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Treenaksjdub: well, start typing ;)10:21
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jdubintroduction from mark10:24
jdubmark is introducing carlos10:24
jdubWELCOME! :)10:24
jdubgreatful for ubuntu meeting presentation in mataro10:24
ctdHello to jdub!10:24
jdubcommitment to free software from government10:25
jdublaid down one year ago10:25
jdubby three parties in catalonia10:25
jdubfacing a challenge of supporting this commitment10:25
jdubbeginning a process of migration10:25
jdubto be applied throughout catalan government10:25
jdubclear and decisive commitment to rights of users to choose their software10:25
jdubcommitment to catalan language, documentation in language10:26
jdubfree software is a unique opportunity for catalan culture and language10:26
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jdubcatalonia interested in cutting edge technology, distribution and sharing - ubuntu is thus, important10:27
jdub'sharing knowledge in the information society is the same as sharing wealth'10:27
jdubpower is less concentrated10:27
jdubgratitude to canonical for coming to mataro, for open sessions and opportunity for debian users and local developers10:27
jdubthanks to mark shuttleworth for commitment to ubuntu, hispalinux and technocampus10:28
jdubgovernment and university working together to support the conference10:28
jdubi wish you all a happy stay and many thanks10:28
jdubmark: it is as important for us to work with local developers, as it is for local developers to work with a project that is global in scope10:29
jdublook forward to a world where cultures can use technology within their culture10:29
jdubphenomenal week10:29
jdubthe ubuntu team gets together every four months10:29
jdubmuch participation from local developers10:29
jdubthank you to alfonso for working with us10:30
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jdubmark and alfonso will be facilitating discussion about shared code, shared distribution10:30
jdubcollaboration within spain and around the world10:30
jdubtoday we're talking about the platform for that collaboration10:30
jdubsecond version of guadalinex released a couple of months ago10:31
jdubsponsored by andalucia10:31
jdubbased on linex from extremadura10:31
jdubused by 100,000 computers at schools and libraries10:32
jdubcontact with all kinds of users10:32
jdubprovide technical and non-technical support10:32
jdubgood understanding of the needs of normal people10:32
jdubproblems -> needing a human oriented interface and developer issues, debian release, deriving10:33
jduba lot of local governments, making their own distributions (or planning to)10:33
jdubnot enough communicaiton10:33
jdublots of duplication10:34
jdubneed to delegate problem solving10:34
jdubneed a place to work together10:34
jduband a list of needs and problems, who is in charge of them10:34
jduba wishlist for developers and users10:35
jdubtwo extensions to launchpad we are working on10:35
jdubdistributed user support tool10:36
jdubproject management tool10:36
jdubwe use normal mail, database of users, not enough for the problems we have10:36
jdubi am south african, my catalan is terrible, spanish is even worse10:37
jdubjordi mallach to help with catalan translation10:37
jdubjavier explains in spanish10:37
jdubobviously made good jokes10:37
jdubhow many representatives of distributions do we have?10:38
jdubno name embedded distro :)10:39
jdubwe share 95% of code?10:40
jdub(exasperated looks from everyone)10:40
jdublet's gather ideas for challenges we've had10:40
jdubbrainstorm to find ways to solve htem10:40
jdub(javier explains in spanish)10:40
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jdub* bugs10:41
jdub* translations10:41
jdubmany languages supported by spanish distros10:41
jdub* better mechanism for collaborating in marketing, support and self-support10:42
jdubneed to make supporting the distros scale10:43
jdubwith os x and windows, you speak to your friends10:43
jdubhard to find right person to talk to about distributions, software, etc.10:43
jdubmark asked javier to translate suggestion10:44
jdubspeaker translated it himself10:44
jdubmuch laughter :)10:44
jdubmark asks javier if the translation was right10:45
jdubmuch laughter :)10:45
jdubsupport has to scale from derivation to derivation to debian10:45
jdubbuilding a hierarchy of support10:45
jdubfrom local distro to upstream10:45
jdubmark: how would we deal with large changes10:46
jdubwe as developers know what is an ubuntu thing, what is a debian thing, what is an upstream thing10:47
jdubusers don't know10:47
jdubneed to start requests at local distro10:47
