[12:06] night [12:14] fabbione: I tracked down the stability problem I had with 2.6.9-1; it is unrelated to the UB problem and filed as https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4332 === mirak_ [~mirak@AAubervilliers-152-1-24-90.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:24] so this poor macedonians are having all kinds of trouble with getting these CDs it seems [12:25] the custom officials open the package and see 10 copies of the same cd and just freak out [12:25] heh [12:27] mdz: so, we don't have a component for linux 2.6.9 yet [12:27] mdz: i need inotify kernel headers on the buildds [12:28] jdub: "linux" should be used for all kernel stuff, generally [12:28] mdz: should i make a new component, linux-source...? [12:28] ah, okay [12:28] jdub: you do not need kernel headers on the buildds [12:28] bluefoxicy, ping [12:28] lamont, hey [12:28] jdub: whatever it is, it shouldn't rely on kernel headers on the build system [12:28] hrm [12:29] i don't think it *relies* on them [12:29] no, has a local header for it [12:31] jdub: kernel headers should never be included in user space [12:31] trulux: yo [12:31] it's okay, it has a local copy [12:33] lamont, do you the hardened debian project? [12:33] jdub: perfect [12:33] lamont, i have some documentation you could find interesting, it's at http://wiki.debian-hardened.org/Main_Page [12:34] trulux: I think I may have heard something about it [12:34] will look at the docs [12:36] lamont, fine [12:36] lamont, what job/activy are you taking at Ubuntu? === trulux has finished the libssp, but still debian package fails building, needs further checking [12:41] trulux: I'm the buildd and general fix-broken-things guy [12:43] lamont, great, if you want i can send you now the tarball with the 0.2 revision, but don't distribute it yet, use it for yur own fun, we will release it after we do some docs and also clean some of the ssp.c routines [12:44] trulux: you going to be in mataro? === jdz_ [~jdz@69.49.156.181] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:49] lamont, i think not :( i want to, but i'm 15 years old and it's difficult to say "hey, i'm going to matar, i take my lapto and a few money, see you soon!" [12:49] yeah - that could be a bit of a challenge... :-) [12:51] lamont, yep :( [12:51] lamont, i was in another con with my father, he just left me alone when i was in it, i've the presentation of hardened debian there [12:51] (undercon 8th edition) [12:52] it's the spanish version of the defcon, our hackmeeting is more about political and philosphical terms, the undercon is only about the stuff we work on ;-) [12:53] lamont, i can dcc you the tarball, do you want it? [12:55] i must go to sleep [12:55] too late here === eruin [~eruin@eruin.user] has joined #ubuntu-devel === remon [~remon@210-64-dsl.ipact.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:56] no dcc here. [12:57] lamont, let me upload them in a sec [12:57] I won't get any chance to look at it until at least mataro [12:57] but wouldn't mind having a copy to look through if I manage to make time for it. [12:59] lamont, ok [12:59] i'm uploading it [01:01] done [01:01] to where? [01:02] lamont, http://lorenzo.debian-hardened.org/debhard/libssp-0.2.tar.gz [01:02] there ;-) [01:02] now i must go to sleep [01:02] hope talk to you tomorrow [01:02] good night! [01:02] later [01:03] it's still beta code [01:03] yeah === mirak [~knoppix@AAubervilliers-152-1-15-133.w82-121.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel === bluefoxicy back from school [01:33] bluefoxicy: public away sucks [01:33] yep [01:33] it's homosexual! [01:33] well, blue is [01:34] but ill leave him be before he starts ranting here too [01:34] tseng: someone pinged me === Astharot [isager@host120-161.pool8254.interbusiness.