[12:02] <lamont> Kamion: heh
[12:03] <carlos> Kamion: now it's a good time to start learning Spanish :-P
[12:34] <mxpxpod> what's wrong with mono on hoary? why is it still in limbo on ppc?
[12:38] <Kamion> requires manual bootstrapping, I think ...
[12:41] <lamont> Kamion: btw, no love from ia64 install CD
[12:41] <Kamion> lamont: what's up with it?
[12:41] <lamont> loads of missing udebs, --> can't load installer components from CD
[12:41] <Kamion> yes, I just got a bug about that ...
[12:41] <lamont> affects other CD's too?
[12:42] <lamont> easy to fix?
[12:42] <Kamion> doesn't affect current powerpc
[12:43] <lamont> do you want a list?
[12:43] <Kamion> easy to fix when I know what's wrong ... :)
[12:43] <Kamion> I'd rather have a copy of /var/log/syslog
[12:43] <lamont> yeah - easier said that done, yes?
[12:43] <Kamion> you have nc in busybox
[12:43] <lamont> hrm... how hard to mount a USB pen drive at that point?
[12:43] <lamont> ah, nc is cool.
[12:43] <Kamion> #4940, BTW
[12:44] <Kamion> ta
[12:46] <lamont> yeah, there's nc, but no network cards yet. :-(
[12:47] <lamont> time to take advantage of /dev/ttyS0
[12:51] <lamont> Kamion: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/ia64.syslog
[12:52] <lamont> ( sh < /dev/ttyS0 > /dev/ttyS0 2>&1 is a powerful command... :-)
[12:52] <Kamion> Dec 23 16:37:50 main-menu[2068] : (process:5514): Segmentation fault
[12:52] <Kamion> whoa?
[12:52] <lamont> hrm.
[12:53] <lamont> command line? and I'll go run it with strace or something.
[12:53] <lamont> strace _is_ on the cd, yes?
[12:54] <Kamion> yeah, but probably won't work until libc6-udeb is installed
[12:54] <Kamion> udpkg -i that, then fish out strace. you don't get a command line, you'll have to find the main-menu process and strace -p it
[12:55] <lamont> anyway, back on momentarily
[01:06] <Kamion> lamont: hm ... you want to strace -f actually, sorry
[01:06] <Kamion> it's a child of main-menu that's segfaulting
[01:12] <lamont__> yeah
[01:12] <lamont__> figured that out.
[01:12] <lamont__> and I need to do things in the background at least a little, since there's no job control.
[01:13] <Kamion> definitely anna segfaulting, but why ...
[01:14] <Kamion> all that code is identical to Debian
[01:15] <lamont__> stracing shell scripts is _BORING_.
[01:16] <Kamion> yeah :)
[01:19] <lamont__> fwiw, there's a really nice tombstone that comes up for hundreds of milliseconds before getting cleared.
[01:19] <lamont__> otoh, serial console might make that not so bad...
[01:19] <lamont__> at least, I hope it does....
[01:20] <lamont__> yep.
[01:20] <lamont__> serial here we come
[01:20] <Kamion> beginning to think strace won't help much though, might be more a gdb job
[01:20] <Kamion> which would mean rebuilding anna with debug symbols ...
[01:21] <lamont__> I should have the tombstone shortly, at least
[01:21] <lamont__> just have to remember to boot serial console,  rather than vga.. :-(
[01:22] <lamont__> Kamion: btw, 12-22 daily ppc installed just fine, thank you.
[01:22] <lamont__> well, except for X not liking the display at all.
[01:22] <lamont__> WTH is daniels when I need to beat him, huh?
[01:23] <Kamion> tombstone?
[01:25] <lamont__> from the segv
[01:25] <lamont__> traceback
[01:27] <Kamion> there must be some weird udeb involved here or something; the code runs fine on amd64, and on alpha/ia64 in Debian, so I don't think there are inherent 64-bit issues
[01:29] <lamont__> p.u.c/~lamont/boot.out
[01:29] <lamont__> firecall - should be back in about 30-40 min, I guess.
[01:30] <Kamion> how do I decode that?
[01:30] <Kamion> assuming that the call trace is outermost-last, the last thing is a syscall entry ...
