:20 |
| fabbione | which file? | 09:20 |
| lamont_r | .sbuildrc | 09:21 |
| lamont_r | I suppose it's possible that autoconf got installed and left somehow, but I don't believe so | 09:21 |
| fabbione | "xserver" => "xserver-xfree86", | 09:22 |
| fabbione | hmm | 09:22 |
| fabbione | there are a bunch of those that needs love | 09:22 |
| infinity | Nothing build-deps on xserver anymore. | 09:22 |
| lamont_r | yeah - mail-transport-agent is another | 09:22 |
| lamont_r | which is good.. | 09:22 |
| infinity | Rather, yes. | 09:23 |
| === seb128 [~seb128@ANancy-151-1-24-221.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| === infinity wonders how long it would take him to bootstrap and build ubuntu/main on m68k if he pulled a couple of 060s out of the Debian buildd rotation for a while... | ||
| fabbione | infinity: a lot.. and you will fail on X.org :-) | 09:25 |
| fabbione | i still need to merge the MANIFEST files check | 09:25 |
| fabbione | but the code compiles without any glitch | 09:25 |
| seb128 | morning | 09:25 |
| fabbione | morning seb128 | 09:25 |
| infinity | fabbione : How many regressions have you guys found in moving from XF86 to Xorg? | 09:25 |
| seb128 | hi fabbione | 09:26 |
| fabbione | infinity: from a usage pov or packaging pov? | 09:26 |
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| infinity | fabbione : Usage. | 09:27 |
| fabbione | infinity: only 3 or 4, but nothing really bad | 09:27 |
| fabbione | we have only 3 bugs open on X.org | 09:27 |
| fabbione | one of them fixed upstream | 09:27 |
| infinity | You'll get a few more if you push it into Debian, I'd imagine. :0 | 09:27 |
| fabbione | infinity: i am sure about that too, but we need to merge first | 09:28 |
| fabbione | and Overfiend is still drawing the layout for the SVN repo | 09:28 |
| fabbione | after that we can start syncing again | 09:28 |
| infinity | No chance of a hostile takeover, I guess? | 09:28 |
| fabbione | why a hostile takeover? | 09:29 |
| fabbione | Overfiend and I work perfectly together | 09:29 |
| fabbione | there is NO point in taking over | 09:29 |
| infinity | Fair enough. But the lack of DanielS in the team seems like a mistake. | 09:29 |
| infinity | Clash of egos notwithstanding. | 09:30 |
| seb128 | fabbione: how is the UTF-8 issue going ? | 09:30 |
| fabbione | infinity: i have been pushing changes back and forward in place of Overfiend and DanielS | 09:30 |
| infinity | Heh. | 09:30 |
| fabbione | infinity: so that is not an issue | 09:30 |
| fabbione | seb128: it's not.. it is not high priority for me at the moment | 09:30 |
| seb128 | ok | 09:31 |
| fabbione | seb128: you will have to bug daniels at least until DecConf | 09:31 |
| seb128 | fabbione: there is no hurry, I was just wondering | 09:31 |
| fabbione | seb128: i know :-) i don't feel the pressure | 09:31 |
| === lamont_r sleeps | ||
| fabbione | night lamont | 09:37 |
| seb128 | 'night lamont_r | 09:37 |
| === calc [~ccheney@ip70-185-2-220.ma.dl.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| fabbione | sabdfl morning | 09:52 |
| sabdfl | hiya fabbione | 09:53 |
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| seb128 | daniels: here ? | 10:07 |
| daniels | seb128: yo, sup | 10:10 |
| seb128 | daniels: | 10:10 |
| seb128 | xine-lib (1-rc6a-1ubuntu1) hoary; urgency=low | 10:10 |
| seb128 | * Resync with Debian. | 10:10 |
| seb128 | that's not really useful to redo a merge with the new version | 10:10 |
| seb128 | do you any details on what do you merged ? | 10:10 |
| === lulu [~lu@host217-37-231-28.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| daniels | i took the ubuntu changes ... and applied them to the debian version ... like the rest of the sync ... | 10:12 |
| seb128 | ok, so I just have to read the diff to get the ubuntu changes ? :) | 10:12 |
| seb128 | that's only the | 10:12 |
| seb128 | * debian/control: | 10:12 |
| seb128 | - Also build-depend on libtheora-dev, because it is worthy of our praise and | 10:12 |
| seb128 | adulation. Also, tautologies. | 10:12 |
| seb128 | 10:12 | |
| seb128 | ? | 10:12 |
| calc | whee! | 10:13 |
| calc | someone using theora finally | 10:13 |
| seb128 | ah ah | 10:13 |
| === calc has yet to ever use it despite maintaining it | ||
| daniels | seb128: um, yeah, dude | 10:13 |
| seb128 | ok, thanks | 10:14 |
| calc | daniels: canonical hackfest in london? | 10:14 |
| === calc sees everyone with the same ip | ||
| infinity | Hotel with a dinky 2Mb pipe. You could DoS it and make a great number of Canonical folk very unhappy. | 10:15 |
| infinity | Not that I'd suggest such a thing. | 10:16 |
| elmo__ | infinity: all two of them | 10:16 |
| === elmo__ is now known as elmo | ||
| infinity | Oh, that's less fun, then. | 10:16 |
| infinity | And lulu... | 10:16 |
| infinity | That's 3. | 10:16 |
| elmo | infinity: dude, this IP isn't the hotel | 10:16 |
| infinity | Oh. :) | 10:16 |
| === infinity goes back to his hole. | ||
| daniels | (the hotel is the one with 'hotel' in the domain name) | 10:17 |
| calc | george.kkhotels.co.uk | 10:17 |
| daniels | i'm glad I checked in as 'george rumpadinkle' :P | 10:18 |
| calc | heh | 10:20 |
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| Mitario | hello | 10:21 |
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| Astharot | hello | 11:10 |
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| azeem | daf: did you repackage the ruby-gnome2 upstream tarball? The size seems to be slightly off to what's on upstream's download site, or I picked the wrong tarball | 11:37 |
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| seb128 | elmo: gaim sync please :) | 01:05 |
| seb128 | jamesh: here ? | 01:05 |
| elmo | seb128: done | 01:11 |
| seb128 | thanks | 01:11 |
| Kamion | jdub: ... with Fabio as maintainer? (xserver-xorg) | 01:12 |
| daniels | Kamion: hmm? | 01:13 |
| Kamion | daniels: unless there's a Bugzilla account that goes to both of you | 01:17 |
| daniels | Kamion: assigned to d.s@c.c please | 01:17 |
| Kamion | Fabio's the xserver-xfree86 maintainer at the moment; should it be you for xserver-xorg? | 01:17 |
| Kamion | ok | 01:17 |
| Kamion | jdub: ^-- | 01:17 |
| daniels | Kamion: xorg is mine now, yah | 01:17 |
| fabbione | Kamion: *X* -> daniels | 01:18 |
| Kamion | bonus for Fabio, then :-) | 01:22 |
| daniels | heh, yeah | 01:22 |
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| === sid77 ciao | ||
| fabbione | sparcbuildd@vultus5:~/chroots$ sudo rm -rf xorg-chroot/ | 01:29 |
| === fabbione grins | ||
| fabbione | daniels: sparc is done and changes committed to baz | 01:29 |
| daniels | awesome, will update it | 01:29 |
| daniels | nice work :) | 01:29 |
| fabbione | i need to find the time to merge m68k | 01:30 |
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| stratus | Do i need report that sed 4.1.2-2 postinst is f*cked? | 01:41 |
| sid77 | lol | 01:41 |
| sid77 | just reported (again) in #ubuntu | 01:42 |
| stratus | hmm 3771 maybe | 01:42 |
| daniels | stratus: no | 01:42 |
| daniels | stratus: known problem, came in via a debian sync, will be fixed via a debian sync | 01:42 |
| sid77 | btw, is there anything to do beside waiting? | 01:42 |
| sid77 | ok | 01:42 |
| sid77 | answered by daniels | 01:43 |
| stratus | daniels, i see | 01:43 |
| Kamion | the sed thing has been reported about 10 times so far | 01:43 |
| stratus | sid77, bugzilla.ubuntu.com/3771 | 01:43 |
| stratus | no problem i was just asking and searching at bugzilla at the same time | 01:43 |
| sid77 | stratus, I know | 01:43 |
| daniels | Kamion: my My Bugs query now makes me look a hell of a lot worse | 01:43 |
| Kamion | it's already been fixed in Debian incoming | 01:44 |
| Kamion | daniels: heh | 01:44 |
| Kamion | daniels: try mine | 01:44 |
| stratus | yes, 4.1.2-3 is there | 01:44 |
| Kamion | daniels: (100 bugs or thereabouts; I made a heroic effort the other day to get it down from 120-ish) | 01:47 |
| daniels | Kamion: wow, nice | 01:48 |
| fabbione | daniels: -1 hour and 2 minutes | 01:58 |
| daniels | -1? | 01:59 |
| fabbione | countdown | 01:59 |
| fabbione | 1 hour to go | 02:00 |
| fabbione | now | 02:00 |
| fabbione | tic | 02:00 |
| fabbione | tac | 02:00 |
| fabbione | tic | 02:00 |
| fabbione | tac | 02:00 |
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| amu | moins | 02:07 |
| haggai | amu! | 02:08 |
| amu | haggai: *waves* | 02:09 |
| seb128 | elmo: python-gnome2 sync too :) | 02:09 |
| elmo | done | 02:12 |
| seb128 | thanks | 02:13 |
| Kamion | elmo: please sync console-data | 02:16 |
| Kamion | (-46.1) | 02:16 |
| elmo | done | 02:17 |
| Kamion | thanks | 02:17 |
| Kamion | elmo: please sync redland from Debian | 02:34 |
| Kamion | boggle, now d-i/udev just works; I didn't do anything to fix it | 02:36 |
| === Kamion looks confused | ||
| Kamion | last night main-menu was segfaulting away | 02:36 |
