=== skyrider [~skyrider@ppp1.pool.123.com.ua] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:37] sivang: hi [12:38] hey skyrider! what's up? [12:39] doesn anybody have idea if when setting up apt pinning, I need to put in /etc/apt/apt.conf the ditro name in caps ? [12:39] like Warty , or warty? [12:39] plovs_work : ? :) [12:40] sivang: it doesn't matter IIRC [12:40] skyrider : ok thanks. [12:40] I've published some photos of Ukraine you asked [12:40] sivang: I may be wrong ;) [12:40] sivang: you can see this photos at http://kid.stu.cn.ua/~skyrider/photos/ukraine/ [12:41] sivang: it's just random photos from different places in my country: cities, villages etc. [12:41] skyrider : nice! [12:42] thank you alot [12:42] http://kid.stu.cn.ua/~skyrider/photos/ukraine/img010.jpeg.html << AMAZING VIEW [12:43] sivang: you are welcome! [12:43] sivang: you wouldn't believe but that photo I've made in the center of my city %-) [12:43] you know, we should maybe start some page on the wiki, each team and some personal photos of the members, their origin etc, care for the people part in Ubuntu :) [12:45] sivang: good idea [12:49] sivang: BTW what's about irc logs? [12:49] hmmm good you reminded me, let's ping mako :) again - I'll email him if can't get answer today. Sorry about that! [12:50] :) [12:50] BTW mako is awesome guy [12:50] I've read his article today [12:50] I'm impressed [12:50] where? [12:51] He a great guy, yes [12:51] http://mako.yukidoke.org/writing/unlearningstory/StoryOfUnlearing.html [12:51] I lake that essey very much [12:51] s/lake/like/ :) [12:52] s/essey/essay/ :) [12:53] To much mistakes for one sentence [01:04] no prob [01:04] :) [01:11] skyrider : maybe you should mail him directly? [01:11] :) [01:11] I know he wouldn't mind. [01:13] sivang: OK. I'll mail him tomorrow. [01:14] ok, great. sorry for not being that good service to you. [01:14] everything great, Sivan. Forget it. [01:15] k === skyrider always types 'make' instead of 'mako'. Bad habit ;) [01:21] maybe you just compile too much code..:) [01:23] sivang: You absolutely right! :) === trickie [~trickie@203-217-34-161.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [02:51] Hornbeck around? === trickie_ [~trickie@203-217-34-161.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:56] (hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) robertj_: I am now [05:56] (hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) for a second at least === maskie [~maskie@196-30-110-214.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [06:54] (hornbeck/#ubuntu-doc) good night === hornbeck [~hornbeck@adsl-69-155-172-150.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === cenerentola [~cenerento@84.222.39.23] has joined #ubuntu-doc === cenerentola [~cenerento@84.222.38.24] has joined #ubuntu-doc === pl0vs [~knoppix@195.13.248.82] has joined #ubuntu-doc [11:55] hi guys [12:09] pl0vs: hey :) [12:09] pl0vs: did you read my question yesterday about your work on the faq-guide.xml? [12:10] ChrisH, yes, writing an answer right now, give me 10 minutes, more [12:10] ChrisH, good question btw [12:11] Uhm? 10 Minutes? Just expected a yes/no. :) === sivang [~sivang@80.179.93.130.forward.012.net.il] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:19] Morning all [12:19] sivang: hey, master... [12:19] ChrisH : Hi, What's happenin? :) [12:22] I've seen somewhere a call for a meeting, I don't think it would server us too good in this, we can straight up the new format matter over ML, IMHO :) [12:22] ok, mailed my reply [12:22] sivang: the little one is about to go to bed, my anti-headache pills are starting to be effective, I'm working on UTF-8 in irssi and wonder whether (I|we)'ll adopt horny's TOC structure [12:23] ChrisH, i'm in favor [12:23] If we have a majority of 3 we can start. ;) [12:23] pl0vs: Is your faq-guide.xml anything different than the faq.xml regarding the contents (not the chunked structure)? [12:23] anybody knows a thing about man=pages here? [12:24] jup [12:24] mine is more up-to-date [12:24] pl0vs : what do you like to know? [12:24] it is faq.xml plus something [12:24] sivang, everything, in five minutes if you can [12:25] how do i edit them? [12:25] where is the source? [12:25] is it docbook?