[01:32] <daniels> lamont__: he's on holidays
[01:32] <Kamion> there are some unlink() calls in install_modules(), mind you
[01:35] <Kamion> lamont__: strace might actually be useful; it would allow me to see whether there's any debconf interaction following the last log entry
[01:56] <lamont__> back
[01:56] <lamont__> daniels: X doesn't start on my ppc box.  (G3)
[01:56] <lamont__> :-(
[01:57] <lamont__> Kamion: so you want me to boot it up again and capture strace output?
[01:58] <lamont__> reipoc.e sound familiar?
[01:58] <lamont__> (that's what's in r8...)
[01:59] <lamont__> sorry.
[01:59] <lamont__> reipoc-e
[02:00] <lamont__> Loading components of the Ubuntu installer  Unable to handle kernel paging request at virtual address 726569706f632d7d
[02:01] <lamont__> and that derives directly from that.
[02:02] <Kamion> lamont__: please
[02:02] <Kamion> (strace)
[02:02] <Kamion> never heard of reipoc-e
[02:06] <lamont__> how about ... e-copier?
[02:06] <lamont__> damn little endian world.
[02:07] <lamont__>  /cdrom/pool/main/a/archive-copier/archive-copier_0.0.11_ia64.udeb
[02:09] <Kamion> shouldn't be an unusual package ...
[02:10] <lamont__> strace running
[02:11] <lamont__> "unpacking archive-copier"... hrm.
[02:11] <Kamion> daniels: you know, we should probably change the Maintainer: of l-r-m ...
[02:11] <Kamion> lamont__: calling udpkg presumably?
[02:12] <lamont__> yeah - but really slow because of the strace at 9600 baud :-(
[02:13] <lamont__> [pid  5753]  execve("/usr/bin/udpkg", ["udpkg", "--print-architecture"] , [/* 17 vars */] ) = 0
[02:13] <lamont__> working through that one
[02:13] <Kamion> wouldn't it be better to strace -o /tmp/whatever and then nc that somewhere?
[02:14] <lamont__> no network
[02:14] <lamont__> we have to finish loading the installer modules before we load the network modules... :-(
[02:15] <lamont__> unless you want to tell me how to get a network that early?
[02:15] <lamont__> then we just have the small issue that I'm using that network cable...
[02:16] <Kamion> ah, well it's possible with creative use of udpkg but it might perturb the problem
[02:16] <lamont__> yeah
[02:17] <lamont__> it doesn't help that I straced a bunch of stuff I didn't need to.. :-(
[02:17] <lamont__> just grep'ed for Componens in hoary/release
[02:18] <lamont__> [pid  5817]  execve("/usr/bin/logger", ["logger", "-t", "cdrom-retriever", "warning: Unable to find restrict"...] , [/* 17 vars */] ) = 0
[02:18] <lamont__> wonder if that matters...
[02:19] <Kamion> that happens everywhere, will be fixing it soon
[02:19] <Kamion> you didn't strace -s <lots>?
[02:23] <lamont__> what's -s do?
[02:24] <lamont__> ia64.strace2
[02:25] <lamont__> (and ia64.strace, but that's the boring leadin)
[02:25] <lamont__> 81% there
[02:25] <lamont__> '
[02:26] <lamont__> grumble. crap connectivity
[02:26] <lamont__> there now
[02:27] <lamont__> pid 5514 is the child with issues, per syslog
[02:28] <lamont__> and that's not in the strace output at all.
[02:28] <Kamion> there's no segv in that trace
[02:28] <lamont__> which could just mean that it ran fast enough to not get grabbed before it failed.
[02:28] <Kamion> I think 5514 is just a shell that calls anna
[02:28] <lamont__> child processes run free until the parent gets the pid back.
[02:28] <Kamion> so, where's the crash?
[02:29] <lamont__> not in the trace
[02:29] <lamont__> it happened at 18:03:41, if there are any times in the strace...
[02:31] <lamont__> do you want one with -s large?
[02:32] <lamont__> although I doubt it'll tell you anything
[02:32] <Kamion> what did you strace?
[02:33] <Kamion> hm, main-menu from the looks of it
[02:33] <lamont__> would you like me to set up serial console access for you? (with a spare serial port)..
