=== mgedmin [~mg@213.151.107.243] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Simira [rpGirl@m146i.studby.ntnu.no] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lamont_r [~lamont@213.151.107.243] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lamont_r [~lamont@213.151.107.243] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mdz [~mdz@213.151.107.243] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mvo [~egon@213.151.107.243] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === haggai [~halls@i-83-67-20-196.freedom2surf.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jdub [~jdub@213.151.107.243] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Tuesday 14 December 2004 at 1600 UTC: Technical Board meeting === elmo [~james@213.151.107.243] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === sabdfl [~mark@213.151.107.243] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:00] hey all [05:00] morning [05:00] ish === mdz yawns reflexively === amu [~amu@amu.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Tuesday 14 December 2004 at 1600 UTC: Technical Board meeting -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda === haggai bounces around like tiger [05:01] uh tigger [05:01] there rae no new agenda items [05:01] are [05:01] the wonderful thing about tiggers [05:02] is tiggers are wonderful things [05:02] is tigger are wonderful tings [05:02] aww so cute ;) [05:02] ... was trying to think of something rhyming with kubuntu :-) [05:02] sabdfl: ... ubuntu? [05:02] thatwuntoo [05:02] tiggerunto? [05:03] should we begin [05:03] nothing on the agenda [05:03] mdz, any other business? [05:03] there are two items on the agenda [05:03] - libnns-mdns [05:03] - language packs [05:04] (libnss-mdns) [05:04] ah right [05:04] sabdfl: none from me [05:04] that's howl right? [05:04] no [05:04] mdns? [05:04] language packs were discussed at the previous tech board meeting [05:04] that one should have been moved down to old business [05:04] mdns == multicast dns resolution (not part of howl, but related to zeroconf support) [05:04] there is no bullet point next to mdns [05:04] and therefore it is clearly invalid [05:04] haha [05:05] so the matter with mdns is that it wants to listen [05:05] mdz: might be worth pointing folks at the notes from the languagepak bof at the conf [05:05] it doesn't. [05:05] mdnsresponder from howl does [05:05] libnss-mdns is just a resolver [05:05] http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LanguagePacksBOF [05:05] you punted it to tech board because you felt that nss modules were dangerous [05:05] so is the proposal just to add libnss-mdns to supported? [05:06] to desktop [05:06] or to add it to the default nsswitch configuration? [05:06] yeah, and the default configuration === lulu [~lu@213.151.107.243] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:06] we have the option between an nss module or a glibc patch. personally, i think the nss option is slightly saner (and easy to disable). :-) [05:07] i'm not really clear on your POV about nss module fear though [05:07] i've no preference === doko [~doko@213.151.107.243] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:07] it's no scarier than a glibc patch [05:07] but glibc patches are, well, SCARY === Keybuk [~scott@213.151.107.243] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:08] what does it buy us in terms of functionality? === Keybuk sneaks in :p [05:08] does it let applications discover mdns things? [05:08] Keybuk: 20 pushups. [05:08] is it worth having a mataro session on mdns / zeroconf in general? [05:09] mdz: no, it just resolves .local names === sivang [~sivang@80.179.93.130.forward.012.net.il] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:09] sabdfl: potentially, i punted it because it was pretty airy-fairy. [05:09] it seems zeroconf / rendesvous has big potential, but also brings risks === pitti [~pitti@213.151.107.243] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:09] if it's vaporous, should we be adding it to the default code path for every application which uses DNS? === seb128 [~seb128@213.151.107.243] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:10] libnss-mdns -> vaporous? [05:10] apple is pushing rendesvous pretty hard, is anything happening in the windows world about it? [05:10] if it's going to be widely supported and standard, then we will need to find a sane way to integrate it [05:10] jdub: airy-fairy? [05:10] MS backed UPnP, but will probably stumble on zeroconf at some stage. [05:11] much like cups, smb browsing etc [05:11] mdz: oh, a single bof about "zeroconf" in general. [05:11] yes [05:11] sabdfl: the big question, wrt risk, is whether mdnsresponder listens by default [05:11] what about a single-check "turn it on" option? [05:11] if it's not really in wide use yet, I'd say turn it off for now [05:11] that's my preference [05:11] sabdfl: automatic answer is "no", but that makes it useless and non-zeroconf. :) [05:11] ("turn it on" option) [05:11] jdub: "oneconf" [05:11] given policy, me too. [05:12] uniconf! (.sf.net -> fear) [05:12] what about a way in the system in general for things to say "i need to do some conf, can we turn it on.... ok, done" [05:12] mobile-esque "Discoverable for 5 minutes" ? [05:12] sabdfl: we could also need this for cups browsing etc. [05:12] hmm. How about turn it on, if we get a zeroconf network