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| === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Tuesday 14 December 2004 at 1600 UTC: Technical Board meeting | ||
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| sabdfl | hey all | 05:00 |
|---|---|---|
| jdub | morning | 05:00 |
| sabdfl | ish | 05:00 |
| === mdz yawns reflexively | ||
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| === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Tuesday 14 December 2004 at 1600 UTC: Technical Board meeting -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda | ||
| === haggai bounces around like tiger | ||
| haggai | uh tigger | 05:01 |
| mdz | there rae no new agenda items | 05:01 |
| mdz | are | 05:01 |
| sabdfl | the wonderful thing about tiggers | 05:01 |
| mdz | is tiggers are wonderful things | 05:02 |
| sabdfl | is tigger are wonderful tings | 05:02 |
| jdub | aww so cute ;) | 05:02 |
| sabdfl | ... was trying to think of something rhyming with kubuntu :-) | 05:02 |
| jdub | sabdfl: ... ubuntu? | 05:02 |
| sabdfl | thatwuntoo | 05:02 |
| haggai | tiggerunto? | 05:02 |
| sabdfl | should we begin | 05:03 |
| sabdfl | nothing on the agenda | 05:03 |
| sabdfl | mdz, any other business? | 05:03 |
| jdub | there are two items on the agenda | 05:03 |
| jdub | - libnns-mdns | 05:03 |
| jdub | - language packs | 05:03 |
| jdub | (libnss-mdns) | 05:04 |
| sabdfl | ah right | 05:04 |
| mdz | sabdfl: none from me | 05:04 |
| sabdfl | that's howl right? | 05:04 |
| jdub | no | 05:04 |
| sabdfl | mdns? | 05:04 |
| mdz | language packs were discussed at the previous tech board meeting | 05:04 |
| mdz | that one should have been moved down to old business | 05:04 |
| jdub | mdns == multicast dns resolution (not part of howl, but related to zeroconf support) | 05:04 |
| mdz | there is no bullet point next to mdns | 05:04 |
| mdz | and therefore it is clearly invalid | 05:04 |
| jdub | haha | 05:04 |
| mdz | so the matter with mdns is that it wants to listen | 05:05 |
| sabdfl | mdz: might be worth pointing folks at the notes from the languagepak bof at the conf | 05:05 |
| jdub | it doesn't. | 05:05 |
| jdub | mdnsresponder from howl does | 05:05 |
| jdub | libnss-mdns is just a resolver | 05:05 |
| mdz | http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LanguagePacksBOF | 05:05 |
| jdub | you punted it to tech board because you felt that nss modules were dangerous | 05:05 |
| mdz | so is the proposal just to add libnss-mdns to supported? | 05:05 |
| jdub | to desktop | 05:06 |
| mdz | or to add it to the default nsswitch configuration? | 05:06 |
| jdub | yeah, and the default configuration | 05:06 |
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| jdub | we have the option between an nss module or a glibc patch. personally, i think the nss option is slightly saner (and easy to disable). :-) | 05:06 |
| jdub | i'm not really clear on your POV about nss module fear though | 05:07 |
| sabdfl | i've no preference | 05:07 |
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| mdz | it's no scarier than a glibc patch | 05:07 |
| mdz | but glibc patches are, well, SCARY | 05:07 |
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| mdz | what does it buy us in terms of functionality? | 05:08 |
| === Keybuk sneaks in :p | ||
| mdz | does it let applications discover mdns things? | 05:08 |
| lamont_r | Keybuk: 20 pushups. | 05:08 |
| sabdfl | is it worth having a mataro session on mdns / zeroconf in general? | 05:08 |
| jdub | mdz: no, it just resolves .local names | 05:09 |