[02:33] <lamont__> strace -f -p <pid-of-main-menu>
[02:33] <Kamion> it looks like the strace is truncated
[02:33] <Kamion> stops at:
[02:33] <Kamion> [pid  5818]  --- 
[02:34] <lamont__> eventually I killed it.
[02:34] <Kamion> oh, ok
[02:34] <Kamion> serial access would be good if possible, yeah
[02:34] <lamont__> but we were already dead by then.
[02:34] <Kamion> then I can trace to a file and look at the end of it
[02:34] <lamont__> yeah - is work.  gimme a bit.
[02:35] <lamont__> you want it tonight, or just ready for you by morning?
[02:35] <Kamion> no rush
[02:58] <mojo> daniels: I have this error EVEN though I have soft link the libglx, can u confirm for me whether it is a bug or my mistake?
[02:58] <mojo> root@ubuntu:/home/mojo # glxgears
[02:58] <mojo> Xlib:  extension "GLX" missing on display ":0.0".
[02:58] <mojo> glxgears: Error: couldn't get an RGB, Double-buffered visual.
[02:58] <mojo> root@ubuntu:/home/mojo #
[03:01] <lamont__> warty server install is 'server', yes?
[03:06] <Kamion> no, 'custom'
[03:06] <lamont__> custom. /me blesses help menusw
[03:06] <Kamion> hoary's 'server'
[03:06] <Kamion> (I lost the argument, eventually ...)
[03:07] <lamont__> yeah - server makes me think it has daemons....
[03:13] <Kamion> that's what I said to Mark
[03:13] <Kamion> elmo reckoned that pared-down was fine for servers, though, since you'd want to pick the package set yourself
[03:13] <Kamion> *shrug*
[03:18] <mojo> daniels: I fixed it, dun bother
[03:20] <mojo> there is still libglademm2.4-dev based on old libglade2 that dep on python2.3. It's very annoying b/c I want to use the latest 2.4. Can someone spend a bit of time changing number 3 to number 4 in dep PLS
[03:22] <ogra> mojo: he is on holiday
[03:22] <mojo> ogra: k, let him relaz, I can handle some stuff w/o him
[03:22] <ogra> :) 
[03:24] <lamont__> after several boot attempts, isolated to a bad CD (diff box,i386 this time...)
[03:25] <mojo> lamont__:???
[03:26] <Kamion> not all conversations start when you join the channel ;)
[03:27] <mojo> lol
[03:27] <lamont__> Kamion: many of mine start without me... :-)
[03:28] <mojo> more lol
[03:28] <ogra> lol
[03:28] <lamont__> I find myself reminded just how _SLOW_ 233 MHz is.
[03:31] <lamont__> otoh, 233MHz should keep up with the printer OK.
[03:36] <Kamion> aj: any thoughts on having debootstrap validate Release sigs?
[03:37] <anselm_> Hello, could someone possible help me with a problem?
[03:38] <mojo> dude, if it's related to development, then ask
[03:38] <mojo> else go to #ubuntu
[03:38] <anselm_> ok well go over to #ubuntu, thanks
[03:40] <Kamion> mdz: what's happened to all the debian/changelog entries between 0.5.32 and 0.6.27?
[03:41] <mdz> Kamion: they were lost during the merge which brought the 0.6 branch up to date
[03:41] <mdz> the history is still there in arch
[03:41] <Kamion> I hope they'll be restored
[03:41] <mdz> most of it isn't particularly relevant in the mainline changelog
[03:42] <mdz> and it's not entirely clear to me where in the changelog they should go
[03:42] <mdz> perhaps a separate file would be OK
[03:42] <mdz> you mentioned that you had some ideas for branch representation in changelogs
[03:43] <Kamion> I brought them up in one of the BOFs at Mataro
[03:43] <Kamion> basically:
[03:43] <Kamion> {{{ branch to do something
[03:43] <mdz> yes, but we didn't get to seeing an example
[03:43] <Kamion>   apt (0.6.0) unstable; urgency=low
[03:43] <Kamion>   ...