config? [05:12] this is really something that's useful while the user is at the console, right? [05:12] cups browsing is broken by design [05:12] it should use zeroconf [05:12] rh are doing some good user-level cups / hal / howl integration [05:13] mdz: thereby deferring the problem? [05:13] "metadata!" [05:13] it reverses the problem [05:13] the cups server would need mdns-responder, but not clients [05:13] mdz: upstream is not going to change it [05:13] "who?" rather than "me!" [05:13] right [05:13] so it's more like dns [05:13] pitti: but it's fairly likely that everyone else will be using those patches. [05:13] yes [05:13] sabdfl: it, um, is dns. [05:14] is howl == zeroconf == libnss-mdns (client side)? [05:14] they're all related [05:15] zeroconf covers autoconfiguration of local link IP addresses and names, as well as dns-based service discovery [05:15] libnss-mdns is the resolver side of ip autoconfiguration [05:15] so zeroconf is "where are my printers" ? [05:15] howl is service discovery (uni and multicast, and publishing) [05:15] we're not doing ip autoconfiguration yet, but we can defer that for network manager, etc. [05:16] i should make a wiki page to explain all of this :) [05:16] yes, you should [05:16] what's the relationship between libnss-mdns and dhcp? === jdub tomboys [05:16] sabdfl: nothing, really [05:16] ip autoconf? [05:16] libnss-mdns needs an IP to send from [05:16] ip autoconfiguraiton and dhcp are related in that they both dynamically assign ips [05:16] dhcp is server based, zcip (zeroconf ip) is local lan non routable, etc. [05:17] ok [05:17] so this would be useful if, say, three of us were sitting on a bus and just wanted to throw a wifi netowrk up together? [05:17] right [05:17] or if you were all at an Ubuntu conference and wanted to talk to each other [05:17] or on a plane to australia [05:17] sabdfl: yes [05:17] give it to me now! [05:17] sabdfl: like the ichat 'rendezvous' window [05:18] at a conference [05:18] I think the flight crew frown on ad-hoc wireless networks === sivang was instructed to now use wifi/cd [05:18] flight crews always smile [05:18] *not [05:18] (while in air) [05:18] jdub: if you smile first [05:18] so the question is, should we integrate nss-mdns and start exercising it? [05:18] does libnss-mdns have an always-listening component? [05:19] Keybuk: no, it's an nss module only [05:19] is there anything planned for hoary which would actually use it? [05:19] just a resolver [05:19] (which would rely on it, I should sya) [05:19] say [05:19] so to discover things with it, you need a listener elsewhere on the network ? [05:19] mdz: "is there anything in hoary that relies on dns resolution?" [05:19] jdub: when you try to resolve, does it ping the network and listen for responses? [05:19] Keybuk: well, yeah - mdnsresponder automatically publishes the hostname [05:20] ah, so it's a dns responder -- and nothing to do with service discovery ? [05:20] sabdfl: i don't believe so, no. [05:20] what's the status of utopia / dbus stack that would let a user see a dialog giving the status of a howl discovery session happening at system level? [05:20] jdub: that is not the same thing and you know it :-P [05:20] Keybuk: yes, see above. [05:20] it's *literally* multicast dns === Keybuk understands now [05:20] depending on where we put it in nsswitch.conf, it'll be queried in order with other name resolution services [05:21] sabdfl: i can't see why that would be desireable or useful [05:21] currently we just try /etc/hosts and then dns [05:21] sabdfl: right now it is not integrated in hal AFAIK [05:21] the nss equivalent of "Is there a Hugh Janus in the room? Telephone call for a Hugh Janus" [05:21] can that be used to redirect traffic? [05:21] yes [05:22] if we add it to the end, and you try to go to www.goggle.com, I can answer and send you somewhere, e.g. [05:22] nice [05:22] ok [05:22] adding it to the start would be, as jeff would say, BONG [05:22] dns says "nope" then mdns says "sure, try this one" [05:22] exactly [05:23] every single failed DNS request would try mdns as a fallback [05:23] only for .local [05:23] eh? [05:24] it wouldn't go looking for www.google.com with libnss-mdns [05:24] well, it would, but mdns would say no very quickly [05:24] as in, "not .local? kthxbye" [05:24] wouldn't we need to configure things to search .local then? [05:25] jdub: where is the code which does that bit? [05:25] ah, well, that's a separate issue :) [05:25] and then wouldn't it resolve www.google.com.local ? [05:26] so it's the dns equivalent of M$'s netbios? Flood your local network instead of having a sane DNS server? [05:27] it's somewhat less braindead in that it uses multicast rather than broadcast [05:27] the difference being that at least mdns is explanable [05:27] it includes its own DNS implementation, cute [05:27] not even MS engineers can really fathom out netbios === thom [~thom@amnesiac.heapspace.