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| jdub | sabdfl: potentially, i punted it because it was pretty airy-fairy. | 05:09 |
| sabdfl | it seems zeroconf / rendesvous has big potential, but also brings risks | 05:09 |
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| mdz | if it's vaporous, should we be adding it to the default code path for every application which uses DNS? | 05:09 |
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| jdub | libnss-mdns -> vaporous? | 05:10 |
| sabdfl | apple is pushing rendesvous pretty hard, is anything happening in the windows world about it? | 05:10 |
| sabdfl | if it's going to be widely supported and standard, then we will need to find a sane way to integrate it | 05:10 |
| mdz | jdub: airy-fairy? | 05:10 |
| jdub | MS backed UPnP, but will probably stumble on zeroconf at some stage. | 05:10 |
| sabdfl | much like cups, smb browsing etc | 05:11 |
| jdub | mdz: oh, a single bof about "zeroconf" in general. | 05:11 |
| sabdfl | yes | 05:11 |
| jdub | sabdfl: the big question, wrt risk, is whether mdnsresponder listens by default | 05:11 |
| sabdfl | what about a single-check "turn it on" option? | 05:11 |
| haggai | if it's not really in wide use yet, I'd say turn it off for now | 05:11 |
| mdz | that's my preference | 05:11 |
| jdub | sabdfl: automatic answer is "no", but that makes it useless and non-zeroconf. :) | 05:11 |
| mdz | ("turn it on" option) | 05:11 |
| mdz | jdub: "oneconf" | 05:11 |
| jdub | given policy, me too. | 05:11 |
| jdub | uniconf! (.sf.net -> fear) | 05:12 |
| sabdfl | what about a way in the system in general for things to say "i need to do some conf, can we turn it on.... ok, done" | 05:12 |
| Keybuk | mobile-esque "Discoverable for 5 minutes" ? | 05:12 |
| pitti | sabdfl: we could also need this for cups browsing etc. | 05:12 |
| haggai | hmm. How about turn it on, if we get a zeroconf network config? | 05:12 |
| sabdfl | this is really something that's useful while the user is at the console, right? | 05:12 |
| mdz | cups browsing is broken by design | 05:12 |
| mdz | it should use zeroconf | 05:12 |
| jdub | rh are doing some good user-level cups / hal / howl integration | 05:12 |
| sabdfl | mdz: thereby deferring the problem? | 05:13 |
| sabdfl | "metadata!" | 05:13 |
| mdz | it reverses the problem | 05:13 |
| mdz | the cups server would need mdns-responder, but not clients | 05:13 |
| pitti | mdz: upstream is not going to change it | 05:13 |
| jdub | "who?" rather than "me!" | 05:13 |
| sabdfl | right | 05:13 |
| sabdfl | so it's more like dns | 05:13 |
| jdub | pitti: but it's fairly likely that everyone else will be using those patches. | 05:13 |
| mdz | yes | 05:13 |
| jdub | sabdfl: it, um, is dns. | 05:13 |
| sabdfl | is howl == zeroconf == libnss-mdns (client side)? | 05:14 |
| jdub | they're all related | 05:14 |
| jdub | zeroconf covers autoconfiguration of local link IP addresses and names, as well as dns-based service discovery | 05:15 |
| jdub | libnss-mdns is the resolver side of ip autoconfiguration | 05:15 |
| Keybuk | so zeroconf is "where are my printers" ? | 05:15 |
| jdub | howl is service discovery (uni and multicast, and publishing) | 05:15 |
| jdub | we're not doing ip autoconfiguration yet, but we can defer that for network manager, etc. | 05:15 |
| jdub | i should make a wiki page to explain all of this :) | 05:16 |
| mdz | yes, you should | 05:16 |
| sabdfl | what's the relationship between libnss-mdns and dhcp? | 05:16 |
| === jdub tomboys | ||
| jdub | sabdfl: nothing, really | 05:16 |
| sabdfl | ip autoconf? | 05:16 |