[03:43] <Kamion> }}}
[03:44] <mdz> the way 0.6 worked, I was merging everything I did in 0.5.x into it for many versions
[03:44] <mdz> so they really were parallel
[03:44] <Kamion> some notation around there to be clear about where you branched from, too
[03:44] <Kamion> ah
[03:44] <Kamion> it's just very confusing to the casual skimmer of debian/changelog at the moment
[03:44] <Kamion> anyway :)
[03:44] <mdz> yes, the current changelog ended up slightly weird too
[03:45] <mdz> apt (0.6.26) unstable; urgency=low
[03:45] <mdz>  -- Matt Zimmerman <mdz@debian.org>  Thu, 25 Nov 2004 10:01:16 -0800
[03:45] <mdz> apt (0.5.32) unstable; urgency=low
[03:45] <mdz>  -- Matt Zimmerman <mdz@debian.org>  Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:05:52 -0800
[03:45] <Kamion> ugh, mvo left a bunch of arch junk around in the source package
[03:45] <mdz> ack
[03:45] <mdz> I thought I told him about debian/rules arch-build
[03:45] <mdz> I'll send mail
[03:46] <Kamion> oh wow, didn't realise apt-key was a shell script
[03:46] <mdz> perhaps I'll rewrite it in python-minimal :-)
[03:47] <Kamion> I almost had a heart-attack earlier today when I thought we'd ended up putting the Essential flag on python2.4-minimal
[03:47] <Kamion> then I remembered that python-minimal existed too, and relaxed
[03:48] <mdz> but python-minimal isn't essential either, yet
[03:49] <Kamion> indeed
[03:53] <aj> Kamion: having gpg on the install media was always too big an ask, otherwise sure, should be trivial
[03:54] <calc> Kamion: so rewriting it all in python and going to get rid of perl-base from essential?
[03:54] <Kamion> calc: don't expect that any time soon
[03:55] <Kamion> aj: I suspect we'll end up doing it, whether Debian do or not
[03:55] <Kamion> for the cdrom gpg can go anywhere really, but for netboot it really has to be in the initrd ...
[03:55] <Kamion> since you're getting all udebs after that from the network and you need to auth them
[03:56] <Kamion> and, of course, the netboot initrd needs to be signed with the archive key or something
[03:57] <Kamion> calc: basically Mark wants to be able to use python more or less anywhere feasible, and doesn't want that to be stopped by trivial little details like the shape of essential ;)
[03:58] <calc> cool :)
[03:58] <Kamion> calc: that's a bit different from rewriting a big load of code that works
[03:58] <lamont__> Kamion: any thought that the kernel could be playing with your head here?
[03:58] <lamont__> that is, should I drop said kernel on the sarge install that's there, and see what it does?
[03:58] <Kamion> lamont__: well, a segfault is a segfault; it was pretty clear in the original log
[03:59] <Kamion> that probably won't work, kernel needs to match module udebs
[03:59] <lamont__> yeah - and clearly grabbing some text and using it as a pointer...
[03:59] <Kamion> kernel version needs to match module udeb versions, that is
[03:59] <Kamion> otherwise anna won't retrieve them
[03:59] <lamont__> Kamion: nah - I meant dropping linux-image-2.6.9 on the sarge box
[03:59] <lamont__> it already has sarge installed, you see...
[04:00] <Kamion> guess so, you could try it
[04:09] <lamont__> back in a bit
[04:54] <lamont__> so who uploaded the b0rked l-r-m?
[09:06] <pitti> Morning
[09:09] <Treenaks> hey pitti 
[09:09] <pitti> Hi Treenaks 
[09:09] <pitti> Hi sivang 
[09:09] <mvo> hi pitti 
[09:09] <mvo> hi all :)
[09:26] <sivang> hi pitti ! morning
[09:26] <sivang> morning everybody else
[09:26] <sivang> :)
[09:36] <bob2> 'afternoon
[09:36] <sjoerd> morning 
[09:37] <Treenaks> bobz0r
[09:40] <pitti> Hi!
[09:41] <pitti> Happy Christmas everybody!
[10:25] <sivang> Marry Xmas all :)
[11:19] <sivang> hey ogra , marry xmas
[11:47] <sivang> seb128: was the small size bars on the app panel bug closed? I can't see it anymore..
[11:51] <seb128> sivang: http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4918
[11:55] <sivang> seb128: tnx
[11:56] <Kamion> lamont: which b0rked l-r-m?