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:28] Keybuk: it seems to be irrelevant [05:28] Keybuk: because jdub is full of shit about it only resolving .local :-P [05:28] heh [05:28] so, we really have to choose between pioneering and being conservative [05:28] that's easily fixable, though [05:28] i don't see the big win in breaking down this particular wall [05:28] so i think lennart meant it did it in svn, not the released version [05:29] but yeah, not a huge issue [05:29] if we do $zeroconf, we should to it in one big strategy-led punch; rather than in drips === bob2 [rob@bob2.user] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:29] seems that ms, apple, others will battle out the usability issues, we can follow on this one [05:29] we can't pioneer on every front [05:29] we don't have to [05:29] supporting the standard is enough [05:29] as more stuff up the stack supports it, we win [05:29] you can do that without turning it on by default everywhere [05:30] "standard" is one thing, figuring out what normal sane regular behaviour is is quite different [05:30] add it to supported and write a ZeroConfHowto? [05:30] Keybuk: i don't think that's a problem [05:30] sabdfl: we know what that behaviour is [05:30] it would be nice to have a single knob that would turn on all the zeroconf bits [05:30] i don't think we do! [05:30] we don't know how it should integraqte with dns and that's pretty fundamental [05:31] 1) we should always have a local lan ip [05:31] 2) we should only mdns query for .local [05:31] 3) we shouldn't search on .local [05:31] why #1 ? [05:31] jdub: we already do #1 :-) [05:31] we do? [05:31] mdz: no we don't [05:31] "ip addr" sometime [05:32] m gut feel is it will take a while before there's clear "best practice" [05:32] mdz: that's inet6, not inet4 [05:32] and if we forge ahead now, we have to support upgrades and old behaviour etc [05:32] does libnss-mdns support ip6 networks? [05:32] we're really not forging ahead here [05:32] bluetooth, however, might be an easier point [05:32] windows does zcip, mac os x does zcip [05:33] do they do it in the same way? [05:33] always? [05:33] yes [05:33] so bring up a win box, and a ma, on the same network, and it interoperates? [05:33] (for #1) [05:33] http://files.zeroconf.org/draft-ietf-zeroconf-ipv4-linklocal.txt [05:33] "standard" [05:33] sabdfl: no, they both get zcips [05:33] well, you can ping each other [05:34] demonstrably? [05:34] that's the zeroconf ip part of the standard [05:34] as far as i've seen, yes [05:34] Keybuk: planned, but not fully implemented [05:34] zcip doesn't sound so scary [05:34] "Microsoft Windows 98 (and later) and Mac OS 8.5 (and later) already support this capability. This document standardizes usage," [05:34] so we're definately not leading [05:34] on zcip, no [05:35] the second point of resolving .local stuff is not exactly rocket science [05:35] BUGS [05:35] zcip currently assumes that the target interface is down and reconfig [05:35] ures it. The IETF draft seems to suggest using multihoming, which we [05:35] dont do yet. [05:35] that sounds problematic [05:35] os x already does it [05:35] zcip is one particular implementation [05:35] howl includes an implementation [05:35] so is libnss-mdns useful without a $zcip ? [05:35] Keybuk: yes [05:35] yes, this looks like mutual dhcp [05:35] if you get dhcp, chances are you get dns too [05:36] sabdfl: you say we can't forge ahead on all fronts. When you look at cross-OS stuff we are forging ahead on very little.. [05:36] Keybuk: mdns serves a different purpose [05:36] ok, have to head off to barcelona, enjoy [05:36] it lets me advertise something to you [05:36] rather than having the network admin add it to the DNS server [05:37] that's not what libnss-mdns looks up though, it just does name lookups ? [05:37] i think mdz's original concern, [05:37] new code in a very active codepath, [05:37] was probably the most relevant issue [05:37] Keybuk: yes [05:38] i'm also going to barcelona [05:38] but unless you have an IP, you can't do name lookups anyway [05:38] you need $fu to co-operate on IP and ensure "domain local" is the order of the day [05:39] Keybuk: "domain local" as in resolv.conf? [05:39] yeah [05:39] nah [05:39] or equiv === smurfix_ [~smurf@smurfix.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:40] ok, i think i'm going [05:41] me too [05:41] we'll defer mdns stuff until something interesting comes along [05:41] any urgent business before we adjourn? [05:41] adjourned, bye [05:42] thanks, everyone [05:42] " kthxbye" === pitti [~pitti@213.151.107.243] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Have] === Keybuk [~scott@213.151.107.243] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === elmo [~james@213.151.107.243] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === haggai [~halls@i-83-67-20-196.freedom2surf.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["the] [05:49] http://www.simira.net/UbuntuWomen.html - My article about Ubuntu and women in open source === lulu [~lu@213.151.107.243] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [06:17] hi lulu [06:39] Simira: there's a '\ ' in your name.. don't you mean a '/' ? === thom [~thom@amnesiac.heapspace.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [06:39] oh no, not again... yes, thanks, Treenaks [06:39] so, there [06:40] Simira: oh, and s/Mataro/Matar/ :P [06:41] Treenaks: that looked to me like an A with a ~ and a 3 over :p [06:41] Simira: in which editor? [06:42] Simira: and are you using an UTF-8 locale? [06:42] in mIRC [06:42] mirc.. ah :) [06:43] :p [06:43] yes.. that's how an UTF-8 o-with-accent looks if you try to parse it as Latin1 === mdz [~mdz@28.Red-80-25-202.pooles.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === maskie [~maskie@196-30-111-225.uudial.uunet.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting