[04:02] <Treenaks> /topic anyone?
[04:32] <zul> hey seb128 
[04:32] <seb128> afternoon
[04:51] <Treenaks> hi seb
[04:57] <sivang> hi sabdfl :)
[04:57] <sabdfl> evening sivang
[04:57] <Treenaks> hi sabdfl 
[04:58] <sabdfl> ready for today's cc meeting?
[04:58] <sabdfl> let's give everyone a few minutes to get together
[04:58] <mako> whoa
[04:58] <sabdfl> hey mako
[04:58] <mako> sabdfl: hey
[04:59] <Kamion> here
[05:01] <Kamion> not sure we're getting elmo today
[05:01] <mako> done
[05:02] <sabdfl> hi kamion, saw those uploads this morning
[05:02] <sabdfl> should we get going?
[05:02] <sabdfl> smurfix, you around?
[05:03] <smurfix> yep
[05:03] <mako> and perhaps to ratify it if that's something we need to do
[05:03] <sabdfl> the agenda suggests smurfix will intro the country-teams idea
[05:03] <sabdfl> smurfix: happy to do so? if so, go ahead
[05:04] <smurfix> ok
[05:04] <mako> wait one second
[05:04] <smurfix> (still typing slowly ;-)
[05:04] <sivang> heheh
[05:04] <mako> i think it might be better to first introduce the notes from the NM bof
[05:04] <sivang> sabdfl: ready as could be.
[05:04] <sabdfl> mako: go ahead
[05:04] <smurfix> mako: OK, makes sense
[05:04] <mako> because the new distctions between groups have a bearing on the way that this is done
[05:04] <sabdfl> righ
[05:04] <sabdfl> t
[05:04] <mako> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewDevelopersAndMaintainers
[05:05] <mako> those are the super notes written up by plov
[05:05] <sabdfl> by way of background to folks who weren't in mataro
[05:05] <mako> right
[05:05] <sabdfl> we had a great session brainstorming on our maintainer process
[05:05] <sabdfl> and i think the result is excellent
[05:05] <mako> those notes they read pretty well as a summary of the conclusion we came to
[05:06] <sabdfl> it balances the need to empower people early on, with the need to keep the team technically exceptional
[05:06] <mako> but the basic problem we were trying to solve was to find a way to recognize the contributions of people who are not developers or package maintainers
[05:06] <mako> and to enfranchise them within the governnance system
[05:06] <sabdfl> and recognises that there are lots of ways people participate, and gives those people a voice
[05:06] <mako> the document will do a better job than what t i can type now
[05:06] <mako> but the basic idea is that we have members who are recognized by this body
[05:07] <mako> and they will be able to confirm new members of the CC
[05:07] <mako> and they should have contributed meaningful to the community
[05:07] <mako> but they do not need to be package maintainers
[05:07] <mako> the rest of the system is basically the same as before
[05:07] <Kamion> procedurally, as I understand it, this means we approve members and then pass them to the TB for technical approval if they want to go one step further up; this reads as a codification of what we've been informally doing up to now
[05:07] <mako> except that maintainer is now a purely technical distinction
[05:08] <mako> Kamion: i'd prefer to think of it as a lateral step, but yes :)
[05:08] <Kamion> either way :)
[05:08] <sabdfl> also clarifies the distinction between committer and maintainer
[05:08] <mako> Kamion: it was unclear what to do with non-technical applicants in the past
[05:08] <mako> right
[05:08] <sabdfl> and allows for commit rights to be given on specific components or packages
[05:09] <mako> as a result, we have a couple people on the agenda for today who are applying for member status in the community but who are not currently pursuing TB approval to upload
[05:09] <sabdfl> mako: i think we should write this up as a formal doc and have it approved by the cc
[05:09] <mako> and these are connected to thehe country teams as well
[05:09] <mako> sabdfl: and then move it into the website governance page/pages
[05:10] <mako> yeah, that sounds ideal.. i think that doc provides most of what we need
[05:10] <sabdfl> we can get going right away with new members, on the basis that the cc were all there
[05:10] <mako> sabdfl: i'll have that ready for the next CC meeting
[05:10] <sabdfl> mako: great, thanks!
[05:10] <sabdfl> any initial comments from folks who were not at the mataro sessions?
[05:11] <mako> it's also worth mentioning that there was some good work done on mentoring processes by Chris Haas
[05:11] <mako> who is going to be helping out with a mentoring system for ubuntu.. really great work
[05:11] <sabdfl> yes
[05:12] <sabdfl> folks who are keen to become committers or maintainers would benefit greatly from spending some time with ChrisH
[05:12] <sabdfl> also, we agreed to review very quickly any proposed packages from new maintainer candidates
[05:12] <ChrisH> You are all invited for a pizza. ;)
[05:12] <Kamion> I'm particularly glad to see that because it will mean that much of the mentoring process doesn't have to start with Canonical staff who are already heavily committed in many cases
[05:12] <sabdfl> but the actual detailed back and forth to get a package up to scratch if it isn't right first time is best handled by the mentoring process
[05:12] <Treenaks> ChrisH: where? :)
[05:13] <Kamion> proposed packages> was it within two days or so?
[05:13] <sabdfl> two working, i think
[05:13] <sabdfl> mako, could you document the process on that front as well too please?
[05:13] <Kamion> I think we should agree to at least get back to them with feedback within that time; there'll be cases of very large packages which take a long time to review
[05:13] <sabdfl> we'll need some sort of workflow to track that commitment
[05:13] <Kamion> the key is to not leave people stalled during the review process
[05:14] <mako> sabdfl: yes, of course
[05:14] <sabdfl> agreed
[05:14] <sabdfl> any other comments on the new maintainer process?
[05:15] <mako> not right now
[05:16] <mako> i'll send the draft to -devel
[05:16] <sivang> we just need some good, accessible docs for it I guess
[05:16] <mako> so we can take discussion onto the lists
[05:16] <sabdfl> good idea
[05:16] <mako> let move on
[05:16] <mako> smurfix: you're up
[05:16] <sabdfl> do we have any members up for approval?
[05:17] <mako> smurfix: only connected to doc team work
[05:17] <sivang> and country teams :)
[05:17] <mako> sabdfl: ^^^
[05:17] <mako> i meant country teams
[05:17] <sabdfl> right
[05:17] <smurfix> So, back to country teams, as those who are on the CC agenda today want to become team leaders ;-)
[05:17] <mako> two thinkos
[05:18] <Treenaks> smurfix: yes
[05:18] <Kamion> looks like Treenaks and sivang are both up for membership approval?
[05:18] <smurfix> Many of the country teams basically organized themselves -- we want to take advantage of that, recognize their contributions, and make that a more integrated part of Ubuntu
[05:18] <Treenaks> Kamion: right
[05:18] <smurfix> The technical side of "what we want from the country team" is on the CountryTeams wiki page
[05:19] <Kamion> the NM bof notes equate Ubuntite with activist, so that may not be the best term for use on the agenda
[05:19] <mako> Kamion: i changed it
[05:19] <smurfix> basically, IRC and mailing list and maybe a forum and whatnot
[05:19] <mako> reload
[05:19] <Kamion> mako: aha, thanks
[05:19] <sabdfl> can we agree on Ubuntite?
[05:20] <sabdfl> oh, there's a zillion typos waiting to happen there...
[05:20] <Kamion> I think my main concern for country teams is that there should be somebody responsible for liaising with the primarily English-speaking development community as necessary
[05:20] <mako> sabdfl: nothing we aren't used to :)
[05:20] <Kamion> we can follow ubuntu-users (mostly ...), but generally not ubuntu-nl etc.
[05:20] <smurfix> also it might make sense for Ubuntu to have a common second-level domain names if at all possible
[05:20] <mako> Kamion: oh, good idea!
[05:21] <sabdfl> we could do nl.ubuntulinux.org etc very easily
[05:21] <mako> Kamion: we can have them send summaries to be included in traffic!
[05:21] <Kamion> that would be good
[05:21] <sabdfl> but i think it's more effective to have domains that match standard practice in that country
[05:21] <Treenaks> Kamion: in what way? for "localization needs"?
[05:21] <sivang> why not having localized ubuntu domains?
[05:21] <sabdfl> mako: great idea
[05:21] <mako> that would be *great*
[05:21] <smurfix> which the team leaders can help orgainze, though happily I co-own an ISP which does international domain registrations *grin*
[05:21] <sivang> sabdfl: I have already started doing that :) as of my conversation with lu from last week.
[05:21] <Kamion> Treenaks: users frequently report bugs on the users mailing list
[05:22] <smurfix> you all type way too fast for me ;-)
[05:22] <Treenaks> Kamion: oh stuff like that.. yeah forwarding/translating those would be an idea :)
[05:22] <smurfix> we might want to make that Wiki list-of-stuff a more integral part of the site later; for now I've started the CountryTeamList page ten minutes ago
[05:22] <sabdfl> also, to help coordinate the migration of code into the main distro, like input methods and font decisions etc
[05:23] <smurfix> sabdfl: that too, yes
[05:23] <sivang> sabdfl: the thing is, we need to see what std. form those localized sites can take, if to follow the main layout of ulinux.org etc, or have their own layout at the moment.
