[03:16] <hornbeck> hello
[03:16] <hornbeck> anyone around?
[08:34] <froud> morn
[08:37] <enrico> hello froud1
[08:37] <enrico> hello froud!
[08:48] <froud> bright and sunny in johannesburg following a night of rain
[08:56] <froud> enrico, I got http://lento.uncasino.it/enrico/store/faq-svk.tar.gz
[08:56] <froud> thanks
[08:56] <enrico> bright and sunny in Kaohsiung as well: I have to install xsnow to understand we're in christmas time :)
[08:56] <enrico> froud: no problem!
[08:57] <enrico> froud: please use the list or IRC for any problems you might have
[08:57] <froud> snow what's that
[08:57] <froud> :-)
[08:59] <froud> enrico, I know I can post patches to the list, but how do you like your patches?
[08:59] <froud> ie
[08:59] <froud> do you preffer a person to make all changes to a file and patch
[08:59] <froud> or make all changes everywhere and make one big patch
[09:08] <froud> sivang, boker tov
[09:09] <sivang> froud: hey shaun , whassup? :)
[09:09] <sivang> froud: didn't know you were speaking hebrew...
[09:10] <sivang> enrico: morning!!!
[09:10] <sivang> enrico: I see you put a great deal of work into the wiki in the last couple of days, got any sleep? :)
[09:11] <froud> sivang, betag ma ata choshev
[09:12] <froud> sivang, I lived there for 10 years
[09:13] <froud> I got the src's thanks to enrico
[09:16] <froud> I was just looking at ubuntu.xsl
[09:16] <froud> <xsl:import href="/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/xhtml/chunk.xsl"/>
[09:16] <froud> would it not be better to now use
[09:16] <froud> /usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/
[09:17] <froud> xhtml.chunk.xsl
[09:17] <froud> xhtml/chunk.xsl
[09:18] <froud> That way in future upgrades of the xsl ubuntu.xsl won't break
[09:19] <sivang> froud: ok, now, lemme get my thoughts straigt..Are you a former israeli?
[09:48] <enrico> froud: IDo as you prefer.
[09:48] <enrico> froud: I'd say do as you prefer.
[09:49] <enrico> You can make a full patch, then I can apply it to the svk shapshot I have as another branch, and do the merge
[09:49] <sivang> froud: yes
[09:49] <sivang> froud: It seems that we didn't know much about docbook but went striaght ahead and started hacking on it,
[09:49] <froud> enrico, ok so I will make patches on a per file level
[09:49] <sivang> enrico: can we get svn access for froud ?
[09:50] <enrico> froud: I just made a branch for you corresponding to the checkout I gave you
[09:50] <sivang> enrico: since when is that checkout?
[09:50] <enrico> sivang: As soon as John is back
[09:50] <enrico> sivang: sorry: export
[09:50] <froud> enrico, ok
[09:50] <sivang> eh
[09:50] <sivang> enrico: do you know if you had the lastest version ?
[09:50] <enrico> I'm so happy with this svk.
[09:50] <sivang> svk?
[09:50] <enrico> sivang: I can tell you the revision number
[09:50] <sivang> the mirror thingy?
[09:51] <sivang> enrico: do tell me
[09:51] <enrico> sivang: http://svk.elixus.org/
[09:51] <enrico> I can branch and merge and do whatever I want locally, then when I want I can sync with upstream in a big commit
[09:51] <sivang> ah!
[09:51] <enrico> It can use meld as a conflict resolution tool as well
[09:51] <sivang> arch for svn devotees
[09:51] <sivang> :)
[09:51] <froud> enrico, svk is cool
[09:52] <froud> is th ebuild env for docs not updated
[09:52] <enrico> yes!  It also accesses CVS repositories, and they plan to access Arch in the future
[09:52] <enrico> froud: afaik, everyone is testing them with yelp
[09:52] <froud> I see the xsl:import is <xsl:import href="/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/xhtml/chunk.xsl"/>
[09:52] <froud> this is old
[09:53] <enrico> froud: you're welcome to fix it
[09:53] <froud> yes yelp is fun
[09:53] <froud> Shaun       did some great work there
[09:53] <froud> enrico, problem is it dont help if I fix it and the build env does not have the same path
[09:54] <sivang> eh Shaun McKane, an open source hero :)
[09:54] <froud> also the makefile only builds html
[09:54] <froud> what about pdf
[09:54] <enrico> froud: I don't know if anyone is using the makefile at all
[09:54] <sivang> I am :)
[09:55] <enrico> I imagine when we need to export HTML or PDF, we'll see about the makefile
[09:55] <enrico> sivang: ah, oh, cool!
