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enricoGood morning people!08:09
enricoI imagine you are all still sleeping at this time, though08:09
enricoHowever, I wanted to send some HIs, telling you that I got to Taiwan, I got a new laptop and I'm bringing it online08:09
enricoActually, with Ubuntu it installs out of the box, but I generally use Debian My Way and it takes a bit more08:10
enricosee you later!08:10
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ChrisHHey, folks...09:13
KinnisonHi Chris09:14
ChrisHHi, Dave... :)09:14
=== Kinnison inverts ChrisH
KinnisonChrisH: try /whois09:15
ChrisHYou can't do that, Dave!09:15
ChrisHI was David Bowman.09:15
=== Kinnison sighs
Kinnisonyou're a silly silly man :-)09:16
ChrisHI'm severely tired...09:16
ChrisHJust had yesterday to recover from the journey. And a friend came by to ask which Linux flavor he should talk to get an easy desktop. So much for the Sunday. :)09:17
=== ChrisH seriously needs more caffeine
plovs_workhi guys09:31
jiyuu0plovs_work, hello09:36
jiyuu0is this disclamer ok?09:37
jiyuu0Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document for non commercial purpose, so long as all appropriate credit is provided, including author's name and original URL. The author makes no claim to the accuracy of the information provided. This information is provided in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY. Use this information at your own risk. Always make proper backups and use caution when modifying critical 09:37
jiyuu0system files.09:37
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Burgundavia_hello all11:05
KinnisonMarning Burgundavia_ 11:10
luluhi all :o)11:25
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Burgundavia_Kinnison, ??12:08
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Burgundavia_anybody object if I set up a baz archive, as I don't have commit access to the svn archive12:24
ChrisHBurgundavia_: Hi, Corey... can you set up that baz repo on the Canonical servers? Someone from Canonical promised to offer a sandbox.12:25
KinnisonFor now, it'll be best for corey to do the archive on his machine I guess12:26
KinnisonWe don't have an official place for it12:26
Burgundavia_is the userguide currently the quickguide?12:26
Kinnisonbaz is good enough that once you have an official place for it; you just branch it into the official place and everyone works from there instead12:26
ChrisHBurgundavia_: No, the user guide is the large document. The quick guide does not yet have a place afaik.12:27
ChrisHKinnison: Sounds good.12:27
Burgundavia_ChrisH, does the quickguide exist yet?12:27
=== ChrisH wishes he could have stayed for the baz BOF
KinnisonSo I should help Burgundavia_ set up an archive for working on the quick-guide stuff?12:27
KinnisonBaz is pretty simple in the basic use-case12:27
ChrisHBurgundavia_: Alex has started it already. But I think it's not committed yet.12:27
Burgundavia_yes, I saw alex working on it12:28
KinnisonIs alex still here?12:28
ChrisHDon't think so. He's online as plovs_work 12:29
ChrisHKinnison, Burgundavia_: Yes, would be great if you too create a baz repo.12:29
Burgundavia_ok can do12:29
ChrisHIs there already some basic information on a Wiki page on how to work with it? Like the 10 most frequently used commands or a simple transition guide for CVS/SVN users? I'd appreciate that.12:30
Burgundavia_check out the doc that can be installed with baz12:30
KinnisonChrisH: I tell you what. I'll get Burgundavia_ to write a "quick start for baz for docteam" doc12:31
ChrisHIsn't there a baz BOF these days that someone can take notes at?12:32
KinnisonMako is taking notes IIRC12:32
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enricoHello!  Who's left at the conference?01:20
=== Kinnison raises his hand
enricoKinnison: welcome in ubuntu-doc!01:21
enricoall the others have left already?01:21
Kinnisonenrico: Now; don't take my presence as meaning that I want to write docs :-)01:22
=== Kinnison is helping Burgundavia_ with baz
enricoBurgundavia_: welcome in ubuntu-doc!01:22
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ChrisHenrico: Hey... :)01:25
Burgundavia_I have set up a baz archive and have started working on the quickguide01:29
KinnisonI *would* teach him how to make a mirror; but he lacks any webspace of use01:30
=== Kinnison attempts to pimp Pepperfish at Burgundavia_