[05:23] <Kamion> and to act as points of contact on geopolitical issues
[05:23] <Kamion> although sometimes external observers may be less biased; it depends
[05:24] <sabdfl> i think we want to be as empowering as possible
[05:24] <mako> there are tons of things that the team can do
[05:24] <sabdfl> which means offer people the use fo the official artwork and css if they want, but also let them to anything else if they think it suits their community better
[05:24] <Kamion> agreed
[05:24] <mako> but if it's only to provide an interface between existing ubuntu community and the rest of the project, it's owrthwhile
[05:24] <sabdfl> Kamion: hot button :-)
[05:24] <smurfix> My list of the social part of the country team leader's responsibility so far:
[05:25] <mako> i think we can think pretty big.. each team will be different
[05:25] <smurfix> - be visible in the local community, of course ;-)
[05:25] <Kamion> sabdfl: indeed - an important one for many countries though
[05:25] <smurfix> - keep a list of regional contacts
[05:25] <smurfix> - remind people of / enforce the CoC if necessary
[05:25] <sivang> smurfix: CoC = ?
[05:25] <Kamion> code of conduct
[05:25] <Treenaks> Code of Conduct
[05:25] <sivang> eh
[05:25] <sivang> :0
[05:25] <sivang> :)
[05:26] <sabdfl> i'd like the country teams to have a high visibility on our home page
[05:26] <sabdfl> we thought of flags, but that can be too divisive
[05:26] <mako> sabdfl:  a map?
[05:26] <sabdfl> and we may have to refer to the teams as "regional teams" rather than country teams
[05:26] <sivang> sabdfl: maybe a special section for the country team, like "Ubuntu in your country,lang etc"
[05:26] <smurfix> the other stuff on my llist has already been mentioned while I was busy typing ;-)
[05:26] <sivang> *teams
[05:26] <Kamion> flags *definitely* best avoided
[05:27] <Kamion> likewise maps indicating country borders; you can go to jail in some countries for that (!)
[05:27] <Treenaks> sabdfl: yes, I notice lots of Flemish people (who also speak Dutch) come to the Dutch support
[05:27] <Treenaks> sabdfl: so it's more a language thing than a country thing for me
[05:27] <sabdfl> lithping ever thinth?
[05:28] <smurfix> Treenaks: the distinction between these two isna't always readily apparent
[05:28] <smurfix> isn't
[05:28] <Treenaks> smurfix: true..
[05:28] <mako> i think we can push this convesation to the lists or put it on hold until afterwards
[05:28] <mako> i think mark's suggestion to have good visible on the website is a good idea
[05:29] <mako> we just need to iron out how to do it correctly
[05:29] <sabdfl> ok, but let's at least publically thank the guys who have stepped up so far
[05:29] <smurfix> anyway, that's it from me, for now.
[05:29] <sabdfl> and invite them to have a say in ubuntu as members
[05:29] <mako> we can do that
[05:29] <mako> it's even on the agenda :)
[05:29] <sabdfl> is niels around?
[05:30] <Treenaks> who is he on irc?
[05:30] <mako> i don't know his nick
[05:30] <mako> does anyone know Niels Kjller Hansen's nick?
[05:30] <sabdfl> nope
[05:30] <sabdfl> he doesn't have a wiki page
[05:31] <mako> then we can defer that decision unitl the next kmeeting
[05:31] <mako> i think both sivang and Treenaks should be uncontroversial :)
[05:31] <Treenaks> Whee :)
[05:31] <sabdfl> kamion?
[05:32] <sivang> yey! :)
[05:32] <mako> sivang and Treenaks were both at the conference and did good work there and both have been active in trying to help define what a country team is through planning and example
[05:33] <Kamion> sabdfl: I don't, sorry
[05:33] <sabdfl> Kamion: que?
[05:33] <Kamion> neils' nick
[05:33] <sabdfl> ah
[05:33] <Kamion> niels, sorry
[05:34] <sivang> hehe
[05:34] <mako> can we confirm them?
[05:34] <sabdfl> i was just checking if you were also happy with treenaks and sivang
[05:34] <mako> or are thehere more questions?
[05:34] <Kamion> oh, yes, I met them both and I'm fine with both
[05:34] <sabdfl> i'm thrilled with both of their contributions too
[05:34] <sabdfl> welcome aboard, both of you
[05:34] <Treenaks> thanks
[05:34] <sivang> sabdfl: thank you!
