sivanghey hornbeck , long time :)01:24
sivangfroud: ping01:25
sivanganybody awake?01:47
hornbeckI am around01:59
sivanghornbeck: how was vegas?01:59
hornbeckvegas was nice02:00
hornbeckglad to be home02:00
hornbeckhow are things for you?02:01
sivangfine I guess, working alot on the country team stuff, devel, and doc team :)02:08
hornbecksounds like alot02:11
hornbeckI wish I had time for Ubuntu stuff right now02:12
hornbeckI was busy with work, went on vacation(where I worked alot), now I am back and working alot again02:12
hornbeckwell I am going back to programming now02:14
hornbeckhave fun02:14
sivangwhat are you programming btw?02:14
hornbecksivang: you still around?04:15
=== enrico [~enrico@enrico.developer.debian] has joined #ubuntu-doc
ChrisHenrico: Up early today? ;)06:52
enricoChrisH: 14:18 here :)07:18
=== enrico warns
=== enrico super warns
enricoI'm going to do the merge of froud's patches into the svn repository07:29
enricoThen, I'm going to move everything in the repo inside trunk, and create branch and tags07:29
enricoI said I'd warn on IRC before doing it07:29
enricoI assume that most of the people are sleeping now anyway07:29
enricoChrisH: BTW, what are you doing awake?~07:29
=== enrico loads the smerge gun
=== enrico shoots
enricodidn't quite work07:50
enricoRedoing with plain svn07:52
ChrisHenrico: Marco was waking up at 4:50 a.m. :(08:02
ChrisHenrico: And I couldn't sleep anyway since my dad is in hospital since christmas. Everything is fucked up atm.08:02
ChrisHLooks like I have to learn subversion from scratch if I look at all that trunk, head, tag, branch, patch, main stuff.08:03
ChrisHWhat about tags/? Will those snapshots be taken automatically? Or am I supposed to do anything in there?08:04
ChrisHbranches/ are probably alternatives that could be "merged" somehow if we desire, right?08:05
=== froud is back (gone 11:43:55)
froudAfrican greetings08:21
=== [froud] [~sean@ndn-165-159-61.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc
=== froud [~sean@ndn-165-159-61.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-doc
froudAfrican greetings, I'm back had read errors08:35
froudAnyone awake08:35
ChrisHOnly physically...08:38
froudIn spriit is good08:39
froudChrisH, see my message to the list for help on SVN08:40
froudI want to start porting wki to docbook, any idea how to do this08:40
ChrisHfroud: Ah, thanks for the linx.08:41
=== enrico lands back here
froudno worries08:41
ChrisHfroud: I only used to run svn without tags and branches because they have scared me always since CVS. :)08:41
froud:-) much easier in svn08:42
enricoChrisH: oh, with svn is really easy08:42
ChrisHfroud: I once started a branch in a project (CVS) and no guru could get it merged.08:42
enricothey're just directories08:42
froudsee my links in the mail list08:42
froudall writers can get training08:42
ChrisHThe SVN documentation is really very good. I just didn't read everything but only the parts I needed so far. :)08:43
froudenrico, I have written to Jane at Canonical to get things moving re hosting08:43
ChrisHfroud: Had a chance to eval arch/baz?08:44
froudChrisH, try eSvn it makes life sooooo much easier08:44
froudnot that difficult08:44
ChrisHfroud: Better?08:44
froudyes and no08:44
froudthere are +'s and -'s08:44
enricofroud: oh, ok.  Don't stress them too much, though: I'm taking care of that, and maybe they would get bored of having too many requests08:44
froudI dont think it will be that hard to get people to port to it08:45
enricofroud: nothing could be done now as James, the admin of the farm, will be in vacation until the 2nd of January08:45
froudenrico, my experience is to push and things will happen08:45
enricoAfter the 2nd of January, I'll be back on track08:45
froudsure no worries08:45
froudwe have a working svn now08:45
enricofroud: your experience has never crossed "pushing James" :)08:46
froudthanks to you08:46
enricoEhi, no problem: John brought it back online, and I just did the reorganization you proposed08:46
froudJames is cool he gets stuff done if there is a real case for it08:46
froudDid you take a look at the changes I made08:46
ChrisHYeah... "pushing" and "James" are not really keywords that fit together. :)08:46
ChrisHfroud: There is a real case in setting up my DD account after a one-year-waiting-period for him...08:47
froud:-) what's the case for it. Is it holding you back on the documents08:47
enricoalthough for Canonical related things he is not really so bad08:47
froudI like james08:48
froudAny suggestions on how to proceed with porting wiki to docbook08:48
ChrisHfroud: Which parts do you suggest to move?08:49
froudWHat stuff do you suggest08:49
froudI have only made the userguide valid and well-formed08:49
froudthe userguide is now ready for working in08:50
ChrisHI'm just not sure how much really deserves to be moved to docbook.08:50
froudWhat do you mean?08:50
ChrisHIt probably does not make sense if we move every piece of information (many wiki pages just consist of a single sentence) into docbook.08:50