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| Mithrandir | hmm, are we going to move to gcc-3.4 for hoary? | 02:41 |
| elmo | Kamion: done | 02:42 |
| Kamion | thanks | 02:43 |
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| fabbione | daniels: i think i found a really really bad bug in xserver-xorg | 02:51 |
| daniels | cool! | 02:51 |
| daniels | what is it? | 02:51 |
| daniels | (please don't say it's about xkb, or I'll cry) | 02:51 |
| fabbione | i need to see if i can reproduce it but it i think we lost debconf data on conversion from xserver-xfree86 | 02:52 |
| daniels | gah | 02:52 |
| daniels | what data? | 02:52 |
| fabbione | at least 3 things... monitor identifier, and vert/horiz sync | 02:53 |
| daniels | mmm | 02:54 |
| fabbione | it happend on the hp box | 02:54 |
| fabbione | not on mine | 02:54 |
| daniels | so what's the effect of losing V/H? recalculated from resolution? | 02:55 |
| fabbione | i need to try and reproduce it | 02:55 |
| fabbione | daniels: you are the X.org maintainer.. you need to tell me :P | 02:55 |
| fabbione | no seriously | 02:55 |
| fabbione | i need to check on a 3rd box | 02:56 |
| daniels | hey man, you know my plans for sync rates being written out anyway :) | 02:56 |
| daniels | fabbione: hey, here's a cool datapoint | 03:04 |
| daniels | when we use libX11 from the modular tree, UTF-8 locales work. | 03:04 |
| fabbione | daniels: good.. now diff them and find the fix :P | 03:05 |
| daniels | ha ha ha | 03:06 |
| fabbione | HMMM | 03:07 |
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| fabbione | daniels: apparently it was a glitch on the hp | 03:12 |
| fabbione | the other 4 installations are ok | 03:12 |
| fabbione | daniels: please verify witrh debconf-show xserver-xorg | 03:12 |
| fabbione | if you get all the values as expected | 03:12 |
| fabbione | guys.. you too | 03:12 |
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| daniels | fabbione: ok, the UTF-8 problem isn't related to the locale *data*, it's a code issue | 03:18 |
| daniels | (aieeeeee!0 | 03:18 |
| daniels | fabbione: i have h-s and v-s | 03:19 |
| fabbione | daniels: ok good. it's a glitch on the hp box than | 03:22 |
| fabbione | i will have to check it later | 03:22 |
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| michiel_ | hi everyone | 03:30 |
| sivang | hi pitti | 03:31 |
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| Mitario | *sigh* great | 03:31 |
| Mitario | i think the breakage of the sed package is not new? :) | 03:36 |
| Kamion | Mitario: new today in Debian, also fixed in Debian incoming | 03:36 |
| Mitario | ah ok | 03:36 |
| Kamion | reported lots :) | 03:36 |
| Mitario | yeah, thought so :) | 03:36 |
| seb128 | the package which is in incoming doesn't build here :/ | 03:36 |
| === ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:bob2] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion and support on #ubuntu | Hoary is here: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2004-October/000005.html | Want to help? see https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryGoals | yes, sed is broken in sid and hoary, fix coming soon | ||
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| === Kamion completes an installation with d-i/udev | ||
| elmo | Kamion: rock on | 03:43 |
| daniels | fabbione: found the spots where threading is TOTALLY BROKEN | 03:44 |
| fabbione | daniels: good | 03:44 |
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| Kamion | seb128: built fine on the Debian buildds | 04:01 |
| elmo | Kamion: did you hear back from Lamont WRT Herbert and ia64 ? | 04:02 |
| Kamion | elmo: no | 04:02 |
| elmo | ok, I'll mail him - I need some kernel love for ia64 myself anyways | 04:03 |
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| Kamion | elmo: we *are* still contracting Herbert, aren't we? haven't heard anything from him in a while | 04:18 |
| seb128 | Kamion: apparently the problem is locale dependent | 04:19 |
| elmo | Kamion: yep, I talked to him about kernel security stuff yesterday | 04:19 |
| bob2 | selinux! | 04:19 |
| elmo | bob2: is that some variation on tourettes? | 04:19 |
| Kamion | elmo: ah, good | 04:21 |
| Kamion | seb128: yay :-/ | 04:21 |
| Kamion | elmo: we should have a swear-box for buzzwords | 04:21 |
| daniels | Kamion: XORG COMPOSITE SHINY | 04:21 |
| Kamion | *bzzt* *bzzt* *bzzt* | 04:22 |
| Kamion | (udev!) | 04:22 |
| daniels | BING! | 04:22 |
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| === sid77 bye! | ||
| spotter | is there any reason universe packages don't appear in the gnome menu, even when they have a .desktop file (and appear in plain debian) | 04:30 |
| spotter | for example, blam | 04:30 |
| rburton | spotter: tried killing the panel? | 04:31 |
| spotter | argh | 04:31 |
| rburton | that will force the panel to re-read | 04:32 |
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| spotter | it usually does it by itself w/ot that | 04:32 |
| rburton | yes | 04:33 |
| rburton | this is a bug, do you have fam/gamin installed? | 04:33 |
| spotter | gamin is installed | 04:34 |
| spotter | and so is fam | 04:34 |
| spotter | hmm | 04:34 |
| spotter | that cant be a good thing | 04:34 |
| spotter | hmm, guess they dont conflict | 04:35 |
| spotter | thought they did | 04:35 |
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| spotter | hmm, dpkg seems to allow one to remove dependencies | 04:37 |
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| azeem | hoary features evolution-2.1, right? | 04:59 |
| Keybuk | yes | 04:59 |
| azeem | thanks | 05:00 |
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| pitti | sjoerd: just read the hal commit changelogs; looks nice :-) | 05:02 |
| sjoerd | pitti: thanks | 05:03 |
| sjoerd | pitti: one issue though.. My external usb2 disk doesn't have the sysfs removable property set to 1 | 05:03 |
| pitti | sjoerd: now that you tried out tarball.mk, do you actually like it? You should not use it just because I do :-) | 05:04 |
| pitti | sjoerd: bad | 05:04 |
| sjoerd | dbs-edit-patch is indeed very nice | 05:04 |
| pitti | sjoerd: but pmount does not only rely on this attribute | 05:04 |
| pitti | sjoerd: it uses the attribute in addition to bus checking | 05:04 |
| sjoerd | but to set it up correctly is a hassle | 05:04 |
| sjoerd | pitti: that doesn't help hal :( | 05:05 |
| pitti | sjoerd: all USB and FireWire devices should work (also with older kernels, which don't provide the attribute anyway) | 05:05 |
| pitti | sjoerd: ah, I see what you mean | 05:05 |
| pitti | sjoerd: does it work with other devices? | 05:05 |
| sjoerd | yah my usb flash pen thingy works fine | 05:05 |
| sjoerd | brw-r----- 1 root hal 8, 33 Nov 16 22:44 /dev/sdc1 | 05:06 |
| sjoerd | pitti: currently hacking gvm so we can just specify "/usr/bin/pmount-hal %h" | 05:07 |
| pitti | oh, you changed the permissions to 0640 | 05:07 |
| pitti | sjoerd: but I already modified g-v-m to do that | 05:07 |
| pitti | sjoerd: ah, you mean you support the %foo templates? | 05:08 |
| sjoerd | yeah | 05:08 |
| pitti | like %d for device, %u for udi and so on? | 05:08 |
| sjoerd | yes | 05:08 |
| elmo | pitti: 'Using sudo is inherently insecure' - what crack are you on, and can I have some please? | 05:09 |
| daniels | elmo: please dude, no more :P | 05:10 |
| pitti | elmo: because as soon as the user sudo'ed something, all of his processes have essentially root capabilities | 05:10 |
| Keybuk | pitti: that's the same as "su" though | 05:10 |
| pitti | right | 05:11 |
| Keybuk | "user who can become root" in "can become root" shocker | 05:11 |
| pitti | well, only if you have the timeout, which su does not have | 05:11 |
| Keybuk | *shrug* just send key presses to the terminal with su running inside it | 05:11 |
| Keybuk | it's not exactly rocket science | 05:11 |
| pitti | right | 05:11 |
| Keybuk | sudo encourages you to *not* leave a root shell open all the time | 05:12 |
| pitti | sudo is just a little worse, but it does not open principially new holes | 05:12 |
| Keybuk | I'd say sudo is a little better | 05:12 |
| pitti | Keybuk: but you can gain root even if you don't have a root shell open | 05:12 |
| Keybuk | only within a few minutes of the user becoming root themselves | 05:12 |
| elmo | pitti: dude, there is more to sudo than "unrestricted root" | 05:12 |
| pitti | Keybuk: I think sudo and su don't differ quite much in this regard | 05:12 |
| pitti | elmo: right | 05:12 |
| pitti | elmo: but in Warty it's unrestricted root | 05:13 |
| pitti | elmo: that's why I said that I don't bother to fix the bug in Warty | 05:13 |
| pitti | elmo: it can be fixed in Hoary and upstream, for my sake | 05:13 |
| pitti | elmo: well, if there is a general desire, I do fix the bug in Warty | 05:13 |
| pitti | but I don't really see the benefit | 05:13 |