=== ajmitch_ starts organising his list of requests :)
jdub"maybe we could write a front-end to all the bug systems?"10:48
jdub(everyone who has seen malone laughs)10:48
jdub(mark suggests the malone team leader writes that)10:48
jdub(for everyone in ubuntu-meeting -> malone is exactly that!)10:49
jdubnormal users don't use bug tracking system10:50
jdubif they do, they put support requests in it10:50
jdubhow do we share bugs like this?10:53
crimsunregarding large changes and denoting the origin of those changes: perhaps that could be done with special tags in the package's Changelog? Since Ubuntu-modified packages normally use a "ubuntu#" suffix, maybe extend cdbs .mks or debhelper to automatically tag ubuntu-local changes? This could be scaled for each distro in the "hierarchy"10:53
jdub(crimsun: we had a bof about this yesterday, that was one of the suggestions)10:54
crimsun(ah, ok)10:54
jdub(crimsun: hopefully have the notes out in the wiki today, because it was *really* interesting)10:54
ajmitch_jdub: quick q, is security on the agenda for this meeting?10:54
jdubajmitch_: not really10:54
jdubajmitch_: this is about collboration between distros10:55
makoajmitch_: it can be.. in so far as it's a problem that people share and that it may be a space of collaboration10:55
ajmitch_I was just wanting to ask about selinux integration10:55
makoajmitch_: the last session is going to be pretty discussion-based and user-specified10:55
ajmitch_as I'm wanting to work on some of that with debian10:55
=== ajmitch_ will wait
jdub* version differences10:55
makoajmitch_: yeah, we're taling about deriviting distributions.. problems and convergence issues10:56
jdubupstream works on head10:56
jdubdistros ship releases10:56
jdubsometimes we want different versions, but we definitely focus on different versions of the software10:56
jdub(translation and discussion in spanish)10:57
jdub* Source code management10:58
jdubchanging the code, patch management, watching upstream and the distro you derive from10:58
jdub* Package selection10:58
jdub* Configuration and branding10:58
jdubdon't need to work on code management if you are just doing configuration and branding changes, but you end up with most of the work!10:59
jdub(#: if you guys want to pipe up, just say stuff :-)11:01
=== ajmitch_ is interested in this as a deb package maintainer
jdubtalking about many branding/configuration changes, across many packages, how do we get a list?11:01
jdububuntu has a list11:02
jdublots of discussion about configuration/branding changes11:04
jdubfederico mena from gnome linked ubuntu list in wiki11:05
jdubgnome is interested in making it easier11:05
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wood1Hello Everybody11:08
jdubwhat desktop does the 'ex' distribution use?11:08
jdub"of course, it is gnome!"11:08
wood1Good to be at this meeting11:08
jdublots of discussion about 'do we want to converge on one solution' or 'should we have different but collaborating systems'11:09
jdublots of agreement that there is good reason to do things differently11:09
jdubbut also to work together11:10
jdubusers want different things11:10
wood1Well I want Ubuntu to support PC Clustering using openMosix11:10
jdubwood1: the meeting is in person, this is an irc simulcast11:10
jdub(wood1: also, you should do some hacking on it!)11:11
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wood1Well can I do that in Ubuntu. I checked out but found that openMosix supports only kernel 2.4.2411:12
wood1Do I get support for kernel in openMosix11:13
jdub(discussion about users getting mad at differences between systems)11:13
jdub(wood1: please take those to #ubuntu, this is a meeting simulcast)11:13
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wood1Ok I understand11:13
wood1Well what do you mean users getting mad at differences between systems ?11:14
jdubdiscussion about users needing things in the same place...11:14
makowood1: frusteration about how things are inconsistent11:14
jdub(more translation)11:14
wood1You mean in Ubuntu ?11:15
jblackwood1: A simulcast is a one way sort of thing. :) 11:15
jdubwood1: please take questions not directed to the meeting to #ubuntu11:15
jdubif there are questions or comments for the meeting, here is fine11:15
jdubbut not general discussion here11:15
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jdubwe'll find success, finding balance between consistency and innovation11:17
jdubnew point, finally :-)11:17
jdub* Human resource management for distributions11:17
jdubhow to find a rallying point11:17
jdubnot wanting to waste people's time11:18
makoi <3 bradb's accent11:18
jdub(brad is canadian)11:18
jdubhrm, skipping back to previous point11:18
jdubwindows standardisation has flattened local talent11:19
jdubmade it *harder* to support11:19
jdubwe have a good list11:19
makoor at least to support locally11:19
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jdub* Standard installer11:20
jdub* Automatic generation of the installer, livecd, etc.11:21
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jdub* Enterprise support11:23
jdubLSC brought up11:24
jdubmandrake, progeny, etc.11:24
jdubstandards vs. same software for certification11:26
jdubnever has been a successful standard via consortium11:27
jduboracle certify to a very particular thing -> platform and version11:27
jdubcertification means not changing anything11:28
jdubalternative to that problem is red hat's way -> innovation platform, enterprise platform11:29
jdubback to installer -> users don't understand partitioning11:29
KragenSitakerthanks for simulcasting, jdub11:30
jdub"would you trust your mum's computer to ntfsresize?"11:30
jdubguadalinex working on gparted to have a partition magic equivalent11:31
jdubcalled neighbour -> "if you have a problem with your partition, you call your neighbour"11:32
jdub(there is a fair bit of miscellaneous discussion points i'm skipping, mainly concentrating on the big points)11:32
jdub* Distribution creation tools11:34
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jdubdesign proposed for debian-custom yesterday11:35
jdubbut much interest in the tools that canonical is working on11:35
lamont_rjdub: want me to see if I can fix that for you.?11:36
jdub(lamont_r: 'sok for now)11:36
jdub(#: my power cable fell out)11:36
lamont_rdunno if there are any short extension cords...11:36
jdubwe don't want to lose changes people want to make to packages and configuration11:37
jdubtime for a summary...11:38
jdubderivation was a key part of the plan for what we wanted to create with ubuntu11:38
jdubwe need to scale the bug reporting infrastructure across distros and upstream11:39
jdubupstream won't be able to handle AOL users :-)11:39
jdubdistros see bugs differently11:40
jdubsome are grave for debian, but irrelevant for guadalinex, etc.11:40
jdubnot a lot of work done among the spanish distributions about bug tracking problems11:41
jdub(discussion about how they're handling bugs)11:43
jdubthis is why ubuntu has six month releases11:43
jdubgives the open source community a platform to build on11:43
jdubknown delivery points, etc.11:44
jdubnot just bugs from users of our distros11:44
jdubbugs also come in from upstream11:44
jdubwe are at the front line, fixing these problems11:44
makojosh says that one thing that might work well is an RSS feed that exports the list of bugs and where they belong to allow people to work with each other11:45
makoguadalinux has a good model that we can learn from11:46
makothey have people without a lot of technical skills that can work with other more skilled people to help report and filter bugs11:46
makothis filtered list of bugs will be usful to share11:46
makomdz says that bugs and support can often be collasped in many distribution but they are really not the same  ething11:47
makoclosing bugs for users that have submitted requests11:48
makoconfusing bugs and support requests takes up a lot of time11:49
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jdubhard to go looking for fixes in other distros11:49
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makonow there is a demo of a canonical tool called malone which is a bug tracking system with some inter-package and inter distro and intro-version stuff11:53
jdub(#: malone is AMAZING)11:53
jdubthere's links between bug tracking systems like debbugs and bugzilla11:54
jdubyou can see bugs per package, product, version11:54
makointer-* bug tracking11:54
jdubnot really designed for end users11:55
jdubthis is the bug tracker11:55
jdubthere should be something else for collaborative technical support11:55
jdubthis is being worked on atm, but not ready for demonstration11:56
jdubalso done work on a similar tool for translations11:56
jdubwhich is the main topic for the next discussion after the break11:57
jdubit is called rosetta11:57
jdubthe idea behind rosetta is to help people from local communities to do translations on the web11:57
Simiraand we like it :)11:57
jdubit detects where you are from (geoip)11:57
jduband what languages are configured in your browser11:57
jduband displays the languages that are of interest to you11:58
jdubwe hope upstreams are very interested in this tool11:58
jdubvery good for application translation11:58
jdubnot great for documentation translation - that's different problem11:58
jdubwant to work out how best to collaborate on documentation, man pages, etc.11:59
jdubmuch discussion to be had in the next session :-)11:59
jdub(some discussion about training)12:00
jdub(after talking about the support problem vs. bugs)12:00
jdubwe are having a break now12:01
jdubi will be back soon :)12:02
ajmitch_good work, jdub  :)12:02
makojdub: yes, thanks12:05
ajmitch_fingers tired yet?12:05
ajmitch_jdub: during the break.. suggestions on how to go about getting selinux work done in ubuntu? email proposals to ubuntu dev list?12:06
ajmitch_since it'd require some patched packages12:07
=== ajmitch_ is wanting to work on it, rather than just ask others to
jdubajmitch_: yeah12:09
jdubajmitch_: i think ultimately it would be better to work on the really core stuff in a derivation12:09
jdubajmitch_: but selinux patches for other stuff is fine -> gdm already supports it, etc.12:09
ajmitch_yeah, debian will hopefully support it after sarge12:10
ajmitch_as it will require libselinux1 going into base12:10
ajmitch_most of the package maintainers are happy with the patches12:10
ajmitch_I'll look into howto derive from ubuntu :)12:11
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ajmitch_aha, that was easy to find12:22
jdubwe're starting the next session12:32
jdubjordi mallach and steve alexander talking about rosetta12:32
jdubwe're doing the translation in two or three languages12:32
ajmitch_great, jordi :)12:32
jdubthere will be a translation demo12:32
jdubbut first, some discussion about the problems with translation12:33
jdubin open source12:33
jdubthere are slides12:33
jdubjordi is speaking in catalan12:33
jdub(#: jordi is a member of the catalan independence army)12:33
jdub(#: i am joking, of course)12:34
jdubsoftware is usually written in english, but we want to use it in the language we speak12:34
jduband write :)12:34
=== Simira prefer not
jdubpeople who could do translations have a very hard time helping, the tools are not good for them12:35
jdubyou have to understand complex tools12:35
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jdubpot, po, cvs, svn, gettext12:35
jdubsteve's father speaks/writes chinese12:36
jdubwould love to help12:36
jdubbut can't, because the tools are too difficult for him12:36
jdubthe culture and language of programmers is not always friendly in a way that outsiders understand12:36
jdubyou almost have to become a programmer to understand the tools12:36
jdub(#: jordi's catalan description takes much longer than steve's english description...)12:37
jdubthere are barriers to actually get your translation into the software12:37
jdubboth technical and social12:37
jdubyou have to co-ordinate with releases12:38
jdubwhich can be hard between the developer and the translator12:38
jdubit is also hard for software authors, because they have to co-ordinate the many people who want to translate the software12:38
jdubwhen users see something wrong, how do they know who to speak to to fix it?12:38
jdubso, rosetta!12:39
jdubcanonical has sponsored rosetta12:39
jdubit helps translators create translations and makes it easy for them12:39
jdubit is a web interface12:39
jdubit provides a global view on the state of translation12:39
jdubmany projects, all languages12:39
jdubshows what is translated and what needs translating12:40
jdubwe hope rosetta will bring authors, translators and user together, better than they are now12:40
jdubjordi is going to demonstrate rosetta by translating a small application12:40
jdubjordi is making the font in his web browser bigger12:41
ajmitch_live demos are always tricky 12:41
jdubwe are switching computers for the demo...12:43
jdubthere is a back up computer ;-)12:43
jdubjordi's machine is falling to pieces12:43
jdubdonations welcome12:43
=== jdub fills time by making jokes
jdubdum de dum12:43
jdubjordi is searching for a program12:44
jdubhe searches for 'hello', finds gnome-hello12:45
jdubhe is setting up gnome-hello for catalan translation12:45
jdubsomehow he managed to switch into japanese input mode...12:46
jdubdemo fun :-)12:46
jdubhe registers the po template12:46
jdubgnome-hello is not translated at all into spanish or catalan12:47
jdubrosetta picks up languages from:12:47
jdub- geoip -> the location of the user12:47
jdub- the languages set up in the browser12:47
jdub- the user's configuration in rosetta itself12:47
jdubit is very clever :-)12:47
jdubjordi is now translating gnome-hello to catalan12:48
jdubthere's a list of strings12:48
jdubjordi is looking for the right accents... :-)12:49
jdub... translating strings ...12:49
jdub... translating strings ...12:49
jdub... translating strings ...12:49
jdubrosetta provides file context help12:49
jdub(#: if you guys have questions for jordi and steve, just ask, but i think they prefer questions at the end)12:50