froudChrisH, the wiki should only contain stuff about the doc project, how to contribute, where to get source and proposals under consideration, and work to be done08:51
froudall other stuff        should be in docbook08:51
froudwiki is limiting08:52
froudhard to revision control08:52
enricouhm, wait a sec08:52
ChrisHWe already discussed that matter on the mailing list some time ago. Just too early to remember what the result was. :)08:52
enricoThe current consensus for the wiki is to make it the platform to which people can dump information with the smallest possible technical barrier08:53
froudI propose we work like the GNOME DP08:53
froudand how to reuce the load in porting to docbook08:53
froudwki then db increases overhead08:53
frouddo the people here know docbook?08:54
enricofroud: how does the Gnome DP work?08:54
froudEverything in svn in docbook08:54
enricofroud: all the people in the docteam know DocBook, however there's not only the docteam contributing to the Wiki08:54
ChrisHMost of the users that use the Wiki have probably not even heard of DocBook yet.08:54
enricoSo, we can affort to have a restricted group of people working on DocBook things, but we can't afford to cut the rest out08:55
ChrisHfroud: Just remember that most people expect well-formed documents but are not really willing to write some. So it's the job of the Doc Team to get together the bits and pieces and paste everything into meaningful documents.08:55
froudPerhaps we can port what there is, then leave a piece where people can dump into wiki and then we will port it asap08:55
ChrisHHowever the task is getting more confusing every day since new people have new ideas, other documents appear that already have done things that it feels like we are redoing everything...08:55
froudsure chaos08:56
froudthat's why you need everything in docbook08:56
ChrisHThe Wiki will always be a "draft dump". There is not enough manpower to move everything.08:56
froudI will decribe the process08:56
froudb 4 working on something a writer requests to the list08:57
enricofroud: I'm a bit scared08:57
ChrisHfroud: Just look at the recent posts. We have the Newbie guide, the huge user's guide that has been copied together... then our documents.08:57
=== ChrisH is severely scared
froudenrico, ChrisH, no need to be 08:57
froudwe just need a plan08:57
enricoWe've been having so many changes in process, that the last consensus was that no change in process should happen until the moment the first document gets finished08:57
froudOK so sections that are finished, we can port them and make them non edit in wiki08:58
enricoSo, it's probably better to postpone new plans to the next planning phase08:58
ChrisHfroud: Problem is: hardly anything has been accomplished so far. Having big plans is nice... but writers are starting to get desperate because plans tend to get killed every week.08:58
enricoCurrent plan is:08:58
enricodeadline: Hoary08:58
enricowhat's needed: quick guide, "About Ubuntu"08:59
froudenrico, remind me what is the deadline for Hoary08:59
enricofroud: april08:59
froudGeeze that is plenty of time08:59
enricofroud: a bit earlier to allow for translators08:59
ChrisHfroud: It would be really nice if we could get everybody to work on the DocBook documents. But currently there are mostly people that do the documents "for themselves". So we need a plan that we can handle inside the doc team for now. And we should really try to get everything to sit on the same table.08:59
froudNo translator will work in tandem08:59
enricofroud: yes, but we decided to take it easy since the group hasn't produced a single finished document yet :)09:00
enrico"About Ubuntu" is the page that describes Ubuntu when someone fires up Firefox or Yelp09:00
ChrisHWhich is not really surprising...09:00
enrico"QuickGuide" is a 2-page-per-app-with-screenshots intro to all the main applications in Hoary09:00
froudWe need focus, I am prepared to help09:00
ChrisHenrico: Screenshots? I thought we dumped that thought? :)09:00
enricoChrisH: oh, did we?  I lost that, then09:01
enricoChrisH: when has that been discussed?09:01
froudChrisH, they can be used, but In HTML they will not show unless needed09:01
ChrisHenrico: I remember we said it's too bad to have english screenshots in a latvian documentation. And the translators can not take new screenshots.09:01
enricoChrisH: how annoying :(09:01
froudThe standard is to reduce the number of screen shots to a minimal09:01
ChrisHenrico: I may be wrong though.09:02
ChrisHenrico: Translators have probably other things to do then redo screenshots.09:02
ChrisHenrico: And look at Hoary currently: since Mataro the menu layout has been changed three times!09:02
froudOK we are going in square circles09:02
froudChrisH, change is a good thing09:03
ChrisHfroud: I don't fear change.09:03
ChrisHfroud: I just hate doing things one way and then throwing it away.09:03
froudThe problem is themethods being used09:03
froudthe methods09:03
froudI propose using modular docbook and then creating a driver near the end09:04