| Keybuk | ANYTHING that lets you elevate your privileges is an attack honeypot | 05:14 |
| pitti | fix a small hole and neglect the really big one? hmm | 05:14 |
| elmo | pitti: no, dude it's not "unrestricted root" in warty | 05:14 |
| elmo | I have 40 servers that say otherwise | 05:14 |
| pitti | logging in as root at a text console is the only safe way anyway | 05:14 |
| Keybuk | there is absolutely no way to allow someone to "become an administrator" which isn't a gaping security hole | 05:14 |
| elmo | please don't make inane assumptions like users never customize | 05:14 |
| pitti | elmo: do your servers call sudo programs without specifying the exact path? | 05:16 |
| pitti | elmo: because the attack only works if you call programs without path | 05:16 |
| pitti | but then you can as well put a trojan horse somewhere else in $PATH | 05:16 |
| pitti | Well, for my sake I fix it | 05:16 |
| elmo | no, they don't - what's that got to do with anything tho? my point is that the default, is just that, the default. it's not the only way sudo is used | 05:17 |
| pitti | Keybuk: what's wrong with login at the text console? | 05:17 |
| daniels | pitti: the fact it's at a data centre? | 05:17 |
| pitti | daniels: well, root login over ssh should be safe too, right? The pty belongs to root | 05:18 |
| Keybuk | pitti: uh, no | 05:18 |
| Keybuk | the terminal is owned by the USER | 05:18 |
| Keybuk | simply debug the terminal and send key presses to it | 05:18 |
| Keybuk | and that's not even considering anything more evil | 05:18 |
| pitti | Keybuk: no, it's not; if I login as ROOT, the terminal is owned by root | 05:19 |
| Keybuk | pitti: login as root where? | 05:19 |
| Keybuk | the machine's in the data centre | 05:19 |
| pitti | Keybuk: text console? | 05:19 |
| pitti | Keybuk: or ssh | 05:19 |
| daniels | pitti: send key events via XTest | 05:19 |
| pitti | daniels: I speak about text consoles, not X terminals | 05:19 |
| Keybuk | so to login to the data centre machine as root, you switch your own desktop/laptop to text console and login there as root, sshing from root to root to get to the other machine? | 05:19 |
| daniels | pitti: so you have everyone with the one root account. rad. | 05:20 |
| pitti | Keybuk: that's an entirely different problem; I speak about the host you login to, not the client side | 05:20 |
| daniels | pitti: right | 05:20 |
| Keybuk | pitti: no, it's exactly the same problem | 05:20 |
| daniels | pitti: so, at the clientside, you do it in an xterm | 05:20 |
| daniels | pitti: and I just send lots of XTest key events | 05:20 |
| daniels | and screen-scrape your xterm | 05:20 |
| pitti | daniels: as I said, there is no safe way to login as root under X | 05:20 |
| Keybuk | if you don't clean-room root the entire way, you're argument drops onto the floor and dies | 05:20 |
| daniels | pitti: so you are talking about the clientside | 05:21 |
| pitti | Keybuk: of course, if you don't trust your laptop, you shouldn't do ssh root. There is simply no other way | 05:21 |
| pitti | Keybuk: you HAVE to trust the whole chain | 05:21 |
| daniels | pitti: so what you're saying is that no-one should bother running computers? | 05:21 |
| pitti | Keybuk: and this is entirely orthogonal to sudo/su/whatever authentication system | 05:22 |
| pitti | daniels: no | 05:22 |
| Keybuk | pitti: no, it's entirely the same thing | 05:22 |
| Keybuk | as soon as there is a gateway where you go from a mortal to a superuser, that is where you attack | 05:22 |
| pitti | daniels: I said that the only safe way to login as root at my computer is vga text console, not from an user's session | 05:22 |
| Keybuk | it doesn't matter whether that's a command like su or sudo on the server, or someone's ssh client on their laptop | 05:22 |
| pitti | Keybuk: of course | 05:22 |
| === calc [~ccheney@ip70-185-2-220.ma.dl.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| Keybuk | "running anything as root is inherently insecure" | 05:24 |
| Keybuk | not just sudo | 05:24 |
| pitti | processes that run as root can't be touched by other users (apart from buffer overflows and similar holes, of course) | 05:25 |
| pitti | so root processes are not insecure by design, to the contrary | 05:25 |
| pitti | the weak point is the authentication | 05:25 |
| daniels | 17:22 < Keybuk> as soon as there is a gateway where you go from a mortal to a superuser, that is where you attack | 05:26 |
| pitti | so as soon as you use sudo and su from an user's session, root and user don't have separated contexts any more, and root is no better any more | 05:26 |
| Kamion | yes, and bugs that weaken the authentication further are unacceptable for exactly that reason | 05:26 |
| pitti | Kamion: what do you mean in particular? | 05:27 |
| Keybuk | pitti: but it's not just sudo and su, it's as soon as you use any method to become root from a user's session -- ssh root@ is just as attackable | 05:27 |
| pitti | Kamion: the sudo bug does not weaken authentication | 05:27 |
| pitti | Keybuk: of course, that was my exact argument | 05:28 |
| Keybuk | but you need to be able to become root from a user's session | 05:28 |
| pitti | why? | 05:28 |
| daniels | the sudo bug does weaken authentication | 05:28 |
| daniels | because it allows you to escalate privileges in ways that you shouldn't be able to | 05:28 |
| Keybuk | so the concern instead goes to limiting the damage | 05:28 |
| daniels | regardless of the default configuration, surely that's a method of weakening authentication? | 05:28 |
| pitti | daniels: no, it enables you to run trojan horses in an already authenticated root session | 05:28 |
| daniels | yes, which is escalating privileges in ways that you shouldn't be able to | 05:29 |
| daniels | (fwiw, xfree86 is go whenever the buildds are done) | 05:29 |
| === Bernhard_ [~bernhard@chello212186163163.32.11.vie.surfer.at] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| pitti | daniels: if you allow users to run sudo programs without full path, you have lost anyway | 05:29 |
| Kamion | pitti: uh, no, restricted sudo is not a freely available root session; you're arguing that it's OK to turn restricted sudo into unrestricted sudo which it totally isn't | 05:29 |
| pitti | daniels: you don't need functions for that | 05:29 |
| Kamion | that's a rather binary argument IMHO | 05:30 |
| pitti | daniels: I already released xfree86 | 05:30 |
| daniels | ah, cool. thanks. | 05:30 |
| pitti | Kamion: with "restricted" you mean that you can only run some programs? | 05:30 |
| Kamion | yes | 05:30 |
| pitti | Kamion: and you say that it is safe to specify the set of allowed programs without full path? | 05:31 |
| daniels | (e.g. for freedesktop.org, pasc will probably be allowed to run /usr/sbin/postfix -- and *only* /usr/sbin/postfix -- as whatever he needs to, as he admins our mail) | 05:31 |
| pitti | daniels: ah. But pasc will _not_ be allowed to run "postfix", right? | 05:31 |
| pitti | daniels: if you specified /usr/bin/postfix, then you are safe even with the current sudo | 05:32 |
| Kamion | pitti: ah, hmm | 05:32 |
| azeem | does sudo qualify the path and then look it up? | 05:32 |
| pitti | daniels: the bug applies only if you specify without path | 05:32 |
| pitti | azeem: it uses $PATH normally | 05:32 |
| Kamion | is there a way to force a particular $PATH in sudoers | 05:33 |
| Kamion | ? | 05:33 |
| pitti | as I see it, sudo should rather clean the $PATH instead of purging all functions from the environment | 05:33 |
| pitti | Kamion: I have to research that | 05:33 |
| pitti | Kamion: you can specify the "env_reset" flag | 05:34 |
| pitti | Kamion: oh no, this will not alter $PATH | 05:35 |
| pitti | Kamion: however, it seems like a good idea anyway (and will close this export function bug, too) | 05:35 |
| Kamion | we build --with-secure-path="/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/X11R6/bin" | 05:35 |
| Kamion | so surely env_reset would reset $PATH to that? | 05:35 |
| pitti | ah, nice | 05:35 |
| pitti | Kamion: the manpage says that it only purges everything but HOME, LOGNAME, PATH, SHELL, TERM, and USER | 05:36 |
| pitti | Kamion: so --with-secure-path should rather be applied unconditionally | 05:36 |
| Kamion | yes, but then right afterwards it says that PATH will be set to the value of SECURE_PATH if sudo was compiled that way | 05:36 |
| pitti | right | 05:37 |
| pitti | currently, "sudo echo $PATH" prints for me: | 05:37 |
| pitti | /home/martin/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/bin/X11:/usr/games | 05:37 |
| Kamion | er, $PATH is expanded *before* sudo gets a look-in in that command! | 05:38 |
| Kamion | <cjwatson@cairhien ~>$ echo $PATH | 05:38 |
| Kamion | /home/cjwatson/bin:/usr/lib/surfraw:/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/bin/X11:/usr/games:/usr/sbin:/sbin | 05:38 |
