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usualis gparted not in hoary because it isn't in debian unstable?12:41
lamontusual: that would be one reason12:44
lamontgenerally speaking,  things come from debian unstable12:44
lamontunless they're feature goals (like gnome)12:45
usualI see12:45
usuallamont, ubuntu hoary should release with the icon in the menu in this ss12:48
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sivangKamion: ping01:46
RiddellCan anyone say what went wrong with this build?  it's got a build dep of automake1.7 but it's trying to find automake1.  http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/k/kdesdk/4:3.3.2-1ubuntu1/kdesdk_4:3.3.2-1ubuntu1_20041226-0237-i386-failed02:08
=== lamont looks
lamontRiddell: heh.  whoever uploaded it needs to fix the Build-Depends line02:10
lamont(there is no 'automake1.' package...)02:11
Riddelllamont: I protest, the Build-Deps line definatly says Build-Depends: automake1.702:14
lamont** Using build dependencies supplied by package:02:15
lamontBuild-Depends: automake1. , binutils-dev, bison, debhelper (>> 4.0.0), flex, kdelibs4-dev (>= 4:3.3.2), kdepim-dev (>= 4:3.3.2), libdb4.2-dev, libkcal2-dev (>= 4:3.3.2)02:15
Kamionlamont: pong02:15
Kamionsivang: pong02:15
lamontKamion: installing an hppa box with debian, was trying to bludgeon my way past the missing pieces of my local mirror...02:15
lamontbut finally just pointed it off-site to get the d-i its.02:15
Kamionfair enough02:16
Kamionsivang: compare /etc/environment with /etc/locale.gen02:16
Riddelllamont: who can I ask about getting access to be able to upload packages?02:16
lamontKamion: but it's so slow it hurts. :-(02:16
lamontRiddell: tell me which package it should build-dep on, and I'll upload it02:17
KamionRiddell: get Chris Halls to recommend you02:17
lamontRiddell: and what Kamion said.02:17
Kamion$ zgrep Build-Depends kdesdk_3.3.2-1ubuntu1.diff.gz02:18
Kamion-Build-Depends: automake1.7, binutils-dev, bison, debhelper (>> 4.0.0), flex, kdelibs4-dev (>= 4:3.3.0), libdb4.2-dev, libkcal2-dev (>= 4:3.3.0)02:18
Kamion+Build-Depends: automake1. , binutils-dev, bison, debhelper (>> 4.0.0), flex, kdelibs4-dev (>= 4:3.3.2), kdepim-dev (>= 4:3.3.2), libdb4.2-dev, libkcal2-dev (>= 4:3.3.2)02:18
lamontRiddell: how many other pieces are having issues...02:18
sivangKamion: when do you think a ubuntu installer POT files would be available in rosetta?02:19
=== lamont grumbles at 5MB source balls
RiddellKamion: very strange, that's not what I have in my kdesdk_3.3.2-1ubuntu1.diff.gz I gave to amu 02:23
lamontRiddell: 1.7, yes?>02:23
RiddellKamion: who do I get Chris Halls to recommend me to?02:23
lamontRiddell: but definitely in the archive as automake1.02:23
bob2is there a good reason for it to be bulid-dep'ing on automake at all?02:23
lamontRiddell: eventually to the technical board02:23
Kamionsivang: good question, it's somewhat on my to-do list. In the meantime there's http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/installer-po/, which has most of the first-stage interesting bits02:23
Riddelllamont: actually 1.9 may be better02:23
lamontbob2: many things are debatable.02:23
Kamionsivang: (that URL's regenerating at the moment)02:23
lamontRiddell: pick one.  I won't be able to build before I toss it at the archive...02:24
KamionRiddell: as lamont says, community council and tech board; note that our sysadmins are 1.5-out-of-2 on holiday at the moment02:24
sivangKamion: can country teams use this url to upload into rosetta?02:25
Kamionsivang: please don't do so until I give the OK02:25
KamionI don't want random translations floating about without anything coherent being done about them02:25
sivangKamion: Ok, no prob, so in the meanwhile I don't see much point in taking them at all :) I will just wait for it to be put there by you. 02:25
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Kamionat the moment the only semi-official reason that URL exists is because a third-party translation company is getting up to speed02:26
KamionI'll probably get it polished up after New Year02:26
KamionRosetta's definitely a goal for it once I'm sure it's all accurate source02:27
lamontKamion: just on the off chance you didn't know (duh) d-i at 9600-serial _SUCKS_02:27
sivangKamion: what languages are they  going to be doing? I've talked with the pro-translation cordinator on Mataro..:)02:27
Kamionsivang: dunno actually, I guess I'll find out02:28
KamionXhosa was mentioned but I think she wasn't entirely sure herself yet02:28
lamontRiddell:  you want 1.9 or 1.7?02:28
sivangKamion: Xhosa = Adi ?02:28
Riddelllamont: automake1.9 please02:30
Riddelllamont: what's wrong with 5meg sources?02:31
lamontthey're large02:31
sivanganyway, I'm out. Night all.02:31
lamontnight sivang 02:31
sivangNight lamnot02:31
ogranight sivang02:31
sivangnight ogra 02:31
Kamionsivang: right02:32
sivangKamion: k:) night02:33
lamontRiddell: uploaded02:34
lamontsadly, it'll be 30 minutes before the buildds take it02:34
Riddelllamont: thanks02:35
lamontKamion: and for the record, tftp booting the business card ISO doesn't work. :-)02:35
lamontKamion: well, it works.  But it doesn't do what I wanted. :(02:36
Kamioncan't you tftp-boot the vmlinu[xz] /initrd.gz?02:37
lamontKamion: yeah - actually went with 'boot.img' :)02:37
lamontsadly, that lacks all the pretty installer pieces, as does the local mirror. :(02:38
lamontwhat I really could have used was a way to tell d-i that /cdrom was populated, and to just get on with life.02:38
lamont(netcat and tar are your friend, you see...)02:38
Kamionthat's more the job of hd-media image types02:39
Kamionand iso-scan02:39
lamontI find that the hppa port is making a wonderful harness for testing my per-suite changes in the buildd's...02:40
lamontKamion: well, yes... it was just an idea I had before I punted.02:40
lamontKamion: ok.  now how do I change the mirror location before istalling the base system?02:43
Kamionyou didn't get choose-mirror presented to you by default?02:43
lamontyeah.  I need to change the answer02:44
lamontor the install will take until next weke02:44
Kamiongo back to the main menu and select that item02:44
lamontweek, even02:44
lamontand it automagically jumps back into installing the base system.  I guess that's cool02:46
Kamiondependency-driven menu :)02:46
lamontof course, the downside was that the only way I had to get back to the main menu was to yank the rug out from under the download....02:54
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lamontKamion: tomorrow I'll get the connectors I need, and get my cyclades box installe.d03:09
Kamiondebian-kernel seems to be moving towards the one-source-for-all-architectures model fairly rapidly now03:36
Kamion(of course, they always wanted to)03:36
calccool so they are helping upstream get the archs more in sync?04:09
KamionI think they always have been, just coordinating better now04:18
Kamionbut also just putting all the patches in one source package; it's not as if it's hard to #ifdef them for one architecture if necessary04:19
calcputting it all in one source will lead them to wanting to push as much as possible upstream though ;)04:27
calcwhich is a good thing04:27
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bob2The Ubuntu Backports project's goal is to provide a stable AND up-to-date Ubuntu Linux system by backporting desktop applications from Ubuntu's Development branches and Debian Sid."07:56
calcbackports are evil07:58
bob2and they want donations to support their "apt-get source -b firefox" work07:58
enricoHello.  Is someone messing with the wiki?  I'm now allowed to log in anymore :(10:09
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fabbionehey ogra11:03
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stuNNedmozilla-thunderbird has been out for a few weeks now, any idea when it will make it into ubuntu unstable?12:30
stuNNedn/m sorry about that, it's not in sid yet12:33
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ograhey fabbione01:12
ograwow thats latency now01:12
ograhad a nice christmas ?01:13
sivangogra: low latency patches to the stock kenrel? where?:)01:13
fabbionei hate xmas01:13
=== sivang would love to switch to doing midi/multi track recording in linux.
ograme too, so i stayed at home and set up the imac i broght from the company to check my ubuntu builds of the screensaver.....GF is at her mother 400km away....01:14
ograsivang: i heard thats possible with the right HW01:15
ograsivang: but dont rely on me , i'm just waking up01:15
ograsivang: ...and i'm very slow in this :)01:15
sivangogra: ok heh :)01:17
sivangfabbione: why you hate christmas? 01:17
fabbionesivang: several reasons.. too long to explain here01:18
sivangfabbione: k :)01:18
ografabbione: just see it as some free days :)01:18
fabbioneogra: i can't really... my gf loves xmas and she pushed me around all the 3/4 days in real pain01:19
fabbioneogra: that might give you an idea ;)01:19
=== ogra reads
fabbioneit's interesting to see how many people read URL's that are not for them :-)01:21
ografabbione: looks like i got the opposite here.....my GF is gone and i can finally do my ubuntu stuff that i cant else bacause of work01:21
=== sivang LOLs to fabbione pleasure of people breaking up their X :)
ogratahts sad....01:22
sivangwell, whoever uses a development branch should know what his doing.01:22
fabbionegotta do dishes and a bit of shopping01:23
sivangfabbione: c'ya01:23
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=== JD looks for a pmount/gvm/utopia guru
=== sjoerd hides
=== JD chases after sjoerd
JDsjoerd: I now have a working mounting usb storage device02:14
RiddellJD: use media:/ ioslave with hal backend02:14
JDone small issue is that I have a loopback device on it02:14
JDRiddell: pfft. not using KDE02:15
=== Treenaks is looking for the person who did NOT insert the Dutch translation for anything into rosetta.. even when they're available already (nl.po)
sjoerdJD: what kind of loopback device ?02:15
JDsjoerd: so I put a small script on the device to mount it02:15
JDsjoerd: just a ext2 filesystem "mount -oloop /media/usbkey/secrets.loop /media/usbkeys/secrets"02:16