froudthis way we can work and have some degree of abstraction from the changes09:04
froudThere are a number of methods we can adopt09:04
froud3 entities09:05
ChrisHWhat do you mean by "modular"? Are we writing every piece of information and then include from different xml files?09:05
froudthis is correct so no big change09:06
enricofroud: uhm...09:06
ChrisHBut the different documents have different focuses.09:06
froud5 profiling09:06
ChrisHAn explanation of the "user management" function in one document does not fit into another document at all.09:06
froudprofiling manages that)09:06
enricofroud: I really suggest you put up a proposal in a Wiki page so that everyone can see it, then we stick to the current consensus until the first document is finished09:07
enricofroud: else, there is no reasons in having consensuses, if they keep changing all the time09:07
froudenrico, it is a good idea, but can I do it on email09:07
enricofroud: this is the reason why people are so upset by changes recently, so I'd like to keep this one steady09:07
froudenrico, do you agree to adopt GDP process and procedure?09:08
froudas a base we can ehnace for our own purposes09:08
enricofroud: sure, go on with mail.  Just please make it clear that you propose that for *after* the first document is finished, to avoid people to run away screaming 09:08
ChrisHfroud: It's not that your ideas are bad somehow. You are just rushing a bit too much. There is no professional doc team with 10 years of repository experience. And writers are confused time and again. :)09:08
=== ChrisH runs away screaming
froudOh so ltes split the team09:09
ChrisHYeah, right. :)09:09
froudone group on wiki09:09
froudanother on docbook09:09
ChrisHLet's split four people into two times two. :)09:09
frouddoes that inlcude me09:09
froudI am 2 people :-)09:09
ChrisHWe are about 6-8 people IIRC.09:09
enricofroud: GDP is surely something we should keep looking at.  However, we're not a similar team, at least in size: we're few, so we may very well go with something more informal09:09
froudenrico, the process also works on smaller projects09:10
froudI think we lose the power of others in the community09:10
froudmany people know the docbook route09:10
froudit's tried and testes09:11
froudit works09:11
froudyet I understand what the problem is09:11
froudso I propose a middle route09:11
froudis it possible to id things done and finished in wiki09:11
froudif yes, I will port them09:11
froudthey will be made read only in wiki09:12
froudall new work will move be done in docbook09:12
froudthus we have a handover09:12
froudno stop in the work09:12
froudthose who know dcbook will use it09:12
froudthose that dont will use wiki09:12
froudat some point we will have everything in docbook09:13
froudby then people will have had enough time to get familiar with docbook09:13
enricofroud: no, really, listen to me a sec09:13
enricothe wiki has to remain09:13
=== ChrisH ties froud to a chair
enricothe wiki is to allow anyone from the ubuntu-user list to dump things for the others09:14
enricono replacing the wiki at all09:14
enricothe docteam is a different beast09:14
enricothe docteam handles svn and docbook09:14
ChrisHOur job is mainly to produce readable output for the end-users who are not willing to look up things in the Wiki. They need something they could even print out.09:14
froudenrico, the eventual aim is to replace the documents in wiki, I said we should keep wiki as a dump for people who are not technical09:15
froudwe are agreed09:15
enricofroud: however, the documents in the docteam are not necessarily a docbook version of the wiki: they have aims and targets09:15
enricoSo, not necessarily everything from the wiki fits in the repository09:15
ChrisHfroud: Why don't we just leave the wiki like it is and perhaps just tidy up some things. And otoh have a well-formed readable well-maintained document that we ship with Hoary?09:15
enricoThe wiki is good for taking material, but just when it makes sense for the currently edited documents09:16
froudOK but current documents are empty09:16
ChrisHfroud: Guess why. :)09:16
froudeverything sits in wiki09:16
enricofroud: almost empty, yes.  That's because most people proposed process changes instead of writing some contents into them09:16
ChrisHfroud: Because whenever people started to write something the concepts have been moved around.09:17
enricoAnd that's why we decided to take a break with process changes and just focus on writing09:17
froudOK I am focused on one thing only09:17
froudI want a book with Hoary09:17
froudthat's my goal09:17
enricothat's the easy target09:17
froudI hope it is the teams to09:17
enricoUser's Guide is the less easy target09:17
froudOK qg09:17
froudactually to me its the same thing09:18
enricofroud: I'm looking up for a better description of the quick guide09:18
enricofroud: hang on a sec09:18
froudenrico, not in label (name)09:18
froudlet me explain09:19
