[08:09] <enrico> Good morning people!
[08:09] <enrico> I imagine you are all still sleeping at this time, though
[08:09] <enrico> However, I wanted to send some HIs, telling you that I got to Taiwan, I got a new laptop and I'm bringing it online
[08:10] <enrico> Actually, with Ubuntu it installs out of the box, but I generally use Debian My Way and it takes a bit more
[08:10] <enrico> see you later!
[08:47] <Kinnison> Morning
[09:13] <ChrisH> Hey, folks...
[09:14] <Kinnison> Hi Chris
[09:14] <ChrisH> Hi, Dave... :)
[09:15] <Kinnison> ChrisH: try /whois
[09:15] <ChrisH> You can't do that, Dave!
[09:15] <ChrisH> I was David Bowman.
[09:16] <Kinnison> you're a silly silly man :-)
[09:16] <ChrisH> I'm severely tired...
[09:17] <ChrisH> Just had yesterday to recover from the journey. And a friend came by to ask which Linux flavor he should talk to get an easy desktop. So much for the Sunday. :)
[09:17] <Kinnison> Heh
[09:26] <ChrisH> s/talk/take/
[09:31] <plovs_work> hi guys
[09:36] <jiyuu0> plovs_work, hello
[09:37] <jiyuu0> is this disclamer ok?
[09:37] <jiyuu0> Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document for non commercial purpose, so long as all appropriate credit is provided, including author's name and original URL. The author makes no claim to the accuracy of the information provided. This information is provided in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY. Use this information at your own risk. Always make proper backups and use caution when modifying critical 
[09:37] <jiyuu0> system files.
[11:05] <Burgundavia_> hello all
[11:07] <jiyuu0> hello
[11:10] <Kinnison> Marning Burgundavia_ 
[11:25] <lulu> hi all :o)
[12:08] <Burgundavia_> Kinnison, ??
[12:24] <Burgundavia_> anybody object if I set up a baz archive, as I don't have commit access to the svn archive
[12:25] <ChrisH> Burgundavia_: Hi, Corey... can you set up that baz repo on the Canonical servers? Someone from Canonical promised to offer a sandbox.
[12:26] <Kinnison> For now, it'll be best for corey to do the archive on his machine I guess
[12:26] <Kinnison> We don't have an official place for it
[12:26] <Burgundavia_> is the userguide currently the quickguide?
[12:26] <Kinnison> baz is good enough that once you have an official place for it; you just branch it into the official place and everyone works from there instead
[12:27] <ChrisH> Burgundavia_: No, the user guide is the large document. The quick guide does not yet have a place afaik.
[12:27] <ChrisH> Kinnison: Sounds good.
[12:27] <Burgundavia_> ChrisH, does the quickguide exist yet?
[12:27] <Kinnison> So I should help Burgundavia_ set up an archive for working on the quick-guide stuff?
[12:27] <Kinnison> Baz is pretty simple in the basic use-case
[12:27] <ChrisH> Burgundavia_: Alex has started it already. But I think it's not committed yet.
[12:28] <Burgundavia_> yes, I saw alex working on it
[12:28] <Kinnison> Is alex still here?
[12:29] <ChrisH> Don't think so. He's online as plovs_work 
[12:29] <ChrisH> Kinnison, Burgundavia_: Yes, would be great if you too create a baz repo.
[12:29] <Burgundavia_> ok can do
[12:30] <ChrisH> Is there already some basic information on a Wiki page on how to work with it? Like the 10 most frequently used commands or a simple transition guide for CVS/SVN users? I'd appreciate that.
[12:30] <Burgundavia_> check out the doc that can be installed with baz
[12:31] <Kinnison> ChrisH: I tell you what. I'll get Burgundavia_ to write a "quick start for baz for docteam" doc
[12:31] <Kinnison> bwuahahahaha
[12:31] <Burgundavia_> ahhh
[12:31] <ChrisH> :)
[12:32] <ChrisH> Isn't there a baz BOF these days that someone can take notes at?
[12:32] <Kinnison> Mako is taking notes IIRC
[12:32] <ChrisH> Good.
[01:20] <enrico> Hello!  Who's left at the conference?
[01:21] <enrico> Kinnison: welcome in ubuntu-doc!
[01:21] <enrico> all the others have left already?
[01:22] <Kinnison> enrico: Now; don't take my presence as meaning that I want to write docs :-)
[01:22] <enrico> Burgundavia_: welcome in ubuntu-doc!
[01:25] <ChrisH> enrico: Hey... :)
[01:29] <Burgundavia_> I have set up a baz archive and have started working on the quickguide
[01:29] <Kinnison> Woohoo!
[01:30] <Kinnison> I *would* teach him how to make a mirror; but he lacks any webspace of use
[01:32] <enrico> ChrisH: hey!