enricoChrisH: hey!01:32
KinnisonBurgundavia_: You want Pepperfish hosting. Mmmmm Pepperfish01:33
enricoKinnison: pepperfish?01:34
Burgundavia_that is Kinnison's hosting company01:36
enricooh, cool!  Does he give out free hosting? :)01:37
KinnisonNo :-)01:37
plovs_workhi guys, sorry for being away, work is really work sometimes01:53
plovs_workjiyuu0, welcome to license-hell01:54
jiyuu0so long to read01:54
jiyuu0and confusing01:54
plovs_workjiyuu0, and what you wrote is still not free enough, i'm afraid01:54
jiyuu0maybe i'll take it out... no license01:55
plovs_workjiyuu0, no go, you need some sort of license :-)01:55
plovs_workjiyuu0, but we can work something out01:56
plovs_workjiyuu0, now you know where all the lawyer jokes coe from01:56
plovs_workcome from01:56
plovs_workit's all their fault01:56
jiyuu0i think i'll just put whatever i've modified today01:57
jiyuu0then later wait for ppl to suggest01:57
jiyuu0at least better than my previous disclaimer01:57
enricoplovs_work: hi!  Are you back to work already?01:57
enricowhat is the license problem?01:57
plovs_workenrico, hi! yes back at work, how is Taiwan?01:57
plovs_workenrico, jiyuu0 is trying to find a license for his work, without being beaten up01:58
enricoplovs_work: quite nice!  Very warm, cheap laptops (I finally got a new one)01:58
plovs_workenrico, about time :-)01:58
enricoplovs_work: what are the requirements?  GFDL?  Some free version of CreativeCommons?01:58
plovs_workjiyuu0, enrico knows more about licenses then most of us01:58
jiyuu0plovs_work, yes... givin but still got crusify01:59
plovs_workjiyuu0, that is license-hell for you, for fun say GFDL is not free on #debian-legal01:59
jiyuu0how can free not free02:00
jiyuu0some ppl just like to debate02:00
enricodebian-legal is generally a bit of a mess02:00
plovs_workenrico, what is a good license for docs?02:00
plovs_workenrico, and why?02:00
enricohowever, it may be that Debian and FSF sort the mess and something will be solved02:00
plovs_workenrico, i think they will, it is really knit-picking they are doing atm02:01
enricoplovs_work: a good license depends on what you want to do with it02:01
plovs_workjiyuu0, so what do you want to do with it?02:02
plovs_workwhat are your requirements?02:02
jiyuu0give it away for free... do whatever u like.. give some credit... and not use for commercial02:02
plovs_workenrico, it is about http://ubuntuguide.org/ btw02:03
plovs_workenrico, could we use material license under such a license?02:03
plovs_workenrico, i would like to use the material if all parties agree, it is really good02:04
Burgundavia_If it is non-commercial, can we still include that in our stuff?02:04
plovs_workBurgundavia_, still in Spain?02:04
Burgundavia_I don't know if you caught it, but I am actively working on the quick guide on my machine02:05
jiyuu0Burgundavia_, wuld non-commercial be an issue?02:06
enricojiyuu0: uh, non commercial is quite a requirement.  For example, GFDL allows commercial redistribution (that is, selling it) as long as when you buy it, it is still free software (that is, you can modify it, sell it, give it away and so on)02:06
Burgundavia_I don't know02:06
Burgundavia_I will go find a Canonical person and clear it02:07
plovs_workjiyuu0, for example if we would put it on the cd, we want to be able to sell the cd02:07
jiyuu0enrico, so if they take it... just change the name... print it and sell... it's ok?02:07
Burgundavia_jiyuu0, and they give you credit also02:07
jiyuu0plovs_work, but ubuntu going to be free right?02:08
Burgundavia_That is how about 5-10 years ago all those guides came out that that were basically just tldp stuff glued together02:08
plovs_workenrico, gfdl does not require credit does it?02:08
enricojiyuu0: if they take it, change the title, print it and sell it it's ok as long as what they print and sell is still free (that is, when you buy you can then modify, print, sell, give away...)02:08
enricojiyuu0: however, they can't take your name away from it (that is even illegal in many countries, no matter what the license says)02:08
plovs_workjiyuu0, it is freem you can download it, but it is ok to sell the disc as well02:08
plovs_workjiyuu0, afaik the stuff we write is or will be under gfdl (right enrico?)02:09
KinnisonGPL *please*02:09
jiyuu0i think i'll follow the license u guys use02:09
jiyuu0less headache02:10
