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skyridersivang: hi12:37
sivanghey skyrider! what's up?12:38
sivangdoesn anybody have idea if when setting up apt pinning, I need to put in /etc/apt/apt.conf the ditro name in caps ?12:39
sivanglike Warty , or warty?12:39
sivangplovs_work : ? :)12:39
skyridersivang: it doesn't matter IIRC12:40
sivangskyrider : ok thanks.12:40
skyriderI've published some photos of Ukraine you asked12:40
skyridersivang: I may be wrong ;)12:40
skyridersivang: you can see this photos at http://kid.stu.cn.ua/~skyrider/photos/ukraine/12:40
skyridersivang: it's just random photos from different places in my country: cities, villages etc.12:41
sivangskyrider : nice!12:41
sivangthank you alot12:42
sivanghttp://kid.stu.cn.ua/~skyrider/photos/ukraine/img010.jpeg.html << AMAZING VIEW12:42
skyridersivang: you are welcome!12:43
skyridersivang: you wouldn't believe but that photo I've made in the center of my city %-)12:43
sivangyou know, we should maybe start some page on the wiki, each team and some personal photos of the members, their origin etc, care for the people part in Ubuntu :)12:43
skyridersivang: good idea12:45
skyridersivang: BTW what's about irc logs?12:49
sivanghmmm good you reminded me, let's ping mako :) again - I'll email him if can't get answer today. Sorry about that!12:49
skyriderBTW mako is awesome guy12:50
skyriderI've read his article today12:50
skyriderI'm impressed12:50
sivangHe a great guy, yes12:51
skyriderI lake that essey very much12:51
skyriders/lake/like/ :)12:51
skyriders/essey/essay/ :)12:52
skyriderTo much mistakes for one sentence12:53
sivangno prob01:04
sivangskyrider : maybe you should mail him directly?01:11
sivangI know he wouldn't mind.01:11
skyridersivang: OK. I'll mail him tomorrow.01:13
sivangok, great. sorry for not being that good service to you.01:14
skyridereverything great, Sivan. Forget it.01:14
=== skyrider always types 'make' instead of 'mako'. Bad habit ;)
sivangmaybe you just compile too much code..:)01:21
skyridersivang: You absolutely right! :)01:23
=== trickie [~trickie@203-217-34-161.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc
robertj_Hornbeck around?02:51
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(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) robertj_: I am now05:56
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) for a second at least05:56
=== maskie [~maskie@196-30-110-214.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc
(hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) good night06:54
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pl0vshi guys11:55
ChrisHpl0vs: hey :)12:09
ChrisHpl0vs: did you read my question yesterday about your work on the faq-guide.xml?12:09
pl0vsChrisH, yes, writing an answer right now, give me 10 minutes, more12:10
pl0vsChrisH, good question btw12:10
ChrisHUhm? 10 Minutes? Just expected a yes/no. :)12:11
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sivangMorning all12:19
ChrisHsivang: hey, master...12:19
sivangChrisH : Hi, What's happenin? :)12:19
sivangI've seen somewhere a call for a meeting, I don't think it would server us too good in this, we can straight up the new format matter over ML, IMHO :)12:22
pl0vsok, mailed my reply12:22
ChrisHsivang: the little one is about to go to bed, my anti-headache pills are starting to be effective, I'm working on UTF-8 in irssi and wonder whether (I|we)'ll adopt horny's TOC structure12:22
pl0vsChrisH, i'm in favor12:23
ChrisHIf we have a majority of 3 we can start. ;)12:23
ChrisHpl0vs: Is your faq-guide.xml anything different than the faq.xml regarding the contents (not the chunked structure)?12:23
pl0vsanybody knows a thing about man=pages here?12:23
pl0vsmine is more up-to-date12:24
sivangpl0vs : what do you like to know?12:24
pl0vsit is faq.xml plus something12:24
pl0vssivang, everything, in five minutes if you can12:24
pl0vshow do i edit them?12:25
pl0vswhere is the source?12:25
pl0vsis it docbook?\12:25
sivangpl0vs : let's see, gemme a sec.12:25
sivanghe hey12:25
sivangsec = 10 minutes12:25
sivangin sivang's time :)12:26
pl0vsah, ok12:26
ChrisHCould you all commit your changes? I could start to change the TOC structure.12:26
pl0vsChrisH, you're talking about the book?12:26
ChrisHBut the book in the /faq tree. ;)12:26
pl0vsChrisH, and it will all be docbook?12:27
ChrisHYes. Basically it's your work just changed to what John posted.12:27
pl0vsand you want to redo the faq to a book (just asking so i understand)12:28
ChrisHpl0vs: From what I understood: we use our current FAQ in John's /faq repository, call it "User's Guide" or "Handbook", keep your <book> structure and just put the current content in the section structure as proposed by John12:29
pl0vsChrisH, ok, fair enough12:30
ChrisHpl0vs: Lead to a lot of confusion yesterday. :)12:30
pl0vsit's not so important how we go about solving stuff, many roads lead to the same place12:31
pl0vswe just need a clear path ahead of us12:31
ChrisHAnd I think that this time we are close enough to it.12:32
sivangjust send me updates of what we are deciding :)12:36
pl0vsChrisH,  what do you plan on doing, incorperating wiki-stuff or writing all from scratch?12:37
ChrisHFor the protocol: "While sivan attended we decided to permanently block cenerentola, ask Mark for free beer and switched the Handbook from DocBook/XML to Microsoft Word 2004."12:37
pl0vsthree out of four is ok12:38
pl0vs cenerentola has been trolling?12:38
ChrisHpl0vs: I'd like to take the currently articles we already collected in the FAQ and just not use the questions as a title but rather use the structure John proposed on the M.12:38