froudThe quick guide should be derived from selected sources already inthe user guide09:19
enricofroud: wait.  09:19
enricofroud: listen to me09:19
enricofroud: the quick guide has been designed during the docteam meeting at the conf09:19
enricofroud: I'm looking up the mail that describes it09:20
froudyes that is fine I am not proposong any change to it09:20
ChrisHfroud: The quick guide is something *completely* different than the user's guide.09:20
froudenrico, ChrisH, I have a way to kill 2 birds with one stone09:20
froudbelive me I am not sitting here burning my fingers without having given this some thought :-)09:21
froudbare with me09:21
froudI know I am pushing hard09:21
froudit is difficult to convey these things on irc09:22
enricofroud: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2004-December/000736.html09:22
froudbut I wantto discuss before I submit a proposal to the list09:22
enricoPlease read that mail (although it's not on the Quick Guide)09:22
froudOk, I just read it09:23
froudit does not change what I am saying09:23
froudthink technical09:23
frouddont think in terms of books etc09:23
froudthink XML09:24
froudThere is an amount of overlap between all books09:24
froudthey all are centered on the same subject09:24
enricoThey all talk about Ubuntu, yes, and they will probably overlap in the "What is the meaning of Ubuntu" part, but not in much more09:25
froudI see something different09:25
froudhold let me show you an example of a profile09:26
enricofroud: ..we..already..have..a..damn..idea..on..the..contents..of..those..books..09:26
ChrisHWait... I'll paste that into the channel. :)09:26
enricoHowever, that said, please go on09:26
ChrisHGood we have the irclog.09:27
ChrisHI'll send Mark a link to our conversation. That will get us all fired. :)09:27
froud<chapter id="introduction" condition="qg,ug">09:27
froudqg - quick guide09:27
froudug = user guide09:27
froudthe chapter introduction is marked for inclusion in the ug and qg09:28
froudtake ug out and it will only be inlcuded in the qg09:28
froudThis example for images09:29
froudan html and pdf file for each target09:29
froud<mediaobject condition="html">09:29
froud<imagedata fileref="images/evolution.png" format="PNG"/>09:29
froud<mediaobject condition="fo;short">09:29
froud<imagedata depth="8cm" fileref="images/evolution.tif" format="TIFF" scalefit="1"/>09:29
froud<mediaobject condition="fo;short">09:29
froudfo = xsl:fo09:29
froudshort = short version of a book09:29
froudI can have multiple books in a single set of files09:30
froudI can derive each book in multiple formats from those files09:30
froudTheefectis that all books are worked at the same time09:31
froudthe dev cycle is reduced09:31
froudyou can put priority on any book you like09:31
=== froud shuts up :-)
enricoI see09:33
enricoI don't think we have a need for that now09:34
enricoBut it's worth saving the idea09:34
enricoMight be useful for later on, when the set of documents we manage will be more complex09:34
enricoI suggest you wrap that up in a proposal and add it to https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeamWishList09:35
enricoAfter the first document finally gets finished, we can go through that list and take the good ideas to improve our way of doing things09:36
enricoBefore that, we should just do things, so that we can see if and how our way of doing things actually works, and where it needs to be changed09:37
froudso how do we know what can go into docbook and what cannot09:38
=== froud is focused on putting stuff into docbook, will not add to the confusion on wiki
froudare there sections that can move to docbook?09:40
froudenrico, what we do in docbook has little baring on what's happening in wiki, right09:41
froudI see a few nice sections on wiki that IMHO are ready to be used09:42
enricoSomething under http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ApplicationHowTos can probably be recycled for the QuickGuide, but paying lots of attention at the change in nature09:42
enricoThose are Howtos, the Quick Guide is a short intro09:43
enricoTo give you an example of the Quick Guide, take the "wget" manpage: you want to download an entire website, and someone tells you to use wget, right?09:43
froudOk, that's good I will make quick guide xml valid and well-formed09:44
enricothen you do "man wget" and you see all sort of options.  You get to the end of the manpage, and you still don't know how to download a website, although you know tons of ways to tweak the process09:44
froudyes I know wget :-)09:44
froudso you are saying that the howtos can be ported?09:45
enricoIf the quick guide had 2 pages on wget, it would say: "Wget is the tool to download websites.  To download a full website with wget, use wget --no-parent -l0 -r <website>.  If you want to browse it locally, add "-k"09:45
enricoThis is the idea.  Every howto can be mined for useful information, but the howtos are usually not laid out in that way09:46
enricoSo, probably few of them can be ported as they are.  But they can indeed be used for inspiration09:46