[01:33] <Kinnison> Burgundavia_: You want Pepperfish hosting. Mmmmm Pepperfish
[01:34] <enrico> Kinnison: pepperfish?
[01:36] <Burgundavia_> that is Kinnison's hosting company
[01:37] <enrico> oh, cool!  Does he give out free hosting? :)
[01:37] <Kinnison> No :-)
[01:53] <plovs_work> hi guys, sorry for being away, work is really work sometimes
[01:54] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, welcome to license-hell
[01:54] <jiyuu0> ya
[01:54] <jiyuu0> so long to read
[01:54] <jiyuu0> and confusing
[01:54] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, and what you wrote is still not free enough, i'm afraid
[01:55] <jiyuu0> wow
[01:55] <jiyuu0> maybe i'll take it out... no license
[01:55] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, no go, you need some sort of license :-)
[01:56] <jiyuu0> sigh
[01:56] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, but we can work something out
[01:56] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, now you know where all the lawyer jokes coe from
[01:56] <plovs_work> come from
[01:56] <plovs_work> it's all their fault
[01:56] <jiyuu0> haha
[01:57] <jiyuu0> i think i'll just put whatever i've modified today
[01:57] <jiyuu0> then later wait for ppl to suggest
[01:57] <jiyuu0> at least better than my previous disclaimer
[01:57] <enrico> plovs_work: hi!  Are you back to work already?
[01:57] <enrico> what is the license problem?
[01:57] <plovs_work> enrico, hi! yes back at work, how is Taiwan?
[01:58] <plovs_work> enrico, jiyuu0 is trying to find a license for his work, without being beaten up
[01:58] <enrico> plovs_work: quite nice!  Very warm, cheap laptops (I finally got a new one)
[01:58] <plovs_work> enrico, about time :-)
[01:58] <enrico> plovs_work: what are the requirements?  GFDL?  Some free version of CreativeCommons?
[01:58] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, enrico knows more about licenses then most of us
[01:59] <jiyuu0> plovs_work, yes... givin but still got crusify
[01:59] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, that is license-hell for you, for fun say GFDL is not free on #debian-legal
[02:00] <jiyuu0> how can free not free
[02:00] <jiyuu0> some ppl just like to debate
[02:00] <enrico> debian-legal is generally a bit of a mess
[02:00] <plovs_work> enrico, what is a good license for docs?
[02:00] <plovs_work> enrico, and why?
[02:00] <enrico> however, it may be that Debian and FSF sort the mess and something will be solved
[02:01] <plovs_work> enrico, i think they will, it is really knit-picking they are doing atm
[02:01] <enrico> plovs_work: a good license depends on what you want to do with it
[02:02] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, so what do you want to do with it?
[02:02] <plovs_work> what are your requirements?
[02:02] <jiyuu0> give it away for free... do whatever u like.. give some credit... and not use for commercial
[02:03] <plovs_work> enrico, it is about http://ubuntuguide.org/ btw
[02:03] <plovs_work> enrico, could we use material license under such a license?
[02:04] <plovs_work> enrico, i would like to use the material if all parties agree, it is really good
[02:04] <Burgundavia_> If it is non-commercial, can we still include that in our stuff?
[02:04] <plovs_work> Burgundavia_, still in Spain?
[02:04] <Burgundavia_> yep
[02:05] <Burgundavia_> I don't know if you caught it, but I am actively working on the quick guide on my machine
[02:06] <jiyuu0> Burgundavia_, wuld non-commercial be an issue?
[02:06] <enrico> jiyuu0: uh, non commercial is quite a requirement.  For example, GFDL allows commercial redistribution (that is, selling it) as long as when you buy it, it is still free software (that is, you can modify it, sell it, give it away and so on)
[02:06] <Burgundavia_> I don't know
[02:07] <Burgundavia_> I will go find a Canonical person and clear it
[02:07] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, for example if we would put it on the cd, we want to be able to sell the cd
[02:07] <jiyuu0> enrico, so if they take it... just change the name... print it and sell... it's ok?
[02:07] <Burgundavia_> jiyuu0, and they give you credit also
[02:08] <jiyuu0> plovs_work, but ubuntu going to be free right?
[02:08] <Burgundavia_> That is how about 5-10 years ago all those guides came out that that were basically just tldp stuff glued together
[02:08] <plovs_work> enrico, gfdl does not require credit does it?
[02:08] <enrico> jiyuu0: if they take it, change the title, print it and sell it it's ok as long as what they print and sell is still free (that is, when you buy you can then modify, print, sell, give away...)
[02:08] <enrico> jiyuu0: however, they can't take your name away from it (that is even illegal in many countries, no matter what the license says)
[02:08] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, it is freem you can download it, but it is ok to sell the disc as well
[02:09] <jiyuu0> ic
[02:09] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, afaik the stuff we write is or will be under gfdl (right enrico?)