| mdz | libnss-mdns needs an IP to send from | 05:16 |
| jdub | ip autoconfiguraiton and dhcp are related in that they both dynamically assign ips | 05:16 |
| jdub | dhcp is server based, zcip (zeroconf ip) is local lan non routable, etc. | 05:16 |
| sabdfl | ok | 05:17 |
| sabdfl | so this would be useful if, say, three of us were sitting on a bus and just wanted to throw a wifi netowrk up together? | 05:17 |
| mdz | right | 05:17 |
| mdz | or if you were all at an Ubuntu conference and wanted to talk to each other | 05:17 |
| sabdfl | or on a plane to australia | 05:17 |
| jdub | sabdfl: yes | 05:17 |
| sabdfl | give it to me now! | 05:17 |
| jdub | sabdfl: like the ichat 'rendezvous' window | 05:17 |
| jdub | at a conference | 05:18 |
| mdz | I think the flight crew frown on ad-hoc wireless networks | 05:18 |
| === sivang was instructed to now use wifi/cd | ||
| jdub | flight crews always smile | 05:18 |
| sivang | *not | 05:18 |
| sivang | (while in air) | 05:18 |
| sabdfl | jdub: if you smile first | 05:18 |
| mdz | so the question is, should we integrate nss-mdns and start exercising it? | 05:18 |
| Keybuk | does libnss-mdns have an always-listening component? | 05:18 |
| jdub | Keybuk: no, it's an nss module only | 05:19 |
| mdz | is there anything planned for hoary which would actually use it? | 05:19 |
| jdub | just a resolver | 05:19 |
| mdz | (which would rely on it, I should sya) | 05:19 |
| mdz | say | 05:19 |
| Keybuk | so to discover things with it, you need a listener elsewhere on the network ? | 05:19 |
| jdub | mdz: "is there anything in hoary that relies on dns resolution?" | 05:19 |
| sabdfl | jdub: when you try to resolve, does it ping the network and listen for responses? | 05:19 |
| jdub | Keybuk: well, yeah - mdnsresponder automatically publishes the hostname | 05:19 |
| Keybuk | ah, so it's a dns responder -- and nothing to do with service discovery ? | 05:20 |
| jdub | sabdfl: i don't believe so, no. | 05:20 |
| sabdfl | what's the status of utopia / dbus stack that would let a user see a dialog giving the status of a howl discovery session happening at system level? | 05:20 |
| mdz | jdub: that is not the same thing and you know it :-P | 05:20 |
| jdub | Keybuk: yes, see above. | 05:20 |
| Keybuk | it's *literally* multicast dns | 05:20 |
| === Keybuk understands now | ||
| mdz | depending on where we put it in nsswitch.conf, it'll be queried in order with other name resolution services | 05:20 |
| jdub | sabdfl: i can't see why that would be desireable or useful | 05:21 |
| mdz | currently we just try /etc/hosts and then dns | 05:21 |
| pitti | sabdfl: right now it is not integrated in hal AFAIK | 05:21 |
| Keybuk | the nss equivalent of "Is there a Hugh Janus in the room? Telephone call for a Hugh Janus" | 05:21 |
| sabdfl | can that be used to redirect traffic? | 05:21 |
| mdz | yes | 05:21 |
| mdz | if we add it to the end, and you try to go to www.goggle.com, I can answer and send you somewhere, e.g. | 05:22 |
| sabdfl | nice | 05:22 |
| sabdfl | ok | 05:22 |
| mdz | adding it to the start would be, as jeff would say, BONG | 05:22 |
| sabdfl | dns says "nope" then mdns says "sure, try this one" | 05:22 |
| mdz | exactly | 05:22 |
| mdz | every single failed DNS request would try mdns as a fallback | 05:23 |
| jdub | only for .local | 05:23 |
| mdz | eh? | 05:23 |
| jdub | it wouldn't go looking for www.google.com with libnss-mdns | 05:24 |
| jdub | well, it would, but mdns would say no very quickly | 05:24 |
| jdub | as in, "not .local? kthxbye" | 05:24 |
| Keybuk | wouldn't we need to configure things to search .local then? | 05:24 |