froudyes, they are designed for the mmore technical :-)09:46
froudman pages I mean09:46
froudOk next question09:47
froudhow to get the wiki sources in one go so I can labor :-)09:47
enricoALL of the wiki?  Uhm... dunno if that is at all possible :(09:48
froudHope you understand, the documents on this url are individual files do I have to manually copy paste09:48
enricoYes, I understand what you mean.09:49
froudonce I have the files I will have to find a parser that can help me in transforming this stuff to xml09:49
enricoProbably, the best option is to just start writing, keeping related wiki pages on one side just for referencing and inspiration09:49
froudwriting? It's already written I preffer to automate a port and then edit09:50
enricoYou'll probably find one or two wiki pages that are really ok without almost rewriting them, so it'll probably be faster to go on and write09:51
froudIm missing something09:51
froudyou want to hack out all the stuff and have just small snippets left09:52
froudyo, no wonder nothing is finished :-)09:52
froudHow do you propose to make short http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SSHHowto09:53
enricouhm... what many people are probably missing is that the main goal of the team is writing, not programming :(09:53
=== enrico loads ssh howto
froudfine but somebody must do the programming09:53
ChrisHWhat is there to be programmed?09:54
froudThe docbook application :-)09:54
enricofroud: we don't necessarily need programming at all: we're writing documentation, after all :)09:54
ChrisHDoing the framework and Makefiles can be done as we go.09:54
froudDocbook is an XML application09:54
=== ChrisH dreams of having all available documentation (from the chinese guy... can't remember the name) into a single document
froudits not trivial to do it right, otherwise everyone woul dbe doing it09:55
ChrisHfroud: You probably would like to screw DocBook/XML and write an own UbuntuBook/XML, right? :)09:55
froudDocbook is the standard for OSS09:55
enricoWell, our idea is to just take DocBook as it is and put contents between the <para></para>09:56
froudthe community knows docbook09:56
enricoSomeone else is taking care of improving DocBook for us right now as we speak, and we don't want to interfere :)09:56
ChrisHDocBook is as much standard for OSS as Microsoft Word is for letters.09:56
froudcan I have visability into this09:56
ChrisHde-facto... but still people are free to use what they like09:56
froudseems everyone is doing something but but there is little or no visability. Contrary to OSS09:57
enricofroud: what do you intend for visibility here?09:58
froudyou say somebody is doing something on docbook where can I see it09:58
enricofroud: in the DocBook developers websites :)10:01
froudenrico how did you apply my patch. there are files missing10:01
froudglobal.ent and xinclude.mod10:02
froudthese files are dependancies for the valid docs10:02
enricoI'll check 10:02
froudthey should be in /10:03
enricofroud: I forgot to svn add them after applying the patch: I've just committed them in10:05
enricodo an svn update and you'll find them10:05
froudOk thanks10:06
=== froud is away: Off doing something else
=== froud is back (gone 00:12:32)
=== ChrisH is still here (just so that everyone knows)
=== Cturtle [~Cturtle@a213-84-50-38.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #ubuntu-doc
enricoHello Cturtle!10:54
froudenrico, the about section of the user guide and quick guide are going to be the same right?10:55
enricoUh, not necessarily.  I imagine that the Quick Guide one will be much shorter10:55
froudThey have the same files and outlines at present, at least in the xml10:56
enricoHowever, for the user's guide things you should ask Hornbeck, and for the quick guide things you should ask plovs10:56
enricoYes, they have the same files because the quickguide has been started as a fork of the user's guide.  but the contents are not going to be the same10:57
froudok I will leave it as is10:57
sivangI'm here for a while, 'sup people?11:36
=== enrico goes making sushi
enricoThen it's dinnertime11:38
froudsivang, shalom11:40
enricoSee you later!11:41
sivangfroud: Boker tov froud  :)11:41
sivangI am heading towards the kitchen to grab something to eat, be back later..11:43
froudHmm all this talk about food is making me hungry11:49
sivangback :)11:55
froudIt's hot I think I will have a swim after lunch 11:55
ChrisHsivang: reshalom12:02
ChrisHI've just been to our cantina. No longer hungry. :(12:02
=== froud sinks teeth into turkey sandwhich
sivangChrisH: how's your dad?12:14
sivangI was terribly upset to hear what you told me last night..I hope he's ok now12:15
ChrisHsivang: No news yet. I hope the doctors tell soemthing useful today.12:15
ChrisHsivang: Well... he can't feel half of his body. I wonder why the hospital staff waited until today. Idiots.12:15
=== sid77 [~sid77@ppp-143-162.30-151.libero.it] has joined #ubuntu-doc
sivangChrisH: I just recently was shocked to find out, that doctors are not what I depicted when I was a child...12:16