[02:09] <Kinnison> GPL *please*
[02:09] <jiyuu0> i think i'll follow the license u guys use
[02:10] <jiyuu0> less headache
[02:10] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, i am sorry for the trouble, but that is the world we live in...
[02:10] <enrico> plovs_work: he can decide.  I think GPL would be nice.
[02:10] <plovs_work> enrico, what is the difference between GPL and GFDL?
[02:11] <plovs_work> enrico, for simple people like me? with short words?
[02:11] <enrico> jiyuu0: GPL says that the work should come with its source code, so if you generate the HTML from some other file, you should also distribute the sources
[02:11] <plovs_work> Burgundavia_, could i get your stuff from somewhere to check it out?
[02:12] <jiyuu0> but gpl only for software right... no doc
[02:12] <plovs_work> enrico, eg the docbook file i am writing already
[02:12] <enrico> jiyuu0: GFDL is still a bit messy now, in that it allows some parts to be unmodifiable
[02:12] <jiyuu0> and the html is the whole source code
[02:13] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, at least you get to meet lots of nteristing folk :-)
[02:14] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, make is not a lawyer afaik, besides he's a funny guy
[02:15] <jiyuu0> make?
[02:15] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, mako
[02:16] <enrico> jiyuu0: I think plovs_work scared you a bit, though
[02:16] <enrico> mako isn't responding now unfortunately
[02:17] <jiyuu0> ok...
[02:17] <lulu> jiyuu0: Hiya! I'm not a license lawyer. We need to update the website with our documentation license = GFDL. We have decided on this as Canonical is a commercial company  and we sponsor Ubuntu. 
[02:17] <jiyuu0> i just don't want to make other ppl / myself in trouble because of the guide...
[02:17] <enrico> I know GPL very well, something of Creative Commons, but not much of GFDL except that it's still a bit messy
[02:18] <lulu> We understand that there are invarient sections and we ask that as these are contentious, they are not included. However, you are entitled to license your work under any license you choose. You may have taken work from the wiki and mailing lists. Mailing list doc are copyright by their owner I understand. Wiki work is copyright by the owner and people assign copyright to Canonical so we can use work to help Ubuntu.
[02:18] <mako> hey there
[02:18] <Burgundavia_> also remember that CCbyA is not compatible with GFDL
[02:18] <Kinnison> Burgundavia_: If you need it I can always set you up a space to put your bazaar archive mirror for others to work with
[02:18] <enrico> mako: !
[02:18] <mako> enrico: hey there
[02:18] <enrico> mako: welcome!
[02:19] <enrico> mako: plovs_work asked about the difference between GPL and GFDL
[02:19] <mako> alright.. the GFDL is designe specifically for documentation and the GPL refers particularly to computer programs
[02:20] <mako> but additionally, RMS believes that the two should be treated differently
[02:20] <jiyuu0> lulu, but if my work is taken from elsewhere... like previous research on fedora/other distro... how does that count?
[02:20] <mako> both have copyleft style parts
[02:20] <jiyuu0> it's not exactly from wiki and mailing list here...
[02:20] <mako> the GPL is more simple and portable but it refers to things like binaries versus, source, etc etc which don't apply cleanly to the world of documentation
[02:21] <mako> the GFDL is much younger and more controversial
[02:21] <plovs_work> mako, is it possible to license and the later change it to something else?
[02:21] <mako> it allows for invariant, non-removeable sections (which are limited to "off topic" primarily non-technical bits in teh text of the license but are often not described that way)
[02:22] <Burgundavia_> jiyuu0, The simplest thing to remember is that if you are original creator, you can relicense at will. If you are not, you can only use under the license granted
[02:22] <mako> in addition to invarient non-removeable front covertexts, back-covertexts
[02:22] <mako> dedications, acknolwedgements
[02:22] <mako> and invarient removeable endorsements
[02:22] <lulu> jiyuu0: what you take from elsewhere remains under the license it was created under.
[02:22] <mako> it also contains a number of issue which are more commonly described as "bugs" in the license
[02:22] <jiyuu0> Burgundavia_, but u talking about some command and stuff
[02:22] <Burgundavia_> In addition, if there is no licence explicitly given, the work remain copyright, and you cannot use it
[02:22] <jiyuu0> so it's hard to justify where it's from
[02:22] <jiyuu0> it could be from friend
[02:22] <mako> including one part which some people have interpreted to mean that encryption or even compression of GFDL documents might be in violation of the license
[02:22] <jiyuu0> or here and there...
[02:23] <mako> it's very clear that this is not the intention, and rms has said he would want to fix this
[02:23] <Burgundavia_> jiyuu0, A statement like "rm -rf" cannot be copyright, but "Using rm -rf while root at / is not recommonded" is
[02:23] <mako> but for a number of political reason, teh FSF has been very slow to release a new draft of the license -- even to solve the "bugs".. software is (and should be) a higher priority for them
[02:23] <jiyuu0> lulu, elsewhere could be own research... from ppl, books, internet
[02:23] <mako> plovs_work: the copyright holder of a work can relicense a work
[02:24] <jiyuu0> Burgundavia_, but if taken from different resource with diff license... how?