\ [12:25] pl0vs : let's see, gemme a sec. [12:25] one [12:25] two [12:25] three [12:25] he hey [12:25] :) [12:25] sec = 10 minutes [12:26] in sivang's time :) [12:26] ah, ok [12:26] :-) [12:26] Could you all commit your changes? I could start to change the TOC structure. [12:26] ChrisH, you're talking about the book? [12:26] [12:26] But the book in the /faq tree. ;) [12:27] ChrisH, and it will all be docbook? [12:27] Yes. Basically it's your work just changed to what John posted. [12:28] and you want to redo the faq to a book (just asking so i understand) [12:29] pl0vs: From what I understood: we use our current FAQ in John's /faq repository, call it "User's Guide" or "Handbook", keep your structure and just put the current content in the section structure as proposed by John [12:30] ChrisH, ok, fair enough [12:30] pl0vs: Lead to a lot of confusion yesterday. :) [12:31] it's not so important how we go about solving stuff, many roads lead to the same place [12:31] we just need a clear path ahead of us [12:32] And I think that this time we are close enough to it. [12:36] just send me updates of what we are deciding :) [12:37] ChrisH, what do you plan on doing, incorperating wiki-stuff or writing all from scratch? [12:37] For the protocol: "While sivan attended we decided to permanently block cenerentola, ask Mark for free beer and switched the Handbook from DocBook/XML to Microsoft Word 2004." [12:38] three out of four is ok [12:38] cenerentola has been trolling? [12:38] pl0vs: I'd like to take the currently articles we already collected in the FAQ and just not use the questions as a title but rather use the structure John proposed on the M. [12:38] pl0vs: Has he ever been doing anything else but trolling? ;) [12:39] ChrisH, agree on the toc [12:39] hahah [12:39] ChrisH, do we have an op for the chNNEL? [12:39] sorry, caps-lock [12:39] pl0vs: sivan and me currently... but you should also get the privs... moment [12:40] no prob, just so somebody trustworthy has it [12:41] ChrisH, will you work on faq-guide or copy it to a new doc? [12:41] pl0vs: I'd use your current chunked files. [12:42] pl0vs: Then we can distribute the pieces among us and start working without too much interference. [12:42] ok [12:42] agreed [12:43] pl0vs: Could you register with nickserv so I can give you op privs? [12:43] give it to plovs, not pl0vs [12:43] pl0vs : I need to see how to handle the already "FAQ" in the support area, I had trouble trying to remove it / change it. [12:44] or plovs_work [12:44] i am not at my own machine atm [12:44] It was added to the support section by mean of the CMS, [12:44] pl0vs: is plovs registered? [12:44] yes [12:44] pl0vs: why don't you use the same nick all the time? [12:44] but not atm, i have network problems at home [12:44] not an HTML upload - so, we would also be needing to check if we can TOC it, or have the TOC already made inside the HTML. [12:46] sivang, if we call this the ubuntu-guide then we can leave the faq? no? [12:47] I am going to try to erase it all together, or move it somwhere else, or opena new FAQ section :) [12:48] have we taken anything from there into the new , current DocBook FAQ? [12:48] sivang, everything [12:50] sivang, we just must make sure not to break too many links [12:50] people have been linking to faq-answers [12:51] ok, no problem. then a new section that is. [12:52] sivang, the curse of backwards-compatibility [12:52] Everybody in favor that I change the structure now? We would get a little chaos if you have uncommited changes. [12:52] what structure? [12:52] of what? [12:52] :)) === ChrisH beats sivang === sivang ouches === cenerventola [~chaas@212.12.58.130] has joined #ubuntu-doc [12:54] ChrisH, go ahead [12:54] pl0vs: Great. :) [12:54] ChrisH, http://images.ucomics.com/comics/ch/1993/ch931121.gif [12:54] ChrisH : heheh [12:54] ChrisH, for the parents among us [12:54] hahaha === sivang LOLs [12:54] pl0vs: :) [12:55] pl0vs: I like another strip, too... Calvin: "Dad, think of a number and I'll guess." Dad: "got it." Calvin: "Is it 239879?" Dad: "By God, how did you do that?" Calvin: "Hey, you are trying to get rid of me, right?" Dad: "No, you are psychic. Go show your mother." ;) [12:56] ChrisH, yes, calvin and hobbes is probably my fav [12:56] mine, too. Already ordered the last book I don't know for christmas. It's mandatory lecture in bed. :) [12:56] Even if you are not parenting... [12:57] ChrisH, my brother showed them to me for the first time, but