[01:43] <sivang> night all!
[01:56] <enrico> Hello!  Any news of hornbeck?
[09:16] <plovs> good morning
[10:00] <ChrisH> plovs: hi :)
[10:23] <lulu_> morning all :o)
[01:40] <enrico> Hello!  Someone has seen Hornbeck online recently?
[01:42] <ChrisH> enrico: He's not in my lastlog.
[03:03] <sivang> hi enrico1
[03:03] <sivang> enrico
[03:03] <sivang> hi all
[03:03] <enrico> Hi!
[03:12] <ChrisH> hornbeck has posted to -doc today that he is still alive. :)
[03:13] <sivang> hah
[03:13] <sivang> Hi ChrisH
[03:13] <sivang> :)
[03:17] <sivang> hey lulu_ Q
[03:17] <sivang> !
[03:20] <ChrisH> sivang: Hey, Ivan.
[03:21] <ChrisH> sivang: Already packed your bags?
[03:21] <sivang> hey, isn't that too early for that?
[03:22] <sivang> I like to keep everything to the lasst minute, than forget as much as I can :)
[03:22] <sivang> we're only on the 1st
[03:26] <enrico> sivang: so, does the package compile?
[03:27] <sivang> enrico : let me check again, and tell you what it tells me
[03:29] <sivang> btw, does someone knows how to switch workspaces in gnome using the keybord? the mouse is killing me..
[03:29] <enrico> ALT+arrows
[03:29] <enrico> maybe :)
[03:38] <ChrisH> Ctrl+Alt+Arrows
[03:56] <lulu__> sivang: hiya! 
[04:58] <sivang> I'm here
[04:58] <enrico> So, package build output?
[04:59] <enrico> I mean does it build?
[05:00] <sivang> login as: pooh
[05:00] <sivang> Password:
[05:00] <sivang> Linux tiny 2.4.26-1-386 #1 Tue Aug 24 13:31:19 JST 2004 i586 GNU/Linux
[05:00] <sivang> The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free software;
[05:00] <sivang> the exact distribution terms for each program are described in the
[05:00] <sivang> individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright.
[05:00] <sivang> Debian GNU/Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent
[05:00] <sivang> permitted by applicable law.
[05:00] <sivang> Last login: Wed Dec  1 19:43:41 2004 from 132.68.159.248
[05:00] <sivang> pooh@tiny:~$ ssh 192.168.1.71
[05:00] <sivang> pooh@tiny:~$ ssh 192.168.1.77
[05:00] <sivang> Password:
[05:00] <enrico> sivang: !
[05:00] <sivang> Linux tigershark 2.6.8.1-3-686-smp #1 SMP Fri Nov 26 23:14:47 UTC 2004 i686 GNU/
[05:00] <sivang> Linux
[05:00] <sivang> The programs included with the Ubuntu system are free software;
[05:00] <sivang> the exact distribution terms for each program are described in the
[05:00] <sivang> individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright.
[05:00] <enrico> We're not interested in your login messages :)
[05:00] <sivang> Ubuntu comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by
[05:00] <sivang> applicable law.
[05:00] <sivang> No mail.
[05:00] <sivang> Last login: Wed Dec  1 17:46:49 2004 from tiny
[05:00] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~ $ clear
[05:01] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~ $
[05:01] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~ $
[05:01] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~ $ cd devel/
[05:01] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel $ ks
[05:01] <sivang> -bash: ks: command not found
[05:01] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel $ ls
[05:01] <sivang> docteam
[05:01] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel $ cd docteam/
[05:01] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam $ ls
[05:01] <sivang> faq  STJ
[05:01] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam $ cd faq/
[05:01] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam/faq $ ls
[05:01] <sivang> docutils  faq
[05:01] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam/faq $ cd faq/
[05:01] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam/faq/faq $ ls
[05:01] <sivang> debian  IconUbuntu.png  Makefile  parts  README  ubuntu.xsl  usersguide.xml
[05:01] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam/faq/faq $ clear
[05:01] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam/faq/faq $ ls -la
[05:01] <sivang> total 20
[05:01] <sivang> drwxr-xr-x   5 pooh pooh  129 2004-11-30 21:10 .
[05:01] <sivang> drwxr-xr-x   4 pooh pooh   31 2004-11-30 18:09 ..