ChrisHpl0vs: Has he ever been doing anything else but trolling? ;)12:38
pl0vsChrisH, agree on the toc12:39
pl0vsChrisH, do we have an op for the chNNEL?12:39
pl0vssorry, caps-lock12:39
ChrisHpl0vs: sivan and me currently... but you should also get the privs... moment12:39
pl0vsno prob, just so somebody trustworthy has it12:40
pl0vsChrisH, will you work on faq-guide or copy it to a new doc?12:41
ChrisHpl0vs: I'd use your current chunked files.12:41
ChrisHpl0vs: Then we can distribute the pieces among us and start working without too much interference.12:42
ChrisHpl0vs: Could you register with nickserv so I can give you op privs?12:43
pl0vsgive it to plovs, not pl0vs12:43
sivangpl0vs : I need to see how to handle the already "FAQ" in the support area, I had trouble trying to remove it / change it.12:43
pl0vsor plovs_work12:44
pl0vsi am not at my own machine atm12:44
sivangIt was added to the support section by mean of the CMS,12:44
ChrisHpl0vs: is plovs registered?12:44
ChrisHpl0vs: why don't you use the same nick all the time?12:44
pl0vsbut not atm, i have network problems at home12:44
sivangnot an HTML upload - so, we would also be needing to check if we can TOC it, or have the TOC already made inside the HTML.12:44
pl0vssivang, if we call this the ubuntu-guide then we can leave the faq? no?12:46
sivangI am going to try to erase it all together, or move it somwhere else, or opena new FAQ section :)12:47
sivanghave we taken anything from there into the new , current DocBook FAQ?12:48
pl0vssivang, everything12:48
pl0vssivang, we just must make sure not to break too many links12:50
pl0vspeople have been linking to faq-answers12:50
sivangok, no problem. then a new section that is.12:51
pl0vssivang, the curse of backwards-compatibility12:52
ChrisHEverybody in favor that I change the structure now? We would get a little chaos if you have uncommited changes.12:52
sivangwhat structure? 12:52
sivangof what?12:52
=== ChrisH beats sivang
=== sivang ouches
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pl0vsChrisH, go ahead12:54
ChrisHpl0vs: Great. :)12:54
pl0vsChrisH, http://images.ucomics.com/comics/ch/1993/ch931121.gif12:54
sivangChrisH : heheh12:54
pl0vsChrisH, for the parents among us12:54
=== sivang LOLs
ChrisHpl0vs: :)12:54
ChrisHpl0vs: I like another strip, too... Calvin: "Dad, think of a number and I'll guess." Dad: "got it." Calvin: "Is it 239879?" Dad: "By God, how did you do that?" Calvin: "Hey, you are trying to get rid of me, right?" Dad: "No, you are psychic. Go show your mother." ;)12:55
pl0vsChrisH, yes, calvin and hobbes is probably my fav12:56
ChrisHmine, too. Already ordered the last book I don't know for christmas. It's mandatory lecture in bed. :)12:56
ChrisHEven if you are not parenting...12:56
pl0vsChrisH, my brother showed them to me for the first time, but now he doesn't think it is so funny anymore (he as a real calvin himself now)12:57
sivangI dind't get the last one :(12:57
ChrisHsivang: Calvin wants to play number-guessing with his dad. And the dad just wants to get rid of Calvin. :)12:57
pl0vssivang, subscribe to:  http://www.livejournal.com/users/calnhobbes/data/atom12:57
pl0vsi have it in my bloglines12:58
ChrisHpl0vs: is the <!ENTITY... way the only one to include other files?01:09
pl0vsafaik yes01:10
pl0vsbut i just copied it from somewhere else01:11
ChrisHHmmm. I'm thinking about splitting the parts into different directories. But if I wanted to include sections from there we would still need to define all includes in the main file as opposed to the certain parts.01:11
pl0vslook in the gnome userguide, they have folders for the pics01:12
pl0vsbut all defines are int he first file yes01:12
sivang_awaypl0vs : apt-get source hello, then look inside the /man dir01:27
sivangpl0vs : here?02:38
sivangI just found out how to edit those manpages.02:38
pl0vsnice, how02:39
ChrisHsivang: vim?02:46
sivangChrisH : sorry, not "how to edit"02:52
sivangwhere to find them02:52
ChrisHah... :)02:52
sivanghow to submit these to get included in the read package02:52
sivangI will do a quick wiki page in it, under DocDevel or something.02:52
sivanghmmm I should also update it to reflect oou new goal change.02:53
=== hornbeck [~hornbeck@adsl-69-155-172-150.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc
hornbeckChrisH: are you here?03:34
sivangeverybody please take alook03:41
hornbecksivang: what has been going on, I thought major discussions was going take part on the mailing list?03:45
sivanghornbeck : I don't reckon too much :) Have you seen any apparent changes?03:45
sivangmy wiki page is just some try to explain how to go about the fixing of man pages.03:45
hornbeckhold one sec03:46
hornbeckI am trying to find it in the log03:46
hornbeckChrisH: If we have a majority of 3 we can start. ;)03:46
hornbeckhe said that last night about the book03:46
hornbeckthat is not right, that was never discussed03:47
hornbeckeverything must go through the ML03:47
hornbeck(by the way this is about the book being moved)03:47
sivangI don't think he has done too much already, and if he did, it's only affecting his files, I'03:48
sivangsure he would discuss it more before he does antyhing widely03:48
sivangChrisH : you here?03:48
hornbeckhe is not answering03:48
hornbeckwhy do you not think a meeting is a good idea?03:49
sivangwell, it can be a good idea, but why can't we just decided and direct thigns over ML?03:52
sivangno matter how we try to make the meeting accesible by time,03:52
sivangthe ML has far more broad spread then the irc meetings :)03:53
hornbeckright, I understand that03:53
hornbeckbut mailings do not hold the face to face feel of a meeting03:53
