[10:21] <jdub> hola!
[10:21] <Treenaks> jdub: well, start typing ;)
[10:21] <ajmitch_> morning
[10:22] <crimsun> moin
[10:24] <jdub> introduction from mark
[10:24] <jdub> mark is introducing carlos
[10:24] <jdub> WELCOME! :)
[10:24] <jdub> greatful for ubuntu meeting presentation in mataro
[10:24] <ctd> Hello to jdub!
[10:25] <jdub> commitment to free software from government
[10:25] <jdub> laid down one year ago
[10:25] <jdub> by three parties in catalonia
[10:25] <jdub> facing a challenge of supporting this commitment
[10:25] <jdub> beginning a process of migration
[10:25] <jdub> to be applied throughout catalan government
[10:25] <jdub> clear and decisive commitment to rights of users to choose their software
[10:26] <jdub> commitment to catalan language, documentation in language
[10:26] <jdub> free software is a unique opportunity for catalan culture and language
[10:27] <jdub> catalonia interested in cutting edge technology, distribution and sharing - ubuntu is thus, important
[10:27] <jdub> 'sharing knowledge in the information society is the same as sharing wealth'
[10:27] <jdub> power is less concentrated
[10:27] <jdub> gratitude to canonical for coming to mataro, for open sessions and opportunity for debian users and local developers
[10:28] <jdub> thanks to mark shuttleworth for commitment to ubuntu, hispalinux and technocampus
[10:28] <jdub> government and university working together to support the conference
[10:28] <jdub> i wish you all a happy stay and many thanks
[10:28] <jdub> (applause)
[10:29] <jdub> mark: it is as important for us to work with local developers, as it is for local developers to work with a project that is global in scope
[10:29] <jdub> look forward to a world where cultures can use technology within their culture
[10:29] <jdub> phenomenal week
[10:29] <jdub> the ubuntu team gets together every four months
[10:29] <jdub> much participation from local developers
[10:30] <jdub> thank you to alfonso for working with us
[10:30] <jdub> mark and alfonso will be facilitating discussion about shared code, shared distribution
[10:30] <jdub> collaboration within spain and around the world
[10:30] <jdub> today we're talking about the platform for that collaboration
[10:30] <jdub> alfonso:
[10:31] <jdub> second version of guadalinex released a couple of months ago
[10:31] <jdub> sponsored by andalucia
[10:31] <jdub> based on linex from extremadura
[10:32] <jdub> used by 100,000 computers at schools and libraries
[10:32] <jdub> contact with all kinds of users
[10:32] <jdub> provide technical and non-technical support
[10:32] <jdub> good understanding of the needs of normal people
[10:33] <jdub> problems -> needing a human oriented interface and developer issues, debian release, deriving
[10:33] <jdub> a lot of local governments, making their own distributions (or planning to)
[10:33] <jdub> not enough communicaiton
[10:34] <jdub> lots of duplication
[10:34] <jdub> need to delegate problem solving
[10:34] <jdub> need a place to work together
[10:34] <jdub> and a list of needs and problems, who is in charge of them
[10:35] <jdub> a wishlist for developers and users
[10:35] <jdub> mark:
[10:35] <jdub> two extensions to launchpad we are working on
[10:36] <jdub> distributed user support tool
[10:36] <jdub> project management tool
[10:36] <jdub> alfonso:
[10:36] <jdub> we use normal mail, database of users, not enough for the problems we have
[10:37] <jdub> mark:
[10:37] <jdub> i am south african, my catalan is terrible, spanish is even worse
[10:37] <jdub> jordi mallach to help with catalan translation
[10:37] <jdub> javier explains in spanish
[10:37] <jdub> obviously made good jokes
[10:37] <jdub> :-)
[10:38] <jdub> how many representatives of distributions do we have?
[10:38] <jdub> debian
[10:38] <jdub> ubuntu
[10:38] <jdub> guadalinex
[10:38] <jdub> lurix
[10:38] <jdub> catix
[10:38] <jdub> metadistros
[10:39] <jdub> lux
[10:39] <jdub> no name embedded distro :)
[10:40] <jdub> we share 95% of code?
[10:40] <jdub> (exasperated looks from everyone)
[10:40] <jdub> let's gather ideas for challenges we've had
[10:40] <jdub> brainstorm to find ways to solve htem
[10:40] <jdub> (javier explains in spanish)
[10:41] <jdub> * bugs
[10:41] <jdub> * translations
[10:41] <jdub> many languages supported by spanish distros
[10:42] <jdub> * better mechanism for collaborating in marketing, support and self-support
[10:43] <jdub> need to make supporting the distros scale
[10:43] <jdub> with os x and windows, you speak to your friends
[10:43] <jdub> hard to find right person to talk to about distributions, software, etc.