[05:01] <sivang> drwxr-xr-x   3 pooh pooh  156 2004-11-30 21:32 debian
[05:01] <sivang> -rw-r--r--   1 pooh pooh 2175 2004-11-21 21:42 IconUbuntu.png
[05:01] <sivang> -rw-r--r--   1 pooh pooh  355 2004-11-30 18:42 Makefile
[05:02] <sivang> drwxr-xr-x  11 pooh pooh  141 2004-11-21 21:42 parts
[05:02] <sivang> -rw-r--r--   1 pooh pooh 2258 2004-11-21 21:42 README
[05:02] <sivang> drwxr-xr-x   7 pooh pooh  153 2004-12-01 00:04 .svn
[05:02] <sivang> -rw-r--r--   1 pooh pooh  779 2004-11-21 21:42 ubuntu.xsl
[05:02] <sivang> -rw-r--r--   1 pooh pooh 3147 2004-11-30 16:43 usersguide.xml
[05:02] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam/faq/faq $
[05:02] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam/faq/faq $
[05:02] <sivang> pooh@tigershark ~/devel/docteam/faq/faq $ svn update
[05:02] <sivang> At revision 73.
[05:02] <sivang> sec
[05:02] <sivang> I think it's not buildgin
[05:02] <sivang> sorry?
[05:02] <sivang> I don't get it the joke, I apologize if I did any wrong
[05:02] <sivang> ahh
[05:02] <sivang> that damn putty
[05:02] <sivang> I can copy and paste like a normal *nix being
[05:02] <sivang> !
[05:03] <sivang> can=can't
[05:04] <sivang>  fakeroot debian/rules build
[05:04] <sivang> test -x debian/rules
[05:04] <sivang> if [ -n "" ] ; then \
[05:04] <sivang>   mkdir -p ""; \
[05:04] <sivang> fi
[05:04] <sivang> if [ ! -d "." ] ; then \
[05:04] <sivang>   mkdir -p "."; \
[05:04] <sivang> fi
[05:04] <sivang> /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/buildcore.mk:59: "DEB_BUILD_MAKE_TARGET is a deprecated variable"
[05:04] <sivang> /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/buildcore.mk:59: "DEB_CLEAN_MAKE_TARGET is a deprecated variable"
[05:04] <sivang> /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/buildcore.mk:59: "DEB_MAKE_TEST_TARGET is a deprecated variable"
[05:04] <sivang> if [ -z "" ] ; then \
[05:04] <sivang>   if ! test -f debian/compat; then echo 4 > debian/compat; fi; \
[05:04] <sivang> fi
[05:04] <sivang> ah
[05:04] <sivang> finally
[05:04] <sivang> that was it did
[05:05] <sivang> enrico : still there or have you given up on me completely ? :)
[05:05] <enrico> I'm here
[05:06] <enrico> upstream builds.  Now let's build the debian package:
[05:06] <enrico> fakeroot debian/rules binary
[05:06] <sivang> why wasn't I getting the /html dir?
[05:07] <enrico> Because you wasn't saying "build" after debian/rules, IIRC
[05:10] <sivang> ok, that what debian/rules bianry gives:
[05:13] <sivang> dpkg-gencontrol: error: source package has two conflicting values - ubuntu-handbook and ubuntu-book
[05:13] <sivang> dh_gencontrol: command returned error code 65280
[05:13] <sivang> make: *** [binary-makedeb-IMPL/ubuntu-handbook]  Error 1
[05:13] <enrico> sivang: that you can fix it without hints
[05:14] <sivang> yes, just noticed it :)
[05:14] <enrico> ChrisH: it does everything you need, and without asking :)
[05:14] <ChrisH> enrico: Sounds like a Microsoft promise. :)
[05:14] <enrico> Eh.  But it also works! :)
[05:14] <sivang> enrico : I just did svn update, so we probably have the same files, now I don't get why it builds for you and for me it doesn't
[05:15] <enrico> sivang: what is that doesn't build?
[05:15] <enrico> I get the same error that you get, while building the .deb 
[05:16] <sivang> enrico : when I just type "fakeroot debian/rules build"
[05:17] <sivang> enrico : but I have the deb created by now :)
[05:17] <enrico> so, have a look inside with mc
[05:17] <sivang> ok
[05:18] <sivang> I am inside the package
[05:18] <sivang> what to do now?