[12:12] <sivang> seb128: and the weather report applet bug number? I added a backtrace :)
[12:17] <seb128> already fixed
[12:17] <seb128> I've made a patch yesterday
[12:21] <sivang> seb128: I just did a dist-upgrade, I can stil reproduce - has it not build yet?
[12:24] <seb128> have you upgraded gnome-applets ?
[12:25] <sivang> seb128: I did a dist-upgrade, and it tells me it's the newest version already. what version # should I have?
[12:25] <seb128> a new one
[12:25] <bob2> hah
[12:26] <seb128> if it doesn't update that's the new version is not built yet
[12:26] <seb128> seems to be logical ...
[12:26] <sivang> seb128: 2.8.1-0ubuntu2 is what I have
[12:26] <sivang> seb128: ok :)
[12:26] <seb128> gnome-applets is 2.9.3
[12:26] <seb128> you're using warty ?
[12:26] <sivang> eh ok ;-) I'll wait for it to build..
[12:26] <seb128> hum
[12:27] <sivang> seb128: no! hoary ofcourse 
[12:27] <seb128> warty will not changed ...
[12:27] <seb128> 2.8.1 is the wartt version
[12:28] <seb128> hoary has 2.9 since 1 Nov 2004 for gnome-applets
[12:28] <seb128> no idea on what you have changed on your box
[12:30] <sivang> seb128: dang, apt pinning fooled me. it appears that only this package was still warty's version - upgrading now. Sorry for the hassle..
[12:30] <seb128> np
[12:59] <Kamion> I: Retrieving debootstrap.invalid_dists_hoary_Release.gpg
[12:59] <Kamion> I: Validating debootstrap.invalid_dists_hoary_Release.gpg
[12:59] <Kamion> I: Validating debootstrap.invalid_dists_hoary_Release
[12:59] <Kamion> gpgv: Signature made Thu Dec 23 02:34:16 2004 GMT using DSA key ID 437D05B5
[12:59] <Kamion> gpgv: Can't check signature: public key not found
[12:59] <Kamion> E: Release signed by unknown key (key id 40976EAF437D05B5)
[12:59] <Kamion> rock
[01:00] <mvo> Kamion: hey, cool!
[01:00] <ogra> morning.... merry xmas everybody
[01:00] <Kamion> still have to deal with getting the error messages right for gpg missing, gpg produced no useful output, etc., but it basically works
[01:01] <mvo> ogra: happy xmas
[01:01] <ogra> :)
[01:01] <Kamion> aj: this version of debootstrap does signature-checking only if you pass a --keyring=/etc/apt/trusted.gpg (etc.) argument; if you don't give it a keyring it doesn't do validation. Is that OK with you?
[01:02] <sivang> mvo,ogra : marry xmas
[01:02] <Kamion> I figured that was the least invasive approach considering the wide variety of places where debootstrap is used
[01:07] <Kamion>  Package: python2.4-minimal
[01:07] <Kamion>  Conflicts: python2.4 (<= 2.4-2)
[01:07] <Kamion>  Replaces: python2.4 (<= 2.4-2)
[01:07] <Kamion> doesn't that versioned conflicts make the upgrade stupendously painful?
[01:26] <Kamion> mvo: what happens if a Release file is signed by multiple key ids? (katie's ziyi script supports this, although I don't know if it's used.) At the moment, it looks like a failed signature verification on any one of those signatures will make apt fall over, even if one of the signatures is valid.
[01:31] <mvo> Kamion: I need to look at the code, don't know now. it's probably usefull to have more than one signature on the Release file
[01:48] <mvo> I'm leaving to visit my family. see you all in a couple of days 
[01:48] <mvo> bye
[01:57] <sivang> does anybody know if we support burning audio cds out of the box?
[02:00] <sivang> I mean, from mp3/wav files..
[02:01] <ogra> sivang: nope.....there is no burning app to do that yet
[02:02] <sivang> ogra: ok, so just go and install something from universe, there are planty though :)
[02:03] <ogra> sivang: no gnome2/gtk2 ones currently.......
[02:03] <sivang> ogra: you can always run k3b under gnome :)
[02:03] <ogra> sivang: rhythmbox will have burn support in the near future
[02:03] <sivang> ogra: upstream is doing that?