plovs_workjiyuu0, i am sorry for the trouble, but that is the world we live in...02:10
enricoplovs_work: he can decide.  I think GPL would be nice.02:10
plovs_workenrico, what is the difference between GPL and GFDL?02:10
plovs_workenrico, for simple people like me? with short words?02:11
enricojiyuu0: GPL says that the work should come with its source code, so if you generate the HTML from some other file, you should also distribute the sources02:11
plovs_workBurgundavia_, could i get your stuff from somewhere to check it out?02:11
jiyuu0but gpl only for software right... no doc02:12
plovs_workenrico, eg the docbook file i am writing already02:12
enricojiyuu0: GFDL is still a bit messy now, in that it allows some parts to be unmodifiable02:12
jiyuu0and the html is the whole source code02:12
=== enrico will try to summon mako, which is more expert in these things
plovs_workjiyuu0, at least you get to meet lots of nteristing folk :-)02:13
=== jiyuu0 hope not to meet with lawyer
plovs_workjiyuu0, make is not a lawyer afaik, besides he's a funny guy02:14
plovs_workjiyuu0, mako02:15
enricojiyuu0: I think plovs_work scared you a bit, though02:16
enricomako isn't responding now unfortunately02:16
lulujiyuu0: Hiya! I'm not a license lawyer. We need to update the website with our documentation license = GFDL. We have decided on this as Canonical is a commercial company  and we sponsor Ubuntu. 02:17
jiyuu0i just don't want to make other ppl / myself in trouble because of the guide...02:17
enricoI know GPL very well, something of Creative Commons, but not much of GFDL except that it's still a bit messy02:17
luluWe understand that there are invarient sections and we ask that as these are contentious, they are not included. However, you are entitled to license your work under any license you choose. You may have taken work from the wiki and mailing lists. Mailing list doc are copyright by their owner I understand. Wiki work is copyright by the owner and people assign copyright to Canonical so we can use work to help Ubuntu.02:18
=== mako [mako@micha.hampshire.edu] has joined #ubuntu-doc
makohey there02:18
Burgundavia_also remember that CCbyA is not compatible with GFDL02:18
KinnisonBurgundavia_: If you need it I can always set you up a space to put your bazaar archive mirror for others to work with02:18
enricomako: !02:18
makoenrico: hey there02:18
enricomako: welcome!02:18
enricomako: plovs_work asked about the difference between GPL and GFDL02:19
makoalright.. the GFDL is designe specifically for documentation and the GPL refers particularly to computer programs02:19
makobut additionally, RMS believes that the two should be treated differently02:20
jiyuu0lulu, but if my work is taken from elsewhere... like previous research on fedora/other distro... how does that count?02:20
makoboth have copyleft style parts02:20
jiyuu0it's not exactly from wiki and mailing list here...02:20
makothe GPL is more simple and portable but it refers to things like binaries versus, source, etc etc which don't apply cleanly to the world of documentation02:20
makothe GFDL is much younger and more controversial02:21
plovs_workmako, is it possible to license and the later change it to something else?02:21
makoit allows for invariant, non-removeable sections (which are limited to "off topic" primarily non-technical bits in teh text of the license but are often not described that way)02:21
Burgundavia_jiyuu0, The simplest thing to remember is that if you are original creator, you can relicense at will. If you are not, you can only use under the license granted02:22
makoin addition to invarient non-removeable front covertexts, back-covertexts02:22
makodedications, acknolwedgements02:22
makoand invarient removeable endorsements02:22
lulujiyuu0: what you take from elsewhere remains under the license it was created under.02:22
makoit also contains a number of issue which are more commonly described as "bugs" in the license02:22
jiyuu0Burgundavia_, but u talking about some command and stuff02:22
Burgundavia_In addition, if there is no licence explicitly given, the work remain copyright, and you cannot use it02:22
jiyuu0so it's hard to justify where it's from02:22
jiyuu0it could be from friend02:22
makoincluding one part which some people have interpreted to mean that encryption or even compression of GFDL documents might be in violation of the license02:22
jiyuu0or here and there...02:22