[05:19] <enrico> check if usr/share/doc/... inside the package contains the documentation that you would like it to contain
[05:19] <sivang> ChrisH : CDBS = Common Debian Build System
[05:20] <sivang> it only has : README, changelog.Debian.gz, copyright :(
[05:22] <enrico> sivang: where is the debian/docs file?
[05:22] <enrico> sivang: also asked as: where does the package installs the documentation in the right place? :)
[05:24] <sivang> enrico : hmm, I wanted to create it, but then man dh_installdocs didn't say anything about the format of the docs file, I'll google for it and see what I can find
[05:25] <sivang> enrico : then it got too late and I headed to sleep :)
[05:25] <enrico> sivang: also pull back the log of that discussion, as I think I've been telling you about it
[05:26] <enrico> 20:13 < enrico> now you can add "html/" in debian/docs to have the HTML documentation installed correctly
[05:26] <enrico> in /usr/share/doc
[05:27] <ChrisH> sivang: another layer on top of the debhelper?
[05:28] <sivang> ChrisH : I think so :)
[05:28] <enrico> ChrisH: the definitive layer on top of everything :)
[05:28] <ChrisH> sivang: Then I will write the kcdbswizard which will provide a wizard for writing CDBS rules into the debian/rules file. :)
[05:28] <sivang> hahahah
[05:28] <enrico> I don't think you can simplify CDBS much more
[05:28] <ChrisH> debian/rules is tricky enough already and I found a lot of corners where debhelper isn't even sufficient. I'm curious. Perhaps I'll look into that later. :)
[05:28] <enrico> It lets you make rules files with just one or two lines
[05:28] <ChrisH> enrico: And that still works? :)
[05:28] <sivang> enrico : oh sorry , I overlooked it :( 
[05:29] <enrico> ChrisH: the nice thing it has is that it allows you to say "do it like everyone does", and then specify only where you diverge from common practice
[05:29] <enrico> So, to package a correctly autotoolized package, you need to do just nothing
[05:29] <sivang> this somewhat reminds me of "dpkg-delta" that was discussed the past few days on -devel
[05:29] <sivang> in an association ofcourse, not in functionality
[05:31] <ChrisH> enrico: So I spent two years of packaging practise and now can't impress anyone with it? Darn... :)
[05:32] <enrico> ChrisH: no, no: you can.  In fact, cdbs is totally undocumented.  So, to be able to have an empty debian/rules file, you must be absolutely knowledge of everything that happens.  The empty debian/rules becomes a symbol of your masterdom :)
[05:33] <ChrisH> enrico: Hehe.
[05:33] <ChrisH> enrico: I talked to the Squid maintainer recently and he said he even hates debhelper. Instead he did it all on his own using shell commands. What a mess...
[05:33] <sivang> enrico : ok, I fixed some more stuff in the pkg control files
[05:33] <sivang> enrico : but still it doesn't build
[05:34] <sivang> enrico : my debian/docs files looks like this:
[05:34] <sivang> html/
[05:34] <sivang> [end] 
[05:34] <sivang> and still fakeroot debian/rules build gives:
[05:34] <sivang>  fakeroot debian/rules build
[05:34] <sivang> test -x debian/rules
[05:35] <sivang> if [ -n "" ] ; then \
[05:35] <sivang>   mkdir -p ""; \
[05:35] <sivang> fi
[05:35] <sivang> if [ ! -d "." ] ; then \
[05:35] <sivang>   mkdir -p "."; \
[05:35] <sivang> fi
[05:35] <sivang> /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/buildcore.mk:59: "DEB_BUILD_MAKE_TARGET is a deprecated variable"
[05:35] <sivang> /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/buildcore.mk:59: "DEB_CLEAN_MAKE_TARGET is a deprecated variable"
[05:35] <sivang> /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/buildcore.mk:59: "DEB_MAKE_TEST_TARGET is a deprecated variable"
[05:35] <sivang> if [ -z "" ] ; then \
[05:35] <sivang>   if ! test -f debian/compat; then echo 4 > debian/compat; fi; \
[05:35] <sivang> and nothing more
[05:36] <enrico> ChrisH: sounds like Manoj?
[05:36] <enrico> No, it's not
[05:37] <sivang> what?
