=== sid77 [~sid77@ppp-110-163.30-151.libero.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc [01:58] merry xmas === enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc === hornbeck [~hornbeck@adsl-69-155-172-150.dsl.okcyok.swbell.net] has joined #ubuntu-doc === froud [~sean@ndn-165-141-238.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc [09:34] African greetings === ChrisH [~chaas@gw.workaround.org] has joined #ubuntu-doc [10:35] hornbeck : ping [10:46] whats the process, does everyone document in wiki first, then how do we propose to get the wiki stuff to docbook? [10:50] froud: Hi... :) I'm a bit confused about your posting. It sounded like the user's guide and the quick guide contain the same things. [10:50] To me the diff is so small [10:51] but then remember I'm new [10:51] I am looking at the docbook xml files in svn [10:51] froud: No problem really. We just talked those two documents over a dozen times. That's why I wanted to know. [10:51] but seems you gys do it differently [10:51] you do it in wiki [10:51] froud: The quick guide is just a directory in the current repository because nobody has yet created an own repository for the quick guide. [10:51] the wiki has most of the stuff neded for the UG [10:52] That's fine there should be only one repos for docs [10:52] froud: IMHO the Wiki is a mess of documents that should be organised. [10:52] want my opinion? [10:52] Sure [10:53] 1. wiki 2 docbook a mission not wanted [10:53] 2. make one file set and use docbook profiles [10:53] 3. resuse content amap [10:53] reuse [10:53] I have a WC of userguide that is now valid and well formed [10:54] [1] Probably it's not a good idea to stuff everything into docbook that is now on the Wiki. But at least we should have some organised document that we can give out to end users. [10:54] transforms well in yelp, to xhtml/html and pdf [10:54] WC? [10:54] Working Copy [10:54] The wiki need organization but will do then in the port to docbook [10:55] hey, what with svn it is now up [10:55] but [10:55] I cannot svn cat [10:55] I can svn list [10:55] I'm confused. Are you pro or con moving wiki contents to docbook? [10:55] I see no trunk, tags, or branch [10:55] I think wiki is a waste of time [10:56] GDP has given you a receipe follow it [10:56] At least Wiki is nearly impossible to use for large documents like user's guides, FAQ or such. You need revision control. [10:56] Do everything in docbook and transform from there [10:56] I hadn't used a wiki for documentation anyway probably. [10:56] yes all work should be in svn [10:57] All major OSS projects workin in docbook under cvs or svn [10:57] I'm used to that, too. [10:58] In Ubuntu some things are different. ;) [10:58] not good to break a good dev method [10:58] baz[aar] instead of svn/cvs. Wiki instead of well-formed pages. But otoh Ubuntu is quite new and perhaps some of the methods work better. I don't know yet. [10:59] ChrisH, I think that it is better to work in docbook src we have many more options this way [10:59] in wiki we are limited [10:59] At least we need to get going on the docbook documents. And I was just arguing because many people have been talking to screw everything that has been worked on and do it differently. Which obviously led to writers drop their pens and do nothing. And that's roughly where we are currently. [10:59] Wiki is more a draft place or a place to organise. I think it's okay for that purpose. [11:00] All "serious" documentation will probably be done in docbook. [11:00] Yes, but we have to port it. I don't know of any tool that has a parser capable of doing this [11:00] Wiki to docbook? There is one the other way round. [11:00] drfat in docbook under svn control [11:00] what copy paste [11:01] But it's pretty useless IMO. The Wiki is cluttered and unorganised. If you want to write a document regarding one topic you need to get the pieces together anyway. [11:01] Wiki is okay for "MP3 does not work". But you can hardly give my mother-in-law a copy of the Wiki and tell her to be happy about it. [11:01] Ok well I'm hitting the docbook hard [11:02] My vision is to have a user and admin guide that can be printed and sold to people who what to buy it [11:02] The same sources will be used for the dist [11:02] Most of the documentation (as we discussed in Mataro) will be online. Perhaps some day the Quick Guide will be printed and shipped with the CDs. But none of the documents that are written here are intended to be sold. [11:03] Although I could imagine that in a year someone (outside the doc team) comes out with "Ubuntu in a Nutshell" from O'Reilly. :) [11:03] That's one side I am interested in :-0 [11:03] people do buy hard copies of documents [11:03] I don't think many people here intend to do it for the money. But talk to Mark. :) [11:04] ChrisH, explain to me how your svn is oorganized is there a tags, branch, trunk ? [11:04] Mark wont mind he will put the money back to the project [11:05] As most writers here have neither used DocBook/XML nor Subversion before this is still straightforward. We have not tags or branches yet. And the Canonical people are "motivating" us to get the whole document into baz - where things will be handled much more differently either. [11:05] baz? [11:05] [money] As long as the document is shipped for free and interested users can buy hardcopies to sponsor the project... that's perfect. [11:05] that's wat I mean [11:05] baz = bazaar. An "arch" derivative that is developed by Canonical to replace all existing repository systems. [11:06] well we can use it, but is it better than SVN [11:06] I didn't like arch that much, yet. But as everything else is handled in arch/baz we probably don't have that much of a choice. ;) [11:06] yes we do [11:06] this is OSS [11:06] arch versus svn is really a religious question. Even worse than Amiga versus Atari, Vi versus Emacs and Linux versus Windows. [11:07] more people use svn [11:07] I'm very happy with svn. Canonical will give us a sandbox in the next days/weeks to play with it and we can decide whether we move or not. [11:07] for the writers who are not technical there are GUI's [11:07] Let's be open-minded. If it's nice, let's use it. Some aspects are pretty neat. [11:07] Do you know a GUI for writing DocBook/XML? conglomerate doesn't count. [11:08] I know conglomerate [11:08] I was going to be part ofthe team [11:08] but opted out [11:08] I did not like the politics [11:08] I use Oxygen XML Editor [11:08] but XXE is a good tool for those that want WYSIOO [11:09] oxygen? How free is it? [11:09] It's not [11:09] Bad. [11:09] but it is the best and cheapest on the market [11:09] Suports RNG [11:09] People who are volunteers will hardly spend money for working for free. [11:09] How much would it be? [11:09] has xslt debug [11:10] cheaper than xml spy [11:10] So only half a billion euros? [11:10] emacs=psgmls [11:10] is good :-) [11:10] No see http://www.inwords.co.za/products.html [11:10] click through from there [11:11] IMHO the best way to hack docbook is in the source [11:13] I'm doing it in the VI and it can become a little confusing. [11:13] So as i understand it Canconical will force arch. When is thi scheduled [11:13] Do the writers know arch? [11:13] is there a gui front-end? [11:14] if not then I think it will be difficult no matter how good arch is [11:14] not everyone knows to use the command line, especially writers. that's my experience. Only nuts like us [11:20] It's not forced really. If we decide that it's bullshit we will screw it. [11:21] Nobody knows arch yet. It's the second project of Canonical. Ubuntu and Bazaar. [11:21] Look at www.canonical.com [11:21] How long before ithappens [11:21] Also I assume that everyone here uses svn from the command line. [11:21] Sandbox in January. No fixed schedule. [11:22] Hmmm I will install it here and checkit [11:22] Ok now I have one big patch to give [11:22] I was going to do it on a per file basis [11:23] but seeing as there are so many changes [11:23] and my patch makes userguide valid and well-formed, perhaps I should just do one big patch [11:24] what do you think? [11:24] That's the largest difference in arch/baz. No single files. Everything in a directory will be committed. There is "svn add". [11:24] Sure, make it valid! :) [11:24] s/There is/There is *no*/ [11:24] Ok so I will send one big patch === ChrisH is off to the parents-in-law [11:26] sure c ya === skyrider [~skyrider@195.128.178.150] has joined #ubuntu-doc === skyrider [~skyrider@195.128.178.150] has left #ubuntu-doc [] === falco [~falco@a81-84-137-51.netcabo.pt] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:05] sivang, shalom [05:07] hehe [05:08] they are not, but if we want them to host the repo, we will have to use arch [05:08] im look at arch now [05:08] I see there is a GUI for those who dont like command line [05:09] its called archway [05:09] he's the patch https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=4978 [05:10] but as I understand the arch stuff wont be for a while and even then the doc team have to say yes to it [05:10] so I think we should impliment proper svn [05:11] we can always move to arch later if the people want to use it [05:13] I posted a proposal to setup svn on th emailing list [05:14] ChrisH, thinks that the wiki stuf is all a mess, need organization [05:15] I think he agrees tis better to use svn and do work in docbook [05:15] I agree, I can't see