JDsjoerd: gvm says "do you want to run .autorun" and I say yes02:17
sivangfor writing complaints blogs like thius :   <revnumber>&userguide-rev;</revnumber>02:17
sivang                                          ^02:17
sivang/home/pooh/devel/docteam/faq/faq/trunk/usersguide.xml:20: parser error : Entity 'userguide-rev' not defined02:17
sivang                <revnumber>&userguide-rev;</revnumber>02:17
JDonly problem is that the device is mounted noexec :S02:17
TreenaksJD: why is that a problem?02:18
JDTreenaks: because gvm can't exec the autorun script it just asked me if I wanted to run02:18
sjoerdTreenaks: because he wants to run something on it and gvm can't execute it :)02:18
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sjoerdJD: file a bug against gvm.. and we'll probably remove the autorun ability :)02:19
=== sjoerd doesn't think that the autorun stuff was a good idea anyway
fabbionehey jbailey 02:19
JDsjoerd: hmmm having something in ~/.gvm would be better02:20
jbaileyHeya fabbione!  Happy whatever-winter-holiday-you-happen-to-celebrate! =)02:20
sjoerdJD: any reason why your using a loop device btw ?02:20
fabbionethanks! same there02:20
JDsjoerd: because windows likes to format non-fat devices?02:20
JDsjoerd: and at somepoint I might use an encrypted loopback02:20
sjoerdwe should start supporting encrypted filesystems on removable storage nicely rsn now02:21
JDsjoerd: so the device is fat, but it has a ext2 filesystem on it for my gpg keys and stuff02:22
JDsjoerd: that would be so lovely02:22
sjoerdso you'll get a better solution for that02:22
JDI want to plug my key in it get mounted and possibly for gnome-keyring to decrypt it for me02:23
JDall wthout me doing anything (except giving a passphrase)02:23
TreenaksJD: that'd be great :)02:25
=== Treenaks wants that too 8)
JDsjoerd: it can still make sarge :P02:26
TreenaksUbuntu SargE?02:26
sjoerdJD: It is gonna depend on hal 0.6.x so probably not02:26
JDsjoerd: oh well02:26
JDhow come?02:26
sjoerdJD: see http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/EncryptedStorage02:26
sjoerdsome notes about what we want to support02:26
sjoerdJD: and http://lists.freedesktop.org/pipermail/hal/2004-December/001423.html02:27
Kamionhmph, Mac Open Firmware has an interesting notion of "disassembly"02:28
Kamionh# ff852e77 dis02:28
Kamionff852e77: 00967eff02:28
Kamionff852e7b: fc7e680202:28
KamionTHANKS, APPLE02:29
TreenaksKamion: get the PowerPC manual to decode the opcodes 8)02:29
fabbionehey Kamion !02:29
KamionTreenaks: that's the plan ...02:30
sjoerdfabbione: do you know if a ultra5 has temperature sensors ? (probably not, but you can never be too sure)02:30
Kamionunfortunately the manual I had is on the powerbook's disk, which is currently running OF :)02:30
TreenaksKamion: 8)02:30
fabbionesjoerd: not that i know.. sorry02:31
sjoerdfabbione: k, thanks02:31
fabbionehuston this is apollo1302:39
fabbionewe have a problem02:39
fabbionehttp://www.smcc.demon.nl/webcam/ <-02:39
=== ogra is writing a lengthy ranting mail to the ubuntuguide author......(upcoming next in the -users ML for everyone who likes to get scared)
fabbioneKamion: are you replacing mdz during these days?02:39
Treenaksfabbione: we're shipping another version of that driver already02:40
fabbioneTreenaks: dude... they are the same02:40
fabbionei did the merfe02:40
fabbionethe version we have, has been taken a few days before this mess02:40
fabbioneand since upstream is dead02:40
ografabbione: thats more than 2 months old.... i thought there was a new maintainer02:40
Treenaksfabbione: http://www.saillard.org/linux/pwc/02:40
fabbioneogra: we have 10.0.6-unofficial...02:40
fabbionethanks guys02:41
Treenaksfabbione: no, the saillard version is the demon version + patches02:41
fabbioneTreenaks: i think the url was wrong in the patch...02:41
fabbionenow i reco the website02:41
ograufff.... mail sent....02:47
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=== fabbione needs some sugar
Treenaksogra: the long one? about the brokenness of the Guide? :)02:53
fabbioneogra: do you know anything about misdn?02:54
ograwas necessary... i and bob2 had soo much support the last days, caused by broken systems of ppl following the guide02:54
ografabbione: i'm just starting with it....important is that all the old isdn modules are blacklisted, they interfere02:55
fabbionehmm i only need to update the kernel module...02:55
fabbionei was trying to figure out how old is the one in our kernel and the one in their CVS repo02:55
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ograah, ok.... i didnt look at it for some time....02:56
fabbioneanother one to update :-)02:57
ografabbione: mvo is currently in there....02:57
Treenaksfabbione: another nice set of drivers (not) is the quickcam set... it's 1 driver.. and 3 patched versions of the same driver with the same module name.. each of which works for a different set of cams02:57
Treenaksfabbione: and the main driver author is on crack02:57
fabbioneaahah no no.. it's the same02:59
fabbioneTreenaks: hold on... talking about pwc?02:59
fabbionei am way down a LOOOONG list of drivers to review...02:59
Treenaksfabbione: no, quickcam (logitech)02:59
Treenaksfabbione: not in ubuntu kernels yet02:59
Treenaksfabbione: and in the current state, it probably won't be for a loooong time03:00
Treenakshttp://qce-ga.sourceforge.net/ and http://home.mag.cx/messenger/ etc.03:00
fabbioneTreenaks: please don't give me drivers that requires a patching level of 20 deps.03:00
Treenaksfabbione: OK :)03:00
=== Treenaks will kick the upstram
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fabbionelike foo predeps on bar that predeps on baz but it has 3 f00 variant that are ....03:01
fabbioneTreenaks: that will simply increase my insanity level03:01
fabbioneand we do NOT want that.. do we?03:01
Treenaksfabbione: oh no, it's just 4 patches (1 for each type of cam).. but the problem they're mutually exclusive03:01
Treenaksfabbione: so I'll kick upstream into merging03:01
fabbioneso it's no go03:01
Treenaksfabbione: .. for now 03:01
Kamionfabbione: mdz> not that I've been told; mdz's been sort of around ...03:03
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Kamioncool. if you telnet to openfirmware and then do 'boot hd:9,\\yaboot' or whatever, you get the yaboot prompt over telnet03:05
Kamionpresumably this is how you actually debug yaboot03:09
ograKamion: is debootstrap error 132 == no target disk found ? 03:16
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fabbionecan anybody connect to http://prism54.org/firmware/ ?03:37
jbaileyfabbione: It's not coming up, but I have one of those cards.03:39
jbaileyfabbione: Want me to fire up the laptop and get you the firmware? =)03:39
[Clint] I have handy03:39
fabbionejbailey: i need to see if there is a firmware update :-)03:39
[Clint] jbailey: plus it's illegal for you to give it to him03:39
fabbionethat's what i have03:40
fabbioneis there anything newer than that?03:40
fabbioneso that's good.. less work for me :-)03:41
Riddelllamont: your upload of kdesdk does not seem to have been built03:52
fabbioneRiddell: http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/buildLogs/k/kdesdk/4:3.3.2-1ubuntu1/kdesdk_4:3.3.2-1ubuntu1_20041226-0237-i386-failed03:56
fabbionei think it's a plain typo03:56
Riddellfabbione: that's the old build which lamont fixed03:57
fabbionei doubt....03:58
fabbionethere are no new versions at all03:58
fabbioneit has been accepted a ubuntu203:58
Riddellhe said he'd uploaded it03:58
fabbione   * Fix typo in Build-Depends.03:58
fabbioneprobably he forgot to kick it back...03:59
Riddellwhat does that mean?03:59
fabbioneRiddell: he needs to tell the systems to build the package04:01
fabbione(in few very simple words)04:01
Riddelldoesn't they do that automatically when a package is uploaded?04:02
fabbionein some cases no04:05
fabbioneand this is one of them04:05
lamontfabbione: it should have... checking04:06
lamontfor a in ia64 i386 powerpc amd64; do wanna-build -b$a/build-db -dhoary --pretend-avail automake1._1;done04:07
lamontall better04:07
lamontfabbione: 260 Installed, 205 Needs-Build04:08
lamonthppa, partial debian mirror locally, so lots of d-w's04:08
lamontonce it gets done with sweep one, then I'll add the stage1 archive in and see what happens from there.04:09
fabbionelamont: hey...04:10
lamontRiddell: because it was dep-wait 'automake1.', and that package hasn't arrived in the archive (duh), it won't auto-try a new kdesdk upload.  sorry about that.04:10
lamontand fixed.04:10
lamontfabbione: yo04:10
fabbionelamont: when can i get an hppa chroot?04:10
=== lamont is about to get dragged out the door for a fun filled day
fabbioneit doesn't need to be hoary04:10
fabbionedebian is fine04:10
fabbionei only need our kernel-wedge04:10
Riddelllamont: fair enough04:10
lamontfabbione: let me get the cyclades set up first, eh?04:10
fabbionelamont: sure04:10
fabbionesince i am going to release 2.6.10 tomorrow.. i could start giving it a spin on hppa04:11
amulamont: hold on, the md5 didnt matched, with ubuntu2, i builded ubuntu1 on another maschine04:11
lamontamu: ??04:11
lamontmd5sum matched at upload for kdesdk ubuntu204:12
lamontI just unblocked the buildd's04:12
amui got a rejected mail from katie 04:13
amudpkg-source -x failed for kdesdk_3.3.2-1ubuntu2.dsc ( return code 6400 ) 04:14
lamontamu: it's building on all of them....04:16
lamontdid you upload a -1ubuntu2?04:16
amulamont: thx04:16
amulamont: yep04:16
lamontthat would explain it... my -1ubuntu2 was in the archive, so your's bounced.04:17
lamontdelta was to build-dep automake1.9, instead of automake1., per Riddell 04:17
lamontbut wanna-build still had the automake1. dep-wait, and needed a boot to the head.04:18
lamonter, needed to be awoken.04:18
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amulamont: yep, saw it in the buildlogs, Riddell told me this also ... so i uploaded 1ubuntu2 :) 04:18
lamontanyway, off for another fun day of vacationing.04:19
amu.. have fun 04:19
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Kamionogra: 132 is signal 4, whatever that is on your system ('kill -l')04:29
=== Kamion finally manages to disassemble the bit of OF that governs what kinds of Mac partitions are bootable
ograKamion: already done, was a prob in -users with virtual pc04:31
Kamionso, it *has* to be on an Apple_Boot* or Apple_HFS* partition04:31
Kamionogra: ok04:31
[Clint] I hope you're going after dbs too.04:32
Kamion*snork* *quote*04:33
=== Riddell protests, my package definatly did not have that automake1. typo in it
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KamionRiddell: must have been introduced by accident by the uploader04:34
fabbioneKamion: you also copied the typo ;)04:38
fabbioneCAST -> CASTS :P04:38
KamionI figured that was just Itaglish04:43
Kamionfeel free to fix :)04:44
Kamionwoohoo, working powerpc USB boot. we'll have that in Ubuntu by hoary release04:48
=== ogra applauds
Kamionit'd be nice to get ofpath to recognise USB sticks, but that may be harder04:49
JDKamion: does OF deal with usb serial devices?04:54
Kamionyou mean like a USB serial console?04:55
Kamionyou could almost certainly write a driver for it, but I suspect it isn't there by default04:58
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=== smurfix does that quite often, too :-/
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Treenaksogra: do you have some weird email<->brain interface?07:18
ograhehe, why ?07:18
Treenaksogra: you reply do -user mail before the original mail reaches my inbox :)07:18
Treenaksgive us a chance! :)07:19
ograjust a fast server *g* (still a woody box)07:19
TreenaksI'm on a sarge box which takes ages to deliver mail (spamcheck, viruscheck, [you-name-it] -checl)07:19
ograok, i try to hold it back some mins in the future :)07:19
ograthe trick is to run all checks at the client side :)07:20
Treenaksogra: ah! :P07:21
Treenaksbut my server is my client ;07:21
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mjg59Hrm. There's a couple of chunks in the latest acpi patch that we probably want in 2.6.1008:00
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Treenaksalso, inotify seems to be absent in 2.6.10-vanilla08:06
sivangI already said that over the rosetta channel, and as it seems important I would ask here again -08:10
sivangMaybe it's worth while to announce a message to hold uploading of stuff into rosetta by translator until the official braches are merged in?08:11
sivangI have already some peopel over my country team that want to start trasnlating, some of them I think even attempted uploading some templates..08:11
sivangthis could result in the random arbitrary translations floating problem..08:12
Treenakssivang: uh.. most stuff in Rosetta has been RE-translated into Dutch because the Rosetta people didn't upload the already-translated .po's08:13
sivangTreenaks: this will happen also for hebrew I think, I don't know how long I can stop people from uploading :) although I asked really nicely.08:14
Keybukmjg59: oh?08:33
mjg59Keybuk: Nothing likely to help you, I'm afraid08:36
mjg59Tell tbm to get his docking station fixed and I'll see what I can do08:36
Keybukis the parallel port you need, right?08:39
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sivangmjg59: the acpi-support pkg in hoary is outdated in a way? suspend to ram seem to not work on the inspiron 8200..09:08
mjg59sivang: In what way?09:12
sivangmjg59: well, the fans keep on going, network is up, disk access continues..09:14
mjg59How are you trying to suspend it?09:17
mjg59sivang: Try running /etc/acpi/sleep.sh and then send me the dmesg09:21
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HcEshould I have a daemon to be able to go to sleep with acpi?09:23
HcEsleepd or something?09:24
sivangmjg59: will do :)09:26
sivangmjg59: I don't even have this script..09:36
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makosmurfix: hey10:15
makosmurfix: you around? i want to know what the ideal email address for country team stuff should be? 10:15
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smurfixmako: around10:28
smurfixmako: country-team@canonical?10:29
makosmurfix: that would be ideal :)10:29
makosmurfix: i just mentioned the email yu'd be using to email me about this so far in the CC summaries10:30
makothat i just sent to news10:30
mako-news even10:30
makosmurfix: we can look into getting a role account set up but that will (cleary) have to wait for elmo to return10:30
smurfixmako: Otherwise, to get me personally, using smurf@debian would make sense.10:33
makoi think using @debian addresses for ubuntu thing may be not that great an idea10:35
smurfixmako: Hmmm10:35
smurfixmako: OK, then hire me and give me a @canonical address.    1/2 :-)10:36
ograhey, me too !!10:36
smurfixmako: The one you used is the next best choice though, so OK.10:36
makothere are people in debian who are a little annoyed at unbuntu/canonical.. we don't need to invite "You are abusing debian resources" on top of everything :)10:36
smurfixmako: true ...10:37
makosmurfix: i looked and saw what you emailed me about country teams from most recently10:37