hornbeckyou cannot get someone's right off reaction on a mailing list03:53
hornbeckthats fine03:54
sivangwell, I really don't mind the meeting,03:54
hornbeckI must say though, that I am against what ChrisH is doing right now03:54
sivangbut I would like to see the oppinions of more people..shame nobody responds to much on the ML03:54
hornbeckI will post to the list about it03:54
sivangnot a problem, you deserve the right to sound your voice - and I don't think he is doing anything wrong, if you disagree just tell how, and make it clear how you want ot make it to go,.03:55
sivangwhat do you not agree with exactly?03:55
hornbeckhim and I discussed everyone's involvment in the book03:55
hornbeckthan it appeared he did not know the book existed03:56
hornbeckthan he decided that the faq would become the book03:57
hornbeckthat the work myself and a few others have done on the book would be discarded03:57
hornbeckand just what him and plovs have done will be added till everyone else starts helping03:57
hornbeckall of this without everyone's approval03:58
hornbeckthis is something that should be decided by the team03:58
hornbeckhis commint about  "If we have a majority of 3 we can start. ;)"03:59
hornbeckthat is what really makes me mad03:59
hornbeckwe where in the middle of discussion yesterday when he disappeared, so I figured we would take it back up today04:00
hornbecknot him decide to proceed without the team saying yes04:00
hornbeckthat is basicly taking all the work that has been done offline "faq/book" discarding one and completly butchering the other04:00
sivangI think he wants to add the FAQ as a section UNDER the book :)04:01
sivangI'm sure this is what he meant.04:01
sivangwe talked about it also04:01
sivangTHe idea is the adtop the book,04:01
sivangadd sections to it,04:01
hornbeckI am hoping this is all a misunderstanding :-)04:02
sivangyes it is, I'm sure it is.04:02
sivang<hornbeck> his commint about  "If we have a majority of 3 we can start. ;)"04:02
sivang                                                                                ^^^04:02
sivangnotice the twink sign?04:02
sivangit was a joke04:02
hornbeckI hope so04:02
hornbeckhe was pushing very hard yesterday for everything to be put into /faq on the svn server04:03
hornbeckthere is no reason to when /book is already there04:03
hornbeckwith the format and everything04:03
hornbeckI do not want /faq to be gotten rid of04:03
hornbeckdoes that make since?04:04
hornbeckwe already have a /book04:04
hornbecksivang: you leave?04:22
hornbeckwell I am going to work on a car04:25
ChrisHSorry... needed to keep the baby busy.04:32
ChrisHI'm about to commit the new structure. Just a few minutes.04:32
pl0vsChrisH, did you read the log? hornbeck does not seem too pleased04:40
ChrisHOops. No, I didn't.04:40
ChrisHBut I asked him about four times how we are going to do it. And up to the last I didn't get him clearly. I asked Sivan and he couldn't tell me either.04:40
ChrisHI can't see anything that did not go through the ML. What I was doing today is exactly what I was proposing.04:41
ChrisHSomebody tell me what's wrong.04:41
ChrisHIt was my suggestion to merge the book and the FAQ right from the beginning.04:42
sivangI don't know what's wrong either, didn't he agree to put the faq to be a secion in the book?04:43
ChrisHThe "If we have a majority" had a smiley added (!) and was just a question if the proposed (and approved) merge could begin now. It was a matter of "when" and not of "if".04:43
ChrisHYes, he did.04:43
ChrisHIt has been quite a bit of work today to get it done like this. At which point did we not agree to merge it? Do I need a lawyer to translate postings?04:44
ChrisHEverybody should know that I'm not the "I ignore others" type. I like 90% consensus and 10% action.04:45
=== ChrisH is a little pissed
sivangyes I know :) Shame he always goes away when you come in :)04:45
ChrisHJust when I thought we agreed on something...04:45
sivangHe wanted to do a meeting also about that,04:46
sivangI didn't see so much how a meeting can help us 04:46
sivangand I noted to him that you had the ;) next to sentence there.04:46
ChrisHDon't mean to offend hornbeck but neither do I. Since we have this fine channel I see no need for an additional meeting. (Other than that the timezone differences are bad.)04:47
ChrisH<quote hornbeck>04:47
ChrisHI get more and more confused everyday.  I think that I should be working04:47
ChrisHon the book, but also trying to help maintain the faq, gnome-guide,04:47
ChrisHwiki, and in the end I don't get much done because I am stretching04:47
ChrisHmyself to thin.  I think avoiding double-work is a great idea, and in04:47
ChrisHthe original idea for the book, I was going to mainly take other bits04:47
ChrisHand pieces and tie them together from the wiki and debian docs and such04:47
ChrisHso that it would incorporate all the docs already there.04:47
ChrisH</quote hornbeck>04:47
ChrisHI wanted to have the whole doc mess cleaned up and merged. Why is he going to work on a book that is can't handle because he is alone?04:49
sivangI've pinged enrico04:50
sivangI'll want him to help us straight this out.04:50
ChrisHGood idea.04:50
ChrisHI don't mind doing it like this or that. But we need a direction. I really don't feel like editing documents that are merged, joined, thrown away and started from scratch.04:51
=== ChrisH takes his pills
pl0vsin the end we all want the same, we want this thing to go ahead, and we might be calling the same thing with differnt names04:51
=== pl0vs hopes ChrisH doesn't take too many, we're not angry really, come back!
ChrisHpl0vs: The only thing that is unclear to me: do we merge everything into a handbook? Or do we have John's book and a collection of FAQs.04:51
ChrisHpl0vs: Not *those* pills. ;)04:52
pl0vsi do not care either way04:52
pl0vsthe only thing i do not want is wasted work04:52
pl0vswe should try to keep what we have04:52
pl0vsmoving it around is no problem, nor is naming it diffrently, faq, book, hornbecks book chris's faq, whatever04:53
pl0vsChrisH, are hornbeck's files in docbook?04:54
pl0vsChrisH, can they be merged?04:54
ChrisHpl0vs: They are in DocBook and very similar to our work.04:54
pl0vsChrisH,  how much work would it be to merge it all in one doc?04:55
ChrisHLet's see...04:56
pl0vsone hour, two, a week, forever?04:56
ChrisHHardly any work. He has just started on "his book".04:57
pl0vsChrisH, but the toc is good?04:57
ChrisHTo make it clear what I intended: John's book structure is nice - I like it. I just wanted to put our current little articles into his structure.04:58
=== pl0vs just remembered that he liked it
pl0vsso if i understand it right, the only thing that ticked of john is either a misunderstanding of what you are doing or he didn't like you moving his bok in the faq directory and calling it faq, right?04:59
pl0vsthen it might  be easy to straighten it out, afaik04:59
ChrisHIt probably is.05:00
pl0vsChrisH, and you wanted to add all the stuff from the wiki in the book?05:01
sivanghe just misunderstood.05:01
sivangI'm sure of it05:01
ChrisHI assume he saw me taking away "his book". But as he said he cannot handle it alone and we don't want to do double-work it seemed only logical to me to join those two documents.05:02
pl0vsChrisH, why don't you make a proof-of-concept?05:03
pl0vsChrisH, then we discuss that, vote, whatever and get back to work05:04
sivangChrisH : I stand behind every word :)05:04
sivangwe can do a ML voting maybe05:05
pl0vsChrisH, sivang did you read john's lates mail to the list? it is what we are *all* talking about05:06
pl0vsnewcoolubuntudoc = docbook(book + faq) 05:06
ChrisHI agree that the faq should not be ditched.  I think what we have should05:06
ChrisHbe moved up and maybe branched in with the book.  I do not support just05:06
ChrisHtrashing the faq by any means.05:06
sivangpl0vs : I like your notation :)05:07
ChrisHThat's what John wrote. And that's exactly what I intended.05:07
ChrisHNo matter if it's /faq or /book. We'll surely find a location and ditch the other tree.05:07
=== ChrisH is off for half an hour - bathing the baby
pl0vssivang, i am at another computer, what is the svn address of the book?05:08
sivangthen we do not have a problem at all :)05:08
sivanghmm, I wouldn't know..:)05:08
pl0vssivang, pfew, i'm happy about that, i do not like fighting05:08
sivangme neither05:09
hornbeckare we all here?05:13
hornbeckI am back and just read the log05:14
hornbeckI apologize to ChrisH, I misunderstood what he was talking about05:14
ChrisHhornbeck: What do you think? Everybody picks a part of the book and merges the FAQ sections there?05:14
hornbeckI have reread all of the post and everything, I was very confused about the direction and being mad already I read the "if we have three" post as a literal05:15
ChrisHhornbeck: What if I finish the work on what I currently have in the /faq repository (includes your works on the book) and commit that? Nothing will get lost.05:15
hornbeckChrisH: sounds good to me05:15
ChrisHhornbeck: Thanks. :)05:15
hornbecksorry I jumped the gun :-)05:16
hornbeckand it is not "my book"05:16
hornbeckit was a book I was working on05:16
ChrisHhornbeck: I'll still be off for 30-60 minutes. So the commit will be probably in about two hours. I think we will all be happy.05:16
hornbeckChrisH: I hope so05:16
ChrisHhornbeck: Okay... just thought our emotions came in the way of the work.05:16
hornbeckwell we seem on the same page now05:17
hornbeckso everything is going to be in the /faq directory?05:17
hornbeckI am off for a few hours, please go ahead and merge and we will work out details later05:20
=== pl0vs is looking at the apt man-pages to fix bug: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3353
pl0vssivang, awake?05:53
sivangyes, hre06:01
pl0vsi am looking at the man-pages atm, thanks for the page06:03
pl0vsi was hoping we could have some svn repo, but it will just be in the packages06:03
ChrisHpl0vs: Yes, you would need to change the packages themselves. :(06:04
ChrisHpl0vs: Perhaps you extract the man page, correct it, create a "diff" and send it through bugzille.06:04
ChrisHpl0vs: Same old story: nobody but canonical is supposed to upload "main" packages.06:04
sivangyes, my understanding says that we just send patches to bugzilla and the packg maintainers would take care of this.06:04