now he doesn't think it is so funny anymore (he as a real calvin himself now) [12:57] I dind't get the last one :( [12:57] sivang: Calvin wants to play number-guessing with his dad. And the dad just wants to get rid of Calvin. :) [12:57] sivang, subscribe to: http://www.livejournal.com/users/calnhobbes/data/atom [12:58] i have it in my bloglines [01:09] pl0vs: is the afaik yes [01:11] but i just copied it from somewhere else [01:11] Hmmm. I'm thinking about splitting the parts into different directories. But if I wanted to include sections from there we would still need to define all includes in the main file as opposed to the certain parts. [01:12] look in the gnome userguide, they have folders for the pics [01:12] but all defines are int he first file yes [01:27] pl0vs : apt-get source hello, then look inside the /man dir [02:38] pl0vs : here? [02:38] I just found out how to edit those manpages. [02:39] nice, how [02:46] sivang: vim? [02:52] ChrisH : sorry, not "how to edit" [02:52] where to find them [02:52] ah... :) [02:52] how to submit these to get included in the read package [02:52] I will do a quick wiki page in it, under DocDevel or something. [02:53] hmmm I should also update it to reflect oou new goal change. === hornbeck [~hornbeck@adsl-69-155-172-150.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc [03:34] ChrisH: are you here? [03:40] https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UDPManPageTask [03:41] everybody please take alook [03:45] sivang: what has been going on, I thought major discussions was going take part on the mailing list? [03:45] hornbeck : I don't reckon too much :) Have you seen any apparent changes? [03:45] my wiki page is just some try to explain how to go about the fixing of man pages. [03:46] hold one sec [03:46] I am trying to find it in the log [03:46] ChrisH: If we have a majority of 3 we can start. ;) [03:46] he said that last night about the book [03:47] that is not right, that was never discussed [03:47] everything must go through the ML [03:47] (by the way this is about the book being moved) [03:48] I don't think he has done too much already, and if he did, it's only affecting his files, I' [03:48] sure he would discuss it more before he does antyhing widely [03:48] ChrisH : you here? [03:48] he is not answering [03:49] why do you not think a meeting is a good idea? [03:52] well, it can be a good idea, but why can't we just decided and direct thigns over ML? [03:52] no matter how we try to make the meeting accesible by time, [03:53] the ML has far more broad spread then the irc meetings :) [03:53] right, I understand that [03:53] but mailings do not hold the face to face feel of a meeting [03:53] you cannot get someone's right off reaction on a mailing list [03:54] thats fine [03:54] well, I really don't mind the meeting, [03:54] I must say though, that I am against what ChrisH is doing right now [03:54] but I would like to see the oppinions of more people..shame nobody responds to much on the ML [03:54] I will post to the list about it [03:55] not a problem, you deserve the right to sound your voice - and I don't think he is doing anything wrong, if you disagree just tell how, and make it clear how you want ot make it to go,. [03:55] what do you not agree with exactly? [03:55] him and I discussed everyone's involvment in the book [03:56] than it appeared he did not know the book existed [03:57] than he decided that the faq would become the book [03:57] that the work myself and a few others have done on the book would be discarded [03:57] and just what him and plovs have done will be added till everyone else starts helping [03:58] all of this without everyone's approval [03:58] this is something that should be decided by the team [03:59] his commint about "If we have a majority of 3 we can start. ;)" [03:59] that is what really makes me mad [04:00] we where in the middle of discussion yesterday when he disappeared, so I figured we would take it back up today [04:00] not him decide to proceed without the team saying yes [04:00] that is basicly taking all the work that has been done offline "faq/book" discarding one and completly butchering the other [04:01] I think he wants to add the FAQ as a section UNDER the book :) [04:01] I'm sure this is what he meant. [04:01] we talked about it also [04:01] :) [04:01] THe idea is the adtop