[05:37] <enrico> sivang: do a fakeroot debian/rules clean; fakeroot debian/rules binary
[05:37] <sivang> ok
[05:37] <enrico> sivang: I was talking to ChrisH 
[05:37] <sivang> ah!
[05:38] <sivang> working!
[05:38] <sivang> :)
[05:38] <sivang> at last
[05:38] <sivang> I would just love know what I did wrong :)
[05:39] <sivang> checked the pacakge,
[05:39] <sivang> it _has_ content this time
[05:39] <sivang> :)
[05:39] <enrico> Cheers for sivan's first Debian package!
[05:39] <enrico> W00T!
[05:40] <sivang> ah, this word I havn't heared since last time talking to my scottish freind!
[05:40] <sivang> he lives on Lawton
[05:41] <ChrisH> enrico: not Manoj this time
[05:41] <sivang> ok,
[05:41] <sivang> now to learn how to register files into scrollkeeper and we have the first original ubuntu doc team pacakge
[05:41] <sivang> :)
[05:42] <sivang> lib is closing..:)
[05:42] <sivang> shift suprevisor beggs people to leave now, hehe
[05:42] <sivang> :)
[05:42] <enrico> sivang: later, then
[05:42] <sivang> however most of the ignore him currently ;)
[05:43] <sivang> enrico : ok, I'll be back online when laptop is free again/in an hour
[05:44] <sivang> enrico : I sudo dpkg -i <pkg> , works without a glitch
[05:44] <sivang> :-0
[05:44] <sivang> :-)
[05:44] <sivang> ok, bye for now everybody, c'ya in a bunch
[05:54] <enrico> He was so happy he forgot to commit :)
[06:41] <enrico> sivang: commit!
[06:41] <sivang> ok I will NOW!
[06:41] <sivang> :)
[06:41] <enrico> Or you may want to try scrollkeepering as well
[06:41] <enrico> and don't forget doc-base :)
[06:43] <sivang> ha?
[06:43] <sivang> doc-base is for man pages only isn't it?
[06:44] <enrico> No: it's to index documentation
[06:45] <enrico> see dh_installdocs manpage
[06:45] <sivang> ok, I'll read it to the end now :)
[06:45] <enrico> and also see the documentation inside the doc-base package
[06:45] <sivang> ok, then I'll install doc-base firstly
[06:52] <sivang> commited
[06:52] <sivang> please check :)
[06:52] <sivang> I don't think the package has been uploaded there though
[06:52] <sivang> I need to svn add it probably
[06:54] <enrico> don't svn add the package
[06:54] <enrico> Since it can be generated automatically from the rest
[06:54] <enrico> sivang: svn stauts
[06:54] <enrico> will probably tell you that you forgot to add debian/docs :)
[06:55] <enrico> always do svn status before a commit
[07:04] <sivang> enric : how can I remove a file/dir from the svn commit log ? (so it won't commit it)
[07:05] <sivang> I accidently added the ubuntu-handbook dir
[07:05] <sivang> that was created under debian
[07:10] <enrico> sivang: svn rm debian/ubuntu-handbook
[07:11] <sivang> ok, I did it :)
[07:12] <sivang> enrico : now, do I need debian/files or can I remove it? I want to clean up the package dir
[07:12] <sivang> it contains:
[07:12] <sivang> ubuntu-handbook_0.1-1_all.deb text optional
[07:13] <enrico> sivang: to clean up the package dir, do "fakeroot debian/rules clean"
[07:13] <sivang> ok
[07:14] <sivang> beautiful!
[07:14] <sivang> :)
[07:14] <sivang> ok, I commited
[07:14] <sivang> you can now check on me
[07:17] <enrico> great!
[07:17] <enrico> yelp time!
[07:17] <enrico> scrollkeeper!
[07:17] <enrico> I have no idea what needs to be done for that, though
[07:18] <enrico> I suggest you find a package which provides docs for yelp, and we see what they do
[07:18] <enrico> Pick one from "apt-cache showpkg yelp" (shows reverse dependencies) and let's see
[07:27] <sivang> ok
[07:27] <sivang> but,
[07:27] <sivang> I didn't finsih with doc-base yet
[07:39] <lulu__> night all :o)
[07:40] <sivang> is the hornbeck repo still online?