sivangChrisH: the basically don't know shit, and can only probe with trial and error , recalling all the tests I've done and still feeling bad, they say "dunno"12:17
sivangChrisH: at this advnaced times when you have network packaets flowing on the airwaves you would think that they something with all this dvanced gear they have, but nada.12:17
=== froud is away: Off doing something else
=== cenerentola [~cenerento@] has joined #ubuntu-doc
enrico_dinnersivang: in these advanced times with network packets flowing, programmers still fix bugs by trial and errors as well, and they end up in saying "dunno" :(12:59
sivangenrico_dinner: hmm right...so guss dox should be no exception..:-(01:00
enrico_dinnerthat's also what physics do01:00
enrico_outgoing out.  see you later01:00
=== froud is back (gone 00:53:06)
=== jiyuu0 [~jiyuu0@] has joined #ubuntu-doc
froudenrico_out, kawabunga!!! when you get back please apply my patches for bugs 5008 [https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5008]  and 5012 [https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5012] . Thanks02:13
sivangfroud: yo02:16
sivangfroud: There is some problem with the user guide,02:16
hornbecksivang: morning02:16
sivangit won't open in yelp02:16
sivanghornbeck: hey john, 'sup buddy?02:16
sivangfroud:    <revnumber>&userguide-rev;</revnumber>02:16
sivang                                          ^02:16
sivang/home/pooh/devel/docteam/faq/faq/trunk/usersguide.xml:20: parser error : Entity 'userguide-rev' not defined02:16
sivang                <revnumber>&userguide-rev;</revnumber>02:16
sivangfroud: could you fix it so I would be able to view it in yelp?02:16
froudYes its a file that enrico somehow did not get into the lats pacth I gave02:17
froudwill submit a new bug and patch02:17
hornbecksivang: whos patch changed everything?02:17
froudFor now create a file called VERSION02:17
sivanghornbeck: patch to what? Our new patcher is froud :)02:18
froudType 34 as the content02:18
sivangfroud: this will fetch an older version from the repo?02:18
froudsivang, for some reason the VERSION file was not applied to the userguide patch. It's in the patch, but the file is not in SVN02:19
sivangfroud: ok, where should I create this file?02:19
froudsivang, no just reads the file called VERSION in the root of trunk/02:19
froudhello hornbeck 02:19
hornbeckfroud addings the VERSION file fixes it02:20
hornbeckeven a "touch VERSION" worked02:20
froudthat is correct02:20
froudsee global.entfor definition of the entity02:20
sivangfroud: didn't fix it for me..02:20
hornbecksivang: did you do it in the trunk directory02:21
sivanghornbeck: yes02:21
froudjust do touch VERSION in the trunk/02:22
hornbecksvn up and it should work02:22
froudthanks hornbeck 02:22
hornbeckman I am tired of writing code02:22
sivangfroud: ok, I put "34" as the content it faild - I just created an empty file, works.02:22
sivanghornbeck: what code are you writing?02:22
froudsivang, do rm VERSION02:23
froudthen do svn up in trunk02:23
froudsivang, hornbeck has the file in HEAD02:23
hornbeckI am writing a database that will hold customer information that can be retrieved off a client side window or over the internet but at the same time can be synced to a custom program on a palm02:23
hornbeckI am also writing the frontends02:23
hornbecksounds bigger than it is02:23
froudhornbeck, I have to big patches in bugzilla that you can apply ifyou feel like taking a break :-)02:24
hornbecklet me check them out02:24
hornbeckfroud: have you asked for commit?02:24
hornbeckfor you?02:24
froudno but it would help02:25
froudfor now I just patch02:25
sivangfroud: please discuss major non cosmetical changes over the mailing list if you get svn commit access :)02:25
froudyes, I understand that02:25
hornbeckman it is nice to be using linux right now :-)02:25
froudsure is;_)02:26
hornbeckI have been using OS X and windows for about two weeks straight02:26
froudsivang, all changes I do discuss. but mailing list is so slow. do people actually read it02:26
=== froud cringes
hornbeckI read it :-)02:26
froudsivang,  I realize I have to go careful on making changes if I am using commit02:27
froudhornbeck, r u on the user guide?02:28
froudworking on02:28
hornbecknot at the moment02:28
hornbeckI am not working on anything02:28
hornbeckjust trying to get my work for my job done02:28
froudHmmm, what's the plan to get User Guide rolling02:28
hornbeckI thought it was on hold till the quickguide was done02:28
hornbeckthat is what I was told02:29
froudso what's the plan to get the quick guide rolling? :_)02:29
hornbeckis it not?02:29
froudHmmm, can you help me decide on stuff that you think we can port form wiki to quick guide02:30
froudi.e finished stuff02:30
hornbeckI can but, I am not really sure what is being done in the quickguide right now02:30
hornbeckis nothing being added?02:31
hornbeckI  have not looked at it02:31
hornbeckgive me one sec02:31
froudnot much in the xml src02:31