the book, [04:01] add sections to it, [04:02] I am hoping this is all a misunderstanding :-) [04:02] yes it is, I'm sure it is. [04:02] his commint about "If we have a majority of 3 we can start. ;)" [04:02] ^^^ [04:02] oops [04:02] notice the twink sign? [04:02] it was a joke [04:02] yes [04:02] :) [04:02] I hope so [04:03] he was pushing very hard yesterday for everything to be put into /faq on the svn server [04:03] there is no reason to when /book is already there [04:03] with the format and everything [04:03] I do not want /faq to be gotten rid of [04:04] does that make since? [04:04] we already have a /book [04:22] sivang: you leave? [04:25] well I am going to work on a car [04:25] later [04:32] Sorry... needed to keep the baby busy. [04:32] I'm about to commit the new structure. Just a few minutes. [04:40] ChrisH, did you read the log? hornbeck does not seem too pleased [04:40] Oops. No, I didn't. [04:40] But I asked him about four times how we are going to do it. And up to the last I didn't get him clearly. I asked Sivan and he couldn't tell me either. [04:41] I can't see anything that did not go through the ML. What I was doing today is exactly what I was proposing. [04:41] Somebody tell me what's wrong. [04:42] It was my suggestion to merge the book and the FAQ right from the beginning. [04:43] I don't know what's wrong either, didn't he agree to put the faq to be a secion in the book? [04:43] The "If we have a majority" had a smiley added (!) and was just a question if the proposed (and approved) merge could begin now. It was a matter of "when" and not of "if". [04:43] Yes, he did. [04:44] It has been quite a bit of work today to get it done like this. At which point did we not agree to merge it? Do I need a lawyer to translate postings? [04:45] Everybody should know that I'm not the "I ignore others" type. I like 90% consensus and 10% action. === ChrisH is a little pissed [04:45] yes I know :) Shame he always goes away when you come in :) [04:45] Just when I thought we agreed on something... [04:46] He wanted to do a meeting also about that, [04:46] I didn't see so much how a meeting can help us [04:46] and I noted to him that you had the ;) next to sentence there. [04:47] Don't mean to offend hornbeck but neither do I. Since we have this fine channel I see no need for an additional meeting. (Other than that the timezone differences are bad.) [04:47] [04:47] I get more and more confused everyday. I think that I should be working [04:47] on the book, but also trying to help maintain the faq, gnome-guide, [04:47] wiki, and in the end I don't get much done because I am stretching [04:47] myself to thin. I think avoiding double-work is a great idea, and in [04:47] the original idea for the book, I was going to mainly take other bits [04:47] and pieces and tie them together from the wiki and debian docs and such [04:47] so that it would incorporate all the docs already there. [04:47] [04:49] I wanted to have the whole doc mess cleaned up and merged. Why is he going to work on a book that is can't handle because he is alone? [04:50] I've pinged enrico [04:50] I'll want him to help us straight this out. [04:50] Good idea. [04:51] I don't mind doing it like this or that. But we need a direction. I really don't feel like editing documents that are merged, joined, thrown away and started from scratch. === ChrisH takes his pills [04:51] in the end we all want the same, we want this thing to go ahead, and we might be calling the same thing with differnt names === pl0vs hopes ChrisH doesn't take too many, we're not angry really, come back! [04:51] pl0vs: The only thing that is unclear to me: do we merge everything into a handbook? Or do we have John's book and a collection of FAQs. [04:52] pl0vs: Not *those* pills. ;) [04:52] i do not care either way [04:52] the only thing i do not want is wasted work [04:52] we should try to keep what we have [04:53] moving it around is no problem, nor is naming it diffrently, faq, book, hornbecks book chris's faq, whatever [04:54] ChrisH, are hornbeck's files in docbook? [04:54] ChrisH, can they be merged? [04:54] pl0vs: They are in DocBook and very similar to our work. [04:55] ChrisH, how much work would it be to merge it all in one doc? [04:56] Let's see... [04:56] one hour, two, a week, forever? [04:57] Hardly any work. He has just started on "his