[07:40] <ChrisH> sivang: affirmative
[07:40] <sivang> I am trinyg to co but
[07:41] <sivang> pooh@bluespace ~/devel/faq $ svn co http://69.155.172.150/faq
[07:41] <sivang> svn: PROPFIND request failed on '/faq'
[07:41] <sivang> svn: PROPFIND of '/faq': 400 Bad Request (http://69.155.172.150)
[07:41] <ChrisH> sivang: "svn update"?
[07:41] <sivang> don't I need to check out first if I wawnt to download to a new folder/mchine?
[07:42] <ChrisH> sivang: yes
[07:43] <ChrisH> sivang: old proxy in between you and hornbeck?
[07:45] <sivang> maybe
[07:46] <ChrisH> sivang: I needed to enable those request methods in a very very very old version of squid once upon a time
[07:46] <ChrisH> sivang: do you have a squid?
[07:47] <sivang> I have to go now,
[07:47] <sivang> sorry
[07:47] <sivang> (lib closing :)
[07:47] <sivang> ChrisH ; ttl
[07:47] <ChrisH> sivang: :)
[08:21] <enrico> hello sivang !
[08:21] <enrico> how's with scrollkeeper and docbase?
[08:23] <sivang> still reading...
[08:23] <enrico> sivang: ok, take your time
[08:29] <ChrisH> enrico: May I bother you with my draft (two pages and a drawing) of the new maintainers paper I'm preparing? I remotely remember you offered to take a look. :)
[08:29] <sivang> ChrisH : I also offered to help, as the first one going under the NM process :
[08:29] <sivang> :)
[08:29] <sivang> help=take a look
[08:29] <enrico> ChrisH: sure!
[08:31] <ChrisH> http://workaround.org/ubuntu/nm/
[08:31] <ChrisH> I admit the drawing is ugly and the text doesn't look like O'Reilly... but it's more about brainstorming of what could be done how.
[08:32] <ChrisH> Would be glad to get critics on it. I'm feeling a bit lost about what Mark would expect.
[08:35] <sivang> ChrisH : the text looks nice and sane :)
[08:35] <sivang> havn't looked at the drawing yet
[08:37] <enrico> s/contributers/contributors/
[08:37] <ChrisH> k
[08:37] <sivang> the drawing I seem to not completly understand, maybe due to lack of policy knowledge :)
[08:38] <ChrisH> sivang: Well, it's an uploading workflow. Would help to say a few words. :)
[08:38] <ChrisH> sivang: The upload uploads the package, then it gets checked, then some other things happen, then it gets reviewed and finally is put into the repositories.
[08:39] <ChrisH> sivang: It's a possible workflow from the thoughts I gathered in the text document.
[08:39] <ChrisH> sivang: But as there does not seem to be even an NM meeting/BOF during my stay it may be hard to submit this information.
[08:39] <sivang> ChrisH : I like VERY much the high attention to details, I don't think canonical has yet thought about it in such a way :)
[08:39] <ChrisH> sivang: So I wanted to check with enrico and you and perhaps just give it to him. lulu said he has hardly any time for personal talks.
[08:40] <ChrisH> sivang: I just tried to figure out how it could look. There are not yet "roles". And if you ask anyone from Canonical you get unclear answers about who is allowed what.
[08:40] <ChrisH> sivang: That would be the kind of information I needed first. :)
[08:40] <enrico> ChrisH: at the conf you can talk with many canonical people.  Mako would be a good one.  Elmo will be there, too, although he usually doesn't talk :)
[08:40] <sivang> ChrisH : and that you've listed so many use cases, so if this actually gets realized little or no modification would be needed to the perliminary design should should problems arise.
[08:41] <sivang> Mark is going to be mighty busy then
[08:41] <sivang> if lulu said this
[08:41] <enrico> he was mighty busy in Oxford, so I imagine he'll be even more
[08:42] <sivang> Well, we could always talk to Matt Zimmerman and Jeff Vaugh
[08:42] <sivang> we=you, ChrisH
[08:43] <enrico> ChrisH: I've read the first page
[08:43] <ChrisH> Well, Mark asked me to sum this up. So I assume it's not for the bin. :)
[08:44] <enrico> the impression so far is that it would allow a very slick workflow, but it risks creating many conflicts since one doesn't have a well-delimited territory.  This may not be bad, but needs some ways for conflict resolution for the system to scale
[08:44] <enrico> but I still haven't read the second page: hang on
[08:45] <ChrisH> enrico: What conflicts would you think of? Dependencies? Concurring package versions?