| Kamion | <cjwatson@cairhien ~>$ sudo sh -c 'echo $PATH' | 05:38 |
| Kamion | /usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/X11R6/bin | 05:38 |
| Kamion | that's on Debian, but should be the same | 05:38 |
| pitti | oh, right | 05:38 |
| pitti | yes | 05:38 |
| pitti | just checked | 05:39 |
| Kamion | also: | 05:39 |
| Kamion | <cjwatson@cairhien ~>$ which burn-cd | 05:39 |
| Kamion | /home/cjwatson/bin/burn-cd | 05:39 |
| Kamion | <cjwatson@cairhien ~>$ sudo burn-cd | 05:39 |
| Kamion | sudo: burn-cd: command not found | 05:39 |
| Kamion | so it looks like sudo already does clean the $PATH before looking up where to execute a binary, and this vulnerability is indeed relevant | 05:40 |
| pitti | as I said, for my sake I fix it | 05:40 |
| Kamion | assuming you haven't given write permissions to any of the directories in SECURE_PATH | 05:40 |
| pitti | well, I think this is a realatively safe assumption | 05:40 |
| Kamion | yep | 05:40 |
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| azeem | lamont_r: do you guys have sbuild packages for ubuntu up somewhere? | 06:02 |
| lamont_r | azeem: the sbuild that we're using is almost identical to debian's, and I've been pushing diffs to neuro as I make changes. | 06:06 |
| lamont_r | frankly, some of the changes make no sense for debian, etc. | 06:06 |
| azeem | ok, so where should I hack sbuild so that it accepts warty as distribution? Or is this not possible? | 06:07 |
| lamont_r | oh, that diff... | 06:07 |
| lamont_r | sec | 06:07 |
| lamont_r | search for 'Bad distrib' in the file somewhere around line 576 | 06:08 |
| lamont_r | make it look like this... | 06:08 |
| lamont_r | $main::distribution = "unstable" if $main::distribution eq "u"; | 06:08 |
| lamont_r | #die "Bad distribution\n" | 06:08 |
| lamont_r | # if !isin($main::distribution, keys(%main::dist_order)); | 06:08 |
| azeem | heh | 06:08 |
| lamont_r | for extra credit, go down to after the closing brace after "Unknown option", and add: | 06:09 |
| lamont_r | die "Need distribution\n" if $main::distribution eq "unstable"; | 06:09 |
| m_tthew | for extra *extra* credit, rewrite it in python. | 06:11 |
| lamont_r | m_tthew: actually, there's an even more invasive rewrite in progress | 06:11 |
| Kamion | or decent perl | 06:11 |
| azeem | lamont_r: other than the multibuild effort? | 06:12 |
| m_tthew | lamont_r: nice | 06:12 |
| lamont_r | sadly, the basic architectural design is completely different than debians, sadly | 06:13 |
| azeem | I had to touch /var/lib/sbuild/source-dependencies-warty as well, but maybe that's because I was using the packaged version of sbuild | 06:14 |
| infinity | lamont_r If you just pull "unstable" out of main::dist_order, then it'll happily die. | 06:14 |
| infinity | lamont_r : And put in the ubuntu dists too. | 06:14 |
| daniels | hot air on lists doesn't count as a rewrite | 06:14 |
| lamont_r | actually, I just changed it to require a dist, and never mind adding each new chroot I want to have... | 06:15 |
| lamont_r | much simpler to force me to type -dfoo | 06:15 |
| infinity | Perhaps. | 06:15 |
| lamont_r | actually, the version on my personal machine is slightly different - -dunstable still works.. :-) | 06:16 |
| infinity | I'd say that main::dist_order should be overridable in .sbuildrc | 06:16 |
| daniels | infinity: yes | 06:16 |
| lamont_r | given that the if statement there is the only place it's used in sbuild, I'd say it should just be deleted..... | 06:16 |
| azeem | will you submit a patch to debootstrap so it is possible to bootstrap Ubuntu from Debian? (in case you haven't already) | 06:17 |
| mirak | isn't the kernel 2.6 responsible of sound problems ? | 06:18 |
| lamont_r | azeem: good question for Kamion, I expect... | 06:18 |
| mirak | I have heard that on #debian | 06:18 |
| lamont_r | it's not exactly a debian bug that it lacks debootstrap scripts for other distros.... | 06:18 |
| mirak | in fact when I rip a audio cd, I got a empty wav file | 06:19 |
| azeem | lamont_r: not a bug, but wishlist :) | 06:19 |
| infinity | lamont_r : No, but a wishlish request, certainly. | 06:19 |
| mirak | but the size is good | 06:19 |
| azeem | mirak: saying that 2.6 is broken WRT sound is a rather broad statement | 06:19 |
| infinity | lamont_r : If I could debootstrap warty dists from my sid machine, it'd make making chroots and playing aroiund that much simpler. | 06:19 |
| mirak | azeem: what does meean broad statement | 06:19 |
| mirak | ? | 06:19 |
| infinity | s/warty./ubuntu/ | 06:20 |
| === infinity decides to go back to napping. | ||
| lamont_r | understood... one could fetch the warty* files from ubuntu's debootstrap, of course. | 06:20 |
| infinity | Oh, of course. | 06:20 |
| lamont_r | a wishlist would make sense | 06:20 |
| azeem | Log for successful build of synce-serial_0.9.0-1 (dist=warty) | 06:20 |
| azeem | woot | 06:20 |
| azeem | of course, I just figured out that synce-serial is in universe and the guy on -users probably doesn't have that | 06:20 |
| mirak | azeem: what means "broad statement" ? | 06:21 |
| azeem | mirak: it means: it is not specific enough | 06:21 |
| azeem | mirak: surely sound did work on Linux-2.6 and still does for most users | 06:21 |
| mirak | azeem: yet I can't find a reason why I can't hear audio CD sound | 06:22 |
| mirak | this doesn't makes sens | 06:22 |
| mirak | I mean that's numeric data | 06:22 |
| azeem | mirak: did you try #ubuntu? | 06:22 |
| mirak | if I can read a normal cd | 06:22 |
| Kamion | azeem: aj has copies of our debootstrap packages, if he wants to do so | 06:22 |
| mirak | azeem: I asked on every linux channel lol | 06:23 |
| mirak | azeem: I have heard somebody else with this problem | 06:23 |
| azeem | mirak: I can't help you | 06:23 |
| azeem | Kamion: ah, ok | 06:23 |
| lamont_r | mirak: the correct place for support questions is #ubuntu, this channel would be the right place to discuss your patch for fixing it... | 06:23 |
| mirak | azeem: I ask in dev section, because maybe, there is more "competent" people on this subject | 06:23 |
| azeem | mirak: the same people are also in #ubuntu | 06:23 |
| azeem | well, some of them at least | 06:24 |
| mirak | azeem: ok | 06:24 |
| === dasenjo [~dasenjo@200.21.83.173] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| Kamion | mirak: competent people who'll just retreat somewhere else if they don't have some peace away from support questions, though :) | 06:24 |
| Kamion | we used to use #ubuntu as our development channel, before the preview ... | 06:25 |
| mirak | Kamion: don't, I ask here, because it seems more an internal problem than a usage problem, if you see what I mean. but well I will continue to search everywhere | 06:26 |
| mirak | but not here :) | 06:26 |
| rcaskey | you know, reading debian release news these days just doesn't have the same zing as it did before ubuntu | 06:35 |
| azeem | what's "zing"? | 06:37 |
| rcaskey | excitement | 06:38 |
| azeem | ah | 06:39 |
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| === enrico_ is now known as enrico | ||
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| Kamion | anyone want to claim understanding of what's needed to fix #3770 in a udev world? | 06:55 |
| daniels | Kamion: fwiw, I'm pretty sure I've nailed the UTF-8 bug in libX11 | 06:58 |
| daniels | Kamion: rebuild of that pending, right after this security build of x.org finishes ... | 06:58 |
| pitti | Kamion: is this really an udev problem? this rather sounds as if the alsa modules are not loaded | 06:58 |
| Kamion | pitti: oh, I'm not suggesting it's a udev problem | 06:59 |
| pitti | Can somebody please proofread https://chinstrap.warthogs.hbd.com/~pitti/usn-sudo.txt ? Thanks in advance | 07:03 |
| pitti | Kamion: #3770: it seems that the reporter was not using udev at all; so maybe it's just NOTWARTY? | 07:04 |
| Kamion | pitti: "non-fully qualified" => "non-fully-qualified", I'd say; otherwise fine | 07:05 |
| lamont_r | pitti: you forgot to say "for this and other reasons, one should not use a shell script that runs with elevated privileges." :-) | 07:05 |
| Kamion | pitti: well, it's explicitly when upgrading from sarge, which we want to support in hoary | 07:05 |
| Kamion | I've asked him if he installed udev and rebooted | 07:05 |
| pitti | Kamion: the bug report contains too little information to pinpoint the problem; but udev should solve it | 07:06 |
| pitti | Kamion: will upgrades from sarge to Hoary install udev? | 07:06 |
| Kamion | if you install ubuntu-base, yes | 07:06 |
| Kamion | assuming he has the alsa modules loaded ... | 07:06 |
| pitti | of course | 07:07 |
| pitti | but at least for me Sarge's hotplug should load the modules as well | 07:07 |
| Kamion | yes, true | 07:08 |
| pitti | so probably we should write "ubuntu-base" in very big letters into the upgrading instructions :-) | 07:09 |