[09:55] <froud> enrico, make file is best way
[09:55] <sivang> I've had to modify it by hand to produce the html for the deb pacakjge..
[09:55] <enrico> froud: if you master the DocBook build thing, please update the makefile as well
[09:55] <sivang> froud: would you be willing to add your changes? :)
[09:55] <froud> yes and more but I need to discuss it with you guys
[09:56] <froud> no point me doing what people dont want
[09:56] <sivang> ok, what have you had in mind?
[09:56] <froud> my tool chain is docbook dtd, xsl, saxon, fop
[09:57] <froud> you guys need xi
[09:57] <froud> so I can use xsltproc
[09:57] <froud> my makefile will need all these
[09:57] <enrico> froud: if it's in Ubuntu, we can put it as a build-dep
[09:57] <enrico> froud: if it's not in Ubuntu, it can be a problem
[09:57] <froud> so fop may be the problem
[09:58] <sivang> froud: xsltproc is already a dependecy for that package.
[09:58] <froud> but the build env for docs should be seperate from ubuntu build
[09:59] <sivang> please elaborate
[09:59] <froud> The makefile enables us to produce presentational targets
[09:59] <sivang> froud: also, shaun told me we where abusing docbook in a way never be seen before - he specifically regerred to the inline image inclusion, do you know anything about it?
[10:00] <froud> yes
[10:00] <sivang> enrico: we need to fix shaun also an account, when john comes back from vegas :)
[10:00] <froud> I will mark this for fixing
[10:00] <froud> where is your issue tracker
[10:02] <enrico> froud: the mailing list
[10:02] <enrico> froud: or bugzilla
[10:02] <enrico> froud: there's a 'documentation
[10:02] <froud> your bugzilla
[10:02] <enrico> froud: there's a 'documentation' item in bugzilla
[10:02] <froud> uri
[10:02] <enrico> bugzilla.ubuntu.com
[10:03] <sivang> bugzilla would be good
[10:03] <sivang> although I would rather replace it with malone :)
[10:03] <froud> ok cool
[10:03] <froud> my thinking is that people should be able to build docbook for html and pdf regardless of the ubuntu dist
[10:04] <froud> then there is the build for ubuntu itself
[10:04] <froud> three make targets
[10:04] <sivang> froud: so you mean, make our docs buildable in any distro? I am not sure I am following you...
[10:04] <froud> placing this make in the ubuntu src tree whould not be a problem if it is dcoumented
[10:05] <froud> sivang, there are times when you want the docs to build outside of ubuntu
[10:05] <sivang> like in suse? :)
[10:06] <froud> yet you still want to be able to package it for ubuntu
[10:06] <froud> yes, lik ein SuSE :-0
[10:06] <enrico> froud: sure, the docs should build outside of ubuntu, but they should be built on ubuntu as well, so that they can be packaged in the distro
[10:06] <froud> enrico,  yesssss
[10:06] <enrico> I don't know if the autobuilders allow packages from universe: I can ask if you want
[10:06] <enrico> or maybe sivan knows
[10:07] <froud> The only component is Apache FOP
[10:07] <sivang> enrico: we need to check, I can check each dependecy see where it stired.
[10:07] <froud> I dont think its in ubuntu
[10:07] <sivang> Apache FOP?
[10:07] <sivang> froud: do you have a link to it?
[10:08] <froud> Yes this is the only component that will cause a problem if it is not in ubuntu
[10:08] <froud> http://xml.apache.org/fop/
[10:09] <sivang> froud: do we really need all those formats?
[10:09] <sivang> froud: I mean, xsltproc can do PDF i think 
[10:09] <sivang> enrico: am I wrong?
[10:09] <froud> enrico, btw since ubuntu is using GNOME the makefile can also build for yelp
[10:09] <froud> sivang, wrong
[10:09] <froud> and right
[10:10] <sivang> froud: so there is no single thing that can make PDF in ubuntu without inclusion of FOP?
[10:10] <froud> xsltproc will create an xsl:fo file
[10:10] <sivang> eh, and then FOP can feed on it?
[10:10] <froud> that gets transformed to pdf rtf etc
[10:10] <sivang> rtf...
[10:10] <sivang> hmm
[10:10] <enrico> xmlto
[10:10] <enrico> let me look more
[10:11] <enrico> apt-cache show xmlto
[10:11] <sivang> enrico: there must be something already in ubuntu allowing for at least half of the formats FOP supports.