makoit's very clear that this is not the intention, and rms has said he would want to fix this02:23
Burgundavia_jiyuu0, A statement like "rm -rf" cannot be copyright, but "Using rm -rf while root at / is not recommonded" is02:23
makobut for a number of political reason, teh FSF has been very slow to release a new draft of the license -- even to solve the "bugs".. software is (and should be) a higher priority for them02:23
jiyuu0lulu, elsewhere could be own research... from ppl, books, internet02:23
makoplovs_work: the copyright holder of a work can relicense a work02:23
jiyuu0Burgundavia_, but if taken from different resource with diff license... how?02:24
makoplovs_work: but they can't change the of texts which they have already distributed under any free software license02:24
Burgundavia_jiyuu0, It is better to be safe than sorry, as companies (ie Canonical) usually make better targets02:24
makoplovs_work: things get complicated when you have many contributors to a single project02:24
plovs_workmako, ok, thanks02:24
jiyuu0Burgundavia_, sigh... headache... really confused02:25
makoplovs_work: because it would mean taht you either need to find all contributs to relicense (and get them to consent) or you need to have *signed* copyright assignements02:25
Burgundavia_jiyuu0, Yes, copyright sucks02:25
makoplovs_work: this is what the FSF does. if you want to contribute to an fsf project.. you fax them a signed copyright assignment02:25
jiyuu0mako, would you mind lookin at http://ubuntuguide.org and suggest a proper license02:25
makojiyuu0: i have seen it02:26
jiyuu0mako, info there are not taken 100% from ubuntu wiki02:26
jiyuu0but a mix from here and there02:26
makoone problem with the GFDL is that is basically incompatible with *every* other license02:26
enricoI suggest you slow down the discussion a bit, before jiyuu0 gets a headache...02:26
ChrisHToo late for me already. :)02:26
jiyuu0enrico, thanks... tension with these issues02:26
Burgundavia_plovs_work, Kinnison is going to set me up a public mirror after the meeting02:27
plovs_workjiyuu0, sorry for the trouble, and i *still* think your doc is great02:27
makojiyuu0: it depends on what you want.. if you want debian to be able to include it, something like the GPL or a public domain dedication or a BSD style license would be a good idee02:27
plovs_workBurgundavia_, who is Kinnison? do i know him? (who am i? do i really exist? ...)02:27
jiyuu0mako, so meaning GPL is the standard... with less problem02:28
jiyuu0compared to others02:28
makojiyuu0: i personally use CC licenses.. usually the CC version 1.0 sharealike or the new cc-attrib-sharelike.. although the new licenses are not debian compatible02:28
Burgundavia_plovs_work, Kinnison =  Daniel Silverstone02:28
makojiyuu0: well, it's a software license.. and it doesn't require attribution, if this is something that you want02:28
ChrisHplovs_work: Haven't you been to the Marina with us? :) Kinnison was the guy besides my wife.02:28
plovs_worki was, you have a photo?02:29
ChrisHplovs_work: All his photos suck. And I didn't take one of him.02:29
jiyuu0mako, so i'll go for GPL then02:29
jiyuu0if that solves the problem02:29
plovs_workChrisH, ok, got it already, sorry, old age setting in...02:29
ChrisHplovs_work: John seems to be confused about the quick guide...02:31
makojiyuu0: right.. now if you've used pieces from the wiki, those bits are copyright the author02:31
jiyuu0have to credit em?02:31
plovs_workChrisH, i can do a write-up to the list02:31
makojiyuu0: technically, you have to get the permission for hte authors02:32
jiyuu0that is not somthing easy... i have to do reverse engineering02:33
makojiyuu0: it's very difficult02:33
makojiyuu0: i mean, go ahead adn put your document under the license of your choice02:33
ChrisHplovs_work: Very good. We should coordinate work on the nutshell thingy (the "6000 words" one), too.02:33
plovs_workBurgundavia_, could you send me what you have by mail?02:34
KinnisonBurgundavia_: once I've sorted you out with a mirror for your archive; I'll take you through what is needed for others to work with you and then you can write a wikipage for it02:35
enricomako: what would it take to make it so that everything in the wiki is under a free license?02:36
enricomako: putting notices in the edit pages?02:37
makothat is what other people do02:37
enricomako: could we do it as well?02:37