jdub(#: but it is quiet while jordi is translating)12:51
kokeanybody else is ahving problems with the wireless connection here?12:51
jdub(#: preferably related to rosetta...)12:52
jdubjordi has translated 30% of gnome-hello12:52
jdubnow he is downloading the finished po file12:52
jdubthe translations can be exported easily12:52
jdubthis is useful for developers to commit the translations12:52
jdubor for translators to see the software running with the translation12:53
jdubdaf is demonstrating the translation12:53
jdubcopying the po file over12:54
jduband running gnome-hello with LANG=ca_ES.UTF-812:54
jdubdaf displays the po file that was exported12:56
jdub(setting up more of the demo)12:57
jdublots of work to be done on the web interface12:59
jdubmaking it easier for translators12:59
jdubfrom next week, you'll be able to use rosetta01:00
jdubquestion about translation memory01:00
jdubthe infrastructure is there for it, but it has not been implemented yet01:01
jdubtwo ways to get strings into the system for translation:01:02
jdub- uploading original pot files -> this is good for small projects01:02
jdub- we can sync them directly from the upstream revision control with some of the other tools we're working on01:02
jdubthat means they'll always be up to date01:02
jdubquestions from the crowd01:03
jdub* do comments in the po file show up in the web interface?01:03
jdubyes, this is supported01:03
jdub* can you see how other languages have translated the strings, during translation?01:04
jdubhaven't done that yet, there are some ui issues to solve to make it very nice01:04
jdub* does it preserve format string components and check if they've been removed by mistake?01:05
jdubthat's a great idea01:05
jdubwe should do that01:05
jdub(the latter, that is -> it preserves format strings already..)01:05
jdub* with translation memory, different projects use different terms - will rosetta have global and per-project glossaries?01:06
jdubwe had a request for this, very much related to translation memory features01:07
jdub* what about project management integration, for translation review and so on?01:07
jdubgreat idea, we should do that01:07
jdubit would be great to have a hierarchy of skilled translators01:09
jduba review tree01:09
jdubthese kinds of things will come up a lot as people use it01:09
jdubwe will be very open to suggestions01:09
jdub* will it be open source?01:12
jdubwe want to at some stage01:12
jdubit is very integrated into launchpad01:12
jdubwhich is pretty centralised, with integration into revision control and all the other tools01:13
jdubso there are benefits to having one central system01:13
jdubvery convenient for upstreams to have one place to go01:14
jdub(#: you guys can ask questions here, you don't have to /msg me :)01:14
jdub* does it support formats other than po?01:15
jdubnot yet, but it will later on01:15
ctdQuestion: Are your hands getting tired yet?01:15
jdubtms, xliff, etc.01:15
jdub(heh, sort of)01:15
jdub* can translators use tools on their own computer?01:16
jdubyes, they can use emacs and so on, but still collaborate within rosetta01:16
jdubso you can upload and download po files01:16
jdubin the future, there will be an xml-rpc protocol and pygtk application for translation01:16
jdubplus you can use the revision control system as well01:16
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ctdIs it just me who sees people join multiple times?01:18
ctdSince it's only been this channel. 01:18
jdub* can we make it as easy to see the translated application as pressing a button?01:18
jdubwow! great idea!01:18
kokectd, it's a matrix failure ;)01:18
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jdub* can anyone put new projects in rosetta? even non-free?01:19
jdubno one's asked that before :-)01:19
jdubwe have lots to discuss about ownership of translations, copyright, translation memory, etc.01:20
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jdub* what about spell checking? :)01:21
jdubgreat idea01:22
jdub* which new formats are planned?01:24
jdubwe'd like to do manpages01:24
jdubconverters from openoffice and mozilla formats to po01:25
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jdub(discussion about who would like to try it and use it, etc)01:26
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jdubthere is a mailing list01:26
Treenakswhy are the list archives private?01:28
Simirathat's new to me. Tell them to put a link to it from the Rosetta web01:28
jdubTreenaks: it was a beta list for a while01:28
jdubi will ask about it01:28
jdubokay, i will fix that up :)01:29
jdubhaving a break01:35
jdubbetween sessions01:35
Treenakslunch break? :)01:35
jdubwill come back soon :-)01:35
jdubTHIS ROCKS!01:35
jdubTreenaks: nah, just a short break01:35
Tsjoklatjdub follows the rules behind the logitech keyboard01:36
TreenaksTsjoklat: "According to some experts, the use of any keyboard can induce injury"01:37
TsjoklatTreenaks ja :) and one should take regular breaks01:38
jdubNEXT SESSION!01:41
jdubmako and ismael olea01:41
jdubtalking about collaboration and convergence01:42
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jdubthere are so many distros in spain01:42
jdubderived from debian01:42
jdubin so many regions01:42
jdubthere is not enough communication and collaboration01:43
jdubhow can we fix that?01:43
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jdubthere are technical and non-technical/political problems01:43
jdub(ismael is translating)01:43
jdubat the end we can talk about solutions01:44
jdubideas we might have to make collaboration work01:44
jdubpolitical problems01:45
jdub* respect for standards and making standards01:46
jdub* secrecy!01:46
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jdub* general communication01:47
jdub* "not invented here", wanting to be different01:47
jdub* geographical location, hard to meet up01:48
jduband timezones01:48
Q-FUNK"not made here" - sounds like Debian all over again.01:48
jdub* cultural differences, inability to work around01:49
jdub* different deadlines and priorities, technical or not01:50
KamionQ-FUNK: I don't think we were describing our own position there.01:50
KamionQ-FUNK: the comment was in the context of the many distributions in Spain.01:50
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jdub(#: comments for the meeting here, discussion elsewhere please :)|01:51
jdub* different audiences01:51
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jdub* resources, difference and sharing01:53
jdub== Technical Barriers to Convergence ==01:54
jdublist from first session is a good starting point for this01:54
jdub* compatibility -> infrastructure, applications, etc.01:55
jdub* language and communication with developers01:56
jdub* duplication of work, lack of visibility01:57
jdubpeople working on same packages in different distros01:58
jdubhorizontal (regional) distros vs. vertical (thematic) distros01:58
jdub* configuration -> 'flavours' (same stuff, different configuration)01:59
jdub* different security policies01:59
jdub* hardware platforms02:00
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jdub* no common place to share needs, issues, etc. even between local government distros in spain02:02
jdub* branding02:03
jdub* delivery methods02:03
jdub(we should have an ubuntu punched cards project)02:04
jdubdvds, cds, network install, etc.02:04
jdub* binary compatibility, releases, common base, etc.02:04
jdub* thin clients02:05
jdub* old computers (for use with thin clients, or special software needs)02:07
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jdub* managing large installations02:09
jdub* live cds, different installers, etc.02:10
jdub* giving back (higher distro or upstream software) or sharing (similar distros)02:12
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jdub* support live cycle and releases of the distros02:16
jdub- software selection02:17
jdub- configuration02:17
jdub- code changes02:17
jdub- installation02:17
jdub* it's crazy to assume that we can all use the same thing, whether it's debian, ubuntu, red hat, suse, whatever02:19
jdubso we have to manage the differences02:19
jdubsharing the infrastructure for managing those differences makes sense02:19
jordi(woah, and I thought Jeff was sitting in the corner doing his stuff...)02:19
jdubCDD proposal -> common way of specifying what you want from your custom distribution02:20
jdubcommon way to select packages02:20
jdubcommon way to configure packages02:20
jdubsharing repository, and sharing branches@02:21
jdubtwo models for custom distributions being pushed...02:21
jdublow priority debconf questions -> adding the ability to configure the package, and not changing the defaults02:21
jdubpre-seeding different answers for configuration differences between distros02:21
jdubsuggestion to work upstream in debian instead of making new repositories02:24
jdubbranding-only packages in different repository02:25
jdubdebian == big repository in the sky02:25
Q-FUNKI would simply package pre-seeding files with Ubuntu defaults, but otherwise use standard Debian.02:26
Q-FUNK... + ubuntu-specific file in their own small repository.02:27
jdubproblem is release timing differences, teamwork problems,02:27
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Q-FUNKanother alternative would be to release only core Ubuntu supported packages, then pin those with a higher priority than Debian.02:30