[10:44] <jdub> mark asked javier to translate suggestion
[10:44] <jdub> speaker translated it himself
[10:44] <jdub> much laughter :)
[10:45] <jdub> mark asks javier if the translation was right
[10:45] <jdub> much laughter :)
[10:45] <jdub> support has to scale from derivation to derivation to debian
[10:45] <jdub> building a hierarchy of support
[10:45] <jdub> from local distro to upstream
[10:46] <jdub> mark: how would we deal with large changes
[10:47] <jdub> we as developers know what is an ubuntu thing, what is a debian thing, what is an upstream thing
[10:47] <jdub> users don't know
[10:47] <jdub> need to start requests at local distro
[10:48] <jdub> "maybe we could write a front-end to all the bug systems?"
[10:48] <jdub> (everyone who has seen malone laughs)
[10:48] <jdub> (mark suggests the malone team leader writes that)
[10:49] <jdub> (for everyone in ubuntu-meeting -> malone is exactly that!)
[10:50] <jdub> normal users don't use bug tracking system
[10:50] <jdub> if they do, they put support requests in it
[10:53] <jdub> how do we share bugs like this?
[10:53] <crimsun> regarding large changes and denoting the origin of those changes: perhaps that could be done with special tags in the package's Changelog? Since Ubuntu-modified packages normally use a "ubuntu#" suffix, maybe extend cdbs .mks or debhelper to automatically tag ubuntu-local changes? This could be scaled for each distro in the "hierarchy"
[10:54] <jdub> (crimsun: we had a bof about this yesterday, that was one of the suggestions)
[10:54] <crimsun> (ah, ok)
[10:54] <jdub> (crimsun: hopefully have the notes out in the wiki today, because it was *really* interesting)
[10:54] <ajmitch_> jdub: quick q, is security on the agenda for this meeting?
[10:54] <jdub> ajmitch_: not really
[10:55] <jdub> ajmitch_: this is about collboration between distros
[10:55] <mako> ajmitch_: it can be.. in so far as it's a problem that people share and that it may be a space of collaboration
[10:55] <ajmitch_> ok
[10:55] <ajmitch_> I was just wanting to ask about selinux integration
[10:55] <mako> ajmitch_: the last session is going to be pretty discussion-based and user-specified
[10:55] <ajmitch_> as I'm wanting to work on some of that with debian
[10:55] <jdub> * version differences
[10:56] <mako> ajmitch_: yeah, we're taling about deriviting distributions.. problems and convergence issues
[10:56] <jdub> upstream works on head
[10:56] <jdub> distros ship releases
[10:56] <jdub> sometimes we want different versions, but we definitely focus on different versions of the software
[10:57] <jdub> (translation and discussion in spanish)
[10:58] <jdub> * Source code management
[10:58] <jdub> changing the code, patch management, watching upstream and the distro you derive from
[10:58] <jdub> * Package selection
[10:58] <jdub> * Configuration and branding
[10:59] <jdub> don't need to work on code management if you are just doing configuration and branding changes, but you end up with most of the work!
[11:01] <jdub> (#: if you guys want to pipe up, just say stuff :-)
[11:01] <ajmitch_> :)
[11:01] <jdub> talking about many branding/configuration changes, across many packages, how do we get a list?
[11:02] <jdub> ubuntu has a list
[11:04] <jdub> lots of discussion about configuration/branding changes
[11:05] <jdub> federico mena from gnome linked ubuntu list in wiki
[11:05] <jdub> gnome is interested in making it easier
[11:08] <wood1> Hello Everybody
[11:08] <jdub> what desktop does the 'ex' distribution use?
[11:08] <jdub> "of course, it is gnome!"
[11:08] <wood1> Good to be at this meeting
[11:09] <jdub> lots of discussion about 'do we want to converge on one solution' or 'should we have different but collaborating systems'
[11:09] <jdub> lots of agreement that there is good reason to do things differently
[11:10] <jdub> but also to work together
[11:10] <jdub> users want different things
[11:10] <wood1> Well I want Ubuntu to support PC Clustering using openMosix
[11:10] <jdub> wood1: the meeting is in person, this is an irc simulcast
[11:11] <jdub> (wood1: also, you should do some hacking on it!)