[02:24] <mako> plovs_work: but they can't change the of texts which they have already distributed under any free software license
[02:24] <Burgundavia_> jiyuu0, It is better to be safe than sorry, as companies (ie Canonical) usually make better targets
[02:24] <mako> plovs_work: things get complicated when you have many contributors to a single project
[02:24] <plovs_work> mako, ok, thanks
[02:25] <jiyuu0> Burgundavia_, sigh... headache... really confused
[02:25] <mako> plovs_work: because it would mean taht you either need to find all contributs to relicense (and get them to consent) or you need to have *signed* copyright assignements
[02:25] <Burgundavia_> jiyuu0, Yes, copyright sucks
[02:25] <mako> plovs_work: this is what the FSF does. if you want to contribute to an fsf project.. you fax them a signed copyright assignment
[02:25] <jiyuu0> mako, would you mind lookin at http://ubuntuguide.org and suggest a proper license
[02:26] <mako> jiyuu0: i have seen it
[02:26] <jiyuu0> mako, info there are not taken 100% from ubuntu wiki
[02:26] <jiyuu0> but a mix from here and there
[02:26] <mako> one problem with the GFDL is that is basically incompatible with *every* other license
[02:26] <enrico> I suggest you slow down the discussion a bit, before jiyuu0 gets a headache...
[02:26] <ChrisH> Too late for me already. :)
[02:26] <jiyuu0> enrico, thanks... tension with these issues
[02:27] <Burgundavia_> plovs_work, Kinnison is going to set me up a public mirror after the meeting
[02:27] <plovs_work> jiyuu0, sorry for the trouble, and i *still* think your doc is great
[02:27] <mako> jiyuu0: it depends on what you want.. if you want debian to be able to include it, something like the GPL or a public domain dedication or a BSD style license would be a good idee
[02:27] <plovs_work> Burgundavia_, who is Kinnison? do i know him? (who am i? do i really exist? ...)
[02:28] <jiyuu0> mako, so meaning GPL is the standard... with less problem
[02:28] <jiyuu0> compared to others
[02:28] <mako> jiyuu0: i personally use CC licenses.. usually the CC version 1.0 sharealike or the new cc-attrib-sharelike.. although the new licenses are not debian compatible
[02:28] <Burgundavia_> plovs_work, Kinnison =  Daniel Silverstone
[02:28] <mako> jiyuu0: well, it's a software license.. and it doesn't require attribution, if this is something that you want
[02:28] <ChrisH> plovs_work: Haven't you been to the Marina with us? :) Kinnison was the guy besides my wife.
[02:29] <plovs_work> i was, you have a photo?
[02:29] <ChrisH> plovs_work: All his photos suck. And I didn't take one of him.
[02:29] <jiyuu0> mako, so i'll go for GPL then
[02:29] <jiyuu0> if that solves the problem
[02:29] <plovs_work> ChrisH, ok, got it already, sorry, old age setting in...
[02:31] <ChrisH> plovs_work: John seems to be confused about the quick guide...
[02:31] <mako> jiyuu0: right.. now if you've used pieces from the wiki, those bits are copyright the author
[02:31] <jiyuu0> and...
[02:31] <jiyuu0> have to credit em?
[02:31] <plovs_work> ChrisH, i can do a write-up to the list
[02:32] <mako> jiyuu0: technically, you have to get the permission for hte authors
[02:33] <jiyuu0> that is not somthing easy... i have to do reverse engineering
[02:33] <mako> jiyuu0: it's very difficult
[02:33] <jiyuu0> true
[02:33] <mako> jiyuu0: i mean, go ahead adn put your document under the license of your choice
[02:33] <ChrisH> plovs_work: Very good. We should coordinate work on the nutshell thingy (the "6000 words" one), too.
[02:34] <plovs_work> Burgundavia_, could you send me what you have by mail?
[02:34] <plovs_work> brb
[02:35] <Kinnison> Burgundavia_: once I've sorted you out with a mirror for your archive; I'll take you through what is needed for others to work with you and then you can write a wikipage for it
[02:36] <enrico> mako: what would it take to make it so that everything in the wiki is under a free license?
[02:37] <enrico> mako: putting notices in the edit pages?
[02:37] <mako> that is what other people do
[02:37] <enrico> mako: could we do it as well?
[02:37] <mako> that is what, for example, wikipedia does
[02:37] <mako> yes, we could do it
[02:38] <mako> if you forsee enforcement of the license though, i seriously doubt this will be enough
[02:38] <lulu> enrico: we were going to put it in the legal page with all the legal stuff. Do you think we need it on every page?