[05:34] <sivang> thanks all
[05:34] <smurfix> sivang, Treenaks: could you update the draft list at CountryTeamList? (Though not at the same time please ;-)
[05:34] <sivang> smurfix: sure thing
[05:35] <mako> Treenaks, sivang: you have the privledge/difficulty of defining the rules of this as you go :)
[05:35] <Treenaks> mako: cool :)
[05:35] <sivang> :)
[05:35] <mako> you should stay in touch withs smurfix and myself who can bring your experience into best practices for groups that come after you :)
[05:35] <sabdfl> smurfix: would you like to play a more general role in the country teams?
[05:35] <sabdfl> did you take this one on?
[05:36] <smurfix> sabdfl: dure
[05:36] <mako> sabdfl: he did at the marketing meeting
[05:36] <smurfix> sure
[05:36] <sabdfl> ok, let's document that on the wiki and site
[05:36] <mako> smurfix: i mean, i don't want to speak for you :)
[05:36] <sabdfl> yes, i recall, was just looking for the bof notes :-)
[05:36] <sabdfl> this is a very exciting step
[05:36] <smurfix> sabdfl: I'll update the pages as appropriate over the next couple days
[05:36] <sabdfl> we set a high goal: 50 countries for Hoary, right?
[05:37] <sabdfl> mako: i think this warrants a mail to -devel and -users as well
[05:37] <smurfix> sabdfl: right.
[05:37] <mako> sabdfl: at least
[05:37] <sabdfl> i'd rather concentrate things there than -announce for the moment
[05:37] <mako> smurfix: lets work together to get announcment out by the end of thehe week
[05:37] <sabdfl> because we want it to reach people who are active
[05:38] <Treenaks> smurfix: updated
[05:38] <mako> ther eis also -news
[05:39] <mako> i think we've fallen off the end of the agenda
[05:39] <smurfix> mako: Can you write a first draft?
[05:39] <sabdfl> let's stick to -devel and -users for the moment
[05:39] <mako> smurfix: sure..
[05:40] <mako> speaking of...
[05:40] <mako> TB meeitng next week?
[05:40] <smurfix> sivang: ping me when you're done editing the list page ?
[05:40] <mako> sabdfl: postponed?
[05:40] <sivang> smurfix: k
[05:40] <sabdfl> mako: yes, i think so, can check with mdz later
[05:40] <mako> sabdfl: alright.. we shoudl make an announcment
[05:40] <mako> sabdfl: if it is postponed
[05:41] <sabdfl> ok, and update the wiki page
[05:41] <sabdfl> i'll update the wiki agenda pages now
[05:41] <sabdfl> any other business?
[05:41] <mako> that's all i have now
[05:41] <Kamion> nothing from me
[05:41] <sivang> sec
[05:41] <mako> jan 4 same time
[05:41] <sabdfl> sivang had a last question, worth mentioning here
[05:41] <mako> ?
[05:42] <mako> go ahead
[05:42] <sivang> What about localized websites? What if a country team cannot provide the hosting himself? will canonical be in help of that?
[05:42] <sabdfl> what sorts of things could help?
[05:42] <Kamion> do we have sufficient plone suport for that?
[05:42] <Kamion> "support"
[05:42] <sabdfl> not easily
[05:43] <sabdfl> plone is sort of all or nothing
[05:43] <Treenaks> stuff like automatic browser language detection?
[05:43] <sabdfl> hmm... yes i tihnk it does that
[05:43] <mako> there are two ways of handlin this
[05:43] <sabdfl> so we can have pages in the main site that are translated, and served correctly
[05:43] <ChrisH> I remember someone in Mataro said it would be possible to provide the same pages (of www.ubuntulinux.org) in different languages.
[05:43] <Kamion> was thinking more of being able to store the localised version of a page with the English one
[05:43] <mako> jane and lulu and i talked at the conference about getting someone to handle website improvements and such
[05:43] <mako> this sort of thing would be on the top of the list
[05:43] <Kamion> rather than just kludging _nl onto the end of every page :)
[05:44] <sivang> I was speaking, could we get webspace over a cnonical server? :) or firms which we can interest in supporting ubuntu in that way?