[11:12] <wood1> Well can I do that in Ubuntu. I checked out but found that openMosix supports only kernel 2.4.24
[11:13] <wood1> Do I get support for kernel 2.6.8.1-3 in openMosix
[11:13] <jdub> (discussion about users getting mad at differences between systems)
[11:13] <jdub> (wood1: please take those to #ubuntu, this is a meeting simulcast)
[11:13] <wood1> Ok I understand
[11:14] <wood1> Well what do you mean users getting mad at differences between systems ?
[11:14] <jdub> discussion about users needing things in the same place...
[11:14] <mako> wood1: frusteration about how things are inconsistent
[11:14] <jdub> (more translation)
[11:15] <wood1> You mean in Ubuntu ?
[11:15] <jblack> wood1: A simulcast is a one way sort of thing. :) 
[11:15] <jdub> wood1: please take questions not directed to the meeting to #ubuntu
[11:15] <jdub> if there are questions or comments for the meeting, here is fine
[11:15] <jdub> but not general discussion here
[11:17] <jdub> we'll find success, finding balance between consistency and innovation
[11:17] <jdub> new point, finally :-)
[11:17] <jdub> * Human resource management for distributions
[11:17] <jdub> how to find a rallying point
[11:18] <jdub> not wanting to waste people's time
[11:18] <mako> i <3 bradb's accent
[11:18] <jdub> (brad is canadian)
[11:18] <jdub> hrm, skipping back to previous point
[11:19] <jdub> windows standardisation has flattened local talent
[11:19] <jdub> made it *harder* to support
[11:19] <jdub> ...
[11:19] <jdub> we have a good list
[11:19] <mako> or at least to support locally
[11:19] <jdub> (translation)
[11:20] <jdub> * Standard installer
[11:21] <jdub> * Automatic generation of the installer, livecd, etc.
[11:23] <jdub> * Enterprise support
[11:24] <jdub> LSC brought up
[11:24] <jdub> mandrake, progeny, etc.
[11:25] <jdub> (LCC)
[11:26] <jdub> standards vs. same software for certification
[11:27] <jdub> never has been a successful standard via consortium
[11:27] <jdub> oracle certify to a very particular thing -> platform and version
[11:28] <jdub> certification means not changing anything
[11:29] <jdub> alternative to that problem is red hat's way -> innovation platform, enterprise platform
[11:29] <jdub> back to installer -> users don't understand partitioning
[11:30] <KragenSitaker> thanks for simulcasting, jdub
[11:30] <jdub> "would you trust your mum's computer to ntfsresize?"
[11:30] <koke> no
[11:31] <jdub> guadalinex working on gparted to have a partition magic equivalent
[11:32] <jdub> called neighbour -> "if you have a problem with your partition, you call your neighbour"
[11:32] <jdub> (translation)
[11:32] <jdub> (there is a fair bit of miscellaneous discussion points i'm skipping, mainly concentrating on the big points)
[11:34] <jdub> * Distribution creation tools
[11:35] <jdub> design proposed for debian-custom yesterday
[11:35] <jdub> but much interest in the tools that canonical is working on
[11:36] <lamont_r> jdub: want me to see if I can fix that for you.?
[11:36] <jdub> (lamont_r: 'sok for now)
[11:36] <jdub> (#: my power cable fell out)
[11:36] <lamont_r> dunno if there are any short extension cords...
[11:37] <jdub> we don't want to lose changes people want to make to packages and configuration
[11:38] <jdub> time for a summary...
[11:38] <jdub> derivation was a key part of the plan for what we wanted to create with ubuntu
[11:39] <jdub> we need to scale the bug reporting infrastructure across distros and upstream
[11:39] <jdub> upstream won't be able to handle AOL users :-)
[11:40] <jdub> distros see bugs differently
[11:40] <jdub> some are grave for debian, but irrelevant for guadalinex, etc.
[11:41] <jdub> not a lot of work done among the spanish distributions about bug tracking problems
[11:43] <jdub> (discussion about how they're handling bugs)
[11:43] <jdub> this is why ubuntu has six month releases
[11:43] <jdub> gives the open source community a platform to build on
[11:44] <jdub> known delivery points, etc.