makothat is what, for example, wikipedia does02:37
makoyes, we could do it02:37
makoif you forsee enforcement of the license though, i seriously doubt this will be enough02:38
luluenrico: we were going to put it in the legal page with all the legal stuff. Do you think we need it on every page?02:38
enricomako: I think we shuold, since we intend the wiki to be a scrapbook for bigger documentation02:38
enricolulu: in the "edit page" page for sure02:38
makothe FSF requires signed copyright assignements from every significant contributor to a gnu project02:38
enricomako: oh, annoying02:38
luluenrico: edit page = good idea.02:40
makolulu: yes02:41
makoenrico: yeah, this is why people don't do it02:41
makoreally, the biggest problem i forsee is having lots of documents that you want merge under incompatible licenses02:41
makoquite honestly, i don't see consensus forming around the GFDL for a number of reasons02:42
makobut there is a lot of existing technical and free software documentation under the GFDL02:42
makobut if we were to merge most of it, it would require bringing in invarient nonremoveable sections and printing things like "A GNU Manual" on the cover of any books and the address of the FSF on the back02:43
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=== sid77 hi
plovs_workKinnison, will this mirror be svn, arch or ftp?03:10
Kinnisonit'll be a bazaar mirror03:10
Kinnisonover ftp03:10
Kinnisonor http03:10
plovs_workKinnison, but we might use baz as well?03:10
KinnisonIndeed. Bazaar is the right way (tm)03:11
plovs_workKinnison, thanks, cool03:11
=== lifeless [~robertc@dsl-] has joined #ubuntu-doc
KinnisonIf people need bazaar help, lifeless here is the project lead03:13
ChrisHlifeless: Hey... glad to have someone who answers to stupid questions. :)03:14
plovs_worklifeless, we want zsh command-line completion for baz ... please?03:14
ChrisHFirst we probably need some documentation on baz (Wiki Quickstart page)03:15
plovs_workChrisH, spoilsport03:15
lifelessso, there is a wiki, and we're starting on doco at the moment.03:16
ChrisHVery good, Sir.03:16
lifelessfor zeesh, someone could port the tla completions :)03:17
lifelessI'm not a zeesher.03:17
makoBurgundavia_: what were your concerns with using the GPL for commerciail publications?03:22
makoBurgundavia_: the GPL does not bar commercial distributrion of software and would not bar commercial distribution of documentation either03:22
Burgundavia_No, my concern was not around the GPL03:23
makoBurgundavia_: what was it with?03:23
makoi guess i didn't really follow it03:23
Burgundavia_My concern was around the current license of jiyuu0's text says non-commercial only03:23
makoBurgundavia_: oh, right03:23
jiyuu0i can remove it03:23
makowell, it sounds like jiyuu0 is interested in fixing that03:24
makojiyuu0: lets wait a day or two and try to find the Right license03:24
makojiyuu0: i like the idea of using CC-BY-SA myself03:24
=== jiyuu0 checkin
makoi think it's free enough that it is in the spirit (and maybe even letter) of free software licenses but ensures that attribution is kept (which the GFDL does) and that it is copyleft (that the GFDL does) almost any of the parts people find problematic03:25
makosorry without almost any of the parts taht people find problematic03:25
makothat page is not the text of the license, althought it has a link.. but is a good human readable summary03:26
Burgundavia_but that leaves us out in the cold as we use GFDL does it not?03:26
makoBurgundavia_: define we? :)03:26
makoBurgundavia_: i'm going to talk to mark shuttleworth about the canonical produce documentation03:26
Burgundavia_the doc team03:26
makobut almost everyone on the docteam can use whatever license they choose03:27
makobecause they don't work for canonical03:27
makoand people, like jiyuu0 and many others.. are not particularly happy about the GFDL03:27
enricomako: well, mark already decided on GFDL some time ago03:27
jiyuu0actually i have no issues03:28
Burgundavia_I am not a huge fan of the GFDL either03:28
makoi'm not either actually, but since i work for canonical it doesn't matter :)03:28
jiyuu0only scared ppl have issue on me03:28
makojiyuu0: well, there are reasons to be concerned by the GFDL03:28
makojiyuu0: at least the current draft03:28
makoenrico: lulu has asked me to talk to mark about this03:28