th epoint in doing in wiki and then trying toport [05:15] to port [05:15] there is no easy way to do that [05:16] I agree also [05:16] +1 [05:16] We should then just continue using the svn server, possibly hosted in a relaiable place, [05:16] do work in docbook, [05:17] and use the wiki (as I always said) to sketch padding and scribbles. [05:17] ChrisH: you here? [05:17] umm we need to keep docbook src in svn and scribble in that source [05:17] NOT WIKI [05:17] sivang, its a waste of time [05:18] with svn we can easily see everyones changes [05:18] with wiki we cannot [05:18] with svn we can do many more things [05:18] I meant, use the wikias an errata souce :) [05:18] source [05:18] wiki limts us [05:18] wiki = README.TXT , last minute, doc missed stuff :) [05:18] wiki should only hold information about the project and doc project [05:18] nothing more then that [05:18] yes [05:19] and we alos come up a plan to allow people to use the wiki when they wanna start contribute and don't yet wanna deal with svn, they go and start. [05:19] as you know I am new, so I am not sure if perhaps all my suggestions are just too much [05:19] this is something we discussed longly in Mataro, the low barrier to joinig.. [05:20] basically, these are issues we all have bothered much with - [05:20] including mataro, mako you around? [05:20] MOst projects use cvs or svn and docbbook [05:20] this is my preference also, [05:20] the GDP project has a templat ewe can follow [05:20] wiki should only used to proposal and last minutes and stuff and errata [05:21] agreed ++++++1 [05:21] we may want to talk to shaun about this, he is longly not satisfied with the current state of the GDP, and noted to me he would like to maybe devise some new plans [05:21] He also doesn't like too much the GNOME doc guidelines, he thinks they need some kind of refreshment. [05:22] as I said I hope all the proposals and changes I am asking for are not going to annoy folks [05:23] Yes Shaun will help. He has much experience [05:23] but I think we are talking about the basic infrustructure more than anything here [05:25] sivang, you there? [05:26] yes [05:26] thought I lost you [05:26] no , I'm here although doing 100 things in parallel :) [05:27] he he know th efeeling [05:28] Anywayat patch makes the userguide files valid and well formed. [05:28] The XInclude namespace is now declared in all docs [05:28] anywa, when making suggestion please review old threads and stuff, this is a discussion that usually comes up whenever a new person comes and wants to contrib :) [05:28] froud: that fixes the DocBook abuse? :) [05:29] the thing, we still don't have a valid to my tsate team infrastructure, but hopefully we would get there, [05:29] btw has canonical not provided a nice web gui to use bazzar? [05:29] I dont think one should have to go back on threads for this stuff, point is it was talked about and nothing done. This time I hope we can do something about it [05:30] Could be, but I still think a fat client is required [05:30] I offer my services to get this right [05:31] way I understand is that writers have pretty much put down there pens because of these issues [05:31] so to drive fears off from people who feel initimated by a "new" system :) [05:31] what do you mean a fat clinet? [05:31] Ok lets break this one step at a time. [05:32] sure thing [05:32] peple have stopped work because of these problems right? [05:33] not good [05:33] forget the past. let's fix it [05:33] impliment svn in secure space [05:33] impliment in accordance with standard [05:34] OSS people know how this stuff works [05:34] and for those that dont we will support [05:34] if people want arch then we can easily move to arch [05:35] but we dont know when or if we will use arch [05:35] this also had been thought of, but we are currently a small group of contributor,s [05:35] small or not we need to collaborate effectively [05:35] and to facilitate for all the people who would be able to inly contribute on the wiki it would take too much manpower to compenstate. [05:35] the revision management system is the hub for dev [05:35] inly = only [05:35] I dont care if it is cvs, svn or arch [05:36] we should not come to a position where people stop writing because of decision problems [05:37] majority of projects use this system and it works [05:37] now I dont have the power to change this so who will? [05:39] sivang, I feel like I'm having a monologue here [05:39] no I'm still her e:) [05:40] so what to do? === sivang still reading and trying to understand :) [05:41] ok, we need to have a relaiable place for the svn, who voulnenteers? :) [05:41] or maybe can we have a svn reop hosted in the canonical farm? [05:41] I thought it