[02:38] <enrico> mako: I think we shuold, since we intend the wiki to be a scrapbook for bigger documentation
[02:38] <enrico> lulu: in the "edit page" page for sure
[02:38] <mako> the FSF requires signed copyright assignements from every significant contributor to a gnu project
[02:38] <enrico> mako: oh, annoying
[02:40] <lulu> enrico: edit page = good idea.
[02:41] <mako> lulu: yes
[02:41] <mako> enrico: yeah, this is why people don't do it
[02:41] <mako> really, the biggest problem i forsee is having lots of documents that you want merge under incompatible licenses
[02:42] <mako> quite honestly, i don't see consensus forming around the GFDL for a number of reasons
[02:42] <mako> but there is a lot of existing technical and free software documentation under the GFDL
[02:43] <mako> but if we were to merge most of it, it would require bringing in invarient nonremoveable sections and printing things like "A GNU Manual" on the cover of any books and the address of the FSF on the back
[03:10] <plovs_work> Kinnison, will this mirror be svn, arch or ftp?
[03:10] <Kinnison> it'll be a bazaar mirror
[03:10] <Kinnison> over ftp
[03:10] <Kinnison> or http
[03:10] <plovs_work> Kinnison, but we might use baz as well?
[03:11] <Kinnison> Indeed. Bazaar is the right way (tm)
[03:11] <plovs_work> Kinnison, thanks, cool
[03:13] <Kinnison> If people need bazaar help, lifeless here is the project lead
[03:14] <ChrisH> lifeless: Hey... glad to have someone who answers to stupid questions. :)
[03:14] <lifeless> :)
[03:14] <plovs_work> lifeless, we want zsh command-line completion for baz ... please?
[03:15] <ChrisH> First we probably need some documentation on baz (Wiki Quickstart page)
[03:15] <plovs_work> ChrisH, spoilsport
[03:16] <lifeless> so, there is a wiki, and we're starting on doco at the moment.
[03:16] <ChrisH> Very good, Sir.
[03:17] <lifeless> for zeesh, someone could port the tla completions :)
[03:17] <lifeless> I'm not a zeesher.
[03:21] <Burgundavia_> back
[03:22] <mako> Burgundavia_: what were your concerns with using the GPL for commerciail publications?
[03:22] <mako> Burgundavia_: the GPL does not bar commercial distributrion of software and would not bar commercial distribution of documentation either
[03:22] <Burgundavia_> ture
[03:22] <Burgundavia_> true
[03:23] <Burgundavia_> No, my concern was not around the GPL
[03:23] <mako> Burgundavia_: what was it with?
[03:23] <mako> i guess i didn't really follow it
[03:23] <Burgundavia_> My concern was around the current license of jiyuu0's text says non-commercial only
[03:23] <mako> Burgundavia_: oh, right
[03:23] <jiyuu0> i can remove it
[03:24] <mako> well, it sounds like jiyuu0 is interested in fixing that
[03:24] <mako> jiyuu0: lets wait a day or two and try to find the Right license
[03:24] <mako> jiyuu0: i like the idea of using CC-BY-SA myself
[03:24] <mako> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/
[03:25] <mako> i think it's free enough that it is in the spirit (and maybe even letter) of free software licenses but ensures that attribution is kept (which the GFDL does) and that it is copyleft (that the GFDL does) almost any of the parts people find problematic
[03:25] <mako> sorry without almost any of the parts taht people find problematic
[03:26] <mako> that page is not the text of the license, althought it has a link.. but is a good human readable summary
[03:26] <Burgundavia_> but that leaves us out in the cold as we use GFDL does it not?
[03:26] <mako> Burgundavia_: define we? :)
[03:26] <mako> Burgundavia_: i'm going to talk to mark shuttleworth about the canonical produce documentation
[03:26] <Burgundavia_> the doc team
[03:27] <Burgundavia_> ok
[03:27] <mako> but almost everyone on the docteam can use whatever license they choose
[03:27] <mako> because they don't work for canonical
[03:27] <mako> and people, like jiyuu0 and many others.. are not particularly happy about the GFDL
[03:27] <enrico> mako: well, mark already decided on GFDL some time ago
[03:28] <jiyuu0> actually i have no issues
[03:28] <Burgundavia_> I am not a huge fan of the GFDL either
[03:28] <mako> i'm not either actually, but since i work for canonical it doesn't matter :)
[03:28] <jiyuu0> only scared ppl have issue on me
[03:28] <mako> jiyuu0: well, there are reasons to be concerned by the GFDL
[03:28] <mako> jiyuu0: at least the current draft
[03:28] <mako> enrico: lulu has asked me to talk to mark about this
[03:28] <mako> enrico: because it is a topic that keeps coming up on the doc list and seems to be keeping people from doing work and moving forward
[03:29] <mako> enrico: do you think moving to a non-gfdl documentation license would be an improvement?