book". [04:57] ChrisH, but the toc is good? [04:58] To make it clear what I intended: John's book structure is nice - I like it. I just wanted to put our current little articles into his structure. === pl0vs just remembered that he liked it [04:59] so if i understand it right, the only thing that ticked of john is either a misunderstanding of what you are doing or he didn't like you moving his bok in the faq directory and calling it faq, right? [04:59] then it might be easy to straighten it out, afaik [05:00] It probably is. [05:01] ChrisH, and you wanted to add all the stuff from the wiki in the book? [05:01] he just misunderstood. [05:01] Yep. [05:01] I'm sure of it [05:02] I assume he saw me taking away "his book". But as he said he cannot handle it alone and we don't want to do double-work it seemed only logical to me to join those two documents. [05:03] ChrisH, why don't you make a proof-of-concept? [05:04] ChrisH, then we discuss that, vote, whatever and get back to work [05:04] ChrisH : I stand behind every word :) [05:05] we can do a ML voting maybe [05:06] ChrisH, sivang did you read john's lates mail to the list? it is what we are *all* talking about [05:06] newcoolubuntudoc = docbook(book + faq) [05:06] I agree that the faq should not be ditched. I think what we have should [05:06] be moved up and maybe branched in with the book. I do not support just [05:06] trashing the faq by any means. [05:07] pl0vs : I like your notation :) [05:07] That's what John wrote. And that's exactly what I intended. [05:07] No matter if it's /faq or /book. We'll surely find a location and ditch the other tree. === ChrisH is off for half an hour - bathing the baby [05:08] sivang, i am at another computer, what is the svn address of the book? [05:08] then we do not have a problem at all :) [05:08] hmm, I wouldn't know..:) [05:08] sivang, pfew, i'm happy about that, i do not like fighting [05:09] me neither [05:13] are we all here? [05:14] I am back and just read the log [05:14] I apologize to ChrisH, I misunderstood what he was talking about [05:14] hornbeck: What do you think? Everybody picks a part of the book and merges the FAQ sections there? [05:15] I have reread all of the post and everything, I was very confused about the direction and being mad already I read the "if we have three" post as a literal [05:15] hornbeck: What if I finish the work on what I currently have in the /faq repository (includes your works on the book) and commit that? Nothing will get lost. [05:15] ChrisH: sounds good to me [05:15] hornbeck: Thanks. :) [05:16] sorry I jumped the gun :-) [05:16] and it is not "my book" [05:16] it was a book I was working on [05:16] hornbeck: I'll still be off for 30-60 minutes. So the commit will be probably in about two hours. I think we will all be happy. [05:16] ChrisH: I hope so [05:16] hornbeck: Okay... just thought our emotions came in the way of the work. [05:17] well we seem on the same page now [05:17] so everything is going to be in the /faq directory? [05:20] I am off for a few hours, please go ahead and merge and we will work out details later === pl0vs is looking at the apt man-pages to fix bug: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=3353 [05:53] sivang, awake? [06:01] yes, hre [06:01] herhe [06:03] i am looking at the man-pages atm, thanks for the page [06:03] i was hoping we could have some svn repo, but it will just be in the packages [06:04] pl0vs: Yes, you would need to change the packages themselves. :( [06:04] pl0vs: Perhaps you extract the man page, correct it, create a "diff" and send it through bugzille. [06:04] pl0vs: Same old story: nobody but canonical is supposed to upload "main" packages. [06:04] yes, my understanding says that we just send patches to bugzilla and the packg maintainers would take care of this. [06:04] yes [06:05] sivang, how is the gnome-guide, you did some work on that right? [06:05] ChrisH, well, i have upload status, afaik, or at least i could get it [06:06] you looked at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UDPManPageTask ? [06:06] ChrisH, but i prefer diffing to bugzilla for the time being [06:06] pl0vs: for "main"? really? [06:07] ChrisH, i did not really look into it as i am not planning to use it atm, but afaik i am a maintainer and have the right to upload packages yes [06:07] pl0vs : you were approved on the last