| pitti | oh, gotta go... bye everybody | 07:09 |
| amu | lamont_r: so what we'll do ? do you setup and test the new buildsys ? | 07:09 |
| lamont_r | SURE | 07:09 |
| lamont_r | damn caps | 07:09 |
| amu | cool, than just download the latest morphix-tree | 07:10 |
| lamont_r | amu: could you send me an email with an rsync command? :-) | 07:11 |
| lamont_r | or must I mirror it the painful way? | 07:11 |
| amu | wget rocks ;) the other way is, ask alex for an acc | 07:12 |
| Kamion | ubuntu-base> I thought we already did ... | 07:14 |
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| RubenV | hmmm | 08:02 |
| RubenV | updating sed just killed my apt | 08:02 |
| m_tthew | RubenV : see topic | 08:03 |
| RubenV | aha :) | 08:03 |
| RubenV | thankyou | 08:03 |
| RubenV | ah well, this means no updates | 08:03 |
| RubenV | -> more time for study | 08:04 |
| RubenV | you should break stuff more often :) | 08:04 |
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| usual | cp /usr/share/info/sed.info-1.gz /usr/share/info/sed.info.gz | 08:05 |
| usual | fix for sed | 08:05 |
| usual | ? | 08:05 |
| usual | according to #debian | 08:05 |
| usual | ahh it works | 08:05 |
| usual | :) | 08:05 |
| infinity | syncing with incoming would work too. | 08:05 |
| usual | yea | 08:06 |
| === kylem [~kyle@CPE0030ab0b413b-CM023469906297.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| === mwh [~mwh@port10.ds1-arve.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| Keybuk | elmo: Package base version not found: ghfaxviewer (0.22.0-4) | 08:14 |
| mwh | Im having some trouble getting java-applets going with mozilla-firefox, but not with mozilla and epiphany, anyone heard about this problem before=? | 08:14 |
| Keybuk | hmm... I really don't know what to do about that | 08:14 |
| Keybuk | s/^elmo/E/ heh | 08:14 |
| Keybuk | snapshot never archived ghfaxviewer_0.22.0-4 | 08:14 |
| Keybuk | E: Package base version not found: lightspeed (1.2-4) | 08:18 |
| Keybuk | another one too | 08:18 |
| kylem | sed fixed would be nice... 8) | 08:32 |
| Kamion | it'll happen, duded | 08:32 |
| Kamion | dude | 08:32 |
| amu | yep ;) | 08:34 |
| === kylem just hacks var/lib/dpkg/info/sed and grumbles about ubuntu maintainers. 8) | ||
| infinity | kylem : Just install the debian package from incoming on ubuntu. Sheesh. :) | 08:35 |
| kylem | <- lazy | 08:36 |
| Kamion | wasn't an Ubuntu maintainer who broke it ... | 08:36 |
| kylem | oh. | 08:36 |
| kylem | who do i castrate? | 08:37 |
| kylem | :) | 08:37 |
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| Kamion | well, Clint broke it in Debian, but it worked for him on sparc; it was a "breaks on buildds" issue | 08:37 |
| kylem | :\ | 08:37 |
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| mxpxpod | could someone with a cd burner test something for me on hoary? | 08:57 |
| ironwolf | whatcha need mxpxpod? | 09:07 |
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| mxpxpod | ironwolf: could you download coaster's latest release, compile and run it to make sure it works on hoary? | 09:09 |
| mxpxpod | ironwolf: I'm not willing to upgrade to hoary if it's going to impede coaster development | 09:09 |
| mxpxpod | ironwolf: http://www.coaster-burn.org/files/coaster/coaster-0.1.2.tar.gz | 09:11 |
| ironwolf | mspxpod: what's coaster do? | 09:13 |
| mxpxpod | ironwolf: write cd's... data-only for now | 09:14 |
| ironwolf | mxpxpod: isn't that just apt-get install coaster ? | 09:15 |
| mxpxpod | ironwolf: I don't think it's in hoary yet.... | 09:15 |
| lupus_ | E: Couldn't find package coaster | 09:15 |
| mxpxpod | ironwolf and lupus_: it's not in hoary/warty... it's a project I'm working on | 09:17 |
| ironwolf | mxpxpod: compiling now.... | 09:18 |
| mxpxpod | ironwolf: awesome | 09:18 |
| mxpxpod | ironwolf: thanks for doing this | 09:19 |
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| fabbione | does anybody know what provides -ldml ? | 09:24 |
| fabbione | soryr | 09:25 |
| fabbione | -ldlm | 09:25 |
| === lamont_r beats xorg | ||
| === martink [~martin@pD9EB29FC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| fabbione | lamont_r: what's the problem now? ;) | 09:26 |
| lamont_r | xorg is d-w libglide3-dev, which fails to install (missing xorg0 | 09:27 |
| fabbione | libglide3-dev (>= 2002.04.10-7) [alpha amd64 i386 ia64] | 09:27 |
| lamont_r | on ia64 | 09:28 |
| fabbione | but libglide3 cannot know about xorg... if there is no xorg | 09:28 |
| fabbione | it would pull in xfree86 build-deps | 09:28 |
| lamont_r | libglide3: Depends: libx11-6 but it is not installable or | 09:28 |
| lamont_r | xlibs (> 4.1.0) but it is not going to be installed | 09:28 |
| lamont_r | Depends: libxext6 but it is not installable or | 09:28 |
| lamont_r | xlibs (> 4.1.0) but it is not going to be installed | 09:28 |
| fabbione | E: Couldn't find package libglide3-dev | 09:28 |
| fabbione | this is the last error you get | 09:29 |
| lamont_r | of course, once xfree86 finishes building... | 09:29 |
| lamont_r | could just be a time thing | 09:29 |
| fabbione | hmmm | 09:29 |
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| lamont_r | lib64/libdlm.so.0 libs/libdlm0 | 09:29 |
| fabbione | at what phase are you now? | 09:29 |
| lamont_r | 3 | 09:30 |
| lamont_r | is filling the archive | 09:30 |
| fabbione | make sence | 09:30 |
| fabbione | lvm2 is missing a build dep | 09:30 |
| fabbione | on libdlm0 | 09:31 |
| fabbione | -dev | 09:31 |
| lamont_r | libdlm-dev | 09:31 |
| fabbione | yeah that one | 09:31 |
| fabbione | ok.. bug has been reported already | 09:32 |
| fabbione | http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=281433 | 09:32 |
| fabbione | this is interesting :-) | 09:32 |
| === lamont_r grumbles at his home connectivity | ||
| fabbione | ./main/binary-sparc/: New 1314kB 1129 files 496MB 11s | 09:36 |
| fabbione | ./main/source/: 2 pkgs in 0s | 09:36 |
| fabbione | i love this :P | 09:36 |
| fabbione | lamont_r: unknown/silo_1.4.8-1 [-:uncompiled] | 09:37 |
| fabbione | what was the trick to switch from unknown to whatever it really is? | 09:38 |
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| lamont_r | fabbione: overrides file, or fix the ^*_& package | 09:39 |
| === spotter [~spotter@dyn-wireless-244-172.dyn.columbia.edu] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| fabbione | lamont_r: ok :-) | 09:39 |
| spotter | seb128: the evolution panel problem isn't fixed | 09:39 |
| fabbione | thanks | 09:39 |
| spotter | it now just references evolution-2.2 | 09:40 |
| lamont_r | fabbione: it | 09:40 |
| spotter | it should be just evolution | 09:40 |
| lamont_r | s an archive thing, not a buildd thing | 09:40 |
| spotter | what happens w/ evolution-2.4 | 09:40 |
| seb128 | spotter: there is no evolution.desktop | 09:40 |
| fabbione | lamont_r: yes.. i just didn't bother to create an override file | 09:41 |
| lamont_r | me neither. :-) | 09:41 |
| fabbione | lamont_r: it was just to schedule it before other packages | 09:41 |
| spotter | seb128: there should be, and that should be what's in the panel by default | 09:41 |
| spotter | otherwise upgrades are going to be a bitch w/ each release | 09:41 |
| lamont_r | could always shut down the buildd, take it, and then manually sbuild it before starting back up the buildd... :-p | 09:42 |
| seb128 | spotter: not sure | 09:42 |
| fabbione | lamont_r: ehehe | 09:42 |
| fabbione | lamont_r: that's cheating :P | 09:42 |
| spotter | just my not so humble opinion, take it as you will. | 09:42 |
| lamont_r | fabbione: nah - that's _EFFICIENCY_ :-) | 09:42 |
| fabbione | rotlf | 09:42 |
| spotter | seb128: I'm just annoyed w/ it as its constantly crashing on me | 09:42 |
| fabbione | time to get some food | 09:43 |
| fabbione | thanks lamont | 09:43 |
| fabbione | later fellas | 09:43 |
| seb128 | spotter: the problem is the way to handle the // installation of differents version of evolution | 09:43 |
| lamont_r | note also that our wanna-build isn't necessarily getting universe/multiverse (if present) after main, even. - the DC wanna-build has the config to do that | 09:43 |
| seb128 | spotter: like 1.4 and 1.5 were // installable, so have only one .desktop is not optimal | 09:43 |
| spotter | seb128: the way I view it | 09:44 |
| spotter | evolution.desktop == default | 09:44 |
| spotter | i.e. install 2 | 09:44 |
| spotter | evolution-2.2, which is in menu and autobuilt | 09:44 |
| spotter | hmm | 09:44 |
| spotter | never mind | 09:44 |
| spotter | debian seems to handle it fine | 09:45 |
| seb128 | debian doesn't have a launcher in the panel :p | 09:45 |
| spotter | default evo (2.0) installs as evolution | 09:45 |
| seb128 | same here | 09:45 |
| spotter | seb128: so defualt evolution.desktop should be what ever is your default | 09:45 |
| spotter | if you want another evo installed, it installs a versioned evo | 09:45 |