[03:29] <mako> i'm a little worried because evidently, many people in wikipedia are regretting their decisions
[03:29] <Burgundavia_> When WP was started CC did not exist
[03:29] <mako> but because they do not track copyright holders, they can't relicense
[03:30] <Burgundavia_> otherwise they would probably have gone with it
[03:30] <mako> CC licenses are (a) international (b) written by lawyers (c) more tested and more used (d) more simple (to enfforce, to understand, to use)
[03:31] <mako> gfdl has optional front cover texts, back cover texts, invarient sections, acknowledgements, dedications, endorsements and additional bits that come to effect when you're copying in quantity
[03:31] <mako> it's complex :)
[03:32] <Burgundavia_> GFDL makes it almost impossible to small printed documents, as you need to print a whole crapload of hte GFDL
[03:32] <mako> Burgundavia_: yes
[03:32] <mako> Burgundavia_: CC licenses allow you to provide a URI
[03:32] <mako> *and* CC documents are international
[03:33] <mako> there are versions updated to the language and law of a dozen or so countries
[03:33] <mako> while the GFDL is US only
[03:33] <mako> i mean, it might o
[03:33] <mako> work other places too.. but that wasn't a goal
[03:33] <Burgundavia_> but all this wonderful talk is just hotair unless we can get Mark to go along
[03:33] <mako> Burgundavia_: i can talk to mark
[03:34] <mako> but i would like to be able to say taht i'm representing teh view of more than myself :)
[03:34] <mako> enrico: what do you think?
[03:34] <mako> enrico: i know one of your concerns was with debian compatibilituy
[03:34] <Burgundavia_> I would go with CCbySA if we can
[03:35] <mako> enrico: and quite honestly, i don't know a single up-to-date documentation license taht debian-legal likes
[03:35] <mako> enrico: but i suspect that if someoen pushed a gr, the CC-bysa would pass
[03:35] <Burgundavia_> so pretty much debian compatiablity is a no go anyway
[03:35] <mako> unless you want to use a sofware license for documentation.. or a public domain dedication
[03:36] <mako> which is not necessarily bad
[03:36] <enrico> mako: I don't know much about Debian, but I think that debian's rebuttal of it made many people wary
[03:36] <mako> although i prefer copyleft licenses myself
[03:36] <mako> enrico: of the GFDL or of the CC-bysa
[03:36] <mako> ?
[03:36] <plovs_work> mako, i would like as free as possible, but debian-compatible as well
[03:36] <enrico> I do prefer copyleft licenses
[03:36] <enrico> Of the GFDL, because it made much more noise
[03:36] <enrico> what was wrong with the CC-bysa?
[03:36] <mako> enrico: unless you use a pre 2.0 CC (i.e, out of date), there are no copyleft documentation licenses i know of
[03:37] <mako> enrico: very bizarre hair splitting things
[03:37] <enrico> (besides the unspellable name, and probably that they've taken it out)
[03:38] <enrico> the only concern about GFDL was that it can't go in Debian main (so far)
[03:38] <mako> http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/07/msg01193.html
[03:38] <mako> but i strongly disagree with most of that interpretation
[03:39] <mako> i think that "
[03:39] <mako> If this is the case, private distribution of the work would seem to be
[03:39] <mako> forbidden. Along with obvious technological measures that control access,
[03:39] <mako> such as a firewall on a LAN or a virtual private network (VPN), distributing
[03:39] <mako> using encryption (such as Secure Sockets Layer (SSL)) would appear to be
[03:39] <mako> prohibited."
[03:39] <mako> that is a pretty ridiculous interpretation
[03:39] <mako> it's CLEAR to me that they're not banning private distribution :)
[03:39] <mako> intent matters in law and -legal doesn't seem to realize that
[03:40] <enrico> if you don't take intents into consideration when checking laws, no laws will ever be sane
[03:41] <enrico> one could add an explicit statement to please debian-legal, though, but that's a bit arrogant since debian-legal doesn't appear to be sane here
[03:41] <enrico> BTW, how come CC took that license out?
[03:46] <mako> because 95+% of people who used CC licenses used attribution :)
[03:47] <mako> they said they would add them back if there was a major outcry
[03:47] <mako> i emailed them and ask them to create a pure SA license
[03:47] <mako> but i guess other people did not
[04:05] <enrico> mako: let debian-legal do it
[04:05] <Burgundavia_> back again
[04:05] <enrico> or we can plea for CC-ification of a fixed GFDL like it happened with GPL
[04:05] <Burgundavia_> can I force an absolute path for loading of images in docbook format?
[04:09] <ChrisH> Burgundavia_: In theory: yes. But if someone decides to put the guide into somewhere different than / (which could easily happen on the ubuntulinux.org web site as well) then the image is broken.
[04:10] <Burgundavia_> ok, so the best is the distribute the image with the guide then?