makomy lbdb picks up emails from you at like 10 different addresses :)10:37
smurfixmako: Ten's a lot. Probably includes all the @noris.* addresses I still carry around in my gpg keyring.10:38
calcgive away @canonical so people can use them for their debian packages ;)10:40
calcappear to slowly take over debian, muhaha ;)10:40
makocalc: people will see it whether we "appear" to be doing it or not :)10:41
kylemanybody who pays attention already knows who works for canonical.10:41
Keybukeveryone thinks we're taking over debian *anyway*10:42
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smurfixKeybuk: ... for some more-or-less fuzzy meaning of "we" and "take over", that's actually true ...10:43
calcthere's nothing to take over, everyone has already converted to using ubuntu ;)10:43
ogranot the mpis ppl though10:44
ograor sparc10:44
smurfixnot to forget http://wiki.debian.net/index.cgi?LetUbuntuReleaseForUs10:44
kylemi actually don't mind that plan, but my favorite con is "What about the rest of the toys in Toy Story? They want to be released as well!" :)10:45
ograwoo, the cons list is a lot longer10:45
smurfixogra: doesn't mean it carries more weight though10:45
ograi know , quality matters, not quantitiy10:46
calc"What about the rest of the toys in Toy Story? They want to be released as well!" best argument to keep releasing ;)10:46
calckylem: ah didn't see your comment :P10:46
smurfixOne might argue that LetUbuntuReleaseForUs already *is* the current release strategy, as opposed to ReleaseWhenReady :-/10:47
mdzfabbione: I'm going to be around most of the time10:47
Keybuktrying to get Debian Developers to release sarge is like trying to get them all to go to dinner10:48
seb128mdz: when a guy ask if -devel is the right place to mail when a package does build, include something saying that's not when you reply :p10:48
mdzKamion: yes, absolutely we should put ubuntu-keyring in main10:48
mdzKamion: in fact it probably ought to go in base10:48
mdzseb128: but it is, until (and unless) we have a separate mailing list for MOTU10:49
mdzit's certainly better than filing bugs10:50
seb128the list is about the development, isn't it ?10:50
seb128bugzilla is the right place10:50
mdzseb128: these are universe packages11:05
mdzif they're filed in bugzilla, they are ignored11:05
mxpxpodfabbione: ping11:05
mdzon -devel, there is the hope that someone will see it and care to fix it11:06
mdzthe reason I didn't say anything on the matter is that I don't have a good answer yet as to the correct place to send those reports11:06
mdzthe MOTU stuff needs some organization11:07
sivangmdz: if ubuntu universe comes from sid, maybe just use this as a call to give even more support to sid's pkgs through ubuntu?11:08
mdzsivang: what do you mean?11:08
sivangmdz: thuse utilizing sid's already existant infrastructre11:09
sivangmdz: that it, debian BTS etc..11:09
mdzthat would require that people wanting to do maintenance in universe become Debian developers, and we absolutely will not do that11:09
mdzwe will empower users to do work in universe directly through Ubuntu11:10
sivangmdz: but if you let people upload and contrib, and ubuntu staffer sync it to sid, then they don't need to become dds11:10
sivangmdz: they will be like "sponsered" from debian's point of view.11:10
mdzI guess I don't understand what you're proposing, then11:10
sivangmdz: probably :) I will try to rephrase and say again...11:11
mdzthe problem is that Ubuntu users don't have a clear place to go for problems in universe11:11
mdzthe solution proposed by the community council is the formation of an Ubuntu team to do that maintenance11:11
mdzDebian cannot be a solution to this problem, because it has its own social and organizational requirements which are separate from Ubuntu's11:12
mdzthat team will, of course, be encouraged to feed their changes upstream to Debian in the usual ways11:12
mdzbut they will not upload packages to Debian, unless they happen to be Debian developers and can do so according to Debian's methodology11:13
mdzthey will upload to Ubuntu11:13
sivangyes, and DD which are also ubuntu maintainers could "sponser" this uploads back to debian ? or is this colliding with debian strucutre again?11:14
mdzin Debian, it is only acceptable to upload packages that are maintained by someone else, under specific circumstances11:15
sivangI see.11:15
mdzso it would be in extremely bad taste to push those packages to Debian as a matter of course11:15
sivangthen an infrastructre must be set up...11:15
sivangfor the MOTU people.11:15
seb128mdz: if people start using -devel as a bug tracker for universe the list will be flooded with that and most of the devels will not keep reading it because of the bad SNR11:17
mdzsivang: yes, that is the plan11:17
sivangthis could maybe take the from of debian forge....then ubuntu would build those pacakges, and a proper note would be made to tell peopel who enaable universe that their system may break...but a bug system must be set up.11:17
mdzseb128: if that happens, we will absolutely create a new list11:17