[02:03] <ogra> yep... i read about it
[02:14] <cenerentola> sivang: are you a rebel?
[02:14] <cenerentola> yesterday u supported x86, today k3b... 
[02:14] <sivang> cenerentola: hehehe
[02:15] <sivang> cenerentola: not actually, just "use the best tool for the job" 
[02:15] <sivang> :))
[02:15] <cenerentola> shut up dude...
[02:15] <sivang> cenerentola: hey, I dind't say it first, Linus did :)
[02:16] <cenerentola> that's why you shouldn't use such pure sentences..
[02:16] <cenerentola> ;)
[02:19] <sivang> cenerentola: :)
[02:28] <lamont> Kamion: version not bumped in the makefile too... taht should really get automated.
[02:29] <Kamion> lamont: aargh
[02:29] <Kamion> will fix
[02:29] <Kamion> and I remembered it the last time I uploaded l-r-m, too
[02:32] <lamont> Kamion: yeah - btw, 'Uploaded' state has been restored to buildLogs/Lists/*
[02:32] <lamont> things shouldn't stay 'Uploaded' for > 30 minutes unless they're (a) NEW, or (b) l-r-m and busted. :-)
[02:36] <Keybuk> pitti: no, I typo'd :p
[02:45] <Kamion> lamont: should be fixed now, sorry about that
[02:45] <lamont> Kamion: np
[02:48] <Kamion> I see I'm not the only one taking advantage of the quietness to fix a pile of infrastructure
[02:57] <lamont> heh
[02:57] <lamont> yeah - this is also "clean up /etc/fstab" day.
[02:58] <lamont> du -sk /org/ubuntu/tree/
[02:58] <lamont> 6121080 /org/ubuntu/tree/
[02:58] <lamont> ouch.  and that's just i386/hoary
[02:58] <lamont> well and warty-*
[02:58] <lamont> and source
[02:59] <lamont> dropping warty proper freed up 2.9GB
[03:00] <Kamion> I've managed to do about half of the work required for full d-i Release.gpg-checking support today, so I'm quite pleased
[03:01] <Kamion> ... and off to do the last couple of pieces of Christmas shopping now
[03:02] <lamont> Kamion: KEWL!
[03:21] <sivang> Kamion: merry Xmas :)
[03:21] <sivang> lamont: you got presents for the kids? :)
[03:30] <cenerentola> Kamion: merry christmas
[03:42] <lamont> hrm... I need something to parse perl in python... :-(
[03:42] <Treenaks> lamont: hmm... libperl wrapped in python
[04:00] <lamont> Treenaks: just trying to find a variable definition in the perl mess for my python code to use... :)
[04:01] <Treenaks> lamont: it sounds like a great coding project for 2005-04-01
[04:06] <lamont> Treenaks: I'm just not sure which camp would be more offended: perl or python
[04:07] <Treenaks> lamont: exactly
[04:15] <smurfix> Hmm, parrot is supposed to be able to do that ... eventually.
[05:52] <sid77> hi
[05:52] <Treenaks> hey sid
[06:33] <Kamion> lamont: any joy with that serial console access?
[06:39] <lamont> Kamion: been hip deep with other things... give me a couple minutes
[06:40] <lamont> 1245 files missing from my ubuntu mirror (with the addition of ia64).  sigh.
[06:40] <lamont> Kamion: I'll go hook it up now.
[06:42] <sid77> anyone: any news on livecd/ppc?
[06:52] <lamont> Kamion: what IP are you coming from?
[06:52] <Kamion> lamont: should be 81.153.126.219
[06:55] <lamont> Kamion: email sent, still arguing with the tty stuff though.
[06:58] <lamont> Kamion: and worst case, I'll wind up moving your login to another machine, which might even have _2_ serial ports to abuse.
[06:59] <Kamion> np
[07:01] <lamont> Kamion: boot up sequence is to be in minicom after invoking the willy-switch (inside joke), interrupt the auto boot, choose efi-shell, then say:
[07:01] <lamont> fs0:
[07:01] <lamont> elilo
[07:02] <lamont> if you try now, you should get an fs0> prompt when you hit return.
[07:02] <lamont> (it wants 'elilo'
[07:02] <lamont> no network plugged in yet
[07:02] <lamont> ssh to ia timing out?
[07:02] <lamont> oh. yeah.  that.
[07:03] <lamont> sec
[07:03] <Kamion> hasn't actually timed out yet, but is sitting at connect()
[07:03] <lamont> doh
[07:03] <lamont> ctl-c and do it again
[07:03] <Kamion> ah, there it goes
[07:03] <lamont> EBADRULE
[07:04] <lamont> fwiw, that's the house web proxy, etc
[07:04] <lamont> most of your activity from that machine is throttled to about 30kbits, which you're sharing with 2 rsyncs
[07:04] <lamont> port 22 traffic is not shaped.
[07:05] <Kamion> what do I do after starting minicom? serial console newbie here ...
[07:06] <Kamion> ah, never mind, got it
[07:08] <Kamion> not much happening after the initrd loads though ...
[07:09] <Kamion> oh, DUH, I selected the VGA option. how do I reboot?
[07:09] <Kamion> and do arrow keys work, even if I can't see the result?
[10:14] <amu> lamont: ping, katie is too fast for me :) i'm upping a package with 5k the size of the orig.tar.gz is 5mb :)
[10:14] <amu> Rejected: kdesdk_3.3.2-1ubuntu1.dsc refers to kdesdk_3.3.2.orig.tar.gz, but I
[10:14] <amu> +can't find it in the queue or in the pool.
[10:21] <lamont> that's why you upload the orig.tar.gz, then the diff.gz, then the .dsc, then the .changes
[10:21] <lamont> or use dput
[10:22] <lamont> truthfully, as long as the .changes is last, katie should wait for it.
[10:22] <Kamion> amu: you forgot to use -sa
[10:22] <lamont> Kamion: well, that would be the other reason
[10:22] <lamont> :-)
[10:23] <Kamion> there's no kdesdk_3.3.2.orig.tar.gz in the pool, and it only gets automatically included in the .changes if the revision part of the version is -0 or -1
[10:23] <Kamion> you should also probably use -0ubuntu1 rather than -1ubuntu1, I suspect
[10:23] <Kamion> so that 3.3.2-1 is considered newer
[10:24] <lamont> Kamion: unless he's merging into 3.3.2-1, of course.
[10:25] <Kamion> well, there's no 3.3.2-1 in Debian, but I guess it depends
[10:27] <amu> hehe yep now upping with dput and -sa ;) 
[10:28] <amu> oh my god line is too slow now
[10:41] <sivang> lamont: I am arguing with my dad, please tell me how much time it takes to travel in a car from Miami to Holywood ?
[10:41] <lamont> miami to hollywood... hrm... call it ~3000 miles give or take.
[10:42] <sivang> lamont: also, he has just discovered keyhole :) He thinks they are close like the train station to Mataro :)
[10:42] <lamont> your average sane person would therefore take about 3 days of solid driving (averaging 50 miles per hour, or 1200 miles per day)  If you're willing to just make it 'stop for gas', you could drop that to around 2 days
[10:42] <lamont> assuming that you have drivers to switch off.
[10:44] <lamont> if you have family with you, plan on at least a week, or no sex after that.
[10:45] <sivang> lamont: hehe
[10:47] <wasabi_> I assume there has been discussion about whether or not to officially support Mono in Hoary? Trying to find some conversations. ;)
[10:53] <mdz> wasabi_: yes, there has
[10:53] <wasabi_> yes, no, maybe so?
[10:53] <mdz> the consensus, as I recall, was that "mono" was not a first-class thing which should be supported, but that if there were mono applications we should support, they would pull in the mono stuff
[10:53] <mdz> jdub has details
[10:53] <wasabi_> Hmm. Sucky. =(
[10:54] <sivang> mdz: I thknk that's the best approach
[10:54] <sivang> mdz: this is the state currently right? I do have tomboy running...:)
[10:54] <mdz> wasabi_: pardon?
[10:54] <wasabi_> hmm?
[10:54] <janc> wasabi_ : just write a first-class thing which they need...  ;-)
[10:54] <wasabi_> I think that sucks.
[10:55] <wasabi_> I don't think you're going to get any cool apps written until people stop having to go through hell to install it. ;)
[10:55] <wasabi_> Especially given the less technical aspect of programming useful C# apps.