pl0vssivang, how is the gnome-guide, you did some work on that right?06:05
pl0vsChrisH, well, i have upload status, afaik, or at least i could get it06:05
sivangyou looked at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UDPManPageTask ?06:06
pl0vsChrisH, but i prefer diffing to bugzilla for the time being06:06
ChrisHpl0vs: for "main"? really?06:06
pl0vsChrisH, i did not really look into it as i am not planning to use it atm, but afaik i am a maintainer and have the right to upload packages yes06:07
sivangpl0vs : you were approved on the last CC meeting right?06:07
sivangThat's interesting/06:07
ChrisHpl0vs: I'm not sure about that. But I'm not even a maintainer. :)06:07
pl0vsChrisH, but i would prefer starting on something unimportant, maybe apt is not the right package to experiment with...06:08
ChrisHpl0vs: If you just change the man page... that should be fine. :) You just needed to rebuild the package and that's it.06:08
sivangpl0vs :  I think sabdfl noted that he wouldn't want to see people who were supposdly working on docs to commit packages..06:09
sivangbefore they get enough approval by the TB06:09
sivanghe noted something about someone doing so being "a social problem" as they currently lack the infrasructure to enforce that.06:09
pl0vssivang, i agree with him, and i am not (yet) planning to do any of the kind06:10
sivangwell, that just solves my pkging grief maybe :) I had talked to seb128 on the yelp packages, wanted to help on it and eventually this got form as me sneding the patch to bugsilla,06:11
sivanghe asked jdub and the conclusion was they want to keep main packages at canonical hands in the meanwhile.06:11
pl0vssivang, not everybody has the same opinion, read the cc-meeting sabdfl is the most liberal, jdub (if i remember right), more conservative 06:12
hornbecksivang: as far as I understood, once we had our gpg keys signed well enough and understood packageing maintainers could upload fixes06:13
hornbeckI was told that once my key is signed by a decent amount I could upload06:13
pl0vsHoodster, that is what i understood as well, but i do understand they do not want newbies to mess up main06:13
sivangbtw, on hoary you can already use the official package - my patch is already incorporated into it.06:13
pl0vsthat was supposed to be hornbeck 06:13
hornbeckpl0vs: correct, they want us to have some experiance first, but in time we will have upload status06:14
pl0vssivang, does the new yelp read apt man-pages in xml?06:14
hornbeckis evolution broke in Hoary for anyone else?06:15
hornbeckit stopped working today06:15
sivangpl0vs : provided that XML is DocBook enough, I guess that it can.06:15
sivanghornbeck : might be, I got really tired with that, switched to mutt and thunderbird in the meanwhile06:15
hornbeckI just moved my mail to the server06:16
pl0vssivang, could you try: apt-get source apt, and in the doc folder try one of the xml files?06:16
hornbeckreally need to get it fixed though so I can use it on my laptop again06:16
pl0vshornbeck, gmail,gmail!06:16
hornbeckpl0vs: I am not a big fan of online mail06:16
hornbeckI like evolution06:16
hornbeckI am thinking of moving to cvs so I can keep track of it06:17
pl0vshornbeck, it has pop-access as well06:17
sivangpl0vs : yes why not, is this where my bug is sitting? (of the sources.list)06:17
hornbeckpl0vs: even with pop access if I have no reader than it will not work06:17
pl0vshornbeck, if evo does not work you have web-access06:17
pl0vshornbeck, and if  it does you have evo06:17
hornbeckI have web-access to my mail anyway06:18
pl0vshornbeck, or you must set up imap on your server and use evo or mutt06:18
hornbeckI just prefer evo06:18
pl0vshornbeck, imap?06:18
sivangimaps rocks06:18
sivangmutt also06:18
hornbeckwhat is imap may I ask?06:18
pl0vshornbeck, ah, that is pop as it was meant to be06:19
hornbeckI will look into that real quick06:19
pl0vshornbeck, search "pop vs imap" on google06:19
hornbeckI am reading a imap page right now06:20
sivangpl0vs : we need to convert it, it doesn't like this form of xml files.06:20
pl0vssivang, hmm too bad, converting it would mean moving far away from  debain06:21
sivangpl0vs : what kind of xml is this?06:21
pl0vssivang, which means a lot of maintenance06:21
pl0vssivang,  refentry06:22
sivangI am not sure yelp is the right tool to display man pages in the desktop06:22
pl0vssivang, ?????06:22
sivangthere's GUI man page readers06:22
pl0vssivang, i humbly disagree06:22
sivanglike xman and it's more civilized desendents.06:22
pl0vssivang, we should have one of-line doc-reader06:23
pl0vssivang, but i remmeber talk about making yelp man-page friendly06:23
=== pl0vs sometimes remembers things that did not happen, better take another pill...