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:35] good evening [01:35] wait a second, Sturzflut trulux and blue? [01:35] are you guys trolling up hardened debian again [01:35] no :) [01:36] no official support from me :) [01:37] tseng: I dragged trulux in here to discuss the potential to add -fstack-protector to ubuntu :) [01:37] since he claims to be close on that [01:37] ok [01:37] id discourage any of the build-by-default patches [01:37] he's a smart kid; him, flut, and lv have together managed to put the ssp symbols into an external library [01:38] is that working? [01:38] I have no idea [01:38] tseng: it works [01:38] it was giving duplicates when in libgcc [01:38] I think I'm the first person to actually try it :) [01:38] tseng: build-by-default I like [01:38] I got a problem, I can't install grub [01:38] anymore [01:38] bluefoxicy: it doesnt fit outside of gentoo [01:38] tseng: There's a specs patch that gets the specs from the environment variable GCC_SPECS [01:38] tigger^ wrote it [01:39] it says stage1 is corrupted [01:39] trulux is adding that to hardened debian's GCC [01:39] that's what I'm using now [01:39] yes, that is still not it [01:39] gcc profiles would be nice [01:39] do you guys have a channel we could go to [01:39] tseng: vanilla specs can be "default," but the debian maintainer's tools can default to a hardened spec [01:39] tseng: #debian-hardened [01:39] thanks [01:40] *(^()*_(^+*^ metacity [01:42] when &*%)%^*( mplayer goes into a loop popping up error boxes, it becomes very problematic to kill it, since it )*&%*^_%*(^%*(^*& steals focus. [01:42] give me my damn NEVER *&)%*^_(^ STEAL FOCUS option, please [01:42] hrm... seb128 probably wasn't here for that venting... [01:42] jdub? [01:43] yo [01:43] lamont: C-A-F1 ; pkill mplayer [01:44] Mithrandir: if it didn't steal focus, I wouldn't have to bounce out to a vty [01:45] lamont: true enough [01:45] lamont: things have to break before they get better :) [01:45] lamont: file bugs in bugzilla.gnome.org [01:45] jdub: thanks === Mithrandir wonders why DMA seems not to be enabled when reading from the DVD === Mithrandir turns it on, and CPU load drops immediately. [01:46] lamont: the focus stealing stuff has been in devel for a while now [01:46] lamont: but is only turned back on during devel branch :) === chrisa [~chris@nullcode.org] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:47] jdub: they've been doing lots of work to make it smart about when it steals. All I want is an option that says "never steal focus from the current window". [01:48] in many cases it doesn't [01:48] if you've found a stupid case where it does [01:48] that should be fixed [01:48] if that option is there, it will never be fixed [01:48] ask me to tell you about the window button switcher horrors sometime :) === Fubar [FTTP@207-38-252-211.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:49] hello [01:49] how is ubuntu coming along ? :) [01:49] jdub: yeah, all I want is the 'be stupid' option [01:49] lamont: otherwise known as the "never actually fix the problem" option :) [01:51] jdub: when I run an xterm from inside another window, who's to say that I _WANT_ it to take focus. In fact, I have a case or 3 where I specifically _DON'T_ want focus given to the child window. [01:51] and there is _NO_WAY_ for metacity to know what I'm currently thinking. [01:51] so it's not "never fix the problem", it's "quit trying to read my )*&%*&^P mind" [01:53] lamont: depends on your activity in the former window [01:53] no. [01:53] heh [01:53] in the use case in question, I just ran a script. [01:53] it launches 12 xterms. [01:53] I want focus to stay in the current window [01:53] because I'm not done there [01:54] so if you're not done, and there is activity, hooray for doing the right thing [01:54] also, xterm makes life harder [01:54] so perhaps things that don't grok the standards can be special cased [01:54] Kamion: I don't suppose you're still around [01:54] there are lots of options here beyond reading your mind [01:54] did I mention the sleep 1 after each of the 12 xterm launches? [01:54] you need to write down the use case so someone has a chance of analysing it [01:54] I _WANT_ focus to be under the mouse. period. [01:55] if I _WANT_ it somewhere else, I want to have to move the mouse. [01:55] that use case is specifically and diametrically opposed to metacity's current design [01:55] dude, people have said the same thing about "I _WANT_ the window switcher button applet to be X pixels wide!" [01:55] window switcher button applet? [01:55] suddenly, when it "just works", they stop complaining because they don't even realise there's a problem [01:56] 10:03 < lamont> that use case is specifically and diametrically opposed to [01:56] metacity's current design [01:56] ^ "current behaviour" [01:56] that's why we fix things to just work [01:56] if you don't provide use cases, that can't happen [01:56] if we keep making options so we don't have to actually fix the software, that can't happne [01:57] I guess the real issue is that I fail to see that it's a problem. :-) [01:57] sure, the answer might end up being, "we don't believe this use case is important" or "we can't deal with that when you're using xterm" [01:57] dude [01:57] you have a problem with the current behaviour [01:57] that is what we're talking about === eruin [~eruin@eruin.user] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:57] if it weren't a problem, you wouldn't raise it [01:58] I meant I have some difficulty understanding why stealing focus is actually _solving_ a problem. [01:58] dude [01:58] the whole point of the work being done on metacity is "focus stealing avoidance" [01:59] jdub: which is based fundamentally on the decision that stealing focus is a good thing (under the right circumstances) [01:59] yes, absolutley [01:59] when i run an application [01:59] i expect to be able to type into it [01:59] without changing the focus [01:59] however, when i run an application and am still doing things elsewhere, [01:59] so my read of it is "we've decided to break things in the general case because we think this is a neat feature, and now we're going to special case the hell out of things for where we have to agree that it's a bad thing" [01:59] i don't really want it stealing the focus [01:59] no [02:00] ah, therein lies the difference. [02:00] when I run an application, I expect to move the mouse into that window before I type. [02:00] That's why I have FOCUS=MOUSE. [02:00] okay, so imagine you have a bug in a piece of software [02:00] like ls === sivang [~sivang@80.179.93.130.forward.012.net.il] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:00] it works under strace [02:00] but never works on its own [02:00] so you decide that it's easier for people to run it in strace [02:00] instead of fixing the bug [02:01] when it comes to behavioural bugs [02:01] jdub: I decided that it's easier for _ME_ to run it that way. [02:01] it is better to fix the problem than provide an option to 'unbreak me' [02:01] the whole thing is about letting the user _DECIDE_ how he wants it to behave/ [02:01] and I can' [02:01] t [02:01] oh man [02:01] right [02:01] now i have to tell you about the window switcher buttons === sivang [~sivang@80.179.93.130.forward.012.net.il] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:02] during the gnome 2.0 development process [02:02] all the options for the window list were removed [02:02] and work began on making it 'just work' [02:02] there was a massive, massive flamewar [02:03] because people used the options to make it work correctly [02:03] I can see that [02:03] in various use cases [02:03] after about two months [02:03] the flamewar died down [02:04] this was before there was a general understanding of how to do 'just works' development [02:04] so no one actually realised that it had improved to such an extent that it did the right thing [02:04] and wasn't punching them in the face [02:04] so they didn't think to complain [02:05] so if the focus issues in metacity are punching you in the face, [02:05] you need to explain your use cases [02:05] so they can be taken into account [02:05] right. [02:05] even if you think they're totally impossible to handle [02:06] my use case is 15? years of having whatever window is under the mouse be the one that has focus. period. [02:06] yeah - it's not what the new user wants. But it's what my brain is trained to. [02:06] and hands [02:06] because seriously, those window list option removals made "using gnome impossible" for so many people... until it just worked. [02:07] lamont: i'm not going to solve your problem, but consider a change in behaviour in sloppy focus mode. [02:07] so when an app pops up a window and that suddenly has focus clear across the screen until I either (1) leave and reenter the current window, or (2) left click, then it messes with my head [02:07] lamont: this is not impossible. [02:07] if you think it's impossible, your brain is closed to clever ways to fix it. [02:08] jdub: I still move the mouse across the screen to the (now focused) window. [02:08] jdub,lamont : what bug# are you discussing? [02:08] I expect that with time, I'll untrain 15 years of training, but that's a productivity pain in the meantime [02:08] there's no bug# [02:08] lamont: i don't think you're listening. :) [02:08] sivang: the bug is that I expect focus to remain under the mouse at all times, and metacity is being smart. [02:09] no dude [02:09] that's not the bug [02:09] jdub: you're saying that metacity could/should be taught to better understand when it should move focus to the new window. I understand that. [02:09] jdub : Oh, you mean where ever you put the moust there should be the focus set? [02:09] by explaining it that way, you're ignoring behaviour [02:09] sivang: that's how I've operated since X10. [02:10] jdub: OK. metacity should better understand when it should not move focus to the new window. [02:10] you guys ever tried rightclicking the desktop, opening a terminal, then doing the same thing again? [02:10] none of the windows have focus. [02:10] eruin: under metacity, the last terminal launched has focus [02:10] the first terminal gets focus, but when you open the second one - none of them get it [02:11] not here [02:11] the terminal is not getting focus here [02:11] only when i move the mouse over it [02:11] mine doesn't get focus until I click it === lamont hasn't quite upgraded the desktop machine (this one) to hoary. That's inplan for tonight [02:12] lamont: ... so you're talking about warty's metacity? [02:12] jdub: is the second phrasing more consistant with what you want me to say? [02:12] yeah [02:12] sheeeeesh [02:12] dude [02:12] jdub: but either way.... [02:12] no [02:12] not either wya [02:12] When metacity should better understand when it should not move focus to the new window? never. (my use case) [02:12] it is specifically not enabled in warty's metacity [02:13] huh??? [02:13] it==?? [02:13] the focus stealing prevention changes [02:13] ok. I'll bitch after I upgrade. [02:13] what metacity should do (imo anyway) is give focus to user-opened windows by default, _unless_ the user started using another window while the opened window was still being opened [02:14] anyone know where I can find the 2.6.8 kernel that was used before beeing updated ? [02:14] (apt-get -udy dist-upgrade finally finished... that is to say, the local mirror finally came current.) [02:14] mirak: there never was a 2.6.8 in Ubuntu; we started with 2.6.8.1 [02:14] it was updated with dis-upgrade but I have troubles with it [02:14] mdz, 2.6.8.1 yes [02:14] mdz, 2.6.8.1-3 [02:14] question for ubuntu developers: Does Ubuntu have any plans to coordinate issues with the hardware manufacturers if they provide their own drivers? [02:14] I'm sure I saw my 2.6.8.1-kernel get upgraded last week or so [02:14] Fubar: yes [02:14] mdz, it was just changed two days ago [02:15] I need the old version [02:15] lilo can't boot the new one, and I have problems with grub [02:15] mdz: See i had an issue for my video system, and im not sure if its an x or driver bug [02:15] mirak: unless you're on sparc, it hasn't had any significant changes since 2004-11-02 [02:15] mdz, or I could use warty 2.6.8 [02:15] well there be an athlon(xp)-specific kernel or is that pointless (ie there wouldn't be any gain from k7) [02:15] will* [02:15] mdz, it was updated two days ago [02:15] mdz: i reported it and daniel thought it was due to the video card drivers... [02:16] mirak: mirak: unless you're on sparc, it hasn't had any significant changes since 2004-11-02 [02:16] said he was making changes to upstream [02:16] but that there was nothing he could do [02:16] mdz, significant dosn't mean no change [02:16] so all these issues i take it go back into the system to see if they can be fixed later on right ? [02:16] mdz, I told you it was dist upgraded two days ago [02:16] mirak: for i386, it was a recompile [02:16] zero code changes [02:16] mdz, then something changed [02:17] I don't know what [02:17] ubuntu very nice on balance for linux distro [02:17] maybe some options where changed [02:17] probably an issue with your initrd; this really isn't the place to discuss it [02:17] mdz, if you don't use lilo you probably not noticed it [02:17] why not [02:18] /topic [02:18] i didn't got another answer than reinstall the system [02:18] is there a mailing list I could follow to know things like why nvidia 6629 isn't in restricted yet, etc? [02:18] on #ubuntu [02:18] eruin: ubuntu-devel [02:18] cheers [02:18] mdz, I just need to know what changed that's all [02:19] mirak: I've told you, and you don't believe me [02:19] eruin: it has issues; stability among them, iirc. [02:19] there is nothing more I can do to help you [02:19] mdz, the initrd problem ? [02:20] pfff === ironwolf [~ironwolf@c-24-6-169-124.client.