sivang(by saying debian forge I meant alioth)11:17
seb128mdz: ok ...11:18
mdzI am concerned about prematurely splitting lists; it divides the community's attention11:18
lamontcreating new lists should only be done to address traffic overload, not because of perceived possible traffic issues.11:18
seb128I already find we have too many bug with user questions or bug reports on -devel11:18
seb128but perhaps that's only me ...11:19
makowow.. #ubuntu-devel lives!11:19
lamontmako: yeah, but we're all on vacation, I think.11:19
sivangmaybe a seperate bug reporting system should be set up for universe...11:19
makolamont: i'm not :)11:20
lamontmako: ah, ok.  I am.11:20
ograsivang: launchpad 11:20
makolamont: i'm FREEZING in an nyc apartment with broken heat wish i was back in spain11:20
sivangogra: yes :)11:20
sivangmako: me too :)11:20
=== mako makes like an eskimo and *chills*
mdzseb128: there are some, but compared to, say, debian-devel the SNR is great11:20
=== ogra hands a blanket to mako
seb128mdz: that's a start. If we don't stop it now .... 11:21
mdzseb128: ideally, we will eventually have a proper support tracker and bug tracker for everything, and that should help a lot11:21
seb128people will start thinking that's the right list for this sort of stuff and then we are stucked11:21
makoogra: dude, i'm been learning to type from under a down blanket  all day :)11:21
mdzuntil that time, it doesn't seem right to tell people to just go away11:21
mdzthey need someplace to go11:21
lamontmako: hit -6F last week here.11:21
seb128bugzilla for bugs, -user for user questions11:21
sivangmdz: a temporary list until malone is up and running FOSS wide?11:22
mdzsupport stuff should definitely go to -user11:22
makoor any of the support channels11:22
ogramako: i know how that feels lived 2 years in an old factory without heating ;)11:22
smurfixlamont: ***brrr***11:22
mdzbut we cannot have every bug report about a universe package go into bugzilla; it is already very difficult to work with11:22
makopaid support, etc11:22
mdzthey need to be separate11:22
seb128mdz: and we can get every bug report about universe on -devel so ?11:22
mdzseb128: they require much less resources to process on -devel than in bugzilla11:23
seb128because few people use it atm11:23
mdzand more people see them, so they are more likely to get fixed11:23
seb128I would rather use -users11:24
makoseb128: only a few developers read -users11:24
mdzI'm happy to leave this up to whoever drives the MOTU11:24
mdzI think it will probably become a separate list11:24
seb128mako: I now, but if we keep it in this way, only a few developers will read -devel11:24
seb128s/now/know 11:25
sivangmdz: probably, it's not exactly suited for -users, and -devel we want to keep as low in traffic as possible.11:25
makowhy not a seperate bugzilla?11:25
=== sivang is really glad to read about 60-80 mails per day in -devel.
seb128you guys don't read the gnome list ? 11:25
makoseb128: i don't11:26
sivangseb128: I read gnome-love...11:26
seb128desktop-devel is a good example of list with very few RSN11:26
mdzmako: malone11:26
makomdz: well, if we had malone doing what we wanted this wouldn't be an issue at all, right?11:26
seb128I mean, they do this because devels are busy and tend to unsubscribe really quickly when a list start to deal with user threads and bug reports11:26
mdzmako: well, there is more to universe than bug reports11:26
sivangIIRC, malone is supposed to be the FOSS Universal bug tracker right?11:26
makomdz: heh, clearly :)11:27
mdzpersonally I think that bugzilla is not very workable for this11:27
mdzwhether a separate instance, a separate product, whatever11:27
lamonthrm.. mysql-dfsg unhappy x411:27
mdzit would be confusing11:27
mdzusers would need to know ahead of time where to go11:27
=== mako nods
makoi guess a seperate mailing list is the sanest course when things out of hand11:28
seb128just add a list universe so ...11:28
sivangmailing list for the meanwhile, malone in the future.11:28
mdzI don't want to create a mailing list when there is no one to subscribe to it11:28
lamontmy bad11:28
mdzI think this will all become a non-issue when MOTU happens, which should be RSN11:29
sivangRSN, is this something I missed from the last CC meeting? :)11:29
mdzI think getting that set up is community council territory11:29
=== mdz coughs in mako's direction
=== mako was happily off in another window swamped by something else
makoif somebody has an idea of what it should look like, we can get a proposal and we can push it forward11:33
makoi am currently writing up to *other* proposals for the next CC meeting so i would be thrilled if it could be someoen else :)11:34
makotwo other proposals :)11:34
makomdz: is there someone that wanted to drive it?11:34
makoi'm happy to work with them toward a proposal11:34
mdzmako: not sure; I missed the last meeting due to being deathly ill11:34
mdzI think the only must-have is someone to take point11:35
mdzMOTMOTU so to speak11:35
mdzsomeone to coordinate and drive the thing11:35
=== lamont wonders off to do more family stuff.