sivangI don't recall, I might be mistaken06:24
sivangI am checking again,06:25
sivangtopday os the GNOME love day dedicated to yelp btw :006:25
hornbeckanyone know of a good tutorial about setting up a mail server?06:26
ChrisHhornbeck: Yes. ;) But it depends what you want to do.06:26
sivangpl0vs : yes there are plans to use it for man pages reading :)06:27
sivangyou rememebred right.06:27
=== cenerentola [~cenerento@] has joined #ubuntu-doc
sivangmy memory starts to fail on me I guess.06:27
pl0vshornbeck, be nice to ChrisH he is our local mail deity 06:28
ChrisHNah... nobody needs to be nice to me because of that. ;)06:29
pl0vshornbeck, say the magic words: i want postfix+courier06:29
ChrisHpl0vs: My irssi is set to auto-exit if it senses "postfix", "courier" and "mysql" in the same line. :)06:30
pl0vsChrisH, i removed mysql (on purpose)06:30
pl0vsChrisH, what do you prefer for imap?06:30
ChrisHpl0vs: courier.06:31
ChrisHpl0vs: I switched even my local mailboxes to courier a few weeks ago. The maildir structure is a little ugly but it works well with mutt.06:31
ChrisHpl0vs: I had the uw-imapd running for myself and the courier-imap for the users. Not very slick to run two daemons on two interfaces.06:31
ChrisHpl0vs: And sivang is testing my mail server regularly so I don't need a network monitoring program. :)06:32
pl0vsChrisH, does he have an account on your server, smart move, free checking of up-times06:32
hornbeckChrisH: I want to set up a mail server for me06:32
hornbeckright now my @freeshell.org account gets overloaded06:33
hornbeckI recieve about 500 email a day06:33
ChrisHpl0vs: Yes... I set him up sivan.workaround.org and an email account. Seems to work so far.06:33
ChrisHhornbeck: Do you already have a domain and MX entry pointing to your mail server?06:33
pl0vsChrisH, nice to know where to beg if i evr need an account :-)06:33
hornbeckno, I don't even know where to start06:33
hornbeckI am looking for a tutorial06:33
hornbeckor a site to start me in the direction06:34
hornbecklooks like I found one06:34
ChrisHpl0vs: I'm moving a server to a computer room in a few days. Then we'll have plenty of space and bandwidth. If you need a subdomain, email accounts or whatever... just ring.06:34
hornbeckI have to run guys06:34
hornbeckneed to fix a car06:34
ChrisHhornbeck: you should start here: http://www.postfix.org/BASIC_CONFIGURATION_README.html06:34
sivangpl0vs : http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/yelpshots/yelp-ls.png06:35
pl0vsChrisH, thanks, i'll keep it in mind06:35
sivangbut it's only usable from CVS HEAD,06:35
=== sivang thanks a million for setting him up the imap mail.
ChrisHsivang: no problem... I like it that you share your intimate emails with me :)06:35
pl0vsChrisH, i like your tutorial more actually06:36
ChrisHpl0vs: Thanks. :)06:36
pl0vsChrisH, and the postfix book from oreilly as well06:36
ChrisHsivang: Did you read that I have maillog.workaround.org up now? Everybody can read your mailbox. What a great service. You don't even need to log in. That's very convenient, isn't it?06:36
ChrisHpl0vs: Haven't ordered it. I still need to read other books. And I wonder if there is a Python book from them.06:37
pl0vsChrisH, it's not that good, if you can write your tutorial you do not need the book06:37
pl0vsChrisH, i can show you if you want in spain\06:38
ChrisHpl0vs: Yes, I'm curious.06:38
ChrisHIn fact I learned a lot in #postfix and on the mailing list.06:38
pl0vsChrisH, remind me a day or so before, then i'll bring it06:39
ChrisHpl0vs: Isn't it too heavy for the plane? It's not that important.06:39
pl0vsChrisH, i only bring one small bag, no problem06:39
ChrisHpl0vs: Just one set of clothes for 4-5 days? Uuuh. :)06:40
pl0vsChrisH, i have a really handy suitcase, and small-foldable clothes, i travel often and light06:41
pl0vsChrisH, don't worry i don't smell :-)06:41
pl0vsChrisH, i'm married now, those days are over06:42
pl0vssivang, nice the new yelp, is it in hoary or only in cvs?06:42
ChrisHpl0vs: I thought men begin to smell again once they are married. :)06:43
pl0vsChrisH, about python, you should shop around but i like:  O'Reilly.Learning.Python.2nd.Ed.2003 (i have a chm copy, i plan to buy the book)06:47
pl0vsChrisH, o'reilly as well06:47
ChrisHI was reading an URL mdz showed me. But I would like to have something like the "Perl Cookbook" in Python.06:48
pl0vsChrisH, python cookbook?06:48
ChrisHMy first Python scripts will probably just be Perl with another syntax. But the philosophy seems to be different.06:48
ChrisHpl0vs: There is a cookbook? Nice.06:48
pl0vsChrisH, i have it as pdf if you want to check before you buy?06:50
pl0vsChrisH, it's a pain to read from a screen, but ok to check it out06:50
ChrisHpl0vs: With pleasure.06:50
ChrisHpl0vs: I'm one click away from buying it on amazon. :)06:51
pl0vsChrisH, it's 1.8 mb, should i mail it?06:52
sivangChrisH : what book is this?06:52
ChrisHpl0vs: yes, please06:52
sivangahhhh! just saw the message regarding maillog! no!!!06:54
ChrisHsivang: :)06:54
sivangbtw, what book are you talking about? can I also get a copy?06:54
=== sivang likes computer books :)
ChrisHPython Cookbook06:54
ChrisHI'm sure I can catch up the basics of Python online. But I probably need some recipes on how to do what.06:55
pl0vsChrisH, /usr/share/doc/diveintopython/html/toc/index.html and the python docs are quite good as well07:01
sivangpl0vs : how much are you already into python?07:02
ChrisHpl0vs: Yes, diveintopython is really nice. I started to dream of "everything is an object". :)07:02
sivangeverything IS an object :)07:03