[08:47] <enrico> ChrisH: I mean two people with different views on how to package something, or on how to fix a bug, or if a version should go in or not
[08:48] <enrico> Since everyone can upload any package, I can see scenarios in which I upload, you upload because you think yours is better, I upload because I think mine is better and so on
[08:49] <sivang> I think that people who are granted the title " maintainers" should be able to upload,
[08:49] <ChrisH> enrico: Mark's vision was to allow anyone (module people not having a trusted PGP key) to upload packages.
[08:49] <sivang> others should be reviewed excluding specific conditions.
[08:49] <ChrisH> enrico: So the hassle of an NM process for people who just want to upload would not be necessary.
[08:49] <enrico> ChrisH: I think it's a nice idea.
[08:49] <enrico> ChrisH: I'm just asking myself what happens in case of a conflict
[08:50] <sivang> allowing everybody to upload can create a tramendous workload on the review process.
[08:50] <enrico> ChrisH: maybe a moderator?
[08:50] <sivang> and ofcourse, we need to keep main clean as possilbe,
[08:50] <sivang> as this can break production system to no avail
[08:50] <enrico> Or if there is a conflich, the tech team or the community council can rule on it
[08:50] <ChrisH> enrico: He even does not want to have package stickyness. Nobody "owns" a package - everybody can upload. Of course some human interaction would be needed to not rush things.
[08:50] <enrico> then if one doesn't comply, upload with his key can be suspended for a while
[08:51] <sivang> sounds good, enrico
[08:51] <sivang> I suggest a very strict automatic checking is done on the packages,
[08:51] <ChrisH> enrico: Yes, the "moderator" would be a good idea. There needs to be a way to handle less- and more-experienced packageers.
[08:51] <sivang> uh0ha
[08:52] <enrico> ChrisH: like a karma, then?
[08:52] <ChrisH> enrico: I would suggest to have just a policy check for the gurus and a better "mentoring" for the less fortunate.
[08:52] <ChrisH> enrico: Perhaps like a karma. I just wouldn't know what to do with the karma. :)
[08:52] <sivang> so any package that does not complye with main rules should be discarded with maybe a message to the uploaded, that if he wants his package accepted he should contact a tech board member and consult him
[08:53] <ChrisH> enrico: karma=0 => full mentoring. karma>10=> automatic checks. karma>100 => access to Mark's bank account
[08:53] <sivang> uploaded=uploader
[08:53] <sivang> hmmm
[08:53] <sivang> 100 sounds nice
[08:53] <enrico> Maybe it could be left anarchic at the beginning, with some entity able to rule over conflicts, and then if conflicts happen too often, one can look at ways to make things scale
[08:53] <ChrisH> sivang: Something like that.
[08:53] <sivang> although just becoming a canonical employe would be enough for me :)
[08:54] <enrico> ChrisH: you actually displayed a very nice NM process: at the beginning, one checks everything you do.  When one gets confident, releases things, until you're considered fully a maintainer
[08:54] <sivang> a system for managing packages creation "trust management" is needed :)
[08:54] <enrico> Testing by practice
[08:54] <sivang> basically, this is actually how it's done currently, as list per the first full process NM candidate :)
[08:55] <sivang> I have to CC pitti evrything I work on wrt to devel, and update him on my advancement.
[08:55] <ChrisH> enrico: I still would like to have a feature like "mentoring wanted". I wish packageers could set a "help" flag (perhaps in the "control" file) where they plea for mentoring. So even if the package is clean they need some "sponsor" to help them create better packages.
[08:55] <sivang> He is also sponsering my uploads when he will be confident enough in me,
[08:55] <sivang> (to take my pkgs and upload)
[08:55] <sivang> and in the meanwhile I only work through patchs in the bugzilla
[08:55] <sivang> brb
[08:56] <enrico> ChrisH: information about users, I'd add a copy of a piece of ID, or home address or something, in order for someone to be able to come and pick you up in case you upload malicious code
[08:57] <ChrisH> enrico: hehe
[08:58] <enrico> Sure, mentoring wanted is nice.  But it may be better implemented, I think, by uploading in experimental and then asking for help in some list
[08:59] <enrico> Experimental is like a wiki in which you drop packages, and then people can have a look and tell you what they think
[09:02] <ChrisH> Yes, I thought about a second uploading pool. The normal pool and an iffy pool.