sivangyet another mako task? :)11:36
makosivang: i can't do it11:36
makodoing mako+lu's job is *killing me*11:36
sivangmako: notice the smile sign...:)11:36
makowell, i'm not doing lu's job nearly as well as she was i'm sure :)11:36
ograoh, so my wiki bugs go to mako :)11:37
makoogra: absoultely not11:37
makoogra:  :)11:37
makoogra: enrico is helping out with the wiki stuff.. 11:37
ograah, ok11:37
sivangogra: enrico has done a great deal of wiki fix works..report it to him11:37
ograi already have...11:38
ograwas just wondering, because bugzilla reports it to lu i seems11:38
sivangogra: you can file a bugzilla report on the documentation component, this is assined to enrico11:39
ograok, next time i do ....11:40
mdzsivang: the person leading the MOTU stuff should not be an existing Ubuntu developer, but someone from the community with the skills and interest to do it11:40
jdubpants off11:41
jdub33.6k mdem connection, 100 of 2775 emails downloaded ;)11:41
makojdub: *AWESOME*11:42
sivangmdz: true, so he'll have all the time for that. he should be probably also a very skilled in the way of packaging..11:42
makoif we talk a lot on IRC, we could have a noticeable slowdown affect on jdub's mail download11:42
jdubalso, i have ubuntu disease11:42
sivangmako: hehehehe11:42
jdubthanks to marianne and mdz11:42
jdubgar! :)11:42
sivangjdub: what are the symptoms? 11:42
mdzjdub: if you're only sick now, you didn't get it from me :-P11:43
makojdub: i thought you said marijuana and mdz at first11:43
ogradripping nose ?11:43
mdzmako: a formidable combination11:43
jdubnose, throat, walking dead, etc.11:43
makoif i had a nickle for ever time i've heard that one11:43
mdzSteveA was carrying the torch last11:43
jdubmdz: i'd like to shift UVF back to jan 5th11:43
makomdz: i think jordi had it11:43
mdzjdub: rather than doing it in the middle of everyone's vacation?  I agree11:44
jdubmdz: but am in mail hell atm, so haven't been able to send, etc.11:44
sivangjdub: what is the UVF?11:44
makosivang: upstream version freeze11:44
jdubupstream version vfreeze11:44
jdubmdz: particularly elmo's ;)11:44
makoor "unprecented viral fuckage" in jdub's case at the moment11:45
makoseriously, i think the cold in this apartment might KILL ME11:45
makoi'm going to make a pilgramage to the WARM CLOTHES STORE11:46
sivangmako: isn't there a place more hot that you can escape to? what about your neighbors? :)11:46
jdubmdz: could you mail on my behalf?11:46
sivangjdub: so the 5th it is?11:47
ogramako: a hairdryer under the blanket is great  .....11:47
makoogra: no hair dryer :(11:52
ogra500 candles ?11:52
makoogra: i have a lot of candles.. and an oven11:52
sivangmako: fire the oven up and close all the windows :)11:53
ograah, so make a fire then....11:53
makodude, i would *insane* if i had any windows open11:53
sivangmako: but be aware, it may consume all the oxygen inside.11:53
Mithrandirmako: take a few bottles, fill them up with hot (or boiling) water, put bottles in bed.  If you go to bed at the same time, put socks around them to avoid burning yourself.11:53
mdzjdub: ok11:53
sivangmako: I Know, GWeather applet says  -4C in central park11:54
mako10 points for a good idea on staying warm from the norweigan!11:54
sivangmako: I'll send you some fluffy furry warm bottles from here :)11:54
sivangmako: they have shapes like bears, bunnies etc..11:54
daniels_(and in the place where it's actually summer, it's 18degC, and bucketing down hail.  whoo hoo.)11:57
jdubnew vim packages... "Most important change is the usage of alternatives instead of diversions."11:59
sivangjdub: isn't GNOME 2.10 to be released on the 9th? and it is a hoary goal..11:59
sivangjdub: march , that is.12:00

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