=== sivang would like to raise attention to how we do stuff in the docteam :) non cosmetical changes should be discussed over the mailing list first as IRC Is not always the best accessible medium to all other contributors :)
sivangpreferably with more then 3 people02:31
hornbecksivang: I know this02:31
hornbeckbut I was not aware that the quickguide was not moving02:31
froudI count three people here. Dont worry I will not do anything crazy02:31
froudb'sides we can always role back to a prev revvvvvvv in svn02:32
hornbecksivang: it seems that in the beginning we got tons done because noone had to report to anyone02:32
hornbecknow we get nothing done because everyone disagrees02:32
froudhornbeck, OK I have created patches to make all the books valid and well-formed02:32
sivangfroud: add the versoin correction also :)02:33
hornbecksivang: I already did02:33
froudsivang, do rm VERSION02:33
froudthen do svn up02:33
froudin trunk/02:33
froudhornbeck, the files are now all ready to be hacked02:34
froudlet svn take care of the problems02:34
hornbeckyou got bug numbers?02:34
sivangfroud: doesn't work02:34
froudsivang, what does not work02:35
sivangfroud: sorry, works now.02:35
froudhornbeck, there is also 500502:35
froudbut please check it as it can break the build for other people02:35
froudI made two changes in 500502:36
froud1. path to use current link to docbook xhtml02:36
hornbeckfroud: 5008 is there anything you need to do outside a regular patch -p0 <02:36
froud2. chunk.xsl replaced with profile-chunk.xsl02:37
froudif people have old systems (i.e. without the current link) it will not work for them02:37
froudBy using the current/ we get a level of indirection from the version upgrades of the docbook xsl02:38
froudSo if everyone uses current, then if they upgrade their docbook-xsl package their build for ubuntu-docs will not break02:39
froudhornbeck, hope you understand :-)02:39
hornbeckso if they are on warty it breaks02:39
hornbeckam I following?02:39
=== sivang is a bit confused about this.
hornbeckbasicly I am getting, if you are up to date in Hoary you are fine02:40
hornbeckif not you are broke02:40
froudDunno does warty have file:/usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/current02:40
hornbeckwell is that  a correct statement?02:40
=== sivang appears to not understad froud last statement about the breakup.
froudfor most up-to-date distros this is true02:41
froudsivang, some older distros dont have docbook xsl inthe same place02:41
froudas the newer distros02:41
sivangok, so this guide will be only available on hoary?02:41
sivangor usabel on it?02:41
froudhornbeck, I thought of using XML catalog but then not everyone understand catalogs :-(02:42
froudsivang, it must work everywhere02:42
hornbeckfroud: alot of the docteam had never touched any of this stuff before now02:42
froudwe need a technical solution02:42
froudhornbeck, I understand this02:43
hornbeckfroud: you are sean wheller correct?02:43
hornbeckok, I thought so but like to make sure02:44
froudhornbeck,the hack solution is for people to create a current link to their docbook xsl in the location specified 02:44
froudthat way the build will just work02:44
hornbeckthat is 5005 right?02:44
froudhornbeck, yes02:44
froudhornbeck, but will they do it? or should I create a script to test version and if warty then create link02:45
hornbeckfroud: that is a question for the mailing list02:46
froudHmm yes. They will have to run it as su. Not good02:47
froudI posted this problem to thelist02:47
froudno comment as yet02:48
froudbut hen people dont seem to commnet on much on the list02:48
hornbeckdid you post it as a question or as  a "this will happen when"02:48
froudhmm goo dpoint what did I do02:49
hornbeckif it was not a  question it will go unanswered02:49
hornbeckask them like you just asked me02:49
froudhornbeck, enrico want sto speak to mako about this02:49
hornbeckI hate using pc laptops without a mouse02:50
froudyou use a mouse ?02:50
froudjust kidding02:51
hornbeckjust to click the pictures :-)02:51
froudhornbeck, have you ever tried http://gcc.gnu.org/java/ instead of J2SE02:52
froudto run Apache FOP?02:52
hornbeckI don't even have java installed on the server02:52
hornbeckat least I do not think02:52
froudI'm think of it as an alternative for the doc team to build PDF02:53
froudI do believe http://gcc.gnu.org/java/ is in the debian tree02:53
froudso there is no problem with distributing it02:53
hornbeckdo you mean gcj?02:53
hornbeckgcj, is alright02:53
hornbeckI have used it to build Eclipse02:53
froudcan we ship Apache FOP02:54
hornbeckI have no clue02:54
hornbeckhave you tried gcj with it?02:54
froudIn our production env I would like to try use gcj and apache fop to create PDF from xsl:fo02:55
froudnot yet02:55
froudon my list02:55
froudnot a high priority02:55
froudseems people are not hot for a pdf version02:55
hornbeckI have never used Apache FOP02:55
hornbeckI hate pdf02:55
froudOK :-) So how about those patches the big ones for now. can you apply them?02:56