[11:44] <jdub> not just bugs from users of our distros
[11:44] <jdub> bugs also come in from upstream
[11:44] <jdub> we are at the front line, fixing these problems
[11:45] <mako> josh says that one thing that might work well is an RSS feed that exports the list of bugs and where they belong to allow people to work with each other
[11:46] <mako> guadalinux has a good model that we can learn from
[11:46] <mako> they have people without a lot of technical skills that can work with other more skilled people to help report and filter bugs
[11:46] <mako> this filtered list of bugs will be usful to share
[11:47] <mako> mdz says that bugs and support can often be collasped in many distribution but they are really not the same  ething
[11:48] <mako> closing bugs for users that have submitted requests
[11:49] <mako> confusing bugs and support requests takes up a lot of time
[11:49] <jdub> hard to go looking for fixes in other distros
[11:53] <mako> now there is a demo of a canonical tool called malone which is a bug tracking system with some inter-package and inter distro and intro-version stuff
[11:53] <jdub> (#: malone is AMAZING)
[11:54] <jdub> there's links between bug tracking systems like debbugs and bugzilla
[11:54] <jdub> you can see bugs per package, product, version
[11:54] <mako> inter-* bug tracking
[11:54] <mako> OMG
[11:54] <jdub> ;-)
[11:55] <jdub> not really designed for end users
[11:55] <jdub> this is the bug tracker
[11:55] <jdub> there should be something else for collaborative technical support
[11:56] <Q-FUNK> ouch
[11:56] <jdub> this is being worked on atm, but not ready for demonstration
[11:56] <jdub> also done work on a similar tool for translations
[11:57] <jdub> which is the main topic for the next discussion after the break
[11:57] <jdub> it is called rosetta
[11:57] <jdub> the idea behind rosetta is to help people from local communities to do translations on the web
[11:57] <Simira> and we like it :)
[11:57] <jdub> it detects where you are from (geoip)
[11:57] <jdub> and what languages are configured in your browser
[11:58] <jdub> and displays the languages that are of interest to you
[11:58] <jdub> we hope upstreams are very interested in this tool
[11:58] <jdub> very good for application translation
[11:58] <jdub> not great for documentation translation - that's different problem
[11:59] <jdub> want to work out how best to collaborate on documentation, man pages, etc.
[11:59] <jdub> much discussion to be had in the next session :-)
[12:00] <jdub> (some discussion about training)
[12:00] <jdub> (after talking about the support problem vs. bugs)
[12:01] <jdub> okay
[12:01] <jdub> we are having a break now
[12:02] <jdub> i will be back soon :)
[12:02] <ajmitch_> good work, jdub  :)
[12:05] <mako> jdub: yes, thanks
[12:05] <jdub> (phew!)
[12:05] <ajmitch_> fingers tired yet?
[12:05] <jdub> yeah
[12:06] <ajmitch_> jdub: during the break.. suggestions on how to go about getting selinux work done in ubuntu? email proposals to ubuntu dev list?
[12:07] <ajmitch_> since it'd require some patched packages
[12:09] <jdub> ajmitch_: yeah
[12:09] <jdub> ajmitch_: i think ultimately it would be better to work on the really core stuff in a derivation
[12:09] <jdub> ajmitch_: but selinux patches for other stuff is fine -> gdm already supports it, etc.
[12:10] <ajmitch_> yeah, debian will hopefully support it after sarge
[12:10] <ajmitch_> as it will require libselinux1 going into base
[12:10] <ajmitch_> most of the package maintainers are happy with the patches
[12:11] <ajmitch_> I'll look into howto derive from ubuntu :)
[12:22] <ajmitch_> aha, that was easy to find
[12:32] <jdub> okay
[12:32] <jdub> we're starting the next session
[12:32] <jdub> jordi mallach and steve alexander talking about rosetta
[12:32] <jdub> we're doing the translation in two or three languages
[12:32] <ajmitch_> great, jordi :)
[12:32] <jdub> there will be a translation demo
[12:33] <jdub> but first, some discussion about the problems with translation
[12:33] <jdub> in open source
[12:33] <jdub> there are slides
[12:33] <jdub> jordi is speaking in catalan
[12:33] <jdub> (#: jordi is a member of the catalan independence army)
[12:34] <Simira> :D
[12:34] <jdub> (#: i am joking, of course)
[12:34] <jdub> software is usually written in english, but we want to use it in the language we speak
[12:34] <jdub> and write :)
[12:35] <jdub> people who could do translations have a very hard time helping, the tools are not good for them
[12:35] <jdub> you have to understand complex tools
[12:35] <jdub> pot, po, cvs, svn, gettext
[12:36] <jdub> steve's father speaks/writes chinese
[12:36] <jdub> would love to help
[12:36] <jdub> but can't, because the tools are too difficult for him
[12:36] <jdub> the culture and language of programmers is not always friendly in a way that outsiders understand
[12:36] <jdub> you almost have to become a programmer to understand the tools
[12:37] <jdub> (#: jordi's catalan description takes much longer than steve's english description...)