ChrisHsivang: You better not try to flirt with girls with that slogan...07:04
pl0vssivang, not far enough, i'm afraid07:07
pl0vswhere is whois?07:15
pl0vsthe command, i don't have it07:15
ChrisHfor IPs?07:15
ChrisH /whois pl0vs 07:15
pl0vsno to look up my domain07:16
ChrisHpl0vs: www.internic.net for .com07:16
ChrisHpl0vs: or my favorite site: www.dnsstuff.com07:16
pl0vsdig, ping, whois etc07:16
pl0vsthe whois command does that07:16
=== pl0vs is dum, it is in the whois package
=== pl0vs bangs his head on the mouse pad
ChrisHThe QWERTY effect. ;)07:18
=== ChrisH gets some oven cheese ready <yum> <yum>
=== pl0vs goes off to find food as well
pl0vsChrisH, what is the opposite of ctrl-p in vim (search forward)07:28
ChrisHpl0vs: n07:28
ChrisH= net07:28
ChrisH= next07:28
ChrisHpl0vs: Do you know the vim command for opening the filename the cursor points at? There is "K" for man pages. I swear I once saw that for files.07:29
ChrisHpl0vs: would be really handy for this document07:29
pl0vsChrisH, i know it exists...07:31
pl0vsChrisH, i mean ctrl-p for completion, p is backwards completion07:31
ChrisHpl0vs: ah. ctrl-n of course :)07:33
pl0vsChrisH, i had an override in my bashrc, duh07:43
pl0vsChrisH, imap \fn   <C-R>=expand("%:t:r")<CR> 07:44
pl0vsChrisH, this inserts it07:45
pl0vsChrisH, you working on the faq-book-guide?07:53
ChrisHYes... I'm in the last chapter of John.07:54
ChrisHWas a little more work. But I think it's worth it.07:54
pl0vsChrisH, i am really curious, i svn update every 5 minutes07:57
ChrisHI think I'll keep that for myself, ask O'Reilly and get richer than Mark. ;)07:57
=== pl0vs knew that was the plan all along
=== pl0vs plots revenge
ChrisH"hornbeck" is just another of my nicks to distract you. :)07:58
=== pl0vs 's paranoia sets in again, needs another pill
=== ChrisH is about to commit
pl0vsChrisH, great!08:12
sivangso it the faq and book merged already?08:12
ChrisHyes... one moment though... some files are not yet added08:13
pl0vsChrisH, what does this do? i don't get it:    <para>Uses HTTP to access the archive at archive.ubuntu.com, and uses only08:13
pl0vs   the hamm/main area.</para>08:13
pl0vs   <literallayout>deb http://archive.debian.org/debian-archive hamm main</literallayout>08:13
pl0vsuses onl the hamm/main area. ????08:13
pl0vsChrisH, it even has icon-like pictures!08:15
=== pl0vs dances in front of his computer, just like golum
ChrisHPlease read the README. I invested some time cleaning the titles and reference IDs.08:16
ChrisHIt would be nice if we have a consistent formatting and syntax.08:17
ChrisHI pray this is okay for everyone.08:17
pl0vsChrisH, i do not see many faq-issues08:18
pl0vsChrisH, will they be merged or will they stay seperate?08:19
ChrisHpl0vs: They are still in the parts/old directory.08:19
ChrisHpl0vs: My idea would be that everyone picks a chapter and grabs the FAQs that fit into his sections from the old/ directory.08:20
ChrisHpl0vs: I know this doesn't look like much work - but it was. If I made you wait until I distributed and rewrote the old FAQ it had taken another day.08:20
ChrisHpl0vs: I hope everybody can cut out the pieces from there.08:20
pl0vsChrisH, ok, i had a really long and good sounding question but it is no longer necessary to ask...08:20
pl0vsChrisH, i know, i redid the faq08:21
ChrisHpl0vs: did you send the PDF to gmail? I'm curious. :)08:21
pl0vsChrisH, yesterday already08:21
ChrisHpl0vs: tnx08:21
ChrisHpl0vs: I have used xincludes instead of entities now for including files. That way it's a little more clearly laid out and it works recursively.08:22
ChrisHOkay... thanks for the discussion. I hope everyone feels okay about this one. So let's pick our pieces and get ready to rumble. ;)08:24
ChrisHI'll take the rest of the day off. But just tell me if we need to change anything or if someone objects.08:24
pl0vsChrisH, i'll send a write-up to the ML08:27
=== littlegreenman [~diogo@a83-132-24-2.netcabo.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc
ChrisHpl0vs: tnx08:38
sivangpl0vs : I think I'll start with the 3 subsections under the 'about'08:45
sivangpl0vs : boy it looks great108:45
sivangChrisH : Well Done!08:46
sivangHow did you make it look in yelp that good?08:46
=== sid77 [~sid77@ppp-63-168.30-151.libero.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc
ChrisHBut let's hear what hornbeck says. ;)08:58
sivangChrisH : it's superb08:58
sivanghi sid7708:59
ChrisHsivang: Thanks. But it's still only the TOC and the article about installing Ubuntu from John.08:59
ChrisHsivang: Now comes the part for everybody where we can work on.08:59
sivangChrisH : I am taking the 'About' part, where do you think the background guide can be incorporated, if at all?09:00
sid77hi sivang09:00
ChrisHsivang: Hi, Sid.09:00
sid77tab frenzy?09:00
ChrisHsivang: What kind of background exactly? The meaning of Gnu, Ubuntu and Linux should be in the first chapter IMHO.09:00
ChrisHsivang: Could you (as hour honorable chief master organiser) manage the information who works on what? We could as well put that into the document itself.09:01
ChrisHsivang: I offer myself for sysconfig or software.09:01
sivangChrisH : yes! thy humble servant ! :)) MOUHHAHAHA09:02
sivangLet's start with a MOIN MOIN table on the wiki09:02
=== sivang was intentionally using caps on the moin moin part :)
sivangI got a nasty rash last time I tried to use ReST09:04
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sid77bye all09:08
ChrisHsivang: okay... but then we have it twice in the docs again...09:25
sivangChrisH : huh?09:25
ChrisHin the wiki and in the docbook (the toc)09:25