could be at canonical. If not I can ask at TSF if we can use edison [05:42] who approves such stuff on TSF? [05:42] I will have to wait for Thomas Black he is my contact point [05:42] eh right [05:43] Which ever the case, if I can get a user access to the server I can have a structured svn up and configured in 30 mins [05:43] don't you think this should be discussed with mark also? and people who are incharge of the technical sites of ubuntu? The Technical Board :) [05:44] ? [05:44] or elmo for that matter. [05:44] whoever, but a decision must be made [05:44] sure [05:44] I agree [05:45] I cant understand why people are worried about barrier to entry [05:45] most of the people contributing to OSS know revision management and docbook [05:45] well, this is also one of mark and other people in the projet - So I'd rather not subestimate it.. [05:46] froud: the thing is, the whole ponit with launchpad and other stuff in ubuntu is to lower the contribution to barrier by the community. [05:46] thus, you have rosetta for transaltion, baz as the frontend to arch etc.. [05:46] I dont see how bring it to a halt has done that :-) [05:47] no ofcourse, I am not talking about the current state, which is bad. [05:47] that's fine there ar gui's to cvs and svn [05:47] so we should : [05:47] 1) first have a WORKING repo somewhere safe and technically able - canonica.com [05:47] +1 [05:47] 2) Make for the low technical people to use our revisiong management stools. [05:48] +1 [05:48] 3) Bring this to the CC / TB meeting for approbal. [05:48] +1 [05:48] 4) start working as hell!! :) [05:48] +1 [05:48] +1 = I will help you [05:48] ok, great and thanks :) [05:49] btw, I know cory burger is working on understanding arch good, to write a new guide to baz so doc team could maybe switch to it. [05:49] we should also probably talk to him about this, see what state he is currently is with the new guide maybe,. [05:49] what do you think? [05:50] depnds on the time. as I said, we can always migrate to arch, svn I can have up in 30mins [05:50] Why don't we start a thread on the mailing list to see what peopel thingk? [05:50] as for training [05:50] see [05:50] froud: do you have aplace to put it already? [05:50] froud: I mean, a websoace accessible with an easy domain ? :) [05:50] http://svnbook.red-bean.com/ [05:51] red-bean is yours? [05:51] I can temp put it at TSF, but I would like to ask first [05:51] no red bean is not mine [05:51] its a book on svn [05:51] ah ok, [05:51] there's your training [05:51] it's command line, but good [05:51] ok, that should be kept in mind. [05:51] how is the guide? newbie freidnly? [05:52] then I recomend eSvn http://esvn.umputun.com/ [05:52] the guide is very freindly [05:52] eSvn is the best GUI front end IMHO [05:52] let's start the new conributir page onb the wiki [05:52] and put all this info there, [05:53] url [05:53] so new people would see a streamlined way to start working with us [05:53] ok, I will start a page there, and give you the linkg in 10 minutes. [05:53] what do you wnatto put there? [05:53] want [05:54] The main webpage for the doc team also serves as a "welcome" page, but we should have asomething more instructable [05:54] take a look here: [05:54] froud: are you sure nobody from canonical sent you as a cover agent to the doc team? :))) === sivang starts to connect the pints :) [05:54] points [05:55] nop I am here of my own accord :-) [05:55] see this http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za/project/web-project.html === sid77 [~sid77@ppp-39-163.30-151.libero.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc [05:55] everything you need to get started with the LearnLinux project is togeher in a single place [05:55] hi [05:56] hey sid77 :) [05:56] whasspu? [05:56] hi [05:56] bloated [05:56] why bloatd? [05:56] role me down the corridor [05:56] ehehe [05:56] ate ourselve silly [05:56] froud is also :) [05:56] I can barely move under the load span (or what the right quotation is) === sivang wished he could be at an xmas dinner [05:57] sid77: hehehehehe [05:57] sivang, you want to have something like http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za/project/web-project.html [05:58] oh darn I just did an upgrade, I need to log out and in my sessions, [05:58] brbr [05:58] brb [05:58] ok [05:58] sivang, I'll push for having nethack into ubuntu ;) (jk) [05:58] (can't open the broswer) [05:58] sid77: nethack? [05:58] hehe [05:58] it's a game right? [05:59] Overhead dungeon-crawler game (dummy package) [05:59] ?what are we joking about? [05:59] do apt-cache show nethack [05:59] sivang, yeah, but it is only in universe (iirc) [05:59] eh, then we should have it in main!