makoenrico: because it is a topic that keeps coming up on the doc list and seems to be keeping people from doing work and moving forward03:28
makoenrico: do you think moving to a non-gfdl documentation license would be an improvement?03:29
makoi'm a little worried because evidently, many people in wikipedia are regretting their decisions03:29
Burgundavia_When WP was started CC did not exist03:29
makobut because they do not track copyright holders, they can't relicense03:29
Burgundavia_otherwise they would probably have gone with it03:30
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makoCC licenses are (a) international (b) written by lawyers (c) more tested and more used (d) more simple (to enfforce, to understand, to use)03:30
makogfdl has optional front cover texts, back cover texts, invarient sections, acknowledgements, dedications, endorsements and additional bits that come to effect when you're copying in quantity03:31
makoit's complex :)03:31
Burgundavia_GFDL makes it almost impossible to small printed documents, as you need to print a whole crapload of hte GFDL03:32
makoBurgundavia_: yes03:32
makoBurgundavia_: CC licenses allow you to provide a URI03:32
mako*and* CC documents are international03:32
makothere are versions updated to the language and law of a dozen or so countries03:33
makowhile the GFDL is US only03:33
makoi mean, it might o03:33
makowork other places too.. but that wasn't a goal03:33
Burgundavia_but all this wonderful talk is just hotair unless we can get Mark to go along03:33
makoBurgundavia_: i can talk to mark03:33
makobut i would like to be able to say taht i'm representing teh view of more than myself :)03:34
makoenrico: what do you think?03:34
makoenrico: i know one of your concerns was with debian compatibilituy03:34
Burgundavia_I would go with CCbySA if we can03:34
makoenrico: and quite honestly, i don't know a single up-to-date documentation license taht debian-legal likes03:35
makoenrico: but i suspect that if someoen pushed a gr, the CC-bysa would pass03:35
Burgundavia_so pretty much debian compatiablity is a no go anyway03:35
makounless you want to use a sofware license for documentation.. or a public domain dedication03:35
makowhich is not necessarily bad03:36
enricomako: I don't know much about Debian, but I think that debian's rebuttal of it made many people wary03:36
makoalthough i prefer copyleft licenses myself03:36
makoenrico: of the GFDL or of the CC-bysa03:36
plovs_workmako, i would like as free as possible, but debian-compatible as well03:36
enricoI do prefer copyleft licenses03:36
enricoOf the GFDL, because it made much more noise03:36
enricowhat was wrong with the CC-bysa?03:36
makoenrico: unless you use a pre 2.0 CC (i.e, out of date), there are no copyleft documentation licenses i know of03:36
makoenrico: very bizarre hair splitting things03:37
enrico(besides the unspellable name, and probably that they've taken it out)03:37
enricothe only concern about GFDL was that it can't go in Debian main (so far)03:38
makobut i strongly disagree with most of that interpretation03:38
makoi think that "03:39
makoIf this is the case, private distribution of the work would seem to be03:39
makoforbidden. Along with obvious technological measures that control access,03:39
makosuch as a firewall on a LAN or a virtual private network (VPN), distributing03:39
makousing encryption (such as Secure Sockets Layer (SSL)) would appear to be03:39
makothat is a pretty ridiculous interpretation03:39
makoit's CLEAR to me that they're not banning private distribution :)03:39
makointent matters in law and -legal doesn't seem to realize that03:39
enricoif you don't take intents into consideration when checking laws, no laws will ever be sane03:40
enricoone could add an explicit statement to please debian-legal, though, but that's a bit arrogant since debian-legal doesn't appear to be sane here03:41
enricoBTW, how come CC took that license out?03:41
makobecause 95+% of people who used CC licenses used attribution :)03:46
makothey said they would add them back if there was a major outcry03:47
makoi emailed them and ask them to create a pure SA license03:47
makobut i guess other people did not03:47
enricomako: let debian-legal do it04:05
Burgundavia_back again04:05
enricoor we can plea for CC-ification of a fixed GFDL like it happened with GPL04:05
Burgundavia_can I force an absolute path for loading of images in docbook format?04:05