ChrisHbut that is probably not our biggest problem09:26
sivangyou mean where to put the table with where everybody say what he is working on?09:26
plovswe should remove redundant stuff from the wiki imo09:26
ChrisHcan't we just put our names in the chapters we are working on?09:27
plovsChrisH, why don't we all just pick a chapter?09:27
plovson the ML09:27
plovsand when it's finished, say so and it's open for all09:28
ChrisHplovs: k09:28
ChrisHjust please not yet another wiki page :)09:28
plovs?? should reduce the number of wiki pages09:29
plovsdump half the wiki in the book09:30
plovsand use wiki for updates09:30
ChrisHyes please09:30
ChrisHThe "documentation team" aka the "anti-wiki gang" :)09:30
plovssince we wrote most of it in the first place, we can undo it as well09:31
plovsbesides the book should be published in the support section asap09:31
plovsjust send your prefeered chapter to the ML09:32
plovssivang, you ok with this?09:32
=== sivang reads
ChrisHplovs: asap will probably still be a 2-4 weeks from now09:33
plovsChrisH, that's the ap part of asap, i suppose09:33
plovsbut it should be before barcelona if possible09:33
plovseven if beta09:33
sivangYes, as the chairman I agree :)09:33
sivangBut, it would cost ya bucks people09:34
ChrisHsivang: Your honor. You are discharged of your duties for telling rubbish. You will further serve as a proofreader of Gentoo. :)09:34
plovsChrisH, we would need some extra wiki-pages, actually, errata for the guide09:38
plovsone page for every part maybe09:38
ChrisHcontaining what exactly?09:38
plovsChrisH, errata, things that are not there typos etc09:39
=== plovs thinks maybe we should write the thing first and then publish errata
sivangbut please don't make me proofread for Gentoo09:40
sivanganywa, so we leave off the wiki page for the task assignment?09:40
plovsmandrake? bug reports?09:40
plovssivang, i vote for ML09:40
plovsfor now09:41
plovswe're only four/five guys anyway09:41
sivangok then09:41
sivangI don't mind, it supports my wiki lazzyness09:42
plovsi call it a day, i have a busy day tomorrow, see ya all!09:42
sivangbye plovs!09:42
ChrisHanyone posting on the ML?09:44
sivangI did09:44
sivangI said I will do the 'About'09:44
ChrisHi will do the sysconfig.09:48
ChrisHLet's see what John is on for.09:48
plovsChrisH, what's your sig?09:48
sivangpost the ML09:48
plovsChrisH, ".signature" [Modified]  3 lines --100%--                3,41         All09:49
ChrisHthat *is* my sig :)09:50
ChrisHhmm... once the doc is done we should think about a translation09:54
sivangwe have already many people eager for teanslation,09:56
sivanglittlegreenman would be the guy for the protugeese09:56
sivangskyrider for russian09:56
sivangwhat does that signature mean?09:58
ChrisHNever used "vim" before? :)09:59
sivangI use it just to edit conffiles,09:59
sivangother than that, I'm still VIM dummey10:00
ChrisHjust look at the bottom line when you have vim open10:00
ChrisHtry Ctrl-G10:06
sivangnothing special10:10
ChrisHokay... it's supposed to be an editor windows of vim editing a ".signature" file. so it's a recursive vim-insider gag. :)10:10
sivangand I absolutely understood this phrase :)10:11
sivangor not,10:11
sivangsivang.understand(chrish) or die(10:11
sivang"error at line1")10:11
ChrisHare you snaking me?10:12
sivangwhat does that mean?10:12
sivangah it was mixing python and perl ;)10:14
sivanggot you on vim10:14
sivangI now see the line at the bottom10:14
sivang"[No File] " [Modified]  8 lines --100%--                                           8,0-1         All10:14
=== falco [~falco@a212-113-181-115.netcabo.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc
=== cenerentola [~cenerento@host34-170.pool8290.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc
falcois the documentation team11:01
falcoresponsable for documentation translation11:01
sivangyes falco, how are you?11:01
falcoI'm fine11:03
sivangAre you interested in translating stuff?11:04
falcoI would like to give a hand in the Portuguese translation11:04
sivangah great!11:04
falcoand if I have time I might do more than that11:05
sivangThere is already someone who also likes to contribute on that front,11:05
sivanghe's also portuguese11:05
ChrisHsivang: do we have a translation organisation page on the wiki?11:05
sivangChrisH : we have the translation communties page on the mai site,11:06
falcoI'll speak to him11:07
=== sivang is searching
sivangfalco : I would advice to also post to ML, after subscribing to it,11:19
sivangintroducting yourself etc,11:20
sivangexpressing your intention to contribute in translation to portuguese11:20
falcoI'll in a few minutes11:20
sivangcc:lulu@canonical.com for that matter 11:20
falcosivang: is that your e-mail?11:42
sivangno, this is the email for the contact person in canonical that takes care of the interactio between the docteam and the company :)11:46
sivangbut you need not email them persoannly,11:46
sivangjust post the list.11:46
falcojust to know what should I put in evolution contacts11:51
sivangyou should subscribe first11:52
sivangand come here tommorow also, maybe early to get some of the doc team people to know you11:54
littlegreenmanbeen away sivang11:59
sivanglittlegreenman : falco is here is also willing to join the translation front, would you like to tell him what you already know - also, where is that page with langs communites?11:59
littlegreenmansivang: yeah, no prob12:00
littlegreenmansivang: i have one tiny problem... is that i don't know where the work of the new ubuntu help file12:00
littlegreenmanis located or better12:00

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