[09:04] <enrico> but then you have "iffy" and "experimental"
[09:04] <enrico> what is the difference between the two?
[09:05] <ChrisH> I thought about "normal" (like in the workflow) and "iffy" (like a request-for-comments area) where packages are never included in the distribution but other people are asked to review it.
[09:05] <ChrisH> Basically 'iffy' and 'experimental' are the same.
[09:06] <ChrisH> 'iffy' just would mean that it's not just there for the matter of their existence but that the uploader asks for help/review explicitly.
[09:08] <ChrisH> I don't like the NM process in Debian at all. And although Mark's vision and some of my proposals may sound revolutionarily insecure I think it could be a valid way to go. There are just people in Debian who like to get sponsored because they are too iffy about the work they do. Would be really bad to have a flood of badly packaged programs in the pool just because it's made too easy.
[09:08] <enrico> but also in experimental one would ask for help/review explicitly, isn't it?
[09:08] <ChrisH> enrico: I think you are right.
[09:09] <enrico> Oh, don't get me wrong: I do agree this is indeed an interesting process to try!
[09:10] <enrico> And I like the idea of having different levels of involvement, and slowly go from one to the other as you prove you work well
[09:10] <ChrisH> enrico: Is it too far fetched? Perhaps you know more about the package handling in Ubuntu. That's why I'm anxious if what I wrote is too incompletely or just plainly wrong because things cannot be handled what way (talking about "soyus" for example).
[09:10] <enrico> Like, I'm sponsoring a person that always makes his packages right.  After 10 times, I'd really like him/her to be able to just upload directly to unstable, as I'm not checking his/her packages anymore anyway
[09:11] <enrico> ChrisH: unfortunately, I don't know much about soyuz and the other supercool things they're making
[09:11] <enrico> I just know they're making supercool things :)
[09:11] <enrico> Can't wait in Matar to see some prototypes
[09:11] <enrico> Last time in Oxford you could only see ER diagrams at the walls :)
[09:16] <sivang> this would be cool to see what came out of those ER diagram
[09:16] <sivang> :)
[09:17] <enrico> Oh, yes :)
[09:18] <sivang> hey plovs
[09:20] <plovs> sivang: hi!
[09:20] <sivang> hi again,
[09:20] <sivang> still problems with the network?
[09:21] <plovs> no, just working
[09:21] <plovs> and having problems with my mouse
[09:21] <plovs> duh
[09:23] <sivang> oh, you seemed very  busy in work the last couple of days :)
[09:23] <sivang> oh well, that's always a good thing.
[09:24] <sivang> enrico : I have a dh_installdocs question
[09:24] <plovs> yes, trying to get vpn woprking, but its not so simple with our network layout
[09:24] <enrico> sivang: sure!
[09:24] <sivang> plovs : at home ? or are you proxing through work still/\?
[09:25] <plovs> im at work atm
[09:25] <sivang> enrico : how come in all of the dh_installdocs man page there is not even a single referencec to debian/docs text file?
[09:25] <sivang> nothing about it's format, etc
[09:25] <enrico> ChrisH: anyhow, I think it's an interesting proposal.  Besides conflict resolution (for which we've seen possibilities), I don't think I have much to add
[09:25] <enrico> ChrisH: then, if it doesn't match with Soyuz, it's Mark that'll have to tell you what Soyuz is anyway ;)
[09:25] <enrico> sivang: there is here
[09:26] <enrico> sivang: although very tiny:
[09:26] <enrico>        Files named debian/package.docs can list other files to be installed.
[09:26] <enrico> that's it :)
[09:27] <sivang> oh :)
[09:27] <sivang> but I created a file JUST named "docs"
[09:27] <sivang> under debian
[09:27] <sivang> not, package.docs
[09:27] <enrico> "docs" is a shortcut for "package.docs" in case you only generate a single binary package
[09:27] <sivang> I am confused
[09:27] <enrico> (well, the manpage doesn't say that)
[09:27] <sivang> ah
[09:27] <enrico> plovs: you're too intelligent for american politics
[09:27] <enrico> plovs: you can spell
[09:28] <sivang> plovs : nahh! they're not :) and yes, you are MUCH too intelligent for american politics = YOU KNOW ReST for heavens sake! :))
[09:28] <enrico> plovs: the trendy thing now is people who can launch missiles they can't spell
[09:28] <enrico> plovs: nucular weppons
[09:29] <sivang> hehehe
[09:29] <sivang> everytime I try play with rest, it hits me! 