[12:37] <jdub> there are barriers to actually get your translation into the software
[12:37] <jdub> both technical and social
[12:38] <jdub> you have to co-ordinate with releases
[12:38] <jdub> which can be hard between the developer and the translator
[12:38] <jdub> it is also hard for software authors, because they have to co-ordinate the many people who want to translate the software
[12:38] <jdub> when users see something wrong, how do they know who to speak to to fix it?
[12:39] <jdub> so, rosetta!
[12:39] <jdub> canonical has sponsored rosetta
[12:39] <jdub> it helps translators create translations and makes it easy for them
[12:39] <jdub> it is a web interface
[12:39] <jdub> it provides a global view on the state of translation
[12:39] <jdub> many projects, all languages
[12:40] <jdub> shows what is translated and what needs translating
[12:40] <jdub> we hope rosetta will bring authors, translators and user together, better than they are now
[12:40] <jdub> jordi is going to demonstrate rosetta by translating a small application
[12:41] <jdub> jordi is making the font in his web browser bigger
[12:41] <ajmitch_> live demos are always tricky 
[12:43] <jdub> we are switching computers for the demo...
[12:43] <jdub> there is a back up computer ;-)
[12:43] <jdub> jordi's machine is falling to pieces
[12:43] <jdub> donations welcome
[12:43] <jdub> ;-)
[12:43] <jdub> dum de dum
[12:44] <jdub> jordi is searching for a program
[12:45] <jdub> he searches for 'hello', finds gnome-hello
[12:45] <jdub> he is setting up gnome-hello for catalan translation
[12:46] <jdub> somehow he managed to switch into japanese input mode...
[12:46] <jdub> demo fun :-)
[12:46] <jdub> he registers the po template
[12:47] <jdub> gnome-hello is not translated at all into spanish or catalan
[12:47] <jdub> rosetta picks up languages from:
[12:47] <jdub> - geoip -> the location of the user
[12:47] <jdub> - the languages set up in the browser
[12:47] <jdub> - the user's configuration in rosetta itself
[12:47] <jdub> it is very clever :-)
[12:48] <jdub> jordi is now translating gnome-hello to catalan
[12:48] <jdub> there's a list of strings
[12:49] <jdub> jordi is looking for the right accents... :-)
[12:49] <jdub> ... translating strings ...
[12:49] <jdub> ... translating strings ...
[12:49] <jdub> ... translating strings ...
[12:49] <jdub> rosetta provides file context help
[12:50] <jdub> (#: if you guys have questions for jordi and steve, just ask, but i think they prefer questions at the end)
[12:51] <jdub> (#: but it is quiet while jordi is translating)
[12:51] <koke> anybody else is ahving problems with the wireless connection here?
[12:52] <jdub> (#: preferably related to rosetta...)
[12:52] <jdub> jordi has translated 30% of gnome-hello
[12:52] <jdub> now he is downloading the finished po file
[12:52] <jdub> the translations can be exported easily
[12:52] <jdub> this is useful for developers to commit the translations
[12:53] <jdub> or for translators to see the software running with the translation
[12:53] <jdub> daf is demonstrating the translation
[12:54] <jdub> copying the po file over
[12:54] <jdub> and running gnome-hello with LANG=ca_ES.UTF-8
[12:56] <jdub> daf displays the po file that was exported
[12:57] <jdub> (setting up more of the demo)
[12:59] <jdub> lots of work to be done on the web interface
[12:59] <jdub> making it easier for translators
[01:00] <jdub> from next week, you'll be able to use rosetta
[01:00] <jdub> question about translation memory
[01:01] <jdub> the infrastructure is there for it, but it has not been implemented yet
[01:02] <jdub> two ways to get strings into the system for translation:
[01:02] <jdub> - uploading original pot files -> this is good for small projects
[01:02] <jdub> - we can sync them directly from the upstream revision control with some of the other tools we're working on
[01:02] <jdub> that means they'll always be up to date
[01:03] <jdub> questions from the crowd
[01:03] <jdub> * do comments in the po file show up in the web interface?
[01:03] <jdub> yes, this is supported
[01:04] <jdub> * can you see how other languages have translated the strings, during translation?