[05:44] <Treenaks> Kamion: that'd suck :)
[05:44] <smurfix> I can setup something on my hosted machine for people who need a place for hosting
[05:44] <sabdfl> we could also sponsor a web server for those country teams that need one, with virtual hosts for them
[05:44] <mako> currently, folks just have translated pages in wikis and on their ownm servers
[05:44] <Treenaks> Kamion: the tacking-on-_nl thing
[05:44] <sivang> sabdfl: my thought exactly :)
[05:44] <mako> sabdfl: might be nice
[05:44] <Kamion> Treenaks: indeed
[05:44] <sabdfl> it would have limited shell support i imagine, but be good enough for website hosting
[05:44] <ChrisH> Let's keep the localised versions on the same server. No use to have a seperat server on the internet for each lang.
[05:44] <mako> sabdfl: but almost all i've seen had php
[05:44] <Kamion> mako: problem with that is that they get out of date trivially
[05:44] <Kamion> translation tracking is just as important as a one-shot effort
[05:44] <mako> which doesn't go over well with thom :)
[05:45] <mako> Kamion: yes, of course
[05:45] <sabdfl> i tihnk some critical docs need to be translated on the main server
[05:45] <sabdfl> like CoC
[05:45] <mako> i think a plone based solution makes  sthe most sense
[05:45] <sivang> we should see if we can have rosetta support web site translations :)
[05:45] <sabdfl> and governance docs, nm docs etc
[05:45] <Treenaks> Kamion: changes-mail, like the wiki does when you "subscribe" to a page?
[05:45] <sabdfl> but much of the local community stuff can best be hosted on a country-team website
[05:45] <sabdfl> like, when people are meeting up, and where
[05:45] <smurfix> sabdfl: exactly
[05:46] <smurfix> if people need space for that they can talk to me
[05:46] <smurfix> since they're going to talk to me anyway ;-)
[05:46] <sabdfl> smurfix: that's very kind of you
[05:46] <smurfix> sabdfl: don't worry, you'll get a bill for it ;-)  ;-)
[05:46] <Treenaks> oh, we're having a -nl dinner/keysigning some time in January -- if anyone's near Utrecht then, they're welcome to join
[05:46] <sivang> we'll start with that and see how this scales?
[05:46] <mako> smurfix: alright.. perhaps we can trust some sort of short terms solution to the planning for the counry teams
[05:46] <sabdfl> if it turns into a lot of work we can rent space on a commercial basis somewhere for the teams
[05:47] <sivang> smurfix: do you have plone already installed? or moin moin? :)
[05:47] <smurfix> sabdfl: I don't expect it will -- I'l speak up if it's going to be a problem.
[05:47] <sabdfl> ok guys, let's wrap up
[05:47] <mako> sivang: good point though.. we definitely know it's a problem
[05:47] <smurfix> sivang: moin, yes. Plone not yet
[05:48] <mako> alright
[05:48] <mako> Jan 4, 1600?
[05:48] <mako> UTC?
[05:48] <smurfix> sivang: I expect the stuff that needs plone to be located on the main site anyway
[05:48] <sabdfl> mako: tb?
[05:48] <mako> that would be the currently scheduled CC meeting if we wait two weeks
[05:48] <mako> if we just want to pretend like next week doesn't happen
[05:48] <sivang> smurfix: ah ok, I just wanted to .il one to have consistent look with the main one.
[05:48] <mako> the next meeting would be in three weeks  son the 11th
[05:49] <smurfix> mako: that makes sense
[05:49] <mako> i tend to think that 2 weeks is a good interval but since one week will be holidays for many people, the 11th would work
[05:49] <sabdfl> ok, tb on jan 4th
[05:50] <sabdfl> thanks everybody
[05:50] <mako> see you next year :)
[05:50] <Treenaks> :)
[05:50] <Kamion> good 2004, guys
[05:50] <sivang> happy new year everybody :)
[05:50] <sabdfl> have a great festive season all
[05:50] <jordi> heh
[05:50] <sabdfl> yes, well done on this first year
[05:50] <sabdfl> cheers all
[05:50] <mako> chhers
[05:50] <sivang> cheers
[05:50] <Treenaks> cheers
[05:51] <mvo> cheers
[05:51] <Treenaks> jordi: say "\o/\o/\o/"
[05:51] <sivang> what woudl jdub say? :)
[05:51] <mako> PANTS OFF
[05:51] <sivang> heheh
[05:51] <sivang> in spanish
[05:51] <Treenaks> ok
[05:51] <Treenaks> time to catch my bus home
[05:51] <Treenaks> back in ~1.5 hours
[05:51] <mako> sivang: "estoy buscando mi patalonis"
[05:52] <sivang> mako: exactly !
[05:52] <jordi> estic cercant els meus pantalons!
[05:52] <jordi> dudes, you gotta pick the Catalan trends.
[09:35] <jordi> hmm. wtf.