jdub(difficult to summarise comments, if anyone wants to summarise, please say)02:30
jdubQ-FUNK: discussion elsewhere please02:30
Q-FUNKfor any other packages, instead of universe, we'd have regular Debian testing or unstable, pinned at lower priority.02:30
jordijdub: I could try to help02:30
jdubone big repository vs. multiple repositories02:31
Q-FUNKjdub: where do I feed ideas BACK to the meeting since I'm not there to voice my opiion then?02:31
jdubreferring to discussion earlier about this - having to manage the differences in priorities and deadlines02:31
jdubQ-FUNK: here, those issues have been raised02:32
jdubbefore starting ubuntu, researched how revision control could help solve this problem02:33
jdubbest solution was arch, now we're working on matching bitkeeper with bazaar02:33
jdubmatching and exceeding :)02:33
jdubstarting with arch instead of starting from nothing02:33
jdubunderstanding relationships between different distro versions02:34
jdubVERY hard problem02:34
jdubright now we don't have a solution to deliver02:34
jdubbut we're working very hard on these tools02:34
jdubhundreds of thousands of lines of changes in debian/ubuntu's X02:34
jdubwe're not just looking at the differences02:34
jdubwe're looking at the differences between differences :)02:35
jdubnot only between debian distros02:35
jdubbut all distros02:35
jdub(#: we're not really talking about very specific technical solutions here, more the broad brush strokes of solutions)02:36
jdubdiscussion of partnership between common distros02:36
Q-FUNKjdub: is that aprtnership actually going to ahppen, according to Mark & all?02:37
jdubit is a suggestion during brainstorming discussion02:37
jdubcan spanish distros use same cd, different choices for region02:38
jdubrequires political coordination02:38
jordiwhich is _very_ difficult02:38
jdub(#: mako keeps tripping over the eazel)02:38
Q-FUNKjordi: maybe not here, but could you explain what makes it so politically difficult to coordinate and collaborate in Spain?02:39
jdubthe open source community as a whole can act as that 'central' arbitrator02:39
jdubit will grow to solve those problems02:40
jdubtechnical solution of single cd is relatively simple, but the political issues are the hard part there02:40
jdub(lots of reference to political differences in spain, which jordi can explain as he is a member of the catalunya independence army)02:41
jdubwe can create models to allow for horizontal and vertical collaboration02:41
jdubcoordinating releases and security and so on02:42
jdublots of discussion about common release base and different versions on top per priority02:45
jdububuntu/kubuntu release cycles vs. single repository02:45
jdub(gnome and kde release cycle differences)02:45
jdubsecurity in ubuntu02:45
jdubmalone will help enormously for our security efforts in multiple releases02:46
jdubwe hope it will be useful for all distros to share information02:46
jdubwe collaborate with debian for security patches and so on02:46
jdubpublic mailing list 'security-review' for collaboration02:46
jdubwe are focusing on code a lot, but even small changes like icons are code-like changes02:51
jdubbut we are probably focusing on the micro problems, not the macro problems02:52
jdubhow about the live cd model? same base system, different packages on top02:53
jdubcommon base system proposal again02:54
jdubhow many DDs or NMs? lots of hands :)02:56
jdub(phew, sorry, i was talking a bit)03:01
jdubtalking about debian as an engine room for front-end distros03:02
jdublike the way gnome sees itself03:02
jdubcultural change to see derivatives as partners, not competition03:02
jdubdiscussion about derivative collaboration is similar to business collaboration03:04
jdubending point03:04
jdubwrapping up stuff03:04
jdub- this is a fascinating challenge to produce an absolutely free distribution03:05
jdub- there will never be a requirement to put 'ubuntu' in a derived distribution03:05
jdub- if we're going to do it, we can share the difficult challenges with translations, bugs, etc.03:05
jdub- too long we've focused on centralisation, one organisation, etc.03:06
jdub- we don't have all the solutions, but this is a great list03:06
jdubthank you very much03:07
jdubtime for lunch :-)03:07
jdubapplause, sighs of relief, etc.03:07
jdubthat's all03:07
jdubthat's all from me :-)03:08
Q-FUNKthanks for the summary.03:09
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kokehey, there's no broadcast of the lunch?? ;P04:01
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kokehi all!08:30
kokeis there any dinner/party planned for tonight??08:31
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