[10:11] <enrico> that should do everything, take care of everything
[10:11] <enrico> it's in Debian, though, dunno about Ubuntu
[10:11] <froud> we lose the docbook fop extensions
[10:11] <enrico> http://cyberelk.net/tim/xmlto/
[10:11] <froud> we will lose
[10:11] <enrico> froud: with xmlto, you mean?
[10:12] <sivang> froud: we can try suggest it for the seeds..
[10:12] <enrico> I suggest to consult mako on this
[10:12] <sivang> true
[10:12] <sivang> mako : ping
[10:12] <enrico> he should be the best person to ask about DocBook toolchains to use in Ubuntu
[10:12] <sivang> yes, he already familiar with them in debian.
[10:12] <froud> For DVI, PDF and PostScript output, Sebastian Rahtz's PassiveTeX  is required.
[10:12] <froud> I'm not sure we want to complicate the toolchain that much
[10:13] <froud> enrico, yes with xmlto
[10:14] <froud> echo $CLASSPATH
[10:14] <froud> /usr/share/saxon-6.5.3/saxon.jar:/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/extensions/saxon65.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/build/fop.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/batik.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/xalan-2.4.1.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/xercesImpl-2.2.1.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/JimiProClasses.jar:/usr/share/java/fop-0.20.5/lib/avalon-framework-cvs-20020806.jar
[10:15] <froud> :/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current/extensions/
[10:15] <froud> we lose this
[10:16] <sivang> froud: hmm
[10:16] <froud> my toolchain is all java, but I can move to xsltproc for most suff
[10:16] <froud> the problem is if we need PDF
[10:17] <froud> do we need it?
[10:17] <froud> would we like to have it?
[10:17] <froud> if not then there is no problem
[10:18] <froud> if yes then we need an xsl:fo rendering engine that is in ubuntu
[10:18] <froud> or include one
[10:19] <froud> fop is widely used
[10:20] <froud> do we have to distribute an xsl:fo engine?
[10:20] <froud> not sure it is needed
[10:20] <froud> from user perspective they will set their own toolchain
[10:20] <froud> they will by default be able to transform the xhtml
[10:21] <froud> and yelp does not need anything except the db xml
[10:21] <sivang> ChrisH: marry xmas , hoo hoo hoo !
[10:21] <sivang> ChrisH: Feeling better?
[10:21] <ChrisH> ;)
[10:21] <ChrisH> yup
[10:21] <sivang> how is our loved torf?
[10:21] <ChrisH> torf is back up... :)
[10:21] <sivang> mail started to work again around 3am
[10:22] <ChrisH> Just the on-mainboard-NIC is complete trash. Took me another hour to find that.
[10:22] <sivang> ChrisH: god, a new mb?
[10:22] <ChrisH> It negotiates at 10 Mbps/half-duplex.
[10:22] <froud> yipes they still make nics like that
[10:22] <ChrisH> Sure a new mainboard. 2x new mainboard, 2x new CPU (P4/2.4 GHz), 2x new RAM
[10:22] <sivang> froud: yelp does fine with db/xml
[10:22] <froud> sivang, yes
[10:22] <ChrisH> sivang: Everything was broken after the CPUs got trashed.
[10:22] <sivang> froud: but PDF is definetly something we want to support I think
[10:23] <ChrisH> froud: Indeed. Cheap stuff that keeps admins occupied. :)
[10:23] <froud> OK, I will do like this
[10:23] <sivang> froud: did you get the branch enrico preparedyou?
[10:23] <froud> I will create make targets for everything
[10:23] <froud> sivang, yes
[10:23] <sivang> froud: many people like pdf to print and stuff..
[10:23] <froud> then you guys can decide
[10:24] <froud> hows about docbook 4.3 can I use it
[10:25] <froud> you have 
[10:25] <froud> <!DOCTYPE book PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.1.2//EN" 
[10:25] <froud> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.1.2/docbookx.dtd">
[10:25] <froud> want about <!DOCTYPE book PUBLIC "-//OASIS//DTD DocBook XML V4.3//EN" 
[10:25] <froud> 	"http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/docbookx.dtd">
[10:25] <mako> hey, what's up
[10:26] <sivang> yo mako dude :)
[10:26] <sivang> marry xmas 
[10:26] <enrico> froud: I'd say, let's think about pdf when we need it :)
[10:26] <froud> ok no need for it
[10:26] <enrico> I'll have to leave in like 5 minutes
[10:26] <enrico> mako: talking about DocBook toolchain for Ubuntu
[10:26] <sivang> mako: froud has noted to our attention that he uses Apache FOP for his doc toolchain,
[10:27] <sivang> mako: we checked and FOP doesn't appear to be packaged for Ubuntu,
[10:27] <sivang> mako: do you know of anything already available that produces pdfs out of db?
[10:27] <mako> not even in universe?
[10:27] <mako> yeah, i use normal walsh's modular print and html stylesheets
[10:27] <mako> docbook-xsl
[10:27] <sivang> mako: that's produces PDFs also?
[10:27] <mako> yes
[10:27] <froud> mako, it's only if we want pdf
[10:28] <froud> mako, they make xsl:fo
[10:28] <mako> the print stylesheets will make pdfs
[10:28] <froud> you still need rendering engine
[10:28] <froud> mako uri
[10:28] <mako> trust me, they can make pdfs
[10:28] <mako> froud: i use xmlto i believe
[10:29] <froud> ah, that makes sense now
[10:29] <mako> froud: dude, i wrote my thesis in docbook
[10:29] <froud> PassiveTex
[10:29] <mako> i printed it as pdfs :)
[10:29] <mako> pdflatex
[10:29] <froud> sure
[10:29] <mako> yeah, it goes db->latex->dvi->pdflatex i believe
[10:29] <froud> do we really want to complicate the toolchain like this
[10:30] <mako> like what?
[10:30] <froud> my chain is saxon (xsltproc), dtd, xsl, fop
[10:30] <froud> so for pdf
[10:30] <froud> xml > xsl:fo > pdf
[10:31] <mako> but will that work with the modular stylesheets?
[10:31] <froud> yes
[10:31] <cenerentola> mako: can i ask what was it all about, your thesis?
[10:31] <froud> the problem is we dont have an xsl:fo rendering engin in ubuntu
[10:31] <mako> cenerentola: http://mako.yukidoke.org/projects/collablit
[10:31] <mako> froud: file a wishlist bug in bugzilla and assigne it to mako
[10:31] <mako> mako@canonical.com
[10:32] <froud> ok
[10:32] <mako> i'm not convinced it's really better
[10:32] <mako> all that i care about is that a pdf pops out the end
[10:32] <froud> no just easier
[10:32] <mako> i run a single command, i get a pdf
[10:32] <froud> yes
[10:32] <mako> i'm not exactly sure how much easier you're going to make it :)
[10:32] <froud> I will create make file
[10:32] <froud> make pdf
[10:32] <mako> i already h ave one
[10:33] <mako> well several
[10:33] <froud> mean for svn
[10:33] <sivang> mako: for creating how many tagets?
[10:33] <sivang> or what targets?
[10:33] <mako> listen guys, i have to go catch a train
[10:33] <sivang> mako: going back to airport? :)
[10:33] <mako> i'm going to barcelona
[10:33] <sivang> mako: again! :)
[10:33] <mako> in any case, email me if you need anything more or mention my name.. i'll read the log
[10:33] <sivang> mako: bon voyage
[10:34] <mako> froud: it can go in ubuntu if it is has non-free dependencies
[10:34] <sivang> mako: my regards to this wonderful city
[10:34] <froud> mako, apche lic
[10:34] <mako> is is java?
[10:34] <froud> he he
[10:34] <mako> does it run with a free java runtime?
[10:34] <mako> if the answer is no, it can go in ubuntu
[10:34] <froud> can do
[10:35] <cenerentola> babbaro: what course was it?
[10:35] <froud> Java 1.2.x or later Runtime Environment
[10:37] <froud> ok this is not important, can sort it later
[10:37] <enrico> froud: right: let's settle with what we can have for now, which is already enough to get started
[10:37] <enrico> the moment we'll be unsatisfied, we can address it
[10:38] <froud> ok so patches will come on a file basis. I'll look at the image stuff Shaun was complaining about.
[10:38] <froud> I will put patches in bugzilla
[10:38] <froud> tis better, right
[10:39] <sivang> froud: thanks, I don't want to piss him off 
[10:39] <sivang> :)
[10:39] <sivang> he was like "dude, you are abusing docbook in a never to be seen before way" :))
[10:41] <froud> you do have some strange things in this source
[10:41] <froud> but hey we'll fix it :-0
[10:41] <froud> :-)
[10:41] <froud> merry xmaaaaaas
[10:42] <froud> african greetings to everyone
[10:43] <sivang> froud: marry xmas!
[02:42] <cenerentola> does someone know the name of a web-map? i mean one of those maps, that show something's [like a surname]  concentration..
[05:52] <sid77> hi