[01:04] <jdub> haven't done that yet, there are some ui issues to solve to make it very nice
[01:05] <jdub> * does it preserve format string components and check if they've been removed by mistake?
[01:05] <jdub> that's a great idea
[01:05] <jdub> we should do that
[01:05] <jdub> (the latter, that is -> it preserves format strings already..)
[01:06] <jdub> * with translation memory, different projects use different terms - will rosetta have global and per-project glossaries?
[01:07] <jdub> we had a request for this, very much related to translation memory features
[01:07] <jdub> * what about project management integration, for translation review and so on?
[01:07] <jdub> great idea, we should do that
[01:09] <jdub> it would be great to have a hierarchy of skilled translators
[01:09] <jdub> a review tree
[01:09] <jdub> these kinds of things will come up a lot as people use it
[01:09] <jdub> we will be very open to suggestions
[01:12] <jdub> * will it be open source?
[01:12] <jdub> we want to at some stage
[01:12] <jdub> it is very integrated into launchpad
[01:13] <jdub> which is pretty centralised, with integration into revision control and all the other tools
[01:13] <jdub> so there are benefits to having one central system
[01:14] <jdub> very convenient for upstreams to have one place to go
[01:14] <jdub> (#: you guys can ask questions here, you don't have to /msg me :)
[01:15] <jdub> * does it support formats other than po?
[01:15] <jdub> not yet, but it will later on
[01:15] <ctd> Question: Are your hands getting tired yet?
[01:15] <jdub> tms, xliff, etc.
[01:15] <jdub> (heh, sort of)
[01:16] <jdub> * can translators use tools on their own computer?
[01:16] <jdub> yes, they can use emacs and so on, but still collaborate within rosetta
[01:16] <jdub> so you can upload and download po files
[01:16] <jdub> in the future, there will be an xml-rpc protocol and pygtk application for translation
[01:16] <jdub> plus you can use the revision control system as well
[01:17] <lifeless> whoa.
[01:17] <lifeless> PEOPLE.
[01:17] <jdub> :)
[01:18] <ctd> Is it just me who sees people join multiple times?
[01:18] <ctd> Since it's only been this channel. 
[01:18] <jdub> * can we make it as easy to see the translated application as pressing a button?
[01:18] <jdub> wow! great idea!
[01:18] <koke> ctd, it's a matrix failure ;)
[01:19] <jdub> * can anyone put new projects in rosetta? even non-free?
[01:19] <jdub> no one's asked that before :-)
[01:20] <jdub> we have lots to discuss about ownership of translations, copyright, translation memory, etc.
[01:21] <jdub> * what about spell checking? :)
[01:22] <jdub> great idea
[01:24] <jdub> * which new formats are planned?
[01:24] <jdub> we'd like to do manpages
[01:25] <jdub> converters from openoffice and mozilla formats to po
[01:25] <jdub> etc.
[01:26] <jdub> (discussion about who would like to try it and use it, etc)
[01:26] <jdub> there is a mailing list
[01:27] <jdub> rosetta-users
[01:27] <jdub> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/rosetta-users
[01:28] <Treenaks> why are the list archives private?
[01:28] <Simira> that's new to me. Tell them to put a link to it from the Rosetta web
[01:28] <jdub> Treenaks: it was a beta list for a while
[01:28] <jdub> i will ask about it
[01:29] <jdub> okay, i will fix that up :)
[01:35] <jdub> done
[01:35] <jdub> alright
[01:35] <jdub> having a break
[01:35] <jdub> between sessions
[01:35] <Treenaks> lunch break? :)
[01:35] <jdub> will come back soon :-)
[01:35] <jdub> THIS ROCKS!
[01:35] <jdub> Treenaks: nah, just a short break
[01:36] <Tsjoklat> jdub follows the rules behind the logitech keyboard
[01:37] <Treenaks> Tsjoklat: "According to some experts, the use of any keyboard can induce injury"
[01:38] <Tsjoklat> Treenaks ja :) and one should take regular breaks
[01:41] <jdub> NEXT SESSION!
[01:41] <jdub> mako and ismael olea
[01:42] <jdub> talking about collaboration and convergence
[01:42] <jdub> there are so many distros in spain
[01:42] <jdub> derived from debian
[01:42] <jdub> in so many regions
[01:43] <jdub> there is not enough communication and collaboration
[01:43] <jdub> how can we fix that?