[04:15] <ChrisH> We need to do that anyway.
[04:28] <Burgundavia_> ok
[05:05] <Burgundavia_> I have done a mock up of graphical style of showing how to use an application. I also think we can release it to translators as an svg, so they can just import the new screenshot and change the text, then reexport the png
[05:05] <Burgundavia_> what do people think?
[05:34] <enrico> Burgundavia_: I didn't quite get what you mean
[05:34] <enrico> Burgundavia_: :(
[05:35] <Burgundavia_> Ok, I think we should use screenshots
[05:36] <Burgundavia_> however, we should also have that screenshot with help messages showing what buttons do what
[05:36] <Burgundavia_> However, thus it makes hard to translate
[05:37] <Burgundavia_> my solution, keep the screenshot-with-explaination in svg format for us, and exported to png for the released document
[05:37] <Burgundavia_> thus, the translators can translate the svg and get a new screenshot and reexport
[05:37] <Burgundavia_> do you understand that?
[05:50] <enrico> ah, ok.  But how do you make a SVG screenshot?
[05:50] <enrico> I'd love to be able to make SVG screenshots, actually
[05:52] <Burgundavia_> no svg screenshot, png screenshot
[05:52] <Burgundavia_> using gimp
[05:53] <Burgundavia_> the new license is CCbySA2.0
[05:54] <mako> hey guys, i just talked to mark
[05:54] <enrico> Burgundavia_: ah, screenshot-with-explanation!  Now I get it
[05:54] <mako> and he says that CCbysa is good to guy if there's consensus that it's a better license
[05:54] <mako> good to go even
[05:55] <mako> :)
[05:55] <mako> so, it's up to the team
[05:55] <mako> if there's consensus that CCbySA is a bettter choice, i can update the text and hook it up
[05:55] <enrico> Burgundavia_: can't it be done directly with captions inside docbook?  Or it's one of those cool explanations that circle the things and tell what they are?  In that case, yes, SVG would be very cool!
[05:55] <enrico> mako: wasnt CCbySA outdated?
[05:56] <Burgundavia_> yes, it circles each description
[05:56] <enrico> mako: I mean, not in 2.0?
[05:56] <Burgundavia_> enrico, yes by 2.0
[05:56] <mako> no.. CC-SA was outdated
[05:56] <mako> plain old sa is only a 1.0 license
[05:56] <enrico> so, CC did a 2.0 free license after all?
[05:56] <mako> by-sa is both a 1.0 anda  2.0 license
[05:56] <enrico> and is CCbySA free?  
[05:56] <enrico> and is CCbySA fine for Debian?
[05:57] <lulu> mako: thanks for getting that initiated - so does everyone know what the CC-BY-SA license is and how it's different?
[05:57] <mako> debian legal said that *all* cc 2.0 licenses. perhaps 1.0 licenses are non-free
[05:57] <mako> for what are, in my opinion, questionable reasoning
[05:57] <mako> they claimed that the license as written blocked private distribution
[05:58] <mako> which is not a sane interpretation of the license IMHO and very clearly not the intent of the license
[05:58] <enrico> lulu: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/
[05:58] <sivang> HI all
[05:58] <mako> enrico: yes
[05:58] <sivang> yo mako
[05:58] <sivang> :)
[05:58] <mako> sivang: home safe? :)
[05:58] <enrico> sivang: hi!
[05:59] <sivang> yeah, but mataro home sick :)
[05:59] <mako> enrico: OT: are you in taiwan?
[05:59] <enrico> mako: yes, and about to go to bed
[05:59] <enrico> mako: and with a *new laptop*
[05:59] <sivang> I really miss the conference..and  all the guys..
[05:59] <lulu> enrico: yes - thanks! :o) Mako sent it to me earlier - but others may not know...  http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ 
[05:59] <sivang> enrico : congretulations!
[05:59] <sivang> hi lulu!
[06:00] <mako> enrico: read that license.. i think it's in the spirit of free software
[06:00] <mako> enrico: i've also had CC employees tell me they were interested  din working with us to make their licesne DFSG free
[06:00] <lulu> sivang: welcome back.! Ofer asked me for your email today, so he should be in touch soon.
[06:00] <mako> enrico: and there are *no* documentation licenses that -legal has approved
[06:00] <mako> enrico: i think we need to read teh license, read legals criticism, and then make our move
[06:01] <sivang> lulu : cool, thanks , I only now reached a machine so I will probably get those email by now.
[06:01] <mako> enrico: -legal has said they would not approve the GPL
[06:01] <Burgundavia_> When I import into Inkscape, I lose resolution, it is very annoying
[06:01] <mako> enrico: i'm confident that if/when someone pushese a gr on these licenses, we will be able to get this past the developers
[06:01] <mako> ALSO, these licenses are all "ported" to other languages and legal systems
[06:02] <mako> so you can get the italian version updated to italian language and law.. and germany, brazil, japan, etc etc
[06:02] <mako> i have some serious criticism with the CC project. but they make very good licenses :)
[06:02] <enrico> mako: yes, and CC is well known as well
[06:03] <mako> and widely used
[06:03] <enrico> for me, it's cool stuff.  Would you like to post to ubuntu-doc a summary of your talk with mark and its outcome?