| mdz | jdub: where is the code which does that bit? | 05:25 |
| jdub | ah, well, that's a separate issue :) | 05:25 |
| Keybuk | and then wouldn't it resolve www.google.com.local ? | 05:25 |
| haggai | so it's the dns equivalent of M$'s netbios? Flood your local network instead of having a sane DNS server? | 05:26 |
| mdz | it's somewhat less braindead in that it uses multicast rather than broadcast | 05:27 |
| crimsun | the difference being that at least mdns is explanable | 05:27 |
| mdz | it includes its own DNS implementation, cute | 05:27 |
| crimsun | not even MS engineers can really fathom out netbios | 05:27 |
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| mdz | Keybuk: it seems to be irrelevant | 05:28 |
| mdz | Keybuk: because jdub is full of shit about it only resolving .local :-P | 05:28 |
| jdub | heh | 05:28 |
| sabdfl | so, we really have to choose between pioneering and being conservative | 05:28 |
| mdz | that's easily fixable, though | 05:28 |
| sabdfl | i don't see the big win in breaking down this particular wall | 05:28 |
| jdub | so i think lennart meant it did it in svn, not the released version | 05:28 |
| jdub | but yeah, not a huge issue | 05:29 |
| Keybuk | if we do $zeroconf, we should to it in one big strategy-led punch; rather than in drips | 05:29 |
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| sabdfl | seems that ms, apple, others will battle out the usability issues, we can follow on this one | 05:29 |
| sabdfl | we can't pioneer on every front | 05:29 |
| jdub | we don't have to | 05:29 |
| jdub | supporting the standard is enough | 05:29 |
| jdub | as more stuff up the stack supports it, we win | 05:29 |
| haggai | you can do that without turning it on by default everywhere | 05:29 |
| sabdfl | "standard" is one thing, figuring out what normal sane regular behaviour is is quite different | 05:30 |
| mdz | add it to supported and write a ZeroConfHowto? | 05:30 |
| jdub | Keybuk: i don't think that's a problem | 05:30 |
| jdub | sabdfl: we know what that behaviour is | 05:30 |
| haggai | it would be nice to have a single knob that would turn on all the zeroconf bits | 05:30 |
| sabdfl | i don't think we do! | 05:30 |
| sabdfl | we don't know how it should integraqte with dns and that's pretty fundamental | 05:30 |
| jdub | 1) we should always have a local lan ip | 05:31 |
| jdub | 2) we should only mdns query for .local | 05:31 |
| jdub | 3) we shouldn't search on .local | 05:31 |
| Keybuk | why #1 ? | 05:31 |
| mdz | jdub: we already do #1 :-) | 05:31 |
| Keybuk | we do? | 05:31 |
| jdub | mdz: no we don't | 05:31 |
| mdz | "ip addr" sometime | 05:31 |
| sabdfl | m gut feel is it will take a while before there's clear "best practice" | 05:32 |
| jdub | mdz: that's inet6, not inet4 | 05:32 |
| sabdfl | and if we forge ahead now, we have to support upgrades and old behaviour etc | 05:32 |
| Keybuk | does libnss-mdns support ip6 networks? | 05:32 |
| jdub | we're really not forging ahead here | 05:32 |
| sabdfl | bluetooth, however, might be an easier point | 05:32 |
| jdub | windows does zcip, mac os x does zcip | 05:32 |
| sabdfl | do they do it in the same way? | 05:33 |
| sabdfl | always? | 05:33 |
| jdub | yes | 05:33 |
| sabdfl | so bring up a win box, and a ma, on the same network, and it interoperates? | 05:33 |
| jdub | (for #1) | 05:33 |
| mdz | http://files.zeroconf.org/draft-ietf-zeroconf-ipv4-linklocal.txt | 05:33 |
| mdz | "standard" | 05:33 |
| jdub | sabdfl: no, they both get zcips | 05:33 |
| jdub | well, you can ping each other | 05:33 |