[01:43] <jdub> there are technical and non-technical/political problems
[01:43] <jdub> (ismael is translating)
[01:44] <jdub> at the end we can talk about solutions
[01:44] <jdub> ideas we might have to make collaboration work
[01:45] <jdub> political problems
[01:46] <jdub> * respect for standards and making standards
[01:46] <jdub> * secrecy!
[01:47] <jdub> * general communication
[01:47] <jdub> * "not invented here", wanting to be different
[01:48] <jdub> * geographical location, hard to meet up
[01:48] <jdub> and timezones
[01:48] <Q-FUNK> "not made here" - sounds like Debian all over again.
[01:49] <jdub> * cultural differences, inability to work around
[01:50] <jdub> * different deadlines and priorities, technical or not
[01:50] <Kamion> Q-FUNK: I don't think we were describing our own position there.
[01:50] <Kamion> Q-FUNK: the comment was in the context of the many distributions in Spain.
[01:51] <jdub> (#: comments for the meeting here, discussion elsewhere please :)|
[01:51] <jdub> * different audiences
[01:53] <jdub> * resources, difference and sharing
[01:54] <jdub> == Technical Barriers to Convergence ==
[01:54] <jdub> list from first session is a good starting point for this
[01:55] <jdub> * compatibility -> infrastructure, applications, etc.
[01:56] <jdub> * language and communication with developers
[01:57] <jdub> * duplication of work, lack of visibility
[01:58] <jdub> people working on same packages in different distros
[01:58] <jdub> horizontal (regional) distros vs. vertical (thematic) distros
[01:59] <jdub> * configuration -> 'flavours' (same stuff, different configuration)
[01:59] <jdub> * different security policies
[02:00] <jdub> * hardware platforms
[02:02] <jdub> * no common place to share needs, issues, etc. even between local government distros in spain
[02:03] <jdub> * branding
[02:03] <jdub> * delivery methods
[02:04] <jdub> (we should have an ubuntu punched cards project)
[02:04] <jdub> dvds, cds, network install, etc.
[02:04] <jdub> * binary compatibility, releases, common base, etc.
[02:05] <jdub> * thin clients
[02:07] <jdub> * old computers (for use with thin clients, or special software needs)
[02:09] <jdub> * managing large installations
[02:10] <jdub> * live cds, different installers, etc.
[02:12] <jdub> * giving back (higher distro or upstream software) or sharing (similar distros)
[02:16] <jdub> * support live cycle and releases of the distros
[02:17] <jdub> - software selection
[02:17] <jdub> - configuration
[02:17] <jdub> - code changes
[02:17] <jdub> - installation
[02:18] <jdub> SOLUTIONS
[02:19] <jdub> * it's crazy to assume that we can all use the same thing, whether it's debian, ubuntu, red hat, suse, whatever
[02:19] <jdub> so we have to manage the differences
[02:19] <jdub> sharing the infrastructure for managing those differences makes sense
[02:19] <jordi> (woah, and I thought Jeff was sitting in the corner doing his stuff...)
[02:20] <jdub> CDD proposal -> common way of specifying what you want from your custom distribution
[02:20] <jdub> common way to select packages
[02:20] <jdub> common way to configure packages
[02:21] <jdub> sharing repository, and sharing branches@
[02:21] <jdub> two models for custom distributions being pushed...
[02:21] <jdub> low priority debconf questions -> adding the ability to configure the package, and not changing the defaults
[02:21] <jdub> pre-seeding different answers for configuration differences between distros
[02:24] <jdub> suggestion to work upstream in debian instead of making new repositories
[02:25] <jdub> branding-only packages in different repository
[02:25] <jdub> debian == big repository in the sky
[02:26] <Q-FUNK> I would simply package pre-seeding files with Ubuntu defaults, but otherwise use standard Debian.
[02:27] <Q-FUNK> ... + ubuntu-specific file in their own small repository.
[02:27] <jdub> problem is release timing differences, teamwork problems,
[02:30] <Q-FUNK> another alternative would be to release only core Ubuntu supported packages, then pin those with a higher priority than Debian.
[02:30] <jdub> (difficult to summarise comments, if anyone wants to summarise, please say)
[02:30] <jdub> Q-FUNK: discussion elsewhere please
[02:30] <Q-FUNK> for any other packages, instead of universe, we'd have regular Debian testing or unstable, pinned at lower priority.
[02:30] <jordi> jdub: I could try to help
[02:31] <jdub> one big repository vs. multiple repositories
[02:31] <Q-FUNK> jdub: where do I feed ideas BACK to the meeting since I'm not there to voice my opiion then?