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mirak_ [~mirak@AAubervilliers-152-1-6-5.w82-121.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mira1 [~karim@AAubervilliers-152-1-6-5.w82-121.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:24] mdz: ok, I managed to boot with lilo [02:24] I don't exactly what make it work [02:25] I have increased the ramdisk size option, used text mode for lilo and reduced frame buffer resolution [02:25] what's the best bet ? :) [02:26] btw, has anyone seen the segfault with unmounting fs when power off? this happens to me every time I shutdown both on hoary in the laptop and the desktop machine. [02:26] would using offical nvidia packages be problematic in hoary? [02:27] sivang: yes, i get that too [02:27] or rather "egmentation fault" <-- cute ;) [02:27] started happening pretty recently [02:28] eruin : yeah, hehe, on my desktop it somehow shuts down the HD and restart it about 2 times before actually managing to shutdown [02:28] sivang: #4333? [02:28] jdub : checking :) [02:30] looks the same [02:30] I get a message about "none busy" before the segfault, and no "/ is busy" though [02:30] might want to add a comment saying it's happening in ubuntu too [02:31] is it possible to get gnome to always save the configuration when logging out? [02:31] jdub : exactly. [02:31] Mithrandir: gnome-session-properties [02:32] ah, great. [02:32] now I just need to clean up a bit and this will be all happiness [02:32] also, gnome-session-save --gui [02:32] run that from the applications menu [02:32] when you're set up nicely [02:34] jdub: so what all am I breaking with this upgrade, anyway? [02:34] jdub : when choosing "save settings on logout" that also saves sessino settings right? at least it did on sarge.. [02:34] that saves nicely here [02:35] yes it does [02:35] lamont: to hoary? not a huge amount [02:35] lamont: i don't imagine you use evo :) [02:35] what's that? [02:35] :-) [02:35] heh [02:36] evo has become more stable the past couple of days, === lamont runs to a fire call [02:37] however mutt supersedes it alot === mirak [~karim@AAubervilliers-152-1-30-84.w83-114.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel [02:39] right, off to upgrade nvidia.. I might just be back ;) [02:39] ok, the problem was probably the menu mode in lilo [02:41] jdub : btw, just wanted to tell you - hoary is superbo in this machine ever since I remaoved hal , as just disabling the media detection option did not always work. :) it's plain pleasure at 1400x1050 [02:41] sivang: try installing the new version [02:42] jdub : on the latest upgrade? [02:42] yeah [02:42] 0.4.2 [02:42] jfub : k, I'll check, is there comments on the bug fix somwhere? our bugzilla/gnome's ? [02:43] sivang: you removed hal?! [02:43] sivang: see the changelog [02:43] sladen : yes :) But I have already installed 0.4.2 by now :) [02:44] jdub : let's see if this works this time on single IDE busses machines..:) === Mithrandir ponders switching from openbox to metacity, this time making it act properly. [02:46] does metacity do emacs-style chains of shortcuts? [02:47] So C-M-p leftarrow grows to the left, while C-M-p rightarrow grows to the right? === wasabi_ [~wasabi@c-24-1-67-127.client.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Matt| [~Matt|@81-179-237-53.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Nigelenki [~bluefox@pcp485126pcs.whtmrs01.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === eruin [~eruin@eruin.user] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:10] 6111: glxgears~2100.. 6629: glxgears~2600 :D === Nigelenki [~bluefox@pcp485126pcs.whtmrs01.