| spotter | .desktop | 09:45 |
| spotter | i.e. on my laptop b4 it died I had 2.0 and 2.2 runnable | 09:46 |
| seb128 | you want to set an alternative on the desktop file ? | 09:46 |
| spotter | no alternative | 09:46 |
| seb128 | there is no other way to have the same file in 2 packages | 09:46 |
| spotter | why do you need the same file in 2 packages? | 09:46 |
| spotter | are there 2 evo's installable in ubuntu? | 09:46 |
| seb128 | not atm, but that could happen | 09:46 |
| spotter | ok, so you just control which is considered default | 09:47 |
| spotter | if user wants to use non default, that's their choice | 09:47 |
| seb128 | how do you set the default ? | 09:47 |
| spotter | you do | 09:47 |
| spotter | aka ubuntu | 09:47 |
| seb128 | ie: 1.4 and 1.5 .. 1.4 has the evolution.desktop | 09:47 |
| spotter | yes, as that was stable | 09:47 |
| seb128 | and then 1.5 -> 2.0 and 2.0 should have the .desktop | 09:47 |
| spotter | when 1.5 went stable to 2.0, 1.4 disappeared | 09:47 |
| spotter | i.e. there's evolution and evolution-unstable (aka evolution2.2) | 09:48 |
| seb128 | yeah, could be in this way | 09:48 |
| fabbione | lamont_r: yes i know. i configured only main atm | 09:48 |
| seb128 | much easy to just change the panel link :) | 09:48 |
| fabbione | (food isn't ready yet) | 09:48 |
| lamont_r | fabbione: yeah | 09:48 |
| lamont_r | ia64 buildd's are into universe | 09:48 |
| seb128 | spotter: what's the big deal to have the default in the panel ? | 09:48 |
| spotter | seb128: but sucks for users ugrading who dont know and just know after an upgrade it doesnt work anymore | 09:48 |
| fabbione | lamont_r: as i was writing yesterday at the meeting, i don't have enough processing power for universe | 09:49 |
| spotter | seb128: when users upgrade from warty to hoary, their evolution panel icon wont work anymore | 09:49 |
| seb128 | spotter: yeah, but hoary is a devel branch, don't worry it'll be fine before the release whatever is the fix | 09:49 |
| spotter | unsure it's possible to fix w/o ugliness | 09:49 |
| spotter | what I'm proposing is a way to think about this for the future | 09:50 |
| spotter | no .desktop entry should have a versioned filename | 09:50 |
| seb128 | some people want 2.1 in the panel/menu | 09:50 |
| seb128 | why not having both version here if both version are installable in // ? | 09:51 |
| spotter | users can still do that | 09:51 |
| fabbione | lamont_r: but if the port will be accepted, Mark will buy buildds | 09:51 |
| fabbione | ok now food is ready | 09:51 |
| spotter | but ubuntu's supported is just one | 09:51 |
| fabbione | bye :-) | 09:51 |
| spotter | i.e. does ubuntu support courier? | 09:51 |
| spotter | even though that can be installed | 09:51 |
| lamont_r | fabbione: right | 09:51 |
| spotter | they support postfix | 09:51 |
| jdub | morning | 09:55 |
| Keybuk | jdub: Good Morning. Today is Boomtime, the 30th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3170. You have no new messages. You have no appointments. | 09:57 |
| lamont_r | Today is Sweetmorn, the 29th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3170 | 09:58 |
| lamont_r | Keybuk: wassup with your calendar? | 09:58 |
| Keybuk | lamont_r: it's the 17th today ... | 09:58 |
| lamont_r | same here | 09:58 |
| Keybuk | actually, for jdub it's the 18th | 09:58 |
| lamont_r | doh | 09:58 |
| Keybuk | :) | 09:59 |
| mako | people are totally unjustified in calling ubuntu the "debian-based distro with the funny name" | 10:00 |
| mako | http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=independence | 10:01 |
| mako | BEERnix? | 10:02 |
| mako | overclockix?! | 10:02 |
| Keybuk | "Debian" itself is a pretty funny name, when you think about it | 10:03 |
| Keybuk | people are just used to it | 10:03 |
| mako | Keybuk: not nearly as funny as beernix :) | 10:03 |
| mako | or "penguin sleuth" | 10:03 |
| Keybuk | In fact, Linux is reasonably silly | 10:03 |
| Keybuk | (and has equal problems with people pronouncing it correctly :p) | 10:04 |
| mako | right, i think ubuntu belongs in the class of debian and linux | 10:04 |
| mako | basically whimsical sounding names that gain a meaning and seem natural later for the vast majority of people | 10:04 |
| Keybuk | at least "Ubuntu" is actually a word in a widely-spoken language | 10:04 |
| mako | i have now seen ubuntu spelled with every possible vowel in the last letter | 10:04 |
| jdub | "widely" | 10:04 |
| mako | jdub: compared to cornish, sure | 10:04 |
| Keybuk | of course, they could be referring to "Warty Warthog" as the funny name | 10:04 |
| Keybuk | and they've got us by both balls, there | 10:05 |
| mako | linux loco! | 10:05 |
| mako | or, BIG LINUX | 10:05 |
| mako | (all caps) | 10:05 |
| Keybuk | FAT LINUX! | 10:06 |
| mako | yeah, they're just inviting a BIGGER LINUX with that name | 10:06 |
| spotter | mako: did you ever find a place to host that event you asked the acm about? | 10:06 |
| mako | spotter: nope, it was too bad | 10:06 |
| mako | spotter: it was super last minute | 10:06 |
| mako | spotter: it was a bad combination of me just moving here and it being last minute | 10:06 |
| spotter | so it wasn't held? | 10:06 |
| mako | spotter: no organized talk | 10:07 |
| spotter | so you live at the med school? | 10:07 |
| mako | spotter: yep | 10:07 |
| spotter | got to love the heights | 10:07 |
| mako | spotter: you are at columbia? | 10:07 |
| === spotter points mako to /whois shaya | ||
| spotter | are | 10:07 |
| spotter | argh | 10:07 |
| === spotter is now known as shaya | ||
| shaya | that would work now | 10:08 |
| mako | true enough, morningside? | 10:08 |
| shaya | that's where school is, home is washington | 10:08 |
| mako | you coming tonight? | 10:08 |
| mako | shaya: dc or state? | 10:08 |
| shaya | heights | 10:08 |
| mako | haha | 10:08 |
| mako | ok, i'm from washington STATE, living in washington HEIGHTS | 10:08 |
| mako | i do love washington heights | 10:09 |
| mako | you coming to the talk tonight? | 10:09 |
| shaya | i'm from dc suburbs, spent summer in the state working for the man | 10:09 |
| mako | shaya: www.nylug.org | 10:10 |
| shaya | yes, but you go to restaurants | 10:10 |
| shaya | problematic for me | 10:10 |
| mako | shaya: it may be too late to rsvp for their (slightly authoritarian) rsvp system | 10:11 |
| shaya | yes | 10:11 |
| shaya | it is | 10:11 |
| shaya | saw your blog post | 10:11 |
| shaya | it was closed when you posted it | 10:11 |
| mako | blast | 10:11 |
| mako | there is this "stammtisch" thing | 10:11 |
| shaya | stammtisch? | 10:11 |
| shaya | sounds like a yiddish word | 10:11 |
| mako | at 8:30.. keysigning and hanging out in the bar across the street | 10:11 |
| mako | last monght i missed the meeting but just went to the hang-out | 10:12 |
| mako | last month even | 10:12 |
| === shaya points to why food is a problem | ||
| shaya | http://yucs.org/~spotter/scary-me.jpg | 10:12 |
| shaya | come dressed like that and I wouldn't fit in :) | 10:12 |
| mako | i think it would be fine | 10:13 |
| mako | but if you don't make it tonight, we can get together some other time if you'd like | 10:14 |
| mako | there is a talk at the morningside campus i'm going to tomorrow on free software stuff | 10:14 |
| mako | http://www.columbia.edu/cu/arts/dmc/docs/lectureseries.html | 10:14 |
| === Cube-ness [~james@170-215-49-81.dsl2.elk.ca.frontiernet.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| seb128 | jdub: here ? | 10:30 |
| Cube-ness | any estimation on when sed will be fixed? | 10:34 |
| seb128 | soon | 10:36 |
| Cube-ness | hehe.. cool | 10:38 |
| sivang | Cube-ness : Quick workaround for the sed problem in hoary: edit /var/lib/dpkg/info/sed.postinst as root, add "exit 0" in the second line... | 10:40 |
| === calc [~ccheney@ip70-185-2-220.ma.dl.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| ironwolf | or add warty to sources.list and apt-get install sed/warty ;) | 10:42 |
| Cube-ness | ok | 10:45 |
| hornbeck | sivang: Under the #! /bin/sh -e? | 10:46 |
| hornbeck | or under pkg=sed | 10:46 |
| sivang | under pkg=sed, | 10:46 |
| sivang | worked for me | 10:46 |
| hornbeck | ok thanks | 10:46 |
| hornbeck | that would be the fourth line | 10:47 |
| hornbeck | sivang: thanks that just helped me :-) | 10:47 |
| sivang | hornbeck : no prob. | 10:48 |
| === carlos [~carlos@69.Red-80-33-181.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| seb128 | elmo_away: gpdf sync please | 10:52 |
| Keybuk | ^^^^ | 10:55 |
| Keybuk | IRC is a lossy protocol, you should probably IM him or send him a mail :p | 10:56 |
| lamont_r | Keybuk: but elmo_away is all seeing. :-) | 10:56 |
| lamont_r | although elmo_away may be his home instance, and that'll be really slow to respond... :( | 10:57 |
| lamont_r | prolly | 10:58 |
| Keybuk | I fear anyone who can keep up with scrollback these days | 11:00 |