[09:29] <plovs> enrico: have you ever wondered if he does it on purpose? a person can not be that dumb can he?
[09:30] <enrico> I think it can
[09:30] <sivang> plovs : who ?
[09:30] <enrico> There are no limits to human stupidity
[09:30] <plovs> terrorist try hard to hurt amerika, so are we...
[09:30] <sivang> plovs : who is the dumb guy?
[09:30] <ChrisH> back... (Marco doesn't sleep well tonight)
[09:30] <plovs> a bush-quote
[09:30] <sivang> oh
[09:30] <sivang> :)
[09:30] <enrico> I have an Ockam Razor: if it can be because of stupidity, it is
[09:31] <sivang> but let's not talk politics,
[09:31] <enrico> plovs: that quote is cute
[09:31] <sivang> I get a bad irritation by it
[09:31] <sivang> :)
[09:31] <plovs> sivang: agreed
[09:31] <ChrisH> enrico, sivang: thanks for your suggestions. I'll still think about the levels of karma. Perhaps I find something more.
[09:32] <sivang> ChrisH : no problem buddy :) I am always interested in commeting :)
[09:32] <enrico> ChrisH: that was just a random thing thrown there.  Thinking more about it now, I think it shouldn't be introduced right from the start, but just if you see later that the community could use it
[09:33] <enrico> ChrisH: I think conflict resolution by the CC would be better as a starter
[09:33] <enrico> ChrisH: more things should come if that is used too much
[09:34] <ChrisH> enrico: I like the idea of karma. Although I wouldn't like to have people compare who has more of it.
[09:35] <sivang> measures to take out competition is a very good idea indeed, we just need to see how we can keep out those code abusers from abusing such a wonderfully open, FOSS revolutionary approach
[09:36] <enrico> sivang: Oh, you wouldn't be anonymous, which means you are less encouraged to abuse
[09:36] <enrico> sivang: EHI!  And scrollkeeper? :)
[09:36] <sivang> enrico : oh right
[09:36] <sivang> enrico : I've switched to scrollkeepr now, I'll first make it work in yelp and then register it in doc-base
[09:37] <sivang> enrico : that may not be ready today, though. It usually takes me some time to digest and then I produce :)
[09:37] <sivang> tommorow latest.
[09:38] <enrico> sivang: take your time.  Don't forget about it, because I'm curious :)
[09:39] <sivang> k, no prob
[09:39] <sivang> :)
[10:43] <ChrisH> It's somehow different to go there with the family instead of just hanging around with some drunken developers in a tavern even spanish people have ever heard of and eating cold pizza in the morning.
[10:44] <ChrisH> Sure, I always forget about the old cola. :)
[10:44] <enrico> pay attention to calimocho
[10:45] <enrico> Spaniards mix cola with bad red wine
[10:45] <enrico> The results makes you drunk for cheap and doesn't taste like vinegar
[10:45] <enrico> it's called "calimocho"
[10:45] <ChrisH> How much can an average DD take of that? :)
[10:46] <enrico> I prefer Sangria, honestly
[10:47] <ChrisH> Yay... Sangria is nice. And a good paella.
[10:47] <ChrisH> Wodka, grappa? Bah. That's car fuel.
[10:47] <plovs> enrico: what is grappa?
[10:47] <enrico> plovs: the italian way to strong alchool.  Doesn't give you headache the next morning, though
[10:48] <enrico> plovs: really harsh, but leaves a good taste in your mouth if it comes from good grapes
[10:48] <plovs> ah, i hardly ever drink vodka, only with sostroming
[10:48] <enrico> plovs: google gives you something
[10:49] <enrico> plovs: wine.about.com/libraries/types/bl_grappa.htm
[10:50] <ChrisH> Another member of mentors.debian.net has created his own flavor of "winetea". :) http://winetea.mine.nu
[10:50] <ChrisH> He is also an Italian... but he won't come.
[11:14] <sivang> people, I'm out
[11:15] <sivang> tired
[11:15] <sivang> night all!
[11:35] <plovs> good night
[11:42] <enrico> plovs: good night!