ChrisHBurgundavia_: In theory: yes. But if someone decides to put the guide into somewhere different than / (which could easily happen on the ubuntulinux.org web site as well) then the image is broken.04:09
Burgundavia_ok, so the best is the distribute the image with the guide then?04:10
ChrisHWe need to do that anyway.04:15
Burgundavia_I have done a mock up of graphical style of showing how to use an application. I also think we can release it to translators as an svg, so they can just import the new screenshot and change the text, then reexport the png05:05
Burgundavia_what do people think?05:05
enricoBurgundavia_: I didn't quite get what you mean05:34
enricoBurgundavia_: :(05:34
Burgundavia_Ok, I think we should use screenshots05:35
Burgundavia_however, we should also have that screenshot with help messages showing what buttons do what05:36
Burgundavia_However, thus it makes hard to translate05:36
Burgundavia_my solution, keep the screenshot-with-explaination in svg format for us, and exported to png for the released document05:37
Burgundavia_thus, the translators can translate the svg and get a new screenshot and reexport05:37
Burgundavia_do you understand that?05:37
enricoah, ok.  But how do you make a SVG screenshot?05:50
enricoI'd love to be able to make SVG screenshots, actually05:50
Burgundavia_no svg screenshot, png screenshot05:52
Burgundavia_using gimp05:52
Burgundavia_the new license is CCbySA2.005:53
makohey guys, i just talked to mark05:54
enricoBurgundavia_: ah, screenshot-with-explanation!  Now I get it05:54
makoand he says that CCbysa is good to guy if there's consensus that it's a better license05:54
makogood to go even05:54
=== mako hugs enrico
=== mako highfives lulu
makoso, it's up to the team05:55
makoif there's consensus that CCbySA is a bettter choice, i can update the text and hook it up05:55
enricoBurgundavia_: can't it be done directly with captions inside docbook?  Or it's one of those cool explanations that circle the things and tell what they are?  In that case, yes, SVG would be very cool!05:55
enricomako: wasnt CCbySA outdated?05:55
Burgundavia_yes, it circles each description05:56
enricomako: I mean, not in 2.0?05:56
Burgundavia_enrico, yes by 2.005:56
makono.. CC-SA was outdated05:56
makoplain old sa is only a 1.0 license05:56
enricoso, CC did a 2.0 free license after all?05:56
makoby-sa is both a 1.0 anda  2.0 license05:56
enricoand is CCbySA free?  05:56
enricoand is CCbySA fine for Debian?05:56
lulumako: thanks for getting that initiated - so does everyone know what the CC-BY-SA license is and how it's different?05:57
makodebian legal said that *all* cc 2.0 licenses. perhaps 1.0 licenses are non-free05:57
makofor what are, in my opinion, questionable reasoning05:57
makothey claimed that the license as written blocked private distribution05:57
makowhich is not a sane interpretation of the license IMHO and very clearly not the intent of the license05:58
enricolulu: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/05:58
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sivangHI all05:58
makoenrico: yes05:58
sivangyo mako05:58
makosivang: home safe? :)05:58
enricosivang: hi!05:58
sivangyeah, but mataro home sick :)05:59
makoenrico: OT: are you in taiwan?05:59
enricomako: yes, and about to go to bed05:59
enricomako: and with a *new laptop*05:59
sivangI really miss the conference..and  all the guys..05:59
luluenrico: yes - thanks! :o) Mako sent it to me earlier - but others may not know...  http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ 05:59
sivangenrico : congretulations!05:59
sivanghi lulu!05:59
makoenrico: read that license.. i think it's in the spirit of free software06:00
makoenrico: i've also had CC employees tell me they were interested  din working with us to make their licesne DFSG free06:00
lulusivang: welcome back.! Ofer asked me for your email today, so he should be in touch soon.06:00
makoenrico: and there are *no* documentation licenses that -legal has approved06:00
makoenrico: i think we need to read teh license, read legals criticism, and then make our move06:00
sivanglulu : cool, thanks , I only now reached a machine so I will probably get those email by now.06:01
makoenrico: -legal has said they would not approve the GPL06:01
Burgundavia_When I import into Inkscape, I lose resolution, it is very annoying06:01