| Keybuk | I know elmo's bitched in the past about people leaving messages on channel that he's never seen | 11:00 |
| lamont_r | yeah | 11:00 |
| lamont_r | it's good for messages that you don't really care if they get, but not good for critical messages (those I send a follow-up email for..) | 11:01 |
| Cube-ness | question about sound in hoary.. while my laptop works fine, this machine makes me kill esd in order for oss sound to work.. is there a better fix? | 11:04 |
| Keybuk | Cube-ness: 1) ask in #ubuntu 2) use esd instead of oss sound | 11:05 |
| Cube-ness | well, a lot of apps "just use" oss | 11:06 |
| Cube-ness | i asked here because i assumed folks in devel would be more familiar with hoary at this point in time | 11:06 |
| lamont_r | Cube-ness: #ubuntu has _lots_ of devel folks | 11:07 |
| Cube-ness | dont worry, i am not gonn aflood his place with general usage questions.. hehe | 11:07 |
| lamont_r | -devel is for discussing code changes | 11:07 |
| Cube-ness | ok | 11:07 |
| Keybuk | Cube-ness: developers hang out on #ubuntu too ... this channel is for discussion about development, not a place to find the developers | 11:07 |
| Cube-ness | right | 11:07 |
| Keybuk | and the truth is even the developers aren't all-knowing, sometimes a fellow user will have a much better suggestion | 11:08 |
| === daniels [~daniels@george.kkhotels.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| amu | lamont_r: #3046 should i close it ? | 11:14 |
| Keybuk | lamont_r: how far along is it? :p | 11:15 |
| lamont_r | Keybuk: waiting for sync from debian | 11:16 |
| lamont_r | amu: I expect | 11:17 |
| lamont_r | with comments, of course. | 11:17 |
| jdub | seb128: hey hey hey | 11:17 |
| Keybuk | ftp.debian.org still only has 4.1.2-4 | 11:17 |
| lamont_r | like "mirroring the latest packages from morphix and running the script in the chroot as non-root, but allowed sbuild" type commnets | 11:17 |
| lamont_r | Keybuk: the buggy version is 4.1.2-2 | 11:17 |
| Keybuk | so when did -3 or -4 pop into unstable? | 11:18 |
| Keybuk | tonight's dinstall run? | 11:18 |
| amu | lamont_r: thats another one :) he asked about QTparted on the liveCD :) | 11:18 |
| lamont_r | ?? | 11:19 |
| lamont_r | yes | 11:19 |
| lamont_r | Keybuk: yes | 11:19 |
| amu | just look to #3046 | 11:19 |
| Keybuk | elmo's sync runs "daily" I think ... so we should've seen that by now, no? | 11:19 |
| lamont_r | it stalls until after the debian mirrors have time to finish syncing the pulse. | 11:20 |
| seb128 | jdub: why not adding a conflict between gamin and fam ? | 11:20 |
| lamont_r | hence "any time now"... | 11:20 |
| lamont_r | not sure when the sync script runs | 11:20 |
| Keybuk | hmm, last run I see was 22:12 | 11:20 |
| lamont_r | utc? | 11:20 |
| Keybuk | Jackass HTTP Time :p | 11:20 |
| lamont_r | jht. got it. | 11:20 |
| lamont_r | so 8 min ago | 11:20 |
| Keybuk | Last-Modified: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 22:12:20 GMT | 11:21 |
| Keybuk | (on the file it spits for mom) | 11:21 |
| jdub | seb128: because the packaging death squad would have my head :) | 11:22 |
| Keybuk | jdub: can you install them both at the same time? | 11:23 |
| seb128 | jdub: what's the problem with the conflict ? For the moment we only get users with broken system because they have both installed | 11:23 |
| jdub | Keybuk: yes | 11:23 |
| jdub | seb128: no, they only get a broken system if they have fam+libgamin | 11:23 |
| Keybuk | if you install them both at the same time, can apps use one and other apps use the other? | 11:23 |
| jdub | Keybuk: no | 11:23 |
| jdub | Keybuk: libgamin + fam == broken | 11:23 |
| Keybuk | why is it broken? | 11:24 |
| jdub | because they don't talk to each other correctly | 11:24 |
| Keybuk | does libgamin not depend on gamin? | 11:24 |
| seb128 | jdub: fam+gamin with gamin->libgamin0 and conflicts on libfam... you get fam+gamin+libgamin | 11:24 |
| jdub | libgamin recommends gamin | 11:24 |
| seb128 | yeah, but they install gamin, get libgamin0 but fam is not removed | 11:24 |
| Keybuk | if you have libgamin, gamin and fam installed -- is it broken? | 11:24 |
| seb128 | and BOUM | 11:24 |
| seb128 | yes | 11:24 |
| jdub | seb128: fam+gamin+libgamin ought to work...? | 11:24 |
| seb128 | jdub: dunno if it "ought" but it doesn't | 11:25 |
| jdub | Keybuk: if you have libgamin and fam, that is broken to start with | 11:25 |
| seb128 | according to #ubuntu | 11:25 |
| jdub | seb128: ok | 11:25 |
| Keybuk | jdub: but they won't get gamin installed anyway, because the dependency isn't strong enough *shrug* | 11:25 |
| jdub | Keybuk: yes. | 11:25 |
| seb128 | but what's the problem with the conflict between gamin and fam ? | 11:25 |
| Keybuk | seb128: they don't conflict. | 11:26 |
| jdub | seb128: because by definition of the rules, they don't actually 'conflict' | 11:26 |
| Keybuk | they just happen to break each other. | 11:26 |
| shaya | jdub: try installing kde | 11:26 |
| seb128 | Keybuk: gamin depends on libgamin0 and gamin+libgamin0+fam=broken ... seems to be a conflict case for me | 11:26 |
| shaya | it's in universe, but a pita to install from aptitude | 11:26 |
| Keybuk | seb128: no, that's not a conflict. | 11:26 |
| jdub | shaya: why? | 11:26 |
| shaya | it complains for some reason | 11:26 |
| Keybuk | conflict is "you must utterly remove this package before you even unpack me" | 11:26 |
| seb128 | Keybuk: I've no problem to use a conflit to avoid breakages :p | 11:27 |
| shaya | try installing konq frm aptitude and you'll see | 11:27 |
| jdub | shaya: why should i try installing it? :) | 11:27 |
| shaya | dont install it | 11:27 |
| shaya | just try in aptitude | 11:27 |
| jdub | shaya: i don't use aptitude, we don't support kde... | 11:27 |
| Keybuk | seb128: and you're one of the primary reasons that apt and dpkg sometimes hang or fuck up doing upgrades :p | 11:27 |
| lamont_r | keybuk: if it synced at :12, then it should show in w-b in about 6 min, and be in the archive in 36 | 11:27 |
| shaya | jdub: true, but you do provide it in universe | 11:27 |
| seb128 | jdub: they'll get me first apparently :p | 11:27 |
| === seb128 runs | ||
| shaya | one would think stuff in universe should be installable | 11:27 |
| jdub | shaya: universe == unsupported -> if there are bugs, they're not on my priority list | 11:28 |
| shaya | that's a different story | 11:28 |
| seb128 | Keybuk: right ... but what's the right solution in this case ? I'm not forcing an upgrade this time :) | 11:28 |
| Keybuk | what's in universe, built. there's no other guarantees | 11:28 |
| shaya | i had no interest in kde, just ran into it as needed kde-dev stuff to build redhat-artwork | 11:28 |
| lamont_r | shaya: if there's something in universe that is not built or not installable, we welcome patches.... | 11:28 |
| shaya | what can I say, I like bluecurve | 11:29 |
| lamont_r | shaya: likewise, if it's circular build-deps holding it up, please let me know... | 11:29 |
| jdub | seb128: i'll double-check with fam/gamin/libgamin | 11:29 |
| Keybuk | seb128: someone actually sitting down and working out what's wrong, would be a good start | 11:29 |
| lamont_r | kde is known to be b0rked on ppc, but is there on i386/amd64 | 11:29 |
| shaya | lamont: I was really confused. aptitude refused to install it, but a plain apt-get install worked fine (without removing anything) | 11:29 |
| lamont_r | interesting - could be a recommended package that's not installable, then | 11:29 |
| Keybuk | shaya: aptitude does that sometimes ... it's a way | 11:29 |
| seb128 | Keybuk,jdub: is there any interest to get gamin AND fam installed ? | 11:29 |
| lamont_r | aptitude (IIRC) likes to install recommended packages by default | 11:30 |
| lamont_r | apt-get doesn't. | 11:30 |
| Keybuk | which is seeded? fam or gamin? | 11:30 |
| shaya | here's something else weird | 11:30 |
| shaya | for konqueror | 11:30 |
| shaya | Depnds: .... kfind | 11:30 |
| shaya | but | 11:30 |
| jdub | seb128: no | 11:30 |
| jdub | Keybuk: gamin | 11:30 |
| shaya | hmm | 11:30 |
| Keybuk | jdub: are either libgamin or libfam seeded? | 11:31 |
| shaya | not anymore | 11:31 |
| shaya | weird | 11:31 |
| Keybuk | does gamin depend on libgamin? | 11:31 |
| jdub | Keybuk: don't think so | 11:31 |
| jdub | yes | 11:31 |
| === mxpxpod [~bryan@mxpxpod.user] has left #ubuntu-devel ["later.."] | ||
| Keybuk | ok | 11:31 |
| jdub | if you have ubuntu-desktop, you'll get gamin | 11:31 |
| Keybuk | so anyone with ubuntu-desktop has gamin and libgamin | 11:31 |
| jdub | but if you upgrade without ubuntu-desktop, you only get libgamin | 11:32 |
| jdub | i know that libgamin+fam is utterly b0rk | 11:32 |
| Keybuk | libgamin functionally-replaces libfam, yes ? | 11:32 |
| jdub | i'm just about to test libgamin+gamin+fam | 11:32 |
| jdub | yes | 11:32 |
| jdub | it's a binary compatible subset | 11:32 |