CC meeting right? [06:07] That's interesting/ [06:07] pl0vs: I'm not sure about that. But I'm not even a maintainer. :) [06:08] ChrisH, but i would prefer starting on something unimportant, maybe apt is not the right package to experiment with... [06:08] pl0vs: If you just change the man page... that should be fine. :) You just needed to rebuild the package and that's it. [06:09] pl0vs : I think sabdfl noted that he wouldn't want to see people who were supposdly working on docs to commit packages.. [06:09] before they get enough approval by the TB [06:09] he noted something about someone doing so being "a social problem" as they currently lack the infrasructure to enforce that. [06:10] sivang, i agree with him, and i am not (yet) planning to do any of the kind [06:11] well, that just solves my pkging grief maybe :) I had talked to seb128 on the yelp packages, wanted to help on it and eventually this got form as me sneding the patch to bugsilla, [06:11] he asked jdub and the conclusion was they want to keep main packages at canonical hands in the meanwhile. [06:12] sivang, not everybody has the same opinion, read the cc-meeting sabdfl is the most liberal, jdub (if i remember right), more conservative [06:13] sivang: as far as I understood, once we had our gpg keys signed well enough and understood packageing maintainers could upload fixes [06:13] I was told that once my key is signed by a decent amount I could upload [06:13] Hoodster, that is what i understood as well, but i do understand they do not want newbies to mess up main [06:13] btw, on hoary you can already use the official package - my patch is already incorporated into it. [06:13] that was supposed to be hornbeck [06:14] pl0vs: correct, they want us to have some experiance first, but in time we will have upload status [06:14] sivang, does the new yelp read apt man-pages in xml? [06:15] is evolution broke in Hoary for anyone else? [06:15] it stopped working today [06:15] pl0vs : provided that XML is DocBook enough, I guess that it can. [06:15] :-( [06:15] hornbeck : might be, I got really tired with that, switched to mutt and thunderbird in the meanwhile [06:16] I just moved my mail to the server [06:16] sivang, could you try: apt-get source apt, and in the doc folder try one of the xml files? [06:16] really need to get it fixed though so I can use it on my laptop again [06:16] hornbeck, gmail,gmail! [06:16] pl0vs: I am not a big fan of online mail [06:16] I like evolution [06:17] I am thinking of moving to cvs so I can keep track of it [06:17] hornbeck, it has pop-access as well [06:17] pl0vs : yes why not, is this where my bug is sitting? (of the sources.list) [06:17] pl0vs: even with pop access if I have no reader than it will not work [06:17] hornbeck, if evo does not work you have web-access [06:17] hornbeck, and if it does you have evo [06:18] I have web-access to my mail anyway [06:18] hornbeck, or you must set up imap on your server and use evo or mutt [06:18] I just prefer evo [06:18] hornbeck, imap? [06:18] imap? [06:18] imaps rocks [06:18] mutt also [06:18] what is imap may I ask? [06:19] hornbeck, ah, that is pop as it was meant to be [06:19] I will look into that real quick [06:19] hornbeck, search "pop vs imap" on google [06:20] I am reading a imap page right now [06:20] pl0vs : we need to convert it, it doesn't like this form of xml files. [06:21] sivang, hmm too bad, converting it would mean moving far away from debain [06:21] pl0vs : what kind of xml is this? [06:21] sivang, which means a lot of maintenance [06:22] sivang, refentry [06:22] I am not sure yelp is the right tool to display man pages in the desktop [06:22] sivang, ????? [06:22] there's GUI man page readers [06:22] sivang, i humbly disagree [06:22] like xman and it's more civilized desendents. [06:23] sivang, we should have one of-line doc-reader [06:23] sivang, but i remmeber talk about making yelp man-page friendly === pl0vs sometimes remembers things that did not happen, better take another pill... [06:24] I don't recall, I might be mistaken [06:25] I am checking again, [06:25] topday os the GNOME love day dedicated to yelp btw :0 [06:25] :) [06:26] anyone know of a good tutorial about setting up a mail server? [06:26] hornbeck: Yes. ;) But it depends what you want to do. [06:27] pl0vs : yes there are plans to use it for man pages reading :) [06:27]