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 [05:59] MOUHHAHAHA [05:59] :) [05:59] anyway, I'm out and in in a second. [05:59] see ya all [05:59] yo people have a low concerntration span today [06:00] bye [06:00] froud: a sec :) === sivang [~sivang@box79162.elkhouse.de] has joined #ubuntu-doc [07:10] froud: back [07:13] sivang, gee that was a long sec [07:13] froud: yeah i know :( sorry , I had a rather instable electric setup here.. [07:14] froud: that is I have.. [07:15] plus I have some irc client slowdownd and I tried to check some other servers but this apparently seems the best at the moment. [07:15] b back in 5 gotta take my daughters to bed [07:17] froud: no prob, sorry about the delay [07:17] froud: take your time [07:18] wheew OK [07:18] where were we [07:18] ? [07:23] yes [07:23] here, just reading over the wiki wishlist [07:23] which is _long_ [07:23] :) [07:23] I states some stepa that we can take to make things better, [07:23] I agreed with you that there is a current problem with the way we do stuff, and don;t :) [07:24] and that everything should be first discussed over the mailing list - so we could get the oppinion of other doc team memebrs which are not always on irc, [07:25] and see how we vcan get working in the next weel - we might want to bring the technical issue if the reporistiry to the technical board agenda, [07:25] see how fast we can get a server in canonica's space. [07:25] sure, I think it always wise to ask. The community is strong, very strong [07:25] yes ofcourse. It's just that there has already been talks about canonical providing the space for the server, [07:25] so we just need to go and ask [07:26] btw why is stuff not there from the onset? [07:26] seems logical [07:26] I also said that we should maybe investigate how we _can_ use baz to do doc wrok, [07:26] revision management [07:26] that way probably easing off the adoption of the doc repo by canonical. [07:27] why it's not there? [07:27] Good qustion. [07:27] Maybe it is because still, the project is yet very young, and else I don't know. [07:27] I am concerned about arch [07:27] in what way? [07:27] seems people (writers) don't know it [07:28] do you? [07:28] it looks much the same as most rms [07:28] a few things different [07:28] but that is ok with me [07:29] I would think that SVN is a better choice [07:29] from what I can see so far [07:29] also we have already the training thanks to red-bean [07:30] no need to labor [07:31] unless canonical want the ubuntu doc team to document bazaar [07:31] in which case it will make a great test case [07:32] I think they do, and I think that corey burger is on to it, thought I havn't been able to talk to him over the last couple of days though. [07:32] Ok I have a person who I can approach in canonical. should I approach with our suggestions? [07:32] yes, who is he btw? Black? [07:33] no a person at cononical not TSF [07:33] btw do we have a doc team lead? [07:33] would you mind telling me who is he? [07:33] she [07:33] lousie? jabe? [07:33] jane? === froud scracthes through email [07:34] ah ok, if It's louise I think she already left canonical, but we might want to talk to elmo about this. [07:34] (James Troup) I think he's incharge of all the server farm and other stuff [07:35] yes Jane Silber [07:35] regarding the lead thing, it was long ago agreed that we would do better without a lead, [07:35] always good to have a lead :-) [07:35] as this is a community project and the actual administrative part of the project already gets handled by the secretary which is enrico zini [07:36] so we have a person to complain to, and who takes care of us wrt to wiki gardnering and etc. [07:36] ok so enrico, if you're listening, we need action [07:36] let's see if he online [07:37] no he not :( [07:37] well, we should start posting stuff to the mailing list, what do you think? [07:37] have you already maybe? [07:37] I did [07:37] ah ok, lemme see. [07:38] is there a proposal in the archive on how to move wiki to docbook? [07:39] I dont see one [07:40] try and look for the doc team bof on the conf wiki [07:40] huh? [07:41] we have discussed it over in Mataro, lemme check [07:41] what is Mataro [07:42] where we had the ubuntu conference. [07:42] 2 weeks ago approx. [07:42] in spain [07:42] ah b 4 my time :-) [07:43] https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/Conference [07:43] https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamBOF [07:44] froud: what do you mena b 4 your time? [07:44] 4 weeks ago [07:45] I just got here three days ago [07:45] :-) [07:46] OK I will put forward a request to Jane and outline our thinking. I see that John Hornbeck is +1 for the SVN proposal and if you reply that will be two people [07:48]