makoenrico: i'm confident that if/when someone pushese a gr on these licenses, we will be able to get this past the developers06:01
makoALSO, these licenses are all "ported" to other languages and legal systems06:01
makoso you can get the italian version updated to italian language and law.. and germany, brazil, japan, etc etc06:02
makoi have some serious criticism with the CC project. but they make very good licenses :)06:02
enricomako: yes, and CC is well known as well06:02
makoand widely used06:03
enricofor me, it's cool stuff.  Would you like to post to ubuntu-doc a summary of your talk with mark and its outcome?06:03
makoi'm comfortable going ahead of debian-legal with this licensees although i was not with the GFDL06:03
enrico(I'm on my way to the bed)06:03
makoenrico: yes.. it's up to the team ultimately06:03
makoenrico: i'll do that06:03
=== mako has been doing email NINJITSU today
lulumako: it will be great to resolve this for Ubuntu asap. Lets' aim to have it finalised before the end of the week if possible. well done :o)06:05
=== mako nods
enricomako: so this thing could be brought up to debian-legal to reopen a discussion to rechallenge the hair-splitting maybe06:07
enricobut I have no head to think about it now06:07
enrico01:07 here06:07
makoyeah, lets talk about legal another day06:07
enricoI mean, people are generally pissed about -legal, so it might come the time in which reopening discussions leads to toasting the original unreasonable things06:07
=== mako is a little sclared of -legal
makoit will be Mako Vs. The Natives06:07
makoand for political reasons regarding to the GFDL negotiations, i have been hesitant to challenge people on that list06:08
makobecuase they immediately say "you can't represent debian for the gfdl!" as soon as they see i disagree with any of them on anything06:08
enricomako: I suggest some teaming up with others, just not to be you against all06:08
makowell that doesn't mitigate the second issue06:09
=== enrico goes to bed
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Burgundavia_never mind, I can put the svg in a file and link it to the docbook06:19
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Burgundavia_I got svg to display in yelp, but pngs through svg look butt ugly06:47
KinnisonI know that feeling :-(06:56
Burgundavia_Kinnison, it works in greyscale06:59
KinnisonBurgundavia_: Smells like whatever renderer yelp is using is moosed then07:01
sivangKinnision : daniel!07:42
Kinnisonsivang: HI07:45
Burgundavia_it looks pretty slick07:52
Burgundavia_Kinnison, are you downstairs yet?07:52
sivangKinnision : since when you are hanging on the doc team channel? :)07:53
KinnisonBurgundavia_: yep07:53
sivangBurgundavia_ : hey cori, what's up?07:53
Kinnisonsivang: so you can say hi to me07:53
Kinnisonsivang: and I'm stalking Burgundavia_ for extra fun07:53
sivangno more mao for me :(07:54
KinnisonUntil you come again07:55
KinnisonI'll need that long to train corey up. He can't remember how 7s work07:55
sivangWill you be teaching him through IRC?07:56
Kinnisonhe's here07:56
Kinnisonwell, over <--- there07:56
sivangah right , Burgundavia_  untill when are you staying in the conference?07:57
Burgundavia_the very end07:57
Burgundavia_plus 2 days07:58
sivangah that's cool!07:58
=== sivang wished he had the money to allow him to attend to whole conference :-P
sivangwhy more 2 days?07:59
sivangare you going to tour mataro/barcelona in the remanining wones?07:59
Burgundavia_mako, get daff for me08:05
KinnisonBurgundavia_: daff?08:05
KinnisonBurgundavia_: it's 'daf' dearie08:06
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Burgundavia_hey plovs, I got svg working in yelp, but colour images don't work08:13
plovsand b/w images?08:14
Burgundavia_yep, works fine08:14
Burgundavia_so, we ship b/w until the yelp people get off their butt08:14
plovsweird, must be a bug08:14
plovscolour works ok here08:14
plovson hoary08:14
plovson warty also btw08:14
Burgundavia_png inside svg inside docbook in yelp?08:14
KinnisonBurgundavia_: right; we need to get your archive signed08:14
KinnisonBurgundavia_: How much have you committed to it?08:15
Burgundavia_a bunch08:18
Burgundavia_ah, I may not have committed08:19
Kinnisonright; we can do it cleanly08:19
Burgundavia_ya, committed08:29
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ChrisHWhere was the Moin markup page on the Wiki again?10:50

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