[06:03] <mako> i'm comfortable going ahead of debian-legal with this licensees although i was not with the GFDL
[06:03] <enrico> (I'm on my way to the bed)
[06:03] <mako> enrico: yes.. it's up to the team ultimately
[06:03] <mako> enrico: i'll do that
[06:05] <lulu> mako: it will be great to resolve this for Ubuntu asap. Lets' aim to have it finalised before the end of the week if possible. well done :o)
[06:07] <enrico> mako: so this thing could be brought up to debian-legal to reopen a discussion to rechallenge the hair-splitting maybe
[06:07] <enrico> but I have no head to think about it now
[06:07] <enrico> 01:07 here
[06:07] <mako> yeah, lets talk about legal another day
[06:07] <enrico> I mean, people are generally pissed about -legal, so it might come the time in which reopening discussions leads to toasting the original unreasonable things
[06:07] <mako> it will be Mako Vs. The Natives
[06:08] <mako> and for political reasons regarding to the GFDL negotiations, i have been hesitant to challenge people on that list
[06:08] <mako> becuase they immediately say "you can't represent debian for the gfdl!" as soon as they see i disagree with any of them on anything
[06:08] <enrico> mako: I suggest some teaming up with others, just not to be you against all
[06:09] <mako> well that doesn't mitigate the second issue
[06:19] <Burgundavia_> never mind, I can put the svg in a file and link it to the docbook
[06:47] <Burgundavia_> I got svg to display in yelp, but pngs through svg look butt ugly
[06:56] <Kinnison> I know that feeling :-(
[06:59] <Burgundavia_> Kinnison, it works in greyscale
[07:01] <Kinnison> Burgundavia_: Smells like whatever renderer yelp is using is moosed then
[07:42] <sivang> Kinnision : daniel!
[07:43] <sivang> :)
[07:45] <Kinnison> sivang: HI
[07:52] <Burgundavia_> it looks pretty slick
[07:52] <Burgundavia_> Kinnison, are you downstairs yet?
[07:53] <sivang> Kinnision : since when you are hanging on the doc team channel? :)
[07:53] <Kinnison> Burgundavia_: yep
[07:53] <sivang> Burgundavia_ : hey cori, what's up?
[07:53] <Kinnison> sivang: so you can say hi to me
[07:53] <Kinnison> sivang: and I'm stalking Burgundavia_ for extra fun
[07:53] <sivang> heheh
[07:53] <sivang> :)
[07:54] <sivang> no more mao for me :(
[07:55] <Kinnison> Until you come again
[07:55] <Kinnison> I'll need that long to train corey up. He can't remember how 7s work
[07:56] <sivang> Will you be teaching him through IRC?
[07:56] <Burgundavia_> hey!!!
[07:56] <Kinnison> he's here
[07:56] <Kinnison> well, over <--- there
[07:57] <sivang> ah right , Burgundavia_  untill when are you staying in the conference?
[07:57] <Burgundavia_> the very end
[07:58] <Burgundavia_> plus 2 days
[07:58] <sivang> ah that's cool!
[07:59] <sivang> why more 2 days?
[07:59] <sivang> are you going to tour mataro/barcelona in the remanining wones?
[07:59] <sivang> ones
[08:05] <Burgundavia_> mako, get daff for me
[08:05] <Kinnison> Burgundavia_: daff?
[08:06] <Kinnison> Burgundavia_: it's 'daf' dearie
[08:13] <Burgundavia_> hey plovs, I got svg working in yelp, but colour images don't work
[08:13] <plovs> #ok
[08:14] <plovs> and b/w images?
[08:14] <Burgundavia_> yep, works fine
[08:14] <Burgundavia_> so, we ship b/w until the yelp people get off their butt
[08:14] <plovs> weird, must be a bug
[08:14] <Burgundavia_> ya
[08:14] <plovs> colour works ok here
[08:14] <plovs> on hoary
[08:14] <plovs> on warty also btw
[08:14] <Burgundavia_> png inside svg inside docbook in yelp?
[08:14] <Kinnison> Burgundavia_: right; we need to get your archive signed
[08:15] <Kinnison> Burgundavia_: How much have you committed to it?
[08:18] <Burgundavia_> a bunch
[08:19] <Burgundavia_> ah, I may not have committed
[08:19] <Kinnison> heh
[08:19] <Kinnison> right; we can do it cleanly
[08:29] <Burgundavia_> ya, committed
[10:50] <ChrisH> Where was the Moin markup page on the Wiki again?