[02:31] <jdub> referring to discussion earlier about this - having to manage the differences in priorities and deadlines
[02:32] <jdub> Q-FUNK: here, those issues have been raised
[02:32] <jdub> mark:
[02:33] <jdub> before starting ubuntu, researched how revision control could help solve this problem
[02:33] <jdub> best solution was arch, now we're working on matching bitkeeper with bazaar
[02:33] <jdub> matching and exceeding :)
[02:33] <jdub> starting with arch instead of starting from nothing
[02:34] <jdub> understanding relationships between different distro versions
[02:34] <jdub> VERY hard problem
[02:34] <jdub> right now we don't have a solution to deliver
[02:34] <jdub> but we're working very hard on these tools
[02:34] <jdub> hundreds of thousands of lines of changes in debian/ubuntu's X
[02:34] <jdub> we're not just looking at the differences
[02:35] <jdub> we're looking at the differences between differences :)
[02:35] <jdub> not only between debian distros
[02:35] <jdub> but all distros
[02:36] <jdub> (#: we're not really talking about very specific technical solutions here, more the broad brush strokes of solutions)
[02:36] <jdub> discussion of partnership between common distros
[02:37] <Q-FUNK> jdub: is that aprtnership actually going to ahppen, according to Mark & all?
[02:37] <jdub> it is a suggestion during brainstorming discussion
[02:38] <jdub> can spanish distros use same cd, different choices for region
[02:38] <jdub> requires political coordination
[02:38] <jordi> which is _very_ difficult
[02:38] <jdub> (#: mako keeps tripping over the eazel)
[02:39] <Q-FUNK> jordi: maybe not here, but could you explain what makes it so politically difficult to coordinate and collaborate in Spain?
[02:39] <jdub> the open source community as a whole can act as that 'central' arbitrator
[02:40] <jdub> it will grow to solve those problems
[02:40] <jdub> technical solution of single cd is relatively simple, but the political issues are the hard part there
[02:41] <jdub> (lots of reference to political differences in spain, which jordi can explain as he is a member of the catalunya independence army)
[02:41] <jdub> we can create models to allow for horizontal and vertical collaboration
[02:42] <jdub> coordinating releases and security and so on
[02:45] <jdub> lots of discussion about common release base and different versions on top per priority
[02:45] <jdub> ubuntu/kubuntu release cycles vs. single repository
[02:45] <jdub> (gnome and kde release cycle differences)
[02:45] <jdub> security in ubuntu
[02:46] <jdub> malone will help enormously for our security efforts in multiple releases
[02:46] <jdub> we hope it will be useful for all distros to share information
[02:46] <jdub> we collaborate with debian for security patches and so on
[02:46] <jdub> public mailing list 'security-review' for collaboration
[02:51] <jdub> we are focusing on code a lot, but even small changes like icons are code-like changes
[02:52] <jdub> but we are probably focusing on the micro problems, not the macro problems
[02:53] <jdub> how about the live cd model? same base system, different packages on top
[02:54] <jdub> common base system proposal again
[02:56] <jdub> how many DDs or NMs? lots of hands :)
[03:01] <jdub> (phew, sorry, i was talking a bit)
[03:02] <jdub> talking about debian as an engine room for front-end distros
[03:02] <jdub> like the way gnome sees itself
[03:02] <jdub> cultural change to see derivatives as partners, not competition
[03:04] <jdub> discussion about derivative collaboration is similar to business collaboration
[03:04] <jdub> ending point
[03:04] <jdub> wrapping up stuff
[03:04] <jdub> mark:
[03:05] <jdub> - this is a fascinating challenge to produce an absolutely free distribution
[03:05] <jdub> - there will never be a requirement to put 'ubuntu' in a derived distribution
[03:05] <jdub> - if we're going to do it, we can share the difficult challenges with translations, bugs, etc.
[03:06] <jdub> - too long we've focused on centralisation, one organisation, etc.
[03:06] <jdub> - we don't have all the solutions, but this is a great list
[03:07] <jdub> thank you very much
[03:07] <jdub> time for lunch :-)
[03:07] <jdub> applause, sighs of relief, etc.
[03:07] <jdub> [03:07] <jdub> that's all
[03:08] <jdub> that's all from me :-)
[03:09] <Q-FUNK> thanks for the summary.
[03:11] <Synek> .part
[04:01] <koke> hey, there's no broadcast of the lunch?? ;P
[08:30] <koke> hi all!
[08:31] <koke> is there any dinner/party planned for tonight??