| sabdfl | demonstrably? | 05:34 |
| jdub | that's the zeroconf ip part of the standard | 05:34 |
| jdub | as far as i've seen, yes | 05:34 |
| jdub | Keybuk: planned, but not fully implemented | 05:34 |
| mdz | zcip doesn't sound so scary | 05:34 |
| haggai | "Microsoft Windows 98 (and later) and Mac OS 8.5 (and later) already support this capability. This document standardizes usage," | 05:34 |
| haggai | so we're definately not leading | 05:34 |
| jdub | on zcip, no | 05:34 |
| jdub | the second point of resolving .local stuff is not exactly rocket science | 05:35 |
| mdz | BUGS | 05:35 |
| mdz | zcip currently assumes that the target interface is down and reconfig | 05:35 |
| mdz | ures it. The IETF draft seems to suggest using multihoming, which we | 05:35 |
| mdz | dont do yet. | 05:35 |
| mdz | that sounds problematic | 05:35 |
| jdub | os x already does it | 05:35 |
| jdub | zcip is one particular implementation | 05:35 |
| jdub | howl includes an implementation | 05:35 |
| Keybuk | so is libnss-mdns useful without a $zcip ? | 05:35 |
| jdub | Keybuk: yes | 05:35 |
| sabdfl | yes, this looks like mutual dhcp | 05:35 |
| Keybuk | if you get dhcp, chances are you get dns too | 05:35 |
| haggai | sabdfl: you say we can't forge ahead on all fronts. When you look at cross-OS stuff we are forging ahead on very little.. | 05:36 |
| mdz | Keybuk: mdns serves a different purpose | 05:36 |
| sabdfl | ok, have to head off to barcelona, enjoy | 05:36 |
| mdz | it lets me advertise something to you | 05:36 |
| mdz | rather than having the network admin add it to the DNS server | 05:36 |
| Keybuk | that's not what libnss-mdns looks up though, it just does name lookups ? | 05:37 |
| jdub | i think mdz's original concern, | 05:37 |
| jdub | new code in a very active codepath, | 05:37 |
| jdub | was probably the most relevant issue | 05:37 |
| jdub | Keybuk: yes | 05:37 |
| jdub | i'm also going to barcelona | 05:38 |
| Keybuk | but unless you have an IP, you can't do name lookups anyway | 05:38 |
| Keybuk | you need $fu to co-operate on IP and ensure "domain local" is the order of the day | 05:38 |
| jdub | Keybuk: "domain local" as in resolv.conf? | 05:39 |
| Keybuk | yeah | 05:39 |
| jdub | nah | 05:39 |
| Keybuk | or equiv | 05:39 |
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| jdub | ok, i think i'm going | 05:40 |
| mdz | me too | 05:41 |
| mdz | we'll defer mdns stuff until something interesting comes along | 05:41 |
| mdz | any urgent business before we adjourn? | 05:41 |
| mdz | adjourned, bye | 05:41 |
| mdz | thanks, everyone | 05:42 |
| Keybuk | "<mdz> kthxbye" | 05:42 |
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| Simira | http://www.simira.net/UbuntuWomen.html - My article about Ubuntu and women in open source | 05:49 |
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| Simira | hi lulu | 06:17 |
| Treenaks | Simira: there's a '\ ' in your name.. don't you mean a '/' ? | 06:39 |
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| Simira | oh no, not again... yes, thanks, Treenaks | 06:39 |
| Simira | so, there | 06:39 |
| Treenaks | Simira: oh, and s/Mataro/Matar/ :P | 06:40 |
| Simira | Treenaks: that looked to me like an A with a ~ and a 3 over :p | 06:41 |
| Treenaks | Simira: in which editor? | 06:41 |
| Treenaks | Simira: and are you using an UTF-8 locale? | 06:42 |
| Simira | in mIRC | 06:42 |
| Treenaks | mirc.. ah :) | 06:42 |
| Simira | :p | 06:43 |
| Treenaks | yes.. that's how an UTF-8 o-with-accent looks if you try to parse it as Latin1 | 06:43 |
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