| Keybuk | does gamin functionally-replace fam? | 11:32 |
| jdub | roughly, but not really :) | 11:32 |
| seb128 | jdub: the trashapplet (at least) is broken with this according to some user | 11:32 |
| Keybuk | do applications depend on libgamin? | 11:33 |
| jdub | gam_server is a user daemon | 11:33 |
| Keybuk | or do they depend on "something that provides libfam" | 11:33 |
| jdub | fam is a global daemon, which can communicate to the outside world, too | 11:33 |
| jdub | atm, gnome-vfs depends on either | 11:33 |
| Keybuk | is libgamin useful without gamin? | 11:34 |
| jdub | to let your program link, sure :) | 11:35 |
| Keybuk | that's not what I asked | 11:35 |
| jdub | but it survives without gamin | 11:35 |
| Keybuk | is there any reason to have libgamin installed without gamin? | 11:35 |
| jdub | generally no | 11:35 |
| jdub | but it depends if you're smoking debian crack or not | 11:35 |
| Keybuk | then why doesn't it depend on gamin? was somebody getting wishy-washy about dependencies? :p | 11:35 |
| jdub | because it doesn't strictly depend on gamin | 11:36 |
| Keybuk | "it absolutely critically needs this package, but you *might not* use that functionality, so it's just a Recommends" | 11:36 |
| jdub | same way that libfam doesn't strictly depend on fam | 11:36 |
| jdub | i just explained that it doesn't absolutely critically need the package | 11:36 |
| Keybuk | libgamin works without gamin? | 11:36 |
| Keybuk | you can use its functionality without gamin installed? | 11:36 |
| jdub | 09:35 < jdub> to let your program link, sure :) | 11:36 |
| jdub | 09:35 < jdub> but it survives without gamin | 11:36 |
| jdub | exactly the same as the libfam/fam relationship | 11:37 |
| Keybuk | so an application can use libgamin without gamin installed? | 11:37 |
| jdub | it will link, yes | 11:37 |
| Keybuk | I didn't ask whether it'd link :op | 11:37 |
| jdub | that's all it does, dude | 11:38 |
| jdub | "using" libgamin is linking to it | 11:38 |
| Keybuk | so what does libgamin do?! | 11:38 |
| jdub | libgamin talks to gamin | 11:38 |
| jdub | that's what it does | 11:38 |
| jdub | software links to libgamin | 11:38 |
| seb128 | :) | 11:38 |
| Keybuk | sure, you call functions in libgamin to use gamin? | 11:38 |
| jdub | yes | 11:38 |
| Keybuk | so if you use libgamin, you *need* gamin installed? | 11:38 |
| jdub | 09:36 < jdub> 09:35 < jdub> but it survives without gamin | 11:38 |
| jdub | 09:37 < jdub> exactly the same as the libfam/fam relationship | 11:38 |
| Keybuk | libgamin should depend on gamin | 11:38 |
| Keybuk | libfam should depend on fam | 11:39 |
| Keybuk | libfam and libgamin functionally-replace each other | 11:39 |
| Keybuk | problem solved | 11:39 |
| lamont_r | jdub: so when do we get a good gnome audio burner?? huh? huh? huh??? | 11:39 |
| Keybuk | if you weren't being so wishy-washy-liberal about your dependencies | 11:39 |
| jdub | i've done what was done with fam | 11:39 |
| ironwolf | lamont_r: I'm working on it. | 11:39 |
| Keybuk | "you don't *need* to eat your dinner ... you could just look at it, sure you'll die, but you don't *need* to eat" | 11:39 |
| jdub | because, in debian mode, this is not a dependency | 11:39 |
| Keybuk | it so is | 11:39 |
| jdub | dude | 11:39 |
| Keybuk | I'd make those dependencies in Debian | 11:39 |
| jdub | YOU DO NOT NEED GAMIN | 11:40 |
| Keybuk | there are far too many Recommends, again especially in the GNOME and KDE camps, which should be Depends. | 11:40 |
| jdub | lamont_r: coaster's doing something about it, which we may get in hoary | 11:40 |
| Keybuk | ok, so if you don't need gamin, it doesn't matter that it breaks :p | 11:40 |
| === carlos [~carlos@69.Red-80-33-181.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| jdub | that's not what breaks | 11:41 |
| jdub | if you'd been listening | 11:41 |
| seb128 | jdub: I don't get the problem with nautilus beeing slow without gamin ... which part is slowing it ? | 11:41 |
| Keybuk | The `Depends' field should be used if the depended-on package is | 11:41 |
| Keybuk | required for the depending package to provide a significant | 11:41 |
| Keybuk | amount of functionality. | 11:41 |
| jdub | seb128: i'll figure out what's going on with libgamin/fam/gamin, and get back to you | 11:41 |
| seb128 | jdub: ie: is it a nautilus or gamin issue ? | 11:41 |
| seb128 | jdub: ok, thanks | 11:42 |
| jdub | seb128: libgamin issue, i believe | 11:42 |
| Keybuk | I'm not trying to be a pain here, I'm actually trying to help | 11:42 |
| seb128 | ok, I think so, nautilus has not changed and it used to work fine with fam | 11:42 |
| Keybuk | conflicting something as low-down in the chain as fam could result in APT/dpkg needing to deinstall half the packages just to install gamin | 11:42 |
| seb128 | speaking about nautilus I've tested the bonobo-slay branch today, it's almost fully working :) | 11:42 |
| jdub | seb128: rocking :-) | 11:43 |
| jdub | seb128: was going to ask ;) | 11:43 |
| jdub | it's going to be sweet | 11:43 |
| Keybuk | conflicts are not fluffy, they are brutal | 11:43 |
| Keybuk | gamin could Conflict&Replace&Provide fam | 11:44 |
| Keybuk | or you could up the Recommends to Dependencies, so force fam's removal that way | 11:44 |
| seb128 | how that forces the removal ? | 11:45 |
| Keybuk | which? | 11:45 |
| seb128 | <Keybuk> or you could up the Recommends to Dependencies, so force fam's removal that way | 11:46 |
| Keybuk | gamin is seeded, so would be installed as a dependency of ubuntu-desktop | 11:46 |
| seb128 | you still need a Conflicts right ? | 11:46 |
| Keybuk | libgamin0 would be installed as a dependency of gamin | 11:46 |
| Keybuk | libfam0 would be removed as a Conflict&Replace&Provide of libgamin0 | 11:46 |
| Keybuk | fam would be removed as it depends on libfam0 | 11:46 |
| seb128 | ok, you need the Conflict&Replace&Provide of libgamin0 | 11:46 |
| sivang | seb128 : could you please apply the fix to yelp (#3557) so doc team people could use yelp on hoary? or do you prefer we'd just fetch the package from warty? | 11:46 |
| Keybuk | no Conflict. | 11:46 |
| Keybuk | (Conflict&Replace&Provide is magic, it's not an ordinary Conflict) | 11:47 |
| seb128 | Keybuk: better to Replaces&Provide too than only Conflict ? | 11:47 |
| seb128 | oh ok | 11:47 |
| Keybuk | seb128: hell yes. | 11:47 |
| seb128 | I'll remember that for the next time :) | 11:47 |
| === elmo [~james@george.kkhotels.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-devel | ||
| Keybuk | Conflicts & Replaces means "absolutely replaces the functionality of" | 11:47 |
| Keybuk | Conflicts: foo | 11:48 |
| Keybuk | means that you must prerm, remove and postrm 'foo' (utterly remove) before you even *unpack* the package | 11:49 |
| Keybuk | given that APT/dpkg generally unpack everything at once, this is bad | 11:49 |
| Keybuk | whereas | 11:49 |
| Keybuk | Conflicts: foo | 11:49 |
| Keybuk | Replaces: foo | 11:49 |
| Keybuk | Provides: foo | 11:49 |
| Keybuk | is a "total replacement for foo", it can be safely swapped at any point | 11:49 |
| sivang | seb128 : (I remember you told me that you might prefer to wait for 2.10 :) | 11:50 |
| seb128 | hum ok, good to know | 11:51 |
| seb128 | Keybuk: thanks :) | 11:51 |
| seb128 | sivang: I was hoppy for a 2.9.2 upstream soon in fact, but if somebody need it I'll apply the patch tomorrow | 11:51 |
| Keybuk | but that's a per-package thing... Provides: foo (<< 1.2) is illegal :p | 11:52 |
| sivang | seb128 : thank you! | 11:52 |
| seb128 | usually I only use Replaces/Provides for name changes | 11:52 |
| seb128 | and brutal Conflict for something like fam/gamin | 11:52 |
| seb128 | I'll try to think about this next time :) | 11:53 |
| Keybuk | Conflict on its own means one thing, and one thing only. The two packages contain a file of the same name. | 11:53 |
| Keybuk | That's it. | 11:53 |
| Keybuk | Using it for *anything* else, will produce bad behaviour. | 11:53 |
| seb128 | I used to use that as a "can't work together" | 11:54 |
| jdub | i did a c/r/p for polypaudio | 11:54 |
| jdub | because it has an esd file in it :) | 11:54 |
| jdub | and really does functionally c/r/p esound | 11:54 |
| Keybuk | jdub: yeah, I'd be happy if gamin c/r/p fam | 11:54 |
| Keybuk | seb128: that's a *really* bad thing to do, because conflicts act before unpacking -- they're as evil as pre-depends | 11:55 |
| Keybuk | I'm going to RSN add "Breaks" to dpkg -- which is a field for "doesn't play well together" | 11:55 |
| seb128 | yeah, I don't really know how apt internals work, thanks for the explanations | 11:58 |
| jdub | so the consensus is c/r/p fam in gamin? | 11:58 |
| seb128 | somebody should write a "why Conflicts is bad" document, I'm sure that a lot of the maintainers don't know a lot about how apt handle that :) | 11:59 |
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