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === srbaker [~srbaker@blk-222-13-66.eastlink.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:29] yo === Nigelenki [~bluefox@pcp485126pcs.whtmrs01.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === srbaker_ [~srbaker@blk-222-13-66.eastlink.ca] has joined #ubuntu-devel === lamont reboots for the maximum hoary-experience === lamont [~lamont@mix.mmjgroup.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [03:56] istr the old metacity actually dropping windows back in the correct workspace... [03:56] or am I misremembering? [03:58] it did [04:03] dimensions: 1792x1344 pixels (361x271 millimeters) at 126 dpi. just plain strange. === lamont bbiab === calc [~ccheney@ip70-185-2-220.ma.dl.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Nigelenki [~bluefox@pcp485126pcs.whtmrs01.md.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:15] anyone know if you need to put in your phone number to shipit? [05:15] some shipping companies require it [05:16] you won't get phone calls from us, that's certain === bluefoxicy didn't put his phone number in, someone else is asking if he has to [05:17] mdz: do you know if shipping to the US requires it? [05:17] bluefoxicy: no, I don't [05:17] will updating the info update previous orders that weren't yet shipped? [05:18] if it's required, I imagine mako would have shipit reject requests which didn't include a phone number [05:18] k [05:18] well it didn't reject me but of course can't track individual order status [05:18] any ideas how long this is gonna take to ship? I ordered yesterday, rough estimate or 'We do 'em in fixed size batches and you're qued"? [05:20] calc: nice blog entry. :) [05:21] :) [05:21] i think i annoyed some kde people reading planetkde ;) [05:21] it was the top headline on there for over 12hr [05:21] can I see? :P [05:21] http://www.cheney.cx/site/blog/ [05:24] heh [05:24] I want to see a desktop environment like MediaPortal [05:25] i.e. it takes over your screen XD [05:25] bluefoxicy: they're done in batches of course, but I'm fairly sure the batches include some padding, so I really can't say [05:25] i just think it'd be neat to have windows docked every which way [05:25] mdz: ok [05:25] my order (queued before the Warty release) arrived this week [05:25] so, month or two? [05:25] I can't say [05:26] i got mine last week also [05:26] when hoary comes out I should talk to my college and show them a warty live cd [05:26] and ask them if they want to hand them out free [05:26] if they say yes I'mma order 1000 :P === GotD0t [~GotD0t@24.48.147.43] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:26] (of hoary) [05:27] I wonder if they'd actually ship them, or if they'd reject the order, or contact me and ask wtf [05:27] heh [05:28] "1000?! DUDE we do this FREE >:(" ". . but my college said they'd hand them out. . . " " o_o oh, nm then" [05:28] of course [05:28] the CDs are very pretty [05:28] so you'd get people thinking it was AOL 10.0 [05:28] and they'd try to install it [05:29] we will ask for confirmation if you request a huge number of CDs [05:29] and call AOL, complaining that AOL erased their hard disks [05:29] some people do it just to see what will happen [05:29] mdz: to prevent against typos and. . yeah, and idiots :P [05:29] dun worry [05:29] I ordered ~20 because I figured it'd be within limits of "Shipping costs more than the CDs so order a lot" [05:29] I'll try to hand them out though [05:30] if they vanish I'm ordering more next time; if I can get a school or college to hand 'em out I might make a fairly large order [05:30] i asked our lug coordinator to get a batch [05:30] since it still seems to be open [05:30] but I'm not ordering excess I don't think I can get distributed. [05:30] sets in low quantity are about $1-2/ea hopefully they are getting discount [05:31] calc: hopefully they can get tax breaks for it [05:31] they have no profit to tax break for do they? ;) [05:31] eh. === bronson_ [~bronson@node-40240852.sjc.onnet.us.uu.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [05:32] I thought canonical was a for-profit organizatoin [05:32] correct [05:32] hmm maybe so, i didn't see anything that would make them money though [05:33] it's explained on the website [05:33] on the front page, even [05:34]