[10:55] <mdz> I'm fairly certain there are already useful applications written, and packaged in universe even
[10:56] <mdz> and it's quite likely that we'll decide to support some of them for Hoary
[10:56] <wasabi_> well that's cool then.
[10:56] <mdz> so your attitude is doubly unnecessary
[10:56] <sivang> wasabi_: what is so good in c# that python don't have?
[10:56] <wasabi_> im not getting into that.
[10:56] <mdz> sivang: they're quite different
[10:57] <sivang> wasabi_: I would suffice for a link to enlighten me :)
[10:57] <wasabi_> mdz, sorry then... b ut that's a bit how I feel. I sort of see "java support", or ".net support" as something you could support, for hte good of ISVs
[10:57] <wasabi_> But then, im not on your side of the fence, and have no idea. ;)
[10:57] <wasabi_> sivang, what does perl offer over python?
[10:58] <sivang> wasabi_:  huh?
[10:59] <wasabi_> it's just as valid of a question as yours was, really.
[11:07] <calc> how are the java clones doing?
[11:10] <wasabi_> not too good imo
[11:11] <wasabi_> no way they can keep up
[11:11] <calc> yea :\
[11:11] <wasabi_> not enough interest being generated.
[11:11] <calc> mono seems to be doing much better since clr/etc is standardized
[11:11] <wasabi_> yeah.
[11:11] <wasabi_> i might say that it seems like the community is more focused.
[11:11] <wasabi_> I mean, java is very well understood.
[11:12] <wasabi_> I guess it probably has to do a lot with all the people who really need java on linux, just use sun's vm.
[11:12] <wasabi_> ms.net ain't gonna run on linux. ;0
[11:13] <calc> yea
[11:13] <wasabi_> I guess im fine with that. I don't mind.
[11:13] <wasabi_> I wish sun had better redist rights.
[11:13] <calc> even if it was redistributable couldn't use it for anything in a dist
[11:14] <wasabi_> very few people actually write linux apps in java.
[11:14] <calc> since it would still be stuck in non-free as opposed to not even being in there
[11:14] <wasabi_> they write java apps.
[11:14] <wasabi_> yeah. Well.. we have enough free stuff to write real dist programs with.
[11:14] <wasabi_> GCJ is fine, Classpath is Good Enough.
[11:14] <wasabi_> Java-gnome rounds out the GUI.
[11:14] <calc> ok
[11:15] <wasabi_> BUt, the stuff I use it for, it's not adequite for.
[11:15] <wasabi_> ejb, tomcat, etc.
[11:15] <wasabi_> i did the mono remoting example yesterday, and almost died. =(
[11:15] <wasabi_> equivilent of at least 100 lines of java.
[11:15] <wasabi_> in like, 2.
 sivang, what does perl offer over python?
[11:17] <ogra> wasabi_: its more mature
[11:17] <wasabi_> ogra, doesn't noticible effect any apps.
[11:17] <ogra> wasabi_: you find it in smaller environments where py doesnt fit
[11:17] <wasabi_> noticibly
[11:18] <ogra> wasabi_: and i think it currently has the wider list  of modules.....
[11:18] <calc> perl offers obsfucation too :)
[11:18] <ogra> but that will change eventually
[11:18] <wasabi_> ogra, then why are ubuntu apps prefered in python? (read that sompleace)
[11:19] <ogra> wasabi_: python is great... i dont say perl is better...but has some advantages....
[11:19] <ogra> as py has :)
[11:19] <wasabi_> well, you just renforce my C# thing.
[11:19] <wasabi_> it's good for some things python isn't, but they can all pretty much get the same jobs done
[11:20] <ogra> yep.... you can do it also in C or assembler ....
[11:20] <wasabi_> im a fan of presenting people with the widest array of tools. Differnet tools for different people.
[11:20] <wasabi_> And if all those people develop for your platform, you're better than if only a subset did.
[11:20] <ogra> or code it in 1 and 0 if aou are _really_ smart
[11:21] <ogra> oh, another one for perl.... loads of debian is perl based as perl was the traditional script lang for years there
[11:22] <ogra> even this will change slowly in ubuntu i guess
[11:44] <lamont> mdz: what did we decide on 2113?