hornbeckI am testing them02:56
hornbeckgive me a few02:56
hornbeckI am still switching between computers for work and this one02:57
froudI'll leave you to it. Let me know the outcome02:57
hornbeckwhat is the correct way to apply the patch for you02:59
froudJust apply the patch as normal why?02:59
hornbeck-p0 ?02:59
hornbeckits hanging up03:00
froudpatch 5008 is made on trunk/03:01
froudpatch 5012 is made on fq2/03:01
hornbeckworked that time03:01
froudwhere is it hanging03:01
froudthey are big:_)03:02
froudsorry about that03:02
froudnext patches will be smaller03:02
froudmuch smaller03:02
froudmy basic rule is that patches with the ext txt are on the directory level and contain diff for multiple files03:03
froudfile specific patches are filename.ext.diff03:03
hornbeck5008 seems to work fine03:03
hornbeck5008 is commited03:05
ChrisHbtw... wouldn't the trunk/parts not belong into a trunk/usersguide/parts directory?03:10
hornbeckthere is not a userguide directory03:11
hornbeckeverything is in the userguide directory actually03:11
hornbeckfaq is userguide03:11
froudhornbeck, 5008 IconUbuntu.png not removed ?03:12
froudhornbeck, " everything is in the userguide" I will sortthese things later03:13
hornbeckfroud: IconUbuntu.png not removed?  What does that mean03:13
froudhornbeck, for some reason IconUbuntu.png is not removed in my WC for quickguide/03:14
froudI'm sure I removed it03:14
froudI'm looking at r10303:15
hornbeckis it supposed to be removed?03:15
froudyes, we have this object in trunk/03:15
hornbeckbut quickguide will be moved out of userguide03:15
hornbeckso quickguide should have it itself03:15
froudhornbeck, they will remian in the same repos?03:15
froudthe object is global03:16
hornbeckfroud: it was asked for them to have seperate repos when they move03:16
froudor will be soon03:16
hornbeckunless that has been changed03:16
froudwhew that will increase the overhead03:16
froudIf they are in the same repo we have more flexability for reuse03:17
hornbeckI am not sure, maybe people changed their minds while I was gone03:17
froudI would like to see a folder for each book03:17
froudat present userguide is actually sitting in part/03:17
hornbeckthat would be nice03:18
froudthe userguide.xml should mv to the root of a folder called userguide03:18
=== froud thanks ChrisH
froudThe Makefile in trunk/ will have targets for all, userguide, quickguide, faq03:19
froudOh and dist03:19
hornbeckfroud: make the change and make a patch :-)03:19
hornbeckall sounds good to me03:19
froudgood thing saves me having to rewrite the makefile :_)03:20
froudhornbeck, two more things03:21
froudshould we have a trunk/images/ folder03:21
froudall docus will refer filref values to images/03:21
froud2. Common Objects03:22
hornbecktrunk/images would work I think03:22
froudItems like legal notice and common block texts of the project can go in trunk/common03:23
hornbecksounds good03:23
froudOK so I will create bug and assign to me and create patch and attach to bug03:23
hornbeckmake a patch and email the list about it03:24
hornbeckI will respond to the mail and let people know I support it03:24
hornbeckChrisH: can you do the same?03:24
hornbeckI have to get back to work now though03:24
=== froud thanks hornbeck
hornbecknice talking to you froud03:25
ChrisHhornbeck: as soon as I understand everything I'll raise my hand :)03:25
froudparts/old/main.xml "Editors: please move the contents from parts/old/*.xml into your appropriate sections and remove them here" I cannot find a bugzilla for this task, was one opened?03:49
froudwhat is the current status of this03:49
ChrisHI wrote that comment. And I believe that nobody has yet moved anything.03:52
ChrisHAnd I *hate* bugzilla. :)03:52
froudOK I will open a new bugzilla, it's the only way to keep track. :-)03:52
froudI dont care what isue tracker we use so long as people use one.03:53
froudotherwise people forget03:53
froudas people come and go from the project only bugzilla and the code remain03:53
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=== froud is back (gone 00:08:44)
=== enrico hugs hornbeck
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froudmaskie, howzit :-)07:33
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hornbecksivang: you around?11:04
sivanghornbeck: yes, 'sup?11:04
hornbeckyou don't want him to have access or you don't mind?11:04
sivangI don't mind :)11:05
sivangsorry if my email was bit cryptic11:05
hornbeckcould not figure out which you where saying11:05
hornbeckso do I need someone else to say they don't mind or go ahead and add him?11:05
sivanghornbeck: currently asking chrish , although I know he doesn't mind I want to make sure.11:06
hornbeckjust let me know11:10
sivanghornbeck: ok, on mine and his behalf - you can go with it :)11:19
hornbeckI am going to go ahead and add him than, as soon as he gets back11:20
hornbeckfroud: when you get here, please message me11:20
hornbeckso we can get you access to the server11:20

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